Rachel: Hi everyone. Thanks for listening. I'm Rachel Vindman. 

Jasmine: I’m Jasmine Clark. 

Amanda: I’m Amanda Weinstein. 

Rachel: And this is The Suburban Women Problem. Welcome everyone. Thanks for joining us. On today's episode, we're going to talk about misinformation and how we deal with friends or family who have bought into QAnon on or other conspiracies. We'll be speaking with Lisa Reese, who has been dealing with this firsthand as she lost her relationship with her sister because of right-wing conspiracies. And speaking of QAnon, we're going to be talking about the Senate's decision not to have a January 6th commission. 

But before we talk about anything else, we wanted to acknowledge that we recently passed the one-year anniversary of George Floyd's death. So… what does that feel like one year on, guys? 

Jasmine: You know, I can't even believe it's been a year. First of all, so much has happened. So many emotions, you know, we had the trial and all the emotions that went with that, and we are still… still… asking for Congress and the Senate to act when it comes to policing in the United States.

And as a state legislator, I know that here in Georgia, we have also been looking at ways to reform policing, but it's been largely pretty difficult to accomplish anything. And so that part has been frustrating. You would think after a year of protests and after a year of, you know, just dealing with this and other incidences that we would finally see and have the political will to do something. Yet here we are. 

Amanda: I feel that frustration because it's not that we don't know what solutions are out there. It's not that this problem is new. It's not that there's no research on this. We actually have decades and decades of research of cost-effective ways that can actually make us more safe.

But you're absolutely right. It comes down to political will. For some reason, the political will isn’t there, or the conversation is just stopped because you hear “defund the police” and then that's where the conversation ends. 

So I was reading a story about… it was Fayetteville, North Carolina, where the police chief actually said, “you know what? We're going to stop pulling people over for non-moving violations. It just isn't making us any safer.” So this was controversial. His police officers were not for this change when he did it. But since he's done it, they have stopped searching as many black people because they know it's discriminatory. They've actually instead focused their attention more on moving violations, things like running red lights and speeding. So they actually found fatalities went down. People were more safe in this town. They're not spending their time on these non-moving violations— like, you know, are your permits expired? Or, you know, is your tail light out? There is so much out there that can address safety that we just seem unwilling to talk about. 

Rachel: Why do you think that is? Why are people so unwilling to discuss these things? To have these conversations? 

Amanda: I feel like you hear “defund the police” and the conversation stops, but really, I find that offensive as a taxpayer. I think there are no taxpayer dollars that are somehow above taxpayer scrutiny. So we should be able to have the conversation of how can we most effectively and fairly use these tax dollars. No one should feel above that conversation. 

Rachel: That’s a really great point.

Jasmine: When black people have a complaint about something, when black people ask to not die or to not be killed at the hands of the state, when they just ask for, you know, equal protection under the law, it oftentimes sounds like—or it's received as—us asking for something more than everyone else's asking for. And us complaining and us having a victim mentality and they're like, oh, well, what about black on black crime? If you're killing your own, then how can we expect you to respect others? That is actually a paraphrase from a state representative who literally said that this week in committee in Georgia. And so, you know, he said it out loud, but the truth is there are a lot of people who think that way. And so when it comes to us, a lot of times we are not given that benefit of the doubt that what we're asking for is something that is actually needed or necessary. When a black person is killed by police, the first thing that the media does is dig up their history to find some reason to justify why it's okay that they're dead. And we just don't do that with other groups. 

Amanda: No, you're, you're exactly right. I think we have a huge empathy problem in this country. There's a woman from my life growing up, who I looked up to very, very much as a woman of faith, a woman of conviction. And to see the things that she posted about people of color after George Floyd died was life-changing for me. She was someone I looked up to actually for her faith and to see her so callously talk about any life because of the color of their skin (or because it was lost in COVID is another one, right?) I still to this day cannot wrap my brain around how someone can say they value life but then there are exceptions to that.

But as devastating as that was for me, I also saw a lot of women who heard this call when they heard George Floyd call out for his mom. Like there's something in every mom that heard that, I think. There was something in you where you could picture your kid. And I think a lot of women were able to empathize where they heard that “mom.” And they heard their kid, whether their kid is white or black or what color they heard that call. And I think a lot of women stepped up and said, “that's enough. We cannot let this happen to our sons, to our daughters. This cannot happen to our children.” And there have been women that have stepped up because they heard that call.

