Welcome back to the Transform Your Mind to Transform Your Alive, the podcast. You're listening to Authors Corner, where we highlight and showcase our local authors. Today I am speaking to Rodney E. Walker, author of America's First Black Navy Ske SEAL, Bill Goins, Forged Through Adversity. And Rodney and I are going to be talking today on the topic, the story of Bill Gowens Forge Through Adversity. Welcome, Rodney. Welcome. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. You're very welcome. All right. So let me give you guys a brief synopsis of the book. Bill Gowens is an American hero with an exceptional life story. He completed three tours in Vietnam fighting the communist Vet Cong and orchestrated over 100 dangerous missions without ever getting shot, attaining the highest enlisted rank in the Navy. While the community of U.S. Navy SEALs largely accepted him for his superior abilities, he still struggled for racial acceptance at home during the Civil War era. Many anecdotal experiences are described in the segregated town of Nork Fork, Virginia. Goens, who had to teach himself to swim because there is no public swimming pools for plots, and became highly favored in the Navy SEALs, he was selected to leave over 100 Montayard ethnic villagers and successfully turned them into an elite commando force, which earned him an award of recognition. Awesome. Well, that's just a brief synopsis. And I hope that we will share a bit more of his story in our conversation today. And then, you know, for those who would like to pick up a copy of the book, you can get the rest. So as I start off, Rodney, can you tell me, because you're writing a story about someone else, how did you come to meet Bill Goins, the Navy SEAL? And what inspired you to tell his story?
SPEAKER_02Well, a little bit about my motivations that I went to college as a writer to learn writing. I was like an under my undergrad, uh, my minor, that is. And so I spent a lot of time. I had come from California, Hollywood, and I went to little old Sioux City, Iowa, a private college, uh to uh to learn journalism. And one of the challenges in Sioux City, Iowa was not a lot of things were going on. Uh back in California, there's all kinds of news, there's all kinds of celebrity news, and but when you go to places like uh Sioux City, Iowa, the challenge was as a writer, as someone who's learning to write or or practices writing, where do I get the story? And I had to think, you know, what makes a good story? You know, the women's auxiliary uh it wasn't really a good story, but those are the kinds of things that were happening. So I really disciplined myself in trying to find a good story, and I've always had that with me in my mind. Now, when I met Bill, the way I met Bill was I was I was substituting, actually, I was teaching at a school where he had been a security, he ran the security uh after he uh retired from the SEALs. And I went to the principal, a visiting principal, and I said, you know what? I happened to meet, and I was talking to him about another man, I said, I happened to meet a guy who was the last, he was the last officer in the Band of Brothers. Uh, that Band of Brothers series. Uh, it was a man who Edward Shames I had met, and I was trying to uh interview him and write about him, you know, fascinating man. And uh and the principal kind of won up to me. He said, Well, I happened to know the first Black Navy SEAL. I said, Are you kidding me? And I and I thought for a minute, I thought that'd be such a great story. I mean, the first Black Navy SEAL, knowing the SEAL's background and the era from which they came, because I teach history, I teach US history, I teach world history. That's what I just I thought this would be a great story. Uh, it was just in my mind, and so you know, to make a long story short, I said, can can I meet him? And you know, the SEAL community is very closed, it's very exclusive. You have to know someone to know someone to get introduced, right?
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_02And I said, Can I please, can you just uh uh I want to meet him? Can you can you introduce me? He said, No, I'll give him your number, and if he wants, he'll get in touch with you. Uh, I said, Okay, I waited three months and Bill wasn't he wasn't connected with me. And I thought, I've gotta think like a seal here now. I mean, I'm I'm determined to get to this guy. So I did a little uh background check and I I went into uh archives and I looked at some newspaper articles about him, and I found where he he last was at a kind of a community um event, a charity event. And I found out where he was and I called the the the uh the people from the event and I said, Look, I'm trying to get into build coins. He's you know, I'm I don't have I have the best of intentions. I've been waiting for him to call me. I'm just wondering. And the guy said, Well, sure, I have this number. Let me give it to you. And so I got his number. I called Bill, and Bill was, I think he was surprised and impressed because he was thinking, How did this guy get my number? But anyway, I think he was impressed with that, and from then we we we met. I gave him uh some samples of writings I had accomplished. I said, I want to do a story about you, and this is these are some samples, and then we kind of took it from there.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, that's great, that's great. So, yeah, what you're saying is that you were interested in doing stories as a history person. You you navigated to this particular story, obviously. Yeah, the first black Navy SEAL. So, yes, as you as you um started talking to him, um, I'm sure he told you about the challenges he had to overcome uh to become a Navy SEAL in a segregated America. And I love the fact that you said that he learned to swim or he had to teach himself to swim because there were no, you know, public swimming pools for for black people through um uh you know in his era. So um, and and and I love the fact that part of your book's tagline is forged true adversity. Yeah. Well tell us what what did Bill tell you? How was it like growing up in a segregated America? What are some of the what are a couple of the things that stood out to you?
