Welcome back to the Transform Your Mind to Transform Your Life radio podcast and television show. I'm your host, Life Coach Rennie Young, and sitting in the guest year today is Greg Orme. Greg is an award-winning business author, organizational change veteran, and keynote speaker who's delivered more than 400 talks to executive audiences around the world. He helps leaders thrive in a world of accelerating change through creative thinking and innovation. His latest book, The Human Edge, How Curiosity and Creativity Are Your Superpowers in the Digital Economy, was named Business Book of the Year in 2020. Greg was the founding CEO of London Business School's Center for Creative Business. He now delivers leadership development programs at the school with a variety of global businesses. Greg is a regular Forbes contributor, and his work has appeared in the Financial Times and BBC World News, among others. Welcome, Greg. It's a distinct pleasure to be talking to you today.
SPEAKER_00I'm delighted to be here, Mona. And I think we first came across each other, didn't we, through my one of my Forbes articles. So great to meet you.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And when I clicked on it, I noticed that you had a book that was nominated for, you know, Business of the Year, a business book of the year in 2020. So I thought, hey, you know, why can't I be forward enough to invite Greg on my show?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, and isn't serendipity great, you know, like there's an algorithm sports to get. I'm coming from you from Stratford upon Avon in the UK. You're on the West Coast. What an amazing world we live in. I'm very grateful for that.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Well, I'm grateful for you too to um to agree to be on the show. I mean, um, you know, your book is very important for it to be named Business Book of the Year. And um as we were talking before we started recording, um, it is a book, you know, specifically designed for leaders, but we're all individual leaders, you know, um we have to lead ourselves first before we can lead others. So um, you know, the first question I have here, Greg, for you is why did you write the human edge? Can you give us a little background on um your research for you know this topic and what you found that we need a human edge in this digital and computer age?
SPEAKER_00Sure, it's a great question. And uh, you know, going back, these these things take some time. Uh and so I'm going back a little while now, probably four years or so, and I'd just given a speech actually on a topic I'd become really interested in, which is well, I think one of the big issues of our lifetimes, which is what is our human relationship with this machine age that we're seeing around us? Uh, you know, in terms of the the uh smartphones that we all carry uh intimately around with us, never leave them anywhere, but also this thing called artificial intelligence in the workplace and at home. And sort of I've done this speech, uh, and as you said, I'm in the sort of leadership business. And one of the female CEOs came up to me at the end and said, Greg, I'm kind of interested in the organizational change stuff, but what about me? You know, what skills do I need to remain relevant in the next 10 years? And what about my two daughters? And uh at the time I didn't have a great answer for that question, but that was the journey, that was the start of the journey, which led to the human edge, which is really actually, even though I'm in the leadership business, I I'd like to think it's for anybody. It's like a little manual for your own humanity that even if your boss is a bit toxic, you can keep under your desk. And it's hopefully the keys to some of your own potential.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that's that's pretty good. Yeah, I remember um, you know, when the digital age um started about the mid 80s, I was um working at a bank, and um everybody was really worried about the ATM machines. They were they were being you know touted as the replacement of people in the bank. You're all gonna go to these machines. And I think they tried to go there, but it's not quite there yet. You know, I there's still lines up in the bank, even though there's you know, ATMs inside, outside, people still need to work um uh to have that human edge. So um should we be worried about uh machines taking over our jobs?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I still really interested the way you frame it, actually, Marnie, because of course, you know, we have been worried about machines as a race of humans for a long, long time. Uh, you know, I think the first anti-machine uh story was written in the Greek age uh about uh about a kind of killer robot. And so we you know we've had the terminator and all sorts of things since I forgot the terminator series, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, exactly. So we're we're worried about these things taking us over and being aggressive. And of course, somebody wise once said about technology, we always overestimate the impact of technology in the short term, but underestimate it in the long term. In the long term. And I think what we're seeing now is what's happened with a lot of this technology, AI in particular, the computer speeds that drives it, the data that feeds it, uh, and the these self-learning algorithms that make it get smarter and smarter and smarter have come together. And there's a one big exponential curve. And it's very difficult for the human brain to really get our heads around this, but we're starting to get up the really steep part of the curve. So, to answer your question, my book is quite a hopeful book. I don't think most of us should worry about AI. I think some people's jobs, if you are in a very, very simple, uh, what uh computer scientists call an algorithmic job, i.e., routine, and you can plan out every keystroke and every process within that job. So, you know, telemarketers, people who are on a script, people who are organizing data in a library, even maybe long distance lorry drivers, because autonomous driving is really AI in a car. Well, I think those jobs are going to go right in their entirety.