Jasmine: I don't like when people say like, “oh, because of George Floyd, we are able to do X, Y, and Z” because that completely negates the fact that he should still be here. He should not have suffered the way that he suffered. At the same time, I recognize that there are times in our history where something switches, something causes something else to happen. And I think George Floyd calling out to his mother moments before he passed away, that he wanted his mom… that spoke to some people that may not have been listening before. 

People put themselves in factions. You're either pro law enforcement or anti law enforcement. And if you support the police, then you don't support the George Floyd Justice In Policing Act. But that's patently false. If you actually support law enforcement and you actually read the meat of this issue and read the meat of the bill and actually see what the bill says, it is very supportive. We always talk about, “it's not all police, it's the bad apples.” So let's get rid of the bad apples.

Amanda: Bad apples spoil the bunch.

Jasmine: Exactly. And so that's what I see when I see the George Floyd Justice In Policing Act, but we've got to get more people to understand that. Cause right now it's literally been whittled down to as simple as either you support law enforcement or you don't support law enforcement. 

Rachel: You know, speaking of legislation, I for one was very, very disappointed in the Senate vote of 54 to 35 to not have a commission into the attempted insurrection on January 6th.

Amanda: We have a trustee in Ohio who, in committee, was blaming Antifa and on his Facebook page, blaming Antifa for January 6. Even though he was there. He was there! This GOP member trustee in Ohio was at the event on January 6, then went to his public Facebook page to blame Antifa, and doesn't want there to be an investigation because he knows good and well who was there. He was. His friends were. 

I don't know if you guys have seen it, but the New York Times has cell phone data and you can track those little green dots as those little green dots go from Trump's rally and they go down to the Capitol and they can track those green dots. And they know whose phone that green dot belongs to. The reason why they don't want the investigations because they already know who was there. It wasn't Antifa, it wasn't Black Lives Matter. It was virulent Trump supporters. 

Jasmine: Right. And I think it's very interesting and timely, because we just talked about policing, right? And supporting law enforcement. “Support the thin blue line, support law enforcement, back the blue.” And “Oh, by the way, we just killed Capitol Police.” And like, did you see the videos of how they were treating them? Like this was… I just don’t, I just don't understand it y’all, I just really don't. 

Amanda: No. And these are the same people who wanted investigation after investigation is to Benghhazi, right? But this happened in our nation's Capitol and you want no investigation? This happened in our nation's capital, the heart of our country, our constitution, our democracy, and suddenly now they want no investigations? Okay. We see you. 

Rachel: There seems to be an incredibly low bar with information that's out there. It doesn't have to be plausible. It doesn't have to be sophisticated in order for it to be consumed. You know, I think we can all agree, we have a problem with QAnon. But what I find interesting about QAnon are the people, the victims of it, the regular people. Not so much the backstory. 

But what really is QAnon? In case someone is lucky enough to not know what QAnon is, we need to start by defining it. QAnon, or Q, began on a far right message board where an account with the username Q started posting with claims of being a government insider on a mission to expose the “Deep State,” which they claim is a secret shadow government left over from the Obama administration.

Q claims the “Deep State” is responsible for everything from running a child sex trafficking ring out of a DC pizza parlor—or Pizzagate, you may have referred it referred to as Pizzagate—to rigging the 2020 election against Donald Trump, also known as the Big Lie. It sounds comical when you say all of this out loud, I know, but people really believe this stuff. They believed it enough to storm the Capitol on January 6th. But it doesn't take believing in the entire Q narrative to lose a friend or family member to far right. Conspiracy theories and like any cult, it can be hard to reason with people. 

Amanda: Yeah. So I have actually not talked to my biological father in over 12 years. I don't think it's a moment, but it’s just come step-by-step and it comes so gradually. You can't see it until you realize they're too far gone. And for him, this confluence of politics and religion… because all wrapped up in here is deep-seated, you know, Trump's support with evangelicals was huge, right? So it's this confluence of politics and religion, that is just inseparable that really, really sucked him in. 

