Women Talking About Their Dobbs Again (with Renee Bracey Sherman and Jen Perez)

This week is the one-year anniversary of the Dobbs decision, when the Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade. Politicians think reproductive freedom isn’t that big of a deal – “just a bunch of women, talking about their Dobbs again!” – but the truth is that women haven’t forgotten. We’re continuing to talk about it and share our personal stories, because those stories are how we connect with each other. We’re “heart-wired” to respond to them.

We’re joined by Jen Perez, Red Wine & Blue’s program director in Ohio. Jen tells her personal story about why she left her high-powered corporate job to get involved in politics, and the personal reasons that Dobbs motivated her to step up. Jen also shares some updates about the ballot measure to protect reproductive freedom in Ohio and how women across her state have been banding together to fight for their rights.

After that, Amanda sits down with Renee Bracey Sherman, the founder of We Testify, an organization dedicated to uplifting and telling the stories of people who have abortions. Renee discusses what it’s been like to lead an abortion storytelling organization in the wake of Dobbs and how she founded We Testify to make sure that people who have abortions don’t just have a seat at the table but a seat at every table.

Finally, Amanda, Rachel and Jasmine raise a glass to congressional aides, letters from camp, and celebrating half-birthdays in this episode’s “Toast to Joy.”

If you love this podcast and you want to help us bring more listeners into our community, we would love it if you could go into your podcast app and leave us a rating and review. We’re so grateful that you're listening and we would so appreciate your help to bring even more women into the SWP family. We’re stronger together!

For a transcript of this episode, please email comms@redwine.blue.

You can learn more about us at www.redwine.blue or follow us on social media!

Twitter: @TheSWPpod and @RedWineBlueUSA

Instagram: @RedWineBlueUSA

Facebook: @RedWineBlueUSA

YouTube: @RedWineBlueUSA

Transcript

The Suburban Women Problem - Season 3, Episode 25

Amanda Weinstein: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm Amanda Weinstein. 

Rachel: Vindman: I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Renee: I'm Jasmine Clark. 

Amanda: And you're listening to the Suburban Women Problem. 

This week marks the one year anniversary of the Dobbs decision, when the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. Since then, we've been talking about how that's affecting women across the country and how dangerous it is for us to lose our reproductive freedom. I'll get to share my conversation with Renee Bracey Sherman, the founder of an organization called We Testify. Renee's been called “the Beyonce of abortion storytelling,” so as you can imagine, we had a great conversation. And before that, we'll hear from Jen Perez, Red Wine and Blue’s program director in Ohio. Jen has been leading the charge to collect signatures for our ballot initiative to protect abortion rights here in Ohio.

But first, what have we been seeing in the news and what's been in our group chat?

Jasmine: So much.

Rachel: Oh, the news. It's overwhelming. 

Jasmine: I know. It's like I don't even know where to start y'all. I don't know if y'all saw the news. I think Rachel, you sent it, so maybe y'all saw, but once again, anti-Semitism rears its ugly head. And there was like this group of protestors waving Nazi flag in front of a synagogue–

Rachel: On Shabbat.

Jasmine: Yeah, on Shabbat. And it didn't… it's like, I do not understand. 

Rachel: I have to just read Jasmine's response in the text cuz it was so good. She was like, “I just can't figure out what type of existence people have that this is how to spend their time, resources, and money. Like why?” Just from a purely practical standpoint of like, if you have the resources, the time, the money to do this, travel, why are you going to these places and standing outside where it's hot? I mean, maybe this is your form of enjoyment there, but there are other ways.

Amanda: Seriously. Come make dinner. I've got three kids and they are hungry like all the time. Like I could use some like premade dinners, just like show up with some like mac and cheese. Like there are so many better uses of your time and I could think about 20 right now. 

Rachel: But it's, it is really, it is really disturbing that someone is willing to put that kind of time into hate. 

Amanda: It's a lot of effort. And not just them. So you have Vice investigated ties between Moms for Liberty and the Proud Boys. And Moms for Liberty had a newsletter where they quoted Hitler. Like, if you're quoting Hitler, you're on the wrong side. 

Rachel: It was also at their… a guy was doing an interview at their convention and he kept saying he was like, “Stalin knew it, Mao knew it, Hitler knew it. The way to control the future is to control the youth.” And the aspect of control is very interesting to me as a mom, as a mom who desires to have a degree of control that I don't have, not in all ways, but just sometimes I'd like to have a little control. 

But you, you have this other human being and the older they get, you know, with their thoughts, with their ideas, with their experiences that they're bringing into everything, I really think, and I've said this before, I really think where they are coming from this idea of control is that they feel out of control and they're upset that their children have more enlightened views than they do. Or they're worried that their children are going to have more enlightened views. So the idea of control is really about them never hearing a counterpoint that has compassion because that's gonna make the parents look pretty fricking bad. 

Jasmine: Yeah, I was just gonna say, there's a lot of memes that go around and the memes say something to the point of, you know, “one day someone's gonna ask, where were you when this was happening?” And I think right now we have reached a point where there are parents and grandparents out there that don't want their kids knowing about history because they're gonna have to answer that question and the answer's probably not gonna be pretty.

