When Change is Mandatory, Who Wins?

Some change you choose. This isn't that. The accounting industry is having change done to it right now, and the two biggest culprits are regulation and AI. AML, KYC, tax agent linking, none of it was on anyone's wish list, it just landed on the desk with a due date. Same with AI, whether you're ready or not, it's already in your software, your clients' inboxes, and their expectations.

In this episode Aly and Andrew ask the obvious question. When you're forced to change, who actually wins? Is it the firms who move fast, the regulators, the software vendors quietly adding a line to the invoice, or the clients turning up with robot generated advice and asking you to bless it for free?

We dig into what the new rules really cost beyond the compliance box, how AI helps when it's useful and annoys everyone when it isn't, and how to come out the other side credible, sane, and still running a firm you actually like.

Pour a bevvy, pull up a log, and tell us, which forced change is winning at your place right now?

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Transcript

Cold Open And Dog Banter

SPEAKER_06 0:00

Ailey.

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Yes, Andrew.

SPEAKER_06 0:02

I'm not I'm not feeling the best lately. I um I accidentally swallowed some food colouring.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 0:11

The doctor says I'm okay though.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Oh that's good.

SPEAKER_06 0:14

I I feel like I died a bit inside though.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

What colour dye was it, by the way?

SPEAKER_06 0:21

It's probably gonna be red food dye if you're gonna Yeah, if you're gonna die inside. You're gonna die inside. You're red.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Yeah, fair enough.

SPEAKER_06 0:28

Do you like that one? That was like half one.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

No, it was good. I I it was long. I didn't know where I was going. I'm going with a simple puns here. I know, and I really enjoy I'm really enjoying it because I'm getting it straighter. You don't have to think. It's not overly complicated. There's not some like little mental gymnastics going on in my brain.

SPEAKER_06 0:44

We do have a guest here. I have to I have to see if I can't. Oh no, he's running, he's moved away.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Gil. Yeah, he's going.

SPEAKER_06 0:52

Alright, well, Ali's dog Gil is um hanging out with us and he's been somewhat obsessed with me. Somewhat obsessed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Oh my word.

SPEAKER_06 0:59

I was gonna I was gonna get him.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

If he could have jumped up into your arms and you could have rocked him like a baby, he would do that right now.

SPEAKER_06 1:04

Little, little, little, uh, little tiny dog though, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, he's a Boston. Nothing like your big fella.

SPEAKER_06 1:08

Well, mine's just a big version of him, pretty much. Do you think? With a tail.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Harland Bark.

SPEAKER_06 1:14

Harland Bark. Anyway, yes, so this we're we're talking part two of our the change in services we deliver, but this version is that are forced upon us by our industry, by technology, by our clients, and so on.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

And I think it needs to be a trigger warning of rabbit holes and rants to come.

SPEAKER_06 1:33

Yeah, I think I think I think I'm gonna do my best to look at this in a positive way. So pleased you are. Let's not just bring the whole, oh, we have to fucking do all this shit and it's not true, rabbit. We always do that. It's just permanent. Um, but it's it's the opportunities that come because of what's being what's being forced upon us that otherwise our industry would not have improved or we would not have done those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Okay, Mr. Positivity. Good stuff done. Do you think there's such a thing as toxic positivity?

SPEAKER_06 2:02

I feel like sometimes I don't I'm not positive enough, so maybe I ooze too much of it here.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

No, we're all good. All right, do we need to theme tune it?

SPEAKER_05 2:10

We probably could go just a theme tune.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Theme tune.

SPEAKER_05 2:12

It's a thing tune, Dave.

SPEAKER_06 2:28

All right, Ellie.

Why Forced Change Feels Relentless

SPEAKER_06 2:31

There's there's always change. There's always things that are forced upon us. Uh there is so much happening now.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Don't even think the word forced. It just doesn't sound like it's something you want. Yeah, it's not.

SPEAKER_06 2:44

You don't have a choice. There's no choice to choice.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

And look, I think if I'm just being super honest, we've had an enormous amount of change. And I would say COVID kind of kicked it off, and we haven't really had a break since that time. And I know that there are a lot of people in the industry that are fatigued, overwhelmed, looking to exit. But like you said, we do need to take, I guess, that positive spin of what is has it delivered. And some of it might have delivered benefits, some potentially not. But if we look at, I guess, force change, are we saying force change in the last six to 12 months? Are we looking at force change moving forward?

