From Patrol To SWAT To Staccato: Training That Actually Works

The best shooting you’ll ever see on a body‑worn camera looks deceptively calm. That kind of control doesn’t come from “stand still and pass the qual” culture—it comes from practical training that blends speed, accuracy, and judgment under stress. We sit down with Chris Palmer—retired Phoenix PD SWAT operator, academy firearms lead, and now part of Staccato’s training group—to unpack how departments can move from checkbox drills to performance that holds up on the street and in court.

Chris takes us inside SWAT selection, life on a full‑time team, and the lessons that reshaped his teaching: most shootings involve movement before shots; everything is fast until officers regain control; and confidence is a community safety feature. We dig into the myths around “slow is smooth,” why time doesn’t create accuracy, and how training officers to recognize an acceptable sight picture at speed pays off when reality spikes. We also cover red dots on pistols—the index problem, faster learning for recruits, and why dots are a clarity tool rather than a crutch.

Policy matters just as much as practice. Chris explains de‑escalation as an outcome, not a script; time‑distance‑cover as levers, not excuses; and duty‑to‑intervene language that sets clear expectations without assuming omniscience. Supervisors can use BWC to coach case law, handcuffing, and decision‑making before small misses become big headlines. And yes, we talk Staccato: what the HD platform changes, how a better trigger and design lower friction for learning, and why the company is investing heavily in open, modern law‑enforcement training rather than hype.

If you care about safer officers, stronger communities, and shootings that withstand both review boards and public scrutiny, this conversation is your blueprint. Listen, share it with your training unit, and tell us: what’s the first upgrade your agency needs—movement reps, red dots, or supervisory follow‑through? If this helped, subscribe, rate, and leave a review so more listeners can find it.

Peregrine.io: Turn your worst detectives into Sherlock Holmes, head to Peregrine.io tell them Two Cops One Donut sent you or direct message me and I'll get you directly connected and skip the salesmen.

Transcript

Disclaimer And Show Kickoff

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Disclaimer Welcome to Two Cops One Donut Podcast. The views and opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of two cops one donut, its hosts or affiliate. The podcast is intended for entertainment and informational purposes only. We do not endorse any guests' opinions or actions discussed during the show. Any content provided by guests is of their own volition, and listeners are encouraged to form their own opinions. Furthermore, some content is graphic and has harsh language your discretion advised and is intended for mature audiences. Two cops when donut and its host do not accept any liability for statements or actions taken by guests. Thank you for listening. Welcome back to Cops One Donut. I'm your host, Eric Levine. Today I have with me our special, special co-host. And I mean special in every way that you're thinking, but being actually special, Banning Sweatland. What's up, buddy?

Meet Chris Palmer And The Mission

SPEAKER_00 1:02

What's up, Rod? How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:04

I'm doing well. And then I have our special guest with us today, coming from the land of staccato and retired police officerness, uh, Chris Palmer. How are you, sir?

SPEAKER_07 1:12

Good. How are you guys?

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Wonderful. Wonderful, sir. Um Chris and I have been sitting here, setting up, bullshitting, chit-chatting, uh, getting ready for the podcast. And uh I gotta say, guys, I'm already like, you know how you know how when you watch Star Wars, and I I like how I always reference Star Wars, but you know how when you watch Star Wars, like you feel that that that aura coming from Obi-Wan? Like that, I feel your your firearms instructorness. Like I feel that aura. Like I'm like, this guy could shoot any gun and just shoot perfect all the time.

SPEAKER_07 1:45

That's gonna be sadly disappointed. Definitely not a Jedi.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Not a Jedi in the in the firearms industry. I I don't believe you. You're humble. That's all that is. Humble. Because a company like staccato is not gonna pick you up. You're not awesome.

SPEAKER_07 1:59

I think they got me for my my looks. That was fair enough.

Early Life, Military, And Joining Phoenix PD

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Fair enough. I did, I don't know if you guys saw that thumbnail I put on YouTube. Like I instantly fell in love. I was like, that's a gorgeous fucking man right there. And I'm not ashamed of it. I don't care. But uh no, Chris, uh, I do want to I want to get to the firearm stuff with with law enforcement and all that. But what I like to do is I I like giving our guests a chance to kind of give their background, which got them into a life of service because you retired from law enforcement a couple months ago. Yeah, so something drew you to it. So I want to get to that. Before we do, I want our I want all of our people watching out there that we are going to do our interview this time. We're gonna go all the way through. We're gonna talk to our guests and and we, me, Banning, we're gonna bounce questions off him as we go. Maybe he bounces some questions off of us, but then we will open it up to our audience to ask questions. So make sure if you guys do have questions, don't feel bad. Put them in the comment section. Banning's gonna try to keep those all together for us. And we we want this to be about our guests at first, and then we'll get to you to y'all. So that's how the format's gonna be tonight. And tonight is all about law enforcement, use of force, and firearms instruction stuff. So that's if you're listening to this later, that's what this one's gonna be about. So, Chris, without further ado, sir, I want you to kind of give us a background about you, what led you into a life of service?

SPEAKER_07 3:29

I think it's because I didn't know what the hell else I wanted to do. That's fair. My dad was a cop in Tempe. So growing up with a dad as a cop, I would go, like once I started driving, I would drive to his substation uh after school and then jump in his car with him and drive around to do ride-alongs. Oh, that's awesome. I'd bring my friends, you know. Like, we would go, hey, let's go ride with my dad. Right. We're in high school, we'd go cruise around.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Shit we could do back then.

SPEAKER_07 3:54

Yeah, yeah. Um, and then I don't know, like uh in junior high, I decided I was gonna join the Marine Corps for no explainable reason. Just a wild ass. That's just what I'm doing. I think they had the best poster.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Um they do have the best uniform.

SPEAKER_07 4:10

And I was like, I'm gonna go in the marine corps, and then I'm gonna be a cop. My dad was like, you probably shouldn't do either one of those. Um, but I did. So I went in the Marine Corps, got out, uh, because they at that time in 1998, the reenlistment options were go to 29 Palms with battalion. And uh no. So I went to the army. Okay. Yeah, got out, went in the army, um, and then got a job at UPS, which if you have never worked for a living, working for a living sucks.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Um that's why being a cop's awesome.

SPEAKER_07 4:45

It is, it's uh it's like blue welfare. Yeah, um, but no, then I got I got offered the job at Phoenix PD and I took it in 1999.

unknown 4:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 4:52

I was there for 26 years.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Oh, so you were a cop during 9-11. Ooh, what was that like?

SPEAKER_07 4:58

That was it was busy, but it didn't seem like anything was different.

SPEAKER_05 5:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 5:02

It was that was a weird time. Yeah. That was a toss-up of guys going, do we go back in the military? Do we stay here? Like in that time in Phoenix, it was exceptionally busy.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 5:12

Um, already in a good unit, doing good work, and it was decided to stay there and work. But yeah. Yeah. A lot more support back then. Yeah. I still think we have a ton of support in the community. Like every community, I think you don't realize how much does actually suit the police. Um, they just want better of them in most cases.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Agreed. Give me one second. I want to adjust something real quick. Wrong way. There we go. I just wanted to center you better. Um, it was bothering me.

SPEAKER_07 5:47

No, like I just wanted to catch bad guys. I remember saying that in my like interview. Yeah, why do you want to be a police officer? And I was like, I want to catch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

I want to drive fast. Drive fast. Legally, and catch bad guys. Fair. That's that's uh listen, I one of my favorite stories, and I've told this very often, I knew I was gonna be in law enforcement somehow. Whether that was military, whatever. My dad, same as you, my dad was a cop, my grandfather was a firefighter. Um, one of my you know, closest uh family cousins was a state trooper. Uh just it it was all over. Cousins and whatnot were all military. And I love the respect that they got at family events. Like when you were a little kid, like you had family members you had to look up to, and the ones that I seemed to everybody seemed to respect were somebody that was in a first responder military role. And I was like, that's crazy because you got all these people in our family that do other things, and even them, they didn't matter. Most people worked at GM where I was from in Michigan anyway. So if you didn't work at GM, there's only one other option is a first responder. And in that, I really loved how they got all that respect. I was like, I I want to earn that same respect. How do I do that? Well, growing up in Flint, I'm not sure if you're real familiar with Flint. Don't drink the water. Don't drink the water. Yeah, uh, the police there were not the best. They were pretty bad. My dad was a cop down here. And I didn't grow up. I I lived with my mom and my stepdad. And uh it was one of those cool things where my stepdad was just like my real dad. Like I had I had great support all the way around, um, which was cool. But in that, I didn't necessarily want to become a cop because my dad was a cop. I it was more chase in that respect. And as a youth, where it was very popular to hate police in Flint, especially with NWA was super popular, all that rhetoric was was out there, and I was right there with everybody else, you know, fuck the police, you know.

SPEAKER_07 7:55

And um I still love NWA.

SWAT Selection, Culture, And Reality

SPEAKER_02 7:58

I still do love NWA. Um But I had an incident where I had a uh rollout basketball hoop and cops rolled up. I lived on a dead end road, mind you, and uh they came up, it was a two-man unit, and they come up, they're like, throw me the rock, throw me the rock. I was like, Oh shit, cops are gonna play basketball with us. And they threw them the basketball. One the the one stabbed my basketball, the other one knocked our hoop over and broke our hoop. And yeah, and I was like, The cops did that, the cops did that, and they're like, We told y'all to quit playing basketball on the street, we're tired of getting calls over here. It wasn't us, it was not us. That's not who they were talking to. Um, they were they must have talked to some other kids in the neighborhood, but got us confused. Either way, typical angry teenage kid. You know, I was probably 12 to 14 years old. I don't remember how old I was exactly. I didn't even tell my mom because I was like, she ain't gonna believe me. And I was like, it's a brand new hoop, she's gonna be pissed either way. So I just said the wind took it over, you know. I didn't even say anything, she didn't know it was broke for a long time. Uh, but I called my dad and I was like, I fucking hate cops. I was like, I like you, I know you're a cool cop, dad, but you're down in Texas, it's different here. And he'd given me the well, you can be a part of the problem, part of the solution. Well, I wasn't I was a teenage kid, I wasn't trying to hear that. I was like, fuck the cops, you know. I was like NWA all day long, and uh in that I something happened around 16 where I was like starting, you know, everybody's talking about their future, you know, where am I gonna go? I'm gonna go to college and all that shit. And I was like, well, I'm gonna pitch for the Tigers and then I'm gonna go do something. And that didn't work. So I was looking at some FBI, NSA, I don't know. I didn't just something in law enforcement. I knew I was gonna do that. The easiest path there was the military. That's the best way to get out of Flint. Um, I wasn't sure if I was I was gonna do the Marine Corps like an idiot, like when I was 18. You know, I was like, I'm gonna do the toughest thing and show everybody. And I'm so glad I decided to do a little bit of college first and then kind of like wise up to the world and then ask family members for advice. And even the Marines were like, go Air Force. I was like, Really?

SPEAKER_07 10:16

Air Corps was so fun.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

I was like, really? Air Force. And they're like, what do you want to do? I was like, I want to be a cop. They're like, go Air Force. Yeah, absolutely go Air Force. Like, okay, we're going Air Force. So I say all of that to come back to cops. We do tend to have the similar story when we get into law enforcement, get into a life of service. And I don't think yours is any different, but one of my favorites is a guy that was in my academy class where I'm currently at now. He joined because his roommate was joining. And his roommate and him went and took the civil service test together. He ended up scoring really high, and his roommate didn't. So he got an academy class, and then his roommate ended up getting an academy class like a year and a half later. But he's one of my best friends in law enforcement who never wanted to be a cop for any other reason than like, eh, seems like a good idea today, and my friend's doing it.

SPEAKER_07 11:08

You want to go be a truck driver?

SPEAKER_02 11:10

And he ended up being a great he was a great detective, he was a great patrol officer, and he's an awesome sergeant. Like you just don't hear that story of somebody that has zero interest in becoming a cop and makes a success.

SPEAKER_07 11:22

I like uh so I just left. When I retired, I was at the academy teaching firearms, right? So we'd get of course you were 40 new recruits in there, and we'd we always tell them, like, hey, we're the cool uncles, like the Sur stuff is stupid. Stop, you know, you don't need to walk around like a bunch of nerds with us, just get up here.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

We're well, you don't want them on eggshells. No, I just want them to hang out and have a good time and want them to learn.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Hold on. Before you go farther, can you explain to people that are listening why we foster that type of environment for firearms instruction?

SPEAKER_07 14:45

I believe we should foster it for all types of instruction. But specifically in firearms, it's you can have people have an emotional response while they're out there, and we've seen it where it's just too much going on. You have people who have never touched a gun in their life, and here they want to be the police, right? Right. And you can look at that and be like, you're an idiot. Or you can go, or you can go, hey, maybe they're like your friend. They never thought of this. They they want to serve, they have more than likely a naive and uh kind of pie in the sky rose-colored glasses of what the job actually is. Yep. But there's no need to shit on them about it. Like, let them experience it and try to make it as acceptable as possible for them. So we're just we're telling them we're we're here to teach you a skill. It has nothing to do with killing bad guys. And we've my buddy Matt and I have discussed where like shooting has nothing to do with killing, it's just the use of a tool. We're trying to get you to use a tool at the optimal level you can.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

At the appropriate yeah.

SPEAKER_07 15:40

Now, if and when you make a decision to shoot, which is other training, this is the way we'd want you to do it. And here's the here's the path we can show you to make it make sense to you. Because I hate here, you have to grip the gun this way. Well, no, that's how I grip the gun. Doesn't matter. You know, if you're the five foot three female and I got a six foot four dude, they're gonna hang on to the gun differently. Like their bodies require the gun requires different things from them. You know, I don't know how to tell them to do it. I can give them guidance and then they have to figure it out on their own. Yeah, you have to let them shoot. What did that do? What did that how did that behave? Well, I like it this way better. Oh, okay. Now I'm seeing a result here. Okay, cool. Replicate that. So you're saying there's not a template? No, there's no template. I like that. You need a coach to just kind of guide them on the path, and they have to figure it out on their own.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

It's the same. So where you're a firearms guy, I'm a grappling guy. I Brazilian jujitsu, judo. I've been in it for a long time. Um, and that's one thing I learned really quickly as an instructor, teaching control tactics, defensive tactics, whatever you want to call it. You come in as a in-service and we're we're training. You've got limitations. You've got a bad rotator cuff, you got uh a bad right hip. Like there's certain moves and things that you're not gonna be able to physically do. You just don't have the mobility. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's my job as an instructor. I can't go. Well, this is what the manual says. I've got to look and figure out what you can do and how I can adapt the movement to help you learn. That's my job, my role as an instructor. So hearing you say that, I can relate to it, and that's how I know you're not full of shit. You know what the fuck you're doing. Well, it's a process.

SPEAKER_07 17:18

Yes. The process is gonna let you develop your technique, right? Yeah. Your your technique, if if I were to get you in top mount and I said, all right, dump me off to your left side, you may do it different than I would do it. Right. But it ends the same result.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

Yeah.

Life On A Full‑Time SWAT Team

SPEAKER_07 17:32

Right? Who gives a shit how we got there? What is your process? What are you thinking about when you do it? What are you not thinking about? Like, what's the what are the core simple things? Well, leverage and limiting my mobility, right? Yeah. If we're talking about grappling, yeah. Okay, cool. How could you do it? Well, I could do this. Okay, see if it works. Same thing with a gun. The gun's jumping all over the place. Well, how could you stop it from doing that? Yeah. I can hang on tighter, okay. But if you hang on tight too tight with your right hand, your primary hand, does it change the way the gun behaves? Does it make it harder to pull the trigger? Maybe more with your other hand. Okay, yeah, it's a balance. And I, it's not 80-20 or 60-40. We've had that conversation with guys like the old everybody who's been taught fire has been taught that, right? Like 80-20 or 60-40, right? And I'm like, all right, let's get a grip meter. Uh now give me 100%. Squeeze it as hard as you can. All right, now give me 60%. Good fucking luck hitting that number.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:21

And good luck having that be repeatable. It's not the point. It isn't a percentage. It's what does this when it feels like this? How does the gun behave? Does it behave the way I want it to? Is it predictable and repeatable? We're trying to get people down that path.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

I like that. I thought this is gonna be a good one, Benny.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

I'm already like do me a favor, Eric, and just to appease our amazing audience, can you switch y'all's cameras to where you would be on the left and he'd be in the middle? So it looks like y'all are looking at each other. It's I'm just a lot of they're perfect. There we go. Wait, is that good, guys? I think that's better.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Works for me. Whatever appeases the masses.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Um I think we're good.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Okay, cool. Uh let me get back on track here. So you get into law enforcement. Um, you're out of Arizona. Uh I don't know if you want to say I worked for Phoenix, Phoenix. Okay, so being out at Phoenix. And did you know firearms was gonna be the path? I mean, I I know in law enforcement in general, we we get a feel for the job, we see what our draw is, what, but you being prior military, firearms tends to make a lot of sense with a lot of military people.

SPEAKER_07 19:31

So it wasn't, I would it definitely wasn't, I wasn't aware that was gonna be a path. Okay. I didn't even know SWAT was gonna be a path. Like my my you I think in life you have mentors and you have people who you can just rely on, even if you don't believe in the moment, you can think back and go, Oh, yeah, they were right. Yeah. My dad was probably one of my biggest um mentors, and he's like, you know, he's like, Don't worry about what you want to do in this job. There's so many different things and aspects that you can go to because you're gonna but you're gonna quickly figure out what you do not want to do, right? I very quickly figured out I don't want to be a motor. Yeah, yeah. I remember like thinking, oh, that would be kind of cool, chips. And then you see the motors, you're like, nah, the whole thing is stupid. I have no desire to be a motor. Arizona and write people tickets, like sock, like you're not doing anything. Not no offense to you, motor guys. It's just that wasn't my path. I I have a beath.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

I'm always thank you. I have a beath, but I'm constantly throwing shade at traffic, guys, because I'm like, bro, your only job is to make people miserable. Your only job is and you're riding making the streets safer.

SPEAKER_07 20:33

No, you're not.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Stop. And you're riding a motorcycle in in air, it's worse than it is in Texas. It's 115, 120 degrees on the freeway. Yeah, and no desire. They're emptying their boots, just full of sweat. Like, it's disgusting.

SPEAKER_07 20:46

But yeah, like motor, don't want to do that. Document crimes, I hated that. Getting like stole bags of stolen checks back when those were a big deal. Uh-like, oh my god, like this is this is stupid.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

It's more of fraud cases. Um, let the FBI deal with that.

SPEAKER_07 20:59

We did a bunch of prostitution and dope, and I thought I was gonna do the dope thing for a while.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Same with me. It's kind of fun, but it gets old.

SPEAKER_07 21:05

It gets old.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 21:06

Um important, but it gets old. Um, and then the SWAT thing was at first, I was like, SWAT guys, I was in the Marine Corps. Like, I'm I'm a freaking topical god. Yeah. No, I'm not. And then I you get to see these guys, and you you, you know, you see what our team could actually do and what they're responsible for, and you're like, holy shit, I think I want to do that. And that's eventually the path I went down.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

So I'm glad you brought that up because a lot of times, and I'm sorry, security forces guys, I'm gonna throw you guys under the bus because I hear it all the time. I'm still in the military. Don't let the beard fool you. I gotta shave it once a year. Um, I do all my military time at once. And uh I'm down at the 802nd in Lackland Air Force Base with the security forces guys, Air Force cops. And all too often, every time I come down there, they're like, Oh, you know, you're a cop up there, such and such, right? And I'm like, Yeah. And they're like, like, how many cops? And I'm like, about 2,000. And they're like, holy shit, like, that's crazy. What do you do? You know, and they're like this. And they're like, You think I can just lateral over there? And I'm like, not a chance. And you have to have that come to Jesus moment with them, like, yes, you have a rest authority. You got you got a good start, you got a lot of cool training. I'm not knocking that you're not ready to be a cop on the street. No, not not coming out of any military policing, not even OSI or NCIS, whatever they call it for the army. Um, you got the they got great investigative skills and whatnot, but you can't just jump into a detective role. You gotta go be a street cop. And I'm sorry, if you were a military cop, you're not ready. Banning, has that been your experience?

SPEAKER_00 22:43

100%. You know, 100%. I I knew a lot of guys that were MPs coming from different branches, coming in and being an FTO. Um, and there wasn't any branch that was just better than the other when it Came to law enforcement. There was a lot of fix as we call it in the FTO world. We had to fix a lot. Yeah. Because it's a completely different dynamic and environment that you're coming into when it's full civilian law enforcement than what you gather on a base. And I was not an MP in the Marines. I was in, it was called security forces, but it had nothing to do with MPs. We guarded our nation's assets, I guess is what we what we did at just asset protection and asset moving. But MPs versus civilian, they're not ready. I don't care if they've did 20 years and game made all the way up to supervisor level, either officer or enlisted, you have a fix when it comes to the streets of municipality. Period.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I want to give a shout to Brett Lingenfelter. He was saying hi to you, Chris. So what's up, dude? Uh yeah, he was over on LinkedIn, apparently. Uh you got a fan. Um, so but uh yeah, I'm uh I I I keep putting this out there to my security forces guys, like, yeah, you're not ready to just step into this role. So for you going in, I could see how the mentality is like, oh I'm fucking Marine. Like, that's what we do. I got a name for all my guns.

SPEAKER_07 24:07

Like well, it's it's the assumption you know what the job is.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Yeah.