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, for one thing, uh I did choose the subtitle, Forged to Adversity, because it's actually a a seal motto. It's one of the models.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02Uh models. And it does, but it does describe his coming his life and and his coming to the seals. Now he started actually in the in the mid-50s, he saw a film uh about an underwater commando force, and I believe it started which Richard Widmark, and it's this old film about uh the UDT was underwater demolition teams they had back then. They didn't have seals yet until Kennedy they had underwater demolition teams, and they had to go underwater and and blow blow things up and booby set booby traps, and he loved that film, and he decided that he said right then he said my destiny was decided. I chose to to work with UDT, and nothing was going to deter me at that time though. The Navy there was segregation had been ended through uh Truman's uh executive order, but there was still not integration in the military, and there were some there were many careers or jobs which were reserved uh for people of color, and they were kind of shepherded that way to do things like stewardships, uh cleaning, cooks of course like that. And they'll had been warned that uh they were gonna try to recruit him into that field, one of those fields. And he decided he said, No, I'm just gonna go anyway. Uh and he just kind of went. It was an army buddy who was trying to tell him, hey, consider the army because the navy's not gonna get you what you want to do. But there weren't any underwater demolition teams in the army. So he actually signed up. He uh he went through a process where they had they had stopped the underwater demolition teams because the Korean War was over, they didn't think they need it. They stopped it and then they tried to to direct him towards something else. Uh, so he temporarily chose, I think it was radar, uh radio or something else, because he didn't want to end up in a place where he didn't want so he he chose something else, and then finally they reenacted the underwater demolition teams, and they went back to him and said, Do you still want to be part of this? And he said, Absolutely. Uh, so that's when he went in. And he was, you know, Bill had come from an athletic background, uh, he played basketball. He uh the family farm, his his uh grandfather had a farm, but they didn't have a uh a workhorse, and Bill was the workhorse, so they so he had to plow. Um you know, so he was pretty he was pretty fit, right? Okay, strong, uh pretty determined, and they saw these these characteristics when he was with in the UDT uh team, uh underwater demolition team. The uh but because of the era, because we're talking the Cold War era, and I do want to make that correction. If I had ridden civil uh civil rights era, I thought I I thought I might have heard you say civil war era, but more civil rights era, cold war era, um they had their eye on Bill. Bill was doing exceptionally well, and uh people federal you know, federal people were watching him as he was in UDT, and he even became an instructor uh in UDT. And so he was he was at part of the Bay of Pigs, uh the attempted invasion on Cuba, and because of the failure of that, uh uh there was this move to get a commando force together, uh, because it was a Cold War era, there was a lot of espionage going on, and uh now we're talking about unconventional warfare. You see, we're moving from conventional war to unconventional, right? And and Bill in many ways was unconventional, and so they have surveyed, they observe a couple of guys for over about a year or two, and then that's when Kennedy comes up with his plan for the Green Berets and the Navy SEALs as a as an unconventional uh commando unit, and Bill is offered uh a position. Uh they have to they had to invite them in because they didn't they they couldn't force them. Uh UDT was remaining at the time, but they said this is a you a new unit. We're transitioning some of you guys, if you want, from UDT to the SEAL teams, which is for stands for uh sea, air, and land, and you'll be doing a lot of different things. And Bill Bill liked it idea because he was a little bit bored with UDT, it was kind of routine, you know. They're it's like just blowing things up, uh doing some water maneuvers, but uh being a SEAL had a lot of more options for him to attract it, attractive to him.
