Square Peg Round Whole
Square Peg Round Whole
The Next Frontier: Square Peg Employment, with The Neurodivergent Coach Samantha Nuttall
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Samantha Nuttall is The Neurodivergent Coach and she talks to Lou about life as a neurodivergent mum to two neurodivergent sons and the interesting lightbulb moment she had that led her to develop her business as The Neurodivergent Coach. Sam is passionate about helping neurodivergent people to overcome disability discrimination barriers with employment. She's on a mission to change the life and employment outcomes for all Neurodivergent individuals, at an individual, organisational and systemic level. Music to Lou's ears! They get "fired up" as they chat and put the wrongs to right. An energetic discussion that really will give listeners food for thought.
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Twitter: @PegWhole
Website: www.squarepegroundwhole.com.au
Resources discussed during this episode:
The Neurodivergent Coach website: https://www.theneurodivergentcoach.org/
I have just launched a page specifically for parents, teens and young adults https://www.theneurodivergentcoach.org/neurodivergent-teen-and-parent-workshop
Facebook www.facebook.com/theneurodivergentcoach
Instagram Samantha_a_nuttall or the_neurodivergent_coach
Links to some of the organisations I mentioned:
Neurodiversity Academy
https://www.neurodiversityacademy.com/
Neurodiversity Media
https://www.neurodiversitymedia.com
Saved – Charity
Relevant research papers (some from the UK but just as relevant here)
The research talking to the active discrimination that occurs towards neurodivergent job seekers
https://www.institutelm.com/resourceLibrary/workplace-neurodiversity-the-power-of-difference.html
Deloitte paper talking about the impact of ADHD on participation in thw workforce
https://www2.deloitte.com/au/en/pages/economics/articles/social-economic-costs-adhd-Australia.html
Facts and Stats about Neurodivergent employment in Australia
https://www.neurodiversitymedia.com/neurodiversity-employment-statistics
Autism specific paper regarding employment in Australia
Excellent research from AMAZE regarding employment for Autistic people.
| Timestamp Speaker Transcript | | | | | | |
| 00:58.42 louisekuchel Welcome to the podcast Samantha Nuttall Yay She's here How long has it taken us to get to this point I can't believe oh yeah | I've known you for a while. Yeah. | | | | | |
| 01:00.43 Sam Like care. Yay. | | | | | | | |
| 01:08.42 Sam A while I don't I think we we probably started talking a couple of years ago I reckon on online on Facebook in the um | yeah in the advocacy spaces. So yeah | it's just very exciting that you're doing this. | | | |
| 01:17.90 louisekuchel Yes | yeah | oh thank you so much. Well I'm always excited about it and very excited to talk to you today because I've seen and actually read out 1 of your comments on 1 of the episodes that I know if you noticed that recently.
| 01:30.98 Sam Yeah I did I did I did I was like Yay when I was making the dinner that was me. | |
| 01:35.63 louisekuchel But well your comments are really valuable and um | helpful. So that's why I was thinking? Yes | let's get her on the podcast because she's got lots to share with everybody. So that's what it's all about we're helping each other aren't we So yes | well we want to hear you so. | | | | |
| 01:39.38 Sam Nick. | | | | | | | | |
| 01:47.52 Sam Yeah | a lot Always a lot to say. | | | | | | |
| 01:55.31 louisekuchel But before we get stuck into the meaty stuff. Let's start with our fun questions. Little warm-up questions. Um Samantha shall I call you Samantha or shall I call you sam.
| 02:05.45 Sam You can call me Sam we think we're pasta I'm actually married to a Sam well we had this conversation the other day when she thought hello I'm married to a Sam so generally does do well to start with the samantha so that we all know which Sam we're talking to. But now now you know that I mean then we can make this.
| 02:16.66 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah | yay in your mind. And yeah | okay | all right? Well I'll so I'll dodge between the 2 Um | so samantha when this pandemic is over this wonderful Covid Pandemic is over and we can travel again. Where do you want to go and why.
| 02:24.41 Sam But with the formality. | | | | | | |
| 02:29.34 Sam You? um. | | | | | | | |
| 02:37.15 Sam Can you imagine? Um well I think what are we now week thirteen in Sydney I'm on the South coast just a little bit south of sydney but we're still in the same lockdown. So so many places oh my goodness I mean just to.
| 02:45.81 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | | |
| 02:55.80 Sam Sydney to be able to see my friends in Sydney would be a great start. You know | um exactly um I think I mean the big 1 for us is we are a first generation australian family. So both me and my husband are from the uk we have no other family here apart from kind of.
| 02:56.85 louisekuchel Um | we might even be able to meet 1 day that would be nice. | | | |
| 03:15.21 Sam Distant cousins. So um | we have nieces and nephews and brothers and sisters and parents obviously that we haven't seen for a really long time now and you know nieces and nephews that we haven't even met. So um I am very much looking forward to being able to go home fingers crossed next. European summer yup so it makes me a bit when I think about it. So yeah | I'm very much looking forward to that other than that like really do with a holiday somewhere anywhere really just coming out of the house without the children would be nice at the pipe I'll take anything.
| 03:35.49 louisekuchel Right? right? I know. | | | | | |
| 03:45.34 louisekuchel Ah I don't think any of us are that Farsi. So I do look forward to those moments and find excuses you know because it is so nice just to sit in the car on your own. It's sad | but true. Oh did you? yeah. | | | | | | |
| 03:59.73 Sam Oh absolutely | we actually turn 1 of our cars into a traveling office was a I feel like it's 1 of the best adh d kind of problem solving hacks I've come up with recently? Yeah | no | the Suv is now the traveling office just go and sit in that do you work with you wi-fi.
| 04:09.40 louisekuchel oh oh oh how interesting oh you have to tell us more about that that sounds interesting. Maybe I'll have to adopt that 1 okay Sam and so.
| 04:19.45 Sam Yeah | and it's a good 1 anyway. | | | | | | |
| 04:25.84 louisekuchel If you could have a superpower. What would it be and why. | | |
| 04:28.74 Sam Well I mean I think the whole superpower neuro divergence thing. Um I I think um I feel like in some ways I do have superpowers obviously they come at they can come at a bit of a cost. But um. If I'm being sensible about it I'd probably wave my magic wander make everybody else understand about Neurodiversity I think um | yeah yeah I mean get on board with the paradigm that would be my superpower just spray the magic wand and yeah.
| 04:51.23 louisekuchel Um | a lot of people say that 1 you know they do they say they want to be they want people to understand. Yeah.
| 05:06.57 Sam Move everybody into the same place. Be amazing. | | | |
| 05:06.90 louisekuchel Yep | well | you've picked a very common 1 and it's there. It's a common choice for a reason because we all want it. So yeah | yeah | that's right. | | | | |
| 05:14.25 Sam Yeah | exactly because yeah I mean everything else would do don't need any other superpowers that would be enough. So yeah.
| 05:22.98 louisekuchel And what is your connection to the actual concept of the square peg trying to fit into the round hole.
| 05:27.93 Sam That made me chuckle that 1 so I was kind of like well I don't think there's any bit of my life that isn't like all paths lead to neurodiversity at the moment so you know | um | we'll talk about this obviously but you know I'm no divergen I've got neuro divergent kids family whole family.