SPEAKER_01Including customer service, because now you can never get someone on a phone. The AI machine can have a conversation. So definitely those jobs, right? Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So customer service is a really good example, actually, for my sort of my follow-up point, which is a bit more hopeful, that actually for most of us in more complicated roles, what we're going to see uh is the AI cheese slicing away the very routine tasks that we all do, like booking flights or booking a haircut, or you know, not my case, but booking a booking a restaurant. You know, these simple things. Um and in terms of customer service, the simple things are the things that can be scripted. And that's why we're all talking to bots now every time we get in touch with a large organization. But the people that are left, what's interesting is it leaves a kind of a human-shaped hole for our careers. And so what we're seeing is that capabilities and skills that were maybe not so um admired in the in the early 80s, early 90s, late 90s, when I joined the workforce, are now being really admired. And I'm talking about, you know, it's human skills like passion, gratitude, uh, empathy, curiosity, creativity. Uh LinkedIn uh just looked at um uh sorry, just closing down my outlook because it's binging at me. It's a technology taking over. LinkedIn did an analysis of 20 million job applications in 2020, and the one thing that employers need is creative thinking. Now that wasn't happening before. And this is partly to do with technology coming into the workplace and taking the simple stuff away.
SPEAKER_01Okay, great. So creative thinking or thinking, thinking outside the box, is that what we're talking about? Or critical thinking, which is you know, two same things, really, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, actually, I think they're twin. Uh I think critical thinking, i.e., being able to analyze a situation and come up with one solution, has always been admired in the workplace. I think critical thinking, if you think of the top 10 skills, as it were, like a the hit parade, you know, they've always been up there. Creative thinking actually leads to multiple outcomes. Uh, it's a way of actually connecting one domain of knowledge over here with another, and ping, you've got a whole new innovation or idea. I mean, you think about something that was just trying to get my attention, which is Google. So, Google was actually when um Larry Page and Sergi Brin came together to put it together in the late 90s, it was actually about two ideas from different worlds. So it was about one of their fathers was actually a lecturer, uh a university lecturer, and he understood how uh university papers receive citations to get ranked higher and higher and higher. And the uh they were both into their uh understanding of this newfangled thing called the World Wide Web, and bam, they come together, and it's a new world-changing idea. And in a microcosm, that's what we're all trying to do all the time is bring things together. So that is creativity, it's slightly different, I think, from critical thinking. Critical thinking.
SPEAKER_01Okay, awesome. So the foundation of your book is about the four C's model and um and how they can help you in 2021 and I guess beyond in the digital age. So, can you talk to us about the four C's? Um, I think you mentioned a little bit about them just now, but yeah, we can formally introduce them now.
SPEAKER_00So let me give the four C's a little bit of an introduction just to sort of make them help them to make sense. My view and what I argue in the book is when you've got uh an opponent like the A, you you mentioned customer service. What the very first customer service bot uh was called uh Amelia and worked for a Swedish bank. And this is someone who actually is technically brilliant, can come up with all the solutions, and actually can speak to a million customers all at the same time. Never takes a duvet day, never gets upset, never has to go and uh uh sort of mourn a loved one, never wants time off, but work 365 days a year. So don't take that person on, right? You're gonna lose that fight. What you want to do is not compete but differentiate, differentiate from machines, and that's what the four C's is all about because these, you know, they're coming for white-collar jobs, the these this machine. So the four C's is a is a handy way to understand different areas in which we're really good. So I'll give you what they are, and then maybe we could talk about one, you know, a few of the things that make them up. So the first one is consciousness, and that's made up of the ability to find meaning in your work and also actually to find the time in a digitally distracted world. We know we're all being interrupted all the time by these things, as I was just now. The second one is curiosity, and I'll talk about that in a moment. The third one is creativity, and in a way, that's the first amongst equals. Everything is leading to the creativity, and the fourth one is collaboration, and collaboration is what you need if you are creative, because you need to come together with other human beings to get your ideas off the ground. So those are the sort of headlines of them, Myrna.