Training Philosophy: Process Over Templates

SPEAKER_07 24:10

And the only the only experience anyone has from it is either from TV or movies. Yep. Right. So like even on a even, and we would tell new guys when they would come um pre-selection and during selection, guys will go on to come and talk to you. And it's like, look, like, what do I what should I study? What should like nothing? Just you're either gonna be the right guy or you're not. You're either gonna fit in or you're not. Um we'll teach you what you need to do. We're gonna teach you everything you need to know. Trust me. It's there's a lot of skill and experience here. But even on a department that has a SWAT team, they think they know what the SWAT team does. But you know, as much, like that's like thinking you know what the sex crime detectives do. All they're lazy, all they do is go to lunch. No, they're doing a lot of other stuff too. And the same even with the traffic guys we want to pick on. I'm sure setting up a, you know, when the president comes to town, like setting up which road you're gonna block and all that's a pain in the ass. But like you don't know what a job is until you've been in it and actually experienced it. Yeah, you have your assumptions, and that's I think a good thing for a lot of young cops to come in, like you know, the the base MP, like I could be a cop over there. Sure, you you may very well have the skills and ability and the the demeanor that we're looking for, but you can definitely not lateral right over here. No, trust me. Yeah, your first night out, like if we were to put him in the with Vanny, say you just go FTO with him, like he's just gonna watch you. You take care of this call, it would not go well.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

No, you'd be like, well, let's start simple, let's just do a traffic stop, and you're like, All right, then they just pull a car over and you're like, What'd you pull him over for? Because I felt felt like it. Yeah, yeah. Why well you you do realize we're not on the base. You can you can do that on a base, but you can't do that here. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so I want to kind of go down your your SWAT role. So you you decide to go for SWAT. Now, what was the what year was this? 2005 was my selection. Okay, so in about 05, uh I'm sure train training has changed drastically, even now, since then, since body cameras are a thing, they weren't a thing uh then, and uh being able to see yourself going through shoot houses and whatnot, and like people that they don't understand, like technology has changed so much over just the last five years of how we are able to train and get better. Um, now we're going all the way back to 05. You guys gotta remember in 05, you didn't even have an iPhone yet. I don't think iPhones came out until 07. So you didn't even have an iPhone, guys. And so you're going, you're back in 05, uh, which people need to understand with SWAT. When you're the new guy, you're the fucking new guy. And you're doing all the shit jobs that nobody else wants to do, at least at major departments. Phoenix is a major department. Um, but what was your experience like as far as the the tryout, the selection? Because I definitely want to know like what it was like to be selected at a major department. That's that's a big deal. It's it's one thing to get selected at a small department because you know you know who your competition is. I know a lot of people. Most people probably don't even want to do it. It's just, but at a major department, did they have a dedicated SWAT team? Yeah, it's full time. So yeah, so you got a full-time SWAT team, which is a whole other ball of wax. And um, you're going against people that how long had you been on the department since 99? So you probably had some good competition going on. So what was that like?

SPEAKER_07 27:31

I was told I had zero chance because I only had seven years on.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Which makes sense. That that is a normal usually that's 10 years is about when they start any big department, guys.

SPEAKER_07 27:43

Back in the day, like now we've we've taken younger guys over at like right at three years and four years. Um, but they've basically been groomed and yeah, they're brought up like this is your gonna go test and do this.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Groomed in a professional way, guys. Not in a gross way, not in a gross way.

SPEAKER_07 27:59

Or the cool the um no, but I clarification three years in patrol, which was just hair on fire, like getting in trouble, like often, but not bad. I never got in trouble, right? Right?

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Never got busted in trouble, but I got talked to you weren't violating rights, you were just I was violating rules, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:20

Like, but I didn't even know. Yeah, like I had so Terry Rowe is one of my first sergeants, and he like conversation in a parking lot after I chased a car and chased a guy and tackled him and put him in my car, and I wasn't even really sure why. He's like, What did I tell you about chasing cars, Chris? And I'm like, You told me not to chase them, and he's like, Okay, and he just walks away. And I'm like, I think I've told this story before, but it's like, all right, yeah, I think he's serious. I think I probably should not do this again, or it's gonna not go well. Right. Um, yeah, like just getting after it, like yeah, get like chasing bad guys, getting getting into as much as possible. That's writing good reports, putting dudes in jail, and then making it to a net team and getting like a little bit of freedom where you can be kind of plain clothes and go sit on dope houses and pick up prostitutes and buy dope and do all this and then eventually go to SWAT. But I worked on enough smaller things with those dudes where we had some kind of arm robbery capers, and I worked with a buddy of mine who was on the team and got to meet them a little more, ride with them a little more, and then get involved. They got involved in a shooting with me in the car on a jump on these guys that were doing armed robberies, and I didn't shoot, and they were like, You did a good job not shooting where you were at.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Oh, because it was tactically not it was not a good idea to shoot where I was at.

SPEAKER_07 29:37

And uh I think that kind of helped them be like, This this guy might work. He's got good decision making.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Yeah, yeah. The last thing you want to know is that you got involved in a shooting, and the guy that's just behind you was the one that fired, and you're like, Well, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_07 29:52

Well, this was a dual street jump with guns going both directions. Oh Lord, that's pretty fun. That's that's not like I don't have anything to shoot at. There's bullets going, but like, eh, nothing's good.

Recruits, Stress, And Coaching For Outcomes

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Yeah. Um, and I can tell people like I myself have gotten in and banning, I'm sure, can can agree with some of this. I have gotten in trouble for putting myself in bad positions. One of my talking about dope, I first learned about setting up on a dope house. Well, I didn't really consider it that when I learned this, I'm with two other units, you know, patrol guys. They're teaching me the ropes on setting up on a dope house and what to look for and how to make the contact and all that stuff when they leave the dope house and what you can look for and how to search and all that stuff. So I'm like, all right, this is fun. Let's learn this side of the house. Well, they we did this for like three weeks straight. Cool, I got it. Cool. Well, now I'm I'm looking at the the clock and I'm like, I'm bored, there's nothing going on tonight. I'm gonna go set up on the dope house alone. And guess what? I got into some trouble. So the Sarge is like, Why would you set up on a dope house by yourself? I'm like, I don't know, I thought that's what we did. Just I was catching I was catching bad guys, Sarge. What do you want from me? Uh he's like, don't go alone. He's like, you're gonna get into something. He's like, you want to be by yourself? I said, Well, I figure if I needed help, I call out. I didn't want to burden other people. And uh here we are. So let me have fun.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah, let me have fun. So but speaking of which, did the do they let you do trash runs, Eric, when you were just in patrol, or did they leave that up to you?

SPEAKER_02 31:28

No, no, no. Yeah, we would it would be a request from narcotics if you did that type of stuff, yeah, for sure. Um, I would do want to give a shout out, though. Somebody dropped uh memberships.

SPEAKER_05 31:38

Where did it go?

SPEAKER_02 31:39

I lost it. There it is. Uh Craig Holcomb dropped 10. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. So for all of those that support the show and um decide to put some of their hard-earned money into what we're doing, your money goes directly back into what we're doing, doesn't go into our pockets. Uh, it is purely for that they bought us YouTube premium. They got tired of the ads popping up when I was showing. So we got YouTube Premium for everybody. Uh, and we are working on one of the next things I'm trying to purchase is banning to have uh a camera because he he looks like a bag of potatoes. And then um we need to get we need to get Matt Thornton a camera as well, guys. So that's that's what we're working on right now. We want to get Matt and Banning cameras uh and and get their internet paid for. That's another thing I want to get. Banning, how far away from fiber are you?

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Uh probably a month to where I could actually get they they've done it down the street. Okay. And now we're just waiting for that office to green light it here in town. And when you think of a Texas town with a square and a courthouse, that's what Jacksboro is. And we're just we're waiting for that uh light to be turned green, and I will get full fiber in the house. So hopefully, hopefully before summer, it'll be uh it'll be ready.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Um, I do want to, I know I'm not fielding questions, but I don't want to lose this one in particular. Have you ever become friends with someone that you arrested years before? I want to give you a real short story. Um, uh a guy in the Air Force, his name was Steve. I just I leave it at that. I don't want to put his last name out there. Uh Steve was I work I worked corrections at the time on the base, and he had he got busted using steroids. And so he got, I think, like a year, and so he was at our facility. Our facility could hold people up to two years. And he had a passion to work out, obviously. He got busted for roids. And me being me, I think we could house up to like 30 people at the time in Montana where I was stationed. I brought my own weight set in. I was like, I'll use it, it's not a big deal. Uh when everybody's out in the the little yard that we have playing basketball, my I'll let my guy work out. He he doesn't give me any problems, he's a cool guy, uh, nice guy. Like, it's the Air Force, it's a military. Well, you know, it's military jail. So I was like, it's ain't a big deal. So lo and behold, years later, I take a call in my city where a person sidewide sideswiped a car. This is where if you don't believe in God, I can't help you, but I do. And uh car got sideswiped, and my guy that's car got hit was his. Really? And here I am. He's a car salesman now, huge, like he's huge in Texas and does really well, kills it. And he sees me and he's like, Are you are you Levine from Melmstrom? And I was like, Yeah, I was like, Were you were you there? And I I'm I'm looking and I'm like, holy fuck, Royd's guy. And he's like, Yeah, it's me. So we we link up years later, and we're friends to this day. When the Dallas five happened, he bought me uh a level four plate carrier. Like didn't even ask. He's like, I know you guys aren't getting these, and he sent me a level four plate carrier. I mean, with with the plates and everything. We're talking, it was the strandhog system too, the tube system.

SPEAKER_07 35:12

Like it's first beer's good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Yeah, yeah, it's all first beer. And uh, so he sent me all of that as a I'll never forget the way you treated me in in jail. So, yes, to answer your question, yes, we have so, but I want to get back to our guest. So that was a good question. Um, okay, so you get to SWAT, you go through the you go through the tryout. Now I want to know about the selection process. Like, how many people did you go against and how did they let you know you made it?

SPEAKER_07 35:40

So selection is always ongoing, right? It's a continuous process of you're just waiting to fail. Um back then it was super basic. You had a written test, history of the unit, like abilities of the unit, department policy, stuff like that. The law. Um, then oral board, and then a physical fitness test. Um, did all those, knocked them out, got narrowed down to a smaller group, shot, did some tactics type stuff, just kind of here, teach you something, go show us you what you got taught. Cool, you can do that. And then the final oral board with the team supervisors, and they notify you that you're on a list. So 10 people make the list and then they take them in order back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Okay. So you get you go through that. Now you how'd they make the the how'd you know you got picked?

SPEAKER_07 36:33

So the day before the next year's test, my number came out. I was number three. So it was kind of explained like it's your first year testing, you can't you're not number one. You can't be number one.

SPEAKER_04 36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 36:44

So I came out number three. Um, the day before the next year's test in 2006, they told me go ahead and swap shirts, you're coming over. So I got to go to the test that I was ready to take to come to the unit again um as a probationary member.

SPEAKER_05 37:01

Okay.

Practical Shooting: Speed, Accuracy, And Control

SPEAKER_07 37:01

And then you're on probation for a year, just learning, going to schools, going on operations, learning, going to schools, being evaluated, riding with different people, get assigned to your squad, you get your take-home car, and there's slowly given more uh autonomy until your probation's up, and then you're officially there and you get your wings.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Nice. Do you mind just taking two seconds and explaining that the internal feeling once you were selected, once it it registered in your mind that you were actually selected, uh, even as a probationary member, that first step is there. What what was the what was that internal feeling? I mean, did you race home to celebrate? Was it okay, this is one step, I gotta lock in now and do this and this and this, or did you get to celebrate a little bit? I mean, was it a huge milestone for you, or was it just a notch on the belt?

SPEAKER_07 37:55

No, I I remember calling my dad and I was like, hey, yeah, I just I just made the SWAT team. He's like, Oh, that's good. Like, what does that mean? I'm like, I don't know. Dad always understands it. And you know, and I'm like, and then I'm like, I think I fucked up. Like, now what? Like now, like now I'm gonna go over there and I'm gonna fuck up. It'd be better not to make it than to go over and get kicked out, right? Yeah, you're not wrong. You're just not hacking it here. Like, not hacking it there is that's embarrassing not making it to me. I'm with you. I was the same thing. Yeah, so I didn't celebrate it all. I didn't uh I was just kind of lost. I was still younger, youngish. Um, especially back then, it was like we used to say, like, when when when when strong men with gray hair used to run this place, it was a different world.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 38:40

Um, and they were, they were like just big men, yeah, right. You know, I'm 30 something years old, barely, and they're like just these salty freaking badass dudes. Yeah, they're all cool as hell, like eventually. But when you're first there, they're like, Yeah, it's just because it is. It's such a like even back, well, especially back then, it was such a small world that was completely separate from everybody else. Like no one knew who they were, what they were doing, or where they were at ever. Just if you needed them, they showed up.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 39:09

And nobody cared. And getting used to that was hard. Like I show up and they're like, hey, here's here's your guns, here's your here's all your stuff you're gonna need, here's your car. Like, what do I do now? They're like, I don't give a fuck. So do whatever you want. Be probably have training, you know, training tomorrow at six, be there. All right. And like no one's babysitting you. Like, yeah, this is here. Just now you're a grown-up. Like, do I have to check seven? Like, you know, I would ask, I asked them that first day. I'm like, do I have to let you know when I'm gonna eat? And they're like, no.

SPEAKER_03 39:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 39:38

They're like, we start work at this time, we we end work at this time. You're on you're not on standby yet, but you'll be on standby next week. You're gonna be on standby a lot when you're in your learning phase. And here's your next school, and then meeting the squad. And yeah, the first month, I yeah, to explain the feeling, I didn't even know, I didn't know my ass from my elbow. It was just like, all right, where am I? What am I supposed to be doing? And I just quietly tried to get along.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Okay. Fair enough. I mean, that makes sense. I I so SWAT's one of those things that I was like, yeah, that that would be awesome. I've always kind of wanted to do it, but I had other ambitions, obviously, education's my big thing. Like, I I wanted to be, I I had a very huge passion, passion for control tactics and grap grappling and stuff. And I just got cops just keep getting themselves in trouble because they don't know how to do this stuff and they jump to a higher use of force than they need to. And I'm just like, God, so it's such a simple fix. Just dedicate time to your craft, guys. Like you're you're gonna get in a fight, especially at a major department. You're gonna get in a fight. It's gonna happen. If you're not ready for that, I'm sorry, it's on you. Like you knew you're getting in this career. Like getting in this career, like your fitness should be a thing, right? No different than anything else. You know, if you're gonna go be a doctor, you gotta do well in school just to get up to that. So to me, I think grappling should be a mandatory thing prior to becoming a cop. I mean, we've had that discussion on here many times, but that's the problem that I saw a lot of times was just I'm like, oh, it's such a simple fix. And trying to push that, trying to push that educational mindset in everything that we do on here. So having you on and getting your experience and and talking about yeah, you made the team, but you're you're the water boy pretty much when you start out. And I want people to understand that from the outside at these major SWAT or major police departments with a full-time SWAT unit, um, one, that's not a common thing. So don't think that every police department has a SWAT unit. They don't. Um, major departments do. And then even when you get on, like you said, it's it's almost like you're on a professional sports team.

SPEAKER_07 41:50

Yeah, it's not, it's not degrading in any way. No one's like, fuck you, rookie dummy, you know. Yeah. Like you do say stupid shit and they just look at you like, don't ever do that again. But it's very professional, very, it's much more mature than you're used to. Yeah. Until you get you know friendly with everybody and you realize they're all just a bunch of grown-ass boys as well.

SPEAKER_06 42:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 42:10

But it's still like you are getting the water. You have your great idea, nobody wants to hear. And maybe that's bad in a way, and you start to realize that later, you're like, hey guys, what if we do this?

SPEAKER_02 42:23

And they're like, shut the You think you just you think you're the first one to think of that?

SPEAKER_07 42:26

Oh wow, you're a genius. Like, we tried that 10 years ago, and here's why we don't do it. But at least they would explain it. Hey, I understand what you're thinking, but we don't do it that way because of this. Yeah. Oh, well, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

No shit, you didn't know that. So maybe you should sit in the corner and shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_07 42:40

But that call could be a bad thing too, or yeah, you know, shut up, new guy. You don't know anything. Maybe he's got a freaking great point. Yeah, you know. Yeah. So I mean it has to be tempered, but if you're gonna tell someone no, we're not doing that, at least the explanation, you know. But when there's time, when if there isn't, no shut up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Like and if they're smart, they don't bring it up in front of everybody. They pull somebody aside, hey, I heard what we were talking about. I was thinking about this. And that. And again, it goes into being the right fit. Uh, I I want people to understand. Again, I'm a person that's never been SWAT, but I understand teams. And I I learned that from the military. And one of the things that I've told people, I'm like, why do you want to be SWAT? If you want to be SWAT because you want the patch and you want the cool title, you're in it for the wrong reasons. If you are a team guy, if you're like, how can I fill a hole that they have? Okay, now we're talking. Now you've got kind of the right mentality. I knew I couldn't dedicate the time that it requires to do that job and be a benefit to a team. So I never did it. It's not fair to them. Because you can fool them, you can get in there and kill a shoot house real quick and be awesome. And you know, you're a fitness guy. So like, yeah, he works out, he does this, he does that, and then you get in there and turns out you're a lazy ass, don't have time for nothing. Like, you don't want that guy.

SPEAKER_07 44:03

That's why probation's a year. Everybody can fake the funk for a testing process or a selection. Yeah, but you're pretty good at spotting a lot of them. Yes. Um, but every once in a while you just got some people where you're like, you know what, this isn't a good fit for you. Where would you like to go work?

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Yeah. And and for me, I I knew that about myself. I'm I'm a dad, you know, at the time. I was like, uh, if I was single, fuck yeah. Like, but it well, once I became a dad, things just kind of changed for me. And I was like, that would be fun, but that's being selfish. And I shouldn't do SWAT because it's fun just for me. I need to do it because it's a benefit for the team. And if you have that mentality, I I'd say you got a good head start on SWAT.

SPEAKER_07 44:39

Yeah, I got I burned out on it 13 and a half so years into it.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

You did 13 years of SWAT. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

That's not burning out, that's a long time now. That's good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

I bet. So tell them what I want people to understand when you sign up to be SWAT, tell them about being on call. Tell them about all the how a shift can go when you go from one barricaded subject to the next.

SPEAKER_07 45:03

And it's either come in and work out in the morning and do nothing and hang out and or go shoot. Um, everybody gets you know allotment of ammo. Nobody tells you what to do. You can shoot on your own, squad shoot for every week. You know, we're going down to the shoot house. I ran the breaching program and high angle program. So we'd go down and high angle? Like rope rescues. Oh, okay. Um fire department uh technical rescue. And then we did like high angle assaults for like bridges and hotels and everything else. So heights. Heights. Fuck that.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Nope.

Movement, Decision‑Making, And BWC Insights

SPEAKER_07 45:34

Um, no thank you. But then the breaching stuff would be like, I want to go. My partner Nick and I would go, you know, and Mark, we'd go, oh, let's go, let's go practice, let's go play with a new idea. So we'd have off-site buildings, like 250,000 square foot offices. We'd go in, get our explosives, just let call the city we were in and go, hey, we're gonna be here doing this. We'd go in there and experiment. What works better? What does what to what? Can we get away with this? Can we move this here? And we would just practice on charges and then drive home.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

I mean, that's the fun part. You know, that's the fun part.

SPEAKER_07 46:04

Yeah, but yeah, like get up at 3 a.m. because you know you have a five o'clock paper, everybody's there to brief, and then that always goes long because we're on doper time or whatever. Yeah. And now we're sitting around sleeping in our cars, and then they call everybody out, we brief it, we hit the house, and then they're like, hey, we have another one. So you do like two or three papers in the morning, go get some food, grab a coffee, whatever. Then you get a holdover for a paper with the night squads at that night. Then you go home, and if it's your standby week, you get called out at one in the morning for a barricade with nobody in the fucking house, or you know, a good one. It could be a crazy one, but yeah, summertime. You're standing on the side of a building and it's 118 degrees, and you're on the south side of a house for six to seven hours waiting, yeah, just standing there, going through barrels of water.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

Yeah. And and then being on call. Yeah, that's the other part. You could be out with your family having a birthday and two separate cars, two separate cars. You can't drink. Um, and you're again, yeah, traveling separate, and now the wife has to explain any divorces. Nope. Fuck, that's amazing for a SWAT guy. Yeah, that's amazing for a SWAT guy. Listen, SWAT guys get divorced very high, guys.

SPEAKER_07 47:17

Um I got I I I could have lost her. I got real lucky.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it it does. That's something I want people to understand the the job.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

You just married you married way up, and that that shows it right there.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Yeah, you got a good one. That's what it happens.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Way out of my league, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

She's pretty awesome. But um yeah, I want I I want people to understand SWAT guys, like is as cool as the luster is from the outside looking in, um from the inside looking out, from what I've seen in my own experience, they sacrifice so much, a lot freedom. They sacrifice a lot of freedom. Um they have to be ate up about what they're doing for their team. Um, so I give a lot of respect to full-time unit SWAT guys because it has a lot of luster to it. It's cool to be able to say I'm SWAT, but when you know what they go through and you see from the outside looking in, it it's tough. It's a tough gig and it's it's above and beyond the call of duty than just your regular patrol guy. It's above and beyond the call of duty, even when you look at it from a military standpoint. Uh because you have to be sharp all the time, otherwise your partner's life depends on it.

SPEAKER_07 48:34

Yeah, it's not my my friends and I'll talk about like the whole you're SWAT or you're not thing, I hate. Yeah, it it it kind of bugs me. SWAT teams are generally made up of just good cops. Um for the I would say for the most part. Like I've traveled all over the country now. You know, we had the SWAT championships out at Staccato Vegas. Um, just incredibly good dudes who are on a SWAT team, some of them very small, right? Like, and you can like pick on a part-time team if you want, like, oh, they're just a part-time team. Well, some of those dudes take it so fucking serious and they're so good at their job. I've seen guys on full-time teams who just don't respect how much they have, like the amount of money that's just spent on them and the freedoms they have, and they can do whatever they want. We got this. Oh, we just bought a rook, we got explosives, we got helicopters, we got thermal, we got, you know, the highest end stuff on the planet. You know, cry is your uniform. They give them to you. Like, you get to wear cries. Um, I could care less about that. But in general, the most productive teams who have actually had bad experiences, like done a lot of work, um, realize that like you have to just be good. Like you gotta be a good cop, but all the skill sets that you need and the reliance on the other guys has to be there.

SPEAKER_04 49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 49:53

Like the everyone is overdue for their own terrible day.

unknown 49:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 49:57

Right? We had a bunch. We had a whole bunch of, you know, we everything has a a street name, like 14th place, 85th drive. Like everybody remembers the big ones. Um, and it's just it's like when you're faced with that, what is your team going to do? The team, like it doesn't matter how good you are, but if your team isn't capable of it, like maybe you should rethink and reassess what you actually intend to do with it. Because it's like everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

Like Mike Tyson. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 50:29

When when your teammates get shot, when you get shot, what is the plan? Like, what are you supposed to do? Yeah. Because it's going to happen. Like, you will, you're going, like, that's one of the best briefs I've ever heard on one of our former teammates who took a patrol guy with a shield. He said, Look, you're going to get shot. Just hold the shield up against the door so I can get in. And the guy's like, Okay. And they did a patrol crisis entry. Gangster. And they won. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Fuck yeah.