SPEAKER_06 3:22

I would say like the current climate, which I would say last 12 months, next 12 months, that kind of thing. Like, let's look at that period. And if I give a good like a good example of that force change where you don't get a choice, we can go back to like lockdown vibes, right? We can go back in the day. Uh, you know, as an accounting firm, we were already dealing in the cloud, we were already somewhat hybrid remote, we already kind of flexible, we already had that environment. Yeah. Um, but at that point we were forced to do it. Yes. Um, and so collectively everyone did, but that's that's that kind of example I think we we're kind of giving out here, but more of a permanent force change where it's like, yeah, you you might have done it if you chose to, but you have to do it now, and and therefore it's not necessarily on your terms.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah. And

AML And KYC Add Friction

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I think, you know, obviously we've had a lot of change in the legislative type bracket. And if we're looking at, you know, the KYCs, the AMLs of the world, like. Well, the anti-money laundering is obviously a huge one. And I think any webinar that's being run, we're recording this in March, but any webinar that's being run is just getting hundreds and hundreds of attendees because people are in this midst of, oh my gosh, here's another thing that I actually have to get on top of, otherwise I'm in trouble. And from my perspective, is it delivering value to the client? I think it's just adding extra admin.

SPEAKER_06 4:39

That I'm challenged the most by this AML CTF stuff is uh it removes an element of relationship.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah, it makes it very transactional very early.

SPEAKER_06 4:51

And it and it means that if certain things happen, you can't go back to the client to clarify. You have to report. So you can't be like, hey, this doesn't look right. I'll have a chat with you to understand and go, okay, let me help you to work this, work through this. Could it simp could simply just be that they misspelled something on a transaction or whatever, or or so that you you you can't do that, and if you don't do that, you can get in trouble. Big big trouble. And then it's like, great. So the relationship element that we are building the trust we build with our clients and the way that we work with them.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

But even in the industry, if it's if we're daubing in somebody else, you know, like that's gonna cause distrust.

SPEAKER_06 5:26

Dobbin you in, Ali.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

I'm doubbing you in you in for wearing DD D stuff.

SPEAKER_06 5:31

Uh just too bloody good and stuff, it's just unfair. You're making us all look bad. Dop it. Um how can someone so old be good?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Oh my gosh, here it is.

unknown 5:41

Gotta get it in.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Oh wow. So yeah, I think it's gonna cause change. But I, you know, I even look at the tax agent linking. Oh, for goodness sake, like what a burden that's put on the client on boarding process. And it's made what used to be a really joyful experience potentially of bringing a new client on and getting them into your culture and vibe and giving them a really good experience is just tainted by the admin crap that you have to kind of get on top of.

SPEAKER_06 6:10

Look at the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

What's the opportunity?

SPEAKER_06 6:12

I'm gonna come visit you on site, client, and together we will onboard you. Is that how you do it? I've done it how you've done that a few times. For clients where it's doable, you now you now get to be in their space, which very rarely happens these days. It does rarely.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

I used to go a lot more than I do now.

SPEAKER_06 6:29

You should you show the client uh a level of knowledge on things that are technical and weird, just simply onboarding that they don't see uh and and you get eyeballs on what's actually going on in round place. So there's the opportunity. Now, if you uh like me in the Mornington Peninsula and you pick up a client like we uh we do free recently, free well, frequently in like Queensland, you ain't just gonna be like, Hey yeah, see you next week, but just jump on a plane so we can onboard you.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

But at the same time, it's but it's this extra layer of cost that you know is a client willing to pay for that, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:57

And that's where um the idea of like things that are forced upon us, um charging onboarding fees and the like, which are becoming more and more common. Um, either people will charge an onboarding fee or they'll just increase their standard fees, uh, is something that uh a lot of people have chosen to do because of all this additional work that we have to do. The AML, the the linking, the all the stuff that we have to do here. It's a simple thing.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

And I think maybe if I'm looking at the positives, the other positive is it makes you try to be as efficient as possible and put all the systems and processes in place. So things that potentially you weren't looking at before might have been a bit of a hotch-pot-hop mess. Yeah, you've had to really knuckle down on getting that process right. And so it kind of can help you to refine your onboarding and actually making conscious choices around that.

SPEAKER_06 7:44

Is I mean, and and obviously some of the reasons they're looking to do this is to get rid of like some of the yahoos in the industry. Now I love my industry, but there are some yahoos out there.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah, but I reckon they're still there. They're just ignoring these new things, whereas all of the followers like us and all the good guys.

SPEAKER_06 7:58

But there's a point where they can't ignore it. There's a point where they're like, you have this registration, you need to do these things, you're not, you have not done it, you no longer have registration, right? So, like hopefully some of the benefits of that stuff is it will it will remove those who are not serious about this being their career.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

I have to, you know, like even with the tax agent board and and your tax agent registration and what you now have to comply with. Um, and you know, I know that you know we were able to in some ways scale back some of it, but it was getting to the point where if you if in if you were seeing a psychologist that had some type of mental health, you had to kind of fess up and say it. Like but no, I'm not joking.

SPEAKER_06 8:35

I know, but if you have to laugh about that as like something they would think you gotta do.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Yeah, but it's it's even with um you know, potentially family matters outside of um your work that you're then having to potentially, if there's any core matters going on, you've actually got to say it, right? Like this is ridiculous. It's it's moving into private spaces. And so I think that there are levels where you know some of this stuff is okay, but you know, to try and get the cowboys out, but then it's like so encompassing and so ridiculous and so prohibitive and so restrictive. It's like, come on, like we're human beings.