SPEAKER_00So there's a couple good things in that story. One, I love the determination, I love the fact that I love when people know their purpose and their destiny immediately by watching something or reading something. The way I got into like coaching, I saw the word and I said that's what I want to be. So I understand that that that inspiration, but you you skipped right to where he became a Navy SEAL, but you we talked about the fact that how did how did he learn to swim and learn to swim so well to be become, you know, be part of the underwater water demolition team in a Navy SEAL? Because I'm telling you, I I have read several books in the Navy SEAL and I've interviewed some of the top Navy SEALs on this program. So I know about the underwater training and how bad it is and the whole Hell Week and all that type of stuff. So so how did he how did he prepare for underwater demolition? Where did he learn to swim or who taught him?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, he uh he he had seen a buddy. Well, I don't know if he actually saw the buddy, but a friend of his was drowned when he was very young, uh, I think around nine years old, and they would swim in a creek, and the the buddy got trapped under a fallen tree, uh, a branch underwater, I believe. And Bill had again because of segregation, they couldn't be taught to swim by any swimmers. And and in the African-American community, swimming was not a very popular uh until now. Most African-Americans don't know to swim. Right. But he but he was determined when he when he knew he had he had learned to swim enough as a young child to find his own rhythm, find his own stroke. Uh, and I think that was part of when he saw that film later on, he kind of made some connections because he he brought himself, he brought himself up to swimming. He wasn't the best on his team, uh, but he was he was good. And they when they trained, I mean they I think at bat at that time they had to swim eight miles uh uh on a swim test. And I asked him, you know, was there any time he just wanted to quit? He said he's he he said no. He had seen people quit, and all you had to do was ring a bell. Ring a bell, yeah. And he said, That's it. But um it wasn't an option for him because he he he pretty much knew his kind of saw his future and that this was a task I had to get out of a way to get to where I wanted to go. Uh but uh you know, things like underwater judo training, he went through they had to swim with sharks. Uh and he said, you know, in the daytime they didn't bother you at nighttime, you didn't want to be around them. He was actually part of a recovery group that had to find a shark that had um uh taken off the arm of one of their um somebody, yeah. I someone who was playing with sharks a lot. They called him sharky, I believe. And he so he was out on that task and they found the shark. They had to open him up, and then they found the arm of the ones with a watch in UDP different kind of recovery, yeah. But he was undeterred, you know. He he again he uh that was a task as a young person that he overcame on his own, learning to swim. And I think at that point he pretty much had the self-confidence from that to know that if I can set my mind to anything, I can get over it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. Okay. So um if we were gonna say some of his outstanding characteristics, I would, you know, from what you've mentioned so far, determination, um uh you know, vision, and uh right, and and and just wanting to make a difference. Um, is there anything else?
SPEAKER_02Uh Bill, as I got to know him, he became kind of like an uncle to me. And in fact, it's interesting because I saw him kind of like family. In fact, when I do book signings, people always look at the poster, they think it's me, or they ask, Oh, I say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I can never fill this man's shoes. Uh, but he was he kind of opened up because I I could relate a lot to his experiences. And uh to me, it seemed kind of eerie almost sometimes, but I thought, wow, because you know, when I grew up, I was uh I grew up in a private school and I was in my class, I was the only African-American uh boy for seven years. And so I grew up, and there's certain dynamics to that, and uh the way he grew up and the way entering seals, uh he kind of said some things which which I could relate to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, but one of the things obviously he was the first and only black embassy outside, yeah, and in this new book called The SEALs, that's right.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. And uh, but he said that there wasn't a lot of opposition to him, which which really reflects on the character of this these these early seals. They were they were radical men, and they were movers and shakers, and they were just different. And they would say, for example, what Bill would go to uh when they all go to go out to eat or something off duty, they go into a restaurant, and the and the owner would say, No, no, no, he can't come in here with you. Uh, and uh the SEALs would say, 'Well, you know, if he can't come in here, we're gonna turn this place out.' And they're they're about to, you know, flip over tables. He can do it too. Yes. And uh, so there was this kind of camaraderie in these these this SEAL team, too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, because you're responsible for each other's lives, isn't that what the army is about? No man left behind, kind of thing. So you gotta like your your teammate because you, you know, you you expect him to save you, or you know what I mean? Isn't that the whole concept of it?