He just started telling me I was going to hell and him having a relationship with me was basically the equivalent of him denying his religion. And it just, it just kept spiraling and spiraling. And I saw where it was going and there just didn't seem to be a way out. So he's never met his grandchildren. He's never laid eyes on them. He's ever talked to them. It's really hard. People on Fox news and Q, they don't care. They don't care if there's a guy out there who's never talked to his grandkids. They don't care what that does to his daughter to be like, oh, my dad actually doesn't care about me or his grandchildren because he cares more about QAnon on conspiracies. They don't care. They don't care what it does to family. They don't care what it's going to do to our country. They just see the power and want the power. And that's all that matters. 

Rachel: I’m very sorry that you've had that experience. That it's really harsh. What about you, Jasmine? I'm sure you've had some Q encounters in Georgia. 

Jasmine: I have received some pretty scary emails from some of my constituents and from people who really, really believe this stuff. Ironically, they view me as a threat to democracy. And so this has led to some of my colleagues literally getting death threats and having to have security and having to move their family to secure locations while things get worked out. It's led to me having to have the police patrol my home at random times because one person has decided that they're going to give out our personal information as far as our addresses and things like that.

It's scary being in political office, wanting to do the right thing for all of your constituents, but also understanding that there are a subset of people they don't care about the truth. They only care about what reinforces what they believe. 

Rachel: Sure. I think that's really true. I know my experience with QAnon is essentially that… I don't know anyone who's deep into it, but I definitely know people who were friends of close members of my family who have suggested that maybe we don't know Alex the way we think we do and that he is a member of the Deep State. And it hurts to think that people who've known me my whole life think that that's where we are. But as you said, it's easier for them to believe this than it is to face the facts that maybe what they're hearing from people who desperately want to manipulate them is not true. 

But I honestly can't imagine… you know, my experience is very tangental. I can keep it on the borders. But I can't imagine how painful it would be to lose a loved one to this kind of conspiracies. I look forward to talking to Lisa, someone who has certainly dealt with this issue firsthand. 

Lisa Reese, welcome to the podcast! So first of all, Lisa is a moderator for Red Wine and Blue’s Facebook group SWEEP- Suburban Women Engaged Empowered, and Pissed. She does great work for us. So thank you for that, Lisa.

But the reason we have you here today is to talk about the heartbreaking loss of your relationship with your sister, because she became indoctrinated into QAnon. Could you tell us about your sister and what happened? 

Lisa Reese: My sister is brilliant and talented. And then COVID happened. And so she was looking for somebody to give her an answer that wasn't so scary and I just watched her change.

Rachel: So this happened pretty quickly then? 

Lisa: It did. And she didn't vote for Trump. She didn't vote. But all of a sudden, I watched her social media during that period of time, it was all really started getting political. She started talking about sex trafficking and,… you know, I speak to her children, her two children, her two younger children stay in contact with me. And they’ve actually been the ones that have told me that it's been QAnon.

Jasmine: All of this sounds like it's really difficult to deal with. And I understand your concern for your sister, but I think self care is also really important. Because this has got to take a toll on you, even though you're not necessarily the one that has been lost to Q. 

Lisa: You know, this would be so much easier if we'd have fought. The last thing she said to me was “love you." For me, I send her messages. I know she's not getting them. Someday, she'll turn that back on. And hopefully she'll get those messages. It's unfathomable that I haven't spoken to her, that I haven't heard her voice in a year. 

Rachel: I’m so sorry. I hear the pain in your voice and it's breaking my heart. I wish I could give you a hug cause I am so sorry. But I think by sharing your story, I really do think you're going to help a lot of people because this is happening to a lot of families. 

Lisa: I don't know what theory or, or, idea is more important than a person. Than people and families. You know, I hope that somebody figures out how we get our family members out of it.

Rachel: Right. I think you said that very well, Lisa, and I just really want to thank you for joining us today. I do absolutely think that you sharing your story is going to really resonate with people and it's going to be helpful. So thank you for being with us. 

Lisa: You’re very welcome. 

