An Italian Officer Explains Why De‑Escalation Feels Different In Europe And The U.S.

Veteran Italian officer Andrea Boggiatto, who now serves in Colorado pulls back the curtain on how culture, tools, and law shape policing on both sides of the Atlantic. From 400‑person academy classes and national public order units to mid-sized U.S. agencies built on names and faces, he walks us through the structural DNA that drives training, tactics, and trust.

We get specific about the moments that decide outcomes: radio traffic under stress, the tempo of dialogue, and the rungs between words and force. In Italy, many officers carry a baton and a sidearm but lack tasers, OC spray, and even consistent access to ballistic vests. That narrowed toolkit pushes decisions toward sharper edges. Contrast that with American emphasis on layered force options and “act like you’ve been there” comms—habits that slow the clock when seconds matter. He admits he had to rewire instinct, shifting from “one, two, ten” to a steadier climb where patience is a trained skill, not just a personality trait.

The legal terrain might be the starkest divide. He unpacks a Milan shooting involving a realistic replica and the intense scrutiny that followed, then lays out why Italian civilians face steep barriers to gun ownership and self-defense. Even victims who protect their families can be pulled into years of litigation. It’s a sobering counterpoint to the U.S. “home as castle” mindset and a reminder that legitimacy rests as much on courts as on streets. Through it all runs a simple idea: the badge is an amplifier. Good character, sound training, and clear policy make better outcomes; weak links get louder, faster.

If you care about practical reform—recruiting for temperament, building scenario-based judgment, tightening radio discipline, and giving officers lawful, effective options between baton and bullet—this conversation offers grounded, field-tested insight. Listen, share with a friend who has strong opinions about European vs. American policing, and leave a review with the one change you’d export across the Atlantic.

Peregrine.io: Turn your worst detectives into Sherlock Holmes, head to Peregrine.io tell them Two Cops One Donut sent you or direct message me and I'll get you directly connected and skip the salesmen.

Transcript

Disclaimers And Content Warning

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of two cops when donor, its host or affiliate. The podcast is intended for entertainment and informational purposes only, but we do not endorse any guests' opinions or actions discussed during the show. Any content provided by guests is of their own volition, and listeners are encouraged to form their own opinions. Furthermore, some content is graphic and has harsh language. Your discretion advised and is intended for mature audiences. Two cops when donut and its host do not accept any liability for statements or actions taken by guests. Thank you for listening. All right, welcome back to Cops One Donut. I'm your host, Eric Levine. I got with me my co-host and uh co-capitan banning sweatland. And along with him, we've got from overseas, uh Italy, to be specific. Uh Andrea. I can't say your last name. Mo Mahigen?

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Yeah, yeah, that's correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

He's being nice. His accent is awesome. He can pronounce it way better than I can. And uh he is actually in Colorado now, and where he is in law enforcement. So, Andrea, thank you so much for joining us, sir.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Thank you so much uh of uh of being here. I'm very honored to be here and talk with you a little bit and share some something.

Platform Ban And Streaming Updates

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Excellent, excellent. That's what I like to hear. Um, if you're watching, uh, we weren't on last week because we got banned from uh YouTube for a week. I accidentally posted a video where I blurred out the naked guy, but they still got upset about it, and they said we violated the community regulations, and they banned us for a week. Uh, I appealed it. I even talked to human beings and they just said it is what it is. And I said, well, all right, I guess I'll just take my time out. So we weren't on last week, that's why we were gone. And then we come back on today, and I see that there's all these new features with Restream, which is the program we use to put this out on all of our platforms. And as you can see, if you are on Instagram now and YouTube, we have the vertical option, which is awesome. So we're hoping to join our TikTok on here. Uh that's I'm gonna have to have Alan, which Alan, you can pop in, buddy. Say hello to everybody. Uh hopefully we can get Alan to um update our TikTok so we can get TikTok on here as well. What's up, buddy? Not much. How are you, buddy? Wonderful. Just uh good to be back, good to be back. I like it. You look refreshed. I like the uh retro rifle shirt you're sporting there. Super soaker.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Who didn't have a super soaker when they came out?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Right? Coincidentally, that was the nickname that uh all the women had for Alan in high school. Hey, I thought it was premature, but you know there goes another week. Yeah, and we're banging it. Oh, too funny. Sorry, Andrea. You got you don't you told me specifically not you have a nickname that you go by. What's your nickname?

