Open Lines – Presence, Pain, and Police Accountability

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Transcript

Cold Open, Disclaimers, And Roll Call

SPEAKER_09 0:01

Disclaimer. Welcome to Two Cops One Donut Podcast. The views and opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Two Cops One Donut, its host or affiliate. The podcast is intended for entertainment and informational purposes only. We do not endorse any guests' opinions or actions discussed during the show. Any content provided by guests is of their own volition, and listeners are encouraged to form their own opinions. Furthermore, some content is graphic and has harsh language. Your discretion advised and is intended for mature audiences. Two Cops Wendona and its host do not accept any liability for statements or actions taken by guests. Thank you for listening. What's going on, Banning?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

What's up, brother? How are you?

SPEAKER_09 1:03

Not much, not much. I got in the house, Badge 502, the one and only. How are you, sir? Hi, everybody. And then we got the man, the myth, the legend behind the scenes out front and center. Mr. Alan Nelson. What's up, buddy?

SPEAKER_11 1:19

Not much. How are you, gentlemen?

SPEAKER_09 1:21

Oh, doing wonderful. That mic's sounding crispy, buddy. I like it.

SPEAKER_11 1:24

Yeah, I like that.

Schedule Shift And Open Mic Invite

SPEAKER_09 1:31

Wrong podcaster, sir. Wrong podcast. That's for that podcast we said about banning earlier. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, crap. Okay, so um, agenda. Agenda today, guys. Um, first and foremost, I missed last week. Sorry. Had things going on. I was out of state, and uh just the way things went. Um, other news is we're gonna be moving to Sunday nights. So Sunday nights, nine Eastern. I got uh pushed back on nights. Uh, I have fulfilled my my destiny, if you will, on day shift and uh got bumped back to my I shouldn't say bumped back. That was my spot. I just was trying to go to days to help out the other day, Sergeant. And uh I accomplished everything that he needed done, and he said, All right, appreciate it. Go back to nights. So I'm on nights. Yeah, go shoo. You're you you're no use to us anymore. Go lackey. Yeah, so I left. I'm back on nights, so that means Monday night is no longer available for me. So I am switching to Sunday nights, and I know it competes with football and all that stuff. You know what? I don't care. It is what it is. Uh, it's better than doing it on a Tuesday night or anything like that, which I'm not available anyway. So fair. Um, tonight I have uh opened the floodgates, okay? There's a lot of people that wanna they have stuff to say, they always want to participate in our conversations. That part's cool. There's also a lot of people that they want to talk and troll and do all this stuff, and I always approach the same people that try to troll or try to say that we're full of shit or whatever it is. I I give you a platform to come on here and discuss or debate whatever it is you want to talk about. Because sometimes I agree with you, you just don't shut your mouths, you know, so I can tell you. You just want to keep chatting, chatting, chatting, and chirping at me. And I'm like, I if you just shut up for a second, you'd understand. We probably agree more than we disagree. Lucho blah blah blah. So, yeah, so I opened the door for y'all tonight. If you want to be on here and you got a topic you want to discuss, all you need is a mic and a camera. So you could do that from your cell phone, technically. Uh, it just it's a it's a lot harder if you're not doing it from a computer, I'll be honest. But if you jump into our Discord, the mods are gonna be posting the link. Jump into our Discord and uh talk to our mods about wanting to be on, just do it in the general chat. That's where everybody I think is doing it tonight. Uh, and and do that. So I am looking over at our our chat and seeing who's in the house tonight. Mr. Bill Fold said, I wish the trolls would jump on. I only troll Eric about his take on qualified immunity. So see, and and that's the funny part too. We've talked about qualified immunity. I agree with a lot of qualified immunity people that don't like it, that it needs to be changed. So a lot of people think it needs to go away, period. I'm of the opinion it just needs to be fixed, it has problems. But I think the purpose of it, we need to have it so we can keep cops doing the job. Because if you give them no protection, I don't see them doing it, even if it's just perceived protection, because Mr. Bill Fold's gonna go nuts. Well, that's not the protect. They even without it, they'd I get it. I'm saying it's the perceived, you know. Uh it's like me saying, Hey, I'm gonna give you this car, and you'll be like, Okay, cool, but what's the insurance? And you're like, Well, it doesn't have insurance because you don't need it, because you're not gonna get an accident. Uh no, no, I'm not gonna get on that. No, no. So uh, what is going on in your world, Banning? Let everybody know.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Man, I just uh the past week um had a big get together for work. So I've been was down in the San Antonio area, it's uh with a with the tech company I work for, and they had sales kickoff, so we got to see all the the new stuff that's coming in for 2026, and it's been uh been great, and I got a lot of travel coming up, and life is good, man. Kids are great, wife is great, and uh today's another day.

SPEAKER_09 5:39

I like it. I like that, sir. Um, I'm looking at uh Anthony desperately trying to figure out why he's lagging. I can see it. I'm lagging bad. I can see it in his face. Alan, you're doing fine, buddy.

SPEAKER_12 5:50

Yeah, it's it's all right though, because I like to I like to talk and then see what it looked like when I was talking, so it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_09 5:59

Oh shit. Okay.

SPEAKER_12 6:00

Look around the room real fast.

SPEAKER_11 6:01

I can see if I have is that a green screen behind you, Anthony? No, that's his is that your actual okay. I'm making sure because every time banning puts his up, you might as well wait like six seconds. So yeah, like something about restreaming a green screen, don't go.

SPEAKER_12 6:17

No, I was like, uh, I like my desktop so much that I want it on camera, so I had to build a whole nother setup in front of my setup. So I have the setup in front of my setup.

SPEAKER_09 6:24

Yeah, well, let's be honest, the one behind him is for his OnlyFans feet page. 100%. Yeah, yeah. So then he just has to turn around, kick his feet up on the desk, and let's do all the work.

SPEAKER_11 6:36

Yeah, well, he does have a spot there above his head that you know where that silver plaque's gonna go. That is true. That is true.

SPEAKER_09 6:42

I think we need to give a round of applause for badge 502 and uh getting his uh silver plaque from YouTube, 100,000 followers.

SPEAKER_12 6:49

That was a wild, wild ride. I've been making content since like 2000 say say 10, once I started my first like my paintball page back in the day. And you know, that was that was a lot of fun. And I had a firearms education one, and it was firearms news and education. I had uh really an athlete, yeah, an athletic journey one. Or was there uh from EMT? I don't know how much I respect it. I was a brain safety officer and a firearms instructor before I was uh an emt.

SPEAKER_09 7:19

I don't think I would uh respect that page knowing you're an emt.

SPEAKER_10 7:22

Nope. I was so funny on it too. I I thank you, sir. I made I got to make fun of senators, it was great. Humble and funny. By Wiki Old School digital robot.

Trolls, Discord, And Audience Ground Rules

SPEAKER_12 7:36

Uh but yeah, finally, uh you know, who would have thought that talking about butt stuff on the internet would his beard used to be black when he started. 100%. If I pulled up a video, you wouldn't even believe it. Lots of earrings, whole bunch of earrings.

SPEAKER_09 7:50

His hair is down to his chest.

SPEAKER_12 7:52

My hair was flipped up in the front real hot.

SPEAKER_09 7:54

Oh, I had that one. I had that one. Yep. I was Alan's still almost rocking that.

SPEAKER_12 8:00

I was the I was the coolest kid this side of shenanigans.

SPEAKER_09 8:05

Nice. Um, but yeah, if you guys are in the audience tonight, if you jump on our Discord and our our mods are going to be posting the Discord channel several times. One, we're trying to encourage more traffic over to our Discord. Um, and two, we want to give uh we want to give back to the community that's been helping us build. And I don't. I and I think that one thing that nobody does is they never open their platform for their people to be on there, you know. Um, I think I think Pornhub was probably the first one to start doing that. And then um, you know, they nobody got that joke, Jesus Pete. They were visiting their top fans. So it was like, holy shit.

SPEAKER_12 8:52

Is that true? That's amazing.

SPEAKER_09 8:53

Yeah, yeah, that was that that was all over my hotmail news when that first started.

SPEAKER_12 9:00

It was back on your CompuServe.

SPEAKER_09 9:02

Yeah, exactly. The web TV shit. But yeah, if you guys want to get on, you gotta have a camera, you gotta have a question, topic, video, and you gotta let our mods know what it is so they can uh check it out and let us know that it's worthy of jumping on. I think we've already got a little line going. It's not that not everybody's got the stuff to do this or the willingness or stuff like that.

SPEAKER_12 9:26

So you really have to have the uh you gotta have the stones and the cojones to lag with me, man. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_09 9:32

Yeah, exactly, right? So uh Trey may be joining us tonight. We're not a hundred percent sure. He said he was available on Sunday nights, and he said on his gateway computer too. Gateway was the shit back in the day, wasn't it? That mo cow computer, baby. You couldn't play with that.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Uh you got to get online and build it and wait six weeks for it to get delivered.

SPEAKER_09 9:55

Oh, yeah. Man, I the then the cow box would come in. Yeah, yeah. They don't know, these guys don't know.

SPEAKER_12 10:01

They don't know.

SPEAKER_09 10:03

I don't know.

SPEAKER_12 10:04

It wasn't sourcing graphics cards, that wasn't a thing. You just bought your computer.

SPEAKER_09 10:07

Yep, when that thing came in, and then it was not too terribly long after the Nextel started coming out.

SPEAKER_12 10:14

Yeah, I miss my Nextel so much.

SPEAKER_09 10:16

I do too. Okay, so tell me if you guys learned this trick because this is what we would do. I would wait, we'd have a buddy go to the store or whatever, and wait for them to send him on a trip. Uh, I I was working for a painting business at the time. So we did a we had a dude go on a lunch trip and like, you know, hit us up, you know, when you get there. So he gets there and he's pulling, he's like, I'm just pulling in now, guys. And we're like, all right, cool. So you wait about three, four minutes, so you know he's inside and everybody can hear it. And then you just get on that thing, oh you piece of shit, motherfucker. Like just start what whatever it was you wanted to do. That oh yeah, you know. I don't think that was a thing then, but I think we did something like that, and you couldn't stop it. You had to run to your phone to try to get it out there and turn the fucking volume all the way down.

SPEAKER_12 11:05

I used to love my next tell, man. It was just so convenient, you know. There's no nice.

SPEAKER_09 11:11

There's a quick yes. Oh my god, it was so annoying. Uh Marine Blood, uh, I want to start, I want to do it right away, baby. So um, let's start with the first one. If you got somebody to bring on, let's uh let's get it going. I've guys for those listening, we have no idea who's coming on. We don't know what the question is, we don't know anything. Only people that do know are our mods, and we're putting a lot of faith in them to screen these people. Does this Discord thing come on a floppy disk download or what?

SPEAKER_11 11:40

Oh shit. Not many people five and a half, baby. Five and a half. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_12 11:46

Gotta pull it up on my uh my 33.6 modem. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:53

Mom, hang up the phone. Kill the party line!

SPEAKER_09 11:59

Yeah, that was the thing. If somebody picked up the phone while you was on the internet, uh done. Crashed. Crashed. Yep, you'd be right in the middle of a chat room on AOL trying to like troll everybody. Wasn't even a word yet. Your mom's a bitch, and then you get kicked out by whatever. There it was. The trauma.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Right.

Tech Nostalgia And Crew Banter

SPEAKER_09 12:29

Remember you got so you got so good at the uh two cops, one donut. Loving the content. Great to see you. Thank you, John. Appreciate you, John Verde. Um, you got so good at the hearing the modem noise that you knew when you had a really good connection versus a crap connection. Yeah, it was crazy because I remember learning how to change the number that it would use to get on, and people were like, How'd you get on so quick? And I'm like, I'm a hacker. I'm a hacker. I would download uh progs, they call them progs for short for programs that were like you could color bomb people's AOL glasses up a little higher.

SPEAKER_12 13:13

Nerd.

SPEAKER_09 13:13

Yeah, oh I was super nerd, super nerd. I was all mischievous shit too. Color bomb on instant on AOL to like kick people out of their yeah, oh stupid shit. Yeah, they call it color bomb because it would send you so many instant messages and it would be a different color in the background every time. So this they call it color bombing.

SPEAKER_12 13:36

I've been dying, dying, and I've been I don't even know what to do about it because I I'm not someone who really uses like um like WhatsApp or any of those type of type of messaging programs. I don't use the I want unsecure one to be able to send people basically an away message from my text message. Like if you send me a text, I want to be able to have an auto message go out that says, you know, hey, busy. Can't really I can't do it. I don't know how to. I know there's one way there allegedly there was one way to do it by uh by setting your uh uh do not disturb to driving and it would send out a message, but it never sent one out for me. Really?

SPEAKER_09 14:13

All right, we got our first guest, guys. All right, let's see who we got. God, I'm so nervous. I tried to there we go. I hope I put on the odor. Oh, we got the chaplain. All right, everybody, stop drinking, don't swear. Chaplain, what's going on, brother?

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Doing well. How are you doing, sir?

SPEAKER_09 14:31

Oh, living the dream. We're uh we're just seeing how it goes tonight. We're seeing how our it sounds like our mods started. They they wanted Jesus on their side, so they got the chaplain on board.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

So I am yo. You good to go? Sorry about that. The uh I was getting a little reverb.

Badge502’s Creator Journey And Community Push

SPEAKER_09 14:49

Oh, okay. Are you still good? Well, we'll we'll sound check for you. There's no right. You feel good.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Yes, now I can hear everything.

SPEAKER_09 14:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Beautiful. Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_09 14:59

No worries. I just want to make sure good idea.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

One, you know, Banning, great to see you again since I saw you down in Florida, and uh really appreciate uh seeing you, sir. Um, I had a couple questions. Number one, which is why is it that more law enforcement departments and agencies don't bring on qualified professional chaplains to be a part of their quality teams? In other words, someone that uh has gone through the proper training, etc., to be there, not just for the clinical side, but the emotional, you know, spiritual side as well. And yet at the same time, they want them to volunteer, but yet we don't want them to be a part of the team. Why is that?

SPEAKER_09 15:50

Okay, so first, chaplain, before we jump into this, can you please explain to the layman out there what a chaplain is and does for a police department?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Uh I can. So as a uh police chaplain, uh I am licensed and trained to provide uh emotional and spiritual well-being support, not just to the officers, but also to the community. In addition, I am trained for doing death notifications, I'm trained for uh suicide, I'm trained for you know quite a few different aspects. As a non-sworn officer, the community will speak to me differently than they will my officers. And so it's actually a uh an opportunity to have a better conversation between the two. And so a chaplain can step into that role and uh basically help to de-escalate when certain individuals are anti-police. Sometimes they're able to show up and they can uh say something to an officer about uh maybe this is not the right time, have a give me a chance to talk to the family since uh I can recognize that there are having some additional emotional problems or physical problems, and I can help and assist in that manner. That's what a chaplain can do, and so much more.

SPEAKER_09 17:25

I like it. Okay, so now that everybody kind of understands, um I'm gonna address Uncle Fatty's comment here. He said, uh, great point. Local county jails are also in serious need uh for inmate chaplains. So something to keep in mind. Um, what are you drinking there tonight, chaplain?

First Guest: Police Chaplain Explained

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Oh uh well, I'm not drinking as well as you are, sir, since I can't get uh your version out here. Okay, but this is this is just a Pendleton right now.

SPEAKER_09 17:52

Oh, Pendletons wonderful. So uh I am I am partaking in some private stock smoke wagon tonight. Shout out to Smoke Wagon, best bourbon on earth. Not a sponsor, not yet, not yet. We're trying. Um but uh okay. So question first, chaplain, that I have for you is what is it, what happens when that person is in a particular denomination? Or it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

It doesn't matter. So as a chaplain, you are you're trained to uh accept, appreciate, and to love everyone exactly where they are. Um, I have worked with um Muslim, I've worked with Hindu, I've worked with atheist, I've worked with Christian, I worked with it doesn't matter. And so uh the first thing is proselytization. If you've not uh heard that word before, proselytization is when someone chooses to force or try to impose their belief system on somebody else in law enforcement or even in the military, you can't do that. That's uh it's not allowed.

SPEAKER_09 19:08

Yeah. So okay. So I'll I'll go with my perspective first on the question about um why chaplains aren't utilized more in law enforcement. Now, I can't say where because where I'm at, we have chaplains. They are utilized. Um, I don't think I think if anything, it's we don't have enough chaplains coming forward that want to help. Um they're they're they're spread out. So for where I'm at, it's not because they're not wanted or needed or used. Uh just simply we're a big city and they can't possibly, you know, I think we have two or three that I can think of off the top of my head that volunteer their time, just like you said, they volunteer their time when they can, but just so big. Now, for smaller cities and stuff, and then I think that addresses your part of the question a lot more. Uh, because we see the value in it. In a big city, we see the value in it. Any anytime you have somebody one that's willing to take uh the risk and the liability, because let's face it, chaplains put themselves in some scary spaces. Uh, for those that don't know that, I want you to watch the movie Saving Private Ryan, and you see the you see the uh the field chaplain just going across praying for people that are dying. Like, I swear to you, that's how chaplains are in the field with police. They they do some nutty moves sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Yeah, that's a fantastic movie on top of it.

What Chaplains Do On Scene

SPEAKER_09 20:32

Yeah. Uh but I also think that that could be a part of the issue is the liability issue that some departments may not want to take. They don't understand it, they don't, they haven't seen the value or the fruits of that labor. So I think ignorance could be a big part of that of why they're not taking it and addressing it and enrolling with it. Um that's just but that's me speculating. I I don't know. I guess I have a good impression of chaplains because being military, chaplains are awesome. Um, we I talked uh we had a miscarriage, we had two miscarriages, actually. And I, oh my god, I leaned so hard on our chaplain at that point. Um, you know, because my my wife's blaming herself, I'm blaming me not knowing not being able to do anything, and and I didn't know how to express my feelings as a young 20-something-year-old military kid. Like, and it really my chaplain really helped me grow, even though he's from Ohio. Uh I'm from Michigan. Shout out to Chaplin Wells. Um, and uh you know, to this day I could call him up and you know, just chew his ear, you know. Uh and great dude. So for me, I've always had a great impression of chaplains, but that hasn't been everybody's experience. It's not that they've had bad experiences with chaplains, I just think they've had none. And so then when you got a chaplain that's willing to come in, they're like, I don't know about that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

But you see, that that's why there's You know, uh, we have we have uh 11 chaplains for CMPD. I I work with the Charlotte Mecklenburg Police Department. I got no qualms saying that.

SPEAKER_09 22:09

Shout out to Emily Spindler.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

I uh I also uh uh I work with Stallings Police Department, Uni County Sheriff, I work with Ansi County Sheriff and many other uh organizations and agencies. Um you know one of the things that uh I always advise for every new chaplain because I I do uh teach quite a few chaplains, um, whether it be going down to like Miami Dade, um, I've even had some classes I've done for uh NYPD, uh NYMTA and LAPD and more. Number one, get yourself a best. Because if your officer is cold, you need to be cold. If they're hot, you better be hot. If they're wet, you're wet. And whatever's set in the car stays in the car. And whenever you go into the division or uh the precinct or however you call it, uh, you go top down, you talk to the captain if he's there, then you talk to your lieutenant, then you talk to the sergeant, then you talk to the line, but you don't go up. There's always a one-way every day, and you create this bond by being one available at three o'clock in the morning because nothing good ever happens at 3 a.m. And in addition to that, everything is kept in strict confidence. So I don't care if one person is just um you know saying some BS on the side, you you don't gossip about it, you just nod your head, accept it, and let it roll off and um and leave it right where it's at. If it was in the car, you leave it in the car. And so um every good chaplain should wear their vest and be outside with their officers. DV, they can make sure that they go first, expect you know, especially if it's in the kitchen, you stay outside the kitchen.