SPEAKER_02Yes, and at one point, uh one of his fellow teammates, James Watson, I believe, wrote in his book, uh, a certain point you you do become colorblind. It's uh it's not uh I love that. You know, you gotta put all of that stuff away, all of these pre- you know, these uh attitudes away and and see the value of your brother and know his strengths and weaknesses. And uh so that was a thing, you know. There are there were some stories he shared though, also, you know, new people coming in and people still struggling with that. Uh, when he became a chief, there was a man who came in and said, you know, chief, I'm from Georgia, and I've never even seen a black man in my town, except for a uh a worker, uh, some laborer who comes and goes every now and then. And the the guy said, You know what? I don't think I'll be able to take orders from you. Wow, because you know, I this is something I've I'm not expected, I've never been expected to do, and it's a little awkward for me. And he was kind of coming, coming clean with Bill, and you know, Bill was very diplomatic. Uh, he sat him down, offered him coffee, and said, you know what, you you're gonna ruin your whole career. Uh, we've been through the same training, and we can't have that kind of thing. Uh it's not gonna work in the seals. I'm gonna have to talk to the commander about this. Wow, I know. Yeah, and he said, You're gonna be ready, you're gonna have to go back on a ship do ship duty. And the guy uh he said, you know, okay, please don't tell commander. I just wanted to see, you know, to see about how we can get over this. Bill gave him a chance, and he went on to be an outstanding SEAL, Bill Tolini. So there were still some people who had that.
SPEAKER_00This is a good book because it's it's touching on some really great important topics that are still relevant today, of all things. Talking about the Cold War era, we still gotta go on right now. But anyway, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, you know, the the beautiful thing is that once I released it, I got an Instagram. Maybe I maybe didn't tell you this from uh an uh an actor. I won't reveal who he is just yet, but he has this great show on Netflix, and he's anyway, he says, Who's got the copyrights to this book? And I said, Um they do. And he said, Well, I want to do a movie about this.
SPEAKER_00You actually told me that. That's beautiful, yeah. Because yes, this make a great movie. Yeah, great movie, yes, okay.
SPEAKER_02And you know, the interesting thing is the movie about Carl Brashir, uh, the one with Cuba Gooding and Robert De Niro called Amen about something, right? About the first African-American Navy diver. Okay. Well, he was a buddy of Bill's, and they would run together here in Norfolk, uh, a place near the on the sealed base called Little Creek. They would run around there together. And Bill would tell me how uh he would take off his prosthetic limb because back then the prosthetic limbs weren't as what they are today, kind of very high tech. And he would have to take this off this hollow shell off, and there'll be still be blood in it. He would just pour out the blood and uh and he would soak his. limb in warm water and salt to keep kind of heal it up. And they say, well, why don't you just go to the hospital? You know, Bill would say, Yes, get it get fixed up at the at the base hospital. And Brashur would say no, uh, because they're trying to get me out. They're trying to discharge me. And I don't want to give them any excuse. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Either it's me a medical discharge.
SPEAKER_01Both of them they're contemporaries and but both of them had similar, you know, a similar expense.