SPEAKER_01Okay, all right. So, yeah, let's go through them individually. I love the one that you started with, it was consciousness. Um, because consciousness is the big word now. Consciousness, awareness, spirituality, they're all in one big bucket. And obviously, a machine doesn't have consciousness, but how are you um how are you tagging it as a um something that differentiates us from from leaders? I mean from the machines. From machines, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh I think uh I think you put it very well. You know, machines don't ask why, do they? They'll ask you how do I do this and what you want me to do, but they don't really ask why. That is a very, very human approach to life. And what's really interesting, because in the business world, of course, the why, the purpose, uh, from a non-kind of spiritual or religious point of view, just understanding why you do things has been very powerful for probably about 20 years, hasn't it? It was it was bought in about 20 years ago. And so I got interested in terms of the book because we we've always known understanding and being able to articulate in some way your own why is hugely motivational. It releases huge power in yourself as a person. We've all met people who have a why and they're they've got shiny eyes, they they'll go the extra mile, they'll work through the night if necessary. So we've known that psychologically. And what's really interesting now, Myrna, is because we've got this new fangled science of neuroscience, we know what's going on in the brain, and we can see actually the brain lights up if you're living a purposeful life. Your best life, it releases a chemical called dopamine, which is uh the motivation molecule. And so you can really happiness is slightly different, but they are they they're co-related. Right, okay. I think um my mother always used to say, Don't aim at happiness, aim to find something that gets you there by accident. And I think that's what purpose helps you to do.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's that's the first time I've heard that. Okay, so that's awesome. All right, but yes, in fact, I was I was I was either reading a book or listening to a podcast recently, and um uh, you know, they were talking about the why, how the why is so important to motivate you because it's the only thing that is actually going to get you to your end go is if you know your why. And as a coach, you know, we put that in there when we're when we're talking to you know, clients that wants to get from here to there, um, knowing your why, because we know that if you don't have that why, things are gonna knock you off. There's things in life that's gonna come up that's gonna knock you off. So it's it's it's you know, it's pretty good um uh to as um a skill, you know, or consciousness to differentiate you from you know from the machines. And in fact, as I'm talking, I remember the movie with Mill Will Smith, um uh where they created this robot that can do everything, but um uh, you know, and and they try to put consciousness in him, but it didn't actually quite work. Um, I am legend, I think that's what it was called. But um, all right, so how does your consciousness um ask the big question, why? So the second um uh leg in your four C's is curiosity. Is that the same?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, it is, but before we go, that each of the four C's in my book is made up of kind of two things. So consciousness, and the reason I started with consciousness, if you think we're leading up to creativity, consciousness in terms of purpose, what we've just been talking about, actually, if you have that kind of huge motivation around a certain area in your life, it will give you the courage and the energy to step forward into it because we know being creative implies failure, uh, making new things, going into new areas implies failure. So you need that. The other part of consciousness in my model is actually finding the time in your day. And one of the things that I observe in all the leaders and managers that I meet, and I'm literally literally meeting thousands each year through the London Business School and elsewhere, is time management in 2021 is one of the key skills. Because if we're not careful, because of slightly ironically, the AI-enabled algorithms that drive social media, we can't find our day is shattered into a thousand pieces, and we never actually find time to be curious and creative. So I talk a lot in the book about how do you redesign your day to ensure that you have parts of it where you're not being distracted.