SPEAKER_09 24:08

Domestic violence, for those wondering what he's talking about.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

I'm sorry, yes, and so there's uh there's when you said that uh chaplains can get into uh precarious situations. I mean, not your exact words, but basically that. Yeah, and my officers are probably more protective of me than they are of themselves. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

It looks like we got a question on there from Mr. Lawrence. Says, uh Campbell Chaplin is cool. I love you, bro. However, certain chaplains simply seek to manufacture distrust largely on racial lines, such as Chris Nettles. What do you have to say about religious figures like him?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Well, first thing is um when it comes to religious figures, you won't I I believe that a chaplain, a true police chaplain, is not there for themselves. They're not self-promoting it, they're there for their officers. My officers are more important to me than most of my family because they are my family. When you have the distrust that's made by certain religious figures, then you gotta ask yourself, why? What was their reasoning for doing what they did or saying what they said that caused that that uh distrust and take yourself out of it? What's most important? Is it more important to focus on all these negatives, or is it more important to focus on your faith and also your support for your officers? I would rather focus on my officers.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

I like it. And I agree. Just on in my career, uh, when I worked at a larger agency in the Dallas Fort Worth area, anytime we had a fatality vehicle crash, um a suicide, or even uh a natural cause death that would get uh filtered through our our dispatch center. If I was on duty, I would always call our uh our fire chaplain, he was amazing. Um and I would call Steve out there, either it'd be on our on a crash site, because we all know in this in the first responder industry, when that that crash site is gonna be there for a long time. It's gonna get reconstructed, roads are gonna get shut down, and we're gonna find out what truly happened to these victims. And having a chaplain on scene, uh, especially if family members come, and also for the first responders on scene, uh was always a great idea. I've never seen it uh perceived as as anything less. So my hats are off to to the men and women out there that that do this. It's um it's not the easy. I mean, we're all in a in a career, I guess it's not the easy to do, but being being a chaplain, becoming a chaplain is just not uh it's not for everybody. And you got to truly be committed for those two, three o'clock in the morning call outs. And you gotta be able to go out there and comfort uh the staff of the agency and to comfort the families that may have just lost somebody, and it's uh it's a full circle. So hats off to you, brother, and I appreciate what you do.

Why Departments Underuse Chaplains

SPEAKER_09 30:17

Yeah, you bring up a good point, Banning, about making notifications and doing stuff like that. I've had to make notifications without a chaplain. I hate it. I don't I don't want nothing to do with it. I don't like it. I can do it, but not everybody can. Not every even those that are willing to do it, it doesn't mean you're gonna come across the way you're trying that you should come across. It's just it's a it is a finely tuned skill. Um, I do consider myself a people person, but that ain't a time to be a people person.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

That's uh it's a can I share a quick story?

SPEAKER_09 30:53

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Perfect. Um, we were having a uh critical incident uh debrief um after a officer-involved shooting a couple years ago, and uh that's one of the things that I do is I'm also uh I do I lead a lot of our critical incident debriefs. And as I was going there, all of a sudden we had a suicide. My uh two of my officers responded to it, and we uh we have a lady in our our front glass, and uh we call her the Supreme Commander, and when you see her face change, and she said, Chap, this is gruesome. And I said, Got you. So I called up my lieutenant, I said, somebody else has got to fill in. I'm going over, you know, to the scene. Uh when I self-deployed there, the self-deploy means uh, you know, I normally don't go unless I'm asked to go. In this case, I just knew better. So I went and uh three of my officers were there. Um and a uh 21-year-old uh kid um had uh shot himself in the head with a revolver, and uh, but he was uh high-level spectrum uh autistic, and he was playing with his new revolver that he purchased, showing his girlfriend um on the Zoom call when he did it. The mother happens to be a she was soon to be a um counselor, a licensed counselor, but not yet. The roommate found everything. It was uh quite gruesome, was the word that was given to me, and that exactly what it was. And I had two officers standing there, um, and just showing up, you could see that their posture changed. All of a sudden, their tone slightly changed. I went and talked to the family, and some of the things going on with the family, we we got things resolved. There was a sister that was about two and a half hours away. I made calls, I had a chaplain over there from a different department show up on scene to be with the sister when the family was able to get there to tell to uh provide that notification. This wasn't this way they weren't by themselves. In addition to all that, when we were done for the night, um I asked my my officers, I said, Y'all haven't eaten, and they're like, Nope. And I said, Let's go get some pizza. And they're like, Yep. They had been there at that uh at that scene for I think seven hours at that point, and um, so we went, got some pizza, but we sat around that table and just being present, and that was the key. Didn't have to say anything to them. They started having their own conversation about military deployments and different stuff, and you let them have that conversation. You just sit there and be present, allow them just to blow off the steam that they need to. All of a sudden, by the end, they're laughing, no longer looking taunt, looking as though that um they saw something they can't unsee, even though that's true. But more of a, okay, I can take one more day now. Because sometimes for law enforcement, as an outside perspective, it's not just day to day, sometimes it's hour to hour and even minute to minute. And so when you're just present for them, and that's and I'm not giving me an attaboy for, I'm just saying that that's what chaplains do. You show up on scene, you be there, you assess, you know, each person, you provide them the space that they need, and then when everyone's gone, you're still there for them. Yeah, and that's what you do.

SPEAKER_09 34:57

Yep. Um, badge 502. Now he's out in the New Jersey area. He's been an EMT uh and dispatcher, so he's all around the first responder stuff. And what has been your experience uh with chaplains?

Notifications, Presence, And Healing

SPEAKER_12 35:11

So we do not have uh for any of our departments a designated chaplain. However, we do have for both of our both of my departments uh a spiritual guidance uh directive where we can go to a faith of our choice and we have people who are ready to to speak with us and they're they're on call, they're ready to go. Uh, but we don't have anybody that specifically comes to us. Um, I I would be very hard pressed to believe that if we called that they wouldn't. Um, but we have not, uh at least I in my experience, we haven't had anybody come to us. Um I do know that there's only so much you can do without being without having the ability to reach out to somebody you can't pour from an empty cup, so it's demonstrably important to be able to have somebody to speak to. So I'm I'm a I'm a firm believer in uh a chaplain can only bring benefit to a department, regardless of what that type of department is.

SPEAKER_09 36:09

Yeah, I I hate to put it in the same context, but I mean the you guys will kind of understand where I'm going with this without trying to get specifically religious, but um the bearing the burdens of other people's tragedies. And that's what the chaplain's doing. And it's it's hard because as a cop, we see it too. We also have a way of we've got to bear some of the burdens of what we see, and that's not a woe is me. Look at all these cops that have to do you signed up for it, you knew what you were getting into. I understand that argument, but my point is some of the traumas that we see still doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel good, and it's hard. Not everybody is equipped the same way. I'm really good at compartmentalizing in a way that is healthy. I I don't I don't ignore it to the point where I just burying stuff. I don't drink my problems away, although I do like to partake occasionally. Um, but at the same time, not everybody's just because I can do that, I can't look at banning and go, why can't you do it, bro? I can fucking do it. Like, sorry, chaplain, forgive me.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Uh just so you know, I I was in special operations in the military for a number of years. There's nothing you can say I haven't said. All right.

SPEAKER_09 37:22

That's what I'm talking about. See, my chaplains are awesome. Right. He'd make us blush with the things you can say.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Uh do me a favor and throw up uh Jeremy Willingham's comment up there.

SPEAKER_09 37:35

I had it up there, but yeah, I'll throw it up again. Uh Jeremy said, uh, great topic. Chaplains are absolutely needed, military and LE. Chaplains are someone to talk to in the trenches when an officer may not want to talk to leadership, especially when dealing with trauma.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

And and you got to meet him, uh Chaplin Campbell, down in Florida. Uh he was with me. He works at my company. He's a retired full bird colonel out of the army and works on our federal side now and does a fantastic job on that. Just a great guy all around. And I know for a fact that he is probably more on one occasion got to use a chaplain in uh in his previous line of work.

SPEAKER_09 38:13

Yep. Um Constitution Country Girl News said to the chaplain, what do you do when there is an atheist in distress? Family member lost suddenly, etc. Do you ask about belief systems before you give them advice or comfort?

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Absolutely not. Here's what I do you love the person where they are. Matter of fact, I I generally don't even ask them about their belief. And I don't even ask them anything about their faith. If I show up and because someone had died in this manner, I may ask them, do you happen to have a pastor, priest, or someone that I can call for you that you know? And if they have a religious belief system, then they will go ahead and yeah, if you wouldn't mind, would you please call so-and-so? Or I've already called so-and-so. Great. Well, then I'm what can I do for you? Can I go get you some some water? Can I just sit next to you for a little bit? And sometimes, well, case in point, uh, I sat next to this uh young lady who had lost uh her son. Um was uh 11, if I remember correctly. I had gotten her some water. I probably sat there for 35 plus minutes, not saying a word. She wasn't saying a word. The uh medical examiner was doing what they needed to do, and um eventually she stood up. So I stood up. She looked at me, she asked me if I could hug her. I hugged her. She um kept crying. All of a sudden she stopped and she says, Thank you so much. I appreciate everything you said and everything you did. She walked away, and because they were getting ready to to take her son away. Um I never said a word.

SPEAKER_05 40:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Just being there. That's all she needed.

SPEAKER_09 40:11

When we um when we were going through our miscarriage, I I swear that that was that was the majority of our sessions was just sitting in silence. And it it I don't know, I don't understand it. I don't not gonna say why, but it's just it presence is is amazing. And I think that's the right, that's the right call as far as um not bringing up faith and all that stuff. It makes sense because it really doesn't it doesn't matter in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

That's right.

SPEAKER_09 40:45

You in the moment we're we're we're addressing whatever that they're going through that they need. And uh I have found more often than not what they need comes to light naturally. They like it just you don't have to ask a lot. They just whether it's a shoulder, a hug, an embrace, whatever it is, um, sometimes they just want to yell and scream and be angry, and you're the face of it. You just sit back and take it. Uh and that's coming from a street cop's perspective. I I like the chaplain said, the thing that I want you guys to really understand that I see with chaplains is long after we've cleared, and that's what that's kind of the point I was getting to is I've seen a lot of tragedies, but I get to clear. I get to clear rather quickly uh in the grand scheme of things in the bigger picture. Um, where the chaplains they're in it for the long haul. They're they'll call back, they come back, they don't leave. That's another thing. I'll get a ri I've had a chaplain say, I'll get a ride. Like, I'm gonna stay here. And I'm like, oh shit, I can't leave my chaplain here. So you're trying to figure out how this is gonna work. Um but another point that I wanted to bring up, chaplain, that you kind of touched on that maybe you didn't think about. I'm sure you have in all your experience, but banning and and and badge 502, you tell me part of me is going to feel responsible for the chaplain. I mean, as it should. And if I get into a hairy situation that I've a and let's I I won't lie, if chaplains have talked me into letting them go into some scary situations. Um but if if they something happens to them, man, that's gonna be a hard one to swallow. And and then they got to look at God later on to be like, I don't know, I let him go.

SPEAKER_07 42:38

I was gonna do it. He got all holy on me. I didn't know what to do.

Suicide, Stigma, And Reporting Gaps

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Well, I I will say this. Um, I I'm privileged because my officers have always kept my safety as priority. So when we're rolling up to a certain call where we know that the house, we know that person, and we know what's going on. First thing that which it doesn't matter who it is, but the officer that I'm riding with uh unendoubtedly will say, Chap, I need you to get out and get behind the vehicle when we show up. Okay, so what do I do? I get out and I get behind the vehicle when we show up. Now I will stay there behind the vehicle until I get told otherwise. Even though everything else is already getting taken care of, the dudes may have been uh put into cuffs and and they forgot about me. That's fine. You stay where you're told to be because that's where they know, mental mark, that's where they put you. There's times though that I had one officer, we had no backup uh that was available at that time, and they had active uh sensors going off inside the uh this one home. And so priority one, they're going in where he was going in, but he had nobody. And he's like, There's a vehicle here. I I don't, and I looked at him and I said, I'm gonna be right behind you. And he goes, You don't have a gun. I said, I know. I said, Don't tell anybody. And so I went in and I allowed him to go do his clearing that he was doing, but I made sure nobody was gonna walk up behind him. Now, was that a smart thing to do? Probably not. Was that allowed by policy for that department? Because I'm not mentioning that department, which one it was? So no, probably not, but but you know what? Um, would I do it again? 100%. And what's funny is that when backup was finally able to show up, because that it's a smaller department. When the backup finally showed up, the officer ran in, looks at me, and said, What are you running around doing your you know uh finger gun?

SPEAKER_09 45:02

Yeah, Charlie's Angel. He was doing that Charlie's Angel post, Charlie's Angel, and I'm like, You bet I am.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

He's out there having a pillow fight, right?

SPEAKER_12 45:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

Nice, but you're not gonna allow you're not gonna allow him to go in there by himself. He he you can't clear by yourself, and if you got active sensors going off, which end up being somebody did get in the house, but they ran out, but their dog all of a sudden got loose, and the dog was tripping all the sensors, so they thought somebody was really in there, yeah, and ends up not being anybody at all.

SPEAKER_09 45:40

I would have been like chaplain, start barking.

SPEAKER_10 45:43

Come on with your hands up, or I'm gonna let the dog loose.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Oh man, wait around here, right? But we we we discussed earlier about um you know some you know, death notifications, things like that. Now I want to segue this into my second question, if that's okay. All right, we'll allow you allow it. Thank you. Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_09 46:06

Yeah, we'll allow it today, Chaplin.

EMT Perspective On Debriefs And Support

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Thank you. So it ends up that um there is a uh public law, and I was just trying to, which I've already written about it, um you know, when I was asking about this earlier, and I don't have it right here in front of me, but there is a public law specific for law enforcement suicide. And that public law is where it mandates, well, I shouldn't say mandates, it allows for law enforcement agencies to identify and share when they've had a law enforcement suicide or attempted suicide in their department. And unfortunately, when When this was put into place when it was assigned, um, I think it was 2023. Um they they put a very specific word in there that the departments may they may say something, not required. In the year 2023, only seven departments or agencies across the entire United States, only seven reported. You only had 112 reported in 2024. Now we can find statistics from all kinds of different locations that have been trying to track it, but the problem is that our own government hasn't been promoting let's get the real numbers. Now, there is obviously a stigma for law enforcement officers that um they don't want to talk about suicide. They there's a stigma that they don't want to talk about that there's having a problem, uh a mental wellness issue. I get that, but I want to give you some quick numbers. Um, 2023, there were 720,652 full-time police officers. At that time, roughly 20%, which is 144,130, were military veterans. Of those veterans, ends up 31% were combat veterans. Today, that number is actually higher. We have more combat veterans as police officers. Uh, with that, veterans account for approximately 25% of all officers' suicides. And it ends up if you're over the age of 40 and you're Caucasian and you're a prior military combat veteran, you're at the second highest rate for put for the possibility of suicide. So you're already identified. That being said, why is it that more agencies and departments don't request or mandate that they that their congressman change the law from a may report to will report? And why is it that there's still the stigma within the agencies of trying to hide different uh suicide acts by cause by identifying them as an accidental firearm discharge, which when I was doing my thesis in law enforcement suicide uh for my masters, that is exactly what the FBI agent he gave me a case number to go look up, and that's exactly what happened. Gilman had his weapon for over seven years, had been on the department for 11 years, combat veteran, over 40. And he was cleaning his weapon and there was an accidental discharge. Interestingly, if you research a little bit further, which I did, he was separated from his wife, preparing to go through a divorce. He had two kids in college, and he just took out a second mortgage on the house because he was upside down in all of his credit cards. Now you tell me was he really suicidal or was he just having an accidental discharge day?

SPEAKER_08 50:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

And so if we don't identify and have true numbers even being reported, then we can't even begin to see how big the problem is. When you have a law enforcement officer that is committing suicide every 52 hours, uh yeah, 52 hours right now.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Well, and I'm gonna add to that, Chaplin Campbell, on and we we briefly spoke about this in Florida. The ODMP will still, and this is a national organization, nonprofit, um, that posts uh line of duty deaths across the country. Am I saying that right, Eric? I believe that's where it's uh you only have a couple organizations out there that are covering suicides in the first responder industry. Um I'm not gonna say their names right now. They've they've one of them's changed their names a couple times in the past five years. Um however, I believe that needs to be publicly available when it's found of that. People need to understand how high the suicide rate is in the first responder industry because it's a lot higher than what people think. Um, 22kill is a is a great nonprofit out there that focuses primarily on uh the veteran military veterans organizations, uh, but we we do need to have more uh for the first responders. And there's some that spin off, there's some that grow, there's some good ones that are out there. Um I've highlighted a few on the show uh within the past couple years, but it needs to be seen. The number is unset. The departments, and I and and I will publicly always say it, it's on the chief or the sheriff. You've got to have proper things in place to make sure our men and women that are out here uh doing this to to have an outlet. They've got to have something, whether that be a chaplain, whether that be an organization they can lean on, uh, but the suicide rates have just they have they not gotten worse since 2012, 2013? I mean, they've uh they've they've really significantly gone up.

SPEAKER_09 52:41

Yeah. Um so one of the questions that was brought up, um, chaplain, is who do chaplains talk to when they've seen these things?

SPEAKER_01 52:54

That's a great question. Um chaplains talk to chaplains, and I have no qualms saying I have my own counselor. I am a pastoral counselor as well. I talk to a counselor. I have a standing two o'clock in the afternoon, every Friday appointment, whether it's in person, a phone call, or even just a check-in, which could be a text message, like, hey, I'm doing okay. Or it's been a rough week and I need to have a cup of coffee with you. Let's go get a slice of pie somewhere. Um chaplains talk to chaplains. So only and here's the other thing about that it's not just any chaplain. Police chaplains, it is best that they talk to police chaplains because only another police chaplain will understand. A normal chaplain would not understand what we see.

SPEAKER_09 53:51

Okay. Um I want to direct a question over to Badge 502 because he has a unique perspective that us, me, and Banning won't understand. And maybe the chaplain will. Badge 502, as an EMT, I will say it's safe to say between Banning and I, we see traumas, but not nearly as often as you would. EMTs, it they see every trauma, every bad trauma, they see it. Uh, where police, you know, if if that's your call, that's your call. If if if it's Karen, you know, complaining about the neighbor's dumpster uh trash can that's too far on her side of the driveway. Well, that's my call for that that moment, uh, which is not bad, but for uh what you do, you guys go to every single bad scene that's out there. What are they doing for you guys as EMTs?

Resources: Boulder Crest And Peer Care

SPEAKER_12 54:44

So it's important to frame this in a in a in a star. We have there's there's multi-levels to the resources that we have, right? So, my myself, I'm the mental health resource officer for both of my departments, for both of the EMS departments that I ride for. My responsibility is to have the information handy uh to be able to disseminate to my department, as well as develop plans and operations in order to help combat things like stress fatigue and all these other types of situations that could invoke uh a poor mental health scenario for somebody. Um I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination, a licensed counselor. Um, but my job is to be able to help you find additional resources and to be an additional resource for you if you just need somebody to talk to. But on top of that, it's also the training I do have is to help identify uh different key factors in a person's behavior, um, noticing deviations from their normal acts and all these types of different uh behaviors that they have to be able to identify what to identify that they might be going through something that they're not talking about. And it's could just be as simple as, hey, you know, hey John, that was pretty crazy, huh? It's just that was a pretty uh pretty nugget call. You wanna you want to talk about it? Are you good? You all good? Yeah, yeah, I'm fine. You know, let's listen. If you want to chat, listen, we'll jump uh we'll jump into another way for a little while, we'll get away from everybody and and we'll just chat. And sometimes just that little spur, letting them know that somebody's there for them is is could be all they need, could be that they need more. I could help to uh help find them some sort of resource to assist them. But we we have multi-faceted levels, um levels of escalation, if you will, on how we can um work to aid somebody's mental health, especially going through traumatic situations. I can vividly remember my first call actually kind of messed with me a little bit. And it was before I was I wasn't even on the department. My first call was for, I think I've mentioned this to you, was for a uh a one-year-old uh child that was unresponsive and up breathing. And I watched two EMTs that were throwing marshmallows at each other four seconds ago turn into two very different and we flew to this scene. And you know, when when we got there, that was that was simply not the case. The the child was having seizure. So the child was unresponsive for a little while, but he was breathing, and it ended up not being as nearly as bad as it could have been. Um, but even that not being it could have been, that affected me. And I needed to talk to somebody to talk to both the people on my tour that night. I talked to my my captain about it, and he's you know, it's it's something that you have to can handle handle these types of situations, and if not, you need to know how to alleviate the stress for yourself or find the resources. Like I said, you can't pour to an empty cup, you need to make sure that you put your oxygen mask on first. Yep. So we different think of it as levels of escalation of of what can do for somebody, but whether it's talking to me, then maybe talking to the captain, then maybe talking to your centralized mental health coordinator, uh, then maybe even escalating further than that. You might have to take that party to the to the hospital, and they might not have to get real help. But fortunately, it's nothing's nothing like that's ever come to it.