SPEAKER_07 50:54

But that's like he's just telling him, like, look, this is what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Yeah. But when the expectation is met and known, it's easier to handle. Versus the unknown and like, well, I mean, the guy might shoot, he might not. No, fuck that. He's shooting. I sure hope he doesn't. Well, but he's going to.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

So just that's what you took the oath for. For somebody to react like that that quickly and get up there and do their frigging job. I commend the heck out of that, man. You uh you have a lot of fake ones out there. You know what I mean? And we all know what I mean by that. You got some out there that that claim the title, this and that, but they're not all that.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Todd Pearson said, no, it isn't above and beyond the military, guys. The military makes a tiny percentage of what SWAT uh an average cops earn in just a year. That's not what we're saying. We're saying about the the actual commitment and training that's involved. That's really what I'm getting down on that.

SPEAKER_07 51:43

So yeah, comparison's the thief of joy is like one of those famous sayings. Like, guys, like I'm just telling you, this is my views of the world, right? Like, cops got to stop swinging on the nuts of the military guys, and military guys got to stop thinking they're better than cops and vice versa.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:56

Like that ain't the job. I was in the military, right? And I'm a cop. Like if you were in the military and you want you, like maybe police work is a good, a good job for you. Maybe it's not. But that I don't try to, I don't care. My buddy Matt and I say something like all the things I've ever done are irrelevant. It's like, what are you doing now to help or make things better?

SPEAKER_03 52:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:18

And that's kind of where I went into with staccato now. It's like, I'm only going to be a part of this if we can keep doing good things, if we can keep this message going forward, if we can keep having uh, you know, allowing me to come have conversations with guys like you and just, you know, use past experiences to hopefully get other people to shortcut to not prosperity, but to efficiency, right? Help younger cops be better cops, help the community understand why do cops do this stuff.

SPEAKER_04 52:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:46

And a lot of times, like, we don't have a good answer, right? Cops do stuff because they're dumb sometimes. They don't know any better. Well, how do we fix that?

SPEAKER_04 52:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:53

How do we educate them? And then I think I've I don't know if I talked to you about it before, but like it's one of my favorite sayings is there's three three pillars on the stool to hold it up policy, training, and supervision. Those three things right there have to be aligned and equal for the base to be strong.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

Absolutely.

Qual Culture Vs Real Training And Metrics

SPEAKER_07 53:09

Right. And all of the other stuff, like when we get into the firearm side, all of the other stuff is so easy nowadays with uh technology to keep an eye on that you can help supervise it and have policy that supports the training that these guys are doing. You can supervise, are they doing what we train them to do? Even in combatives, right? Even in simple arrest techniques. We've talked to our guys a billion times. Like the appropriate way to place handcuffs on someone isn't an arm bar. Armbar handcuffing technique. That is, I don't care if they're compliant. Then they'll comply their souls right into it. You don't have to hurt them to do it, but that's the right way to do it. Well, this guy, you know, because it turns into that just hands behind the back thing, and then they grab a finger and the guy takes off running, right? Right. If you had gone to the now your cuffs are in your hand, you weren't you're but it's like those things like report writing, uh, case law, decision making, all these other things driving can all be reviewed constantly by the supervisor. So when I was part of the use force review boards, I would that's where everything came down to. I'm like, we have a supervisory issue here. Like, this is not the first time this guy has acted this way. Has it ever been addressed before? And a lot of the ones, I think like a lot of the viewers talk about like, you know, you see the clips of a cop acting like an idiot. If you were to say, if you were to bring that clip to that guy's agency and say, hey, we have a clip of one of your cops acting like this, half of them would be like, I bet I know who it is. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Well, how's that possible? How do we know who it is? Because don't you does that mean you're not, you know, this guy's a problem, you're not doing it by it, you're not helping him get to a better level. It's a supervisory issue. So, like, even the combatives, like, if you see a guy get in a fight and he's just doing his best, isn't the time to pull him back in and go, you fucked all this up. You should have done a Uma Plata and right, you know. Good for you for knowing Uma Plata. I like that. You should have, you know, like, hey, what was the decision making that led to this, right? Yeah. Because ever there's always someone out there that will stomp your dick into the dirt. Yeah. Right. There is always somebody.

SPEAKER_02 55:11

Unless you're banning who's 300 pounds and wrestles fucking.

SPEAKER_07 55:14

But banning you, you've been around enough 120-pound tweaker chicks to know that they can be a handful, right? They can bend like bend like thriller, like gumby. Yeah. So, like all those things we can continually keep an eye on. And I think that's the coolest part about technology, that it gives us an opportunity to go to bring someone in and go, hey man, I reviewed some of your BWCs, saw you on a shoplifting, you know, the other week, and your handcuffing techniques were not up to standards. Yes. Make sure you're doing this this way. Yep. It's going to give us an advantage, and it shows the department's trying to help them out because all those things can be trained, but the one we don't get to see is shooting.

SPEAKER_04 55:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 55:50

Like it's just when it happens. And in my old department, I did, I think it was at 160 OIS post-OIS interviews of my department for when I was in firearms. And bring them in, watch their video with them, have a talk with them. What are you thinking? Like, what about here? And it's like, man, this and that. And like really get some insight into what they were feeling in the moment, what was successful, what wasn't successful.

SPEAKER_04 56:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 56:14

Um, and then use that information in training to go, what are we doing now that works? Right. It's he's telling me, yeah, we did this in training and this was helpful for me. What are we not doing in training that they're doing that works, right? Because it doesn't mean it's wrong, especially in combative side. Um, and then what are we doing in training that clearly doesn't work?

SPEAKER_04 56:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 56:34

Like, what are we like we're teaching them this, but they A, they never do it. It doesn't happen. It's a waste of time. What can we be using it better for? It's just actually no blame being placed, taking it all back in and going, what do we do that actually helped him in that? Yeah. Or did he survive that on his own? And we try to tell him, we're like, you can, you don't ever get to what if you're shooting. Every guy would tell that to you. Don't get to what if it you don't get to say, well, if I had done this, this would have happened, right? You can't say that because if you say, Well, if I had done this, and I'll say, well, then this would have happened, right? Those all you can use is is to identify options. That is fine. I I could have done this and I could have done that. Cool. You just leave them there. Don't suppose the outcome. Don't fantasize the outcome of what would have happened if you did it. But it's good to identify other options.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

Which is counterculture, because what do we tell rookies to play the what-if game all the time?

SPEAKER_07 57:29

But it's so it is counterculture, but it's also for that part before something happens, what what ifing it I think help is helpful for them? It's after you shouldn't be what-ifing it. But that's what gets done to them.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

Right.

SPEAKER_07 57:41

Well, you know, the uh when I when I start up the 40 mil program, we 40 mil this guy on the side of the road, he drops, they take him into custody. We had a chief that didn't like it. Why, why didn't they go put hands on him? So, what would you have him do? He's screaming, drunk guy in the middle of the road. They tell him he's under arrest. If he doesn't put his hands up and turn around, they're gonna they're gonna shoot him. And he says, fuck you. And then they shoot him with a 40 mil and it hits him and he falls down and then they take him into custody. Well, I think they could have just put hands on him. I go, and then what does that turn into?

SPEAKER_02 58:11

Throwing 18 punches and he broken hands.

SPEAKER_07 58:14

On a gravel median in the middle of the road.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

And now it looks like it looks 10 times worse because you're beating the shit out of him.

SPEAKER_07 58:19

Oh, yeah, you know, in that case, no, no kidding. Like, don't what if it? Yes, they could have, they absolutely could have gone up and said, hey dude, turn around, and he could have complied. Yeah. But he's he's that's that gauging their capacity to understand, right? What is he telling you he's gonna do? Then believe him. Yeah. Right? You don't know him. Don't you don't know him, don't call him a liar. Yeah. Come over here, I'm gonna fuck you up. Nah, he won't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He probably will. He's gonna try and maybe don't want to deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 58:47

Like use your distance, time distance, and cover, right? We we harp on people about that, but I think cops in one ear they hear time distance cover means take more time, run away, and hide, right? That's not what it means. It means those are three things you can control, right? So I we tell we had DOJ come to Phoenix and sit in our less lethal class. Oh, they did not like it. So I asked them, I said, What's can you define de-escalation? And they were like, Oh, you know, this. And I said, You can de-escalate someone by shooting them through the face with a 308. That is de-escalation. That's not what de-escalation is. No, it absolutely is, is taking a moment of crisis and bringing it back down to a baseline level, right? You think de-escalation means talking. It doesn't. That's crisis communication techniques or a form, a method that could de-escalate something. It could, but you also have the other person that's in this. And we have to take, we have to weigh the community need against theirs and their rights. And if I'm screaming, completely incoherent, drunk, talking to Elvis in the middle of the road, am I a danger to myself? Probably, because I'm not in, I'm not on the capacity to understand what's going on. So maybe we can give that guy a little leeway, but we do, maybe we may eventually have to use force just to help him. Right. Now, if I'm under arrest because I just beat up my wife, and now I'm standing in the middle of the road and I'm like, fuck you, I ain't going to jail. It's like, you are. You are under arrest. We now need to affect that arrest. And I think that's what the community expects from us.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:14

It is time to affect that arrest, not have a two-hour conversation with him about and and hope that it de-escalates just through time while we inconvenience the entire community by blocking off a road.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

Yeah. Because that hesitation ultimately leads to a higher use of force.

Red Dots On Pistols: Adoption And Index

SPEAKER_07 1:00:30

And in jail, yeah, it's that's injuries goes up on both sides of the house. Yep. Chuck Eggard, I think, said it was, you know, it's in the appropriate amount of force used quit sooner tends to save us from using more force later.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:43

Agreed. Is he under arrest? Yes. Then go arrest him.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

Yeah. 100%. Um sorry is a weird tangent. No, no, no. I get it. Yeah. Um, I would like to before we go down the staccato path, I want to get into you being a firearms instructor. So you go through your SWAT thing. Um, obviously you made it. Congrats. Good job. Uh you I'm sure you got some cool stories from that as well. Maybe we'll get into some of those later, but I want to get down into the meat and potatoes. So uh you transition. Um, I don't know if you go immediately from SWAT to firearms instruction, but you get into firearms instruction, and in that you're able to see you're dealing with recruits and you're dealing with in-service. So as a firearms instructor, in what year? About what year? 2019. Okay, so 2019. What did you notice with firearms instruction um that were gaps in training that you that you saw needed to be addressed?

SPEAKER_07 1:01:40

So from afar, I had always seen what I perceived to be gaps in training, right? Like our shoot house was down the back side of the range, and we would see them out there with recruits, you know, shooting little line drills and stuff. And it just really didn't pay it any attention. Um, but you could see it was like, this is lame. This isn't what we're doing. Yeah. Like, why why is what we do different than what they do? Right? Patrol. Yeah, patrol in service recruits, all that. Like, you know, oh, we're not we know we're not more special, right? Like, but why do we do this? Like rifle training for us looks like this. Why does it look like this for patrol? Handgun training looks like this for us. Why does it look like this for patrol? And then, you know, generally it's it's the assumption of you could do better because you know all these answers. And then getting there is kind of like uh it's again, I'm still the new guy now. So now I go to firearms training detail. Now I'm full time training at the academy as an academy staff member, and it does open your eyes up, you're like, oh, it is different. These are not this is not the SWAT team on this range.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:46

Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:47

This is people, some of which who, if you told them, look, you don't have to carry a gun anymore, they'd be like, Thank God. Right? Right. Thank God. Um, and most of them like, yeah, you don't need a gun, right? And I I remember having a detective get mad at me for saying, I because I don't think all detectives need guns. Like, that's just my thought. Like, if you don't interact with the felons on the street, yeah, and you're out taking radio calls and all you do is paperwork. I know that's a lot of work, like it is different. But if you were like, can I hire a guy to do that job? And now we're hiring all these civilian investigators, right? Can we hire someone to do that job who isn't a cop? Yes, then, but still that's not the point. You are a cop, you have to have a gun. And we expect you to be at least this good with it. Yeah. But that care, right, of even the desire to be good with it is when I got to the academy, I'd like, there's people here who plan their failures to have Christmas off. Like, how is this guy so good at scamming the system? I have not heard of that. So think about it. Like you fail your pistol call.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:53

Right. So now you're you fail it, you have to immediately shoot it again. Do your remedial. Do your remedial. If you fail that, you have to come back the next day and shoot your third attempt. Okay. Right? So you shoot your third attempt and fail. Right? So now you can't be the police. Right? So now you can't have a gun. So you have to be off for 30 days or whatever it is while you do remedial training. Oh my God. So you got your remedial training, you're riding the desk, you're doing whatever. And it's like, how do these people all come to the end of the year? And I'm like, well, they in my mind, I'm like, well, they must be putting it off to the end of the year because they're scared, nervous, whatever. And then now when that's when they're forced to do it, they, you know, it's at the end of the year. So December 1st, you know, or you got people coming in like December 28th to shoot their qual. It's like, how is that possible?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:44

And then I realized, no, some of these are just, they're on blue welfare. They're just lazy, don't care if this is part of the plan. You know, they're not, they're not down for catching bad guys. I don't even know what their purpose is, that they get a paycheck.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

Oh my god. So then the question's gonna be like, how or why you as a as a firearms instructor? How come you didn't get those people pushed out as cops? Unions. Oh, that was the catch. They're not that strong in Texas. Texas, they're not even unions, they're associations.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:20

Like no power. I like our we had Phoenix Law Enforcement Association. Um, so it's not like a it's like a bargaining unit, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:28

Um, and they they were formed for a great reason, I think like a lot of unions type things, and they still do great work, but it's one of those things where it's like not everybody needs to be defended. Like, not because right. Look at the case. Give I I take that back. Everyone needs a good uh honest defense. They have a right to a defense, but but we shouldn't be fighting tooth and nail to save people who don't care. Yeah. Like from this job. I talked about on a live before with some friends that like that bottom 10% of your department, the slugs, the like everybody was like, God, if that guy was gone, nobody nobody would know the difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:09

Right? They shouldn't be there, they don't need to be there. Yeah. Your top 10% doesn't even need your help. They're just awesome. Like they're out there crushing it, doing the Lord's work. But that middle group gets swayed too, that middle 80% gets swayed too much by how you treat either end. Yeah. Right. And if you're always defending the dipshit, you know, the guy who fails their call and now it's their third attempt, and they come and fail their fourth attempt, and they can't pass, like, hey, dude, here's a last and final. Either you care enough about this to put your own effort into it and pass, or you're not gonna do it. But we've had people lower iced work like six, seven times. Oh, look, they passed. And that used to drive me nuts, but it wasn't my position to make that call.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:47

Holy shit.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:48

I voiced it. Yeah. I said, this isn't cool.

unknown 1:06:50

Damn.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:51

But wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:53

Yeah. Um, Harrison, I did see that you did the uh the membership uh appreciate that. Sorry, I didn't want to forget you, sir. I really appreciate you throwing out 10 memberships. Um, I'm pretty sure Marine Blood probably didn't get one of those.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

So he already uh thanked Harrison, and Harrison also just said he had to dip out, take care of some personal stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:14

So appreciate you guys. Like I said, we're doing this a little different. We're we're sticking to the interview and we'll get to the questions and all that stuff at the end. So um so as you're you're a firearms instructor and you're seeing the the recruits you're seeing in service, what were one of the things that really stood out with the differences between how they're not doing firearms training like you did in SWAT? Like, what did you notice? What stuck out just too much for you to keep your mouth shut that you thought needed to change?

SPEAKER_07 1:07:47

Because everything was about the qual. It was like just get them to pass qual. Nobody cares. No, you'll see, no one cares. We had a lot of people that were like that. All right, you know, because you were new too. I was new. Yeah. And it was one of those where like these guys have been in firearms living in the land of make-believe for 16 years or whatever, how long they've been down there. Um was just a terrible attitude about people. Like, all right, good luck with that. You're never gonna get that done. Like, we had this old janky truck. Get with the boss. We need a new truck. Hey, let's get a hold of so-and-so, we'll get a new truck with it swapped out, boom, done. Well, good luck with that. You know, now we have two new trucks. It's like, dude, you just have to know people. Right. Know people, know who to call, put it and be nice enough to people and you know, bring them a Starbucks card and say, hey, can we get this taken care of? And it's the one phone call I made, now these are weird stories, but was literally like, she's like, You guys' truck has been overdue for like three years. Just no one's ever done anything. She just needed somebody to yeah, just someone to call down and got a truck for you if you want it. Yeah, here. It was a 2020, whatever big Chevy liftgate truck. Great. We'll take it. Thank you. Um, but yeah, the just get them to pass. You'll you can't do that here. Like, I wanted people to start moving laterally downrange of each other and being able to shoot and move horizontally and just you know, get some movement going on the range, yeah, letting them experience it. But we can't do that with them. Why? Well, they're gonna shoot each other. Well, better here than out on the street, excuse me, with my family.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:11

Yeah.

Building A National Instructor Network

SPEAKER_07 1:09:11

Excuse me. Um, but it was like, yo, you can't do that. Well, what about this? Can we do this? No, AZ Post won't let you. Why not? And everybody like, and I've talked about online before, everybody wants to blame it on post, right? Uh T Cole, right? For you guys. Oh, T Cole says you have to do this, they won't let you do it. I bet if you called down and said, I want to do this, I'll write a lesson plan for it. The answer would be like, Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:35

Yeah. It's it's as long as you're Yeah, nobody wants to champion the cause and they don't want to do the legwork, so they try to find a scapegoat.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:42

Yep. Everything was blamed on AZ Post. AZ Post was tremendous. They were awesome. It's like we're gonna start doing this. Yeah, go ahead. We don't care. Like, meet the minimum requirement of hours.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:54

And make sure you hit all these court mandated things. Shooting at night, shooting at moving targets, make sure you do all that. You know, shooting on the move. Can we do this? Yeah, that's shooting on the move. Go for it. But it was that one lesson plan that was written forever ago by E old firearms instructor, and it was like, that's how he did it. That's how we have to do it. Right. That's how we always done it. Yeah. Press. Yeah. You know, like, oh, like let's get them, let's get them shooting. Let's get them experiencing. Let them let see what the wheels fall off. Like, this is what out of control feels like and looks like. Now, what does it look like when you get back into control? So when the if and when, is it likely that might happen to you in a moment of panic when you walk in in the alley and the guy jumps out of the back of a garbage can and starts literally shooting at you, that you might go, oh fuck, and like pull your gun out and shoot real fast. Is that possible that that could happen? Yes. So we want you to recognize that's probably ineffective. And what does effective look like? It feels and looks more like this when you're getting hits. And that doesn't mean slow down and get your hits, it means be in control and understand and feel what control looks like because it's gonna give you a better result.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:56

Yeah. Yeah. I I think um one of the best lessons that I learned from mutual friend of ours, Chansey Pogue, who is while we're learning the red dot, he's like, Who here has been told not to slap the trigger? And so I was like, fuck, I've been taught that 20 years of law enforcement. That's all I've been taught. And he's like, Come here. So get out on the line in front of everybody. And this is this is the mark of a good instructor. He will put himself on the spot. And he goes, I'm gonna hold the gun. I want you to slap the shit out of this trigger. I'm like, okay, this is interesting. Let's never seen an instructor do this. So I get up there and I'm slapping the fuck out of this trigger. I'm just going nuts. And every round is just on target. I'm like, he goes, get all that shit out your mind. You know, he knows chances. He's like, get all that bullshit out your mind. And I'm like, he goes, What I'm gonna teach you is that you're human and you're gonna have human responses. He's like, I need you to know what you're doing when you're having these human responses to your point. Um, so you recognize that there's issues, uh, shooting and moving is being a big one. Um can you kind of talk about the the commonalities in shootings that get that are involved out in the field versus how we train? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_07 1:12:23

Yeah, there's really no commonality. None at all. The the the commonality of shootings I've observed and interviews that I've done are everything is fast as hell until they get back into control. And the training I see in general in law enforcement is very slow and very accuracy-oriented, which is important, right? Right? We have to have accuracy, we have to have accountability. We have to, but if we if we go fast and lose both of those, what's the sense in either of them? Like you know Rob Latham is?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

No.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:57

Amazing human, amazing shooter. His one of his sayings was aiming is useless. Because if you're just gonna move the gun off the target, why'd you aim it anyway? Right? That was the gist of that thing. Like if you're gonna aim the gun, you might as well move that trigger without disturbing that sight picture. But if you're gonna freak out, and if it's what we see in shootings often is that we're going at like the cyclic rate, we're shooting, they're they're making plastic Jesus scream, hoping the bad man will go away, right? Plastic Jesus. That's what they're doing. You know, help me, help me, help me. Okay, but they're shooting it as fast as they can, it's just ineffective. Yeah, right, because they've never been exposed to shooting fast and they've never been exposed to what their how their body's gonna react. So if we can get them shooting the gun faster, not that we want them to shoot faster, but if we can show them, look how accurate you can still be at speed.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:46

Now, when you go this fast, what happens? Oh, I I can't even see what's going on. Cool. Are you likely to get good results that way? No. So if you see that going on, get it back to where you know what looks good. And again, it doesn't mean slow down and get your hits. It means aim the damn gun and hit what you're aiming at. At whatever speed that may be. It could be in 15 hundredths of a second between shots, and it could be five seconds between shots. But speed, like time, has nothing to do with accuracy in my mind. It has nothing.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:19

Let me ask you this. Like, you guys have steel targets and stuff, right? Yeah. You ever had like the small ones and guys are going ding ding, miss, right? And then they're like, miss, miss. And they go, miss, and they still fucking miss. Yeah right. That's you took more time. Why didn't you hit it? Because you still move the gun.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:34

Right. So time has nothing to do with accuracy. You only need the amount of time. Once that gun's aimed, it's never going to get any better than that. Think about like, yeah. Once the gun, now you're on a red dot, once the dot is over the target where you want to hit, it's probably not going to get better than that. It's just going to sit here and wobble around.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:53

And you have to understand that, yeah, it's wobbling around, but if I move the trigger without changing the way the gun's behaving, it's going to hit right there.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:01

But if I move it, the gun, while I'm moving the trigger, it's going to go off somewhere else, and that doesn't work. So we don't want that. How do we stop that from happening? I don't know. You have to figure that out through trial and error.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:13

Like you have to figure out this is what good for me looks like. And then you have to push it, and the wheels will kind of fall off. And then you kind of don't slow down, but you figure out how to do it right at that speed. And then you push it again. And you try to figure out how to do it right at that speed. Then you push it again. And eventually you're going to get to a point where you just can't get there. But now you're 10 times faster than you used to be with the absolute same level of accuracy and accountability.