SPEAKER_02And uh so that was encouraging, you know, along the way, Bill had encouragement from others too. I mean he had a lot of self-determination, but uh he had a lot of support from his family. He had his father, great relationship with his dad and um and buddies along the way, either be whether it had been SEALs or a navy Carl Vershir and Navy diver whose wife whose wife played at his funeral last June. Carl Vashir's wife was there uh and I saw her playing so I thought that's great. So how did he die and when well Bill passed last June kind of around this time uh and it was a heart attack he had you know he had uh has issues because of agent orange uh being exposed to Vietnam have a lot of work on his heart over the years which is common amount around around vets because as a navy SEAL I mean they're everywhere under underwater they dig in the ground they're they're in the foliage and when they spray that uh that napalm you know it's just it's just dripping you know from from the trees and it's it's all around you so he exposed to a very high degree to uh orange yeah but he lived a long time it looks like how old was he when he died uh 87 he did live a long time he did go through a couple of heart surgeries and things but he did he did have a good life yeah 87 it's pretty good because if he only died last year and we're we're talking about the 50s here so yeah that's a good life that's awesome yeah he he was happy he had made those decisions no regrets uh so he was really just great to sit down and talk to we would do this over during the COVID years and I'm a teacher and I would finish my online teaching and then think well wow I've got all this time I gotta call Bill and we had a schedule we probably shouldn't have been meeting I mean everybody else was saying you can't meet and he's senior citizen and you know there's some risks uh so we kind of broke protocol and uh sat and talked and really got to know each other and uh I was encouraged by him yeah yeah yeah I love I listen you know I mean we can all we can all make excuses for not being who we should be or want to be and uh the biggest excuse is that you're the wrong color there's prejudices there's people not you know like the guy said they want to get rid of me so I'm not gonna give them the opportunity because but you can always fall under the banner of you know racism and segregation and you know all the things that are still happening right now right um but it's it's great to rise above it you know um and say I'm gonna succeed or like you know I I I have this quote that I love to say about the this guy that was climbing Mount Everest and he says I am going to I'm gonna climb Mount Reverence or you're gonna find me on the side dead you know what I mean so it's that kind of aptitude I love it.
SPEAKER_00So Bill said the same thing. I want to be an underward I want to be a SEAL that's what I want to do. And once you have that mindset which is what this show is all about you will succeed because you're gonna overcome those obstacles you know like the river you'll go around them and you go over them and so that was I I love the story and I hope they I hope they they make it into a movie because it's got a lot to teach you. It's got a lot to teach you. So I know that um uh you know one of the questions I have here is why did you write the book and what do you want reader to walk away with so I already knew why you wrote it because you started off by saying that so what do you hope telling the story um uh when someone's finished reading the book what do you want them to walk away with well a couple of things I do want them to see that Bill was a genuine overachiever and he he's not uh you know in this day sometimes we struggle we grasp on and build people up uh symbolically and we find these symbols uh people who haven't really somet often earned uh you know the res earned the status that we give them you know uh and Bill's not like that you know he's he's not it's not symbolism over substance Bill's the real deal and um and he was and he he actually it was a trailblazer in so many ways and no one made it easy for him uh they supported him but he had to show himself you know had to show himself and and had to earn it and that's what I like to for people to take away from this is that uh he was determined he he he was against went against a lot of odds you know racial social physical mental uh but he was determined and he you know you don't you don't get anywhere by feeling sorry for yourself no or making excuses of why you can't do it true right absolutely so he was and he didn't as he was a gentleman at the same time he didn't carry it on his shoulder on his sleeve you know Bill was I guess that might be a generational thing but Bill uh like James Bond of the early 50s or something you know you know James Bond or Superman once he puts on his cape he's whole he's completely different but when he puts back on his cape he's Clark Kent and he can relate very humble right right respectable and that's the kind of man he was uh when you got to talk to him other things started to come out about what he had seen and the warrior a real warrior side but uh also he was able to relate to just about anyone and he can talk about things uh uh you know without you know without being the the so-called uh I don't want to use the expression but without being overbearing as a as you know as a warrior so things I want people to take away from this is that one Bill has a great example of someone who overcame expectations the lower expectations of a lot of people but actually decided in himself was single-minded uh disciplined himself and and got the best out of himself pushed himself to get the best out of out of life I love that I love that yeah it's really interesting that you should you should end on that because one of the I'm not quite sure if it was my first or one of the I don't remember if it was my first book on the Navy SEALs but I've read um uh the um David Goggin's book Can't Hurt Me and um that was a a a a phenomenal book about um pushing yourself in fact his headline is stay hard you know because he pushed himself after he left the Navy SEALs he became a runner that ran 120 miles and then swam iron man running and swimming and doing all these different things so but yeah um uh yeah you you want to get the best out of yourself and a lot of people don't ever get the best out of themselves you know what I mean they stay mediocre so and um underachieving so yeah I mean after I read David Gogan's book I wanted to start running at 60 that's how much he inspired me yeah so awesome so that's amazing all right so where can our listeners pick up a copy of your book obviously we know it's on on Amazon but do you have a website you mentioned that you're on Instagram if you want to leave us your Instagram handle oh yes uh you know what that's an interesting one because I'm still getting used to Instagram I think it's just Rodney Walker I'll look you up and tag you okay I do have a website I'm an author with a small publishing house in Louisiana called Ewings Publishing so Rodneywalkerbooks.com is a way to find my website uh this book is not on there another book is about Rodney Walker uh Rodneywalkerbooks.com but you can get it to Barnes and Nobles you can get it uh order it through Barnes and Nobles that is online uh I've done a couple book signings and then obviously uh Amazon okay you can get the book yeah it's a it's a short read and I wanted to make it longer but you know he was Bill was called home to his reward last June and uh so I had to end the story but it's uh we're looking forward though to becoming a movie and uh there's a lot there's a lot of excitement behind that with the guy who wants to play Bill.