| 05:38.36 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 05:47.88 Sam Um I ah work and have been working in disability advocacy for a couple of years and I guess decided to kind of specialize use my skills to try and further that cause a little bit more so it's.
| 06:02.56 louisekuchel So yeah | yeah | well | it's me too. Yeah | you just find yourself doing it. Yes | oh that's good. Yeah yeah I agree that's how I feel too and you do just find yourself here.
| 06:04.76 Sam Like everything I'm doing living and breathing is all around that stuff now. So yeah | yeah | well yeah | it feels. It's meaningful. It's purposeful. It's um | you know energizing. So yeah | yeah. | | | | |
| 06:22.60 louisekuchel And I want to know more about specifically why because you know there is a reason behind why you why? you're specifically called the Neuro divergent coach for a start. So so let's expand on that. Yeah | that's right? um. | | | | | | | |
| 06:26.12 Sam Um | yeah. Yeah | exactly yeah because I am who would diverge. It. | | | |
| 06:39.27 louisekuchel So let's expand on that a little bit further. Can you tell us a little bit more about your background. You've said you're from overseas and can hear your accent. Um | you know your life growing up and what led to this specific Square Peg round hole related job.
| 06:45.16 Sam And. | | | | | | | | |
| 06:51.85 Sam Yep | absolutely so I guess um so I mean life going up. Yep I'm from the uk um I have I'm the oldest of four children I've got a brother and 2 sisters. Um | and. I went to I'm trying to think I went to I went to selective high school public high school like I was I did all right at school. Um | academically I did all right school was very Naughty. Um I um I have I found school mainly very easy and so.
| 07:19.00 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 07:29.15 Sam I was the 1 who would kind of the I would drive the teachers a little bit potty because I would get all the work done. But then I would be very distracting so I wasn't I wasn't my adhd didn't hold me back academically.
| 07:35.40 louisekuchel Um. | | | | | | | |
| 07:45.42 Sam In a lot of ways it did in terms of disorganization and chaos and I've forgotten the textbook or the pen or whatever it is I always felt like how I remember getting ready for gym and things like that like we'd have to get changed and it's like how is everybody on the metball court already and like haven many would take my shoes off yet.
| 07:57.49 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 08:04.93 Sam So yeah | just chaos all the time. But um | yeah I did I did well in my a levels went to University again Chaos Very um | you know some grades amazing some grades absolutely terrible. But I always kind of got through and um | you know I Yeah I always felt. There was that there was some reason why some everything was difficult and I couldn't really understand what that was but you know Neurodiversity Ne Divergence Adhd Autism not on the radar in the slightest I guess in terms of wine part I'm quite old. You know I'm I'm um | forty mid forty s Now. So. | | |
| 08:26.76 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 08:41.80 louisekuchel You do know I'm fifty anyway | yeah | no | that's right? So when were you diagnosed 80 h d oh okay | not long ago. | | | | |
| 08:42.88 Sam You know back in the seventy s eighty s ninety s these things just weren't thought about were they you know Um | we just just wasn't on the Radar. So um | yeah for me 4 years ago so I was diagnosing 2017 I think it was yeah um | and. We'll obviously talk about the family a little bit more in a minute but I was a very stereotypical like diagnose Mom. So um | the kids went first and then through the research that I did for them I was like oh it's is very interesting. So I think I read an article about girls at. Cool and that was what the trigger was for me I just thought oh my goodness that's me | um | and so yep | it's so important I think I read stats recently and love stats. You'll probably find out missing. But.
| 09:23.14 louisekuchel Yeah | it's really being covered in the media now that isn't it and it's a really? Yes | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 09:39.61 Sam Um | it's ninety percent of Adhd adults in Australia are undiagnosed. Yeah. | | |
| 09:45.70 louisekuchel Yeah | right? Yeah | still very undiagnosed | but it's it's definitely I'm hearing a lot more stories like on podcasts but also like in the general media. There's been an insight program. Not that long ago and um | yeah | it's being covered a lot more and. | |
| 09:57.70 Sam Boom. It definitely is yeah no I I agree I And yeah I think it's very interesting I remember I went to see the early childhood nurses not coping and I look back on that now and I think Wow that was very much about undiagnosed adhd.
| 10:04.23 louisekuchel Coming to the forefront more than it. It was say even 4 years ago not long ago. Yeah.
| 10:19.27 louisekuchel So well as a mom you mean as a mom. So yeah. | | | |
| 10:20.78 Sam And no it wasn't even a pardon as a mum. Yeah yeah | and it wasn't even on the rate you know it wasn't even something that was thought about screen for I Think there's a lot more that we could be doing in that in that space to support women in particular and even just to get it on the table as a discussion you know in that in that.
| 10:28.72 louisekuchel Yes | in. Um | yeah | there's definitely trigger times. | | | |
| 10:40.71 Sam Base. but um but yeah so very stereotypical story. Um | yes so diagnosed at forty forty 1 and to be honest with you. Um I was thrilled in a lot of ways you know it kind of just all for me. It just completely made sense like.
| 10:54.77 louisekuchel Yeah | a relief. Yes. | | | | | | | |
| 11:00.48 Sam Every story that I told the psychiatrist they were like oh yes | Yes | definitely you know like this would make complete sense and um so it was very validating I think um because I I do think if you are in that position as late diagnosed you carry around a lot of um.
| 11:03.90 louisekuchel Um | yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 11:20.29 Sam Internal conversation about being rubbish. That's the only explanation that you can think ah of as to why everything is so tricky. Um | yeah | so for me | it was just very yeah | very validating freeing I guess to know that actually there was stuff.
| 11:22.82 louisekuchel In. Okay | yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 11:37.90 louisekuchel A reason? Yeah | yeah | yeah | well yeah | well that that makes sense and this as you briefly mentioned before came about because of your family can you tell us you know I believe at least 1 of your kids is neurodivergent. Can you tell us about them and.
| 11:39.59 Sam Going on behind the scenes that yeah meant that was the case. Um. | | |
| 11:49.99 Sam I. | | | | | | | | |
| 11:57.74 louisekuchel What makes them so special and what are their unique strengths. | |
| 11:59.45 Sam Yeah | so um I want to be careful because my boys are quite little so they're probably too little to kind of give informed consent about what I'm talking about. But so I'll talk in vatons. But yes | both my kids are diagnosed multiple diagnoses. Um | they. | | | | | | |
| 12:09.99 louisekuchel Yeah | fair enough. | | | | | | | |
| 12:19.36 Sam We're both. They're 2 almost 2 years apart twenty two months apart you see that's ingrained in the memory can't twenty two months apart and and um both diagnosed under the age of 3 So um | yeah I guess we just kind of felt. | | | | | |
| 12:23.34 louisekuchel Yes I know that feeling I can count the month okay | | |
| 12:38.85 Sam Like we could just see the differences between them and other kids quite early. So um | the my yeah | the first my first child was probably more of a surprise to us. But the second one you know I guess we had the the filter on and the the eyes out looking for it a little bit more. So.
| 12:51.41 louisekuchel Oh okay | yeah yeah | what sort of things were were happening what sort of things did you notice. |
| 12:58.26 Sam Um | it wasn't so much of a surprise. Um I mean both very different in presentation I guess so first um | so 1 of them. It was more driven by preschool so more that ah | soon as. We were in that environment without a um | you know | Trusted caretaker I guess that there was this big dysregulation and and that that was quite obvious. Um | and yeah | just things like language there was language delays.