Policy, Supervision, And Use‑Of‑Force Reviews

SPEAKER_02 1:15:36

Yeah. I had um, so Brian Stahl. I had we were we were loading and just in between stuff. And I'm I I talk a lot, like whether it's to myself or to other people or whatever. And I'm on the line and I'm I'm reminding myself, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. I just I I had said it. And Brian goes, Levine, what'd you say? I said, I was like, slow, smooth, smooth is fast. And he's like, why? And then he starts challenging me on it. He's like, why can't fast be fast? And I was like, I don't know, because I was taught slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Why are you questioning me talking to myself? You know, I'm giving him shit. And he challenged challenged my way of thinking on that. And he's like, no, fast is fast. He's like, you can be fast. He's like, you don't need to be slow and be smooth. He's like, you can be fast and be smooth. You can be smooth and be uh slow. He's like, but the point is to get you fast and accurate. He's like, so we went down that path, and that's when the whole slapping the trigger thing got brought up with Chansey coming out of the line and all that stuff. I'm like, you guys are blowing my mind. So that brings me to my you got something, Benny? You about to sneeze? I was, I was. Yeah, we're good, we're good. Um, which kind of brings me around to my point. Uh shit, I just lost my train of thought because I was looking at you trying to sneeze. What we're talking about slow, smooth, smooth, fast, uh, transitioning. Oh, trainers. So here you are, you're an instructor, you're you're noticing issues. Something that I really like about you that that I learned from Brian is that you guys got like this coalition of instructors across the fucking nation that nobody's heard of, like I hadn't heard of. And then you guys are changing training across the nation for law enforcement. Can you kind of tell me how that developed and how you got into that?

SPEAKER_07 1:17:34

It's our little secret squirrel group of instructors is literally across the country. Um, and it's dudes who work at academies in a firearms instructor role, um, put together by a mutual friend. And it's just, hey, we're running into a problem with this. How did you guys deal with it? And you can get answers from Phoenix, uh Dallas, San Diego, LA, uh, Nashville, Miami, DEA, FBI, like all these different, even more than that. Canada. Um, here's how here's what we did. Here's what we're doing. This worked well for us. Cool, let me try it. Right? I wrote up a new rifle qual, sent it out to the guys. Have you guys run this? What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:18

So other agencies are running your just to the guys will just run it to do it, to shoot.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:23

That's awesome. Um, the Distinguished Marksmanship program. Like, do you guys have an like where you work? Do you have an expert shooter? Yes. Right. Can you miss for an expert?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:33

Pretty much not.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:33

So it's 100%. Yeah. Right. So ours used to be you had to shoot 90% three years in a row. I'm like, that doesn't make someone an expert.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:41

No.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:41

That you can miss. So, like, how's that an expert? So we took, we didn't want to complicate things, but we just took the regular AZ post qual, but we shrunk the target zone down to a four-inch circle and a two-inch circle. They're already on the target. Just shoot at those when you shoot your qual. So now you're shooting a qual at a finer target area. And if guys can score this the standard for that, then they get their expert pin and a shift to PA time off. So we give them a shift of time off. Oh, nice. Because you can't give them money, but you can get time, which is like money.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:11

But hey, here's a whole shift. Here's a whole shift off. So like five percent of the department gets that. Um I would never.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:17

Well, now that red dots are a thing, I would get that. It's a challenge. It's a challenge. I can shoot 100 with a red dot now. In a four-inch circle. Oh, fuck yeah. Right. Oh, bro.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:28

I'm telling people like the red dot is a good thing. It's not hard. No. That's the thing. Is it is not it is not hard, but it's enough of a challenge. And it's we were trying, we're like, give guys an incentive. And you're never gonna you're you can use like people are motivated by you know attention or money or pins or things like that. Like find the things that motivate your people. Whatever motivates them. Whatever motivates you. And our job as coaches is to help bring them along. Yeah. You will absolutely always have some who do not care.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:57

And I think our group is probably split on that. We're like some of me, some of us are like, no, you have to keep trying. And some of us are like, if I can't help them, I'm gonna put more effort into the people I can.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:08

And that's kind of where I was. I was like, if you do not give a shit, like if you literally don't care, then cool. I will spend time with this guy over here who's trying to get better.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:18

Yeah. Yep, absolutely. Um sorry, I was banning, I saw you sent something. I thought, my bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:28

And I know we're not doing questions till later, and and forgive me, but what Mr. Bill Fold set up here, a second from the top, is a question I know is resonating with a lot of our viewers right now. And I know we're not doing, but this is I've got it screenshotted if we need to do it later, but this is right now in the conversation that we're doing. I think that this needs to be whatever you want. Yeah, drop it. So it's uh whoever said fast is fast seems wrong to me. Accuracy is king, and I would prefer four slow and smooth, accurate hits than rushing to mag dump nine hits and miss more than they hit. So I understand where he's coming from. He's he's a Marine as well, okay, uh retired Marine as well. Um, but in that mentality in the time that he and I and you were in the Marine Corps, that we we were. We were a little bit more time on target coming in. We were all iron sights at the time. RMR, the red dots changed the game a lot in this, which people don't put into facts. The small agency I was with, you had to have 100% just as a patrol officer annually to be able to patrol the streets. And when the chief came at me with that 100%, and it's only 50 rounds, 100%, um, all the way back to the 20-yard line with pistol. And I went out there and shot the drill several times, and I've been shooting for a long time, been firearms instructor for a long time. I could do it, but then I wanted to go get my rookie guy out there that only shot when it was time to shoot for the annual and was really mighty with the pen, but not so great with the firearm. Um brought him out there, and it literally took two and a half to three hours working body mechanics with him. Uh, we weren't red dot, the the the city did not allow it at the time. This is just about five years ago. Um, but however, even with iron sights, I was able to get him working with body mechanics to get that 100%. So to Mr. Billfold, even at a small agency in North Texas, I was able to get my guys to shoot fast while being accurate with body mechanics, different than what you and I and Chris and everybody did in the Marine Corps back in the back in the 90s. Um, but Chris, if you wouldn't mind shedding some light on that question, I don't know if you can see it in front of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:41

Uh, I don't have it up there, but I think I got the gist of what you're saying.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:46

It's it's not it, I just think it's a wrong way of thinking. That's as blunt as I can put it. Um, speed has nothing to do with accuracy. So that's the I see his point though, like four well-aimed perfect hits, right, versus nine all over the place.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:04

I agree with him. Yes. But why wouldn't I want those four perfect hits in a tenth of the time? I want the four perfect hits. I want absolute accountability with maximum accuracy at maximum speed, right? I want the blending of speed and accuracy because you can be too slow. Yes. Right? You can be too slow. And you can that part of that slow can come from missing, right? The number one cause of reloading is missing in the police world, like my buddy Matt says. But that that idea that I think that's where it gets lost is we're not trying to teach cops to shoot the gun fast. We're trying to show them how fast and accurate they can shoot it. And then to blend using those different schemes at different distances and different target difficulties. What do I need to see to be perfectly accurate at speed? I need it to look like this.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:55

Right. So that the competitive side of it, when we're really trying to push practical training with law enforcement, like practical, and I say this every time I do like a talk of these, practical shooting is not competitive shooting. These are just my words, right? Practical shooting is not competitive shooting. Competitive shooters train in a practical matter to get better at their sport, right? Practical shooting is what helps them be good at their sport. Practical shooting is what increases survivability in law enforcement. I believe that wholeheartedly. Using those methods of balancing speed and accuracy, where absolute accuracy, absolute accountability, and absolute speed all get blended together the best they can based on the individual's ability, I think is going to be huge for us. But we have to let them explore and let the wheels fall off so they can recognize it and they can actually see at 25 yards at a man-sized target at a distance like this. I need the world to look like this. And when I'm firing the gun, I need it to be recoiling in this manner. If we're at your distance, you and I are a couple yards apart, I can shoot the gun as fast as I want to, and I'm not gonna miss.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:01

And still aiming.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:04

My bad. You know what I mean. I don't need to get a sighting picture.

De‑Escalation, Time‑Distance‑Cover Reframed

SPEAKER_07 1:25:07

I don't need to go press like that. I can just look where I want them to go, and for better or worse, the bolts will go where you're looking.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:12

Yep. I I found uh in and to Mr. Billfold's question and point, um, I'm not a firearms instructor. So I'm going off of how I've been instructed. So if I speak improperly, let's just take it for what it is. I'm not a firearms instructor. I'm not good like these guys are. However, the way that it was explained to me is that I can be slow and smooth and punch a hole like this in my target, or I can be fast and still hit my target, all within the areas that I'm trying to hit and and lose a little bit of that accuracy. The accuracy is still there. You're still hitting vitals. I'm still punching, it just doesn't look pretty on the paper. It doesn't look as pretty as punching a hole. And I think that's what they were trying to get me away from was you don't need this hole, you need to hit these vital areas. And if you can get that first fast accurate round is the one that matters because if you're behind the curve, we're always behind the curve when it comes to a shooting. We're reacting to a stimulus, and the person that's given the stimulus is ahead of us. So that's what I'm getting to. Uh I'm I I understand my words may have messed you up, Mr. Belfold. That's not what I was trying to get into.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:34

Is it fair to say that like that's a good way to understand? Because I what I don't want anyone to think I'm saying is spread the bullets around. I hate that.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:45

If I could, if we had this, this was the target. And anything that hit this was a hit, right? We stuck it on there and we said, go. And you were like, all right, I'm aiming, and you're worried about the donut hole. Yeah. Right? You're like, I'm gonna stack my bullets up in the donut hole. Okay, I'm gonna aim. And I've already shot this badge five times.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:03

Sounded so dirty when you said that, right? Yeah, you keep going. Say it slower and dirtier.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:08

Does that make sense? So you're you're trying to stack them through here. I've already hit this five times while you started aiming. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. Put five bullets in the badge. And you're like, yeah, but your group's bigger. Okay, but this is what I was told to hit. Now, if I have four and three of my rounds go out here wide of it, I miss two times.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:26

And you get your fifth round done in time, you win. Right? It's who hit the badge five times fastest, right? It's who hit the target the fastest. So we're not trying to spread them out, but if I can shoot it, let's say you do it in two seconds, one, two, three, four, five, and I do it in one second, but I got misses. I I don't want to go to two seconds. I want to try to figure out how to get my hits on this in one second.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:47

And I may never get there, but I'm that's the goal. Yeah. Because I can always go to two seconds and take more time. But we've already, I've already discussed before time has nothing to do with accuracy.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:57

Yes, but ultimately, I mean, in the bigger picture of things, your rounds are hitting the tar, they're hitting the overall target. We're just finite and fine-tuning that shooting. And so, yes, I'm with you on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:10

And Ryan Landis said, shoot that dirty dono.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:16

You dirty sons of bitches out there. Um okay. So you got your uh the secret society of of you know firearms instructors going on out there, and you guys are all collectively getting together and making I would say firearms instruction improve nationwide. Oh, I think so, yeah. To the point where the red dot becomes available. Can you kind of go down the epiphany of the red dot? Because I want people to understand for the longest time the military was they they pretty much kicked off the red dot for the rifle, but to think of it on a pistol was so taboo. I mean, if you were to even have I remember having this conversation, I'm like, you know, early 2000s, I'm like, well, we have it on a rifle. Why the fuck don't we put it on a pistol? Like, we can put it on a pistol, that don't make any sense. And it was even taboo to talk about. And here we are today, we're still fighting this battle. Maybe you tell me. Um academies don't even want to get their guys red dots. And to me, going through a two-day course changed my entire world. I went from a 92 to a 96 average shooter to a hundred all the time. I shot a 92 this year because I am not if I have a malfunction, if I have a failure to feed or whatever it is, I'm not the guy that's gonna raise my hand. I'm going to eat the rounds I lose. That's what I did. I lost six rounds. Like, and then I I threw a couple, but that's fine because I try to shoot fast. But I I lost a bunch of rounds. Fix that shit and get back to shooting. Yes, fix it and get back to shooting. I'm not going to leave that on the instructor. Uh, and if you're an officer out there that raises your hand and be like, oh, I should get to make these rounds up. No, fuck you. Nope. Sorry. You don't get to make them up in real life. Bannon, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:08

No, here's what I'm thinking, and I don't know if Chris holds the same thought process as I do. I believe it was 2014 or 2015. Paris Island introduced the red dot, the M16, I believe it was the A4 at the time. We were on the M16A2 when I went in in 97. However, the A4, and it was 2014 or 15, I'll have to look it up to be true. They introduced a red dot, and Marines are known for shooting iron sights all the way up to 500. Um, iron sights, laying in the prone position, being accurate with it. Um, and it was the first time I shot a rifle. Seriously, was when I went to Marine Corps boot camp, and I used the body mechanics that they taught me. Um, and I did very well. And I be I came out of there as a as a rifle expert and then went into uh Marine Security Guard school and we all we had to go to the M9, Beretta, uh all iron sights, nothing, you know, back then there was nothing but iron sights. I became a pistol expert. The pistol is a different animal and a different beast than the rifle. But my thought was when the red dots went in, and I was still ground pounding as a patrol officer in Haltham City, Texas at the time, and I and I saw that in Parade magazine, and I thought that our training was getting weaker. I did not, I was not educated on the red dots as some other of my cohorts in law enforcement of how important they are and how much of a better shooter they made. My question is, is Chris, did you have the same thought when you started seeing this red dot come out, or were you on the cusp of the training uh being in SWAT as long as you were to where you were introduced to that young in your career when it first became available, or were you against it when you first saw it?

SPEAKER_07 1:31:53

I don't think I was ever against it, especially rifles. Um, yeah, when I went in the Marine Corps in '94, it was irons. Um 94?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:02

Yep. Holy shit.

Staccato HD: Why The Platform Matters

SPEAKER_07 1:32:03

So, like this, I want to explain it like this. I was like in 50 grades. You have fourth grade. You have electro optic and uh etched glass, and you have all these different reticles. You have sighting systems of which irons is one of them, right? All they do is confirm for you where the gun is aimed, if they're zeroed, right? They are all the same. So they're just telling you that's what the gun is aimed at, right? If it's zeroed, it tells you that's what the gun is aimed at. None of them are more accurate than the other. I believe personally, on close distance things, the red dot is just easier once you understand it, easier to use in more situations. Right? So if it's a bright, sunshiny day, I can go out with an AR-15 and iron sights and shoot probably the same group I can with my one to six on it. Because it's within the capabilities of the gun and myself, I just need a naming reference, right? A lot of people see the red dot on the rifle at first, it was like, oh, we don't need this hokey, you know, newfangled shit that we had in Vietnam, by the way. Um, that people were kicking ass with in Vietnam. But both eyes looking at the target, I just move it up, and the the thing we get lost on is looking at the dot and treating it like it's an iron sight, right? Treating it like that hard front sight focus. You don't need to look at the dot, you just need to be aware of it, right? You're just aware where the dot is in relation to the point you want to hit on the target, and the dot's gonna tell you whether it's cool to move the trigger or not without changing the behavior of that dot or crosshair or anything else. Same thing with iron sights, but if you're doing it the traditional way of a hard focus on the iron, the front iron, it makes it more difficult to do at speed. So a lot of people like I shoot irons both eyes open, just staring at the target, and I line these blurry bumps up because without these, I couldn't see my finger in front of my face anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:49

I learned that in the military, like it was two-eye shooting. That's how I was taught.

SPEAKER_07 1:33:54

And I think with rifles, we were quicker to adopt them because it just seemed to make sense. It's like you mount the rifle a certain way, you're like, oh, look, there's a dot there. Once we started putting them on pistols, which wasn't us and cops or the military, it was the competition guys, but once we tried to use that method, we started putting stuff on pistol, guys would bring it up, like, I can't find the dot, without understanding that that's because you suck at shooting. Period. It is because you suck at presenting the gun. How dare you? If you had been bringing the gun up perfect every time and you just brought it up there and your index was that well developed, you would see a dot. Yeah. But you don't because you're bringing the gun up, probably a little muzzle up, like Andy, especially with Glocks, right? I love my Glock. But if I first time I ever put a dot on it, I was doing the old wiggly fish thing because I had no clue what I was doing. Yeah. Right? No clue. And what that told me is I presented my gun like dog shit and just relied on iron aligning those irons to fix it in the end. Once you have that presentation built where the gun just comes up, there's a dot every time. I still suck at it.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:54

And it's it's I shoot hundreds, but I still suck at it because I I'm good enough for my qualms, but I recognize there's always an adjustment period.

SPEAKER_07 1:35:04

You still come up and go, crap, where's my dot? Yes. Okay. What and this is gonna be mean, but you suck at shooting. I not but I know that. Yes, because I don't practice. Wouldn't it? Would you love to just be able to, no matter what you were doing and whatever orientation your head was or your body was, to just bring the gun up and there's a dot in front of your face.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:22

When I was using your gun, just the we can't do it on the live, but he's got he brought one of his staccatos with us, uh, H the HD, what one was it? C36. C36, yeah. It was awesome, by the way. Um, I didn't get to shoot it, but I got to play with it. So uh I played with this gun in my studio, guys. Um but I I presented, I go, where the fuck's the dot? Oh, there it is. Like that. That's but I know that about myself. I'm I'm I'm okay with that because I I don't have the time to practice to be super awesome at it. That I would let me take that back. I do have the time. You know, all it takes is me sitting here practicing on a calendar just five minutes a day. Yes, if that I that was a stupid thing to say, and I knew it when it started coming out of my mouth. That's not what I meant. What I meant is I don't get to the range enough.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:07

So one thing I want to give you is with older guys like us, and I because I had the same problem, and I'm sure you had the same problem, I'm sure you had the same problem, is where's that damn dot? Like as we suck at shooting.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:16

But when our new recruits who've never shot and all they learn is the dot. Yeah, then they're like instinctual. This becomes, they just know get the gun up to here. And their body, this is just where they bring the gun. And then we get into let's turn the dots off. Let's oh, you're only allowed to use irons now. We we don't, we never do irons, then dot. We shoot dot. We shoot a group with their irons, we turn their dot on, we zero it, we make sure everything's good. Trigger drill one. We're like, we're pulling the trigger, they're aiming, everything's good. We shoot dots only, dots all the way through. Then we turn their dots on.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:48

You're pulling the trigger?

SPEAKER_07 1:36:49

Oh, yeah. What? Trigger drill one. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:53

Okay. That's well, I never you aim the gun, I pulled trigger. I'm sure my guys are doing that too. I just I'm not there.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:58

I don't know that. That's what you did with Chauncey. Yes. You pulled the trigger, he aimed the gun. So that way you know I'm aiming and you have no control over the movement of the gun. The trigger's just gonna go, and your whole job is to aim it. We try to tell him that's your job. Your job is to aim the gun, move the trigger.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:12

Holy fuck.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:13

That's brilliant. But then we then we turn the dots off. Then they go to irons, no change. And I don't know what they're doing with the irons, I'll be honest. Yeah, because I was like, we got to give them a whole class. I'm like, fuck it, let's just let them shoot. And we just turned our dots off and they're running around ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, because they have a great index built and they know how the irons work. They know they line the bumpy ones up and stare at the target. So they're staring at target, still shooting with irons just fine. That's brilliant. Really? But it's because that's what they learned on. Right. Yeah, yeah. They don't have these mistakes or these habits or these things that we used to do where you'd like drive the gun out, look at front sight posts and drop it in. Yeah. They don't have any of that. They're not looking in the gun for the answers, they're looking to the target to have something show up.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:56

The worst thing that ever happened to me was learning how to shoot pistols from the military. That was the worst thing that ever happened to me because I had a lot of bad habits to break. Um, now, luckily, I don't know why I'm this way. I'm just wired this way. I've always had the uh mindset of this person knows better than me, so let me follow what they're telling me. That that's in policing, that's rare. Um Banning, you you tell me if you've had a different mind or uh experience, but most of the time you you go to firing or whatever, there's always some sort of mentality I already know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. Like and that drives me up to fucking.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:38

But that's a burden of the instructors. If you're if you're just regurgitating things you don't clearly understand, they are looking at you at you. It's like this guy has to know better than me. He's the instructor.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:48

Yeah. And and for me, I've just been I just listen, you know, fucking old weaver stance and all that stupid shit that I used to do. Um, you know, going through literally, and this was four years ago, y'all. Red dot class changed my entire world. Like changed my entire world as far as pistol grip, like having that, you know. I used to over-squeeze with my dominant hand because I that's how I was taught. You gotta get a good grip in there and get that beaver tail and all this shit. And then somebody comes in and goes, No, you actually your non-dominant hand is the one that needs to have a really good grip, and then you know, it go from there. And then I'm like, Well, you're the boss. Let me let me try it, let me see.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:35

And then at least you were willing to try it. Yes. And that's I used to do that, go down the line, go, hey, can I can I ask you something? Can I work on some of you? Well, I just I do it this way because it's been work, it works for me. And I like in my brain, like my little Chris inside my brain is like, Well, I wouldn't be here if it clearly worked for you, right? Yeah, like this is in this is during in-service training. Like, clearly, like clearly it doesn't work, yeah. Otherwise, I wouldn't be, I'd be like, Well, good shooting. And I'd just wander off to the next guy. Right.