SPEAKER_01Okay, awesome. All right, so that is also the curiosity piece or no, that's part of consciousness.
SPEAKER_00So we've got purpose and we've got focus under the consciousness heading. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Heading, right? So curiosity, you want to talk on that one?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the reasons why curiosity, and again, it's a little bit like creativity. We were talking about earlier that CEOs and HR directors now want people to be creative. Equally, I'm seeing uh that also organizations are asking for people who are have built up their curiosity in order to drive their own learning. Uh, and in in what we've seen, I think, during the pandemic is many of the disruptors that were moving the world forward at a lightning pace have been accelerated. Uh so remote working, uh remote uh contact like this, artificial um automation, digitization of everything. And what this means is information is going past its sell-by-date at a rate that we've never seen. So, one of my former clients, the World Economic Forum, estimates that something like every 18 months or so, about 40% of what we know becomes kind of past the sell-by-date, and we need to learn new things. So the ability to learn rapidly has become hugely important for any career.
SPEAKER_01And what's not interrupting you, but I remember way back I read an article that they were saying that in 10 years, most of the things that you know now will be obsolete. So you have to learn new things. So you're just condensed down. Did you say 18 months?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, I guess 40% isn't most, is it? It's just done the most, but certainly, yeah. I remember that that cool video. I used to play, I think there was a very cool video about like all the things that have gone out of fashion. And it's effectively, we're living in a world where change is accelerating. Uh, I think most people who observe it will see that, and it's been driven a lot by technology. So the magical thing about curiosity is it's not a fixed trait. So, like, you know, you're born with blue eyes, uh, or you're born uh with certain uh physical factors, but you can't do anything about you, you know. That's you, right? Curiosity is something that you can flex and develop and grow. Yeah, so think of it more like uh the mercury in a thermometer. It goes up and down depending on who you're with, what you're doing every day. It's like a it's like a muscle, you can build it up. So what's exciting about that for me is it's very inspiring that you can become more curious. And so there's quite a few things I recommend in the book to help you to do that. Um, one of them is what it's something I call the the five-hour rule. Uh, and then we get we get into questioning. So maybe we could talk about that.
SPEAKER_01Okay, all right. So that's awesome. You know, I'm a very curious person. I grew up asking questions, and when I was a young person, people would always say, You're asking too many questions. So I've got the, you know, little kids to tell you stop asking questions. And there's a time when I did stop asking questions, but you know, I'm in this in this role right now where that's what I'm doing. I'm curious, I'm asking questions, I'm learning. I'm a lifelong learner because I believe in learning things. You know, I love reading books, I listen to podcasts every day. So I'm continuing increasing and learning because I'm a curious person. But I personally think that there's some people who are just not curious. They're not born with that skill, right?
SPEAKER_00I think I think I think what happens, you know, Myrna, uh, and by the way, well, just to remind me of uh my eldest son who's now 18, but when he was in uh primary school, that's what one of his teachers told him that he said, You're asking too many questions. He came home and told me. I was like, um, so so I I think you're right. I think we're all some people are born more curious than others, and then it's fostered, uh, maybe in their home environment or whatever. But um, they've done studies on children. Uh, nearly 99.9% of children are born as curious learners. You know, they're they're you know, anyone who's had a kid will tell you these they're asking a lot of questions. In fact, it's hundreds of questions every day. So we're born curious, and then the environment sometimes knocks it out of us. So the key is to make sure that you foster it and bring it forward. And it's funny that you should mention questions because that is one of the key things I give as advice. But it's a certain type of question that is the most important thing to ask, which is uh have you come across open questions versus closed questions in your training? So because you're a coach, aren't you?
SPEAKER_01And also I have an episode on the show with that, right? Yes, open questions, right?