Rachel: Coming up after the break is my interview—I think it was more of a chat, actually— with Connie Schultz. Connie is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and author, and the wife of Ohio Senator Sherrod Brown. She is so wise and funny and I had so much fun talking to her. So make sure you stick around.

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Rachel: Connie, thank you for being here with us and joining The Suburban Women Problem. It’s quite an honor for me and I'm very happy to have you.

Connie Schultz: Well, the feeling couldn't be more mutual, Rachel. It's great to at least see you somewhat in person, right? At least face to face. 

Rachel: So speaking of that, I saw recently you got to see your grandchildren and your kids for the first time in a long time. So how was that? 

Connie: I don't really have… although I'm a writer, I don't really have the words for it. My daughter, when I traveled to New England to see two of them, my daughter's two, and I didn't know that my daughter was recording it. When they came out of their preschool, they knew I was coming. They had been told that morning and they giggled and laughed the entire time it took them to get to me. And I just fell to my knees. I didn't want to let go. So it's a wonderful thing. It's been 16 months. We have eight grandchildren, so it takes a while to make the rounds, but it didn't take me long!

Rachel: As soon as we were able, I, um, and I hope everyone has that opportunity because I was recently got to see my grandmother in person and it was just so, so special. And to get together with my brothers for the first time in 16 months. So I can completely relate. And we had a niece who was born on Alex's birthday last year, so we got to meet her when she was nine months. 

Connie: We had a granddaughter born during the pandemic, so I met her at four months. I could go on but I'll stop. I've become that grandmother I used to mock! So there you are. 

Rachel: Well, I hope everyone has the opportunity to become that grandmother. I think it's beautiful.

So, I mean, it's great that we have, you know, good things to look forward to and exciting things in our lives. But I know you and I are part of a special club as someone whose husband has also been a target of Trump. And I continue to worry about Alex and sometimes our entire family. You know, you were one of the first people that I thought of on January 6th and I saw some of your tweets…. I really can't imagine what that was like. Can you describe that a little bit for us? 

Connie: Well, I tweeted it as you may recall, once I knew that Sherrod was safe. Because I was really trying to telegraph to all the journalists who were reaching out to me that I couldn't tell them where they were heading, but I knew that they were safe after 40 minutes of not knowing. 

You realize how tightly knit our community of journalists is throughout the country when so many were privately reaching out, not for information, just checking in and you know, if he's safe, and of course I wanted to do my part as carefully as I could. I was really straddling two worlds in that moment. But there was nothing like that 40 minute period when I didn't know where he was. I didn't know if he or his colleagues or all the Senate staff, if any of them were safe yet. Because as you may recall, the coverage was unfolding. I was watching, I was going between CNN and MSNBC, seeing these live shots. 

I didn't even know it was happening until my kids started texting me, “is Dad all right? Where’s Dad?” And I thought, “well, why are they doing that?” I was actually on the phone with my son at the time. And, it was terrifying because… for all the reasons we've heard from so many people, I mean, I have been in that building—the Capitol—so many times. I know how rigorous their security standards are. All of that fell apart on that day. And it was once I knew my husband was safe, I could step back and start thinking about what was happening in our capital. 

And as you know, because of your life and your husband's life, we had to have round the clock protection for months afterwards because of threats, but you make a conscious decision and that decision is no, you will not hide. No, you will not give up. Because there's nothing more important, I think, than to step up at a moment of such adversity. You know this a lot, Rachel, actually, regardless of whether you want to acknowledge it, a lot of people look to you to see, well, “Rachel is going to keep going, then I'm going to keep going.”

And I can feel that at times, too, that if nothing else, I want everyone to know we're still standing and we're not giving up. And I don't mean that in any kind of self-aggrandizing way. I just mean it as sometimes, it’s the best I can do. I don't have the right words every day, but I will tell you this, I'm still here.

Rachel: No, I completely, I told a group the other night, you know, there was a time for a long time. We would just wake up and ask Alexa to play “Don't Back Down" by Tom Petty. And that was our anthem. And that was what we were going to do every day, our whole family. We weren't going to back down. And it's nice to have a reminder. It's worth it. Our country is worth it. And doing what's right is worth it. So I love that. 