Confidence, Accountability, And Fewer Shots

SPEAKER_02 1:40:00

Because you know, like it's it's not worth the you don't have the time in the day. You get too many people, the other people you got to go through. Put your energy and that's something this is kind of a side thing for you, but that's one of the things I've learned with doing this podcast for the last five years. Is that I'm emotionally invested in what I do. I want to help improve law enforcement, I want to help improve um the way law enforcement interacts with the community. I see these bad videos of cops, I see these good videos of cops. I I'm really into what I do. I wouldn't have invested as much time in this if I didn't. Banning wouldn't be a part of it if I was half-hearted, because banning is a person that follows true heart. Um and in doing this, I have realized like I don't know everything, obviously. And I have to have that open mind to be able to adjust and adapt to the things that we're seeing. And that mindset of, well, this is the way I've always done it, or this is like you're not we're never going to improve with that mindset. And in doing the podcast, I have learned from guests, I've learned from the the community, things that they've they've presented and and perspectives and all of that. And that's how I look at this. What you're telling me is being able to shed a perspective and focus on the ones that are willing to have an open mind about it, otherwise you'll you'll get stuck in this stupid loop. And I I started that, and that's kind of where I was going with this, is I I kind of got somebody would talk shit, not talk shit about me, but like, no, that won't fucking work. And I'm like, no, no, no, like this is why, and this is and I get so emotionally invested into what they're saying, and I'm like, I'm wasting my time. Like this person, they're not open to hearing anything I'm saying. And why am I waiting? I gotta get to the masses, to the ones that are willing. And and that's kind of the community we fostered on here. Is now I've got I've got the masses that are willing to at least have an open mind. And they, the community themselves, they take care of the ones that are that I normally would fixate on because I'm like, I gotta help them. I gotta, I gotta help them understand where I'm thinking you're wasting your time, brother.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:22

A lot of people you are, yeah. It's that kind of that baseline Socratic method, right? Like, is there anything I can do or say that would convince you otherwise? Yes. No, well then let's discuss something else. Yeah, yeah. Because this is a waste of time. You want to talk about pizza?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:36

Yeah. I think the the the entire panel, all three of us here can agree. When you have a veteran police officer and you introduce something new, you're gonna get pushback. They're comfortable in their ways. And I'm and all I'm speaking of is your basic patrol officer out there that has been on. It for 10, 12 years. They're on this line. And then something comes down from administration. We're going to do this at firearms qualification. You've got your master of firearms instructor send an email out. When you come out, be prepared to do this. It's the oh God, why are they changing it up? Everything they taught us last year. It works great. And this and that. And why do we have to? And then they come with that mentality to the range. And then guys like Chris and I are dealing with them. We've got this new technology. We want to make the entire station, everybody that works there, better. And we've got this great stuff. And it's, you know, we may we may have done some classroom before this. Now we're going to do some practical application out here. And you just got these naysayers. And that's not just law enforcement. I mean, that's a lot of careers out there. But you have these people when something new comes in, cops are the world's worst. It's like we want to change something for the better. And they're the first ones to go, no, the old way is the best way. And I mean, am I right or am I wrong on that? I mean, that that happens a lot in a profession.

unknown 1:43:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:57

We say that because that's the only that's the the profession we're amongst and used to the most. But you know, like nurses and doctors, they're the same. Lawyers, they're like, this is how we do it. I don't want to do. We're just people. Yeah. Like people in general are fucking idiots. Yeah. Right? Like in general, we're all just dumb and we're trying to just get by. But I think most people want a better world. Like they just want a better life. And if you at least give them a reason, especially with the younger generation, hey, like you said, but right, here's how we're doing things at firearms this year. The old guys are like, fucking bruh, but they're so used to it, they ain't gonna say shit. The younger is like, why are we doing that? At least have an answer. Yes. Right? Hey, in the past 12 shootings we've had, we've observed this in low light environments. We want to make sure everybody has a better understanding and has a chance to demonstrate it to us and yourselves of not the same as this shooting, but at least in that environment. Yeah. Oh, that makes sense. Hard to argue.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:54

I think the reason that was such a pre-digital mindset. Uh uh give I'll go. That's probably the route, is because we didn't have the answers to the why. And so what would we say? Do it as I say. Yeah. Like, don't ask why, just fucking do what I say. Well, this is the information era. Like, we you know, we got AI now, we got all sorts of things. Like the the answering the why is easy, it should be easy. And so when you get the generation that's asking why, mixed with the generation that was raised that you don't ask why. Well, there's where you're gonna get your conflict. But because they keep asking why, I think we are finally pushing past that point where we're like, we need to be able to answer that.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:42

Like, yeah, and I really enjoy them. Like these and that's like it shows me you care. Well, I've said this before, like, guys like, oh, this is fucking this new generation. Like, I was this new generation because I was at my dad's cops. Like, I was this new generation, and so was he for the guys pre previous to him, and somehow we're all still here doing a good job, right? Right. The new generation is not retarded, right? They view the world in a different way, they require different interactions, but they're smart as shit. They still they're still hard ass men waiting to do dangerous, violent work. Yep, if you put them up to it and you let them, they will go do the work. That's what it still impresses me, and women, right? Just because they're they they're different and they are different. My little younglings out there from back home. Yeah, you fuckers are different. But I love them and I think they love me. That's we had so much fun. And then we have our usual suspects who are just always at the range. Yeah. Right? They're coming in. Can I get some ammo? Yeah, go ahead. And they go out and shoot. But they are investing in themselves, they're interested in it. They found something that they can improve on, and we're we've given, I think we did a great job at my agency of giving them a reason to take pride in what they're doing. Yeah. And showing them, hey, just come, here's what we want you to do. Yeah, yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:57

I think I I tried very hard and intentional. You have to be intentional. That's a very good phrase I learned a long time ago. Be intentional in how you approach the younger generation. If you come in there and you don't have any intentionality in how you're going to talk to them and understand them, it's not gonna work. But being intentional of understanding and knowing that, okay, they ask why. Why does that bother you?

SPEAKER_07 1:47:26

Answer that. They can sniff bullshit from a mile away. Yeah. And that's I think a problem we have with a lot of instructors in law enforcement is it it isn't generally a product of the quality of the instructor, is the tenure. Well, it's time. It's time for that guy to go there. He's gonna, it's a retirement gig.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:47:43

So, but these young guys, these young guys and gals, if if you haven't taken the journey for yourself to understand why you're doing what you're teaching them, they're gonna sniff it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 1:47:53

You have to understand. That's how you explain something to somebody. Well, I've been doing, you know, I've been practicing, I've been trying this, and for me, this is what worked, and here's what I discovered. You can have a conversation with them, not just, well, the lesson plan says this. Yeah. And that's what a lot of guys do is the lesson plan.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:06

Yep. And if the, I mean, it's pretty easy, and you guys will hear it from us. Um, if you if that's that's the mentality of your instructor, it's time for somebody different. Uh, same with grappling. If I if I ever go to a place and like, well, this is this is how we teach it. If that's what their answer is, I'm out. This is how we teach it. No, I need an instructor that can adapt and overcome a situation and and fit it to whatever scenario or narrative that I have to bring to the table because that's life. And that's the same thing in police work. You tell me that your left eye is lazy and Caliwampus, whatever it is, like, all right, I gotta adapt to that as an instructor. Like, how do I help this person with crazy eye?

SPEAKER_07 1:48:48

Uh you absolutely do, especially with red dots. Exactly. But you guys, you guys went occluded, right? Yes. Yeah. So if you put the occlusion on there, you've got at least one person every class is like, what the hell? They're shooting over here to the left. All right. Here's why this is happening to you. And at least you can explain it to them.

Constitution, Case Law, And Training Gaps

SPEAKER_02 1:49:04

My favorite part about shooting red dot was when they put the uh we got the broken um uh simulation of the red dot where it's the glass is broke and the red dot itself doesn't work, and you have to shoot. And I'm like, this ain't gonna fucking work. Like, we're done. And then you learn you can use the whole housing system as itself as a a way to aim. And I was like, and I'm shooting right on top. I was shot actually really accurate, surprisingly. For better or worse, the bullets go where you're looking. Exactly. And so I was like, that's when I had that's what instilled the confidence in the the tool. That's that really helped me. So um, okay. I want to get into because I want people to be able to ask questions too, but um, we usually go two, two and a half hours. Uh obviously, we're many. Oh, we've been rocking rolling, yeah. We're about at 140, I think. So um, in in the instruction part, uh, you're getting with all these people from across the nation. You guys are troubleshooting, you're like, okay, here's the problems we're seeing. Uh, shooting and moving, obviously. I think that's one of the biggest developments. Red dot, shooting and moving. Those are the two big breakthroughs. So, can you kind of get into a problem that you noticed where you guys got into red dot, and then a problem that you noticed that forced you to get into actual movement and what the results were that you saw from that?

SPEAKER_07 1:50:29

Well, the movement came from just reality, um, observing body worn camera um as part of the job.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:39

So part of what you're because I I want to also get into how we can improve other firearms instructors out there. You weren't just a firearms instructor that was standing on the line making sure everybody passed. You're you're proactively looking at incidents and analyzing them and researching and trying to figure out what are commonalities, what are things that we're seeing in real life versus what we're training versus how how do we adapt to that?

SPEAKER_07 1:51:08

Yeah, so I was a board a board member of the training review committee. So commander, myself, one of our lieutenants, sergeants, and a group of us reviewed every OIS.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:20

Is this as an officer? As an officer. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_07 1:51:23

So we reviewed every OIS. We sat in this room and we would watch, you know, we listen to the entire dispatch tape. We'd watch the whole BWC, not just what's released on from our PIO.

unknown 1:51:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:51:35

After it, everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:36

Yeah, because you're seeing the mindset of the officer as he's getting to an incident.

SPEAKER_07 1:51:39

That's a big deal. And then getting to actually interview the officers in there as as they came to the range to see me. Um not looking for like, okay, this happened in a shooting. Now we got to like stop everything, and the knee jerk reactor kicks off and we start doing new training. No. It's like we're just keeping an ongoing list of like, here's what we're doing in training, how does it support? Here's what we're seeing, here's what we're seeing. This is now we've had seven shootings, you know. Like, I don't remember what we had last the year I left, like 20. What we had a bunch of shootings, but they were all very standard. Where it was like, yep, like everyone different, but in the end, the fundamentals that won were finding a stable position and delivering accurate fire. All of almost all of them involved movement prior to shooting. So moving, then deciding to shoot.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:52:30

Right? So guns out, they're like, oh, and they're someone's moving, running to the right, you know, 10 yards, you know, move backing up three feet. Like they, there's some sort of movement that as they get a try to triangulate the guy or as they're moving into position and seeing the guy, it involves movement.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:47

Um and traditionally, what were we training prior to that?

SPEAKER_07 1:52:51

Standing still. So just stand there, deliver rounds, stand there, deliver rounds. Which in the end, moving, stopping, getting stable, and shooting is that, but it doesn't allow the the old way of like next time you guys shoot, watch people on the line when they're like, all right, here we're gonna do a drill. You'll see people adjust their feet and get perfect, right? Yeah. And we're I we had a dirt range and people would like scuff their feet, like, are you gonna go running somewhere?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:18

Like if they're pinching on the mound, they're they're digging in.

SPEAKER_07 1:53:20

So everybody gets kind of like, okay, they get lined up and now they run the drill. When you have people move into a position, it very seldom do they end up perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:53:30

Right. And but we can use that to say, how could you end up in a better position? When you decide to arrive, like, what's a good way to arrive into a position? Taking all these cues and lessons we've learned from the competitive world where they're trying to do it as fast and efficient as possible. How do they enter a position? How do they exit a position? Why do they do that? Why don't they just stand sideways? Because that's the direction they're facing. No, they turn their body back towards it, they get very low, they absorb the energy, and they're aiming the gun before they've even stopped.

unknown 1:53:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:53:57

Because they've already decided to shoot. And now they're seeing that sight picture develop and refine as they come into position and they can shoot whenever they want. They've already made that decision. So we we noticed that they're a lot of movement involved in these shootings and varying distances, but the accuracy is what finally won. And we found that guys, one in particular, he's they pull up to a domestic violence, he's walking up the driveway, the guy exits the front door and starts shooting at them and then running across the garage. So his gun comes out as he's backpedaling out of the driveway and he fires like five rounds as fast as he can shoot that gun. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Does not hit the dude, and tells himself in his head when I interviewed him, he's like, I just told myself, like, aim fucker. And he grabbed a hold of the gun and got his dot where he wanted to, and then boop, boop, boop, boop, hit the guy and dropped him as he's running and shooting at him. But it was not a slow pace of fire. He just got into control and moved the trigger when his vision told him the dot is where it needs to be. Move the trigger. Um, but all of that was a backpedaling movement around a trailer that he was not aware of whatsoever. Like you don't train someone for that. But if you the more you get them moving in training, the more, the easier it is for them to just their body to be comfortable with it happening.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:15

Okay. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:17

I I that's I'm I'm trying to inst this is what I this is the point of this conversation, guys. I'm trying to instill confidence that we have people out there that aren't just taking everything at surface level and aren't just doing the status quo. We're actively looking into law enforcement issues, things that we see as a problem and trying to fix them and make them better. Um one of the rose-colored glass views that I have is that there are plenty of people just like me that are constantly trying to improve law enforcement. And this is an example. I we we don't need rounds going out there carelessly. That's obviously a big big deal that we want to and we want to improve. And how do we improve? We got red dots now. We've got shooting and moving. These are these are all things that we're trying to do. So you go through, um, I want to transition from finishing or retiring to staccato when you first started in law enforcement with the range versus when you left, where did the shooting requirements where were they at and where did they end at as far as accuracy and um just a difference in in training?

SPEAKER_07 1:56:34

Well, I think they were huge, and it wasn't because of just me. We had 13 full-time firearms instructors. Um we whittled that down over time and brought in people who were on board. Kind of like SWAT. Right. Yeah. It's like here's what we're doing now. This is this is what's expected of you if you want to be an instructor here. This is what we're teaching. This is why it's important. Um the old days of like, oh, they're too dumb for this. Just take it out of your head. Let them show, let them show us they're too dumb, but let's push them all to the maximum. And then we've also learned how to communicate with command because it was like, well, how are the call scores? That's all people think about. Well, the average prior to changing up training was like 91% or whatever for a 40 recruit class. Okay. And now we're at like 100%. Holy 98, right? Yeah. So up basically everybody passing and everybody passing with high scores. And they're like, oh, it must be the red dot. No, it's it's the method, it's the it's the it's the individual.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:57:40

We're giving them a system that makes it easier in different lighting conditions and different environments to always have something to verify what your gun is aimed at. And it can be very accurate, but it's the method in which we're training them that's gonna then translate. We're pushing them. We don't by the time I left, we never mentioned the qual to the recruits. They all knew it existed, but we never shot any of the drills or mentioned it to them. Okay. They always asked, When are we gonna do the qual? When are we gonna do the qual? We're like, don't worry about the call. We push them harder and faster on everything we did in training from day one. So when they did start finally shooting the qual, they're like, This is easy. Yeah. Like this is how much time do we have? They're like, Holy crap. Like, break the boom. It's like when you get on the 25 and they're like, You got you got 10 seconds or whatever it is, and you're like, Holy shit. Now they're like, Oh, I got all the time in the world. I know I don't need more time because Chris said time doesn't equal accuracy, but this I can now make sure I have perfect sight pictures every time I press a trigger. Now I know I'm not gonna move the gun when I shoot.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:58:33

And reality may allow you that. And we want them to understand that. We're like, there's dude, there's instructors out there that say shit, like, you're not gonna see your sights in a gunfight. And I know Chuck Pressburg said it one time, and it's like, I agree with you completely. You're not because you suck at shooting, right? You're not gonna see your sights in a gunfight. Don't tell someone else what they're gonna see. You're gonna have tunnels like, no, I've seen my sights in every freaking gunfight. Yeah, right. I have seen that I have seen my sights, my friends have seen their sites, officers do see their sights. Do some not see them? Absolutely. Yeah, right. But telling people things like that just perpetuates BS.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:08

Yep.

Community Questions: Duty To Intervene

SPEAKER_07 1:59:08

Let's push them. Let's push them in scenarios of shooting, not scenarios, but like arrays of targets that they have to shoot as fast as they possibly can. They're like, I don't even know what was going on. Cool. What were the results we got? They weren't good. Now shoot it. Make sure you give me alphas on this one. Boom, boom, boom. How'd that feel? It felt really slow. Think you can go faster? Oh, yeah. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Cool. Hey, we only got one Charlie on that one. But that was way better. Yeah, you got the whole thing done eight seconds faster. Like, and you threw one Charlie. I'll take that.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:59:38

Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:59:38

Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:59:40

Well, when I left, it wasn't it wasn't just me, it was the entire crew that was on board. Yeah. But we just took everything, turned it on its head, and just let them run, doing stuff. And I'll show you some videos afterwards. I've shown other people like, oh, we would never let our recruits do that. That's dangerous. They're like running behind each other with guns, shooting plate racks, not past each other. Yeah. We're just moving amongst each other.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 1:59:59

Moving amongst, you know, no shoot targets. Realistic. It's realistic. Yes. They have to understand that this is just a tool that you're going to use in defense of yourself or someone else. Yeah. Right. And it just, you have to be good with it.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:00:14

Training on foot.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:15

Oh, go ahead, Benny.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:16

I was just saying you get you have to train as you fight. This whole shooting at a paper for this 50-round qual annually across the country, the basic very it's not enough. If we're not training as it actually unfolds out there on the street per se, you're not doing any justice to your patrol or anybody else at your department or the people that you're you're sworn to protect.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I will say where I'm at, we uh You guys are next level. Yeah, it's crazy. We have uh we have the largest indoor range for policing. Uh there may be some private stuff that's out there, but like you can drive a full patrol car, cars into our range. We have rifle range, we fog machine, uh everything you can imagine, guys. Um riot control, noises going on. Uh it's insane. So having that um to what you're saying about shooting, moving around people and stuff like that, our guys do all that stuff. So um I fully support that. Again, it all goes into preparation, it all goes into training and being based on realistic things.

SPEAKER_07 2:01:31

So we really tried to make it fun. We'd we first started doing some of the stuff in service. People were come down and we were putting them through what we were doing with the recruits. And they're like, Are we allowed to do this? Yes, yeah, you're allowed to do it. And then afterwards, they're like, This is fun as hell. I'm like, I know. And the recruits get to do this bullshit, and then they all get mad because we're buying different targets that light up, you know, it's green, shoot it, red, don't shoot it, and they light up and like, oh, and we're showing them like visual decision making is different than you know, an audible tone. We're trying to educate them better, and it's it was it's been successful.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:58

Yeah, and and the part that I want people listening to get out of this is like, look, this is this is the mentality you want for your law enforcement places. You want them to want to strive for the best on this stuff. You want this. We don't have a lot of there's departments out there that don't. They don't want this, they don't, they don't care, they don't push for it because they want to protect, you know, liabilities or whatever it is. This is how you in my opinion, bigger picture, avoid liability. You you you you're putting your people in the right spot for realistic stuff. Um, so I hope people don't listen to this and like, oh, they're just cops planing all night. No, like this is legit. Like, this is what I this is what I strive for. This is cutting edge training. This is like you guys don't under like for those that aren't in law enforcement. Enforcement. You've never been military. This is cutting edge discussion. This is not something that is popular yet. We're trying to make this popular. And I think that's what uh Chris is going to explain to us in this next portion with staccato is how they are pushing the envelope for law enforcement. So let's get into that. You get did did Scott staccato groom you? Like where they were like, let's see how this guy is. Like, how did that come about? You you were you a staccato guy?

SPEAKER_07 2:03:26

No.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:27

So I was a glot guy.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:28

So you were a glot guy. Okay. So this is even better.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:31

Love the honesty.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:32

That's even better. So you were a glot guy, and you're like, staccato, did they reach out to you? Did you reach out to how did that go?

SPEAKER_07 2:03:39

So I've had friends that worked over there for a while. Okay. Um like a couple years ago, I was asked to do maybe the blue team stuff.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:03:48

Um with the traditional line of pistols, right? And I was just honest with them. I said, I'm not, I'm not into the gun. Um I'm I'm a Glock guy. I like my Glock. Um they always work. Yep. Um fantastic guns. The Smith Wessons are fantastic. There's plenty of awesome guns out there. Um, then I got a chance to go down to the factory and help uh not develop but be a part of the the HD part process, the new guns.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:13

The newer guns, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:04:14

Um no grip safety takes lock mags. I know people like to make you know their own thoughts about deck, but it's we're trying.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:21

Hold on. Hold on. I I gotta interrupt you a little bit. I want my non-gun people and my gun people to understand staccato is another level, it is another level of weapon, and I only know this from shooting them personally. Um I've admitted to this to you guys for the last five years. I'm not the greatest pistol shot in the world. When I got to shoot a staccato, which was Brian Stahl's, it was a the P. So if you guys start looking into staccato, I shot the P. It was a full-size gun. I'm not going to lie to you guys. I felt like John Wick because I had a red dot. I shot better, more accurate, faster than it ever shot in my life. And that was from being a Glock guy that shot my 17 with a red dot. It was the same thing, essentially. I'm shooting the same type of rounds, a nine mil. I'm shooting at the same steel targets. I shot faster, was able to shoot on the move. It just I the only way I do this all the time when I describe a staccato. This I don't know even what that means, but when I shoot, that's what I feel. I'm not a gun guy, so it's just this. I just keep doing this. That's what the slide feels like. It goes straight back. I don't know another way to describe it. So it's all a perception thing. Yeah, it is. And it felt like I was shooting in slow motion. And so that's why I'm such a fucking staccato fanboy. It's so dumb. I don't even own one. But when I shot it, it was the best I've ever felt shooting a gun. And the point that I'm trying to get to with this is you got a guy who was as tactically sound as it goes, knows how to teach firearms instruction for law enforcement, and ends up going working for a higher level of more precision firearm, in my opinion. This is again, take it for what it is. I'm not a pistol guy, or I'm not a not a firearms guy, but it's a higher level of firearm. And that's the difference between buying a 350 to 500 Glock that will shoot. Doesn't matter if you put it in the sand, the mud, whatever, it's gonna keep shooting, and then get into a precision firearm that just sh smokes the range. That's how staccato is to me. Continue. Sorry. Oh no worries.

SPEAKER_07 2:06:44

Sorry. Like those, I think those are all perception things. Yeah. The like the staccato will the HDs, at least. I know you throw them in the sand and the mud and dirt, they're gonna shoot too.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:53

Yeah, I I don't know any better. I'm just telling you what I know about a Glock.

SPEAKER_07 2:06:56

But I was a Glock guy, right? Tried and true. I still love them. Um, but I I got asked to come down and help like or look at the HDs as they're being developed. Okay. So the prototypes of the fulls and four and a half.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:08

Three years ago-ish? Uh two. Two years ago. Okay.

Fire Service Advice For Teens

SPEAKER_07 2:07:12

Um, so they released that one at Shot Show last year. Um I liked it. I got to play with it, shoot it. I got a prototype, started shooting it, and I was like, this is it's a cool gun. Yeah. Right? It is a cool gun. It removes a little bit of the the I think with a new shooter, a little bit of the friction of learning. Like, I'm not gonna go and tell you like the gun shoots itself. That's a ridiculous statement, right? Right? It does not. If you s if you suck at shooting, you grab one of our guys, you're gonna guns, you're gonna suck at shooting. Like you have to put in the effort, but it does take away a little bit of the friction, like the learning curve, just the the ease of the trigger. Yeah, and that's just it's that evolution of like the 1911 is this old ass gun, yeah, right? But it sure does work well, and it's like the trigger sure does work well. So, like, how can we keep improving this design and making it functional and getting it to be like something people trust to carry? Yeah, and that's really what the goal is. Um, but working there was uh just by happenstance, I was offered a job. Um, I was like, I don't know about that. Um, but then I was kind of told what our mission would be going forward and like trying to help spread training through law enforcement, help you know, just get the idea that yeah, the gun won't shoot itself, but if this is what you want to shoot, you may find your learning curve to be shortened a little bit. Yeah, absolutely reliable. It's made in America. It's the whole this whole thing. It ain't made in just America, sir.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:40

It's just made in America, it's made in Texas, baby.