Amanda: That's a good point. If you think about it, there are grandparents out there right now who are alive during a lot of the stuff we did actually learn about. There are people alive right now who saw and were okay with some really bad stuff, and they're still voting out there and they don't seem to wanna talk about that stuff now. 

Rachel: It is… it's very difficult. I'm working on a writing project now where I'm having to take some time to examine some of the things that I was taught at a young age, whether I was taught them explicitly or implicitly. But what's very difficult about that is both my parents have passed away and three of my grandparents have passed away. The comforting thing to me is that I do have a grandmother that's still alive. She's very mentally with it, and she's almost 97, and we can discuss these things openly and she has changed her mind on so, so, so many things, which I've talked about on the pod before. She just didn't have any experience with anyone who was different than her, and she was taught horrible things. But it is very difficult. It is painful. It is really, really painful, but there is no excuse not to do it. That's the work that we all have to do if we're going to get to a better place, but I, I can appreciate that it's hard for people. I also don't think that's much of an excuse.  

Amanda: No. But you had the conversation, right? So you still had the conversation like, let's have these conversations and let's talk about this. Let's root out all of these things that we are just trying to cover up. 

And it's about the conversation of where you get to a better idea about a lot of things, which I feel we have done on Roe v. Wade since the Dobbs decision, where suddenly we, especially as women, are having these conversations of what has happened to us. And we do see the grandmas coming out saying, “Oh, we saw this. Yeah, we experienced this. This is not some place we should go to.” And you have Amanda Zurawski who came and said, “Look, I almost died because of the abortion laws in Texas.” And I know Red Wine And Blue had her on to talk about this, and she's been to the Senate to talk about this thing that happened to her. “The choices you made as politicians almost led to my death and will most certainly affect any future children I wanna have.” Because they would not let her have an abortion when she was already miscarrying.  

Jasmine: And her story is one that, while she is platformed and she's been able to tell her story, there are lots of other people with the same or similar story that just haven't had an opportunity to sit in front of Congress. Or some of them might not have even lived to tell their story, and that's another part of the story that we're not talking about, especially in places like Georgia where the maternal mortality rate is super high. Actually, it is unfortunately higher than some countries that we consider not as advanced as America. Yet here we are in Georgia, people are dying in childbirth, and these laws only make that worse. So yes, I love that Amanda Zurawski is able to tell her story, but I lament that there are some people out there that will never get to tell their story because they just don't have the means or the resources to get in front of the right people or because they did not live to tell it.

Amanda: That's such a good point. So the stories are important, but for the people who we don't have stories for, data can step in, right? We can look at data on maternal mortality, and we see in the data that maternal mortality is higher where you have stricter abortion laws. Infant mortality is also higher in places where you have more restrictions on abortion. They showed in a recent poll of OB-GYNs that said, in the wake of the Dobbs decision, that maternal healthcare is overwhelmingly negative. This is affecting women. This is affecting children. It doesn't work the way that a lot of people were told, right? This is healthcare. You might not like it, but it is healthcare for women, and this is affecting the healthcare of women right now.

Rachel: What bothers me about all of this is it's going exactly where we thought it was going to go, and women are being harmed and their lives are in danger, just as we said. And it, it doesn't seem to be getting any better. So I know it's not something that anyone wants to sit around and talk about, but these are the stories we have to tell. This is what we have to talk about in order to get people more comfortable to discuss it and to change the minds of the holdouts who still think this is really about being pro-life, because that is absolutely not the case and it's not. 

Jasmine: I just wanted to add to that. It's not about being pro-life. It's not about quote state's rights, as we've heard recently, because Republicans are trying to push forth a bill that will make it a federal ban after a certain number of weeks. Completely disregarding that a lot of anomalies and things like that can show up after that particular time. 

But also I think that the right is really hoping that we stop talking about it. That's why we have to keep doing it. They keep trying to say it's not gonna be an issue. And I'm like, it's definitely going to be an issue. This issue did not go away, you know, when they made these laws and when they did these things. More people are suffering. That is not good for your election or reelection. It's just not. Suffering doesn't help you. And so, you know, there's poll after poll after poll that says Americans on both sides of the aisle do not agree with the overturning of Roe. They do not agree with the Dobbs decision. And more and more people are starting to see the consequences of those. And this is one of those times where I wish I couldn't say I told you so, but we knew what was going to happen. 

Amanda: We all knew. It's almost as if people should have been listening to women all along, but they did not. So this is a great way to transition to our Troublemaker. So I'm excited to hear from our Troublemaker today. She actually wasn't able to join us for our recording session because the entire Red Wine and Blue Ohio team has been working super hard collecting signatures and they are all taking a much deserved vacation this week. But Rachel chatted with Jen on Friday to hear all about how the signature collecting has been going. And not only that, but about Jen's personal reasons for getting into this fight. I'm excited to hear all about it. 