| 13:34.15 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 13:36.11 Sam Um | interestingly Lou and I know you've done it. You've done a podcast on this both. My kids are actually well 1 of them is definitely 2 E and the other 1 we we need to get to sit down for long enough to do the testing but probably probably is we. We'll See. Um yes. So yeah | that's another complication you know on top of all the other things as well. Um | because to me kids are yeah and you know you're never really sure is it the content of what you're trying to teach them that is the problem or you know or the or the Adhd or what is it that that is um.
| 13:54.42 louisekuchel Yeah | but again an emerging area where we're We're starting to learn and understand more.. Yeah yeah | well. Yes. | | | | | | |
| 14:12.16 louisekuchel Making it harder. | | | | | | |
| 14:13.70 Sam You know | not interesting. So yeah | it's it is um | it's complex. But yeah | they're they're amazing. They're very bright. Um | you know | very sociable. Um | both at um. Mainstream school and big advocate as you know for Mainstream education despite the challenges. So um | yeah | what their strengths are they're hilarious. Yeah | they love I mean they love lego and all the normal all the things that that boys their age. Love lego minecraft.
| 14:34.58 louisekuchel Yep | good on you I bet they are. | | | | | | |
| 14:45.87 louisekuchel They love the beach too. Don't they they love outdoors. Yeah. | |
| 14:47.30 Sam All those kind of things. Oh yeah | absolutely yeah | so we live on the South coast we live I mean the beaches raise it that way you know over the other side of the road. So they're very lucky they live down there and we've got we got a covid puppy last year so she yeah.
| 14:55.70 louisekuchel Um | oh not far from your house. | | | | | | |
| 15:06.32 Sam Spends a lot of time down there with them as well. | | | |
| 15:06.82 louisekuchel So many people did that? Yeah and I know what you mean when you when you've got nice weather and and you live near the coast or in a nice place. You're very lucky with everything that's been going on how have they been during the covid.
| 15:17.61 Sam Yeah | Mr. | | | | | | | | |
| 15:22.97 louisekuchel Kind of lockdowns and home-based learning. | | | |
| 16:40.41 louisekuchel Yeah. Yeah | Okay I'll ask you again? Yeah now that's fine. That's fine. Are you ready? you ready? Okay | so and how have that actually coped with the Covid home-based learning situation that's quite a relevant question for us to be asking at the moment.
| 16:59.60 Sam Oh my goodness? Yes | okay I think well very I mean they're both very different I think 1 is very very sociable and really love school because of that social side and so. That is a struggle that has been a struggle both on both occasions but I would say for us this year's been better than last year maybe we're just all in the zone now we've given up I think on you know | anything other than Covid. Um | yeah | we've definitely lowered our ex. | | |
| 17:23.44 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 17:29.38 louisekuchel Yeah | you do you get used to it. Don't you? Yeah yes. | | | | |
| 17:36.10 Sam Expectations I mean I think that's a big thing we um | we're not | we're um | we're not. We're not fully embedded the Ross Green approach yet. Um here. But um I know you've already spoken about on the podcast before but um | you know we we try at least in terms of the dropping of the expectations bit and so that's that's helped we kind of.
| 17:50.63 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | |
| 17:55.40 Sam Tend to finish homeschool off 11 I would say it's probably more a case of how the parents going without really being able to work. Um at all that's probably a biggest a bigger issue to be kids are having a great time you know and our our 2 abs is calling off. They go.
| 17:56.67 louisekuchel Yeah | if. Um | yeah | oh it's it's like nothing else. Um | yeah | yeah. Well and ah yeah I mean you you obviously allow the school you work well with the school in order to make that adjustment to get through This is that the case. Yeah yeah.
| 18:13.99 Sam Um. | | | | | | | | |
| 18:20.51 Sam Yeah | yeah | oh yeah | absolutely Absolutely We have a we have a very strong working relationship with our school. Um | yeah | absolutely I think we're very very lucky. Um we did choose this school. Um | you know I I do think. | |
| 18:29.81 louisekuchel That's good. | | | | | | |
| 18:39.99 Sam We were lucky on the basis that we were able to move but we did decide to move to this particular location because of the school. Um | yeah | yeah | so our school is very small. There's only 60 kits. Um. | |
| 18:46.13 louisekuchel Oh real geographical location. Yeah | right. | | | | | | | | |
| 18:57.61 Sam So only 3 classes composite classes. Um | and I guess the reason for me why that came about is I looked at those bigger schools. There's a lot of schools in our area that have you know 3 four classes per year which is quite standard but I just looked at.
| 18:58.17 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 19:16.67 Sam All those kids in the playground and I thought there's just no way on this planet. My kids are gonna be able to do even just do that. Um | and so I guess we were quite lucky on the basis that we had such early diagnoses because we'd already got that awareness you know | 2 and a half years before school even started. | | | |
| 19:20.55 louisekuchel A a. | | | | | | | |
| 19:34.10 louisekuchel Um | think I think that can be the good. The good side of actually knowing or having a pretty good knowledge of what is happening for your kids and really understanding your your kids and.
| 19:35.92 Sam Um | and ah | you know we board? yeah. | | | | | |
| 19:45.86 Sam Yet. Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 19:50.92 louisekuchel Needs whereas some other parents like I'm 1 of the other group that just didn't know and there was just all these question marks all the time and denial and going down rabbit holes where you can't yeah yeah.
| 19:54.89 Sam Yeah | yeah | yeah | oh the denial is so big. You know the denial is massive. You know | even on our second diagnosis when it you know | but there really shouldn't have been a question. We still got pushback to say no no | it's all fine. | | |
| 20:11.93 louisekuchel Oh wow. | | | | | | |
| 20:14.00 Sam Probably just copying the other 1 and I was like I just know that that's not the case. So then yeah | ah it definitely wasn't the case when we got back the diagnosis so you know it's you've got to just I think you've just got to trust yourself and say no | you know do the screening and if I'm wrong I'm wrong. | | |
| 20:17.58 louisekuchel Oh it's just the. | | | | | | |
| 20:23.13 louisekuchel Yeah | so you were right? Yeah | yeah | yeah | yeah | and well I'm really glad that you've got the school where you feel the kids do well um | is there anything else about um in the schools can be such a rigid.
| 20:36.76 Sam Um | yeah I yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 20:42.16 louisekuchel Place a rigid round hole for a square peg is there any other kind of environmental changes that you've had to you know that we could all learn from that have helped your boys are they boys.
| 20:51.32 Sam Ah | so I think so 1 of our 1 of us children had a very smooth transition to school surprisingly smooth like we were expecting you know | um | it to be very very tricky but turns out that he is a very big masker and so at school they have not. There was not those issues coming out we we were until we put some more things in place to stop it that first year of school. We probably suffering quite a lot at home as a result of them asking. But you know he did integrate into school really? well.
| 21:25.47 louisekuchel So can you explain the masking Can you explain what that is. | |
| 21:30.40 Sam Yeah | so that would be as an example | if something was too noisy just staying in the environment anyway and pushing through the situation rather than telling anybody that there was a problem or.