SPEAKER_00So this is what um, you know, and coaches and journalists, of course, you know, I was a journalist once myself. I taught that as from the start. I mean, of course, closed questions, which lead to yes or no answers, have a function in life, they're quite useful for checking information if you're a prosecution lawyer or if you're a journalist on some occasions. You want to straight yes or no answer? It's uh it's an intentional choice. You want a creative conversation with other people, if you want to expand people's curiosity around you, open questions are really powerful. And that's questions like you know, uh, how might we do this? What if we tried it this way? Have you seen what those guys are doing over there? What do you think we could do that too? And so what we're doing. Here is trying to certainly if you're a leader or a manager, trying to get people leaning in and talking to you. So I sort of go into the questioning technique of how uh that can really help you not only to inspire your own curiosity, but to spark it in the people around you as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's pretty good. That's awesome. All right, so um uh we're into creativity now. Um, and I know that that is like a top thing that that you know um that leaders need um and employers are looking for because they want thinking outside of the box. They don't want a robot. So I'm glad that you brought it up as a way to differentiate yourself from the robots, because if you're if you're if you're not creative, then you're right. They can have these systems, which you know, um a lot of people were um, you know, business leaders were all talking about systems, um, because then they can get anybody to run it, kind of thing. So maybe you can talk about systems there too, as far as the creativity, now that it just popped into my head.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Well, I I think one of the reasons why my uh the sort of thinking that my book's based on is it's is really in vogue in organizations because, of course, organizations need systems, they also need bureaucracy to run them because they're very large entities. But what most of the organizations that I'm working with across multiple industries are trying to do is also trying to find the space where there are fewer rules and that they can encourage people to come with their ideas. And so the four Cs can work individually for yourself to develop uh more creativity. But if you apply them and then demonstrate that behavior to the people around you, you can create little microclimates in businesses where creative thinking is more likely. Because I think any leader or manager who thinks in this world that we're living in now that they're gonna come up with all the good ideas and everyone else is just gonna execute them uh in the world is not really gonna last very long. We need everybody to come together with their creativity. So here's a question for you, Money. You said that you were a very uh curious person. Do you consider yourself to be creative too?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, right. Yes, I do. I um I'm very creative, and my creativity comes from inspiration. You know, that's how I, you know, I uh I meditate a lot and I think I'm in in touch with awareness and my consciousness. And um I get my creativity downloaded to me. Um I'm not creative in a sense that I'm gonna go out and and design and design a useful piece of equipment that people can use. You know what I mean? I'm not creative in that way, but I'm creative um in the arts department, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, I get that. And one of the reasons I asked is, you know, this is where I did the book as as I did, because my observation and the research supports this, is there's one uh gateway, I call it the gateway drug, the creativity, and that is curiosity. So you cannot really be creative unless you're first insatiably curious. This is where the the relationship exists between them. Because curiosity, which we were just talking about that, by uh by asking questions, you're you're sort of interrogating the world and and challenging the status quo around you, but you're also importantly gathering cognitive fuel for your brain. And this is why uh, you know, if you look at the life stories of highly successful people, they all talk about curiosity and their ability to learn as a foundational skill on their road to creativity. So when I'm talking like Oprah Winfrey talked about books getting her where she is today, uh Jeff Bezos was a furious learner, Walt Disney and uh, you know, in the American world, Frank Lloyd Wright, Jack Maher over in China, these are all people that valued curiosity. So, you know, one thing I'd say to people, if they want to be creative, first be curious. And then there you effectively you need to understand uh to to allow yourself to have more ideas. Because if you look at the hyper-creative people in almost any industry, they've all got a really interesting thing in common in the fact that they don't go for better, they go for more. So this exists across domains in cooking, chemistry, technology, whatever you whatever you will. They understand there's a portfolio effect in terms of creativity. So if you allow yourself to have more ideas and write them down and collect them and realize quite a few of them aren't very good, you can then select the good ones. But if you just come to your first idea and think, well, it didn't work, so I'm not creative. That's why people start identifying themselves as not creative later in life.