Rachel: Today our Troublemaker is Red Wine and Blue’s State Director in Ohio. Jen Perez, thanks so much for joining me, Jen. 

Jen Perez: I'm so happy to be here. 

Rachel: You have a story that so many women in our community can identify with. You're a mom and you had never worked in politics before. Then something made you realize that you needed to get involved, and now you're our state director for Ohio. Yay. Could you tell me a little more about your journey from the corporate world to politics?

Jen: Sure. So in early 2022, I was kind of doing this juggling act that so many working moms know. My husband and I were both in really big corporate jobs that required us to be traveling often internationally. We were raising our then seven year old. But you know, from the outside I was living the dream. But the question is like, whose dream was it really? My days consisted of dropping off my daughter at before care so that I could go be in meetings for 10 hours straight, just to rush home to relieve the nanny so that we could like slap together a family dinner and then kind of collapse on the couch just to get up and do the same thing the next day. I was just feeling burnt out and I knew something had to change. So in April of 2022, I decided to walk away from the only company I had ever known. And I didn't have a plan. I just knew that what I was doing, where I was putting my energy, wasn't like filling my cup. 

On the day that the Dobbs decision was handed down, friends and people I've known throughout my life kind of came out of the woodwork, right? People were just reaching out and commiserating. We were talking about, like, how could this happen? How do we live in a country where our rights can be taken away just like that? After kind of that weekend of a lot of like raging and just venting, agood friend of mine said to me, she said, “Jen, you need to do something. Like you're not distracted by work and all these other things right now. So like, do something with this anger.” And she, I mean, she was absolutely right. It was, it was one of those moments where it was kind of like a slap across the face, like, wake up Jen. And to me it felt like the stars had kind of aligned in a weird way. You know, I was looking for, like, what am I doing next in my life? And it just seemed so obvious that I had skills that I had developed throughout my 20 year corporate career, and I could put them to good use to try to like, not just be angry about this, but actually do something about it.

I joined a Troublemaker Training and I was like, oh, these people are like speaking to me, right? They're trying to meet me where I'm at. So I started with organizing and then I took over leading the team in January. So it's been a crazy kind of 18 months from what I was doing then to what my days look like now, but super inspiring.

Rachel: That's amazing. I, I have to say that when Red Wine and Blue asked me about this podcast, I had been asked to do other things before and work with other organizations, but I just felt like it wasn't very authentic to me. It wasn't a good fit. And I also have to admit that I was intimidated by the other groups because, like, what did I have to offer? Right? So I really like Red Wine and Blue for the same reason. Because it felt like, okay, these are people who are trying to make a difference, but also doing all the other things that we all have to do. And it felt really genuine and somewhere where I could fit in. So I can completely relate to that.

And speaking of other things we have in common, I mean, as you mentioned, we're talking about the fall of Roe today. Like me, reproductive freedom is personal to you because of your journey with infertility. Could you tell us a little more about that journey? 

Jen: Yeah, so. In 2016 is really when our journey started. We had an 18 month old at the time who we had no problems with that pregnancy or anything and kind of assumed it would go the same way second time around. And after a few months of just trying to give our daughter a sibling on our own, it really wasn't working. So we started reaching out to doctors and long story short, we did seven rounds of IUIs, we did five rounds of IVF. And finally in October of 2018, we saw a positive pregnancy test. 

But fast forward 10 weeks later, we're in with an ultrasound at 11 weeks and hear that the baby has stopped growing. And I mean, as you know, 11 weeks, you're right on that threshold of when you start telling more people. Cause we're almost to the end of the first trimester. It was around the holidays. So again, just like all that anticipation of sharing this exciting news with everyone just crashing down. So that was devastating. 

And what made it even more difficult is that my body didn't recognize that the baby wasn't growing, so I was still producing all the pregnancy hormones. So about a week after we got the news, I went in for a D&C. And I was a mess. I mean, we wanted that baby so bad. My daughter had nicknamed the baby giraffe and I was just bawling, honestly, for days. It was just really hard, you know? And so many women have gone through that type of experience in their lives. So, you know, that's why this Dobbs decision hit me so hard because I can't imagine, on top of all of the emotions that we went through as a family during that time, also potentially being worried, like, would I be able to get the care that I needed? Would there be legal ramifications? You know, would I be arrested? It's just, I can't imagine piling that on. 

Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's already a very traumatic situation. And then to add more trauma and uncertainty and, you know, often medical issues as well. I mean, you know, sometimes this devolves into, you know, critical life and death situations. Well thank you for sharing that story. I know that was, it's hard to tell, but those are the things that activate us, if you will. You know, that cause us to want to get out there and make a difference. 

So this month you and other organizers in Ohio have been working hard, you've been working so hard, collecting signatures for a ballot measure to protect choice in Ohio. What exactly is the ballot measure about and how's the signature collection been going? 

Jen: Yes, we have a proposed amendment to our state constitution. It's called the Right to Reproductive Freedom with Protections for Health and Safety. And it includes the right for individuals to make and carry out one's own reproductive decisions, including it specifically calls out contraception, fertility treatment, miscarriage management, as well as abortion until the time of fetal viability. And one thing that I really like about the way the amendment is written is when it talks about fetal viability, it says, “as determined by a physician.” So it's not just an arbitrary X number of weeks.