| 21:43.90 louisekuchel And built in the does anxiety build up when that happens raw. | |
| 21:47.60 Sam Um | yay | Exactly so anxiety would build up and he but this particular child would just keep all of that inside until literally see you across the playground like I'd be like oh no like.
| 22:00.22 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | | |
| 22:03.25 Sam To the habits of taking this work too really well taking chocolate Biscuts with me and I just kind of throw them towards that child. You know as a kind of bribe to just get him to um | be calm. Well no | it wasn't really a bribe just to give him some sugar I do find low blood sugar can be a bit of a factor in that in that situation. So.
| 22:05.35 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah | yeah. To the car. Yeah | so. | | | | | | |
| 22:22.63 Sam Get something yummy inside and then just soothe for you know | half an hour and then we'll probably be okay | but um | yeah | so yeah. | | | | | |
| 22:22.91 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 22:32.69 louisekuchel That's a great strategy. There's nothing wrong with that. It's how what worked for you? Yeah yep.
| 22:37.14 Sam Well I think again | it's about lowering expectations isn't It's kind of like you just had to have to accept that that is the scenario you're dealing with what can you do to support them. Um | yeah as I say but I don't feel like we're quite at the place where everybody's communication skills is ah ready for that full.
| 22:48.10 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | | |
| 22:54.64 Sam Well screen collaborative problem solving approach. Um | so we're getting more towards that stage. But they're quite young | really intensive that approach. Yeah | so yeah | much more of the kind of what can we do to regulate Youth scenario. Um.
| 22:55.72 louisekuchel In. | | | | | | | |
| 23:02.30 louisekuchel They're still little. Yeah yeah. So. | | | | |
| 23:11.44 Sam Found over time that has waned So I think that for anybody who is going through that really big problem with masking and Kindy we did find that with the you know as time has gone on that has got better. They've been able to build more of a relationship.
| 23:24.91 louisekuchel Okay. | | | | | | | |
| 23:30.20 Sam With the teachers where they can talk about things that might not be working so well for them. Um | yeah | so there's that more of that trusted relationship I guess from their perspective. So. |
| 23:35.17 louisekuchel Okay | yeah | and and does the school right? Yeah yes | a trusted relationship but what? what do the teachers do because it can't be all surely not the child's responsibility.
| 23:51.76 Sam No yeah | so for that particular child. The teacher is just great at noticing the unsaid I guess and having a chat about it just happened they they do. They do do cps.
| 23:53.73 louisekuchel Do the teachers look for anything in particular with your kids that help them. |
| 24:04.80 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 24:10.92 Sam Ah | in ah in I know they're not doing it officially but they they certainly are having those same kind of conversations so they might I don't know problem solve talking too much in class or you know | whatever it it might be but it's always done in a really respectful way and lots of iterations and.
| 24:23.43 louisekuchel Yep | okay. | | | | | | | | |
| 24:30.41 Sam You know finding a solution together. So that's been amazing and I think yeah as I say because that trust been has been built. We're not getting that coke bottle shaken up coming home. Um experience which it's it's a tricky 1 to deal with with school because then they don't see the after effects of what's going on.
| 24:31.52 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | | |
| 24:40.33 louisekuchel As much. Yeah | um. | | | | | | | | |
| 24:49.78 Sam And they have this little angel in the classroom and you know that you know that that little angel's actually massively under stress but trying to to get school to see that is really tricky. Um | so for us it was really just a case of cop. | | | | | |
| 24:56.21 louisekuchel Um | yes | yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 25:07.87 Sam You know | continuing to have those iep meetings and challenging assumptions that were getting made. Um I think I might have handed every single teacher a copy of ross green's explosive child at 1 point.
| 25:21.84 louisekuchel Yes | hello. Yeah yeah | yeah | yeah | that's all we can do isn't it but it's almost you need Even the. |
| 25:24.54 Sam So any dish that out and the Mona della hookie books and I'm just like oh would you be interested in reading this thing that I read. Um | so yeah. | | | | | | | | |
| 25:36.41 louisekuchel More handholding to sit down with them and highlight it highlight the book together.
| 25:37.40 Sam Yeah I like with I be like I saw this really interesting thing. So no I mean they've they've been. They're very eager. You know they they've been amazing. Um | so then um | it's like my my kids are That's the case. | | | | |
| 25:42.99 louisekuchel But that's why podcasts is so good. Yeah oh and sorry before you before you keep going I Just want to say some people might not know this so cps stands for collaborative proactive solutions isn't it.
| 26:02.80 Sam Solutions. Yeah | it changed didn't it. So I think that's what it's good. | | | | |
| 26:02.68 louisekuchel Yes | so yeah | but that's what Sam meant when she said cps it's about problem solving together with the child and involving them in that. Yeah I just wanted to say that in case | anyone didn't know. | | | | |
| 26:07.84 Sam Yet. Yeah | that's right? So it goes along the lines of I'm noticing. You're having I don't know you know I noticing you're calling out more in Class. What's happening for you and then talking to the child about what's happening to them and then talking about your concerns.
| 26:22.26 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah | coming up with a yep yeah. | | | | | |
| 26:31.17 Sam And then coming to a solution together. So how can I support you to feel okay in class but also maybe not shout out 50 times in a minute yeah
| 26:37.36 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah | yeah | that's a good example. Yeah yeah | it's very good. Yeah | and so just thinking a little. We're kind of working through this in such wonderful. Um Segways into the next area I was going to talk to you so I didn't say that very well. Um. I was goingnna talk to you next about self-a awareness authenticity self-identity you know | um | how are you working through that I know your boys are very little but it's obviously something you hear a lot about that is so important and as a coach.
| 27:10.18 Sam Um. | | | | | | | | |
| 27:14.26 louisekuchel And as a neurodivergent person yourself | you've already alluded to it already. So how do you work through that with your kids. |
| 27:21.97 Sam Yeah | so I think again because my kids were diagnosed so young in a way I feel like we kind of had a so far. It's been an easier road with that in a sense. However I think it's interesting. How okay. Ah | tell the story. So basically and so we you know we've been very open since they were diagnosed. You know we we would kind of talk ah about it as in everybody in our family has this | you know these different kind of brains compared to a lot of other people and you know we would notice the things that we do differently so we might. Thinking fifty times faster than everybody else. Um | we're all combined adhd. So yeah | you know we're thinking 50 times faster than everybody else or maybe we're finding it tricky to pay attention or maybe mummy's forgotten. Whatever it is or you've forgotten your water bottle so you know we talk about these things all the time. Um | and then we talk about the autistic side of things and the sensory side of things etc. So it's like they've grown up from babies I mean you know 2 and a half year olds knowing about this these things but I feel like for them in a way because it.
| 28:25.17 louisekuchel In. | | | | | | | |
| 28:36.85 Sam They've been so young. It's almost like you know like it's just if you ever try and have a conversation about it. They'd be like oh I don't really want to talk about that you know | just no interest in it's not a thing. Um | yeah so I think um. | | | | | | |
| 28:40.30 louisekuchel Yeah I don't know any different. Yeah yes. | | | |
| 28:53.32 Sam Interestingly I think it's going to become more of a conversation as they start to think about identity and because particularly for what the 1 that masks at school I think that although we're.