Connie: I agree with you. I'm sure you have these conversations often with people, and this was long before the attempted insurrection. They'll ask me, “how do you keep going? How do we keep going when it gets so hard?”

And I said, “we always, every day we answer the same question, regardless of whether we're aware of it. We decide in that moment, is this the day that we give up? Or is this the day that we get out of bed, you know, feet on the ground, and we keep going? And many days that's enough. 

Rachel: Yeah. Yes. I completely agree. I think life, um, I'm 47… it gives you a lot of chances to look back when you have some perspective and you realize you've been through hard times. You're going to go through more. But it's going to be okay. And it's good to have friends and mentors in your life to remind you of that. I think you're a really important voice in that space.

Connie: Thank you. 

Rachel: If you could talk to someone who was involved in the attempted insurrection and stormed the capital on January 6th, what would you tell them? 

Connie: I don't have any interest in having a conversation with any of them. They endangered so many lives. They scared the entire country, and I already know what they think and what they say. They'd been trumpeting the man, that dictator wannabe, who was in the White House for four years. You know, look. I built my career on starting conversations, encouraging conversations. But there is nothing they can say to me to justify what they did. And everything I've seen about them since is basically trying to justify it, trying to excuse it, trying to blame Donald Trump for it. None of that is going to bring back those lives. And none of that is going to repair the damage they did to this country. So I'm really not up for that conversation, Rachel. 

Rachel: I completely understand. You know, and to that end, in our Facebook groups, you know, we see so many women whose lives, whose families have been affected by family members who have been brainwashed by QAnon. And in what you're describing, there's no point in engaging with people who are brainwashed. It's a useless endeavor. But for a lot of women, that's the reality. That they have, you know, essentially lost family members to this. So, I mean, do you have any thoughts for them or what would you say to them? 

Connie: I do. I think all of our efforts in that regard should be to help bolster and emboldened, and when we need to, to protect those who are going through that right now. And help them find their voices and help them understand that if ever there are time to speak up, it’s now. 

My generation of women, most of us were raised to make people comfortable. That was the whole idea, right? And so it can take a long time for us. It certainly took me awhile. I seem to have gotten over it, being a columnist for almost 20 years, to understand that it's not my job to make you feel better about your bigotry. It's not my job to make you feel okay about racism. And if the room gets uncomfortable when I call you on it, that is exactly the moment we need to have. I am not a “pass the apple pie and let's ignore what Uncle Floyd just said.” I'm just not into that at all. 

And more women need to feel the support for that because nobody can convene friends and family like women, no one can match the unheralded leadership that women show in their own families and in their communities, in the schools where their children go, in the workplace where they're often ignored but know how everything works. Right? And I'm at the age where I just, my mantra is “carry as we climb.” I don't think that means my generation of women have to step aside, but we must make room for the younger women, including yourself, and listen and learn from one another. And I that's where all my energy is on that issue. 

I care that they're hurting very much. I care about the pain that they did not invite. That's the other thing I think is really important. Your not agreeing with Donald Trump is not your fault. It is what I celebrate about you. That you were strong enough to speak out and strong enough to, I mean, the reason you're alienated from some family members is you refused to be silent. You refused to just be complicit. These are hard, hard things for a lot of women right now. 

And I know something about that. I wrote a piece for the Atlantic a number of years ago about my dad's racism. As I've said, often it's easy to hate the racist you don't know. It's quite another when he's also the person who made it possible for you to be the first in your family to go to college. So I had to find ways to find these, these bridges that we might lay brick by brick over many years. So I do understand the pain of that because there were many periods during our relationship where we weren't talking and it was almost always over the issue of race. So I do know something about that pain, but I'll tell you what, I also know this having lived longer… I don't have a moment's regret taking that stand over and over again with my father, because it really contributed to who I am. Our roots are our beginnings. They're not our excuses. And you know, racism is not inherited. And neither is Trumpism, frankly. We decide who will be, and if we're mothers, how we want to raise our children.

Rachel: That’s beautiful. I think so many people, women, for the first time are exercising an independence when it comes to their political beliefs. This has been an inflection point, where they're finding they have to diverge and they can't just not believe what others believe. They have to speak out against it. And it's a new place and a new experience for a lot of them. So maybe some conflicting feelings as well, but also a lot of power. 