Rachel: It's remarkable that this is even necessary. I mean, really it's, it's a sign of the times, let's just say, but it is a really well-written bill. I think you've pointed out a couple of things in it that are so good and so necessary. How, how's it been going to collect the signatures? 

Jen: Yeah, so it's been going really well. It's super inspiring to see women come out and be activated for this work. Yeah, our team has trained over 1100 volunteers in the state. Just Red Wine & Blue alone. And those women have been out there for weeks, since mid-March, collecting tens of thousands of signatures across the state, and our goal is to get 413,000 valid signatures submitted to the Secretary of State so that we will be on the ballot in November. So, we're really excited about everything. We actually just turned in our final signatures this week so that they can all get processed and counted and sorted and submitted on time. But super excited about the number of signatures that have been collected. 

Rachel: When I was in Ohio and I helped collect signatures at one point and it was great to hear so many women that we approached say, “I already did it. I did it in the carpool line. I did it here or here,” and it was just, it was really, really good because you knew that other people were out collecting signatures and working, and it really, you know, it was, it was really, really wonderful.

Thank you so much, Jen, for joining us. We just really appreciate you coming and sharing your story of how you came to this work, and it's so meaningful and we're so glad to have you at Red Wine and Blue and sharing your personal story about why this is so important to you and it means a lot. So thanks again. 

Jen: Thanks Rachel. 

Rachel: I really enjoyed talking with Jen because it's also personal for her and I, I love hearing the stories because it's my story as well. You know, that a personal event spurred someone to get involved. Just like we were talking earlier about examining and, and thinking about these ideas that we were taught from a young age and allowing ourselves to change our mind on things, we can also change our mind on what we do. You know, how we spend our time, how we focus. And you know, for Jen, for someone like Jen, this is her job now. I mean, activism, going from a corporate career and then using those skills and pivoting and using them for to, to make a difference. 

And I love what they're doing in Ohio. And again, Amanda, how do people in Ohio, how should we tell people in Ohio to vote in August? 

Amanda: I know, so they made it extra confusing. If you're in Ohio or know someone in Ohio, and let's face it, everybody knows somebody in Ohio, first we need to vote no in August. Because in August what they would like to do is change the bar to make it 60% vote of the people to pass something. That's a big no. And they did it really with the sole purpose of trying to prevent the November election. So first we have to vote no in August and then we get to vote yes in November. And the yes in November is we would like to maintain our reproductive freedom here in Ohio. 

Jasmine: Y'all should probably put that on a T-shirt. “No in August. Yes in November.” Because that is confusing. I was a little confused listening to it, and I'm not in Ohio.

Amanda: I know!

Rachel: That's the point kids. That's the point, right? 

Amanda: It is the point. I had my friends that own a sign company and I was like, “Hey, Mindy, Dan, we're gonna need some signs. No in August, yes in November.” They did make signs that day and yeah, and we got it. And it's hard cause the other thing is it’s in the summer, cause in the summer we're all like in vacation mode and it's hot and we're like, “let's go to the beach.” And they're like, “oh, no one's gonna pay attention.” Which they also said after Dobbs happened, no one's gonna pay attention.

Jasmine: I kind of like that they underestimate us though. It's cute in a way. They're like, “Oh, those women folk talking about their Dobbs again.” Meanwhile, we're out here organizing and you know, making shit happen and they just keep underestimating us. It's almost comical how much they completely do not understand the power of organizing and the power of pissed off women. Like, I don't get it, but whatever. 

Amanda: I love it. Alright, now we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back we'll have my interview with Renee Bracey Sherman.

BREAK

Amanda: Our guest today has been called the Beyonce of Abortion Storytelling. She's the founder of We Testify, an organization dedicated to representing people who have abortions and sharing their stories. She's also the producer of the documentary Ours To Tell and the co-author of the upcoming book Countering Abortionsplaining.” Renee Bracey Sherman, thank you so much for joining me on the Suburban Women Problem.

Renee Bracey Sherman: Hi. Thanks for having me. 

Amanda: Wow. So we have a lot to cover. Let's start a year ago when the Supreme Court, as we know, overturned Roe v. Wade. So as someone who's worked in abortion advocacy for most of your career, were you surprised or did you see it coming? 

Renee: I wish I could say that I was surprised, but I absolutely saw it coming. There were a lot of us who saw it coming and had been trying to raise the alarm about the fact that Roe could and would fall for many years. We had seen that even really since before I was born when they allowed the Hyde Amendment, which is the ban on federal funds being able to cover abortions. When that was allowed, that really meant that, sure you can have the quote unquote right to an abortion, but only if you can actually afford it. And we know that so many people cannot afford healthcare in this country. 