| 29:00.40 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | | |
| 29:08.86 Sam Always very open about it I feel like probably it isn't that integrated in his sense of self outside of home. So yeah I think we're gonna see what we'll have to see what happens when it starts to have an impact if it does I mean you know? Um | so. | | | | | | | | |
| 29:22.37 louisekuchel Um | and maybe in the teenage years more. | | | | | |
| 29:28.37 Sam we're very we're very um positive we're very kind of on board with the Neuro divergent paradigm in that this is neurodiversity is a natural variation. Um | that can be awesome. Can also be pretty problematic. You know in the wrong situation. So yeah.
| 29:42.67 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | |
| 29:47.60 Sam I Think they certainly know about it. They certainly are aware of it and they sometimes ask questions. But it's kind of almost like it does. It's so irrelevant it doesn't matter because there's just always known. Yeah.
| 29:54.10 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah | yeah | yeah | and you don't want to go on about it all the time. But yeah | well you know | but it is such an important factor. Yes | we do too we do too. It's it's hard not to and you know it is an important thing to.
| 30:02.12 Sam No | we probably do because we talk about it a lot. But yeah. | | | |
| 30:13.57 louisekuchel Be aware of and understand and embrace and it is your identity. It is part of it. So yeah I can see why you know it's important but not the be all in end all for a 7 even-year-old boy
| 30:14.25 Sam Yeah | that's right? Yeah | yeah | yeah | but I kind of feel like you know I see I see it with because I've done a lot of work at universities and and things and I'd see it with. Girls with with young women I think that when I was younger you know gender though you know you've kind of felt like you were fighting for your space more in education and in in employment and I think that a lot of the time the the kind of women young women that I see coming through that situation. They don't see. Being in education is something special or you know wanting to have a professional job as something special. So There's maybe not necessarily always that awareness that actually you know it has been a struggle for others going before you if it's just Normal. So.
| 30:52.00 louisekuchel E e. | | | | | | | |
| 31:02.25 louisekuchel Um | yeah | yeah | yeah | yes | yeah I think it's a good thing. Yeah. | |
| 31:08.35 Sam I'm glad my kids don't really see it as a big thing because I think they just think they think everybody has ot appointments and like horrified for those poor children that don't get to play around with you know.
| 31:17.29 louisekuchel So I actually I remember when my son used to see the Ot all the time. Absolutely loved it all that climbing around and in the ball pit and all that. Yeah yeah | it's fun. Yeah | yeah | yeah | yeah | that's wonderful. That's really good. | |
| 31:24.49 Sam Yeah | oh yeah | yeah | and like I say they've been going since Sarah Babies I mean they just think these people are just star friends part of their lives and you know like.
| 31:37.28 louisekuchel So You mentioned about your you sort of alluded to your clients. There. Can you tell us a bit about your professional life and who is or what is your business. The neurodivergent coach. Um | what is the purpose of this new organisation and what are you trying to achieve with this venture.
| 31:55.10 Sam Sure. So um I guess in my career I've worn quite a lot of different hats very adhd career actually and um so I guess across you know since I graduated from uni which is a while ago now. And of worked in ah hr recruitment and and learning and development and coaching. So um | what very very corporate space before I had the babies then did a masters in coaching psychology um or studied for the masters actually unfortunately came out just. With ah 2 modules off the Masters. So almost a masters but graduate to graduate Diploma in coaching psych. Um and then worked in career coaching at the university of sydney for a few years um before and I love telling this story so you know once.
| 32:32.91 louisekuchel Um | wrong. | | | | | | | | |
| 32:49.55 Sam Once The boys got their diagnosis as is my way started doing lots of research you know researching about careers and things like that. So because I'm working in that career coaching space I thought okay well let's have a see what resources there are and you know what happens to to what will happen to my kids when they get to University Etc. And. Um | found out that even if my kids get to University which you know they should have every chance of doing. Um they will be significantly less likely to be employed by the end of it than even other people with ah with a disability.
| 33:26.39 louisekuchel Um | yep. | | | | | | | | |
| 33:28.58 Sam Um | and much less likely than people without a disability. Um | and so yes | the range started Lou I started thinking you know I was just like okay well this can't possibly happen. Um | you know | um and I was always quite. | | |
| 33:36.99 louisekuchel Oh I don't blame you. | | | | | |
| 33:46.70 Sam In the kind of education advocacy space but just thought okay well this you know ah can't be having this I've got maybe at the time it was kind of 15 years left to solve this problem out. So um | actually um | worked for the australian network on disability who are um. I guess they do kind of corporate access and inclusion consultancy to big organizations government sector um and the private sector so that was absolutely amazing. Um | and then I set up the noer divergent coach in its current form. Was working a little bit with parents before but in its current form in may this year um so to answer your question. No not that long ago. So but to answer your question I guess really for me | it's more now more of a mission than a career. So. | |
| 34:30.15 louisekuchel Okay | not long ago. | | | | | | | |
| 34:41.84 louisekuchel P. | | | | | | | |
| 34:43.46 Sam Um | on this mission you know to to um to change things I felt that what I was seeing in the newer divergent space versus you know | doing a ah Master's degree in Motivational psychology really just so different. Just such different approaches. You know where are the strength-based approaches to careers and.
| 35:00.78 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | |
| 35:02.83 Sam To self-actualization and all of those kind of things in the space that I'm in. Um so I just felt that that was a bit of a gap I guess so I guess the mission I'm on now is threefold and so first of all to change organizational cultures around neurodiversity and. And to help organizations create cultures where newer divergent people can thrive and belong which is a little bit different to just being allowed in the space. That's a little bit different to things being accessible belonging is more about.
| 35:27.29 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 35:35.35 louisekuchel Yes. | | | | | | | |
| 35:39.90 Sam You know | really feeling that you are supposed to be there and that you are wanted and that you can be yourself So um and then I guess the other side is helping individuals to design careers that work for them that are built on their strengths and interests and abilities. Um.
| 35:43.60 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | |
| 35:53.80 louisekuchel Um | yeah. | | | | | | | | |
| 35:58.42 Sam And then the third 1 kind of incorporates all of the advocacy work so still quite active advocating in the education space. And yeah | just really want to make sure that I'm thinking systemically as well as individually and organizationally so yeah.
| 36:06.33 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | |
| 36:12.16 louisekuchel So would would you class some of the um active advocacy in the education space would as the work that you and I have done or are you doing other projects as well.
| 36:16.92 Sam Mission. | | | | | | | |
| 36:26.49 Sam Yeah | so um | so I think you know contributing to things through you but also um | yeah through p yep exactly? Um | also um | you probably know I'm 1 of the admin on adhd whisperer who are.
| 36:33.69 louisekuchel Yep to P Tripa A yeah. | | | | | |
| 36:44.75 Sam Ah | really big Facebook group so we do a lot of supporting parents on that group helping them to advocate that school. So the amazing Selena lee um | and um yet so we do a lot of work helping parents with newer divergent children to advocate at school so help.
| 36:47.29 louisekuchel Oh no I didn't know that. Okay | yep. | | | | | | | | |
| 37:04.67 Sam You know | walk them through scenarios that might be happening I guess but also campaigning for screening for newer divergence at Primary school in the same way that we're screening for vision impairment and those kind of things. So.