SPEAKER_09 57:58

Yeah, some of the best advice I give my guys is like, I'm like, listen, find somebody you trust. You don't you don't have to talk to, you don't have to talk to the chaplain, you don't have to talk to you know the departments, you know, people they throw down your throat. You don't have to talk to any of those people. If if your best friend from college that lives across the country is the person that is, give me his phone number. Let me call him. I'll get him on the phone for you. You go chill, take your crap off. Let's get this, let's get all this weight off of you. The physical weight comes off, and then we can start to breathe and do things and think, you know. I give him a task to do. So they you know, Chaplin, you tell me if this is a strategy you use too. But I like to give them a task. Let I want to get their brain thinking about something. Hey, do me a favor, start taking all your gear off. And then they're not thinking about exactly what's good. They may be thinking about a little bit, but you gotta kind of split your decision making. So I'll tell them to do that. In the meantime, who's somebody you trust that you want to that you can just I don't care if you don't want to unburden yourself, but I just want you to tell somebody this call happened, and I don't want them to have to hear it just from me. So let's let that that's a normal route that I'll take. Um, no one's ever trained me to do that. I just kind of figured it out because I know it would help me, and that's kind of what I did.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

But um so one of the things I would chime in on that, you you said a key word which is absolutely perfect, trust. Yeah, and yes, you you send you ask them to talk to someone they trust. If they don't know, they don't if you don't have a as a chaplain, if I don't have a relationship with that person, I haven't built trust with them. It's simple as that. And if I haven't built trust, I am not the right guy for you to talk to. I mean, I can be, but I can help you get somebody that you do trust. Yeah, but when it comes to to an officer, if it if it was a an officer that was having an issue, um I for myself, I would not ask them to take their gear off. Because the last thing that's gonna happen, other than you know, if not on scene, not on scene, yeah, not on scene.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:03

I mean, yeah, yeah, no, I don't do it on scene, I do it when we go away.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

Yeah, I mean, there I have I've been to OIS's officer-involved shootings when they've had to give up their weapon and how that you can just see how it affects officers. Um and uh but all for the EMT side, so so badge 502, you know, one thing I would like to ask is um when you have someone that's brand new on the job, how about perfect scenario? It's she has been on the job all of 12 hours on her own. So she just got released, and her very first major call is a chicken, someone played chicken with a train, and the train won. And yes, he was he was still responsive somewhat, and she was trying to provide CPR to him because she was told to provide him CPR, even though it's not possible. So, with that person, that's that's one of those moments to me. My opinion, I would like to hear yours. My opinion is that's someone that you that the supervisor would need to immediately line up. You will talk to somebody, not a you might talk to somebody.

SPEAKER_12 1:01:45

So anything, at least as at least as far as I can tell you with with our department, anything that's let's call it substantial, something like say the train, right? Anything like that is gonna necessitate a mandatory debrief, right? So the call's gonna we're gonna go home, we're gonna get either changed if we need to because of the propensity of the scene, if we got messy or what have you. Um, and then we're immediately gonna go into our one of our classrooms, we're gonna sit down, we're gonna talk about everything that happened. We're gonna start at the very beginning from the minute we got in the truck to the minute we got off the truck, and we're gonna talk about it. And the debrief from for these different scenarios we've had, and we've had that. We've had train crashes, we've had six-car MVAs, we've had bikes that have been hit by buses, you know, and these are these are very dramatic scenes. You have people screaming and crying and getting out of the cars and trying to interfere because they think they can help, but they can help. And it's the the whole the whole scenario becomes an incredibly stressful situation rather than just the actual act of you trying to provide care for that person. So when we debrief, we talk about the totality of the incident. And if we determine at that point that maybe somebody needs to have a conversation with somebody, either not even necessarily higher than us, just that isn't us, you know, that oftentimes that just helps haven't just speaking to somebody from the outside, it it's huge. And then they get an outside perspective and can talk to that's completely non-biased, and that's it's it's wonderful to just be able to have somebody that can talk to you, that can listen to you. Sometimes you don't even need an answer, you just need to say what's in your mind, and that's massive, that's a massive help. Um, but yeah, we we start everything with a debrief, and then from there we can we can escalate if we need something too.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:36

Yeah, um, and and banning had sent me this this page that we've talked about before on here. Um, I want you guys to go check out uh bouldercrest.org. Um, this is a a great uh post-traumatic um group uh program that you guys can get into. Uh Banning, I'll let you talk a little bit on it real quick.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

Well, I it it's hard to put it in words. There's there's a couple videos on there that describe, and they do for military and first responders. Um there's a a six-minute and 55-second video. It's probably a little bit too long uh for us tonight. Uh, but I would I would encourage each and every one of you to go to their page and take a look at it. Um, even if you just have a first responder as a friend or a family member to send it to them. They do some uh amazing things, and I would I would love to uh to see people support them. They did they do uh once you go to the page and you see the videos and what they're doing, my words are irrelevant, you'll see exactly uh what they're all about.

Community Tragedy And Coping In Real Time

SPEAKER_09 1:04:34

Yeah. Um and then I want to share exactly what what um can happen uh and what again, guys, uh this is not a this is not a cop specific thing. This is firefighters, EMS, police, the chaplain, the families, the community, you guys that are out there. This is the type of things this just happened. This happened in Alan's community, and uh, I don't know if Alan wants to jump on to talk about it. Um, but I'm going to I'm gonna share a photo with you guys, and I want you to kind of understand what we're talking about tonight. So let me share this. This just happened. So Alan, uh, give us a little brief overview of what we're looking at here.

SPEAKER_11 1:05:22

So it's actually about an hour down the road from me, but um, this is a local community that lost a brother and sister tonight in a train crash. They're both in high school, you know. You can see the brother and sister. Brother and sister. And uh it was uh, you know, it came into uh the fire department as a major uh fire. So the the what's seen on TV and the news is a big black cloud of smoke. So things are not good. And so not only do we need to be thinking about this family and and those type of things, but we all the first responders that respond to this, you know, they have to go home to their loved ones at the end of the night. And there's people don't understand some of the things just talking about it, it's really hard right now. But you know, they have to relive all of this and they have to deal with it, but they can't deal with that until the moment's right, and they have to put on that face and keep doing the job and all of those types of things. So um, you know, let's keep the families in Clyde, Texas, uh close to our heart tonight. Um, and uh, but you know, Chaplin and everybody else on here, you know, these are some of the things that uh is it it's gut-wrenching and as bad as it is, you also have to departmentalize yourself and be able to get through the incident and keep working. Because you know, these smaller communities, you may know these people and you still have to deal with it. And so um, you know, I guess uh what are some of the ways that you guys have uh figured out to get through that situation, those type of things?

SPEAKER_09 1:07:07

I just I focus on task. What do I need to do next? What do I gotta do next? What do I gotta do next? You know, what hasn't been done yet? Checking the boxes, checking the boxes. I don't I don't think about what it is I'm doing, I think about what I gotta do. So I can deal with with me afterwards. I just try to the ADHD I have helped a lot. I promise you guys. Yeah, yeah. I I'm constantly like, all right, what I gotta do, what I gotta do, you know, don't get bogged down. Um I it's worked so far in 20 years of my career. Um, but Benning, you got anything?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:41

No, uh, and I just appreciate Chaplin Campbell freaking uh blessing us with his presence tonight. Um and it's unfortunate in in the job that we do, uh we we see this all way too often. We're we're exposed to it uh day in and day out, and there has got to be an outlet. And the chaplains, the true ones out there that uh that come to the rescue helps on the scene, helps after the fact. I've no I know so many with Chaplin Campbell being one, and I love the fact that we actually got to meet uh in person down in Florida for an amazing event. Um it's awesome. I want you to stay connected with us, and we would love to bring you on for a full show.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:19

Yep, yeah, we definitely want to get you on for a full one.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:22

I would appreciate that, and I would love doing it. Um, I would say this uh pray that uh God keeps each you protected, surrounded by all of his legions of angels, and may all of your days be safe. Y'all take care.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:36

Thanks for having us, Chaplain. Thank you for that. Amen, chaplain. Thank you. The Catholicism's coming out of me. Um, all right, to our mods, to our mods. That that was a good first one. Um, he hit us up with a two part, so he went a little longer, but I'm not gonna tell the chaplain he's gotta get it.

SPEAKER_12 1:08:53

He gave us the old left right.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:54

Yeah, he did. But yeah, to our mods, if you guys want to get the next one uh loaded up for us while we uh we talk and kind of debrief a little bit like that. That had a lot more um that had a lot more engagement and acceptance from our community than I expected. Not that I'm thinking guys are a bunch of heathens. I just uh that's not our typical flow. So um I I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure how that was gonna be received. I was like, well, screw it, let's go, let's see how it goes. And then uh it turns out to be one of you guys, one of the things you guys like. Uncle Fatty said, Namaste. Namaste. I like it. So uh no, chap chap did great, and uh glad he jumped on, and we will we'll get him for a full episode, and we'll do it how we've been doing our lives uh uh when we do our full podcast. I've switched doing podcasts pretty much to live every time. So normally what we'll do if you guys want to catch our live podcast, it's an interview, and then we open it up to some questions at the end. So you're gonna hear us talking, you're gonna be chiming in, saying a bunch of noise, and I'll be on that podcast one day. I know one day. I know, I can't believe we that's the thing is the people you know you can get at any time, like you never fucking get it done.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:17

We we gotta fly him down here and uh do it do a nice podcast with him.

SPEAKER_09 1:10:21

Yeah, do one in studio with him.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_12 1:10:24

Can I table? Because no.

SPEAKER_09 1:10:28

And you can you can wear a helmet too if you want. I mean, can I wear the Star Wars helmet? Star Wars helmet, yeah, yeah. Stormtrooper, whatever you want. I've never seen I've never seen a single Star Wars. Shut the front door. I take that back. No, you cannot come out here and be on the pile.

SPEAKER_12 1:10:44

Steph saw all of them during the pandemic. She said when she was home, she watched a single from from start to finish the whole series. The the Mandalorian watched all of it. I'm still completely in the oh god.

SPEAKER_09 1:10:55

Oh my god. Oh my goodness. We're gonna have to set pretty high here, guys. Okay, hold on. Before we get going, before we get going. Listen, Mr. Belfold, you are not going for four hours straight. I know this man. You let him get going, and you can't stop. He's the juggernaut when it comes to talking. That's correct.

SPEAKER_11 1:11:20

First, you don't have to write your shirt on.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:22

I'm I'm putting on my retro rifle tonight.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:26

I'm wearing it.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:26

I'd like to I'd like to thank Duck Dynasty for being on the show tonight.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:30

So uh I wish I had that Duck Dynasty money. Right.

Guest Two: Mr. Bill Fold On Accountability

SPEAKER_09 1:11:35

You ain't lying. For sure. So uh, Mr. Bilfold, before we get going, listen, ladies and gentlemen, I want you to know that this man has been instrumental to the success of two cops, one donut. One, because he pushes back, because he pushes back, and he doesn't he doesn't just accept answers that we put out there. He challenges us and he makes us think, and he makes us talk, and he makes us understand different perspectives. So thank you for that, sir. Um, two, he's been doing some things behind the scenes to help us get ideas and and to push things out there in a different way. Um, and I think that's where we differ from any other uh law enforcement-based um content is we truly listen to our community. I'm telling you, and I hope Mr. Bilfo backs us up uh on this, is that we're not we're not just placating you. If you give us ideas and stuff, because this man did not like us when we first started. I can promise you that he did not like us. I did not and he let us still around whether it does it. I know, and he let us know it's the ultimate mold troll movie pulled. Yeah, he's like, I got on here and he's gonna start dropping in bombs on us. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Stop it. Yeah, but uh no. Um, so it is this is the epitome. Mr. Billfold, the example that for me of what I wanted to accomplish with this podcast in the platform that we have, I wanted people that didn't like us to come to the table, challenge us, and at least meet us on common ground. And I he's done that and more. And so thank you very much, sir. But um my pleasure. Without further ado, sir, uh, go ahead and uh introduce yourself and tell us, ask us the question you wanted to ask us today.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:20

All right, well, everybody probably knows who I am, but if not Mr. Bill Fold or JJ or Bud, whatever you like, it's fine. Um, Eric is correct. I came uh to the live stream because of Matt Thornton, and uh I pushed back real hard on Eric, especially. Um and he took it like a man, and I'm all for people who take it. You know what I'm saying? I I eat a punch and give a punch. A lot of times uh people in the law enforcement community don't like to take the punch. Um something I heard a long time ago is if you're gonna argue with somebody and it's a good faith argument, um, that's their reality. And if your plan is to break it, be kind because breaking someone's reality hurts. Um, and that's what I try to do, whether it's in the comments or in the chat with you guys, and I really appreciate all the people in the community too, because y'all are one of the reasons why I stick around. Um but I encourage everybody else to be respectful and push back as well. I'm never gonna stop doing that. I I think there's a lot of room for a lot of room for improvement in the law enforcement culture. Um probably more so than some of the folks here would want to see. But like I said, my reality and their reality is different. Um, I take one thing that uh one of my one of my favorite guests y'all have besides that dreamy Von Klein is uh is is is Officer uh Hor uh George Lopez. Um he yeah, I I really I really enjoy him and I really respect the things that he's done. And uh, you know, I want everybody here to talk to somebody that's outside of their group. Um I it's really polarized. I'm I'm I'm pretty happy with myself because I'm well hated now by both sides of this argument. Yeah, yeah, because as soon as I defend a police officer that's in the right, or point out somebody that's a cop hater, point out where their logic is broken and busted like a can of biscuits, I'm a bootlicker. But at the same time, um, whenever I push back against something like QI or you know things like or case law, oh I'm a cop hater. So as long as I can piss off everybody equally, I feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. What's up, Rogue?

SPEAKER_09 1:16:10

I know he needs to jump on. Get in line, rogue, after bit, Mr. Bill. Let's get in.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:16

Get in line, rogue. I love hearing you, man. I was just on your channel uh yesterday going through some stuff, as a matter of fact. Um what I wanted to talk about tonight um is just fortuitous to timing. We just had um, you know, we talked about Barnes versus Felix. Yep. I'm not sure. Well, Barnes versus Felix just got quoted by a federal judge in Florida in a case uh where they had the I don't know if you guys are familiar with it, Southern draw law covered it well. And I mean hats off to uh James White. He's he's the man. If you're not subscribed, you definitely should after you subscribe to two cops, one donut, and badge 502. Um gotta give badge 502 the thumbs up. All the butt plug vids that he gives me, I just owe something. I owe a uh a shout out to him because what is it that he does?

SPEAKER_12 1:17:10

Yeah, yeah. I would I'd do it now. But I'm I'm sitting here in three frames per second.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:14

For some reason, he is lagging so bad tonight. I don't get it. Even Alan Mr. Billfold is is coming through perfectly clean, so it's it's a you problem.

Barnes v. Felix And Totality Of Circumstances

SPEAKER_06 1:17:23

If I turn my head in my own ear, you might want to check your USB ports for some of those butt plugs, man. That might be it, jamming jamming you out. But um recent, yeah. Uh I don't know if everybody's familiar with it, but there was a case uh from 2022 down in uh Osceola County, Florida, where there was uh 28 sheriff's deputies, a lieutenant, two sergeants, and 25 uh deputies doing exercises, training exercises. And uh they noticed a suspicious vehicle because it had the license plates covered. Um and two of the guys got out. Uh I think there was a 17-year-old and a 20-year-old in the car, and uh two 19-year-olds went into Target, and they uh the these deputies, having noticed them, followed them through the target. They shoplifted a pack of Pokemon cards and a pizza, and then they let these kids get back into their car, did a really horrible half-assed job of trying to block them in, and then when those kids tried to move, they dumped, I think, 32 rounds into them, uh, killed two of the kids. And uh that that case has been going on, and of course, those uh those officers requested qualified immunity. Um, and probably before Barnes Felix might have gotten it, but this uh this judge, and I put a link in the live chat with uh live stream chat on Discord for uh Marine Blood to check out um of this recent um order, and what this judge did under Barnes v. Felix, which is from what I I don't know of any this case, this just happened here in January. So this is probably the first uh federal uh court to actually quote Barnes v. Felix, but it brought about the totality of circumstances because these officers, even though they were not indicted for anything, um, had first asserted qualified immunity for uh this when and this judge basically, I think uh James White from Southern Jaw Law called it a bench slap. Um he basically said because he said he said no, you are not getting any qualified immunity for this because you either it's basically you have probable cause or you don't, right? So these officers, and even one of them said in a deposition, Well, you'd have to be stupid if you think a car covering their license plate isn't gonna run on you. Well, you guys let two people that you witnessed commit a crime, witness commit shoplifting, get back in their vehicle and then fired on them when you could have easily uh stopped them ahead of time. You know what I'm saying? So you either have it wasn't about officer safety and it wasn't about public safety. These guys were amped up out there doing a training exercise, which they probably needed to continue because they were it was a really poor.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:22

Uh, if you check out the Southern Draw Ball, he he has is that the video where they all swarmed the vehicle, a bunch of them? Like 20 of them?

SPEAKER_06 1:20:30

It was 28, 28 of them.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:34

Bro, it was like a clown car just getting filled, like you all of a sudden see kids coming out of everywhere.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:38

Yeah, and that's pretty much exactly what ended up uh the judge said, because of Barnes v. Felix, right? Instead of the moment of threat doctrine, which is what most of these cops, most cops who are gonna get involved in these useful force are gonna say, hey, it was he was pulling his car forward, you know. Well, for one, they didn't block him in, right? But the judge said, No, the totality of the circumstances has to be looked at in this case. And you guys allowed him, you allow these two people to get back into a vehicle when you could have just detained them before they got in the vehicle. You had 25 deputies, two sergeants, and a lieutenant on scene. So y'all could have easily handled this situation, but you waited till you let them get back in the vehicle, and then you created this circumstance where you could just prove yourself right, you know, and shoot these. Uh I don't I don't want to call them kids, but they're kids to me because they're younger than my kids are.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:33

I do it all the time.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:34

Yeah, I mean, 17, 19, 19, and 20. So they're kids. They stole Pokemon and pizza. So yeah, I mean, yeah, they were. I mean, it's it's I only wanted to bring it up because Barnes V. Felix, we we we had considerable discussion, I believe, in the past about okay, maybe this is going to be a good thing. You know, this is something that can can move the ball forward and get off of this moment of threat doctrine that was really a big issue as far as not only holding cops accountable, but making the community trust in policing, right? As well. But it didn't it didn't take very long. I think Barnes v. Felix was back in May, and here we are in January 2026. Yeah. And and it's actually been quoted.