SPEAKER_07 2:08:43

It's true. It's made in the the Republic of Texas, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:08:46

I listen, you guys say what you want. I'm a Michigan native originally, but I am fully Texan. I am fully Texan.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:55

Native Texas, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:58

So that that's me. That's my selling point. It's fucking Texas made, baby. Yeah, it's just I believe in the mission of the company.

SPEAKER_07 2:09:06

It's I'm surrounded by good people. We're doing, I think, awesome stuff, especially in the future. Um, there's really cool things I want to be a part of, yeah, and that we're gonna push out there. And I think we're just gonna keep blowing people's minds.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:18

So uh, as far as law enforcement goes, uh, my agency, we won't say where, but my agency, we are fully staccato now. Like it's an accepted firearm. We it where I'm at, as long as our range masters are master armorers in what whatever weapon, we can carry it. Now, you the thing is you gotta pay for it. So um, staccatoes are not the price of a clock. Okay, so we issue glocks, but go ahead, Benny.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:48

That's that's life in general. I mean, you you get what you pay for. And I'm gonna give you just one short story. It was it was uh gosh, the last firearms quall I did for the city of Jacksboro. I had a gentleman locally here in town, uh, knew that we were doing our firearms qualification out on this on the uh public, not so public range. And he's like, hey, dude, I want you to try this staccato. He's telling me this on the phone, and I'd heard the name. Um, I've heard some guys saying, hey, when I retire, I want to use some of that money to buy a staccato, yada, yada, yada. And and uh and I'm like, hey, bring it out. Let's shoot this thing before I get my troops here. Um, because I was a Glock guy ever so when I got into law enforcement, I was I was a SIG guy. You know, I got out with a Beretta M9 in the in the Marine Corps, uh, you know, two weeks before the towers got hit, got into law enforcement, and uh I was a SIG guy. Um and it was a it was a SIG 9mm. And it was a great gun to me. I loved it. I didn't realize how clunky it was, how heavy it was. I was trained on it. I loved it. Um and then I got into a larger agency and they purchased our weapons, which I wasn't used, you know, used to. And it was a Glock 21, it was the 45 caliber, and it was a hand cannon to me. I mean, it was a big gun. We got trained, we had a lot of training there, just like your department. They took us out a lot, it was great. And and then this dude, and then I went to uh uh a Glock 17 after that. Um, once I retired from Haltham City and came out here to the middle of nowhere, we went to the Glock 17s and was an instructor here for our agency. And I got very good with it. I loved it. It was my it was my go-to for everything. Um and I preached it to the guys, and that's what they, that's what they they wore. And then this guy that wasn't even in our department said, hey man, let me show you this staccato. He was former law enforcement. So he came out, he brought me a holster setup, everything, got it comfortable, took 30 minutes prior to shooting, got everything comfortable, did a lot of dry firing with it, and then and then got to the range with it. And I could not believe my transition between the glock and the staccato, the feel, the natural feeling, and I know there's I think there's some videos out there years ago saying that they they built the weapon around a magazine. Correct me if I'm wrong. Okay, and I may be wrong on that, but what they did with that, my transition from a Glock to a staccato made my muscle mechanics that much better on the range, just using it blindly after doing everything as an instructor would get familiar because it was just like everything else law enforcement used, the way they built it, the slide lock, everything. Um, get familiar with it, and then you go out there. It's like when I went through that first magazine with it, I was more comfortable with it than I was my Glock. And I can't say that about any other gun manufacturer out there. And that's a lot for Manning to say, this was better than a Glock to me. And I understand there's that there's a price difference, but I'm going back to you get what you pay for. The manufacturing that goes behind, and this is just my opinion. When I got to use that out there, and this is, you know, when I go out and shoot, this is moving targets. This is not just steel paper. I was able to adapt to that platform a lot faster than I've adapted to any other. And one of these days, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna break down and go get one. And I'm I'm gonna have it, and I'm gonna have it as my planker. I'm I'm not serving every day anymore like I used to do, but I will have a staccato one of these days. Yeah. Um I will go back to this story all day long. When I tell my wife, I want to buy a staccato and this and this and this, it's not just another uh expensive truck in the driveway. I want to have both the protection of family.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:27

That's definitely a Texas thing. It is a Texas thing. He does have an expensive truck.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:32

And it's not just too, I mean, I was glauck everything, but I got that in my hands. It takes a lot to make me smile. I've shooting full auto 308s. I've I've had gun companies bring me the most amazing things, and that's cool. But I put this staccato, I almost wanted to make the dude disappear and make that my gun as a joke. Um, because it's beautiful, man. I mean, it it what you guys are creating, and and I don't care what anybody says, it's a beautiful piece of equipment, and I'll shut up at that.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:02

Yeah. So I want you to understand, we've been talking about staccato on here for five years. We like when when it comes to people ask because that's a common cop question. Like, well, what gun would you carry? Like perfect world, staccato all day long. Why? Because I've never shot a gun better than I've shot a staccato. Like hands down, across the board, and to banning's point, the smile. That's what I loved about when I shot Brian's staccato. Was I shot it knowing I'm not the best pistol shooter in the world and left feeling like John Fucking Wick. Like I felt like, oh my God, I I can't miss. I and I couldn't miss with his gun. When I shot it, again, he gave, like you said, proper instruction. It's not like it was based in nothingness. I've been shooting 20 years, y'all, like with proper instruction. Um when I fucking shot that gun, dude. I just like I was trying to be like stupid with steel targets. I was like running. I'm like out of breath. I'm like, bah bah bah. And it's like ping, ping, ping, ping. I was like, what the fuck? That doesn't happen with me. And I that happened with the P.

SPEAKER_07 2:15:17

Yeah. Still doesn't shoot itself. You did that.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:20

I did do that.

Rendering Aid, Reality, And Media

SPEAKER_07 2:15:21

You did that. Thank you. Thank you. But it doesn't I like Chris. Well, that's what I want to get across people. It's like I'm I'm not in sales. Like I work for training in staccato, right? I do believe in the company and the mission and the handgun. I think it's a cool gun. I think it's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 2:15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:15:35

I think if if I were the king of the world and can control materials prices, labor, and all that stuff, we would bring the price of them down. But I've seen, like, I've been to the factory a whole lot and I've seen how much work these guys put into these guns, and that is why they cost that much money. Yeah. Like they just, it's you can't, it's built to a standard, right? Not a price point. Like, I know, I know we're trying a whole lot of new stuff. All kinds of stuff coming out in the future, right? But for now, this is where we're at, what we're trying to get done. Um, and then as a company, like getting guys like you talking about these, you know, getting the community and understand. Like, I think one thing that's even more important is like we've been talking about shooting a lot.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:16:17

But we're not trying to get cops to be like gunfighter killers. No. We're trying to get them to be so confident in themselves and then the gun they carry that they maybe they don't get into shooting, right? I know I've had several officers who are like, I didn't shoot, I didn't think I need to shoot the guy this time, and they manage to get the guy into custody.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:16:35

Where they're not shooting because they're scared and you know, like a chihuahua in the corner, just biting out of fear. They have an actual, they know what they can accomplish in a given time and a given distance, and not in an arrogant or cocky way, but they know where their limitations are and they know what they can actually accomplish and hopefully not shoot. If the guy's running 50 yards, you know, laterally 50 yards from you, probably not a good idea to shoot him, shoot at him as he's running across traffic.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:17:00

What are the chances of you hitting him? Probably zero. And what are the chances you hitting something else you should not hit? 100%.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 2:17:06

So that confidence as guys develop their own skills and as they get more comfortable manipulating the firearms and holding them, the decision making goes along with it.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:17

Yeah, I agree. Um before we move on to questions from our audience, because I'm sure they've had a ton of them that we've been ignoring. I'm sorry, guys. I wanted to make sure that we did this a different way this time. Uh, is there anything that we haven't hit that you were like, I want to get this across?

SPEAKER_07 2:17:37

I think as far as staccato goes, it's um the group I'm part of is now called Staccato Training Group. Okay. So we'll have our little coming out at Shot Show this year. But I know we're gonna be in Texas and in Vegas at the ranches um at least four times coming up through the year doing open enrollment classes.

SPEAKER_05 2:17:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:17:56

But I I don't know, and this is my fault for not knowing this dead on if those are gonna be open enrollment, open enrollment, or just for staccato ranch members, like 368.

SPEAKER_05 2:18:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:18:06

Um, I'm not quite sure where that's gonna be at, but I know we're gonna be doing a bunch of classes here, and we still travel throughout the country training agency specific stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:14

Okay. Um, is there any chance that Banning and I can come to something like that?

SPEAKER_07 2:18:19

I'm sure I could figure that out.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:20

Hell yeah. And if we do that, we're bringing cameras and I'm gonna outshoot Banning's big ass. I'm a terrible shot. So if you lose to me, you're terrible. You're a bad human. You're a bad person in general. Yes. Um okay. Very cool. Um, all right, let's get to the questions. Listen, if you guys got some questions, Banning, yeah, I'm sure you've been paying attention to them all. Let's go, baby.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:47

So I got I got a couple here. Uh there there was a lot of questions. Um, so you have to understand what our what our show also hinges on. You know, we're building, we're uh, we're we're we're bringing the gap together between community and law enforcement. Um with that, we have a lot of constitutional issues that Eric and I both have been exposed to now uh for the past few years that we weren't we were aware of, but not realizing how big it may be in some areas of the country, meaning training with law enforcement in the in the in the constitution itself. So Mr. Billfold asked a question uh about an hour ago. Uh, and this was a question to you, Chris. It is it's how many years, or I'm sorry, how many hours a year of firearms training did Phoenix Police Department give officers? Here's the caveat, and how many hours of constitutional training did they uh get there in Phoenix, meaning your basic patrol officers on the street, if if that makes sense to you.

SPEAKER_07 2:19:48

Yeah. Um firearms, excuse me, firearms training was 90 hours total for recruits, right? Then in service, only had to call once a year, and they had to do quarterly two-hour shoots. So quarterly, every quarter, they would come in to either their indoor range at their precinct or they would come down and take a class. We had what we called catalog classes. So throughout the year, we would have, you know, low light shooting, red dot refresher, shooting on the move, like all these different introduction to competitive shooting, all these courses they could come take and they could get that counted towards the time as well. Constitutional training specifically with the recruits in the academy, I have no idea. I don't know what they got taught. And then ongoing, I would say it was probably zero as a required specific to constitutional training. Yeah. Now, case law and all those other things are always ongoing. Right. So legislative updates. Legislative updates as those come out, those are always updated. Um, and I think that's probably one of the bigger like law enforcement in general. We have a whole lot we could do better. We have a whole lot that we think we understand well, but it isn't until you go out and expose yourself to additional training. I started traveling to these use of force conferences.

SPEAKER_04 2:21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:21:02

And I'm like, I didn't know that. I didn't, I didn't understand this. And now I understand this and I can articulate this better. But to answer your question, Mr. Bill Fole, if you're still on, I don't know what the hours were, but I would say my own experience, talking about me, I don't remember anyone teaching me specifically anything to do other than the academy with constitutional law. Everything I got was on my own, um branching out and taking training.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:28

And that's one of the biggest problems we're seeing with law enforcement is every time they get themselves in trouble, it's a constitutional issue. And then we start having these conversations. Oh, you spent 90 hours working with a firearm that you may use in point less than 1% of the law enforcement community out there, but you're gonna deal with the constitution every day. How much fucking constitution training are you getting?

SPEAKER_07 2:21:51

Yeah, they get a ton. I know they get a ton, and it's like a constant thing with search and seizure. The Fourth Amendment. Yeah, search and seizure is a big one. It's a huge one. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:59

That's a that's a big one. And we still screw it up. Let's let's be let's be real. We still screw it up. We just showed a video the other day. Officers, he's uh he's looking for somebody that has a warrant. He goes to the house that he thinks this person might be at, but he has no um, he's not articulating that this person, he has a reasonable suspicion that that person's in there. Any third-party resignation? Yes, and he puts his foot in the door and he's doing one of those, and I'm like, ah, you're fucking up, bro. And uh it it's very, you know, and uh we did research on the case, and the officer was wrong, did violate this person's rights, person won a bunch of money and um all that. But what gets us into those conversations like Bannon's talking about is like we spent 90 hours for recruit training on firearms. You motherfuckers don't know the constitution that you have to enforce every day.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:50

Every day. It is the baseline for everything we do, everything we do, and you don't know it. That's a problem.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:56

Absolutely. And I'm going to switch gears here. So we're in the infield right now, baseball terminology, and we're we're hammering on this. What Eric and I also, and I know, Chris, you're the same as well, our next generation. So I've got a 15-year-old that's got a question on here, okay? And it says, I'm 15, and this is not even our career path, but it's a first responder. I'm 15 and thinking about being a cadet firefighter, which is anywhere from 14 to 18 years old. My thing is that to make sure I'm doing it for the right reasons, do you have any tips for me, the three of you? Um, you know, what what can he do at 15 years old to round him out better once he reaches the age to become a firefighter? And I think that we can answer some of that, but none of us are career fire men, fire people. Uh and I'm sure we have some people in our audience that may be able to answer that better. But that came from, excuse me, a bear-G3Q when we first started the show. And I think that's a great question. I mean, this is somebody that's 15 years old, like all of us. We wanted to be first responders at a very young age, at least I did at five years old, writing my grandmother tickets for vacuuming too fast. This young man wants to be a firefighter at 15. He's already thinking, how can he, what can he do now to make him better? And the only thing I can say is physical fitness. To make sure that your physical fitness is 100% intact by the time you reach that age for whatever you're gonna learn within the fire industry. Chris, Eric, what do you all have on that?

SPEAKER_05 2:24:32

I like Chris go.

SPEAKER_07 2:24:33

Yeah, that's I was gonna say physical fitness. The rest of it, like the fire sciences stuff, the medical stuff, you're all gonna learn there, and every fire department is running a little bit different.

SPEAKER_04 2:24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:24:41

Like our guys are all, you know, they go through their paramedic phase and then they're engineers. Like physical fitness, I would say learn a second language because that's gonna help you out huge. Go at least learn Spanish. Um, you're probably gonna be doing a ton of medical when you get in there. Um, and that's really it. Like, fire is its own animal.

Paperwork, Policy, And Street Effects

SPEAKER_02 2:24:59

Yeah. I I would um my big push would be get into um retail, get into being a waiter, a bartender, customer service, some sort of customer service type thing. Because ultimately you're gonna be dealing with homeless a lot more more often than not. I think that's the bulk of firefighters' job is uh most people don't know this. You're not gonna get to fight a whole lot of fires, not like you think. Oh gosh, no, but you're gonna be dealing with medical homeless issues quite a bit, medical mostly, yeah, mostly medical. So um knowing how to deal with the disadvantaged is a is a big thing. Um it's if you're if you're if you it just depends on how you grow up, uh, but if you grow up in a place where you you're not used to dealing with the disadvantaged, like you need to know and uh just talking to people. I think that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:55

So and and Perry Lemley threw one up there EMT training and fire explorers. So they still have explorer programs, and I'm not sure what the young man is at. But get in those explorer programs, get in those trusted programs that are gonna get your feet in the door and let you kind of experience uh some of the things go. I can't claim to be a fireman. I have I been to a have I, you know, we we spoke about this in their last live. I've been that police officer that should not have done it, but kicking in a door on a house that's on fire because the fire department's not there yet, and you're going in there to do what you can as a as a as a guy with a badge, yanking people out before it gets way too bad, and probably going in at the at the wrong time, but you're like, there's people in there. There could be pets in there. There could be, and you're your your job is to save life, so you go in there and do what you do. But go in these these fire explorer programs and learn what you can. There's there's a ton of stuff on YouTube, you know, and and I've been looking this up as this young man asked this question. There's things on YouTube that you can watch as well that will point you to the correct departments that you may that are in your area to be able to go and and receive some of this uh onboarding type training before you actually uh submit yourself to the fire academy, etc., to kind of get your mind where it's at. And you may get there and say, man, I want to be a cop. I'm just saying, I mean, maybe maybe that's what what it is. Um, but you have to make sure it's for you. I couldn't be a fireman. There that's not for me. Those those guys are they'll probably think we're nuts on things, but we need the firemen just as much as we need cops on things. And those fire guys are nuts, man. I mean, if you I mean, look at the movie Backdraft, you know, that was based on a lot of true stories. That was a great movie. It was, man. It was a great movie. And I saw the movie and I'm like, man, that truly is a a hero of mine. Somebody going in and doing that type of thing. Yeah, right. You know, uh lazy boy freaking tacos on Thursday.

SPEAKER_07 2:27:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:53

And we pick on each other as a crew. I've got a lot of great, very close friends that are that are firemen. And uh they they compliment me on things and I compliment on them on things, and we've been on hot, hot, excuse the terminology, calls together to where I watch them go into things and all I can do is sit back and pray, seeing how hot that fire is and hoping that that something doesn't come down. But another thing for this young man uh is talking is look at a guy named Travis Howes. Travis Howes travels the country uh speaking on what he went through as I believe he was a Marine uh and he was a firefighter and a cop at one time, but he does motivational speeches all over the country. But Travis Howes is another thing to look at for the mentality of what it takes to become a fireman. Um, it's not for everybody, just like it's being a police officer, it's not for everybody. But uh I just wanted to make sure we answered that young man's question.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:47

Yeah. Um, another part that I would I would actually put out there is which is something that I got early in my police career, is go to a morgue. Find out what it's like to deal with somebody that died from an overdose, somebody that died from fire, somebody that died from violence. Yep. Like I know that seems a little morbid, but if you're gonna get in that field, yeah, you're in reality.

SPEAKER_00 2:29:11

I mean, you're your medical expander is the world. Yeah. You know, if you if your parents sign off, you can go watch. And this is not for everybody, but you can go observe an autopsy as a minor if your parents sign off on it and they're there with you. It this is not for the faint-hearted. If you want to be a first responder, you are gonna see the worst of the worst. You've got to be okay here, and then and you've got to be able to speak to people throughout your career on it.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:39

This is why I'm such a big proponent of you shouldn't be a cop. I know we're not talking about being a cop, but I don't think you should be a cop until after 25, until after your brain stops developing. Like I know a lot of people have become cops, and there's been some great cops that have been as soon as they turned 21. And and and even earlier, there's some old school police departments that would let you join at 18. But in my opinion, and I will tell you, if you would have asked 18-year-old Eric Levine, he was ready to be a fucking cop at 18. But I can tell you right now, 42-year-old Eric Levine will tell you that honestly, looking back, I wasn't ready to be a cop until I was probably in my 30s. Honestly, I think I would have been my best self at being a cop if I started in my 30s, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 2:30:27

Yep. And and Mr. Billfold says it right here. He said, Nothing prepares you for rendering aid to a child thrown from thrown from a vehicle and having to put their dismembered parts in a diaper for the ambulance when they arrive. And I know the three of us have stories from throughout our career. You know, I did CPR on a kid for about 20 minutes. And if you think about what you go through for CPR in 20 minutes, uh, you know, back then it was the staying alive soundtrack was just coming out. They were starting to slowly teach that. And uh I had no clue that this young man had no back half of his skull and there was no brain there, and I was trying to find a pulse. You know, you know, you sit there in a Ford Mustang doing compressions on a kid for that long, and then FD gets there and they tell you to stop. And I said, Why? They're like, That's his that's his bodily parts behind you there. All you're trying to do is is save a life. And uh it didn't register in my mind. I saw somebody without a pulse and you you go to work. Yeah, you know, I'm not a paramedic.

SPEAKER_07 2:31:37

I think the community can learn from too is like as a cop, you know, you pull up and you're like, Oh, I I think I know how to deal with this, right? The fire gets there because they've seen it a million times, and they're like, Yeah, what are you doing, dude? Because their their world is going 10 times slower than yours. Yep. Now, if a guy jumped out with a gun, their world would go a hundred times faster, yours would slow down compared to them. Yep. It's it's what we've been exposed to and what we're you know prepared to see and what the normal is.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:32:04

So one's not really harder than the other. They just see more of that. Like I know for sure my fireboy guys like medical was 99% of what they did.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:32:13

You know, old ladies falling down the stairs, heart attack, someone dead in the tub, drowned children, car wrecks. Then a house would catch on fire every once in a while.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:22

Yeah. Um my brain is going to a bad place that I remember now that I fucking didn't even think about until now. But um, I I I remember doing CPR on a 14-year-old gunshot victim and just pushing blood out of him. Like I still to this day, I'm just like I thought I was doing the right thing. Right. And I'm just giving CPR to this kid, and just the amount of blood that was pushing out, and I didn't know I I was probably making things worse. I don't know, nobody ever really said that I was, but I remember afterwards, I'm just like no one stopped me.

SPEAKER_07 2:33:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:07

FD got there and they were like, Just let him work. They just yeah, they just let me do my thing, and I remember, I'm just like, I remember the amount of blood that was coming out of his back. I'm pushing, I'm just doing CPR. I'm like, I I I didn't have I wasn't invested in it. Like, I just didn't, it's a 14-year-old kid. I'm like, let me do CPR, do what I gotta do. I push so much blood out of this kid.

SPEAKER_07 2:33:31

See, that's that's one thing I'd like to hear. I'd like it's unfortunate you had to deal with that, but I wish the community understood. Like we had and SWAT specifically, we had fire captains that were our TLOs, they were didactic. So we always had one assigned to us, and they were super awesome dudes. But like they they would say things like no one, no one ever who's uh had a trauma to their body has been saved by CPR. Yeah, right, ever like C that's not how it works. So they they were always like, Yeah, doing like chest compressions on someone with holes in their body is not a good thing. It's not, but I learned that the article it can literally be a perception thing because then if they're not, then the community is looking around going, why aren't the cops doing anything? Yeah, so it literally has become almost a theater, right? First aid theater, where like you know, you gotta like we've shot dudes, and then like we always you know get someone on there with a head tourniquet, with a headshot, you know, tourniquets and everybody's bandaging them, and they're you're rendering aid to the this person because they we are responsible for them.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:34:35

But in the end, it's it's almost theater. So if but those are part of the community, the the things we need to have conversations with the community about. It's like, hey, the officers are doing this because of this, or not doing this, excuse me, because of this.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:34:50

But if you didn't do anything and a news crew is there, they'd you would be on the news going, yeah, officers stood by and watched him bleed. Yeah.