| 37:13.19 louisekuchel Okay | yeah. | | | | | | | | |
| 37:21.15 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | | |
| 37:21.32 Sam Are far more children out there with undiagnosed neurodiergence than there are undiagnosed children with Richman their impair so you know given the impact on educational outcomes on employment outcomes. It's just nuts that we're not um | we're not screening children. So that's another part of that. | | | |
| 37:27.31 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | |
| 37:38.98 louisekuchel Um | a massive piece of the puzzle missing to not yeah to be leaving that out. Yeah | okay. | | | | | | | |
| 37:41.70 Sam Work. Oh so big. Yeah exactly. Um | yeah | we're just being jolly opinionated about it whenever I get the chance to be honestly | that's really the third bit thing. A jolly little busy but. | |
| 37:51.56 louisekuchel Just like every other person I ever talked to and when I look in the mirror it the same thing over and over again. We've got to get somewhere surely. There's so many of us.
| 38:04.51 Sam Well | you know I was me I was talking to the amazing Seina recently about that and I said you know that we're fifteen percent of the population. We just need to all get together. We've got to stop work. We've got to stop working separately I really do think that I think that we've got to just collect over up together and say we just.
| 38:13.58 louisekuchel Um | yeah. Oh I agree. | | | | | | | |
| 38:23.17 Sam To tell people we're not standing for this discrimination anymore. It's ridiculous. You know | um yeah | which is. | | | | | | | |
| 38:26.27 louisekuchel Yep | yep yeah and that's what we tried to do when we started P Aaa as well was to try and bring the parents together to have a voice and to to to speak up and try and improve the outcomes and you know like you've just said. Yeah.
| 38:39.64 Sam And well to you but you are doing a great job though. So I'm meeting up with um | a another pin I'm on the Pnc for our school. We don't really need a newer divergent specific pnc in our school because I think pretty much everybody's on board you know? Um | but I'm meeting up with P andnc from another school who. | | |
| 38:52.13 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 38:58.56 Sam Want some you know some coaching on how they can make sure that their school is more inclusive so that was an idea from you Lou So you know it is working these little seeds of hope. Yeah | they know these little scenes of hope that they are. It is absolutely working. You know so. |
| 39:02.45 louisekuchel Oh you? Oh right? I was just gonna say you? What do you know about that I was just going to like do a little pitch for that. Ah oh okay | oh like I was even shocked then oh someone actually heard that Oh that's good. Oh. |
| 39:19.81 Sam Yeah | yeah | good. | | | | | | | |
| 39:20.70 louisekuchel Oh that's fabulous. Yeah | well | that's still happening. We're meeting this week actually that group. So yeah | that's that's very much happening. Yes | and so back to the neurodivergent coach. Can you can we kind of get as we're getting towards the end now but you know we want to? um.
| 39:28.51 Sam Yeah | yeah | yeah | yeah | absolutely. | | | | |
| 41:06.63 louisekuchel Who is an autistic um 20 year old person who anyway by the time this is here it will have been launched and I'll say ah during that conversation. We talked about chris vani and the ican network and the study that they've done.
| 41:10.35 Sam Yeah | yes. Okay | cool. Yeah moon. | | | | | | |
| 41:23.62 louisekuchel About sixty percent I think it was sixty percent of the of autistic young people are facing employment struggles of some sort So I'll lead into it with that is that? Okay | yeah | okay so. | | | | | | | |
| 41:33.14 Sam Yeah | yeah | perfect. That's fine. Yep. | | | | | |
| 41:41.67 louisekuchel Sam can you tell us just to go back to the neurodivergent coach. Can you First of all | tell us a little bit about some of the individuals that you've worked with and what what are some of the hurdles that they've had to overcome and you know what's happened there and then I wanted to ask you about. Working with organizations that is at a fantastic initiative by the time this episode is here and people are listening to it. They hopefully have heard the episode where I interviewed Shadia hancock and I spoke to them about chris vani from the Icann network has presented some.
| 42:00.11 Sam A fifth. | | | | | | | |
| 42:13.59 Sam Mood. | | | | | | | |
| 42:17.77 louisekuchel Research recently stating that I think it was from memory sixty percent of autistic people facing struggles with accessing employment and some really distressing figures from the research that the Ican Network have done if you can talk a little bit more about what.
| 42:27.63 Sam Yeah | yeah | yeah | yeah. | | | | | | |
| 42:36.42 louisekuchel You hope your organisation can do to help those people. | | |
| 42:39.45 Sam Absolutely so I think for me | the reason why I felt like how to start the Neuro divergent coach is because because I feel like I've got you know a foot in where it's actually more than 2 2 camps but in multiple camps where I've got this. History of recruitment and ah hr are ah making those hiring decisions. So in 1 of my roles I um | you know was was a manager on 1 of the largest graduate programs in australia at the time so you know making those hiring decisions every day and so I know. Decisions that get made and the criteria that we're using to make those decisions and so you know when I looked at then the unemployment it kind of made it made sense totally made sense to me. You know when we're making decisions on things like eye contact and you know how well like you know we felt like we joded the person in the interview.
| 43:23.59 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 43:29.64 Sam All important things but quite often. Um | you know if you're just come across as a little bit different to other people that can be enough to exclude you regardless of the skills. So I guess yeah | absolutely the work that people like chrisovanni said you're doing completely plays. All that research sorry plays out in the other statistics. So I think I've already mentioned you know the unemployment rates also the underemploy rates. So if people even if people are working they often are working in roles that are far below their competence level so they might have a you know a degree. Amazing skills in in whatever but not be using that experience at all. So um | the biggest challenge is that I have seen with individuals that I've worked with but also in the research. So First of all would be even getting through the selection process. So. Interview processes are absolutely biased towards individuals who are great at talking of good job if that makes sense so interview processes generally don't test who's gonna be best for the job. They generally test who's the best at talking about being the best for the job. So um | you know. | | | | |
| 44:31.36 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 44:38.96 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 44:43.67 Sam There's absolutely that piece and even when we take a step before that many individuals who have a hidden disability who even have you know done? well at school or at University have had a lot more challenges to deal with and so all of the little indicators that organizations use. You know | even at that very junior level to make decisions such as did this person have a part time job have they played competitive sport have they done. You know all these things on the resume that are seen to make you know a great Candidate. Um Neuro divergent children or even you know. Discriminated against at that point. So um | you know there's all these things plus and observationally and I'd love to do some proper research on this and you know so many people that I talk to just believe that they don't you know then they're not.
| 45:22.20 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 45:38.46 Sam Not cut out to work in corporate environments people wouldn't want them. People won't want them if they share information about their disability or ask for adjustments and so even those individuals that do get a job often end up failing at that job. Um.
| 45:38.93 louisekuchel Worthy. | | | | | | |
| 45:56.80 Sam And getting managed out of organizations because they don't feel comfortable to share the information about it and um | you know either that or they end up chronically stressed and leave themselves and so I could talk about just a lot so and ramble. But.
| 46:07.89 louisekuchel Yeah | oh but I'm sitting here lapping it up Sam because and I actually are you going to think I'm weird but ah.
| 46:16.43 Sam Yeah | it's such a big thing. It's such I Honestly I feel like I need to do some workshops of parents because I feel like it's like we need to start when they're like forty. It's true. Um.