And since then they started chipping away at abortion access state by state constantly. And we were really concerned that, you know, they were eventually going to come for Roe if we had not actually dealt with the state restrictions, which our country did not. And it's really disappointing. It was very much, felt like a very slow-mo thing where we're like begging people to care about it and they sort of, didn't until the, the last minute. Which was, you know, like when the leaked decision came out and they saw, they said, “Well, there's still time to change that and to fix it.” And, you know, it's nice to hope that, but the truth is, that's what they'd been building towards for several decades. 

Amanda: Oh, I think that's interesting. Cause I think a lot of stuff does bubble up at the state and local level, and it doesn't always make it to the federal level until something kind of really big happens. And then when that big thing does happen, so I know a lot of politicos were like, “Oh, these women, they'll forget about it in a year.” And so I would love to hear your response to that. Have you forgotten? 

Renee: Of course not. I, I, they're still saying it, right? Because I think there was some audio that leaked a couple of days ago of Governor Ron DeSantis, who is, you know, the boy who thinks he'll be president. He’s been saying that people won't really care about his position on abortion. They care about all these other things, but I don't know. Find me an issue that people care about more than the ability to decide if, when, and how to grow your families. And your own body and what gets to happen to that. And whether or not people are talking specifically about abortion itself, I don't think anyone really wants the government being there telling you this is what your pregnancy or your healthcare should look like. This is what your family should and should not look like. People want the freedom to be able to decide that. Even if abortion is, is not their main issue, or you know, for the small percentage of people who, you know, consider themselves anti-abortion, they actually at the end of the day don't want the government telling people what to do. And so I think it is a really big issue. 

And I would also say that it's not just regular, you know, politicos who were sort of saying that this would go away after a year. This is something that we've been told for a long, long time. We had democratic politicians who were saying that abortion was a fading issue. And that, you know, it's, it's sort of an issue of grandmothers or, you know, a different generation. But I think it's really, really frustrating that they sort of pushed it off. People do really care about it. I think some people became complacent because they thought it was safe and because pro-choice politicians told them that it was safe and that they would be fine. When the truth of the matter was that they weren't fine. And that the politicians really hadn't been doing anything with the super majorities that they'd held to make sure abortion was safeguarded until it was the last minute. 

Amanda: So I, I also think that kind of plays in with what you do in your organization of being, you know, a storyteller about abortions and how this really affects our lives. So what have you seen from the stories that you've told? What are the real effects that this Dobbs decision has had across the country over the last year? 

Renee: I've been doing abortion storytelling work for well over a decade at this point. And it's something that has grown and over history, has ebbed and flowed based on the amount of stigma and how much people are allowed to talk about their abortions in public and how much they're shamed for it. But stories are the way that we connect. We know what's going on in our cousin's lives and our siblings' lives, our neighbors’ lives, through stories and listening to them and what they're going through and offering loving, caring advice and being supportive.

And I think that abortion stories are so critical because they're just one piece of that. We're hearing what someone is going through, the decision that they're having to make and, and all of the factors that are part of that. And then, why they're making the decision. And then we have an opportunity to show up for them. And so I think abortion stories are just so critical to that culture change work, but if they're allowed to flourish and if they're allowed to thrive. And I think that the stigma around abortion really tells people that you know, well, one, you shouldn't share your abortion story, and if you do, only certain stories should be told. Ones that evoke emotion or make people feel bad for you, or are, you know, socially acceptable reasons to have an abortion. Well, no. Every abortion story deserves to be heard and everyone deserves the space to tell it on their own terms. 

And I think that this moment has really been a catalyst for a lot of people who felt like, “oh, I don't need to share my abortion story,” or, “oh, that was a while ago, I don't need to talk about it. Access will always be here.” They're realizing like, “oh, I need to talk about it. I need to tell my loved ones. This is how much this access to abortion care mattered to me.” I know that when I've shared my abortion story, so many people in my family share theirs back with me and, and then it later means that people in my life come up to me and are like, “Hey. I'm pregnant.” And then I say, "How are you feeling about that? Are you telling me for a specific reason?” And sometimes they're like, “No, I'm really excited. I just wanna tell you.” I'm like, “Oh, that's great!” And then we can get excited about it. And then some people are like, “No, I, I want an abortion.” And I'm like, “Okay, let's talk through all of your options.” And I think a lot of that comes because I'm so open about my abortion and I think that that's something that can really grow the conversation. 

I also think that abortion stories in this moment are really helping to illuminate what people are going through. Whether it's having to travel across several states to get care because the care that they would normally receive is now a crime in their community, or it's self-managing at home with pills, which is incredibly safe. It's the same pills that you get from the doctor's office. You just don't need to take the first one sitting in front of a doctor. But it's, those stories help people understand that we can do this on our own, and it is really safe. The restrictions are just making it more and more difficult for people. So they're really putting some, some, some color to the experiences so people understand what's, what's at stake right now. 

Amanda: So a major focus of your work is on inclusivity in the reproductive rights movement, centering the voices of people of color, as well as trans and gender nonconforming folks. So what are some perspectives and stories that we're missing when we don't hear those voices?