Connie: I think you're so right. 

Rachel: You know, something that I think we all struggle with, and you've touched on this, is that our energy is like a bank account and you can only spend so much energy on a given day so that you need to be wise about it. And as women who are often trying to juggle 18 things, most of the time, you know, it's probably not worth the effort to argue with people who believe in things like QAnon. I mean, clearly. But you know, in this space of making a difference, what do you think is a wise investment of our time as women and mothers?

Connie: Well, I'm a big believer in the conversation and someone doesn't have to agree with me on everything. My friends don't, I don't even agree with Sharon on everything, right? And certainly now with my kids. The point is to have the space for conversation, the space to listen to one another and grow in that space. 

For example, social media. If they're going to go after me with personal attacks on Twitter or Facebook, they want two things. They want attention and they want access to you. And so that's why I love love—and I only wish it existed in real life—the block button! Because I do not engage. I will not engage. I don't care how many of them want to do screen captures of how I blocked them and they think that's their claim to fame. Have at it!

Rachel: That’s great advice. And probably some advice that I need to heed. 

Connie: It’s hard. It's hard. I mean, look, there should be friends you can call and say, all right, here's what I want to say to this guy, but I'm going to block them instead. Right? Got to have somewhere to put it sometimes. 

Rachel: No, but I think the blocking is very wise. They're not interested in having a conversation. You know, if they were, then I could engage in one, but that's not what they want. They only want to prove their theory or their narrative. 

Connie: And many times they just want to show off that they got Rachel Vindman to respond to them. 

Rachel: Right.

Connie: So to me, the operative phrase here is permission denied.

Rachel: I love it. I love it. Well, I am a big book nerd and I loved your book, The Daughters of Erietown. 

Connie: Thank you!

Rachel: Reading is my escape and biggest hobby and it was wonderful. So I hear you're working on another book, is this true? Yes? 

Connie: I am. Yes, it's true. Yes. 

Rachel: So, uh, you know, one of the things there was a little stressful for me for a while, as much as I like reading, was even reading and focusing during some of the more stressful times, not just personal, but during the election times when I was like, what's going to happen? Do you find it's easier to be creative now with a little bit more peace? 

Connie: I would say definitely with, well, first of all, Zoom teaching is over for me for the semester. So that's behind me. But having to not be afraid, I mean, the measures Sherrod took to keep me protected—Sherrod is a US Senator— and yeah, there were plenty of Republicans who were saying they weren't going to get vaccinated even after it was available. Though, it looks like in the Senate, they all did. He was double masking. He did not take an elevator for more than a year. We live on the sixth floor in our apartment building in Washington and he was taking the stairs. He would love to brag about his steps. The stress that he never complained about, trying to keep his wife safe as I was home, you know, asthmatic, and what we both went through just trying to stay safe, cutting off all these relationships in person that matter so much… that takes a toll on everyone. 

So like everyone else who struggled with it, it was really a challenge for me. And I do feel liberated. And I'm really trying to worry less. I survived the pandemic and I'm really consciously telling myself there are things I can't fix. Things I can't worry about right now. What would be the point? And it clears my head space for these characters, in my case, for these characters in this next novel to put down some roots, you know, unpack their bags. They got some stories they need to get out it. I can't hear them if my mind is too full of all that nonsense. And so I'm still working on my column, you know, June's a big month for me, cause my paperback comes out on June 1st and my first column for USA today comes out and—

Rachel: Congratulations!

Connie: Thank you. A lot of excitement. It's really nice to take another leap. I get nervous about some of it, but as I always tell my students, if we're never scared, we've stopped growing. 

Rachel: I love it. And I guess I have to ask as a reader, how is it—you touched on it a little bit, but how is it different to write a novel as compared to writing a column or other things that you have written?

Connie: Well, it's very different because when I'm doing— I mean, I've been a journalist for… I'm coming up on four decades soon. And so when I don't have enough information, when I don't know what comes next, I pick up the phone, I send an email, I do more research. You don't really do that with novels. The people you need to hear from are the ones that you've made up. And you've got to figure out what comes next. But there's something also very liberating about it.