| 46:23.95 louisekuchel Yes | yes | no well I'm sitting here with a child that is about to turn 14 and I I know you'll think I'm strange but I was getting shivers up my spine then I swear to you? No | it's absolutely pivotal. | | | | |
| 46:38.71 Sam It's true though yet that is pivotal. | | | | | |
| 46:41.91 louisekuchel And it's it's in the back of my mind all the time but because I haven't got there yet. I'm so great at talking about what what happened when he was younger and what I'd do again and trying to help parents who are just starting out. You know that's my thing but what about my own kid.
| 46:46.83 Sam Yeah | yet yet. You. | | | | | | | |
| 46:58.61 louisekuchel Who is about to enter the world. He's in you know he's going to be finished school in a few short years and everything you just said to me then absolutely resonated with me and I hear this all the time and I do see chris farni and the icant network talking about it and people like Shadia are there.
| 47:01.74 Sam Um. | | | | | | | | |
| 47:07.70 Sam Man. | | | | | | | |
| 47:14.33 Sam Yet. | | | | | | | | |
| 47:18.56 louisekuchel That's great and people like you obviously that's great. We need it far out. It's scary stuff today. Yeah.
| 47:21.72 Sam Oh we? So and we need it not just for autism I think that's 1 big gap you know what about those adhd kids that don't aren't autistic. What about the kids with learning disabilities tourette syndrome etc. There's just a huge gap for those for those people and you know.
| 47:35.60 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | |
| 47:39.38 Sam We're saying oh you need to start a 14 well they need by the time they're 14 they need to be able to walk into Macdonald's or wherever and say hello I would like a job plus I've got adhd or I'm autistic and these are the adjustments that I need to be successful. So you know it's we've got to. Enable our kids to be successful. We have to enable them to advocate for themselves and be able to ask for the things that they need at work. Obviously you know I say sharing information. Um because disclosure to me sounds like it's not a big secret. Is it. But.
| 48:01.20 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 48:14.40 Sam Disclosure kind of indicates that it's something to not tell people. But you know sharing sharing information is a personal choice and of course people should have that choice but you know the research shows that if we don't share information about our disability. Our performance is likely to be reduced by.
| 48:14.63 louisekuchel Um | now well it. Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 48:24.49 louisekuchel M. | | | | | | | |
| 48:32.95 Sam About thirty percent because we're using resources to manage ourselves at work in the same way that our kids might be using you know resources they need to learn to manage their stress at school so trying to get us to sell so the point where we can share that information is much better for our long term.
| 48:45.75 louisekuchel Yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | |
| 48:51.87 Sam Productivity and mental health. Um | so I'm probably going around round the woods to give you an art low but essentially it's helping individuals to to us for adjustments helping individuals to build up that self-belief to think that they are deserving of a job that they want to do rather than what they're.
| 48:53.97 louisekuchel Absolutely wow. | | | | | | |
| 49:08.94 louisekuchel He e. | | | | | | | |
| 49:11.50 Sam Being allowed to do or you know has been suggested to them. Um | and yeah | that's that's really the crux of what the newer diversgent coach is all about um and in terms of how so on the with the individuals. It's individual coaching or um.
| 49:22.55 louisekuchel Well | that's great. | | | | | | | |
| 49:29.30 Sam Group coaching programs. So probably by the time this goes out that that will have launched so I'm launching a program in October but they'll be really regular from there for people that don't want to do individual coaching and want to work in a group. So yes | all the things leave. | | | | | | | |
| 49:39.97 louisekuchel Okay. Okay | fantastic. Well well this is wonderful. This podcast is not just about schools as we say at the beginning it's about embracing neurodiversity at home at school and in the workplace. So you're the first person who's really kind of.
| 49:51.78 Sam Boom. | | | | | | | |
| 50:02.77 louisekuchel Touched on this and it's very important I think we could possibly do a whole episode on this as the kind of podcast evolves and we might focus just on workplace and you also with your business get some more experience and you know.
| 50:08.40 Sam Yet. | | | | | | | | |
| 50:19.46 Sam Boom. | | | | | | | |
| 50:19.52 louisekuchel Some runs on the board and start to see some inroads being made particularly I believe there are some organizations who want to work on this. So I hope that you are able to access them in the future.
| 50:26.88 Sam Oh absolutely? Um | yeah | yeah | so it's funny because so I know you've been speaking to shivron shibona me will working together on another project called neurodiestty academy with an amazing team including will Wheeler who's.
| 50:35.11 louisekuchel Yes. | | | | | | | |
| 50:43.83 louisekuchel Oh yes | ah he doesn't know I'm coming after him but I am but. | | | |
| 50:45.81 Sam And Africa in there. Um. | | | | | | |
| 50:50.40 Sam Oh he'll love it. He's I Like we just all should get together. Um | so yeah | he's fabulous. So we're all working to support him in that project. Um | and then Rachel wills that he runs neurodiversity media so I contributed as ah | um as a writer for her. But also yeah | um. | | | | |
| 50:52.78 louisekuchel Yes. | | | | | | | |
| 51:00.60 louisekuchel Yes. | | | | | | | |
| 51:07.84 louisekuchel Yeah | I'm going after her too I know these people but they don't often know me but they soon find out.
| 51:09.95 Sam You know | always? yeah so you are coming after them. Um | so you know I think no very well. Um | so there there is a lot of movement happening in this space I mean there are organizations obviously who would say that they are placing individual.
| 51:24.20 louisekuchel Woo good. | | | | | | |
| 51:27.62 Sam Neuro divergent individuals into roles a lot of those organizations are focusing on Autism and very specific roles and so I guess my perspective on that is that I think that personally.
| 51:28.72 louisekuchel Good. | | | | | | | |
| 51:34.76 louisekuchel Here. | | | | | | | |
| 51:45.78 Sam Myself but also for my kids I would want us all to be able to do whatever job we wanted and not to have that decision be made for us by other people. So um I feel that those programs do a particular job but but my work is more focused on how do we enable organizations. Um.
| 51:48.66 louisekuchel In. | | | | | | | |
| 52:05.47 Sam And in organizations to enable individuals to do whatever job they want and make sure that those individuals are ready to explain why they'll be amazing at those roles. So yeah.
| 52:10.31 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 52:15.99 louisekuchel Wow Oh I'm really excited about that. Thank you so much for explaining that um before we finish can you? Why are you laughing? Oh we've got a delay now. That's great.
| 52:30.32 Sam Like I just know I could blab on about this stuff for ages. It's funny. Oh debol I'm definitely coming back now.
| 52:34.48 louisekuchel Well | we're definitely going to get you back because I didn't actually realize that sometimes when I talk to people I go oh hang on. Yeah with that's a whole podcast episode so we will. Yeah yeah.
| 52:43.35 Sam Yeah I mean I could talk a lot more about the skill avocacy stuff. So I've been very reserved for that actually but um | anyway | we will um again | we'll talk again. So it's all good. | | | |
| 52:54.36 louisekuchel Yeah | we will Oh we definitely will. Um I'm in control here so I can do whatever I want my podcast. Ah.
| 53:00.91 Sam I am a grave. | | | | | | | |
| 53:04.10 louisekuchel No I'm not a control freak or anything. Um | okay so just before we finish. Is there any resource. Ah | you've mentioned Russ green but are there any books mentors resources that you would like to mention that you feel that other families would benefit from.