Renee: I think that we're actually missing the story of abortion when we don't hear those voices. One of the things that I learned very early on in doing this work is that the majority of people who have abortions are people of color. The majority are already parents. The majority are, you know, living paycheck to paycheck and have had trouble paying for their abortions and have experienced financial, logistical, legal and cultural barriers to abortion. All of those things. The majority are religious, a lot of different religions and spirituality. And so when you tell. One type of story, one narrative. That means that you actually just get a one size fits all picture of who has abortions and why, and I think that, to me, that actually allows stigma to flourish. Because if you're like, this one type of person needs an abortion, you're negating everyone else that needs it. 

And I also think that when you have a diversity of those stories, you have a lot of people who get to talk about how we make sure care works for everyone. So when you have, like our trans storytellers talking about, “Yeah, here's how I was cared for at this clinic. They respected my gender identity. They listened to all that I had been through.” That's great because that means they're doing that for everyone. We all have a gender identity. Some of ours match the sex that we were assigned at birth and some don't. And so when we all get that care, it is huge for us when we all get the care. When someone who's a survivor of sexual assault deserves when they go into the doctor, all of us feel safer. When our race and our background and who we are, our languages, are understood and respected and catered to and cared for during our healthcare setting, that just makes everything better for all of us. 

And so I think that we need to move away from this idea of thinking that doing those things means other people get less. No. It's actually all of us get cared for better and you get a bigger picture of what's at stake. And so I think it's just really critical that everyone is part of it. When I first started sharing my abortion story, the only stories I saw in the news were of white girls, like white women were having abortions. And I felt so alone. I truly thought I was like the only Black person to have an abortion. Like me and Lil Kim. And then when I saw other people who looked like me talking about abortion, that really gave me the confidence that I needed to be able to do the work that I'm doing. And so I wanna continue to grow to support people to do that, because you could never have too many abortion storytellers.

Amanda: I love that the leadership in what you're doing is, I feel like for decades women are told to fit into this mold and you have to have the right talking point, right? And you're like, “no, I'm not looking for the right talking point. I'm not looking to PR this or message this. I'm just looking for the stories that are real.” And that is what, you know, women and people connect to, as you said. Cause we connect to those, those stories.

Renee: We’re “heart-wired,” as they say. 

Amanda: Oh, I like heart wired. Oh, I'm gonna have to take that one. I'm gonna steal that. I'll cite you though. 

Renee: I didn't come up with it! Someone really brilliant did. But it's, it's really wonderful to think about how we connect building with one another in that way and that connect heart to heart that you can't message test love and compassion.

Amanda: Yes. So you recently wrote that when you founded We Testify, you wanted to do leadership differently and make sure that people who have abortions not only had a seat at the table, but a seat at every table. Could you tell our listeners more about We Testify and what makes it special? 

Renee: I think what makes us special aside from that we are a hundred percent staffed by people who have abortions, is that our mission is really just to make sure that people who have abortions are heard and loved and supported. Because society just really tells us that, I don't know, we ain't shit. And we're not, we're not to be heard. And we're somebody to like, you know, feel bad for, or a figment of your imagination. This idea of someone, and not necessarily a person that you know or yourself. We say everyone loves someone who's had an abortion. And we say that to remind everyone that people who have abortions aren't this, this mythical creature that comes out when politicians wanna debate an issue. We're real people who need access to care and we might be you.

You might be like me, where I just like buried it and didn't wanna talk about it until I needed to. And I felt and found freedom after I was able to talk about it so openly. And so with that, we wanted to build the leadership of people who have abortions through our programming, but in particular, make sure that not only do we have a seat at the decision making table, but… when I first started doing abortion work, I found that I was either like the only person at the table who had had an abortion or the only one who was willing to be open about it. And so a lot of decisions were being made about messaging or policies or whatever without the very people that they're impacting at the table. And I found that that was just not acceptable to me. And as Angela Davis says, “change the things that you cannot accept.”

And then the other piece of it is that it's not just about being at the table, but every single table. And to me that speaks to the stigma. They sort of think about, “oh, okay, we'll talk about abortion when it's time to talk about abortion,” but we should be talking about abortion access in every aspect, in every issue. It should be part of the general conversation about healthcare. As we're talking about labor rights, you should be talking about abortion access. Do workers have time off to be able to have an abortion? Can they afford it? Does your insurance cover it? Miscarriage too. Like all of these things. When we're talking about economic justice, it's an economic justice issue. Are people saying, “yes, I would like to have another child and I can't afford to have another child”? Cause we know that people are having abortions because they cannot afford to have additional children. And so, you know, really literally any issue, it is connected to our bodies, our freedom, all of these things. And so I think that you should be having people who have abortions at every single table.

Amanda: Oh, that is really interesting. That when you're thinking about workers' rights, women are workers. 

Renee: What a concept!

Amanda: I know! We need a lot of freedoms to be, you know, effective and productive workers. And if we're not at the table and we're not, you know, telling our own stories, then what's gonna happen is someone's gonna tell our stories for us. And oftentimes what we see, you know, what happens is they tell our stories is, you know, “oh, they're just irrational, flighty women who suddenly change their mind of, I want a baby, no I don't.” We’re like, “Well, why don't you let us tell our story ourselves?”