SPEAKER_09 1:22:16

Yeah, so I think um, I think this is where this is where the argument goes back and forth. Um I think the moment of threat was created in a way because sometimes you do get put in a position where you're like, holy shit, this isn't how I intended this to start. And you do something that you wouldn't normally have done given more time. And then vice versa, sometimes you you get a call, and when you look at, oh, you just this just started because it was a a traffic ticket or uh no blinker on a turn, and then all of a sudden you're shooting somebody, and that moment of threat, you know, is like it had nothing to do with the the blinker. That was just I was just pulling them over to let them know, and all of a sudden they pull out a gun and I'm shooting them, or you know, that's extreme, but that's what I'm saying is no, I I agree with you on that, Eric.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:07

I think that you know, and one of the arguments we get to about QI in general, and we're not getting into that, I promised. I promised Marines Blood, I wouldn't do that, but uh yeah, but uh what ends what ends up happening is that we don't we weren't looking at the totality of circumstances, and the moment of threat doctrine, the reason why it had to be fixed in Barnes v. Felix, I think goes to speak to a lot of a lot of the doctrines like QI or open fields doctrine that the Supreme Court comes with fail because they're not really followed by the district courts under them. The language is often vague and hard for anybody, and as Von Kleem, the great force scientist, will tell you, you know, it's unfair to yeah, he he he's a sorcerer of force science. It it's it's unfair to give police officers standards that you can't articulate and then tell them that they were supposed to have a reasonable understanding of it. My argument with you about well, like moment of threat and QI in general is that I fully believe, and has been proven by all statistics that anybody can show, is that cops are well protected by the reasonableness standard of the Fourth Amendment. You know, I mean that's why you don't have to use a that's why you see qualified immunity brought up, like in this case we just mentioned, where they brought up where it was denied because of Barnes v. Felix, where they're saying, look, there's not reasonable. The monophreat doctrine had to be uh snapped and broken off because if you overcorrect in the on the side of law enforcement, you're just gonna set up for more abuse. Because the totality of circumstances in this case in uh Oceala County, Florida, was that you followed these guys, two deputies followed these teenagers through the store, followed them out to the parking lot. You could have engaged you had you you either have probable cause or you don't. Uh these cops wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

SPEAKER_09 1:25:03

Yeah, basically, what they were doing, and banning you can jump on this uh badge 502. I mean, maybe you've seen it too. I'm not gonna discount you on this, sir. But um, you know, a lot of times we want to see the highest offense we can get, and we want to, oh, maybe the car they're gonna go back to is stolen as well. And so that's that's kind of how we'll play it. You know, knowing this comes with experience, but knowing I know I'm gonna figure out what car they came in. Like that's not gonna be a problem. Versus a younger officer maybe, well, maybe they're going back to a stolen car. We'll let them get to that, and there'll be guns and dope inside, and they're trying to get this big, huge thing that it just it's not. Uh, and uh, so I understand in the mind of a cop why maybe they do that. I just don't agree with it. I am of the opinion just get it. If you got it, grab it. Let's get that over with. Um, and maybe you can find out some more stuff later.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:55

Well, but maybe you can before I want to I want to have Bannon, I want Bannon to say his thing, but in this and this real quick on that point, that was where the quick with you. Yes, there is. Uh, the judge, the reason he jumped on this is because they had 25 officers on scene, and they already knew which car. Not only did they see the car when it first pulled in with its tag covered, but they watched it move to another position in the parking lot. Yeah, so you had you had plenty of time for those officers to do that. So the given that benefit of the doubt that you're that you're saying, I I can respect that even if I disagree somewhat, like you disagree with the theory of it. But in this case, it was so egregious. They had 28 officers, lieutenant, two sergeants, and 25 deputies. They could have easily hemmed in the kids that were in the car and the ones coming out. They didn't why would you let somebody that's committing a crime that you believe is gonna flee, like that deputy said? Why would you let them get back in a car that could have a weapon in it? I mean, it's just you cannot you cannot you cannot bang the officer safety drum and do things that are not safe for the community or officers.

Training Failures And Officer-Created Exigency

SPEAKER_09 1:26:54

Yeah, and that's our brother. Yeah, and sorry, Ben, I'm gonna step on you real quick because I I want to make this point too. If you're a cop and you're listening to that, you're like, oh fuck that, fuck, no, no, but they did fuck you. Like, you're the problem. Like you had 28 fucking cops there. You're the problem. You had 28 cops. If you're backing the blue just to blow the blue, like, no, I'm sorry. I'm not, I'm not for that. 28 cops, you knew who it was, you knew the vehicles. While they're split the group in half. Real quick, badge. I know you got a bigger brain than me and Benny. What's what's 28 divided by two? 28 divided by two. Okay, yeah. So you got 14 cops. Send 14 cops to the the kids stealing and put 14 cops to the guys that are out in the car waiting. Uh, because they're not gonna leave their shut up, Benny. Uh I can't math. That's why I became cop. Uh I want to see your reports. Yeah, exactly. Thank you for uh because report cards that you autocorrects, my friend, okay. Um any anyway, uh, but my point being is this is where I feel that Barnes v. Felix really dropped the ball, is we should have done the moment of threat um argument. Or not moment of threat, the um officer created exigency. Oh, thank you. That's what I was going for. Officer created exigency. We should have addressed it. We ignored it. We just said we're not gonna talk about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:21

They they couldn't do it. In fairness, I'm always fair to you, cops. I'll be fair to the Supreme Court, which I hate to do because the Supreme Court is the bane of my existence with the things that they do. It normally takes 75 years for them to unscrew something that they've screwed, but it wasn't brought up as factually at the lower court stage for them to be able to do it. So they're basically saying somebody else needs another case, is gonna have to come up that where it's been pled this way so that we can do it. So, as much as I don't want to give them credit, that's the reason why they refuse to speak on that. Not because they didn't think it was a problem, but it has to be framed just right for the Supreme Court to be able to actually do anything about it.

SPEAKER_09 1:29:03

Yeah, agreed. I I I I I think moment of exigency is something that police need to deal with. We've already got a, at least in in just regular old municipal cop world, we've got a pretty good standard when it comes to shooting and moving vehicles and getting in front of them and all that stuff, um, which obviously ICE does not, but uh that's neither here nor there. We're not gonna go into that. Benny, the floor is yours, sir.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:26

I'm gonna keep this short. When you have a uh a crime in your presence review, you stop it now. Uh yeah. You're you're you stop it now. You're you're gonna you're gonna win some, you're gonna lose some, but there's no reason to extend that out to a parking lot to where there may be uh more people. We want to stop the crime now, period. You stop it and you get what you get. We are not a statistically driven panel. You get what you get right then and there. And if you stop something great, if not great, but your crime that you have in your presence around is what you have to identify and stop. Anything else, I'm speaking on many, many years of experience, can lead to something else. It can lead to guns, it can lead that's what we prevent. That's what we took an oath to prevent. You've got to stop it right then and there if you get something great. If you got enough to write paper to get into a vehicle, write paper to get into a vehicle. But if you don't, it's it's on to the next. And I don't know why the hell uh we've got so many cops. I understand they're in a training thing, uh, but I was really big on not uh wagoning the officers around people. Uh you take what it takes to get the job done and then you go on to the next, and I'll I'll stop there.

SPEAKER_09 1:30:35

Oh, kitty cat in the background there. Um yeah, I in this particular call, I do remember seeing the video and everybody's like, How the fuck does that happen? How do you allow this part? But the more I find out about it, like Mr. Bill Fold said, like they had him on view. They knew the car that they were gonna go to. Like you had too many factors that should have never been allowed to happen. You basically created Your own exigency, in my opinion. And that's not satisfactory. I'm not I'm not good with that. I don't like how it turned out. And don't get me wrong, the bad guys have their own sins to atone to on that, but does that mean it needs to cost you your life? Not necessarily, but at the same time, you shouldn't be driving your car away with surrounded by 28 cops. So I don't want people to come across and say that we're not being fair. It's just I can only control my bubble. My bubble's cops. So I can I can talk at cops. We already the bad guys already have their own thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:33

I think one thing I would like for everybody to be fair with. I'm sorry, 502, you're lagging so hard I can't tell if your mouth is moving or not.

SPEAKER_12 1:31:40

Yeah, no, it's bad. This I'm looking at three, four frames per second. Like it's easy. If you look at the candle in the background, you can it almost doesn't no man.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:51

You're on that, you must have borrowed Banning's AOL disk.

SPEAKER_12 1:31:54

Seriously, I'm on that I'm on that 28. Right, 28.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:59

But what uh one thing I'd like to say before the time is up, though, speaking to the people listening or or uh or watching, is um to we need to be more fair toward the criminals. And I I know that sounds crazy, but it's like this, you know. Um, I posted a Ted Lasso quote in in the Discord the other day.

SPEAKER_09 1:32:23

My top five favorite shows.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:24

Yeah, and it's like I hope all of us or none of us are judged by the weakest and worst of our moments, but what we do with any second chance that we're given, you know, to paraphrase that. Um I think that what I've seen uh with the recent shootings and everything, not to get into it, but what I've seen is a lot of people are absolutely they they would support a cop shooting you if you jaywalked, if you got lippy with the officer because he asked for your ID or any for whatever happened. I think that there's a there's not enough grace going around. We have a we either have a system that is of law and order or we don't. And I think that we we need to be holding police to a higher standard and a higher account. Um, I just watched some I was watching some von Kleen today, don't tell him, but uh I was watching some of his uh stuff today, and you know, he made a good point about what poor science talks about. They don't like corrupt or unjust police accountability, but they want honest police accountability. And I think we need to stop giving so much leverage to police to where you know if if somebody's tail light was out and they decided to run from you, don't chase them down and and and shoot them through the window. You know, get their get y'all have enough, you guys and Eric, you're the real-time crime center man of the hour watching girls take a shower. Uh you know, no, but you you but you but you know you know damn well that with the state of technology and the way that it is today, you guys can track anything anywhere. I mean, it's really damn unless you're a highly trained special operative, it's really hard to go 10 blocks in any major metropolitan area without somebody knowing everywhere that you are. So I I so I I think that what we have to start doing is holding these officers more accountable. If you're somebody out there who's not like me and and and doesn't push back on police, at least come to the middle of this gap a little bit by demanding some higher standards and higher accountability for the totality of circumstances. Okay, this guy, these kids stole pizza. You know, these kids stole Pokemon cards. Like I often say, they should be they should have been arrested for this, they should have had a chance to have the justice system work for them, not put in a position where they were allowed to get back. All the and see, before that's why I wanted to bring up Barnes B. Felix, before that moment of threat was taken away, courts really were not allowed to consider the totality of circumstances in this case. Once that car started, even though if you look, if you watch the Southern Draw video, you'll see that they did the most piss poor job of I blocked people in a trap in a parking lot better than these cops did. So you gave them enough room to pull around through the they moved a couple feet and then you bust they busted down on, I think it was 32 shots. So I really think that we need to um be more fair to the criminals. Let's see the criminal, you know. The old if you watch the westerns, which I love westerns, nobody cheats the hangman in my town, you know. Even though I might want to shoot you dead because you're a rat bastard, it's not my job. It's the hangman's job, and the hangman's got to eat too. Yeah, you know, let's get these people to court. You know, let's not be so quick to justify any police use of force with play stupid games, win stupid prizes, FAFO, which I'm seeing all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:54

I have to avoid so overused. I know. Yeah, it's the worst. Did you see that Von Kleem is commenting right now? Just to let you know, Mr. Booffer.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:02

No, no, I didn't. Is is is my is my man over there.

SPEAKER_09 1:36:06

There he is.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:07

Where's Von at? I don't see him in the YouTube. Oh, there he is.

SPEAKER_09 1:36:11

Yeah, there's Von.

Stop The Crime Now Versus Let It Escalate

SPEAKER_06 1:36:13

There's Von Klein. No, I watched I watched Von Kleam totally uh pimp slap the prosecutor in that shirtcase. I watched that today just for fun because I try I disagree with Von on several things, but I think it's because we're just culturally standing apart, but I respect the shit out of him because you know he he's he's not rude, he's not disrespectful, and that's the kind of person I can mess with. If I had the only I don't really have any friends because I'm how I am, but um I can deal with people who have a good faith disagreement with me. Uh, one thing that I'm absolutely sure of about Von and what he does is that he cares about fairness. I'm pretty sure that I could probably convince all you guys against QI if we sat down in a room over maybe a a beer or a cup of coffee and really laid it out without a way that felt being put on the spot. That'd be it, and I'm not afraid to have that fight. Just like I feel like I'll get out there and I'd I'd roll with Eric. Eric would probably whoop my ass in a roll, but I'd give him I'd give him the best business I could give him with my old bones, you know, and that's the way I feel about you know Von. I appreciate Von uh speaking out for me on that regard. But Von is what he does is really important. I I think that we have to have you know, we have to have realistic expectations, human expectations. I I saw that guy giving him hell about using the word superhuman. I thought that guy was such a nerd for for trying to hang Von up, but Von could not be hung up because he believes in what he says, and he's not saying it from a point of aggrandizing himself. He he honestly, I believe, genuinely believes in that stuff, and that's the reason I get on here and stay on it like I do. I honestly believe that I'm right, but I'm not going to hate you or call you names or do anything like that because we disagree, especially if I feel that you're a good person, you know, and that you and you entered into it meaning well. And that's the reason I support the channel. I think that's the reason why a lot of the folks in the chat, and I'm sorry if y'all are saying something to me um and I'm not reading it. I've been in the restream, so not looking at it, but I really, I really appreciate that this community gives us the chance to uh come on, Tim. Beer. I had to put it up there. Well, my my my grandma said the only thing you can do with beer is pour it back in the other end of a horse. But I but I am willing to have one or two with with certain people. Um, but I I believe that we all have different backgrounds and everything, and I know there may be some atheists or agnostic. I don't speak about what my beliefs may or may not be, but I but I do believe in God, and I do believe that we're all here for a reason, and that we can come together in the in the face of all these things that we disagree about, that's one of the highest ways that you can honor God. And I I just I I appreciate the growth that the channel's given me because I was in a very low point just because I see the same things that maybe you guys don't see, and a lot of the guys in the in our chat right now, Wade, Freeman, Constitutional Country Girl, Shotguns and Tats, Tim, all of us, we see so much that it bogs down on us because we don't have the cultural backing that you guys do as in the blue, because you guys could screw the pooch loyally, and you'll have a hundred thousand people out there backing whatever you did because you wear a badge. We're kind of on the outside, but this community made me feel like there are people listening. There's a there is a reason to not only stay up to date on this stuff, but to debate it. Find out whether I like to find out whether my arguments make a lick of sense or not. And the best way to do something like that is to like when I got on with Von, that dreamy man Von, um, you know, because I disagree with him, but he made some good points and he made me look at things in a way that I had not before. I had not looked into use of force and the you know expectations before. I've never I don't care enough about cop stuff to care. Like I watched Banning's um interview he just did uh on police recruiting today, and I don't really give a shit about police recruiting, so it was kind of hard to watch, but I watched it because it was you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_05 1:40:28

I I don't bitch, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:30

Well, it's just because I don't because I don't did I don't give two squirts of panther piss about retention for police, you know, and all that and stuff like that. But I watched it because it was banning, but I learned things that I'm not gonna be otherwise exposed to. And I hope if anybody here has anything that they can take from this community, join us on Discord because it's always hopping with somebody sharing something, and um participate in the live streams. You too could find yourself in here partying with these guys. Uh oh, Craig ape some Craig, awesome! Good job, Craig.

SPEAKER_09 1:41:01

First one tonight, baby.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:03

Thank you for you, Craig.

SPEAKER_09 1:41:05

Hey guys, seriously, if you like what we're doing, it like this is to me that tonight is the night for me that has been worth the first time for me asking for your hard-earned money. This is the first time I've ever officially I'm like, you know what? Like, this is the first time I feel like we deserve something because we are opening the doors in a different way that nobody's done before.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:29

Yeah, and I and I really want to uh I want to encourage all the all of our folks in the Discord to feel free to communicate with me more. Uh Harrison and I talk in Discord all the time. We're we're like little bosom buddies over there.

SPEAKER_09 1:41:43

He's but uh he couldn't make it.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:45

Yeah, I I have to I have to harass him about that. Tell him to take his vitamins and say his prayers like a good Hulkomaniac.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:51

But he said oh maybe good, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:54

But but please engage because I know not everybody's gonna get on here. Uh Eric and I talked, I have no problem running my suck. That's just something I've never had a problem doing. And talk to me, bring your stuff up to me. If you have something that you wanna, oh man, I'll drink my black my Dr. Pepper.

SPEAKER_09 1:42:14

Yeah, Mr. Uh, Mr. Bill uh Billful the Marine Bloods didn't get another one.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:19

Shame on him. But I really if y'all want to if y'all want to bring something up to Eric or the guy, something that you feel strongly about, and you don't feel like getting on here, bring it up to me in Discord, you know.

SPEAKER_09 1:42:30

And I'll promise you guys, I'm open.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:33

I'll talk, I'll talk if you guys I'll talk for all you guys who can't, because you know not everybody's built for the same thing. Some people are the tires, some people are the steering wheel. You know what I mean? It's there there's no shame in not being articulate, there's no shame in in being shy, but the conversations still need to happen. So I'll be the spirit animal for all you uh auditors and uh accountability people. If y'all want somebody to bang heads with uh these dusty, crusty jokers, I'll do that for you. I have no problem getting on here anytime Eric or Banning want me to.

SPEAKER_09 1:43:11

Yep. Shout out to Von Cleam, he became a member, baby.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:14

Hot damn.

SPEAKER_09 1:43:17

He's dropping that Red Bull money.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:20

He gives him brother. Yeah, I wasn't trying to, I wasn't trying to blow too much smoke up Von's butt, but I really do appreciate him because it's like I haven't been, I haven't had to be in a physical altercation with somebody in a long time. So sparring with Von is about as close as I've I've gotten to giving and taking. Yeah, it was and it was pretty good. And like I said, I think we all need to respect each other. You know, I I've there's been people get on get on the stream before and they attack Von and I shut that shit down immediately. Like, no, you're not gonna besmirch his integrity. I don't give a shit if he's wrong because he is, but you're not gonna like you're not gonna just talk shit about him. I don't let people talk shit about any of you guys either. I think I'm what did that one guy call me, Eric? The attack dog?

SPEAKER_09 1:44:04

I was here attacking our attack dog, yeah. Yeah, two cops when don't let their attack dog off.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:10

I'm not an attack dog, but I bite, you know what I'm talking about. I don't even I don't bark at people too much, you know. I don't I don't sell wolf tickets to anyone, but I think that you know what we've done here is fabulous. I love Marines Blood and Tim for what they do behind the scenes as well. Um, you don't see this anyway. Last time I talked to Izzo on the phone and called his show, he said he said, Fuck you, I don't need intelligent people calling my line, and then ended the call. So I think Freeman, I think Freeman and Harrison were watching when last time I talked about.

SPEAKER_09 1:44:42

That's buddy. Yeah, Izzo. Izzo, he's the yeah, he he wants the crazies.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:46

Yeah, yeah, it was it was fun. He Steve Ladner's his favorite person. That's the only time I get to talk to Steve Ladner. He doesn't come back here much, but I talked to Steve over on those stream.

Auditors, Polarization, And Honest Pushback

SPEAKER_09 1:44:55

I had to I had to ban him. He's the I've only I've only personally banned, I think, two people. Yeah, I think he was one of them. Um and then number three. I I want to say uh to Wade Lucero, he said, I talked to my friend Dev Denver Metro Audits, and he said you reached out to him to try to stick up uh to stick up for you.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:15

Um yeah, that that was me.