| 53:08.22 Sam Yeah | yeah. | | | | | | | | |
| 53:21.92 louisekuchel Knowing more about. | | | | | |
| 53:23.14 Sam Yes | so I mean yes I am in in the ross green gang when it comes to parenting and also Mona del hookie who I know that you have coming on sit amazing. Um | oh so excited. But um. | | | | | |
| 53:31.20 louisekuchel Yeah | by the time this is out she will have been on I'm just beside myself. | | |
| 53:41.54 Sam Yeah | absolutely So I think from an employment perspective to be honest | there isn't an awful lot of information that goes along the lines that I'm talking about there's definitely lots more research happening now. Um | there's some research studies that point to the dire. | |
| 53:50.71 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 53:58.42 Sam Situation that I'm certainly happy to share with you Lou and hopefully that might make people understand why this is important. There was some very interesting research out of the Uk which translates over to the Australian environment as well by a great autistic advocate called Kieran Rose who looked at.
| 53:59.67 louisekuchel Yes | I'll put them in the show notes. Yeah. | | | | | |
| 54:17.11 Sam Um | hiring managers perspectives on Neurod divergent people and found that over half of hiring managers in the Uk said that they would actively not to Acc Recruit a Neuro-d divergent person given the choice despite the discrimination laws and unfortunately Adhd and Toette's syndrome were the. Least slightly to be employed. Um | so yeah | so there's definitely a lot of room employment. Yeah | no | That's well I think the thing is is we focus so much on education because Education is such a big struggle.
| 54:37.27 louisekuchel Well well sometimes people need to hear the the I know it's depressing but sometimes people need to hear that to think well I don't think so yeah.
| 54:54.64 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 54:56.53 Sam But actually we've got to think about what are we getting them ready for and if we're not getting them ready for anything then that is you know that is going to be devastating for our kids that have worked so hard at school to end up | not not achieving anything like I'm I'm not accepting it thoughu. It's not I have. | |
| 55:01.75 louisekuchel Who. | | | | | | | |
| 55:09.92 louisekuchel You're so right? Yeah | well you just heard me say that That's how I look at things I Just think I don't think so no | that's not going to happen. But I I'm a person that needs to hear that. Yeah yeah | thank you. | | | | | |
| 55:17.91 Sam But exactly so there's absolutely I can link to some research projects for you? Um | no problem if I had to yeah so this is not a Neuro divergent resource. But if I had to um | say so I work from a model called career design. | | | |
| 55:26.53 louisekuchel Ah | yeah | I'm sure I need more work. | | | | | |
| 55:37.56 Sam Um | so it's a model out of stanford university and it uses design thinking principles and applies those to career planning and so what is great about that for Neuro divergent people is it really taps into the way that most of us think and are creative and solve problems.
| 55:54.19 louisekuchel E. | | | | | | | |
| 55:56.76 Sam So um | it it really I found resonates with us as as a as a gang. Um | and it also is a very good methodology for stopping us from making impulsive decisions. So even if you're noa divergent or not so many people make career decisions.
| 56:05.39 louisekuchel Yep. | | | | | | | |
| 56:16.65 Sam Based on very loose information. Um | and so this is ah a way of actually sorting through a lot of different career options and coming out with a good decision. So yeah | it's my is my methodology So I'll send you the link to the book. Um. | |
| 56:18.29 louisekuchel And. | | | | | | | |
| 56:26.36 louisekuchel Um | okay | great. Yes | please and obviously I'll put the link to your your organization in the show notes and when your episode comes out. We'll talk more about how people can.
| 56:34.96 Sam Um | not model. | | | | | | | |
| 56:38.80 Sam Um. | | | | | | | | |
| 56:45.35 louisekuchel Find you and um and talk to you if they need to I've got a feeling that there's going to be particularly in our community because our kids are all getting older I know yours are still little but mine mind not um | a lot of my friends. Their kids are starting to work up through high school now and it's now the next thing on the radar for us. So.
| 56:46.89 Sam Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 56:53.66 Sam The. | | | | | | | | |
| 57:00.17 Sam Um | yeah | and yeah I'm really I'm I'm feeling that probably this is something where parents need to understand to help children before So it's definitely been simmering away in my mind to do some parent parent workshops as well to help support.
| 57:05.19 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 57:09.31 louisekuchel Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 57:15.36 louisekuchel Yes | yes | my previous role. Yeah yeah | that's right? And yeah | once they go back far out. Are we ever going to get that time back again. But yeah and I think it's also.
| 57:19.60 Sam Parents Well God wants you kids are back at school. We've got a lot of work to do I'll tell you.
| 57:29.85 Sam Ah | so I'm like I'm like I've got work to do it. Still don't need to go to school. | | |
| 57:34.60 louisekuchel Ah | tell me I got ah the first few weeks. That's when I really really was feeling sort of quite resentful of my because I just started my podcast and then we're a lockdown and I was so ah stressed thinking I ah can't believe this is going to ruin it and I was determined for it not to but you you get through a bit but.
| 57:39.10 Sam Yet? yes. | | | | | | | |
| 57:49.20 Sam Yeah | no and I hear you and yeah I agree we've tried to keep things tiing over I think for us | it's pretty challenging because we've got such young children so we can't just be like go over there and do your work now. It's literally you know it's literally like every single activity's got to be managed. But um | yeah. | | | | | | |
| 57:53.64 louisekuchel E. Um | no | you've got a different thing. Um | we will. There's only a few more weeks. No | that's right? What can we do? I ah | it's good to be in australia and in ah so many ways. So.
| 58:09.20 Sam But we'll get there. We'll get there. These problems aren't going anywhere. | |
| 58:15.92 Sam Yet. | | | | | | | | |
| 58:18.80 louisekuchel Yeah | all right? Well let's sign off then shall we have you said everything you wanted to say or we're going to save the rest for your next episode I knew it would be yes well and your ah.
| 58:26.69 Sam We'll save the rest for the next episode it's been fabulous for sure I think I've said everything I should keep talking about this all for ages low. So you know.
| 58:35.39 louisekuchel Um | very active member on the Facebook group so you can talk to people there and I know you will? Yeah yeah | get involved. And yeah | yes | oh you know I'll put that in the thing and I'll say the website now and I'll also put it in the notes.
| 58:38.11 Sam Oh yeah | absolutely. And um oh I guess the way I should probably share the website should get better at promoting my subtion I say yeah absolutely on Facebook groups. Absolutely so I've got the Facebook page and insta instagram not very good at posting on Instagram and which would be the newer divergent coach and then the website is the newer divergent coach dot org. So.
| 59:05.99 louisekuchel No dot a u just dot org. Okay | all right? Well I hope everybody heard that and I will put it in the notes and we'll put it on the Facebook group and all of that and people will be able to find you because I've got a feeling that they're gonna need you. So thank.
| 59:09.80 Sam No | just to org. Yeah. | | | | | | | |
| 59:20.72 Sam Watch Ah | be all right? No worries. My pleasure is absolutely fantastic to meet you. | | |
| 59:25.60 louisekuchel Okay | yes | well | that's good. That's good. Thank you so much Sam absolutely amazing. Okay I'm going to sign us off. Yeah | even if it's through a strange ah platform for recording a podcast that doesn't really work that well. But.
| 59:43.91 Sam Ah | joy. Thank you. | | | | | | | |
| 59:44.48 louisekuchel Way we keep rolling with the punches all right signing off for now. Thank you sam.