SPEAKER_02 3:10

No, my nickname is actually is Megan. Uh oh, your last name. Okay, yeah. My last my last name is a little bit complicated to pronounce in English, but if you want, I can try it.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Yeah, let's just roll it.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

It's be careful, Bogato. Bojato, yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, hey, I can do that.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

We're live on Instagram.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

I yeah, it's a double D, so usually usually the pronounce um for you could be Bojato. No, but it's bociato. Yeah, boy.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

I like I can do that one because I'm thinking of Bo Jackson. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Yeah, I was a big baseball guy. So Bo Jackson. I like that. That's your new nickname for us. Yeah, we start calling you Bo Jackson.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Maybe I can think about that.

Nicknames And Light Banter

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Oh, Mr. Bilfold, dang, throwing shade. Alan couldn't hold his water. Um, so for those in the comments tonight, uh, if you are used to our newer format, when we have a guest on, this is basically our live podcast now. So when we have a special guest, we're just gonna it's gonna be all about um Bo Jackson tonight. So we're gonna have Bo Jackson tell us what uh being a cop was like one in Europe. His specialties were canine, uh public order, and we're gonna talk about the H factor. So we're gonna get into all of that. All of your questions and stuff we're going to save towards the end. Alan's job is to try to kind of filter some of those questions as you throw them out uh so we can come back to them later so you guys don't forget. Uh but if you are pro-law enforcement, if you're anti-law enforcement, this is the platform for you because we are not an echo chamber. If you have legitimate questions and you are really trying to make things better where you're at, don't feel like I already see one in the comments. Uh I'll give you a shout-out, palin. Uh what is that? Palindromanistic. I don't know how to say that. He's dropping an A cab. Hey, buddy, you're welcome to drop your A cab in here. We're not gonna kick you out. We just ask that you participate and try to make things better. Don't just complain. Uh, bring some solutions to the table. Uh, Mr. Bill Fold said Bo knows canines. It's awesome. I like it. Bojacto. Bojacto. I got it. I got it down. So that's perfect. Yeah, but facto. Uh yeah. We gotta talk with our hands tonight.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

No, no, no, no. I I explained to all of my co-worker this is a bad movement. You know, do you want to know the meaning of this?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

I I do.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Uh I it's a little bit uh bad words, but may I say something about that or is uh against policy? No, okay. This is the only meaning, is what the fuck. What the fuck? Yeah, that is the only meaning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

So what you're really saying, yeah, yeah, it's not yeah, yeah. I like it. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

When you say something you know, some portray, some stereotypes from uh Italian portray that said that oh, this is a good pasta. No, this is what just what the fuck. That's it. Nothing more than that.

Episode Plan And Audience Ground Rules

European Policing Focus Announced

Guest Background And Italian Career

SPEAKER_01 6:16

It's great. I can do it. My grandfather is from Italy. We mean uh Bo Jack Dosa we're talking about that earlier, and uh so I've got the I've got the blood in me, I've got the DNA, I got the the home turf rules work for me. So I can make some Italian stereotypes. But okay, let's get back to you, sir. Um, guys, in the stream tonight, everybody that's listening and paying attention, this is gonna be our chance to really explore European style policing. We we've never really been able to do that yet. We've been wanting to get some Aussie cops on here. Um, we've been wanting to get uh oh, what is that, Alan? So that is your secondary YouTube. Oh, so that's where it looked like that's what they're doing. I know we're trying to put it all together. What you yeah, okay, cool. Guys, we are exploring the new platform tonight with the new updates, so just bear with us. The content's still gonna be good, just the video made. We may be messing with things a little bit. It's all right, it's all learning. You guys get to learn with us. So, all right, let's jump into it. Bojacto, sir. First, give us your background and tell us a little bit about what got you into law enforcement.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Oh, so uh, yeah, I um came, of course, from Italy, and my accent is pretty evident about that, and my last name too. So when I uh joined the national police in Italy, I joined the national police in Italy in 2002, and uh was because it was my my call, you know, it was always my mission in life to be to be a cop, to be uh to serve my community. So I was at a young age, was 21st, and uh I joined the law enforcement in uh in the national police. The national police, of course, is uh nationwide police, so it's pretty different from you know the agency that we have here. And uh I remember the first academy, we were in uh 400 people, you know, to be trained and uh was pretty amazing. After that, I worked for 10 years in the national police with different specialities, uh work in the canine, uh in uh crowd control and hurry out brigade, we called the mobile brigade and patrol, of course, because one is one of the uh you know the most important steps to be to be a cop, of course. And after that, after 10 years, I decided to go forward and uh work with my own company and uh for the K9 specifically and uh the crowd control, and it was a pretty good uh opportunity because uh gave me the opportunity to travel around the world and work with different agencies from you know France, Spain, uh Portugal, Germany, uh, Holland, and mostly also in South America from Mexico, Guatemala, Brazil, and Argentina. And um when I when I came here in 2023, it was one of my best dreams to become a law enforcement officer here in the United States. And uh I don't know if you know that, but in Italy we all always dreamed to be in the United States, you know, the American dream. We still have this kind of uh idea of the American dream. And of course, being a police officer in Italy, one of my dreams was to become a law enforcement officer here in the United States. And uh when uh this opportunity comes out, I decided to jump in and um and became a law enforcement officer. Uh was pretty hard, you know, because you know it's it's even if there are multiple things that are pretty similar, there are also many things that are really different, you know. And uh was pretty challenging. It was pretty challenging, but I never gave up in my life. So I said, this is my dream, and I want to join again. And the reason why is the same reason that I when I jumped in the uh international police is to serve the community and my mission and life. And um I said, okay, I want to be American, I want to be a US citizen, and uh the the most important thing that I can do is to serve my community, my future community. So I decided to become you know a police officer. This is a briefly of uh of my story.