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I got that. A couple of things I want to circle back to. Yeah, your um one of the things that you said is, you know, having your why is if you have your why, the first time you fail, you're not gonna, you know, carte blanche that you're not creative. But when you were talking, I was thinking of the most creative person that I know. Even though I haven't read his biography, I'm actually reading Oprah's biography right now. Okay, Elon Musk, that's what I think is the most creative person. I mean, the things that he comes up with. When I said that I wasn't creative, I'm not capable of doing things like that. But I might be creative like Oprah, because we get all our stuff from spirituality and books and reading and things like that. But, you know, um uh so somebody that's listening that is creative, like Elon Musk, you know, where how does that fit in? I mean, just my curiosity asking you a question right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And I think Elon Musk is a really, I mean, obviously he's I think currently the world's richest man has as has disrupted uh multiple industries. But I think it's important to realize I I actually read his autobiography some some time ago, that even Elon Musk, as talented as he was as a young boy in South Africa before he came to Canada, I believe, and then the West Coast, is uh he he wasn't the finished article. He was someone, and this is I think the inspiring thing, you can work at your own curiosity, you can also work at your own creativity. You can build both of these things. That you know, they're not fixed, they're something that you can develop. And um, Elon Musk built his ability to think differently through uh through a lifelong of learning. I mean, you know, SpaceX, which is one of his more interesting uh ventures that you know to disrupt the commercial travel to the moon and and beyond, he he got because he was so fascinated in rocketry and space travel, he was reading old school books and then it connected because there was a guy that was trying to get some money, he actually financed it. So it's these kind of connections that, and I'm not saying we can all be Elon Musk. No, but simply maths would imply we can't all be the richest person in the world. No, no, no, right. Your own way we can make these these kind of pings, these connections in our life, but we have to be working and bringing the fuel in to make it happen.
SPEAKER_01And and being curious, yes, got you, got you. All right, so I think we're in our last C, which is collaboration. And um, you're right, that is a very human trait um to be able to gather similar or maybe opposite um characteristics and bring them in to create something big. So, how are you working it as far as um you know, as being able to well, the the credentials are obvious, you know, machines can't do that. But you know, why did you um focus on this one?
SPEAKER_00Well, um the let's just sort of think of the narrative of the whole thing. So we've talked about consciousness that gives you the energy and the motivation and the time because of the focus thing that we touched on. Curiosity gives you the fuel, creativity gives you the portfolio. Now, within the creativity thing, we we we talk, we talk, you know, in the book I talk about how you take one idea and bring it, and maybe that's the thing that you're going to really develop. It's at that point that the things are coming out of your head and into the real world. So if you look at highly successful creative people who really make an impact with their creativity, it's sort of either you know, commercial creativity or something that makes an impact, there's a great strong correlation with a couple of things. And I and I I cover two big topics under collaboration. The first is they've got a large network of collaborators. So what uh social scientists call they've got a large loose network, and it's it's shown that people with large networks, uh, as well as the small group of people that we know and love and are our close people, those people are more innovative because they've got these connections and people can help them with their ideas. So I talk about how do you how do you ensure that your network is big enough and varied enough to help you? Uh, and then I talk about experimentation, how you can take these ideas and test them very quickly, get some data on it and feedback in the real world. And let me just tell you a story about one of my favorite West Coast companies, which is Pixar. Uh, because uh when my my boys were growing up, I watched all of their movies. And what I love about the Pixar collaboration uh goes back to this idea of networking. So uh the founder of Pixar is a guy called Ed Catmull. You might have heard of him.
SPEAKER_01And he Yeah, I know the Pixar story because I read it um in Steve Jobs autobiography.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, he's Steve Jobs was the chairman of the chief executive and then the chairman, wasn't he? I mean, a lot of people don't know that, but yeah, it's one of the reasons why he got so sick, I think, is he was doing two jobs at the same time for a while. Okay. Um, anyway, he was working with Ed Catmall, who is the founder of Pixar. And Ed says that the those fantastic movies that turned out to be Toy Story and everything else, he calls them ugly babies when they first come along. And what he means by that is those ideas, when they're first written down as a concept, are not good, they're misshapen, they're not very attractive. And they have a thing in um Pixar called the brain's trust, and that's a group of about 12, 15 people. The ideas come to this brain's trust, and the brain trust help the person with the idea to try and improve it here, to take bits out, to put bits in. And I think that's very inspirational to the rest of us. If those guys in Pixar, who are some of the most successful creative people on the planet, they need the help of other people to really bring their ideas to fruition. So I guess in the book, what I'm saying is what is your brain's trust? Who are the people that you've turned to when you've got a great idea and you need some proper feedback on it?