So most of our listeners are already pro reproductive freedom, and many of them are already helping with ballot initiatives, protesting at their state capitals, or talking with their friends about abortion. But I bet there's something we're missing, something meaningful we can do, but don't realize it. So how can we diversify or level up our work on abortion rights? 

Renee: You know, my favorite one is to say the word abortion. I think it's really, really critical. It's something that doesn't cost you any money, it's not gonna take any extra of your time, but use the word abortion. I don't think people realize that this is like an unintentional stigma that they're perpetuating, right? Because when somebody who supports abortion doesn't use the word, that removes it from the conversation and assumes that there's something dirty about the word. And then the only people who do say it are the people who are anti-abortion. And then the people who need abortions feel like, “oh, maybe it's something that I shouldn't be having and I can't talk to you about, because you don't wanna use the word.” So I would say a big one is just use the word abortion. It's really, really big. 

Amanda: Wow. I've never 

thought about it that way, as it can be very stigmatizing. Just not to say abortion. 

Renee: Yeah. Just not to use the word. And I think, and of course, just like be there for the people in your life who need abortions. Be ready to support them. Know where your local clinic is, your local abortion fund, how far along your local clinic goes and where are all your stopping points so that if someone you love comes to you and it's like, “I need an abortion,” you could say, “oh, I actually know all of the information.” Just knowing all of that information, you may never need it. But maybe you will or someone you love might need it. And so just having it there feels really, really critical. 

I think of it as like, remember when they taught us in school, stop drop and roll? I mean, I've never been caught on fire. But I do know stop drop and roll. I know where the nearest fire station is. I know how to call the fire station. I know all of the things. I know how to get outta the house. Right? I know all of those things. Know this about abortion for yourself and for the folks in your community and your loved ones.

Amanda: That's a good point. We were definitely taught stop drop and roll, but I was not taught, and I thought my sex ed was pretty good, but now that I think about it, we weren't taught what a real abortion was. 

Renee: Oh, abortion's always left out of sex ed.

Amanda: Yes. Oh, that's true. I did not learn like what it actually was. So, you know, I heard many crazy untrue horror stories about, about what it actually is or is not. 

Alright, this has been so great talking to you, but before we let you go, we always ask our guests a few rapid fire questions. Renee, are you ready?

Renee: I am ready. 

Amanda: All right. So your work is so influential, you were called the Queen of Abortions by a right wing website. That's a great title. I hope you're happily wearing that crown, but if you were to crown yourself the queen of anything else, what would it be? 

Renee: Let's go with the Queen of Saunas. I love saunas. I'm a big sauna girl. 

Amanda: Oh, me too, yes. Now I wanna go in one of those. That sounds great. All right. What's your favorite movie from your childhood?

Renee: The Little Mermaid. 

Amanda: Have you seen the new one? So good.

Renee: Yeah. And it's, oh, I'm gonna start crying now. I cried. My aunt took me when I was four and I got to take my cousin's daughters, they're eight and four, my cousin and our other cousin and her son all went and we all dressed up and it was, it's so beautiful. It's absolutely so beautiful. I loved it. 

Amanda: Loved it so much. Oh, highly recommend. All right. What's your favorite place to travel? 

Renee: Ooh Sweden. 

Amanda: Ooh, never been. 

Renee: Yeah, I have a friend from grad school who, we've been friends for so long, I go visit her in Sweden and that's where my love of saunas comes from.

Amanda: That makes sense. 

Renee: That has been my happy place. Yes. I love Sweden.  

Amanda: All right. That is the end of our rapid fire questions. Where can people go to find out more about you and your work? 

Renee: Yes, I mean, visit our website, wetestify.org, and follow us on social media. On Instagram we're @WeTestify, same thing on Facebook, and then on Twitter we're @Abortionstories, and then you can find me on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook as Renee Bracy Sherman, or RBracySherman on Twitter.

Amanda: Awesome. That was so great. Renee. Thanks for joining us on the Suburban Women Problem. 

Renee: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

BREAK

Rachel: Welcome back everyone. Okay, Amanda. I think the theme for this episode is personal stories and the power of personal stories, and now I am going to be using the term “heart-wired” because it's just so perfect. I love that we are heart-wired to respond to other people's stories. I know how hard it is to share your personal story because… you don't wanna feel like you're sharing something that's so personal, for it to be trivialized. And it's scary. 

Jasmine: Yeah. It's scary, sometimes embarrassing… 

Rachel: So many things. It is. And it can be like lots of those things and lots of those reasons why we don't want to, and that makes perfect sense. Do not do anything that you don't wanna do. But I can tell you after you do it the first time and people share it, it really is meaningful to so many people. It really gives people hope. 

I can just think of this past weekend, two things. Richard Lewis, who is an actor, he's been on Curb Your Enthusiasm, I think my husband met him through that and he shared a story that he's also battling Parkinson's. And you know, I saw the responses to that. It was just so powerful and it reminded me how powerful personal stories are because you're like, you see someone, you see them all the time and you see they're dealing with the same things that you are or they have dealt with this thing.