Italian Police Structure Explained

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Okay, so you become a cop in Italy. I want to go back to that. You said 400 people were in your academy.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Yeah, uh, we usually uh we have uh two more or less academy a year. Uh I don't know right now because it's uh uh from 2016 that I'm not in Italy because I lived in Spain for uh six years more or less before came here. And uh but yes, we have this kind of and uh we have different uh school in in Italy. So at the same time, we have I don't know, when I uh when I was there uh with the 400 people, we were in uh Trieste up north. At the same period, we have another two other uh schools in uh I don't remember the place, probably was one was in the center of Italy, one was in the south of Italy, more or less with other 300 or 200 people.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Okay, now in in your academy, police in Italy, is it like it is here in the States where you're a cop for your city, or is it a national policing where you're a cop for all of Italy?

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Uh it's a national police, so it's nationwide. So you have uh you can work in all of the country. Um so it's it's different in Italy. We have basically we have five different law enforcement agencies that is nationwide. We have the national police that is not it's is not military, but at the same time is military. You know, it's uh it's in in is it's not proper to say it's an is a military police, but is not still civil. Okay, and uh then we have the carabinieri, okay. The carabinieri is mostly known for for you know from uh Pinocchio Pinocchio, you know, the story of Pinocchio, okay. This is a military police. Then we have the Polizia Penitenciaria, this is another uh law enforcement agency that takes care only about correction, so um jail correction and whatever. And then we have another one that is from um we call the Guardia di Finanza, it's just for you know about taxes, about this kind of stuff. It's it's it's a it's a law enforcement specifically for this kind of reason. And the last one is for uh the environment, you know, like the ranger, more or less. Okay, the five law enforcement, and then we have a local police, okay, in different cities. So basically, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

So where do the local police get trained?

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Uh the local police is trained in the city.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Okay. Yeah, it's uh so it's basically how Colorado, where you're at now, has state police. So that would be like the Italy national police, and then they have city police.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Yeah, correct. Correct, correct.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Okay.

Comparing U.S. And Italy: Culture And Comms

SPEAKER_02 13:29

So yeah, it's pretty different. We have um uh it's pretty high the number of the law enforcement officer in Italy, because with this kind of law enforcement, also Italy is not huge, it's like more or less like Florida, for example. So uh yeah, we have uh a bunch of cops all around.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Now you've been a cop here, and um being a cop in Italy. What would you say the similar what's similar and what's very different in law enforcement for both sides?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

The similar I think is the sometimes the approach that we have in uh for the law enforcement. I mean uh the protection of the community, the sense of justice, the sense of you know, uh of the law and to protect the the people that are not able to protect themselves. So this is basically the same, you know. The the the mission, the the call probably is the same. Uh after that, uh I think there is huge differences because um uh of course the the also the approach of the people itself with the national police is different from here. I mean, uh in 10 years of career, I just found one person, just one, in 10 years of my service, that came to me and said, Thanks you, thanks for your service in 10 years of service. And uh so the approach of the law enforcement to the people is more like sometimes more rude than you know that I I found here, in which there are multiple people that came to the law enforcement officer say, Hey, thanks for your service. Okay, and uh from the law enforcement side, um being a national police is different because it's more unpersonal. I mean, it's more like you're just a number. And um, so for me, when I joined the the law enforcement agency that I work with, uh it's about 500 people, and from my point of view, it was a small agency. Uh and then I understood that it's not a small agency, it's a medium agency.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Right.