And I often quote May Sarton, the late May Sarton, who wrote poetry and wrote fiction, but she also wrote a number of journals that were published. And I'm paraphrasing here, but she said “perhaps only in fiction can we be completely truthful. And if that's the case, I find that fiction writing is the most honest writing I've ever done.”

Rachel: I love it. Well, I look forward to your new book and to reading your column as well.

So now we have entered our rapid fire question portion of the talk. Are you ready? 

Connie: I’m ready. 

Rachel: Okay. What is the last thing that made you laugh out loud? 

Connie: I laugh a lot. And it's partly because of the people I picked to be in my life, I guess. I mean, my husband makes me laugh regularly, many times unintentionally, because we really are the Felix and Oscar of the— he is such a slob. I love him, but oh my God. My kids make me laugh, my friends… so I really can't name one thing. I think that's one of my secrets to remaining eternally optimistic no matter what, is I really do try to find the humor in life. And I’m surrounded by people who are very funny. 

Rachel: Okay. Great advice. So, what is your favorite response to Twitter Trolls? I think I know.

Connie: You already know the answer to that, but Block Em, Baby! 

Rachel: Let them post their stuff, pictures, yes. Yes. What was your craziest impulse purchase during the pandemic?

Connie: Oh my God. Hair dye! Boxes and boxes of different brands of hair dye. It was so pathetic, you know, I want it to be one of those women said, you know, “this is it. I'm going to go gray. I'm going to embrace my gray.” And for a little bit, I thought maybe… cause the very front of my hair was saying, “oh, hi, we're all white. Now isn't this lovely.” But then the rest of the hair shows up and says, “ha ha, jokes on you. Look at this nasty stuff." So I started coloring my own hair. And I didn't know, first of all, that “warm brown” meant red! So at some point I was on MSNBC, and he goes, “wow, Connie, she's really rocking that red hair!” or something like that. And I was like, “aughhhhh!”

As soon as I got my first hair appointment—I had not been in a salon in 16 months—as soon as I got that appointment, I took up a trash bag and Sherrod said, “what are you doing?” I was throwing a box after box, I filled a large trash bag full of boxes of unused hair dye! That was my craziest purchase.

Rachel: Wow, I wouldn't even try it. 

Connie: I looked like a secondary character on the Sopranos on many a day with this hair dye! The men, not the women! Then men! With this hair dye. 

Rachel: Oh, that's legitimately funny. So that’s the last time I laughed out loud! So what is your strangest campaign trail experience. 

Connie: I think so many people… as you know, I think I wrote a book about this called “And His Lovely Wife.” And it's titled that for a reason. People forget who you are—or back then they did, in ‘06 anyway. And so the strangest thing was having people voluntarily taking my hand and leaning in and telling me I should change my name. And I finally learned to just keep saying, “but I've always been called Connie.” And they are so stumped by it! They don't know what to say. By the time they figure out that you're making fun of them, you get to move on and have somebody else tell you that you got to change your name. 

Rachel: Do you and your husband have a song, a special song? 

Connie: Well, this is going to be sounding very corny, but Sherrod plays Our House by Crosby Stills, Nash, and Young on the piano. Whenever it comes on the radio, we sing it aloud. I think part of it is simply the respite that we think of as our home. It really is a break from everything. But my ringtone is, um, Here Comes The Sun. Because on our second date, Sherrod had sat in his living room and played that for me on his guitar. We are just so geeky, I know, but there it is. 

Rachel: Those are the little moments. Those are the moments that… it doesn't matter what's going on outside your house, because you know who you are. 

Connie: That’s right. 

Rachel: And those are the moments that remind you of that and help you face everything else. What is the worst yet most sincere advice someone has given you?

Connie: I still remember it so very well. A very affluent woman came up to me with Sherrod at my side, and started tapping places in my face and said, “you know, a little Botox would go a long way.” And she pointed to Sherrod and she said, “and he deserves that.” I can't tell you the response. 

Rachel: Hahaha!