SPEAKER_09 1:45:17

I yeah, I tried to get the dude to come on here and then he because I think he went after me. Like he he said he liked Matt Thornton, but he didn't like what I was doing over there.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:27

Yeah, I that was that was me. I reached out, hey Wade, that was me. I reached out to DMA and uh and and had that conversation with him, and he said he'd be willing to, you know, he wanted to hear an outline of what would what would go on. Um, so I think I think a lot of what his problem was with that, the way he explained it to me, was that he was afraid it would be a gotcha moment. You know, he's got a lot of stuff with lawsuits going on right now. Yeah with with the the you have the frauditor community now who hates all auditors and they just they act like they're the worst people ever. Well, that's that's what I didn't see.

SPEAKER_09 1:45:59

So we've got a long history of being one of the few cop channels that back auditors. We we've never I I don't think I've ever once went at an auditor. I think I've always backed them up.

SPEAKER_11 1:46:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:46:11

I there's some that I don't like their tactics, but it not liking something has nothing to do with if it's you know constitutional right.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:19

Yeah, I'd still like to I still like to see that happen. I'd still like to see him on. So um, you know, and that those door that door of conversation is definitely is definitely open, but you know, I don't want him to ever feel like somebody's gonna try to bring him on here just to ambush him because that's not what how I get down. And I would if y'all did that, I would, I'd call you out for it on your own stream. I wouldn't have a problem doing that. I know you I know you wouldn't do it, but um, yeah, I I think that a lot a lot of the people in the in the auditing community uh appreciate you from what I've noticed. I mean, I don't I don't I don't I don't speak for all of them because I'm definitely not an auditor. I've done one audit, you can see it, and it wasn't even audit, it was me uh flirting with the postmaster because she was a very nice looking lady. Y'all can see y'all can see that y'all can see that on my uh on my channel. But um, I don't consider myself an auditor, but I do love what auditors do, and I like uh banning knows this, and this is why I love banning so much. We swore an oath to the constitution, and it meant something. Becoming a Marine meant something. It was the it was the proudest thing that I'd ever done. And even though I have a lot of problems with the way I found out the fleet was and the way the higher-ups do, I'll never forget what it means to believe in the guy next to you and you know, and take the constitution seriously. And that means I have to stand up for the people I do not agree with. As long as what you're doing is legal, I didn't sign that oath so that the the squadron I was at could order$492 wrenches. You know, I didn't I didn't sign it for any of those bad reasons. I I signed it to one to piss off my father because he was an army ranger and so was his dad. So I they didn't want uh a Marine in the family. But other than that, I want to stick up for the people who I don't agree with. We have to, we're all here together, and we're far more alike than we are different. That is one thing I've learned, and I want everybody to feel comfortable here.

SPEAKER_09 1:48:21

Most of the time I tell people if we had a beer and talked about this, we would not be the way we talk online. Guarantee.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:27

And Eric, let me let me give Badge 502 just two seconds. He's got a cut for for family stuff, man.

SPEAKER_09 1:48:32

Well, I I know you guys are chatting in the private chat. I can't won't let me open it for some reason, so I can't.

SPEAKER_12 1:48:37

Well, we we have it situated like that because we're talking about no worries.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:44

Badge 502 people uh find you.

SPEAKER_12 1:48:48

Oh, people can find me at uh badge502.com or badge 502 across all my platforms. You can also find me in slow motion on any of my live streams, apparently. I'll be over here with my Android style showing one pixel every 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_09 1:49:07

I know. I'm sorry, you guys, tonight. I don't know what it is. His connection just is not coming through. Um, please, on behalf of two cops one donut, if you guys are not following badge five 502, please find me.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:17

502, come up with a shirt that says I blame the butt plug and have your connection broken. I bet you we could sell a thousand of those shirts.

SPEAKER_09 1:49:25

There you go. Limited edition.

SPEAKER_12 1:49:27

I'll send it to the merch store immediately. All right, brother.

SPEAKER_09 1:49:31

We appreciate you. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_12 1:49:33

Guys I love you, be kind. Thank you. Love you boys. Yes, sir. Take it easy. Love you, sir.

SPEAKER_09 1:49:38

Um, so to our mods uh for our mods on there, if we got anybody else in the uh the mix, please get them ready. Uh Mr. Billfold, sir. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much uh for your stuff and your service, sir. I appreciate you. And uh yeah, if anybody has anything to say to Mr. Billfold, put it in the chat. I'm sure he'll still be on here.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:59

Yeah, and uh everybody come to the Discord if you want to. I posted links in the live stream chat, and I'll also share it in general or news. Take a look at this uh this this federal decision uh by this judge uh on Barnes D. Felix in this case. Uh, we we cannot expect the police to be more informed than we you know than we are, because we're the ones who are gonna suffer if they don't. So don't be lazy, get off your ass and learn something, and you can get back to doom scrolling cat stuff. Believe me, I want to watch cats and butt plug videos just like everybody else on 502's channel, you know. But we have to take the time to learn this stuff, okay?

SPEAKER_00 1:50:40

Love you, brother. Thank you. Love you, Mr. Bill Bold. Thank you.

SPEAKER_09 1:50:46

Love it. He's trying to figure out how to log off.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:48

Alan, show me your nipple.

SPEAKER_09 1:50:53

All right, I got you, Mr. Billfold. Oh shit. We're funny. Um okay. I I know we I think we had one person in line. I know I told our mods that I want to get Rogue Nation. If Rogue Nation's listening, yes, sir. If you want to jump on tonight, I I before we get to any of the videos, I this is about the community. Uh, and I want the community to jump on and and talk what they gotta talk. And I think we've been doing a good job so far. I I I'm not gonna lie, I I knew Mr. Billfold would always be colorful and fun. So I have no problem with him jumping on, but uh the chaplain thing surprised me. Uh not me personally, because I I'm down. I like talking to chaplains, I think they're fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:34

It's just I've been connected to him for for for God years now. And then neither one of us knew that we were both going to be down in the let's just call it the West Palm Beach area, uh going to an event, and uh to to have, God, uh he probably knows better than I do. It was probably an hour and a half uninterrupted. He and I got to talk. And it was needed for me, and I think it was needed for him too. Um, but we've had a lot of offline conversations up until that point, and both of us just to run into each other down there was was amazing. And absolutely, let's bring him on for a whole friggin' show.

SPEAKER_09 1:52:12

Yeah, I agreed. I want to get him on for a full one. Um Rogue Rogue Nation audits. I want to get for a full one. Uh who'd we get? Uh we got oh, Rogue Nation's on. Hell yeah. Bring him in. I thought I had it on there. There we go. What's up, brother?

SPEAKER_13 1:52:28

Hey guys, can you hear me?

SPEAKER_09 1:52:30

Yes, we can, sir. How are you doing tonight?

SPEAKER_13 1:52:33

Perfect, perfect. Sorry, it's a little dark. I'm outside to smoke. I don't smoke in the house.

SPEAKER_09 1:52:38

So no worries. Um, first and foremost, love what our auditors are doing out there. Uh, I will say, as a cop who's a constitutionalist, fully support doesn't matter if you do it a way I like or a way I don't like, fully support the way people go out and do audits on. I love the checks and balances. I think one, um, we should always be testing our police officers to make sure they're doing their job up holding their oath. And uh two, it's you know, I swore enough two times. Banning did two. Uh Alan has uh you weren't military, right, Alan? No. Okay, so Alan has once, and we're trying, we are trying to be the channel that uh, you know, kind of defends from the other side. I don't like calling them sides, but if we're gonna be realistic, there is there is two sides, and uh I I'm trying to bridge that gap and and make it all one. I'm just trying to make it American, if I'm gonna be honest. That's what I want to do, and I really like what you guys do.

Guest Three: Rogue Nation On 1A Audits

SPEAKER_13 1:53:36

Yeah, well, I just you know, I want to say that just opening up with an open mind to a conversation that we might not know everything, right? That's the starting point for understanding and change. We don't get changed by going in the echo chambers and having people tell us our shitty ideals are good, right? Just because they voted for the same president or go to the same church or or you know on the same bowling team. So I think what you guys are doing is important. That's why I spend my time, which is important, you know, important to me, uh, supporting you guys because I I think it's important. So um yeah, that's what I think. I appreciate you guys even having a conversation where it doesn't begin with, you know, these guys are antagonists and they're just doing it, you know. And granted, some of them are. I mean, let's be real, just like, you know, not all Catholic uh, you know, priests are are good people, you know. Right. You know, there's good and bad in everything that we do. And to generalize, um, you know, it's just a terrible way to go through life and in any aspect, right? So now granted, I know that a lot of people's um misconceptions about what auditors do is due to the fact that you know the government never taught us exactly what our freedoms were and you know how to interact with them, right? Because it would be stupid for the government to teach us how to watch them, right? Because they don't want to be watched.

SPEAKER_09 1:55:20

They want you to have the illusion of that freedom, they don't want you to be educated on it.

SPEAKER_13 1:55:25

That's right. They want you to be like, you know what, the government is gonna watch over the government, and and for a lot of people that works, right? Because we go to public school and it's beaten in our head that this is a government for us, by us, you know, just like Foo Boo. And um, you know, we we get this feeling of uh, you know, you would say nationalism or or whatever else, this pride that you know that these guys are in there and they're working for us when that's never ever been the case. It's it's never been the case. And and for people that don't accept that story and actually dig a little deeper, it it doesn't take much, right? You don't you don't need to dig a 20-foot hole to find the truth because these guys, you know, spill it out in their books and you know in their um in their essays and and and stuff that they do if you know where to look. Um and so you know, with with them not understanding what the right to free press is, and and I'll give you a breakdown real quick, but in 1774, the Continental Congress wrote a letter to the inhabitants of Quebec, and they were were telling the inhabitants about all these great rights that our new country was going to have and what they were for and about, and they specifically said that the right to free press was the right to shame our public officials into just modes of behavior, right? Because back then and even to this day, not a lot motivates a person except for damage to the reputation, right? Which is the public shaming. Um and and and when that occurs, then then people will snap too and and pay attention and and you know make amends, I guess you could say, like we all see it in the TV when when somebody gets called out on the news and stuff, next thing you know they're printing a retraction, or you know, I'm sorry, that was taken out of context. But if they're never called out for it, usually do they ever you know call up on their own and say, gee, you know, I was wrong, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_09 1:57:35

So yeah, um, sorry, I'm responding to some people while they're chatting. Um what I want to get from you, Rogue, because you're OG. Like, you know, I talked, I've learned so much from our community about auditors and the ones to to ri that that they really wanted me to get on here. You're one of them. Uh that they really I want to I would love to have you on for an actual full podcast where we we do a live, we talk about you, all your stuff you got going on, why you do what you do, um, where police are screwing up, where they're doing okay in your book, and where do we start fixing things? That that's what I would love to do. Um, and then afterwards, our live chat can ask you questions and and and do that. And we can link all your people up to what we're doing as well. Um, so that's what I would like to do ultimately with you. And I know we've flirted with it in the chat several times because every time you jump on, I'm like, oh fuck, yeah, he's on here. So um, but for tonight, you know, since we're just we're we're we're having people jump on, and I I know this should be you wanting to bring up a topic, so I'm gonna let you bring up a topic or or a question, whatever it is you want to do. But I specifically have one for you that I would like to know, sir. Is in all your auditing and and stuff that you've seen, in your honest opinion, are cops improving? Is it seem the same? Are they getting worse? How do you feel that are where are we tilting on that scale?

Are Cops Improving And Why Training Lags

SPEAKER_13 1:59:06

Um here's the thing the the cops that are older are getting it. But the the problem remains, and it's not just a cops, but the public officials as well when I go out to do audits, and I I tell people this on my channel, and I tell other auditors this is that we're not gonna be for a lack of content for the rest of our lives, right? Because every day the government hires more idiots, just the way it is, right? And every day the government, some way or another, be it through code enforcement or I mean there's a hundred different ways the government can screw a citizen over. And so every day I get new subscribers to my channels, they want to come and they want to see how they need to interact with their officials when they're approached, they want to know what the laws are. You know, a lot of times people want to learn the law after they've already have broken it, or they, you know, they've come to interact with it some way, whether it be with landlord tenant law or something like that. And I tell people, you know, there's three things that every adult uses every day of their life. It doesn't matter if you're in America, China, Russia, North Korea, it doesn't matter. You use your mind, you use your money, and you use um the law, right? Those three things every adult on the planet uses every day without pause, right? And so, in order to move through life, you better have more than just a passing understanding of those three topics, right? And and and law being one of them. Um it's never it's never been a detriment for me to learn the law, right? Now, there is instances where people learn something and they think they know more than they should, and that gets them into trouble. But if you remain cautious and you um you know do the research that's diligent, and you know, a good percentage of the time you're gonna stay on the right side, right? Because I don't know if everybody knows this, but as a profession, lawyers we put out more lawyers per year than any other profession, right? And so just that statistic alone tells you that these guys aren't rocket scientists, right? These guys ain't brain surgeons, right? Because they put out very few brain surgeons. So if these guys can get it, and I've seen plenty of stupid lawyers, then then anybody can get it that applies themselves, right? But it it takes application. You know, it's it's not like um, you know, these people doing these nail order businesses where you order the course, you read a you know, uh, two pages of it, you say, ah, that shit don't work. You know? So yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:02:13

Yeah, I'm looking over at the chats. Um, I want to read Ryan. Uh Ryan said, I think it's clear that 1-A auditors have definitely improved things, at least regarding police. I appreciate them. Hopefully, the public will learn as well. I think that's important to distinguish that oftentimes what I have found, at least uh where I'm at, the public tries to use police as pawns. And if the if if the cops are trained properly, they see that. And it that ain't a that ain't an issue. But more oftentimes than not, they're not trained well enough. And we see these cops that are getting used as pawns, and pe people are weaponizing using their emotional response because they don't like what you're doing, and they don't know the constitution as well. And and this is where we really start to run into issues is when people weaponize police. Because all it takes is for one unhinged cop that doesn't understand, doesn't know because he has shit training, and comes in, and now we got a use of force. And who does that lay on? It lays on the cop for sure. Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking any liability away from the cop, but now a citizen just weaponizes the officer, and they got nothing. There's no repercussion for that citizen.

SPEAKER_13 2:03:29

Well, it falls on both of them, actually. And and when citizens conspire with the government to violate someone's rights, they can be held liable under a 1983 act. And so if if somebody, a private citizen, had called the law on me and and their call had had this officer violating my rights, I would definitely include them in a 1983 suit. Now, this has never happened to me, and I've never had to go to court over it, so I don't know what the outcome would be. Uh, and I'm definitely not a lawyer, nor do I offer legal advice. But um I would think that that would be uh a pathway uh to to go forward with that. Um but you you know, and and and and what you said, it's not just the offices, right? And when I said that the state hires more idiots every year, it's because the state puts out idiots every year, right? You go to the public school, 40% can not read, you know, and there's no critical thinking classes, there's no psychology classes, there's no civic classes, there's um you know, I've I've homeschooled my kids their their whole life. Um, my oldest is 18. This is her last year, so you know, going on, she doesn't want to go to college, she wants to do some other stuff start and other stuff like that. My youngest is 13, but um when we got pregnant, I said to myself, how did the great mind of the last 2,000 years, how did they learn, right? Because it wasn't a public school, that's you know, only been around a hundred and thirty years or so. Um, and and how did public school start? Who funded it? What were their goals? You know, what were they trying to achieve? And uh Woodrow Wilson, the ex-president, who was also a um uh college um administrator, he had a um uh speech that he gave to the New York Teachers Association in 1908, and in that speech, he said that the the job of public education is not to educate everyone, right? Because they don't have enough time. He said that they can only educate a small minority, and the vast majority, by necessity, can only be educated enough to do menial tasks. And since 1908 and our public school system, you see that that's exactly how that played out. Now, um public school was pushed by uh a group called the General Education Board back in the early 1900s, and that was uh a big receiver of donations from Rockefeller. Now, the the first question that I thought of um to try to critically think was why is a gentleman whose business name, like in the business circles, he was known as John D. Rockefeller, right, because of his business tactics. Um, just ruthless, right, in the oil industry, John D. Rockefeller, well-known ruthless guy. Why is he donating money to educate people to then challenge his heirs? Right? Because when you think about it, when you educate people, now these people become a threat to your business, right? To your empire, to your children, your grandchildren. Right? So why would a guy like that try to educate all these people? And he wasn't trying to educate them, he was just trying to educate them enough to come work in his oil refinery. That's it. He wasn't looking to educate him to in order to replace his grandson as the CEO of Standard Oil by no means. Yeah and so that's the kind of people that invested and nurtured and brought up brought about the the public education system. So I told my wife right off the bat, I said, I'll I'll live in a cardboard box before I send my child to the state to get quote unquote educated.

SPEAKER_09 2:07:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_13 2:07:40

And and that's basically what we've done. And um, yeah, it's it's it's terrible. It's it's terrible.

SPEAKER_09 2:07:47

Yeah, as a person as a person who has is I have a dual master's degree. And the only reason I have that is because the military paid for it. So if if I didn't have to pay for it, I and I understand how the system works. It's a piece of paper. If that piece of paper gives me some sort of leverage over other people, that's what I'm gonna use it for. I mean, why wouldn't I? Uh in my profession, if I if I want to move up and I want to get advantages, I you know, you may not like the game, but sometimes you just gotta play it, depending on the path that you're gonna take. So for me, I I did my path in in education under the same thing that I'm already getting trained in, and that's policing. So my master's is criminology and criminal justice. Do you think I learned anything about criminology and criminal justice in in college? I didn't. I I learned little things here and there, but nothing worth that price tag that they put on it and the time that it takes to get it. I didn't learn shit from that. Uh so I always laugh when I always laugh when I hear, you know, uh oh, we're this department, they only hire cops with a with a bachelor's degree. And I'm like, some of the best cops I know are high school educated. Yep. I mean, look at Banny. 100%.

SPEAKER_13 2:09:09

Critical thinking doesn't come from amount of years spent in a school because no, I mean, there's lit literally doctors with no common sense, and they've spent their damn whole life in in school, right? So um it it just it it sucks, but you know, we've been pushed this way, right? This this didn't happen by chance. We didn't, you know, back in um 1700, 1800, a young man um was required to handle his own legal affairs, right? So when the country was founded, there were no prosecutors, right? If somebody wronged you, you were the prosecutor, right?

SPEAKER_05 2:09:54

Yeah.

Bodycam Review: Bakersfield OIS

SPEAKER_13 2:09:55

And so it's just we've fallen so far down this intellectual ladder, you know, even from a hundred years ago when men would have dens the Hillswood library, you know, hardcovered leather books, and you know, they would read. And now you've got men that sit around watching an 85-inch TV, so you can see a really good picture of that man in tight's ass as he runs down the field with the ball. You know, and it's like there's no intellectual stimulation that that's going on in in our society really anymore.