De‑Escalation Styles And Training Gaps

SPEAKER_02 15:38

So it's it's it's different, it's different for this reason, and of course, also the training is different, is uh uh from some specific ways more accurate here. Um, and also the engagement, of course, the policy is completely different, but and also small small things that this is this could be fun. Uh also the radio traffic. Okay, in Italy, with something happened, the radio traffic is like more emotional, you know. So so when when uh when you say you know there's a fighting, for example, oh hey, we have a fighting, I'm here, blah blah blah blah. So and a lot of bad words, of course. Right. And uh when I found here is more like polite. Um, yes, uh control. We have a fighting here, so you have to come here. That's more you know, clear, you know. Yep, so it's a pretty huge difference. And um, the last thing is that the de-escalation. The de-escalation is not just uh different, it's completely different.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Really? Uh yeah. How so? Is it is it better or worse?

SPEAKER_02 16:51

It's uh uh in Italy we you know the de-escalation is one to ten, maybe no? Okay, you say okay, we go from one to two to three to four. You know, it's a de-escalation or escalation. In Italy it's one, two, ten. Okay, it's more like you know, uh and uh so we start polite. Um then after that there is the you know the escalation from one, two, and ten directly. Um, usually. I don't know, probably it's for the hot blood that we have. I don't know, the fashion, I don't know, I have no idea about that, but yeah, it's pretty different. And uh was pretty challenging also for me about that because I remember one time that I go from one to eight immediately, and then I forgot I forgot to say, no, I'm no more in Italy right now, so I need to refocus myself. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

It's so so let's let's let's look at this a little bit on maybe how some people over here, folks over here that are watching. I believe everybody's probably seen the movie Taken. Uh what country was that portrayed in, if I remember right? Or what what city was that in? Do you remember Eric? Movie Taken.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Um I don't. I know what movie you're talking about, but I I can't remember where that is.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

And I thought it I thought it was in Italy. I think it's France, actually. Oh, was it France? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Uh take Taken was in France. Uh, we have a uh movie in Italy, uh, that was in Italy that is uh the from Denzel Washington. The last probably was the last one. Um, I don't remember the name. Um I don't remember no no no, it's the last one, it's the last the equalizer, and which they he he deal with uh with a local um um criminal organization and uh yeah and we have a portrait of uh one carabinere uh over there, uh but was not so you know quite similar to the reality, but yeah. Was fun, was a really I I love this kind of movie, but you know was for the movies that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

It's a Hollywood, yeah. Not so real. We know how much they dramaticize the ones that they make on American law enforcement. I'm just curious, it's probably the exact same overseas.

Media Portrayals Versus Reality

Force Options And Firearms In Italy

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Yeah, yeah. So I I do I do a segment um with our social media platforms of oh, so you think cops do it better in other countries? Because one of the things that we'll get a lot is, you know, well, you need to you should do policing like they do in Europe. You should do because they don't have to carry guns and they don't shoot people and da da da da and so that wasn't necessarily the reason we were doing it. The reason we were really showing these police and their really bad interactions overseas was because people from those communities, especially Brazil, were sharing videos where they said our police are a little out of control and we need they wanted exposure, they wanted help getting their stuff out there, and they thought if an American cop was showing their stuff, maybe would uh people would take it a little more serious to help them uh get some help and get their police to kind of change their training and tactics, just kind of like what you're talking about, how the de-escalation is a little different here than it is over there, where it can go from one, two to ten pretty quickly over there, which makes sense if they're on the radio and they're sounding panicky just over a fight uh versus here where we've kind of trained our guys to like act like you've been there before, get clear, concise communication over the radio, and don't put any fluff over the radio. So I guess the point that I'm trying to get to is for policing in Italy, can we talk about the carrying of a gun and how you guys look at deadly force and the use of force over there compared to how you see it here in the States?