SPEAKER_01That's a good visual image because we know that when you're doing a movie, you have to get all these people into collaboration in order to do it. I mean, you were talking with Pixar and animations, but even in a regular movie, you need um a whole bunch of people in order to make it great, you know? So um, yeah, the you can write the book or you can write the script, but it's not gonna come across on uh the TV unless you collaborate with other people. So I'm understanding what you're saying. And and they do go through that brain thrust as you're talking about as they're sitting down and figuring out how they're gonna present the movie and produce it and all that kind of stuff. So so that is awesome. So I now understand why um your book, you know, was business book of the year, because you were talking about skills for leaders, skills for people, skills for, you know, um preventing yourself from being obsolete, which you have a great story. I read that. Um you didn't talk about it, but apparently um what I read about you is that you were redundant in 2008. And that's basically what what um took you on this journey. So, you know, when we learn these skills, it it almost kind of insulates us from being redundant.
SPEAKER_00Don't you agree? Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, that's a you know, my story, like most people's, is the the parts of my life that didn't kind of work out the way I thought they did, but was the parts of my life that that I learned the most. Uh and I I guess that's in a way, that's the spirit of the book, and the spirit of true creativity is that actually it's the bits where you go wrong in the creative process where you can learn the most and move forward the most. And that's true for entrepreneurs or or anybody.
SPEAKER_01Okay, all right. So um so how can we use curiosity to learn faster?
SPEAKER_00Well, um, it's interesting. You you're coming back to curiosity. I think one of the things that um I recommend is actually based on one of the icons, I think, of executive learning, uh, which is Bill Gates of Microsoft. And why I love Bill Gates so much is that when he was at the height of his power, his commercial power, uh was probably the late 90s when he was still the executive chairman of Microsoft. And so what he would do, uh, even though he was a very, very rich man, he was already made it, as it were, at the top, he would still take two weeks off a year, two separate weeks, and he would call these think weeks. And he would go to an isolated cottage on the west coast, uh, north, north part of uh the west coast of the the US, and he would have his meals delivered under the door, and he would just read white papers and books of uh from people in in Microsoft. And it was said he said it was this these times of kind of pure curiosity and isolation that gave him the the ideas that drove the success of Microsoft for for the decades in which he was in charge. So that's good. You know, obviously we can't all do that, right? We can't all just take a week off here and there. We can't get two weeks vacation, we can. Yeah, but you know, I mean, I I I guess we're not all the executive chairman of Microsoft. However, you know, my translation of that is is what I call the five-hour rule. Uh, and that is if you think about your week, could you find five hours for your own learning and education or your own exploration, whatever you want to call it? So, you know, podcasts or TED Talks or or business books uh or or or something that's bringing this in. Because if you did that five hours a week over 52 years, uh 52 years, 52 weeks, you know, that really builds up over a year or two. I think it's life changing. And I think that is something in 2021, when the world is changing so fast, we all need to be actually self-guided learners. Um, and and that's an important skill to learn.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Well, you know, it's interesting. Now I I call myself a lifelong learner because I am extremely curious. I think we've established that, but I'm learning all the time. You know, I walk an hour every day, and when I'm walking that hour, I have something in my ear. I'm either listening to a book or I'm um I'm listening to a podcast, and then everybody sends me things to learn on webinars and and whatever, and I'm like, I'm like learning all the time. And um yeah, so I'm doing definitely more than five hours a week, but it has helped me in what I do because when I come on and speak to a guest, I'm able to have an intelligent conversation because I'm learning things and I'm learning a whole bunch of things. Um, and I and I can speak on several different topics. But for someone that is uh a CEO of a company, he also needs that skill. He also needs to be relevant, he also needs to learn things, you know, um, whether it's he's learning it from his employees as they bring him ideas, or he's learning through, you know, the media. So that is that is awesome.