SPEAKER_09 2:10:28

Yep. Yeah. Yep, I'm with you. Uh, you know, the some of the best cops I know, I I I see some commonalities. They were in uh they were baristas, they were you know um bartenders, they were in retail. Like I'm I don't know how to explain it, but I'm very inquisitive, and I've always been this way, but I'm very inquisitive when I'm around co-workers. And I see cops I respect, or I see cops that I'm like, God damn, this guy's good. Like I can the way he's talking to this dude, the way he's he's getting information from this person, or the way that he's handling this call, and like like it he hasn't been a cop that long. Why is he so damn good at this? And I I'll ask him, I'll be like, hey, what'd you do for a living before you were a cop? I always ask that question. I want to I want to know their past, how they got to where they were at. And it's it's these people that that I I find them the parallels to comedians is so strange. That most of the great cops had a shit upbringing. They they had to struggle their way up, they they didn't grow up with money, they didn't grow up with education, and they worked in services. Some sort of, you know, what like I said, whether it's retail or you know, bartender or whatever, those are the best cops. They don't need to go to college, they they just know how to talk to people and how to deal with them. I don't I don't know why that is. I but for me, in my 20 years of talking to people and asking that specific question around the cops that I really like and enjoy, uh, that seems to be the commonality. And then the cops that I I ask the same type of questions the cops that I don't care for. And more often than not, more often than not, the cops that I don't really care for, they grew up sheltered and they went to college right out of high school, and they didn't they didn't really face any real struggle, but they all want to say they did. Because you'll try to press back. I'll ask them, I'm like, like, oh, so you know, like what'd you do, you know, growing up? You know, because I I'm not an idiot. I I'll talk to I'll ask questions in a non-probing way, but I'm probing it to try to figure them out. And I'll ask them, I'm like, oh, okay, cool. I'm like, you know, what jobs did you do before this? And they're like, oh, I did this, that, and the other.

SPEAKER_08 2:12:41

I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_09 2:12:42

And the commonality is some of them didn't ever work, they just went straight from high school to to college, and then they became a cop. And then I ask them about the neighborhoods or state, like the areas they grew up in, and I'll look it up, and I'm you know, I'm like, oh shit, they grew up in a Boy Scout area. They there's not a whole lot going on there. So the the the cops that don't have the struggle, they didn't grow. It's not that they can't do good, it's just my experience with them is they're not typically in general sense, they're not the best cops. But that's who we want, that's who we hire.

SPEAKER_13 2:13:16

Well, right, and it also has to do with you know, people's beliefs as well. You know, they grew up in those neighborhoods, they have the family's beliefs, like so. Anyone that works in public service, I have a hard time changing their mind that there might be something offensive with the government.

SPEAKER_09 2:13:34

Somebody fall?

SPEAKER_13 2:13:35

How the government's doing my wife dropped the I think my wife dropped the log. We keep uh the house for the fireplace.

SPEAKER_09 2:13:45

Got a wood stove, baby. That's what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_13 2:13:48

Yeah, no, we got a fireplace tonight.

SPEAKER_09 2:13:50

But okay.

SPEAKER_13 2:13:51

Um not now forgot my train of thought because you dropped that thing. No worries.

SPEAKER_09 2:13:57

No worries. Um, well, sir, uh, I will say this. I really appreciate your time and you jumping on. I want to do a full podcast with you, uh, if you're willing, and uh do it right. But um, thank you so much for dropping in. Uh, I hope you guys stay warm tonight as a person that grew up in Michigan. I fully understand having a fireplace and having a wood stove and uh all that good stuff. So um, but no, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_13 2:14:24

Absolutely, guys. Thanks for having me. And uh yeah, I'll definitely be down this up something up. Just let me know whenever I'm pretty flexible.

SPEAKER_09 2:14:31

So all right, brother. Appreciate it. Thanks. All right, take it easy.

SPEAKER_13 2:14:34

Thanks again, guys. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_09 2:14:36

Have a good night. Thank you. Um let me uh get this going here. All right, there we are. Um, so did we get another one? Oh no.

SPEAKER_11 2:14:48

Maybe I'm just jumping out.

SPEAKER_09 2:14:50

Yeah, I was gonna say I heard a I heard the noise. So uh looking over at the cop. Comp the compliments. The uh comments. Comments. That's what I was looking for. Uh, just seeing what everybody's saying. Uh, Chaplain Campbell said, Thank you for the privilege privilege to join uh tonight's conversation. May each of you stay safe and receive blessings. They it's always so nice when a chaplain just blesses you. I don't know why. I uh I do believe that there is a God out there, so for me it's always comforting. Love that.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:24

But um 100%.

SPEAKER_11 2:15:26

Uh you know, one of the things that didn't get brought up when we were talking to him is the stuff they do beforehand, too. You know, they're at all the you know, um they'll show up at briefings, they'll show up at you know, some of the dinners and things like that. And so they get to know the guys um in the situations before they actually become situations, and that's pretty appreciative, you know, yeah, because they actually know who they are.

SPEAKER_09 2:15:51

Yep. Um so we we got I pulled up some videos. So I mean, this is kind of the thing that we do on our lives and uh when we do our live streams and stuff. We're two hours and 15 minutes in, which isn't uncommon for us, you know. If we got we've got over, we've got over a classroom size with us right now. So uh we're gonna keep keep going. And uh I would love to see what what we can uh find out on some of these newer videos that we haven't talked about. So um let me share the screen again. If you guys are not familiar with what we do with these body cam videos, is we have never watched them. Let me biggie size this real quick. Uh we have never watched these videos. If we have seen them, we'll let you guys know. Um, but the point is it's not Monday morning quarterbacking. We're going to go through these body cam videos as though we are the officers on the call and kind of give you that inside look at some officers' training. If you guys have questions, if you have concerns, if you're like, why the fuck would you do that? or I would have done this instead, put it in the comments. Let us know. We'll walk through them. This is the interactive time. Um, I mean, the whole night's been interactive time. So uh you guys had your opportunity to jump on the live. Uh, if if somebody to our mods, if they're listening still, if somebody does decide they want to jump on, let us know. We're not gonna shut that off, but uh, we're gonna move over to our next segment, which is body cam reviews. Uh, Bany, uh, Alan, anything to add?

SPEAKER_11 2:17:29

No, I think that's a great idea. Uh keep it moving.

SPEAKER_09 2:17:32

All right, let's keep it rolling. Let me know if you guys can hear this when it starts. Okay, shout out to Police Activity. All of our videos tonight are off of their YouTube channel. So make sure you like, subscribe, follow uh police activity. I always like to give credit to um these guys because they take the time to get this public information. So I'm sorry, I know there's a lot of action that was about to start. Normally I say this before we hit play. I forgot to do it. Uh, so here we go. Let's uh hit play. Okay, I don't know what we're doing, but we're chasing somebody. That's what it seems like to me. Banning, you got anything to add on this so far?

SPEAKER_00 2:18:23

I feel the same.

SPEAKER_09 2:18:24

Yeah. Yeah, he's moving. Um, and and I don't see anybody, so he's moving really fast towards nothing to me right now.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:34

He's not running a golden corral. He's recording for a reason.

Tactics, Tasers, And Firearm Transitions

SPEAKER_09 2:18:37

Yeah, so I don't know what's happening, but I'm gonna be on high alert. Um, we don't run with our gun out mostly. So that is a thing, guys. I want you to understand police departments have policy about running with your gun in your hand because you don't want an accidental um bang. So uh there are moments where it may be against policy, but I understand why cops do it and I'm okay with it. If if I see if I'm on the guy's heels and he takes a corner, I'm not gonna wait to get my gun out to go around this corner. I'm gonna be running with my gun out. I'll deal with the consequences of violating the general orders. Is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_04 2:19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:19:21

Okay. All right, we're gonna keep going. This isn't a long video, so it's something's gonna happen fast. Okay, so we're getting some uh commands. I still don't know what we have. It looks like we're coming to a natural conclusion. So if I like I said, if I'm on their heels, my gun's coming out, um, I'm by myself, or at least it appears I'm by myself. So a taser's out of the question because we don't we want to come down in use of force levels, not start too low and then have to jump to something higher. So in this case, right now it's nighttime, you can't see that well. Have no idea what this guy did. What you and I were all guessing, we don't know. So I'm assuming if we're chasing after him, it's something pretty serious. So my gun's coming out. You guys got anything on that?

SPEAKER_00 2:20:19

No, you can you can always pull that out in a situation like this. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to pull the trigger.

SPEAKER_09 2:20:24

Right. And and you can switch to something else.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_09 2:20:26

So if if we get there and we can see his hands, maybe we switch over to our taser.

SPEAKER_11 2:20:31

Yeah, I mean, there for a second, it looked like maybe it was his gun in his hands as he came around this truck, but it looks to be that it was just his flashlight.

SPEAKER_09 2:20:40

So yeah, I I can't fucking tell. I mean, he's got a flashlight on, which the if he is right hand dominant, this is a dangerous thing. Yep, yep. So we'll we'll see. There we go. We're the guy. Oh it's like a horror movie. I think that's a flashlight on the gun. Oh, is he using a weapon-mounted light?

SPEAKER_11 2:21:04

Yeah, that's a weapon weapon-mounted light.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:08

I I I'm just gonna say something. I have not seen something this jumpy and sketchy with axon. I can see that it's a long time. And this is a uh what appears to be less than a month old video. Yeah. So what what's going on here? Are they are they going into that data that's not recorded? Do you understand?

SPEAKER_11 2:21:30

I think it's a lot of these guys are wearing these outer carriers.

SPEAKER_09 2:21:34

Yeah, I think he's got a loose outer carrier, and it's bouncing.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:38

Yeah, I think it's a lot of bouncing. Something's got to be addressed with it. I mean, that's that's ridiculous in how much shake we have in it.

SPEAKER_09 2:21:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_11 2:21:44

I think I think that that is uh Yeah, we're getting some of these cradles and stuff with these cameras that flop because the these outer carriers stretch over time, and it's not holding them firm to the yep.

SPEAKER_09 2:21:57

So if Alan, what you say is true that it is a gun in his hand, this is exactly why we don't run with our gun in our hand, because we don't ever want to go hands-on with a weapon in our hand when we're fighting with a suspect because we could accidentally fire a gun.

SPEAKER_11 2:22:14

Yeah, and it and that means he's using his finger to turn this light, you know. So yeah, it's are we where are we where are we at with our finger?

SPEAKER_00 2:22:24

We also have what's called sympathetic trigger response. They scientifically known. So put that shit in your holster.

SPEAKER_09 2:22:30

Yeah, yeah. This is it's hard to do sometimes if you're really dependent on that flashlight, but um shame on them if they're dependent on that flashlight. Yeah, that's that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_11 2:22:42

So let's well, and and the second you turn it off, you just we lost your night eyes, like you know, or I mean, or turned it on, excuse me. You like there went your night eyes.

SPEAKER_09 2:22:52

So oh yeah, and that is then oh no, he meant to pull the trigger.

SPEAKER_11 2:23:03

Oh, I think they turned around. Like I did turn something in the middle. Oh yeah, you did. Oh, and he tried again. That's the third time he turned and picked his arm up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:14

I'm good.

SPEAKER_11 2:23:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_09 2:23:18

Wow. Yeah. That dude did turn. I don't know if he pointed a gun or not, but it looked like the narrative attached to this area. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna pull it up right now.

SPEAKER_11 2:23:30

I just uh let me uh I mean the first time he did look like he like was trying to brand banish something, like yeah, but it was so hard to see.

SPEAKER_09 2:23:43

Okay, so I know this is harder for y'all to read, but on Monday, December 29th, 2025, at approximately 2 15 a.m., officers with the Bakersfield Police Department were patrolling near Mohawk Street in Siena Lane. Officers initiated a traffic stop of a vehicle for a traffic-related violation. The vehicle stopped near Latina Drive in Pisa Way, where an adult male occupant fled on foot. A uniform officer pursued the individual and a physical struggle occurred while the officer caught up to him. During the struggle, the suspect suspect produced a handgun and pointed it at the officer. It was at this point the officer fired his weapon at the suspect. Officers on scene provided medical aid to the suspect where he where they were relieved by medical personnel. The suspect identified as 37-year-old Fabian Lopez was transported to a local hospital hospital where he was listed in critical condition. Then when Lopez is discharged, he will be booked at the Laredo jail facility for multiple counts of attempted murder on a case officer with a firearm-related charges.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:52

And and this a lot, this is props to where we pull this from police activity. This is more than likely what is called a public-facing narrative, which gives you the 30,000-foot view of what's being released. It's not giving you all the details, but it's giving you enough to understand what you're looking at. So the actual narrative, the the CID or detective comments, everything leading up to this will be have much more impact. But when you get something that just happened a couple days ago, you're only going to get so much of a synopsis from that department.

SPEAKER_09 2:25:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 2:25:25

That was Christmas morning. Welcome to Christmas Day, guys. Yep. Oh man.

SPEAKER_09 2:25:30

Yeah. I'm going to um I'm going to try to pause it at the right moment here. Okay, so I I don't think we're going to be able to see what he saw here.

SPEAKER_08 2:25:46

Damn. Yeah, that looks like shit.

SPEAKER_09 2:25:59

Okay, so this is he stopped firing. So this is the part I want to point out to any citizen that's watching that doesn't have much use of force or any expertise on this. The officer fired, and when the threat stopped, he stopped. So I want you to think about that. He saw a firearm, fired on this guy, and now he stopped. He's no longer shooting at this guy. So that's a good thing. He didn't just mag dump. And that guy just turned. And there was something that like it was not a cell phone in his hand. Yeah, it definitely looked like a gun. Yeah, that's that's what he sees right there. That looks like a handgun to me.

SPEAKER_11 2:26:41

That's a good job on the pause button right there, buddy. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:26:44

I'm still don't let the smoke wagon fool you. I got some quick reflexes here, son. Oh yeah, look at that. Yeah, tell me you wouldn't think that's a gun. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's uh that's a that's a good shoot all day. So he fires, and then it's gonna come again. It shows you the resolve this man has. He knows that's a gun now. It for sure. He has to know that the officer knows that's a gun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:18

I mean, we're waiting to see if that if that motion stops.

Second Bodycam: De‑Escalation To Deadly Force

SPEAKER_09 2:27:21

Yeah, and so this officer fires, stops, fires, stops. I mean, that is incredible. I I would be firing here. Yep. He is trying to get back up. There is no reasonable person that would let a cop fire at him in two different volleys to try to get back up and turn towards him. This guy's intending to try to hurt you. So that's the way I'm looking at this. He's raising his arms up. He's fucked. I can tell you right now he's fucked, but uh the way he's he's squatting there. What the f and the officer is giving commands and stops firing again. Like that is amazing. Yeah, kudos on like this. Is definitely a kudos to this officer.

SPEAKER_11 2:28:16

And look at the backdrop.

SPEAKER_09 2:28:17

Like, yeah, that's very good discipline. Very this officer is trained, and he's trained well. So I'm gonna give look, I will hold a bad cop accountable, and I will hold, I will definitely elevate a very good cop. This cop is amazing. Great job. Great job.

SPEAKER_11 2:28:37

So I think the reason why that camera's bouncing the way it is, he's wearing uh uh one of those thicker jackets, and so he's probably got the camera on the outside of that outer carriage, you know, that big thick jacket, and so that jacket's bouncing.

SPEAKER_09 2:28:51

Yeah, that's possible too. So yeah. Um out at Bakersfield, California. Good job. Uh, I I never want to see somebody have to get shot. No, but this guy had it coming. I mean, he brought that smoke on himself. Uh not sure what's being said out in the chat. I don't see anybody really, nobody's really arguing with it, it doesn't look like so. That's a good thing. We're all on the same same path with this one. Um let's go to the next. Let me uh share the screen.

SPEAKER_08 2:29:29

All right, let me biggie size this one. Alright, and let's go.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:39

What is your mercy?

SPEAKER_09 2:29:40

If you guys got questions, feel free to ask.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:48

What is he doing back here? I'm sorry? What is he doing? He just walked back here like if he worked here with us, but it's just like around the homeless person. I know he walked back here, but is he doing anything? I mean he didn't want to get out. He said he's like he said that you were seeing stuff and he was hearing stuff. I don't know. Okay.

SPEAKER_09 2:30:11

Okay, so with that, they just gave us the elements for trespassing. They they said, What is he doing? Which, like you said, that's a good dispatcher. It is. And they said that we we wanted he doesn't want to go, he doesn't want to leave, and that he's seeing things. So that is the elements of trespass. You need to tell the person they're not allowed to be there, and they continue to stay. So what do you got, Benny?

SPEAKER_00 2:30:40

I I mean here's the deal. I mean, it's and I you and I both, all three of us on the panel, we we get sent dozens of videos a day. Um, and and I understand people get upset at law enforcement, and and we have to look at dispatch, and I hold this batch to a this different regard only because my wife uh worked up through the ranks and then eventually became the dispatch supervisor. Is you've got to have the right questions. That you know, these people that are calling 911, they're going through a certain type of stress that their body doesn't go through. And unfortunately, these dispatchers, and I say fortunately and unfortunately, are trained if they're in a decent department to filter what they have to give to the responders that are going to the scene. If you hear this dispatcher, like, okay, great, he's walking around the employee area, but what is he doing? You know, is he, you know, in my you know, just looking at it as a citizen is like, is he looking for a bathroom? Is he uh, you know, is there a do you not enter? Did he defeat a locked door? These are things that first responders or officers have got to know before they come to the scene. You get confused people all the time. And we got so many people that get confused, they're not necessarily a criminal. Yeah. But this dispatcher is truly trying to get down uh to what's going on there. And and and not all dispatchers are created equal in this because sometimes the people being people, they'll put their opinions on things, they'll do this and that, and that affects the type of response that they get from law enforcement.

SPEAKER_09 2:32:14

Yep, agreed. All right. Um where's play? There we go.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:20

Give me the address. Is it still there? Or is it gone? She's still there. We're trying to like go to the front counter, but he's screaming at us. So does it look like he's a toxic or does it look like he has to do it? Maybe he's like maybe he's like now he's saying that. And he took all one of our phones from the restaurant.

SPEAKER_09 2:32:51

Now we got theft. Okay, so me as the officer, I'm gonna have all this information that I know that I'm going into a person that they were told to leave, and he's refused to leave. So I at least, at a minimum, have trespassed.

SPEAKER_00 2:33:04

You bet.

SPEAKER_09 2:33:05

I know that he's taken a phone, so now I have theft. Um, and or maybe destruction of property, something, some other offense.

SPEAKER_11 2:33:15

Uh he's not responding to their uh request.

SPEAKER_09 2:33:20

And and I can at least have dispatch jump on and say that they can kind of hear this guy in the background too, that he's still on scene. So all of these are important factors coming to the call. So I know me personally, if I'm coming to these calls, they're pretty fun for me. I like these, they're entertaining normally. So I am going to be coming into it with like, ooh, this is gonna be fun. I can't wait to see what kind of crazy person that I'm gonna be dealing with. Um, not not at the expense of the person, it's just listen, if you can't enjoy your job, then why the fuck do it? Right. So I always say we have front row tickets to the greatest show on earth, and this is the type of call that to me is fun. Yeah, absolutely. Now, now there's a lot of cops out there like, I want to go to the armed robbery of a bank. That's fun. Like, to me, not fun. That's not a fun call. I'm gonna jump on it because I want to be the guy that helps. And this not a fun call.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:17

And and and and to kind of expound on that is this person may need mental help, and this is his outcry. Yeah. We need to be able to provide the right services to said person, creating the disturbance that's that's that started the 911 call to begin with. And that's that's the big thing, is when you can actually get, and Eric's been on long enough to where you've actually seen this person, you've dealt with them, you've got them the help, and then maybe a year later you see them again, not as a 911 call, but maybe to where they're calling 911. And they've received the help that they need, and now they're contributing to uh to to the people that where they live in a good way, and they're uh contributing person now. And they've got the help they received, and they're they're an outstanding citizen, and that's that's part of this job is to see uh the help go a long way, and that's what Eric means by that. We get to see uh what our services do.

SPEAKER_11 2:35:10

Yeah, so this is also um 550 at night, so it's uh probably one of the very first calls of the night because it looks like it's the eighth call or the eighth uh recording on the camera. Um, so yeah, they're pretty fresh on the call, you know, on the night too.

SPEAKER_09 2:35:31

Yeah, well, depending on the city.

SPEAKER_11 2:35:33

Yeah, well, I'm just saying, looking at the camera, it looks like it's the eighth recording on that camera. Yeah. And you know, so it's probably just starting for their shift and pretty close to Christmas time.