SPEAKER_02 20:57

First of all, Erica, I can tell you that sometimes uh, you know, I think United States is a really big country, so uh sometimes you feel I mean, my feeling to be here is like seems to be that all around the world is United States, you know, because it's so huge, so big. So uh, but I think that uh uh here are something that is not some sometimes I say to some some other friends that I have here, I don't I you don't understand how lucky you are to be here sometimes, and uh of course every country has its own bad things and good things, of course, like all the countries around the world. Um the thing is that uh Italy, for example, you know, we only understand one thing. I think is all law enforcement in the world, you know, from Mexico, from United States, um, you know, Spain, um Germany, Holland, whatever. Uh the uniform for me, this is my opinion. Uniform for me is just an amplifier of the people. I mean, if you are an asshole, probably with a with a uniform, you are a big asshole. You know, if you are a good person, probably you are much better good person with a uniform. It's just an amplifier. You know, the badge for me is just an amplifier.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

You know, that's a unique way to look at it. I've never thought of it like that. I like that.

Civilian Gun Laws And Self‑Defense Limits

SPEAKER_02 22:19

I mean, this is my my point for whether looking for you know a different agency all around the world that you know um is not the the the uniform that makes men, but is the man that makes a uniform, it's always different, you know. Right. Um in Italy. In Italy, we have a lot of problems about I don't know if you say um it's correct to say politically correct, but I mean the problem is that sometimes we have this this kind of problem where we want the law enforcement that protects us, but we always question about the use of force. It's if it's true that we come from you know one, two, ten, at the same way the deadly force or the force itself is really, really hard to use in Italy. Even if you know, I I can I can tell you something that happened two weeks ago, more or less, was uh in Milan uh during an operation about I don't remember what kind of operation, but was in a uh park during the night and was uh pursuit on on foot with uh with uh with uh with uh one police officer and one that was uh the bad guy. This bad guy um tried to you to to grab his own handgun. Okay, it was not a handgun, was a fake handgun. But and the police officer responds with a shot fire, and uh, you know, it was a deadly force in this case because the the bad guy uh was was down, and uh there was a huge problem in Italy about that because uh for the public view you have to understand okay, this is a this is a toy or is it a real gun? And uh, you know, the defense is correct for the offense, but we already know that with someone, you know, take a gun and you have it's it's very hard to understand if it's a toy, even if it's a real good, you know, uh replica, to understand if it's a real gun is not a real gun. So it's a huge problem in this case. It's a huge problem because you know, uh uh we we had a gun, we have a gun, of course. But sometimes we say that uh should be better to don't have a gun because to use a gun is worse than sometimes you know than to don't have a gun. So it's very it's very hard. It's a very complicated um situation in Italy right now.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

So they do carry firearms.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Okay, yeah, so it's very complicated for this this kind of reason. So you we usually, for example, in this case of one, two, ten, like I told you, that we are in an escalation, but it's more verbal or physical escalation. Okay, yeah, we don't have, for example, this is probably a surprise for you, probably. We don't have taser, we don't have pepper spry, we don't have either bulletproof vest. What I never worked in 10 years of my career with a bulletproof vest.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Okay, now what are the odds? Now, you know, obviously, the United States, the culture is surrounded by firearms. That's how our country was founded. Um, which I love it, I'm a big supporter of it. I I'm not gonna pretend to know much about Italy, other than the Beretta. Uh, like, how is it for citizens to get a gun? Is it easy for them? Hard?

SPEAKER_02 25:56

It's very hard.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Very hard.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Uh, yeah, very hard. Um every kind of weapon is very hard. Uh Spain is even worse. Uh I'll tell you something about Italy than uh uh the worst part from Spain. In Italy it's very hard. It's very hard to have a gun, to have a permit for the gun. And usually the only one that have this kind of permit to uh to carry a concealed carry weapon, for example, is just people that have you know some question about his own safety. So you have to show to the authority, to law enforcement that you are in danger to have to carry a gun.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

So if you're okay, so you can get you can get permission from the government to have a gun because you have some sort of credible threat.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Yeah. If not, forget it.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

So what you're telling me is the rich people can all get guns because they know somebody. Right?

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Not not really, seems to be, but not really.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

No, okay. No, okay, so the the the corruption's not there.