Transparency, Auditors, And Public Trust

SPEAKER_00 2:34:58

And and that's 100% the beginning of my career. You know, so I I like I told you, I got out of the Marine Corps right before the towers got hit, um, got right into law enforcement. And when we went to medical scenes, the the the guys in blue, so to speak, with the red and blue lights on, were usually there prior to ambulance or fire department, the guys that had the true medical training. And we were instructed, I would say 2002 to 2008-ish. You are not instructed on how to do this. Now, I went out and got my CPR outside of the department. You know, I knew I could use it for family. I unfortunately passed a lot of wrecks on my way to work because when I got into law enforcement, I drove an exorbitant a long way. I had to leave an hour prior to my shift. Um, and I ran in by wrecks a lot. And I'm like, I'm a cop. I took an oath. If I can do something being that young guy, I'm gonna get out there and I'm gonna do what I've even been trained on the side to do to save a life. I definitely wasn't a medic. Like Perry Limley, the guys that we have followed, these, you know, uh, you know, these these dudes that have all that training, that's not me, but I have basic training. And that maybe I can lend something to save a heartbeat until somebody that knows what they're freaking doing uh gets there and can take over and maybe save a life. And I think out of all the CPR things that I've done in 21 years in law enforcement, four years in the Marines before that, one person prevailed. One person survived. To me, that was worth it. There was one person that survived uh based on the action that I was taught outside. Then we started getting buddy aid first aid in law enforcement, and it was a little bit more acceptable to apply that to the general public. Uh, if you have the certificates, if you were able to articulate, we always say articulate in law enforcement on why you did the actions that you did. But right there, what Chris and Eric, what y'all are saying, when the media shows up, why is that cop standing there with his hand on his gun and they're waiting on the sirens of the other responders that are taught how to take care of the situation when you can be motivated and get in there and do what you have learned even on the outside. And that goes to jujitsu, goes to first uh first aid. Everything that you do as a motivated officer on the outside to be a better person, why can you not apply it if you've gotten that proper uh training? And then nowadays you have a lot more law enforcement that are gonna be entrained uh to be able to apply something when they get to the scene for life-saving situations. I just I hate that it took so long, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_07 2:37:43

Yeah. And I think a lot of that did come from the community, that fair to render aid. Yeah. You know, when you've shot people, like we've reviewed BWCs, and you know, the guy's shot, he's on the ground, and it's like, oh, let's see if you know, hit him with a beanbag and see if he's like we try to tell guys, like, look, no, that bad guy doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_05 2:38:00

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_07 2:38:01

That's gonna fake it. Like you shot him with bullets, now he's gonna wait for you to get up there and slash your like that's the movies. Like if the dude is on the ground, yeah, he could be faking it. He could be not listening to you, but you can gauge his capacity, understand, you can try to get things to be clear, make sure he's separated from the weapon system, and then take him into custody and then render aid.

SPEAKER_05 2:38:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:38:18

Like that's where I think we got caught short, not my agency, but like agencies across the country, yeah, where it's like, well, it wasn't safe to go up there, excuse me. It wasn't safe for us to go up there. And then that's us getting the safety priorities out of whack again, right? Yes, the suspect is below you on the priority of safety. Yeah, but once we've used deadly force on the suspect, they are now not a victim, but they are now unable to care for themselves, and we have to get them into custody, render aid, and take care of it.

SPEAKER_02 2:38:47

Yep, 100%. Um I seen uh Mr. Billfold asked over on our Discord. If you're not on our Discord, please, our mods have been probably putting the Discord channel up there, but please join our Discord. Um, this is where you can get a much more um, I will say, intimate uh relationship with us on the uh podcast and everything that we got going on and ask good questions, share videos and all that stuff. But he said, Chris, what part uh was Chris part of the ICAT training they rolled out in 2023? How did he feel about the addition of the duty to intervene policy edition in 2022?

SPEAKER_07 2:39:24

So I went to the National ICAT Council conference, whatever it was in San Diego, I think that year. Um I like a lot of what they do. I don't agree with all of it.

SPEAKER_05 2:39:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:39:35

Um at that time we had the DOJ investigating us in Phoenix. We were never under consent decree, they left because we were doing what we were supposed to do.

SPEAKER_05 2:39:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:39:43

Um the duty to intervene. So I I helped write our use of force policy for the city. Um the duty to intervene. We at first we looked at that like, what is this and why why is the wording there? Because I think it is important, right? And I think it's you we can't say we just take that as an understanding that if you're out of hand, I'm gonna I need to stop you from being out of hand. Like that's an understanding, right? Right. It has to be in a policy somewhere. It had like for the agency to protect itself, it does need to be on paper saying if one of our officers observes something that we expect them to help both the other officer and the community by intervening in this somehow, right? But the wording on it was like should know or should have known, and all these things are like, whoa, let's not suppose what people are observing or seeing. We know that's not true. Like, you can't just because something occurs, you can't say someone saw it.

SPEAKER_04 2:40:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:40:39

Right. And something may not have occurred and somebody could see it. Like we the human mind is weird. So I I don't know if I'm answering his question correctly and hit me up, hit it again if you if I'm not. I think a duty to intervene policy is probably mandatory for a department. It protects the department and it clarifies, if wrote properly, it clarifies what's expected of their officers. And expectations are huge. If you just leave it as a blank statement, like I'm not quite sure what they expect of me, you're gonna get all these weird random results.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:09

Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Any more questions that you got written down or anything like that, Benny?

SPEAKER_00 2:41:16

No, those are the three that I got. Now keep in mind I did lose the the entire thread for a while and I I'm on three different platforms, and it's slowly coming back in, and I'm trying to skim it. Uh I know uh Tim, if Tim, if you're still on, I think you may have screenshotted some stuff. Send it to me, send it to Eric, we'll we'll we'll uh we'll get it to Chris. But uh those those were the three that I saw that were actual questions uh to the panel on the on tonight's stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:42

Um Mr. Bill Fold followed up with his question. He said, I was curious if there was pushback about the the the duty to intervene classes.

SPEAKER_07 2:41:51

Yeah, so we myself and a bunch of other instructors for the agency would put on, we'd have like a hundred people in the auditorium at a time and put on these classes for the new use of force policy. And we had pushback on a lot of it, but the way we explained it to people, it was like, okay, now I get what you're saying. I understand better. So if it's it doesn't do you any good to write a policy and then just stick it out there and expect people to follow it without an explanation, right? If you give them a good, solid explanation, they tend to be able to track along with it better and you get more buy-in. Um, when we put in the the expectations, and this is some of these we were mandated to put in, but like that time distance cover, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:42:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:42:31

I said, well, how about we explain what that is? Right? How we exp how about we explain better, not just that we're going on the principles of Graham, how about we put the entire case law in there and then explain what the expectations are? So we did that, but like time distance cover, we said specifically in there this does not mean run away, hide, and take time, right? De escalation is an is a is a mutual event. We put things about gauge. Understanding, crisis communication, all that stuff in there. But the whole point of it was so that if you reach the point where the option, the appropriate option at that time is force, use force now, is what we were trying to say. Yes, there's gonna be more reporting, which people were upset with, right? Well, now I got to do this paperwork, dude. We got to track this stuff.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:43:14

Right. We have to show that we're doing the right things. We can't just say, trust me. Yeah. Right. No, don't worry, we're doing everything fine. No, we're gonna document it. And it's like when you change the reporting for use of force, it looks like use of force went up. But no, this is just now it's documented that we put handcuffs on someone. More articulation, drawing everything. Yeah. So finding the words to put like force to minimus, like minimus force type things aren't even getting reported. Like handcuffs are just expected in normal parts of an arrest.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:43:45

Right. Um regular soft control techniques. Um explaining like giving better expectations of officer interactions to them took a lot of the pushback and got a lot more buy-in. We still had some people that are like, no, this is stupid. You're just gonna use it to burn officers, right? And I know I think I saw one on here, it was like, uh, sorry, but fuck saving the agency when I was talking about to protect the agency. But in the end, that is what we're all doing. Like we're protecting the agency, which is protecting the community.

SPEAKER_03 2:44:20

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_07 2:44:21

It isn't the agency, it's not it, it should not be this sole thing. And believe me, they do not care about you. Like everything is just everything's still fine where I'm guess what?

SPEAKER_02 2:44:31

The agency is going to continue. You could have done saved nine million citizens in the 10 years that you were on the department. The moment that they find a reason to burn you because you fucked up, you're gone. And when you're gone, they're not gonna blink an eye, they don't give a fuck about who you are.

SPEAKER_07 2:44:46

And then again, it's not it's protecting the agency. I view that as myself and my brothers and sisters, right? Not the idiot. Yeah. Right. Now, if someone's being railroaded for no reason whatsoever, there should be things in there to protect them from that. But no matter who like the agency is going to win, right? And that's just the way it is.

SPEAKER_00 2:45:11

Agreed. Let me let me give you an example of because we always have what changes at the top. It doesn't matter what the size of your agency is, you have a change at the top, and you're always going to have some general orders or or rules that change based on maybe where that leader came from. You know, and then that's that's a that's a given. So I was at an agency, okay, about 100 sworn, and we had a new agency change. Um, and a new rule from the top was is anytime an officer breaks leather, they were going to do a use of force report.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:49

Use of force report, yeah.

Takeaways, Training Invites, And Closing

SPEAKER_00 2:45:51

So this was a you it as active as the agency was that I was at, you were breaking leather. And I'm talking about a Thursday, Friday, Saturday night, two to three times a shift if you were having a good night. Yeah. Meaning you you had calls coming in, you're doing your job, you're you're you're making your buck. You're out there protecting the community. So with that being said, we had this whole thing, everybody had to sign this email or memorandum that came out. If you break leather, you have got to do what's called a a uh uh use of force report. And and at the agency I was at at the time was was if you do a user force report, that was creating a new call for everybody involved, going in there, bringing in all the intelligence, the platform that we were on. It took it it took you about an hour and 15 hour and 30 minutes to do a basic use of force report when your paragraph came down to the articulation at the end, was one paragraph. So it was like, man, if I just don't now, this is the mentality, okay? I'm talking about mentality of officers that were already on the street. If I don't break leather and I call note it, I don't have to do that use of force report. So I was in canine at the time. We had a a big change at the top. The this new person came in from another agency, a large agency in the in the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex, and he he he put that out. And I'm not doubting that. I'm not I'm not the guy at the at the pay grade to say anything about it. So that came out, and everybody was talking about in briefing. Oh my God, if we if we break leather, we do this. So I'm I'm gonna give you an example. Oh, dude. Yeah. So 10 p.m. at night, we had a business alarm go off from one of our business alarms that were if this thing went off, it's not false. There's somebody in there. And you go back and look at the dash cam, and this is when body cameras were coming out. Okay, this is the the advent of body camera. So we had a lot, thank God. I mean, I was a big proponent of this. And and so I was watching guys clearing buildings with coffee in their left hand and no firearm out. I'm talking a broken window. This is a use of, you know, but they're like, I don't have to do that because I'm gonna go in there and call note it. And it's on my body camera, it's on my dash cam. I never broke leather, I never pulled my firearm out to clear this building. And that was it's I was sitting there thinking as a young canine officer, I'm like, this is nuts. And then we had a, which was typical, unfortunately, with the agency I was at, an occupied stolen vehicle on a traffic stop. And we we had five districts, usually a couple rovers and a couple supervisors. So you could have seven people on a felony traffic stop. Okay. When I rolled up as the canine officer, and just basically I'm just a rover, I'm just an extra body on the scene. I'm nothing special, and I get out, I break leather because this is a felony traffic stop. And if you looked at what's called the TLETs or NCIC return on the computer, it was armed and dangerous, took vehicle armed. So it's like, how do we handle this? So you you're answering what your training is, is you're sitting in your A pillar and you're sitting out and you're listening to the primary officer over here uh giving his commands and you're out. And then I started, you know, there's no movement in the vehicle, so I started scanning around. I'm looking around. I've got six officers on scene. Myself and the primary officer are the only ones that had the gun out. The reason for that was the the email that we we received as a as at a department of if you break leather, you're doing this report. How friggin' stupid, you know, I I'm trying to be easy in my words here because I I I shared my aggression with my my guys and gals on shift was so what? Do your paperwork when it's time to do your paperwork, but make sure everybody goes home at the time of the night. And that's our whole thing of when something new comes in. Okay, so you have some extra paperwork. Just do it and get it done. It's that you know, I'm sitting there and I was literally not in fear of my life, but it's like I have mine out. I'm a third in the stack, so to speak, for a or uh a uh a felony traffic stop. And and then all these other guys are they're standing with their spotlights on and they're sitting there on their A pillar and they don't have anything. They don't have a rifle out, they don't have a pistol out. I look over and like, what are you doing? He's like, We're we're gonna handle this. It's uh use force, man. We don't want to dude, just do your do your due diligence, do your job, flank the paperwork later, knock it out. But holy crap. Now that went on for about two weeks, and then finally we got uh reverberized, as you will, from our our commander of patrol, and we and we finally fixed some of that stuff. But it's like, who cares about the paperwork? Make sure you go home to your family, make sure that these citizens go home without a scratch if you can, and and do your friggin' job. But paperwork is paperwork. But when you see these transitions happen in law enforcement, it's freaking scary, man. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I don't know if y'all can speak on that, but I know I can in the past 24 years.

SPEAKER_07 2:51:21

There's a chilling effect on a lot of when when policy is written and policy isn't thought through. Like, what are the farther reaching effects this is gonna have? Then you tend to have a chilling effect and you have all these things that come up, like guys not taking their guns out.

SPEAKER_03 2:51:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:51:34

Um I don't like being told when to take my gun out. I'll take it out when I'm damn good and ready, right? But if I take it out, it's because I want to. Yeah, and nothing is controlling me doing that. But if you get a young officer who's like, well, then I gotta do this paperwork, you know, like, oh, so like there's I like to have fun with shit, right? So like we try to tell you guys like there's ways to have fun with everything. Like, how about malicious compliance, right? Like, let's pull, let's document every time. Like, there's one, pulled my gun out because of this, pulled my gun out, and you just overload it with we called them PGPs, where I was from, pointing guns at persons. Okay, so PGP, then that eventually just turned into a checkbox. Yep, somebody got a gun pointed at them on this call, right? How many? I don't know, somebody did.

SPEAKER_03 2:52:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:52:18

And then now it because the reporting that literally became a checkbox. Yes, guns were out and pointed at people. It didn't have to be described anymore because it just overloaded the system. We're like, this is stupid.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:27

Six hours was the was the checkbox.

SPEAKER_07 2:52:29

Yep, yeah, just make it a checkbox, and then that's kind of the way to do it. But you got to do the paperwork because you will get caught short not doing it, and it will burn you to the ground. And it's just too easy to do. But malicious compliance. They say you want paperwork, cool, do paperwork. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:43

You know, and I had a great academy instructor. Um, a guy told me, he goes, Let me tell you something, Banning. You're a Marine. I know you love firearms, you're going out here as a hard charger, but here's the deal the pen is mightier than the sword. And he that resonated with me my entire career. If you can't articulate it, and if you're not, you don't have a legal reason to be there, get the fuck out of Dodge and friggin' articulate it. You have got to have a legal reason to be there, period. And if you can't articulate that, what's what's the holdup? What's the deal? And that has made my career amazing. Because if you, you know, you're coming in as a you you took that oath and you're coming. I don't care if you're the number three guy uh on that call and you've read everything that everybody else has read and you get there and you realize there's no legal reason to be there. I don't care if everybody in front of you has 10 years more than you. Be the one to speak up and get everybody out of the situation. I I didn't make many friends, but if we didn't have a legal reason to be there, it's time to go. It's time to get the hell out of there. And it took a lot for me to do that. And I didn't make a lot of friends, but I did that. And you can go and ask those officers all now. Yeah, Banning was the first one to tell us. We didn't have a legal reason to be there and we got out of there. We thought he was an asshole for doing it. But hey, guess what? I don't, I'm not here to make friends. We're here to serve the community, and that's what you have to do in law enforcement, period.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:11

Yeah, it's it's one of those things that officers will, you know, especially rookie, you know, newer officers, they don't want to speak up against senior people, you know. And if the senior guy's not saying anything, what are you gonna do? Yeah, I guess this is just how we do it. Yeah, it's just how we do it. Yeah, follow the law. Um, and that's a bad culture in law enforcement, and that's what we're trying to help try to remedy. So, um, but I want to get to some more of these questions. Uh, what is the biggest agency running staccato? I am actually kind of curious about that myself.

SPEAKER_07 2:54:45

I am too. I think it'd probably be uh LA County Sheriff's Office.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 2:54:51

That's a huge agency.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:52

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:54:53

If it's LA County, but that's not the whole age, it's individual officer purchase, kind of like yours.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:57

Yeah, how we are. Yeah. I want people to understand like the availability. Yes, being authorized to use a weapon is totally different than being issued the weapon. Most most oftentimes it's the cheapest thing that is uh authorized is what's going to be what's issued. Um, but a true agency that is uh what I would like to call a you know specialist and and uh always asserting trying to be the best in their craft and like you know where I'm at. Um our range masters, as long as they are master armorers in the weapon, we can carry it. And they are constantly trying to um be master armorers and in as many weapon systems as they can find. Uh so like for us, we can carry staccatoes because our people are master armorers and can teach you the staccato system. So it's pretty cool. Um, and I can tell you right now, like just manipulating like when he got out his HD, for me, I I'm not I'm a glot guy, it's all I ever carry. So have I shot a staccato? Yes, they're fun. But can I raise my hand and say that I know how to operate a staccato as though it's my tool, my weapon? No, I I can't. I don't know. I I've never worked a 1911 or 2011, whatever system you want to call it. I've never operated one of those. So I am not proficient, and I I couldn't be duty ready to to operate a staccato until I go through a course. And I think that's important for officers to understand. Like, just because you get a weapon system doesn't mean you're proficient in it.

SPEAKER_07 2:56:43

I strongly suggest you don't just go buy one and go, I'm good to go. Yes, with any gun. With any gun.

SPEAKER_00 2:56:51

Yes. You know, Mr. Billfold actually makes a good comment here. He goes, you know, and this is just Mr. Billfold, and once you get to know him, you'll understand that. So you go, have staccato send a pocket constitution out with every purpose. More cops might actually read the constitution for the first time if they did. You know, and I back that. I mean, there's there's nothing wrong with that. Not a bad idea. I wish staccato would do that. I mean, because these guys that are buying staccatoes, they care about their careers. They they truly want to be the tip of the spear. And to be the tip of the spear in something is not just shooting, it's knowing everything to protect the people that we are sworn to protect. And I know this panel will agree on that. I mean, it's it's not just shooting in the threat. We're out here, you know, 99.9% of the time we're going to a call, we're not pulling that gun. We're out there, we're wearing so many hats as law enforcement from from uh, I mean, you name it, man. I mean, I've been out to calls to where the friggin' kitchen sink is overfloating. I mean, and you know, and and law enforcement gets called for it for whatever reason, and and you're out there doing that thing. But yeah, I agree that the Constitution is 100% as a necessity as it is to be a good shot. And uh I I think our academies are are doing good, but they could do a lot better with it. And and the the the ongoing training throughout the years of constitution being the center of that.

SPEAKER_07 2:58:19

See, I'm that's what I I'm not confused on it, but I know I think it's a point of frustration with most people, and I know it it is for me at least. Like I understand, I feel like I understand the Constitution, case law, and like police work very well. I think I have a good handle on it because I was taught well, right? I didn't magic anything out. Like the academies are absolutely I'm sure there's one out there somewhere, but academies are teaching constitutional law, but what's the follow-up? Again, it's a supervisory problem. It's that policy training and supervision. Where's the supervision to ensure that it's always being done right? So it's not like you know, you see the guy stick his foot in the door 15 times on BWCs and you the supervisor doesn't even catch it because the supervisor doesn't know. Right, right. So whose fault is it? It's it it always goes to the top. You have to ensure that the people that are working for you understand your expectations for the community. And the community has to make their expectations known if asked, right? And if even if not asked, like, hey, do you like uh Mr. Bill Fold, if he went to his local agency and said, What are you doing as far as constitution training? I'd like to offer a class for him. You know, if qualified to do so, like here's I would like to know what you're doing for him. And are you ensuring these things are happening?

SPEAKER_03 2:59:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:59:35

I think unfortunately a lot of people get blown off. Like, of course we are.

SPEAKER_03 2:59:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:59:39

Right. Maybe they are though, right? It's like I can only look at things from as an agency from my point of reference, where I came from. And I know the guys are doing an awesome job. Failures here and there, but things getting caught early enough where they could be rectified and you could remediate behaviors and try to get someone on board. And if they were willing to get on board, save them and they're they do awesome, or find out they don't want to get on board and remove them.

SPEAKER_04 3:00:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:00:03

Right. But that's the it goes back to unions again. It's so hard to get rid of underperformers that like what do you what are we gonna do with civil service and everything else that goes like that? I'm not out here asking all the cops to get fired, but I think we've we've reached a point where we're it's like it's too hard. And like people who fail their qual, I've been saying this forever. You fail your qual and now you're on like desk duty, then why are you getting paid the same as a cop who's on the street?

SPEAKER_06 3:00:31

You should be taking pay cut, yes, a damn pay cut.

SPEAKER_07 3:00:35

You're going to police aid pay, so you're getting 14-15 bucks an hour, whatever it is. You're gonna get that for this month. Yeah, oh now you're punishing me. Yes. Yeah, yes, you're correct. Yep, but you you can't do the policeman job. Why am I paying you what the cop out there answering you're now radio calls you're not answering, or taking the reports you're not taking? Yep. So until we get serious about what we really expect of people, I don't nothing's gonna change anyway. Yeah, but I the way I look at it is I think the group of instructors that I associate with um are making changes at big agencies and small agencies all across this country, and that infection of wanting to do better is hitting the right people and it's spreading.

SPEAKER_02 3:01:18

Yeah. So and once you're able to put the why behind what you're training and why you're doing it, like it it's hard to argue. Like if you can put the why behind it, that's the hardest part to like as soon as a big agency, especially I'm a big fan of getting it to big agencies first, and once it it trickles to everything else. But um, if you can get behind the why and a big agency gets it, they're like, oh fuck, okay, shit, that makes sense. You're doing it because of this. Here's why. Once it's publicly known that they understand that, they're screwed. They gotta do it, they got to change. Because if they don't, now they were aware and they did nothing, that's worse. That's worse than those that that don't know. Um, so explaining the why.

SPEAKER_07 3:02:07

Again, we get into I have a question for your audience and you guys if we could get young officers, old officers, officers in general, to better understand the community really doesn't care if you don't get that one crack rock. Right? They don't really care if you don't bust that one case at the at the expense of someone else's rights. Like you pull the dipshit over, he's an asshole. Fuck you, fuck you, whatever. Why are you taking that personal? Right. Right? Could it be fun? And have I done it? Absolutely. Like, oh, you want to play this game? Yeah. Too bad for you. I know all the rules. You're fucked.