SPEAKER_09 2:35:44

Yeah, it's on the 21st of December. So all of these things are factors when we're going into these calls. And and I'm gonna be honest, if I'm the first guy through the door, I'm gonna have the same kind of jovial attitude I have towards most things. I'm like, hey brother, what's going on? You know, da da da. I almost said my police department.

SPEAKER_11 2:36:04

Da da da da police department. Um, why do you do that, Eric? That's you know, I think that's something that needs to be known for a lot of people. Um, because every officer is different in how they do that.

SPEAKER_09 2:36:17

Um, the there's a purpose behind, there's a legal purpose behind it. The reason I come in and immediately identify myself is because if I do have to go to court later, I want there to be no question that I identified myself as a police officer. I told you exactly who I am, and uh I came in trying to be chill. Like right, no, no matter what they say, they're like, What would what did you say, Officer Lev Levine? Well, I said, Hey brother, what's going on? Officer Levine, da da da police department. You know, it and there's no question. I am in a full uniform. Uh there's no question that I'm not the guy. So they can't argue that, well, he didn't know you were a police officer. Right. You know, motherfucker, because I told you. So um that's the reason I do that. And and two, I'm trying to de-escalate my mannerisms, how I talk, and the way I talk all are a de-escalation tactic.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:07

What are you giggling about? Wade Lasero's comment that's up to the government and we're here to help.

SPEAKER_09 2:37:14

Yeah, if I say that, don't trust that shit.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:17

That's a good stuff.

SPEAKER_09 2:37:20

Yeah, if I come in the door saying that, run.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 2:37:24

I I'll be honest. I I mean, I've seen you talk to people, but like it it's also to like let everybody else in the room know, hey, I'm here. And you know, the tensions are already tight if the cops are getting called.

SPEAKER_09 2:37:37

I want every witness to say, I heard that officer come in. He was so chill. He was just like, hey, he called him brother.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:44

And I'm I'm venturing to guess he's probably during this call gonna ask for his ID. Just FYI. I'm gonna throw that out there. It's coming.

Split‑Second Entry After Armored Truck Robbery

SPEAKER_09 2:37:55

I uh me personally, the ID is one of the furthest furthest things from my mind. I want throwing that out there. Yeah, when I go in personally, I want to start getting a conversation going with this person. So I'm gonna be like, hey, brother, officer Levine, you know, or Sergeant Levine, uh, whatever you want to say. Um uh, you know, what's going on tonight? You know, ah, these motherfuckers, whatever he wants to say. Okay, oh hey, cool. Hey, do me a favor. Like, I don't want to cause any trouble in here or anything like that. Can we go outside and talk? And then I'm gonna now it's an assessment moment. Yep. My questions are made for assessment, they're not to set you up, they're not to do anything. I want to see where I'm at with this person. Can I reason with them? Can I not reason with them? Um, if I can reason with them, then then yeah, they're gonna come outside and talk to me because now they see a uniform, they see an authority. We'll see their level of compliance. If they're if they're chill and they're cool, all right, awesome. And I'm gonna let them know, hey man, you're not in any trouble right now. I don't I don't know what's going on. I need to find out, but I want to get your side of the story, and I got to do that out here. My partner's gonna come over and talk to these people, and this is where it goes into conform uh informed uh strategy. This is my favorite way of being a cop. Informed strategy. So I go in and I tell you what's going on, so there's no questions. Why are you separating us? Why you why do you want your partner? Because they're gonna talk and get their side of the story, so you can give me your side of the story, and now they're like, oh yeah, this motherfucker's gonna get my side. You know, it because I I guarantee this guy's off his rocker and he's not acting in his right mind. So I need to appeal to his right mind the best we can while he's in his drug-induced, alcohol-induced, mental health issue induced, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 2:39:41

Well, and in reality, Eric, well, I mean, this this could be somebody that has had so much building up today. Okay, I'm not talking about so many mental problems. Somebody that had so much building up today, and he came through the drive-thru line because we've we've both seen this on calls, and he asked for ketchup four different times from the first taking the order to coming up to the window to going here, and then he gets in his bag and he comes out to the parking lot and he looks in there, and he's in his mind, these MFers didn't put friggin' ketchup in it. Yeah, like I'm I've lost my mind. His wife maybe sitting in the passenger seat, and he goes inside, and he's gonna get his friggin' ketchup because that's supposed to come with the order. Now, we've seen those escalate. Now, we can usually pipe those down pretty quick. Um, and it could be the latter as well, but we've seen those even get carried to a point of law enforcement presence is needed to cool the situation.

SPEAKER_09 2:40:32

Yeah, I'm laughing over here at shotguns and tattoos. She said, spray bottle, no, bad criminal. Look at the cat.

SPEAKER_11 2:40:42

Get off the counter, bad guy. Uh well, and and I bring that up also because there's also those officers you don't want going through the front door first. Uh, you know, we all have them on that team, and and you're like, oh, what you know, I'm gonna go and confront that guy. You go talk to the manager, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:41:00

Because I I look everybody knows I I am not a scene control hog. Yep, but if I see somebody I know it's gonna escalate the scene, and I'm like, nope, I got it. Stand shut the fuck up. I got this. I am in the process of doing a Freedom of Information Act. I I have a uh CIT video, my own personal body cam video. I am I'm gonna get it, and then I am gonna edit it so you can't tell the department, you can't tell any of that shit. So that's that's a goal. I want you to see, I and I'm gonna show you because I had a person that was on the scene where I didn't want them doing anything, and you see me tell them. And and and we're friends, like I know this guy. It's just uh I knew what I was dealing with, I got a lot more experience in him. I just didn't want him to do rookie shit. And he he was a rookie. I don't want to say he's a full rookie, but I didn't have the confidence in him at the time.

SPEAKER_11 2:41:56

So well, and then there's times where you want him to go and initiate it because you know how he's gonna, you know, there's certain situations, every one of them, you know, uh is a different scenario, and and and so you can just participate.

SPEAKER_09 2:42:11

I needed patience, and I knew I had the time, and it and I had the patience for it, and I had a you know, it was me and two other officers. One of the officers had a lot of experience and was also like me, very patient, and then the other one did not have a reputation for being the patient guy. And and it's not nothing against him. He's not a bad cop, he's a great cop. It's just we're built different, and I didn't need his style in this particular moment. So um, I'm gonna keep playing here and see how we we I think that's our bad guy at that door right now, by the way. Kind of looks like him. And listen, when you guys hear me say bad guy, relax. It's just suspect, the person that's being called on, whatever you want to call it. I just use bad guy because it's just how I'm gonna my culture and how I was raised with policing. That doesn't mean they're an actual bad person. And I will say, everybody looks chill, nobody's got a gun out, nobody's got their tasers out yet, nobody's got shit out. So this is I'm liking how this is starting out. Our guys back up. My big concern as we're walking through the door is hands. I'm always worried about hands because when I see them, so I'm still gonna talk chill. I just want to try to see hands, and I'll ask them or do something to try to get them to show me their hands. They're like, What's up, bro? And I'm like, What you don't want to wave to me? I've used that a million times. You don't want to wave to me, and then you see them like, oh, I'm sorry. Well, guess what? I just figured out what your dominant hand is, and I just watched you it's empty.

SPEAKER_11 2:43:53

This is a worthy strategy, y'all. It works. And and you weren't yet sitting there, show me your hands. Yeah, get your hands out of the pocket, you know, that automatically escalates.

SPEAKER_09 2:44:02

Like ask him to fist bump or whatever it is. Yeah, just I it's not because I'm trying to be friendly. I mean, I am being friendly, but I'm also this is listen, I know it's a dumb face, it's a whole dumb head, but I'm good at this. I'm good at the cop stuff. I'm not good at a lot of things, but cop stuff. So all right, let's keep going. Hey, what's up, big dog? There we go. I like that. I don't like that my left hand is being hidden. However, I will say most people aren't left-handed. This would be one of the first things I start to look towards, and um, but I would be concerned with this. I don't like this, I don't like the backing up, the putting the hand out, trying to tell me to stay.

SPEAKER_11 2:44:44

Yeah, he's making distance. I mean, he moved from the door even before you got the door started to be open.

SPEAKER_09 2:44:50

So I'm not gonna necessarily start addressing the hand as a threat, like to make him get tense, but I'm like, hey man, excuse me, you're not in trouble. We're just here to talk, we're just here to talk. Just do me a favor, just keep your hands out of your pockets while we talk. That's the that's the direction I'm gonna try to go here.

SPEAKER_11 2:45:08

And I'm gonna hey, are you the one that I'm here to talk to? You know he's the guy, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:45:16

Play ignorant, yeah, and now he's putting his other hand in his pocket, so that's that's a concern.

SPEAKER_04 2:45:22

Okay, just keep your hands out of your pockets. Come here.

SPEAKER_09 2:45:25

Okay, so he's following the exact de-escalation pattern I would do. Hey man, you're good. Just keep your hands out of your pockets. I like the way he's doing this. Has anybody got anything else to say on this? I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:45:38

We we've got no beef. I mean, as long as the guy, first of all, we have legal reason to be there. That that that's the big thing. Do we have a legal reason to be there? We do. And and whatever comments of the dispatcher that it was uh pretty profound in the beginning of this, put the good information out there. So we have a legal reason to be there. We're at we're giving him a legal command. We're trying to figure out what's going on. How can we help him on whatever whatever he's upset about, and and on top of that, how can we help the original complainant? And hopefully it doesn't have to go to force, period. Yeah, yeah.

Closing Notes, Sponsors, And New Sunday Slot

SPEAKER_09 2:46:13

Now there is uh an obscure tech technique that I have seen other officers do that I I honestly I've adopted, but I'm very scarce on how I use it. I have seen officers, they'll they're like, hey man, how like as they're coming in right now. I want you to picture this. Hey man, hey, we're not here for you. You have a good night, and they'll go over and talk to the complainant. That's a brilliant technique, but it's it's risky, like it there's a lot of risk behind it.

SPEAKER_11 2:46:43

Well, he's got he's got numbers, and I we uh we've used that quite a bit where okay, now maybe he'll go outside, and the two that are outside can deal with him. Why yeah you know, and and it kind of gives you an opportunity to separate you and the the people working there, yes, and so I I do like where we're at.

SPEAKER_09 2:47:03

That there's nobody in there. I I see no workers, it doesn't look like there's any workers behind him. I don't even know what we're at, to be honest. This restaurant does not look familiar, 24-hour food chain somewhere. Yeah, I'm not sure what we're at, but uh okay, so let's keep going.

SPEAKER_03 2:47:22

Stop.

SPEAKER_09 2:47:24

That's not good. This is where uh I'm stopping and probably using that corner that we just came up to. I don't want to be in the open while somebody's digging. I I'm always scanning for an escape route. Uh call it hypervigilance, call it whatever you want, but I'm always scanning for an escape route. And so as I'm gonna go back just a little bit.

SPEAKER_11 2:47:48

Uh my only case we were getting hit is where where are the employees?

SPEAKER_09 2:47:52

Like this is my this is a blind hole right there. Yeah, I'm gonna wait. I'm gonna get to this point, but I'm not gonna go any farther because this guy keeps backing up unless I feel like there's um employees right there. But I there's nothing indicating that to me right now.

SPEAKER_00 2:48:10

No, and let's let's think about from what we're saying on this. I mean, what's right behind him is a couple of Drankenized machines. It's probably the drive-through line. You may have a car may uh on the other side of that window. I mean, you have got to think of this as that offer coming on scene.

SPEAKER_11 2:48:26

Um, and hopefully that officer that was at the door with you, like told everybody else to go to the other because yeah, that female officer opened the door. Hopefully, they're getting the rest of that building looked into.

SPEAKER_09 2:48:40

Yeah, agreed. So yeah, I don't I don't like where we end up going to it. To me, I can't tell if this is suicide by copia, but I'm getting those vibes already. Um, yep. Uh whether that's drug induced or not. Um, but I do want to give a shout out to Mr. Bill Fold. He uh dropped a level one donut membership today. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:49:02

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_09 2:49:03

Yeah, Wade Lucero said reaching, reaching. Yeah, he is reaching. Like this. And if you're in the comment section tonight, like tell me how would you feel? You gotta go deal with this crazy dude that's doing crazy shit, pretty close to Christmas. Like, how much do you let them get away with?

SPEAKER_11 2:49:22

And and if you do too much too quick, you're over-escalating, but if you don't do enough, you're under-escalating, and you know, it there's a fine line, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:49:33

And and can't I would love to uh I I think we all agree that this officer's mo uh his his style of de-escalation is perfect. I don't know anybody that wouldn't like this style of de-escalation. I feel like this is exactly how I would do it. Maybe not the same words, but the style and tone is spot on. I I mean, I told you guys what I would do as we went in, and then it's exactly what he said. I would I was like, I'd be concerned about him reaching, so I would address that, but at the same time, I would keep an easy tone, and that's exactly what this guy did, and we didn't know that going into it. So we're gonna play here.

SPEAKER_03 2:50:19

Stop.

SPEAKER_11 2:50:21

Hey, did he just cock a gun? I think it was him coming with the taser out of his taser holes.

SPEAKER_09 2:50:30

Was that what that was? I'm gonna go back just slightly because I swear I saw uh this I I thought something. I'm gonna play from here.

SPEAKER_04 2:50:40

Hey, heal! Okay, his hand's empty. Relax, get on the ground, get on the ground.

SPEAKER_09 2:50:47

Okay, so this is what I want to know. He's still being very chill, the officer's being very chill. Nobody's yelling, nobody's escalating. He went to a taser, which I don't mind because we can see the hands are empty. Um, now this is where force science really comes into play because we've got our taser pointed at him, and this dude's already reaching again. So now we have to process that he's reaching. And if this guy were to pull out a knife or a gun, we're way behind the curve. The taser is not what you want to rely on in that situation.

SPEAKER_11 2:51:21

So, do you think, and and we'll probably see it, you know, they're good about having other angles. Do you think she's at the same distance he is on his right?

SPEAKER_09 2:51:29

I would imagine they're online. That's what I'm thinking. I bet she's on the little other side of this wall that we see here, this red wall.

SPEAKER_11 2:51:36

I'm just wondering in his peripheral, if he can see she's got her gun out.

SPEAKER_09 2:51:41

Like, I kind of feel like he's honed in on the female, the suspect.

SPEAKER_11 2:51:44

It looks like he's looking at that's why I'm wondering, like, maybe she has a gun out, and that's why he's looking at her or not.

SPEAKER_09 2:51:50

Possibly, yeah. Um, so yeah. I like I said, I don't have a problem with his taser being out. I would like some communication.

SPEAKER_11 2:51:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_09 2:51:59

Hey, I'm gonna go taser, you go lethal, whatever. Um, you don't even have to say that. All I need to say, I if you're trained properly, all I need to say is I'm gonna go taser, and that other person automatically knows they're lethal. So um, I'm just looking over at the comments. Uh Wade said it's a retention click. Um looks like something in the left hand. Uh, there's another genius trying to get a shot.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:26

Too hard to see that left hand on this motion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 2:52:29

To me, it looks like the left hand's open and he's trying to get into that right hand.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:35

Stabilize the jacket to get in there.

SPEAKER_09 2:52:37

Yeah. Yeah. To me, the I'm just gonna say, based on his body language, that's a gun draw motion. That's not a knife draw motion. I I don't know how to explain that. I've seen a lot of people draw knives out. That's not how they do it. Most people blade their body this way when they're trying to grab a gun. I I don't know why that is. I never even thought about that until just now.

SPEAKER_11 2:52:59

They hold their forearm different too.

SPEAKER_09 2:53:01

Yeah. Yeah, this is a gun draw. I think this guy's going to draw a gun, or uh, or at least pretend he is, and and he's gonna pull his hand out and do the finger draw. So that could be something else we have to be concerned about. Shotguns and tattoos. What song is that?

SPEAKER_11 2:53:16

Because you're right. Now that song's in my head. What song? There was music playing in the restaurant. Oh, I didn't hear it.

SPEAKER_04 2:53:25

I said you.

SPEAKER_09 2:53:28

That's a gun. I was right.

SPEAKER_11 2:53:30

That's a gun.

SPEAKER_09 2:53:31

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_11 2:53:32

And you have a taser.

SPEAKER_09 2:53:34

And you got a taser. Yeah. I'm I'm not gonna lie, I'm gonna pull the trigger on the taser and dumb drop it as I'm going for my gun. Yep. I mean, at least that's what I'm hoping I would do. Yep. What do you got, Banning?

SPEAKER_00 2:53:48

No, it just we see so much of these people, and I understand it, that it's so much heat from the community. They're pulling these tasers out. When when when it's an unknown object, we have to make sure that we're at the level. We can always digress. Yep. We can always come back. Yeah, but you've you've got to go home at the end of the night, period. And and a lot of people are gonna argue with me on that, and I don't care. Um, argue with me. But I want to make sure that everybody, even including the guy that's making bad decisions in front of that soda machine right there, it's it's it's ridiculous. We we've got to go to the next level. There's a time and a place for Taser.

SPEAKER_09 2:54:26

Yeah, yeah. I like what Mr. Billfold said here. Um, we in the community try and humanize we the people to LEOs, and Eric and the crew humanize the badge. I never enjoyed or watched body cam videos in like this before these streams. So I appreciate that. That's kind of I listen, it's not gonna do us any good for us to talk at you guys and and and throw a bunch of cop vomit of like this is how they need to handle this call, dah dah dah, dah. Like I've never believed that. But what I've never seen anybody do, and this is why I do it the way I do it, is I just want you to know how I'm thinking of a call as I'm doing it. Like, this is how I'm thinking as I'm going through a call. You guys, if I was full of shit, there wouldn't be consistency. I think I've I at least me and Banning, as we've been on here, the way we tell you we're gonna handle, and even Alan, the way we tell you we handle calls, the consistency is there. We've been doing this fucking five years. Like, I'm just I'm being honest. This is how I handle a call. I'm going through, and this is what I'm thinking. So I think that alleviates a lot of um misconception of how like have you guys ever heard me going into a call and go? I know I got qualified immunity, so I'm going, I'm gonna be able to handle this call as well. I've never thought that way once in my life. I've never even thought of qualified immunity, not once.

SPEAKER_11 2:55:48

It's never even been a thought in my head. You know what it's come across my mind is I hope tonight's not the night.

SPEAKER_09 2:55:54

Yeah, I've thought that. Yep. I I I okay, I will be honest. I have had the thought a few times. Like, well, if I get shot, I hope it's a cool one where it's like in the leg but not like deadly, and I can be like, oh yeah, I got shot in the leg, but I was able to return fire.

SPEAKER_07 2:56:11

I've thought that shit. Well, maybe you know, hopefully if I do take a round, like it hits me in the vest, and you know, I'm like, oh god, that hurts so bad, but then I'm good.

SPEAKER_11 2:56:21

Or you've had the moment where you've almost shit yourself because it's like, oh shit, that just happened. Oh yeah, no, I've had those.

SPEAKER_00 2:56:29

Oh, many, many a time.

SPEAKER_09 2:56:30

Yeah, I've had those. Yeah, uh, I've had those moments where I'm like, I'm being shot at and I can't fire back because there's too many people. Oh shit. That's bad. That was a bad, yeah, yeah. That was not a conversation I had with my wife. I was like, she's like, how'd work I was like? This is crazy. Yeah, I didn't want to tell me to stop doing it. So uh, but yeah, Mr. Bill Foldy brings up a good point um when he's talking about, you know, that they'd never watched streams like this before. And I think the reason, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason that is is because we're not talking at you. We're just telling you how we think about these calls as though we're in them. We're not cop splaining. I'm simply just telling you how I handle calls.