Bureaucracy, Reform, And Evolution

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Yeah, so uh it's like no, no, that we have a lot of corruption, yes. Not for this reason, not for that reason, okay. No, not for that reason. So we have uh we have this kind of problem that we cannot protect. I mean, not like law enforcement. Imagine that right now, I'm not law enforcement, I'm just a normal citizen in Italy. It's very hard to protect myself and my family. Because you know, the the the law said that if someone gets into your house, you have to ask him to go away from your house, but you are not allowed to use physical force, you know. In Italy? Yeah, you have to you have just have to call the police. But the problem is that manwai, you know, from the action to to call the police is like you know, if you have time to call the police. So it's pretty um it's it's a nonsense. It's really a nonsense. It's something that I'm not really proud of, my country of that.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

We've all got things we're not proud of, uh for sure. Um, but it's it's important for us to have the discussion to understand like the differences, and it's very unique to get somebody that not only was a cop for a good amount of years in another country, but you were a cop in multiple countries.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

And then uh I worked with the agency. Um, I mean, inside the law enforcement, I just work at the international police and right now in uh in the law enforcement here. Uh, but I have the chance to work with the law enforcement of different agency, uh, not involved in uh in uh day by day, of course. Um works. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Fair, fair. So but you have a very unique perspective that I don't have. I can only you know Google research and and use groc and the other AI things to ask questions and try to figure this stuff out. But for somebody that's actually been there and been involved with it, like that is a very cool perspective to get. And uh I think people in the comments are gonna really be able to ask a lot of cool questions when we get to that part. Um but for me, uh you know, one of the big things is do the cops carry guns? You said yes. So that's that's interesting. But you're carrying guns and have no other level of force option on your your belt. No taser, no pepper spray, just a baton. A baton. So you can either hit him with a stick or shoot him with a bullet.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

That's it. Yeah. Um have you taken what you've learned from here and tried to implement some of this back home?

The Cost Of Self‑Defense In Italy

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Uh you mean from here to Italy? Or yeah. Um, I was more or less. I mean, uh, I mean, I try to uh I've been contact with a lot of good instructors in Italy that are still in the national police. So I try to give some perspective, uh, more the on the people, you know, I think the best assets of every kind of business, you know, from you know, per you know, the business outside law enforcement and in law enforcement, the the the most important asset is the person, of course. And um so I try to give some different perspective to give some idea, and um, but it's very hard. You know, uh when you have a national police with so many people and one head that is in Rome that makes all the decisions, it's very hard. You know, the bureaucracy is very hard. So I think that's something that has to change, of course, 100%. Uh I don't believe in uh in uh the you know, I think usually sometimes we take with we we talk about you know the structure, the system, but the system is created from people. So we need to manage this kind of situation, and we are for good reason, we are human beings, and human beings is evolving every time. So we need to evolve in this case, and the law enforcement needs to evolve too, um, and uh to understand from this different perspective. So sometimes we are stuck in uh in the 80s or in the 90s with the mentality of the 90s, but we are not living in the 90s right now, as we are living in 2026, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

So, okay, I've got kind of two things that I'm thinking after having that discussion. Now imagine somebody's breaking into my house and I call y'all, but like I gotta I gotta go hands-on with this person, like they're they're coming in towards me and my my kids or whatever, and I either use a baseball bat or whatever. I obviously the odds of me having a gun are gonna be really low. So I use a weapon and and defend. Like, how does that go for that person?

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Uh very bad. Uh, usually very bad. Usually yeah, very bad. I mean, um it's it's I mean, I have I I tell you my idea. My idea is to have, I prefer to have a really bad bad judgment rather than a good funeral. This is my point.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Uh at the same way, you have to be prepared to face a really long-term judgment, a really long-term investigation that is not um is not, you know, you're you're not, you cannot say I'm sure to be successful in this kind of judgment, in this kind of investigation. Even if I have all of my right to protect my family, myself, my family, whatever. Yeah, and I've done everything because he was, you know, the bad guy that puts me my hands on, so I need to protect myself and my family. Yeah, even if even if it's completely right, you have to face maybe 10 to 15 to 20 years of judgment with a lot of you know investment about money and reputation, and uh I I watched a lot of family uh that within this kind of situation, her their life was were completely destroyed for that completely destroyed. Just for being a victim, just from being a victim, a victim, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Oh now, how do you wrestle with that? How do you wrestle with that being now that you're an American cop, like you know the difference between how we look at things here, where our home is our castle, like that is a sacred land for us, and and all rules are pretty much off. Like, yeah, I get to protect my home uh more than anything else. So how do you how it had to be very hard for you? It had to be hard for you. Like I I know that's a very rare instance. I doubt that happens all the time, but I couldn't imagine being a cop and having to look a homeowner in the eye that was trying to defend his family and being like, I gotta arrest you. How do you how do you wrestle with that being over here now because you realize it's totally different?

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Uh I want to be completely um transparent with you, honest with you. This is