Connie: That was one of the worst that I remember, but I've had many of women suggest I should do that. Look, I don't think badly of any woman who does that with her face. I don't volunteer for pain. When I was 16, I complained to my mother because I had such a wide face. She says, “honey, when you're 40, you'll have no wrinkles. You'll love it.” Well, that is no consolation to a 16 year old, but she's right—at 63, I probably do have a fewer wrinkles because I have such a wide face. So there you go. 

Rachel: My husband also has a wide face and people really like to comment on it. 

Connie: I feel in the kinship with him in this moment! 

Rachel: Well thank you so much for joining us. This was a true delight, I must say. And I recommend The Daughters of Erietown to everyone. It is really, really good. I enjoyed reading it so much. I sincerely mean that. 

Connie: Thank you, it means the world to me. And I hope to meet you in person sometime soon. 

Rachel: For sure. We're in the DC area. 

Connie: So are we, fairly regularly these days. 

Rachel: Okay. Well, let's make it happen. And again, thank you so much. It was wonderful. 

Connie: Thanks for your hard work. On you go.

BREAK

Amanda: Welcome back, Rachel. It was so great hearing your conversation with Connie. 

Rachel: She’s a real treat to talk to. She was delightful. Truly an honor to speak with her. And she had so much wisdom to share. 

So before we go, we like to leave you with what we call a Toast to Joy. And this week, my Toast to Joy is women, specifically women supporting other women. And I think the world is realizing that there's a lot of power in women and in our beliefs. And that we do have a lot to say. I've gotten a lot of really great feedback, from the first three episodes of this podcast. But more than that, I think people have realized women in the space of media and journalism have the ability to amplify the voices of other women. And they're very happy to do so. And to that end, obviously,Connie is the one who really comes to mind because she was just so lovely and encouraging for everything that we're doing. And it meant a lot. 

Amanda: Yeah. So I was actually thinking my Toast to Joy is pretty similar, cause I was thinking my Toast to Joy today was to my friends. Today and recently we've had some events in our town have been pretty tough, um, race-related, and there are some very loud voices that can make it feel like a lot of people don't believe what I believe. And I have a really good set of friends, moms, you know… sometimes it's too hard for me to be part of, kind of the meanness that can be on social media. And they have reached out to me and said, “I want you to know that you have women, you have friends, you have moms in this town who support you.” And it is really heartening to hear really what most moms are thinking. And that sometimes the loudest voices we hear don't represent most people. And I love that my friends can kind of bring me back from, you know, wanting to light something on fire. To be like, you know what, “we're here, we're reasonable. We can talk about this and we can talk about this in a way that is solving problems and, you know, making our town better.” And having women and my friends kind of bring me back and show me that kind of bring my faith in humanity back a little bit. That most people are truly good and want the best for their families and other families. And we can't let the loudest voices be the ones that stick with us. 

Jasmine: Wow. I love that. I actually love both of y'all's Toast to Joy, because it kind of reminds me of mine! Which is, you know, I think that's kind of amazing since we did not discuss this ahead of time.

But my Toast to Joy is actually to being happy. And I know that probably seems really silly to some people, but this year has been tough. You know, there have been a lot of tough moments. I've been really busy. But recently I was having a conversation with somebody that I care about a lot and, uh, at the same time I was feeling cute that day, so I decided to take a selfie. And what ended up happening was right as I was about to push the button to take a selfie, the person on the other end of the phone made me laugh. And so the selfie, you know how you take a— you hit the button and you're like, “oh no, that wasn't the face I meant to make!” The selfie came out and it was like a picture of pure joy. And I was just like, “wow, that is my happy face.” It's pure happiness. And so that is my Toast to Joy. I am going to go back to that picture whenever I have those moments where I'm like, you know, “what is going on in this world?” Because that was a moment where even if it was a split second, it was a split second where I caught my happiness and I'm just going to bottle that up and hold onto it.

Amanda: I love that our friends have a way of just… knowing where we're at and knowing where we need to be, and not pushing us, but like, “let's laugh right now.” Right? “We need to laugh right now.” Or “let's, let's be angry right now. Like let's just be angry. That's where we need to be.” And I love that women and friends have the ability to bring that out in us.

Rachel: Definitely. Yeah. Thank you so much everyone for joining us today. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a rating or review and we will see you next week on another episode of The Suburban Women Problem.