And so much of the stuff about reproductive freedom really comes down to things that cannot be controlled and that's why it's so important that we're willing to share our personal stories. Even if it's with like your closest friends, that's all you're comfortable with, it will still make a difference. And mean something to them.

Amanda: I love that. And those stories make you realize that it could happen to you or someone you know, or your daughter. Or your friend. Or your neighbor. And it makes you feel it more that could happen. And I love that term, heart-wired. 

So I already know they actually have research, I tend to be a more data researchy person, but there is research that the data can get people to believe you, which I want people to believe me, but then they're gonna forget, right? If you don't tell that good story, if you don't have that personal connection, people are gonna forget whatever it is, the great thing I just convinced them of, right? So you have to have those stories that, I love that term, that we are heart-wired to connect to those stories. 

And we remember them. We all remember the story of the 10 year old in Ohio who had to go to Indiana because she was denied an abortion. We remember that. Right? And we have data that says, right, that lacking access to reproductive freedom puts women in danger. It puts infants in danger. But that story makes you really feel it. We are heart-wired for those stories. I just love that term. 

Jasmine: It also, telling those personal stories, and Rachel, you kind of alluded to this, can also remind you that you are not alone. So if it did happen to you, you now are heart-wired to connect and realize that you are not dangling on a branch by yourself. There are other people in community with you. And I think that's important too. 

Rachel: Yeah. 

Amanda: Alright, so we gotta end on our toast to joy. Jasmine, what is your toast to joy today?

Jasmine: So we are recording this on the 26th and so today is officially my 40 and a half. Birthday. 

Rachel: Ah, yes! 

Amanda: So do you usually get a cupcake or anything? 

Jasmine: Oh, I'm having a whole party. 

Amanda: Haha I love that!

Jasmine: The reason why is because my birthday is December 26th, so it's the day after Christmas. And here in Georgia we experienced some record breaking cold temperatures. It was about 11 degrees on the day I planned on celebrating my birthday, and so I was like, “Hmm I don't really feel comfortable asking my friends to come out in 11 degree weather. Like I honestly don't even wanna go out in 11 degree weather.” So I said, “you know what, I'll just do something very low key.” So I just did like a, a simple dinner and it was you know, it wasn't really big, but I was like, this is my 40th birthday. So I decided that I would make a point to celebrate my 40th and a half birthday, just this one time. This is not gonna be like a tradition or anything, but the older I get, the more important. I feel like it is to kind of celebrate life because I'm starting to get to that point where I'm losing friends and I, you know, I think it's important. 

Rachel: It is very important.

Amanda: Oh, I think this is gonna be a new tradition, and I'm here for it. 

Jasmine: All right. So Rachel, what's your toast to joy?

Rachel: It's a little small, but our daughter, Ellie, is at camp and in past summers we've only received one or two letters from her, but so far in two weeks I've received three letters.

Jasmine: Oh, wow. 

Rachel: I mean, I might not receive any more in the next two weeks, I don't know. And this could be attributed to the fact that I never gave her labels or helped her practice writing our address before. So some of them might have gotten lost in the mail, but mostly I think it's because she's more comfortable with writing. She's writing to me. She's sharing her feelings more and her experience more. I'm so excited. 

I don't know if you guys do that, like USPS, like daily delivery, where they scan all the mail you're getting for the date? So I check that every morning and when I see I'm getting a letter from her, I'm just so excited. And last week I got two and it was delivered on the 20th, because the 19th was a holiday for Juneteenth. And so, and the mail didn't come until super late. I must have checked the mail, like, and I'm not exaggerating, like 12 times. All afternoon I kept going out there to check. My neighbors were like, what is wrong with her? Anyway, my toast to joy is to letters from camp that are happy and communicative. 

So Amanda, what is your toast to joy this week? 

Amanda: My toast to joy today is to Leah Bruno, who is Casey's legislative aide, and she helped organize a trip for all of my girl scouts to come to Columbus and visit, yes, Casey, but also Minority Leader, Alison Russo, Rep Latyna Humphrey, Rep Michelle Grim, Rep. Munira Abdullahi, who's the first Islamic woman to serve in the House, and State Senator Christina Rohner. And we even got a personal meeting with the Governor who took time out of his cabinet meeting discussing budget issues to come say hi to my girls and point out the desk that Lincoln sat in and all of the signatures of the governor in the drawer. It was very cute. 

So my toast is to especially Leah Bruno, but also all the legislative aides. Thank you for all of the work you did for the Girl Scouts and everything you do behind the scenes to make everything run in Columbus. 

So thanks so much to everyone for joining us today. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you could go into your podcast player and hit follow or subscribe so you don't miss a single episode. And while you're there, we'd so appreciate if you could give us a rating or review. It's the best way to support the show and help other listeners discover it. We're so grateful that you're listening today, and we would love your help to bring even more women into the Suburban Women Problem Family.

Thanks again, and we'll see you next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.