SPEAKER_03 3:02:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:02:51

Because I know all the rules and I know exactly what I can and can't do, and I'm Going to ruin your freaking day. But that was just me being immature and stupid, right? If we could get guys to understand, like it's not us versus them, right? Which it all too often is, especially young guys working midnights when the only people out are criminals or dipshits running around doing felonious shit. Right. And it's really a cat and mouse game of like fun and play. But like the rest of the community is in bed at night. And when they come out in the morning, they don't want police following them around. Right. And when they do call you, they just want you to come and answer the questions they have and take care of it the best you can. Right? It's it's not personal. Don't take it personal. It's easy to say, hard to do, but don't take it personal. Just go treat it like it's a job, and eventually it just becomes way easier.

SPEAKER_02 3:03:41

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Um, Harrison said case law says you cannot reduce, remove a government worker's pay without due process. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:03:55

Is that federal, state, or local? That's my that's my answer to that. So I mean it's it's I mean, here's the deal. I mean, me is a firearms instructor, Chris is a firearms instructor. If you're not cutting the mustard, you're over here. You're not you're not out there in the public. Does that need to be just as important for our constitution? 100%. You know, it's uh, you know, our big thing with our with our the people that are on the show, it's like constitution number one, and I agree with that. You know, firearms number two, agree with that as well. However, I think it needs to be more equality. I think it needs to be the the same because we carry this big tool on our right or left side, depending on your your right or left hand.

SPEAKER_02 3:04:43

If you're either right or you're wrong, yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 3:04:46

You brand us that firearm, you you better be 100 and a million percent correct. If you're putting rounds down range, you better be a million percent correct. But on our daily activities of everything that we're doing as law enforcement out there every day, that constitution has got to be right here in reference to the the people that have that have sworn to protect. If we're out there and we don't we don't know what we're doing in reference to that, that's on the top guy. And that's a domino effect all the way down to patrol. We we've got to be better as chiefs out there, as sheriffs out there, the elected officials as well, to make sure our guys on the ground have the training, period. I I don't know, you know, there should be no reason that Eric and I have two cops, one good donut going out here and and Eric doing what he does amazingly well and taking these guys, these officers out here that don't know what the the First Amendment is. We shouldn't have that platform right now, but we do. Yeah, so we're gonna keep going out there one at a time, and we're gonna we're gonna put these people out there. They they should know that people can record in public places, just being one of them. If it's a public place, by God, if your eyes can see it, a camera can too. And that's gotta be just as important as us out at the firing range. And just as important as us knowing where we can be.

SPEAKER_07 3:06:16

Yeah, yeah. You can't be you can't be here doing this. Yes, I can.

SPEAKER_02 3:06:20

Yep. Yep. Um, yeah, I give a shout out to Mr. Billfold's comment here. He said, I thought I was gonna be frustrated with Chris Palmer tonight, and once again, I have to stand corrected for thinking that he would be a tool. So why would you think I'm a tool?

SPEAKER_00 3:06:34

Well, well, that's that's a big compliment, man.

SPEAKER_02 3:06:37

That's a big compliment. Yeah, huge. We've had um, because we listen, we had a chief on here one night, yeah, and that chief couldn't even articulate trespass.

SPEAKER_00 3:06:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:06:49

And we were talking about we were we a lot of times what we typically do on our live streams is we watch body cam reviews as well. Um we're trying to kind of mold our how we do this. Like I said, the way we're doing this is the first time we've ever done it this way. And I actually think it's working. I like this better banning. I think we we're able to get our guests to be able to talk about everything that we want them to talk about, and now we're getting to the questions. I just feel like it flowed better. But um the point I'm getting to is we've had people on here in the past that they're law enforcement and they try to come across cops planing. They try to they try to talk down, they try to shit. In the case of the chief that I'm talking about, motherfucker couldn't even explain trespass correctly, like without violating somebody's rights. And afterwards, Benny and I got, I'm like, bro, like that was brutal. I was like, that was brutal because he was so wrong. And we we told him he was wrong. I'm like, well, that's not really how it works. And you know, you're trying to be nice to your guests, but at the same time, like, when you're fucking wrong, you're wrong. It's just what it is, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 3:08:01

And so uh and and Eric and I are just fucked arts. Meaning, yeah, we're we're the masses of of law enforcement across this country. We want to truly protect the people that that that look at our oath as a something serious. I look at it as something serious. I know Eric and I know Chris when he was in his, we only bring you know real people on here, but we've got to bring the full encompass on here. And we brought some people on here who are like, holy shit, man, what did what did you just but yeah, that's their opinion. That's the way they were taught. And now they're the the high anarchy, whatever it is at their department now, and it's like they can't even do it. And that's that's the problem in this country. And it's like, you know, we're here to bridge that gap. We want to make it close to where people have no problems coming to us asking us questions. When we arrive on the scene and they're doing their First Amendment right to film on a frigging sidewalk that's paid for our taxpayers to where we, in reality, it's like we drive by and we say, Hey, they're they're filming on a sidewalk, they're not doing anything that's breaking the law, and now it's our job to call the person that called 911 or the administrative line and say, Hey, is what I'm observing right now, is that what your problem is? And they say, Yeah. And he his his lens looked over towards our bank or our insurance agency or this or that. And then we can actually say to them, they're not breaking the law. This is this is a public sidewalk. If you have something on your computer screen within your private domicile of your insurance agency or bank, don't show it to the window. Shut your fucking window and have some privacy. Oh no. You got to use customer service on that side too. You know, so so here's the deal. Same with cops. These cops are like, I have TLETs or N LETs or OLETs or C LETs open on their screen. And a guy walks past, he's got a camera, he's like, You can't look at this. This is this. Yes, he can. Yes, he can. Turn it off, have password control, use hummingbird out of Florida. They send you that e-learning about you're already breaking it. Yep. You know, have the stage just eyes that are qualified to look at it, look at it, and that's it. If you've got it open when somebody's walking by with a camera, that's on you. Maybe you need to check your fucking surroundings. Excuse my French, but this really pisses me off. We have so many ways to check so many things, do it in a way to where the people that are not uh gifted with the the reason to be able to look at that, to look at it. Fucking shut it down. Look at it when it's time to look at it. Maybe it's not the great time. Don't sit there on a high horse because you got a gun and a badge on and say, Oh, I'm gonna arrest you because you filmed this because I was over here in the public looking at this shit and running this bird. Well, guess what? You're that's right, you're in the public.

SPEAKER_07 3:11:05

Shut that shit down. I can't remember where I heard it, but I've done it like two or three times, and I was like, that's a hilarious, and it was fun as shit. So, like on a crime scene where the guy shows up and wants to film or asks, you know, like just go interact with them. Yeah, like I think a lot of times cops, and this has just been my observation. We treat everything like it's the damn crime of the century. What's going on over there? Nothing. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Seeker squirrel. Yeah, don't worry about it. Nothing to see here and the house is on fire. C4 classified. But just tell them. Like, it isn't it isn't a secret, right? Like some dude got shot in the alley. Oh, what happened? I don't know. Yeah, he's dead. He's in the alley. He's here protecting the you think it's a gang related, no idea. But as far as I know, the guy's dead in the alley. What else you got?

SPEAKER_00 3:11:52

But but think about this.

SPEAKER_02 3:11:53

A little information goes a long way.

SPEAKER_00 3:11:56

A lot of this is our FTOs and our administration. So what do they what do they train us? You're over here, and I and I can speak on this because my department, the larger one I worked with, was going through a huge investigation when I got hired. It's they always told me if you see a camera, if you see a microphone, if you see this and that, you can't comment. You can't do this, you can't do that. Always get our PIO, our public information officer out there to comment on things. Here's the deal: our patrol officers are running into these people 98% of the times. You have to give them the latitude to say what's publicly available. I see what you see. Yes, there's a fire there. I see what you see, yes, there's a body under the unfortunately it's still under investigation. Contact our officer. You don't have to be like, oh, you got to get it back, you got to go back here. It's a quarter mile back, it's this and that, yada yada yada. I understand that for investigating certain offenses, we have to have a ring of the caution tape, the ring of the police tape for what we're doing. But you don't have to be a robot.

SPEAKER_07 3:13:04

Yeah. And if you do, don't even tell them what kind of shell casings. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:13:10

You with your associations, and you have to be able to be that public figure if they're sticking you there to keep people going past the line. You've you still have to be human, period.

unknown 3:13:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 3:13:22

Um like go up and tell them like, come over here, like come over here on this side of the tape. Like you can shoot down there and get a better view. Like, just like you know, it's just like, I don't give a shit, you're here. Like it's fine. Yep. Like it's we I think we take a lot too personal. And I think I had to I just want to hit this one too, because I think some people will get a kick out of it. And I I think this is it's passed down from FTO to OIT all the time. Is like, am I under arrest? Well, we just got to talk to you, right? The whole like keep it a secret. He knows what the fuck he did. Yeah. Right. So I just tell him, just tell him. Yeah, dude, you're under arrest. Turn around. Well, he might run. No shit. Yeah. But he's gonna run when you go grab him anyway. Like it, but now what is he doing? He's resisting arrest. Yeah, right. Now you've allowed you've gauged his capacity to understand, you've allowed him to demonstrate that he doesn't want to do it, and he's giving you cues at distance to deal with it. This whole like, oh no, we just gotta, we just gotta talk to you a little bit, not a big deal. And then, ah, you're under arrest.

SPEAKER_02 3:14:15

Like, it's a second, I don't know, we're just dumb. We yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:14:19

I think it comes into culture policing and we talked about that when we were for use of force with the 40s. We were explaining we want them to tell people you're under arrest, you know, basically do what I tell you to do, or I'm gonna hurt you. That's the kind of phrase we would give. Hey, Phoenix Police Department, you're under arrest. Put your hands behind your back or I'm gonna hurt you. That's how we would explain it. And they're like, Well, what if they're not under arrest? I'm like, then why are we shooting them in the 40? Yeah. But so can you use force on someone who's not under arrest?

SPEAKER_02 3:14:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 3:14:47

Okay, so this goes to this further because we we had to have a talk with our lawyer about it.

SPEAKER_02 3:14:52

I worked in a um entertainment district, so constantly there'd be fights around bar scenes and all that stuff, and I have to split the crowd like the fucking Red Sea, and you get people to be like, Oh, I'm I'm standing here. Get the fuck out of my way. I can put my hands on you.

SPEAKER_07 3:15:07

But you can even detain someone physically if you have reasonable suspicion, right? Correct. You're not even at PC yet. Yes. If I can detain someone, so we asked our lawyer, I said, if if I tell someone they're under arrest and they're not under arrest, have I violated anything? He's like, Well, what if they call it a false arrest? I'm like, nah, can't use words. I have to be able to, you have to articulate that I arrested you, which is a process at jail, right?

SPEAKER_06 3:15:31

Right.

SPEAKER_07 3:15:31

Not that I'm detaining you. Because people want to argue that one. Am I being detained? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 3:15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:15:37

Right? Don't skirt around. No, we just want to talk to you. Like, if they're detained, tell them. If they ask, yes, you are. But if they want to move, hey, dude, you're under arrest. Turn around, put your hands behind your back. And I he's like, I don't know if we can use that word. And I said, Well, let me ask you this. I just want to detain this guy. And I can lawfully use force to detain him because I have reasonable suspicion. He's like, Yes. I say, if he fights me, then what do I charge him with? He's like, resisting arrest. I'm like, exactly. Right. So let's get out of what we think someone could think it means, and let's just stick with what it means. And I said, Arrest is a far more understood word to people than detained. Right. I I tell this story too, like walking down the beach in San Diego, and an officer said, he goes, Hey, can I talk to you? And I said, No. And I just kept walking, right? I mean, because nothing good has ever come from talking to the police. Yeah. Right. He didn't say a word. I just walked and he just I just kept on walking. But like, why would I go? Sure. Like, no. I'm in San Diego. I'm going to talk to you. He probably watched our show and he was like, shit, I don't have anything to but if he if he came up, and if he came up and said, Hey, come here, legally, I've been detained.

SPEAKER_03 3:16:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:16:46

Right? I'm not free to move. And now it goes only on my feeling. That's what I think cops got to understand. It's not what you said or anything. It's what does the person feel? Do they feel like they're free to leave? Right. And that is a detention.

SPEAKER_04 3:16:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 3:16:59

Right. Yeah. So unless you preface it with, like, hey, Eric, at any moment you can walk away from me. I just want to ask you some questions. Are you willing to stay here and talk to me? Well, I don't know, man. I'm very sure. Hey, it seems like you're uncomfortable, but if I'm just letting you know you're not, I'm not holding you here. Like you literally do have to explain it that deep sometimes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:17:15

And I I that's one of the things that we push on here is that police education doesn't stop between police officer to police officer. It goes into when you're dealing with the public. I I have been audited. My audits are online. And one of my auditors, uh Cody Highroller, that's his YouTube name. He's he audited me. He tried to audit me. And it's out there. And I handled it in such a way that it's like a bragging point for law enforcement. Like, this is how you fucking deal with an auditor. You know, it's the same, it's the same concept as uh educating it. I literally saw this guy filming one of our scenes out in an entertainment district that's very busy. And um, I was like, Oh, he's I I see a guy filming. I was like, Yeah, so I just walked up. I was like, Hey man, you got any questions? That's my job. My job is public service. Hey, this is your community. Is there something that you need clarification on so you know what's going on? Like, that's my job, that's how I see it. So he's like, What well, what's happening over here? It's like, well, we had a fight. Um, this guy right here was wasted and tried to pick a fight with a guy that was not and lost, and now he is trying to file charges, and that's not gonna happen. I was like, and and so we're dealing with the drunk guy. And he's like, Oh, okay. And and that was it. He didn't have it. I answered anything he could have possibly had right then and there, and that goes into the education of things. Hey man, uh, I pulled you over for this reason. I need you to step out of the vehicle. Oh, I don't gotta step out of the vehicle, I know my rights. Okay, cool. There's a case law for drivers, it's called Pennsylvania vs. Mims. Um, you have a black handle sticking out from the past. I see it. No secret scroll stuff. No, hey partner, 1015. I see 32. None of that shit. I see a black handle, it looks like a pistol grip. I need you to step out of the vehicle. If you don't, I'm going to perceive that that's a weapon. If you try to reach for it, bad things are gonna happen. I am telling you exactly what I'm seeing and perceiving at the time. It takes a lot of guessw out. Guesswork is what gets us in problems. When you educate the people, whether it's telling them what you see and perceive versus or just educating them on the law, it goes a long fucking way in law enforcement.

SPEAKER_07 3:19:48

And talking to people calmly, yes, not all the time, but generally can keep it a bit calmer. Because some people will just be mad, but it doesn't help when both are when the cops get asked up, everybody gets asked up. Yes. Like, oh, calm down, dude.

SPEAKER_02 3:20:03

Yeah, yeah. But I've had so many times where I'm like, hey bro, I see the gun. I don't give a fuck. You you you're not touching it. And they're like, uh, uh uh. And I'm like, I understand. You're allowed to have it. You this is Texas. You can have a gun. It's like that's not the route I'm trying to go right now. I just need you to step out of the car. And then they will, and it's not a problem. I again, I you're talking to a person 20 years, I I can only name a handful of times where I got in a use of force because of me. Like it was it, there's no avoidance. Every use of force I've ever been in was because of another officer. Not necessarily it's their fault, but they were in a use of force. I came to help. It was, but if it was my sheet and I was dealing with the call, I don't get any use of force. Why? Because I educate.

SPEAKER_07 3:20:57

There's so much training. Like that it opens the door to so like pre-attack indicators. Yes. Right? Pre-attack cues. Like the guy's sitting there and he does have a gun. He's just like, hey man, I'm just doing my thing. He's not giving off pre-attack indicators as much as the guy who's like doing the nervous look thing, right? Right. Like, uh all out of the way. Hey, you need to see the gun, keep your hands a street. Man, I don't want I'm backing the fuck away from the door. Yeah. Like, I don't need to stand here and have this conversation now.

SPEAKER_03 3:21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:21:22

Let's, I'm gonna move, let's deal with this. He's acting in a way that's unirrational, it's not controllable, it's unpredictable. Why are you gonna sit there and try to figure out how unpredictable it can get?

SPEAKER_04 3:21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:21:33

When people tell you who they are, show you who they are, believe them.

SPEAKER_04 3:21:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 3:21:36

Right? Oh, why are we doing this? Like, because I don't want to sit up here next to the door and deal with this guy and and have to shoot him because he made a bad decision, right? Because he put himself into a situation that forced my hand to do it. I'm gonna use this time and distance to get back here, and he's gonna have to take even more steps to get to that point. And then it'll be very clear. We used to tell our guys, let them articulate to the public why you needed to whoop their ass.

SPEAKER_04 3:21:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:21:59

So that when everybody sees the video, they're like, oh fuck yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:02

Yep. It makes sense. Um, Mr. Billfold said, I want to explain myself out of respect to Chris. I thought that he might only touch on firearm stuff, and he actually comes across as a man who gives a shit. That is all I can ask from a cop. So I do give a shit. He does give a shit. So that was a good compliment. Um but yeah, I think uh I think in a closing note, because we've we're we're running three hours here, but um, closing note, I want to say that the the takeaway from all of this is education. Again, that's the big thing. If we're gonna fix problems, guys, it comes into education. You can ex you can have expectations is that police should know things. Your expectations, your unmet expectations is what's going to leave you wanting because ultimately. You can expect the all the things in the world, unless they're actually happening or they're aware of the issue, it's not gonna happen. But just like we're talking about when dealing with a suspect and and calling out stuff versus the secret squirrel stuff. I think that's the big thing. Is um that that's the difference maker. And that's what I think I I've learned from Chris tonight is seeing the problem and calling it out. Here's the issue facing it. Um that's a problem in law enforcement. We don't want to face the issue, we want to we want to talk about it. Oh, this is a problem, but nobody wants to face the real issue. And most of the time the real issue is ourselves. Honestly, it's ourselves. We're in our own way. Um and I think I think staccato, I think Chris, I think guys like Chris, Chansey Poge, uh, Brian Stahl, um, there's there's a lot of other great names out there that are leading the way, creating change uh in the right direction, and they're not they're not gatekeeping. That's the thing. You're getting you guys aren't gatekeeping, you're sharing it, and that's what I like.

SPEAKER_07 3:24:09

None of us are original. We didn't think any of this shit. This has all just been taught to us, and we've figured out our own path for discovery, like how to tell other people about it.

SPEAKER_02 3:24:17

We're not reinventing the wheel. We're we're sharing what we've learned about making the wheel and how to make it work better. So that's what I like. I I think that's tonight's message, guys, is uh don't gatekeep, share the knowledge, and confront the problem. Confront the problem. I think that's the big thing. So um you got any uh closing remarks, Chris?

SPEAKER_07 3:24:38

No, I hope you guys had a good conversation. If they've got anything they want to follow up on, hit you or me up.

SPEAKER_05 3:24:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 3:24:43

Um just go out, get training. If you want to train with us, train with us. You want to train with someone else, I'll point you in any direction you want to get. Um don't make excuses for our fellow law enforcement officers, but don't throw them all under the bus. And then whenever you guys watch a BWC, this is one thing I want people to know. You can watch it and you get this chance to see in perfect detail everything across it, but realize their eyes are only looking at certain places at a certain time. We don't know what they were perceiving in the moment. So when you see something that seems like it's going bad, like, oh man, with that guy guy could have totally done that better. What did we do to mitigate that ahead of time?

SPEAKER_01 3:25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 3:25:23

What are what are the things, the cues that led up to it? That, well, if we had done this, this would have at least made it look more tasteful, right? Because having to kill somebody is never going to look good, right? But what can we do to make it more palatable? Where the the community and everybody looks like looks at it and goes, I don't see how they added any other situation. The hardcore ones will be, you know, no, there's no way they shouldn't have shot that guy. Well, he's getting this guy was getting shot. Yeah. Right. He was getting shot today. Did it need to be right at that moment? Should it have been an hour earlier or could it have been two hours later? I don't know. But what did we working backwards from the shooting, what did we do to mitigate it from happening to the best of our ability? What did we do to not have this happen while still answering the call and still taking care of the community? What did we do that we could have done, or what could we have done that might have changed it? Not what would have, but what other options were there?

SPEAKER_02 3:26:15

Yeah. Agreed. Banning, you got any closing remarks, sir?

SPEAKER_00 3:26:19

My whole thing is cop, again, not very long, 21 years. I've written several gun companies letters while growing up in law enforcement, never got a return. Being snail mail, sending it to the company overseas, never got anything. Even to the North American counterparts that supported uh law enforcement, never got a return. I wrote a letter in 2021 to Staccato and got a return uh in less than eight weeks uh to the sheriff's office. Um and they basically said, we're here for you. What do you need? We will do what you need for your department. And our department was very small. So understanding staccato, how how how big they are, what they're doing, watching from when they came from, it was it STI, I believe it was called. He came into staccato, and then they launched Staccato, and they're now they're growing amazingly. Um, but for them to answer me, a small deputy from a small county, a letter handwritten from staccato itself, coming back to me saying, What do you need? How can we help you? Now, my leadership at the time just didn't want the help. They didn't, they didn't have the funds for things, and they didn't, but staccato answered that call. Um, and I've written so many companies, hey, we're doing this, this, and this. How can you help us on this? It was in reference to training, in reference to equipment. We know things cost money, and Staccato was right there and they answered it. So for you working for a company of that speaks miles my direction, because that's for the community that we serve and protect. Staccato was willing to do things for our small agency at the time, even though my agency, the agency heads, didn't have it within them to receive that training. Staccato was willing to put it out. And I just want to say thank you for staccato. And if Eric and I can come and support what you guys are doing, if it fits in the deck of cards, I'm 100% there. I know Eric will be as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:28:25

Oh, yeah. It'd be great because I'm not a shooter. That's what makes it fun.

SPEAKER_07 3:28:29

I'll look at the next time I'm coming down to the ranch here for one of those classes. I'll see, I'm pretty sure I can get you guys in there.

SPEAKER_02 3:28:35

That'd be fun. We appreciate that very much. Um, yeah. And to Wade Lucero, nope, we're not giving away a staccato tonight. Uh too funny.

SPEAKER_00 3:28:45

We we may get to something in in a couple years that that allows us to do that. And hey, who knows? Yeah. It's it's not it's not a it's a it's a firm no right this second, but it may be a soft yes in the future. So keep keep your head in the right place and keep supporting the show, and we'll we'll try to do what we can.

SPEAKER_02 3:29:04

Yes, sir. Uh, everybody, thanks for tuning in tonight, Chris. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate it, brother. Thank you. This was a good time. Um, I had fun anyway. Uh and thank you, sir. Everybody out there, have a good night and thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 3:29:18

Appreciate it, y'all.