SPEAKER_02In fact you know he had gone out to Bill years he and he he would talk to Bill and say look tell me I want to I want to do a special ops movie please talk to me about some of your missions Bill was always saying no I'm not talking about that stuff and you know so but um then when they when the when the actor reached me he said you know I want to do his life and and some of Did he tell you about his missions he did well he told me about he told me about one and I think that's what drew the actor to in several missions Bill did a lot of different things but but this one actor has you know he was really bent on a commando film right he just has broadened himself a little bit to to talk about Bill's life and that so that's kind of the slight change there. But yeah there's a lot of action uh because he did three tours in Vietnam and just one last thing you know his last tour he was what's called a provision uh a pro that's a provisional reconnaissance unit advisor and uh he actually led as you mentioned over 100 mountain yard men who were these men who were uh there are minorities a minority group in Vietnam they're kind of castaways looked down upon not very respected living very primitively um but anyway he so Bill was able to take this group and he trained them into a commanding a fighting force where they they won recognition from their own government they they were the most productive the there's there's three categories they fulfill the most productive the most uh well there's two other ones it's not mine it's in the book and it seemed Bill's award he got a combat v award for that and they recognize what he did with these troops with these people primitive people in Vietnam so uh that's another side of the story and I hope the film brings that out because that's a that's a a triumph in itself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah yeah I love it I love it yeah the last um um uh story on on uh um uh did you see um triple eight about the women that yeah right here so as you were talking I kind of remember you know those kind of stories and those films always do very well because it it shows what you know our people had to go through to succeed in this country and the army and the navy the SEALs that type of thing so it's amazing yes so baby becomes a success like that one yeah because people really um really gravitated to that that story yep all right well um I was um uh very inspired talking to you um uh about about um Bill Goins um and I love his spirit I love his mindset I love the fact that he was determined and um yes it's it's it's a good read I'll pick up a copy myself and um keep it on my bookshelf because it's it's it's great for the younger generation that's coming up you know um uh to to hear these stories they have everything given to them now they they need to know how people have struggled to when they want something how they have to go out and get it right yes all right so I yeah so I appreciate you um writing the book appreciate you coming on the show to you know to share um information about the book and um yes I'm gonna have a summary of my conversation with Rodney on the show page which is myhelps.us I would also link out to his book and website and um uh his Instagram so that you can follow him and um get a copy of his book.
SPEAKER_02Um uh so Bill I um enjoyed I mean sorry Rodney I enjoyed talking to you you talk a lot of people I know yeah it's um good work for you know to bringing this story to life all right so as we wrap up um any last words uh no I want to thank you for welcoming me on your show and uh just kind of keep your feelings out and about the movie.
SPEAKER_00Uh yes yeah well when it's available just let me know and I'm added to the blog post so that people can go and um and um and and um you know make a copy of it. So just keep me updated and I will update the blog. All right. Okay. All right well listen thank you guys for tuning in to this week's episode of Authors Corner we were talking to Rodney E. Walker the author of America's first black navy SEAL Bill Going's Forge Through Adversity. So definitely pick up a copy and learn about our ancestors and um the life that they love and um if you are on um YouTube you see Bill I mean Rodney is holding up a copy of his book now but I will have it on the show page yes beautiful beautiful cover yes hey guys well listen thanks for tuning in until next time nameste