SPEAKER_00 2:57:15

And throw up Mr. Bill Fold's comment up there in the top because that's important. And that's that's you know, Eric and I talk to cops all over this country. This one No, the very the very the one that just came up, uh you don't think about QI because you are a good cop who's acting within the reasonableness standard of the of the fourth when you do your job. And and and Eric and I know thousands of cops that do that. Um so QI is never an issue, but that's that's a very good comment. I appreciate Mr. Billfold bringing that up. Is that all cops? No. Are some of them out there violating? Absolutely, and we're here to highlight that. But that that that's a that's a brazen comment, and I appreciate Mr. Billfold doing that. Uh, and we're Eric and I are both seeing some of the stuff that we didn't see prior to this podcast nationwide.

SPEAKER_09 2:58:05

Yeah, oh absolutely. I I will fully, I've said it several times on the podcast, but having having this platform doing what I do has made me a better cop because I'm able to see outside of my own fishbowl. You guys are able to give me perspectives that I don't uh I will never see if I stay in my current status or that current status I was in. And I knew that. I knew that, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to create this. It's one of the reasons I became a cop was so unique. You know, how do you become a cop now?

SPEAKER_11 2:58:35

Hey, Eric, touch your mic connection and just like the bottom of your mic or something, because it's oh, I mean, where it's plugging in on the XLR, it just went weird.

SPEAKER_09 2:58:46

Test one two there it goes.

SPEAKER_11 2:58:48

It's good back to normal. Yep, I'm glad you told me it just did it, so like 10 seconds.

SPEAKER_09 2:58:55

Okay. So, but yeah, that's uh, you know, I jumped into being a cop, not liking cops, you know. Um it was shitty in Flint.

SPEAKER_11 2:59:04

So well, and I think that's where experience and you know lifestyle and things like that give you a good um head on your shoulders. You know, we talk about officers and age and things like that. And, you know, I was luckily I was 27 when I became a cop. I was a little later, you know, down the road. I was a little more um grown up, so I see it a little different, but I also had some experience growing up, you know, where I knew where the bad side of town was, and I knew, you know, like I lived there, and so I understood how to talk and do those kind of things. And then we get people that don't grow up, you know, that way and they don't understand that what it's like to not have food that night. And you know, it's just it's different.

SPEAKER_09 2:59:50

Yeah. One of my favorite ways to say is if you didn't eat cereal out of a cool whip bowl that had spaghetti stains on the side, then you didn't grow up like me. Uh I stole that joke, but it explains it. I think it was Ralphie May that said that joke. Uh, but he he he spoke to my soul. My mom, she'll vouch for it, she'll get on there. Uh it's usually a cottage cheese bowl that we'd eat out of, but um that's awesome. The struggle was real when we first started, you know, it was just the way it was. My mom did what she could, no shame in that. Uh and Mr. Bill Fold said, Eric, you nailed it, you keep the cop splaining to a bare minimum. And it's funny too, because prior to this podcast, I never thought of how we explain things because most of the time we're explaining to other cops. So when the community kind of opened my eyes to what cops playing was, I found myself changing the way I talk about these things. So I'm not doing that because I understand what they're saying. I'm like, oh fuck, you're right. I am cops playing. Well, that's stupid. So let me stop doing that. And uh he said, uh, you get what you put in, Eric Banning, and Alan. We have made you guys better cops with a bigger perspective, and you made some of us uh more understanding of the police side of the coin. And that was the goal to begin with, brother. Yep, that was the goal.

SPEAKER_00 3:01:17

He had to bring up freaking Ralphie Mae, man. That guy has been uh passed away since 2017, and he was one hell of a comedian.

SPEAKER_09 3:01:23

Yeah, it was great. I loved him.

SPEAKER_00 3:01:25

Great comedian.

SPEAKER_09 3:01:25

I loved him because he he really appealed to the uh the black community. Uh, you guys will notice a trend with me. Like I loved Ralphie May. I went and watched Gary Owens. Like, these are my people. So uh totally love it. Um sorry, just looking at the things. Okay, let's finish this call. I have a feeling it's not gonna go good for the suspect.

SPEAKER_04 3:01:49

Hey! Hey!

SPEAKER_09 3:01:51

Good transition. This guy went into flinch mode. Okay, we've already fired some shots. Uh the guy had nowhere to go, it looks like. I thought there was a door right there, but apparently there's not. Backed him into a corner. Um doesn't look like we gave a whole lot of verbal commands, but the dude already pointed the gun, so I'm gonna go back.

SPEAKER_11 3:02:14

Yeah, I think they even gave him time.

SPEAKER_04 3:02:16

Like, hey, hey!

SPEAKER_03 3:02:25

1033, give me the patch.

SPEAKER_09 3:02:28

Damn, did he do all that one-handed? I believe he's the only one that fired. Because he's still got the taser, he had the taser in his left hand. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, that's crazy. Like, that was, I mean, I know that's not that far away.

SPEAKER_00 3:02:42

It looks farther than what it really is because of the fish eye lens, but um that's 12 to 15 feet from where you're standing.

SPEAKER_09 3:02:49

Yeah, so that's pretty close.

SPEAKER_04 3:02:53

And then you have 1.37, 998, 998.

SPEAKER_09 3:02:58

Just curious, we're gonna see her view. Oh, there's three. We've got three cops here. Even even his demeanor is chill. Yeah, like slouch deposit or disposition to him. Um, I know people are like, this is this is a tactic. Like, I I have changed my put my posture and everything. Like, it works. Um, you walk in there all cocky and you know, straight chest and back straight, like they teach you in the military, like that can have the opposite effect of what you want it to have.

SPEAKER_00 3:03:35

Absolutely. But command presence has to be different into call-by-call basis. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_11 3:03:40

You gotta be unless you have Danning walking in, and you just you know, he he has his own command presence.

SPEAKER_09 3:03:46

Yeah, some people say you want to be like a chameleon, and I'm like, nah, nah, son. That's that's rookie level. You want to be like an octopus. Yep. It's awesome for those that know. Gotta go. We're lining out here. Okay, so she went deadly. Good spread. Yep. That I mean, either these guys worked together a lot, and that was good. Yeah, good, or they pre-gamed it before they got there, which is possible.

SPEAKER_00 3:04:19

Either way, they're doing good so far.

SPEAKER_09 3:04:21

Yeah, good so far. Um, there's our door. So, yes, when we backed him up here, he had nowhere to go. We're online. I'm okay. I'm okay with all this. There's nowhere, I don't even see a hallway over here.

SPEAKER_00 3:04:34

I thought I'm thinking the body camera that we're looking at right now may have made that first shot, and that's just a guess.

SPEAKER_09 3:04:40

Possible. And and there is the this is where the employees are. That's an employee or where they could be. So once they back him up past that, there's nowhere for him to go.

SPEAKER_03 3:04:54

Hey, oh hey, kill on the ground.

SPEAKER_04 3:04:59

I said kill.

SPEAKER_09 3:05:04

Yep, yep, this guy fired first. Yep. Yeah. That explains it. And I don't blame him for his view either. He didn't fire until he saw that gun come up.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 3:05:16

So uh no issues.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:25

No, there's not.

SPEAKER_09 3:05:26

Um, I think these officers did what they could. They talked to the way I would have talked. I didn't see an issue with the way they were talking.

SPEAKER_00 3:05:33

So um I'm looking in the shooting, neither one of these three officers, I don't care who you are, woke up that day and said, you know what? I hope I can unlive something today. That's not what they set out to do. These guys were sent to a call with minimal knowledge, and they came there and did the best that they could with the information that they had.

SPEAKER_09 3:06:02

Yep. Yeah, Mr. Billfold said, dude holstered his taser and drew simultaneously. Good shit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 3:06:08

Yeah. Most people don't know is that holster for the taser is intentionally put in an awkward location, so yeah, you don't pull it like a gun.

SPEAKER_09 3:06:18

So yeah, you have to be very intentional with the way you draw it. If it's done right and your department's doing it the right way, you have to be very intentional with the way you you do that. I use a taser 10, it's the latest one. Um, actually, I just went through my certification course again uh maybe three weeks ago. Um, not even. And it's it's fun. It's a fun, it's it listen, if you're not a fan of tasers because you're like, uh, they're so inconsistent. I one, most of the time the inconsistency comes from the user. Let's be honest.

SPEAKER_00 3:06:52

So that didn't come we're in Scott's deal.

SPEAKER_11 3:06:55

Yeah, yeah. But um, did y'all see the throne chair at uh at CES?

SPEAKER_09 3:07:03

The throne chair?

SPEAKER_11 3:07:04

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_09 3:07:05

Is that the the Thor chair that they have?

SPEAKER_11 3:07:07

Yeah, the the Thor. Oh, oh dude, that's so awesome.

SPEAKER_09 3:07:11

Yeah, um, but yeah, so yeah, I already uh twitchy sketch, I already booted that person. I saw what they said coming in here talking about Gaza and shit. Listen, this is not the place for politics, y'all. Um, so okay, I want to do my part two. I wanted to do this on the live stream, so uh I'm gonna pull that one up tonight. It's gonna be the last video that we do. So let me share screen. If you guys happen to catch this video, you'll know what I'm talking about. We're going to biggie size this. Okay, so I want you guys to watch this video and then uh we're gonna we're gonna discuss. We're gonna play a game over the county. Okay. So I'm gonna I'm gonna stop sharing for now. We may have to share it again. Just a um, but this video, I did this intentionally because I want people to understand how they start judging videos at face value. This was a good example. Now, the the questions, a lot of the questions that people asked are like, he's running into his own house, they didn't have a right to go in there, they didn't see him go into that house. Um, to where I'd argue you don't know what they saw, you don't know what the officer saw. The timing was just right. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. What you don't know is that was not his house. This guy had just robbed an armored truck and then got in a pursuit with police, and that it was somebody they had been watching. It was a known suspect that they had been watching for this particular crime. So they get into this pursuit after he robs an armored truck, and he goes into a house with a gun, points it at the the mom that we saw, and tries to take that family hostage. Now, when in the wake of Uvaldi, in the wake of um, you know, other calls that you see where cops like the hesitation causes problems. Here you got a cop that didn't fucking hesitate at all. Zero hesitation, zero hesitation. And in my opinion, is one of the best uh reactions to a situation like this that I've seen in a long time. And if that was my family, because you can see at the end the mom runs out, she didn't get shot at all. There was no hits on her, but that guy ran in there, took her hostage with a gun. He just didn't have any time to set up. He didn't know that cop was right there on his heels yet. I bet he suspected that he was gonna have time to start fortifying and dig in or looking for another spot to escape from, and the guy didn't give it to him.

SPEAKER_00 3:10:41

No, but like look at big picture, Eric. For everybody that's watching that's never been in this profession. What is that cop going through right now? That cop that truly ended a threat. What is he personally going through? He may have a wife, he may have children. What what you know he just ended a huge threat. What is he freaking going to? Alan, Eric, I mean, tell the people that are watching that may not know. Yeah. I know, like it's just I'm I'm talking about the procedures. I mean, he's he may be calling a uh prepaid legal, they're coming out. You know, I'm talking about the motions. You know, he may be considered a hero by X percentage of whatever. And and that's you know, he's done his job, but now he's got a whole new set of stresses. Yep. Because he did his job. You know what I'm saying? I mean, that's that's that's what really bugs me is the general public has no idea of what these heroes, and I'm gonna call him a hero, because he stopped a threat on public society. But what is he going through personally right now? Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_09 3:12:00

Yep, yep. It's uh it's crazy, but I mean, damn, your boy went in, did business, saved two kids at least that we saw, uh, saved a mother. Um, and and that's the story behind that that call. And that's the whole reason I set it up because I was like, let me do a part one. I just want to get what people's reaction to it is, see what they think. And um and and I it was I was surprised. I saw a lot of people like, well, I need more information, it doesn't look right, da da da. And I'm like, okay, fair enough. Like nobody got egregious one way or the other. Like some people were like, fuck yeah, that was perfect. And I was like, all right, I mean, maybe they know, maybe they don't. No real explanation, but um the it wasn't a gotcha thing, that's not what I was going for, but it was more of I wanted people to understand, like, sometimes we start judging these videos, and you gotta understand the full picture sometimes. This is one of them because this wasn't uh this this one was well well done, it was well established. Here is here's the facts of the case, this is what we know. Um, and then you saw what you saw.

SPEAKER_11 3:13:10

So well, and you know, 10 seconds difference, you know. If he's 10 seconds later to get to that house, like yeah, that makes a big difference. A whole like he he was on his tail.

SPEAKER_09 3:13:24

Me, this is fresh pursuit.

SPEAKER_11 3:13:25

This is an exigent circumstance, which is even even if he is 10 seconds behind, uh, but maybe the late like everything just worked, yeah. It it was perfect. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:13:37

I mean you have to look at that exigency, and that's what I was talking about. That's what Eric is is agreeing with. The as exigency. Let's say that that was 10 seconds later, that that the door is shut. Maybe somebody didn't see him run into that. Now it's either a standoff, we're writing paper, we're getting robots, we're bringing people to the sound, we're utilizing our real-time crime center, our quick reaction force to our SWAT team, and then there's more lives in danger. And I we even though we're we're cops, we've been doing it for a long time, the last thing we want to see is an officer in hot pursuit magdubbing. There's a reason for it, but that's not what we want to see. There, there's obviously a reason for it, but it's just like dadgummit, how did we get to this point? But Alan has a big point on that, and there's probably people commenting. I can't my my comments or the uh the stream disappeared on my screen in reference to people's comments and whatnot. Um, I think yours did it too, Eric, earlier. But uh it's it's it's a he acted in the moment from everything showing on that video. He had to act in the moment.

SPEAKER_11 3:14:46

So well, and he like even bypassed dealing with the kid and that woman that was outside and like uh almost like move out of the way, shoved him out of the way, and like was focused in on going.

SPEAKER_09 3:14:57

But like well, the woman she was inside, yeah. When he was firing, she was inside, yeah.

SPEAKER_11 3:15:03

But even the the next group that came, it was like I I can see officers stopping and saying, Hey, you know, did you see what's going on? And you know, like and worrying about them. They were they went to the throne, and that was exactly what he was posing.

SPEAKER_09 3:15:17

I knew exactly what he was going after.

SPEAKER_00 3:15:19

So and and that we understand that those that are watching with us and have been for years, we understand the big picture. Every child, every adult that is on scene there has to process this for the rest of their life. You know what I'm saying? I mean, that's that's the big picture here. That's what we're doing is bringing the the the gap between law enforcement and the community. We see you, we understand what you saw. We're not we're not uh uh professionals in that field, but we understand that, and we we're here for you. And it's it sucks for everybody that's involved in this.

SPEAKER_09 3:15:57

Yeah, Ryan uh said, we're gonna get fooled by AI videos too. No, and we're already there. I've been fooled by a couple. I'm like, what the fuck? And I go to the comments and they're like, AI, AI, AI. And I'm like, what? Oh shit.

SPEAKER_11 3:16:10

Yeah, I caught one the other day that was really good, and the only reason why I noticed it, it was the New York police badge was uh it didn't spell right.

SPEAKER_09 3:16:19

Yeah. Yep, it's funny. Some of the smallest details it'll everything else looks fucking solid. The one that I saw was like a dude sitting on his porch, and he does have a gun in his hand, and the cop just walks up nonchalant, and I'm like, holy shit, like he didn't say anything, and then the look, it was AI. I was like, Oh, okay, thank God. Because that didn't look good. Dude's on his own property just holding a gun and on his front porch, and they come up and light him up, but didn't look good, but it was fake.

SPEAKER_11 3:16:53

So um I've noticed in some of the properties, like if you go and try to download some of them now, they're actually uh there's a like a ghost mark in some of them that are showing that they were AM generated.

unknown 3:17:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_09 3:17:08

Um well boys, pretty good episode tonight. I think that paid off. I think that was fun.

SPEAKER_00 3:17:15

I think we do it a little bit more often now, maybe two times a year. You bet.

SPEAKER_09 3:17:19

Yeah, it was a it was a test, and y'all y'all made it work. Our mods kicked ass tonight. Thank you to our mods uh for screening everybody.

SPEAKER_11 3:17:28

Um I think they get a raise.

SPEAKER_09 3:17:29

Yeah, yeah, you definitely get a raise. Yeah, um, I'm going to double your salary to what we've got with Banning and Allen's. Thank you. Um, yeah, really appreciate it. Um got some cool things in the works for y'all. The DTV stuff is still taking off. Don't get me wrong, we're not done with that. I don't want you guys to think that we stopped. It's still in the works. It's just this is not a fast-moving machine. Um, lots of progress. It things have continuously gone forward and progressed. So I want you guys to know that. Um, but tonight was very fun. Uh, I had a lot of I had a lot of fun just bringing. I mean, the the chaplain thing was great. I didn't expect that to do as well as it did. Rogue Nation Audis blessed us with us, uh, his presence tonight. That was cool. Uh, Mr. Bill Fold jumped on, so maybe we can start making this more of a regular thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:18:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_09 3:18:23

And uh, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 3:18:25

Vaughn text me, he's gonna come back on in the near future. So there we go.

SPEAKER_09 3:18:29

So Vaughn's willing to jump on, and I like it. I think that's the way we start rolling with this, man. Just always leave it open to our community to jump on and say their piece when they want to say it. So, you know, and there's there's as long as it's within the criminal justice realm, guys, there's really nothing off the table.

unknown 3:18:48

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_09 3:18:50

Don't come on here with anything about my department if you know where I work, because that's not gonna happen to you assholes. Uh don't do that to me. Um, it's the one thing that is off limits. So, but I don't think anybody would do that, even if they did. I just we'll dismiss it. That's okay. Yeah, um, but no, it was fun the night. Was had a good time. So, all right, guys. Everybody, Sunday nights, 9 p.m. Eastern. That's the new time.

SPEAKER_00 3:19:17

Get the word out there, get people, new people that's never seen it, get them to come on. If they're like, oh my god, these are a whole bunch of cops doing an echo chamber, get them with a camera, get them with a mic, yeah. On the show, yep. That's what we're here for.

SPEAKER_09 3:19:30

Um, shout out to our sponsors, peregrine.io. Make sure you guys check those out. If you want to turn your crappiest detectives into Sherlock Holmes, highly recommend you guys go to them. They are doing a lot of things that I could explain it to you, but it's going to take forever because they do so many things. So that's mostly for law enforcement and DAs and uh anybody that has some sort of report management system. Um, peregrine. That's who you want. Uh Ghost Patch, make sure you guys check them out. That's where we get our custom patches from. So you can get ghostpatch.com or you can go to ghost patch ghost patch ghost patch customs patch. I can't say it. Ghostpatchcustoms.com if you want to get your own fancy ones made. It is the whiskey uh for sure. And then um, because I haven't been drinking any whiskey. So uh and then uh who am I missing? Ghost Patch Peregrine. Yeah, uh, make sure you guys check out Retro Rifle. I got mine on tonight. My Air Force shirt, right to bear arms is what uh Alan's wearing tonight. Uh make sure you guys check them out. And then finally, I don't I try to do it as limited as possible, guys. There's our there's our patch. Uh make sure if you like what we're doing, you like, subscribe, follow. I do my little team. Age girl spiel at the very end. Like, subscribe, follow. It's free. It takes 10 seconds. Please. We volunteer a lot of our time. Um, we answer a lot of tough questions. We pull you guys on here. We're trying to get some better gear for banning. As you could tell, his shit sucks. Um, and uh, if you would so bless us with some of your hard-earned cash, please make sure you go to the uh buy me a cup of coffee link or drop a super chat or you know hit the membership up. All of that helps us, all of it goes directly back into the show. It's not not turning around and buying a Rolls Royce, I promise y'all. So um, it does help out and it does push the mission further so we can do other things that we want to do. That's my spiel for tonight. Thank you for joining us. Banning, Alan. Thanks, guys. Everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 3:21:50

Appreciate it, y'all. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_09 3:21:52

Have a good night later.