SPEAKER_00All right, like that's why I like Bill Gates so much because you know, obviously he was a billionaire even then in the late 90s, right? The idea that he still realized that he wasn't the finished article. I think there's a great book called Mindset. Um, that uh it talks about this. Are you a do you think you're the finished article? You're just born with all your skills and that's it, uh, which is fixed mindset, or are you somebody that actually understands if you put the time in, you can grow in all sorts of different areas. So it sounds like you're thoroughly growth mindset, uh Mana. And I think that is the way to be. Uh, you know, I think the really most successful people are like that.
SPEAKER_01Oh, well, thank you for that. I appreciate that. All right. Well, um uh we're coming almost to the end of our time. We're having such a great chat. But um uh so tell our audience right now how they can um, you know, get a copy of your book. Um, I know that you mentioned it you you speak all around the world to talk about, you know, how they can contact you if they're if they're interested in in you speaking at you know one of their um executive functions, things like that.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Uh well thanks for the opportunity. Well, um if if people want to check out my work, it it'd be a great idea to just go to my website, which is uh Greg Orm, uh G-R-E-G-O-R-M-E dot or G uh or one uh Or one word and then dot O R G. And there, you know, you can see some videos of me speaking, or you can actually get in touch with me through the get in touch function. And there's one other thing that I've just launched that's really taking off, which is a thing called the Curious Human. So this is a complimentary uh email straight to your inbox once a month that is the kind of byproduct you were talking about your podcasts, you know, byproduct of a business writer's life. So because I'm always writing my Forbes pieces or my new books, uh, you know, I've often got a great podcast I've heard or an interesting book, an article, or a video. And what I do each month is I share that in a two-minute kind of bulletin to the people who've signed up. So they can do that if they would like to. Uh at the bottom of every page, there's a space where you can sign up. And if they'd like to follow me on social media, I think the best place is where I'm most active is on LinkedIn. Uh, and I'm at Greg Orm uh on LinkedIn, and I'd be delighted to connect with people that way too.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And also, I guess go to Forbes. I've got my own uh sort of uh regular column on Forbes. Uh if you put Greg Orm Forbes, uh, I will come up and I'm writing regularly on Forbes too.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I noticed that. So that's absolutely amazing. So honored to have you um talk to me today. And obviously your book can be found on Amazon, right?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yes, I for I forgot the book, but no, it the book is on Amazon and pretty much anywhere where you can buy books online. You can get the book. The human edge, Gregorm, you put it in Amazon, it will come up.
SPEAKER_01Great. So that's awesome. All right. Well, listen, thank you, Greg, so much for this very illuminating conversation. You know, again, I learn uh, you know, from my guests every time, you know, so on. I even add that to my curiosity and to my learning model because I learn from, you know, every time I have a conversation with it with um a guest. So thank you so much for coming on the show. Um wish you much success in your endeavors, um, in your book and in your articles. And I definitely follow you and um get some of your articles. I'll sign up myself for the newsletter. Um, so thanks again. Any last words?
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, just thank you for having me. It's it's always nice to connect with a fellow curious explorer of the world, and you sure are that, Myrna. So lovely to meet you all the way from uh you the United Kingdom. And uh I look forward to to staying in touch.
SPEAKER_01Yes, okay. So thank you very much. All right. Well, listen, guys, um, thank you so much for tuning in to the Transform Your Mind, to Transform Your Life radio podcast and television show. Um a transcript of my conversation with Greg will be on the show page, which is blog.myhelps.us, and it will also have links to his book and also to his website and his social media links. So thanks again for tuning in. And until next time, blessings.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Matt.