SPEAKER_06 9:07

What's the good stuff that's getting forced on us? What's

Finding Value Inside Compliance

SPEAKER_06 9:09

the stuff you go, you know what? That's good. And from a I mean from a industry regulation perspective. What's the stuff you go, you know what, I'm actually okay with that.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

You tell me.

SPEAKER_06 9:19

I know I asked the question, you have to go first.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Are we talking the government regulation type stuff?

SPEAKER_06 9:25

Anything and everything, anything it like industry regulation, government, professional bodies, what's the change that's been pushed on us that we that you sit there and go, you know what? That's actually not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Look, I I actually see why they're doing the K like the KYC and the AML stuff, like because you do need to know your client and you can't just turn a blind eye. Like I get that. And so, you know, from a whole of society perspective, I totally understand that that's something that needs to be done. And look, you know, the the banking and they've already had to go through these types of things. So how do I see the benefit from banking apart from just making loans harder? I don't know. But look, that that could be a positive.

SPEAKER_06 10:08

Yeah, and I think the way I look at it is the idea around what they're doing uh I think is not a bad thing. The execution around it is often where the challenge comes into play. You know, the way that they can't differentiate between a big four accounting firm and a sole trader um who works out of their basement. And I looked at that. And this same expectation of like reporting and processing stuff. And there's there's and and I appreciate that the understanding is there's there's still at the end of the day, our clients are the ones that are impacting, I suppose. So we need to be held to a certain level of standard. But at the same time, it's the reality is is like we we we don't do the kind of work that happens there.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

No, and look, I've worked in big for mid-tiers where the onboarding was similar to this, where you had to go like there was like a grand or two on the whip before you even started the job because you needed to make sure and do all your risk checks. So it's taking that level, and I understand why you do it at that level because the clients are huge, that like the risk is large, but we're taking it down to the mum and dad businesses of the world that can hardly afford an accountant sometimes, let alone like all of the other stuff.

SPEAKER_06 11:17

And of course, we can't trick it to know if like the burden on the the bigger round of town, the mids and the tops uh of adjusting to AML, if there's any real impact on their own. No, I think there is because their legal teams would be all over it, and so there's definitely what I mean is it's all over it, but they would just be like we already kind of do this, like 80% of it.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah, but it's like ch it's like moving the Titanic and its direction. Like it's hard to bring even the smallest amount of change and risk in those organizations, so and changing any process. So I think that they'll have a different burden. Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_06 11:50

Um, it'll be kind of the same, but in uh they'll be made more skilled and prepared to manage it, but it they might it might be harder to actually get people to adopt it.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, and I think everyone's taking a different perspective, like we're all grappling with it. Like I heard the other day that somebody's just gonna say, Oh, I'm all the registered office for the company, I'm just gonna push it back to the client so I don't have to deal with it. And it's like, well, that's a really, you know, well, maybe that's one thing, but there's still other things, you know, like you you're still going to be creating structures, etc. You're still gonna need to understand and know your client. So um I think in that regard, like it's you can't be too simplistic on these things.

SPEAKER_06 12:26

Yeah, it'll remove one out of 1,000 things that's standards.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

But software will software will come to the party and help us to be efficient. But do you know what? Even let me get back to this, like payday super, for instance. Employment Hero just said there's going to be a you know a 20 cent charge on every you know, super run.

SPEAKER_06 12:45

Like now, if you're paying weekly for like the number of employees, like twenty twenty cents per employee per transaction or I can't remember, but I think it was I think it's per run. But I mean I get it, because these software companies it is, but also there's cost to them. There's now a price that they have to do.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

But then we have to then pass that on.

SPEAKER_06 13:06

We do.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Right. And so it ultimately it impacts the client, it impacts us, like um. Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_06 13:20

Sorry, Ellie's compu computer dinging in the background. No, sorry about that. Yeah um yes, yes, but it it is like this is what a lot of process change drives is that it often results in significantly more costs at the end of the day because well, the only way technology is going to be able to deliver it is if someone's paying for the technology to exist in the first instance.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah, but this is where the loan writers of the accounting world and the small firms are suffering. True. Because it's just eating away a margin, because a lot of times they don't want to increase the price to clients, they want to give a really fair value to their clients.

SPEAKER_06 14:01

And so But if you also think about like those sole traders are the most profitable accounting firms out there because they ain't got any costs, they're not paying any wages, they're probably not paying any rent, like they are running at like an 85% like profit, whereas you kind of start going up and then you find yourself at like 30% and then 20% and then 10%, depending on where you where you're all sitting, like so, yes, there is a burden, but then but for them that that profit is their livelihood, as opposed to in scaled firms, that profit is the cream, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Not necessarily and I guess it you know, in that change the burden is completely on them, whereas in larger firms you can kind of ameliorate that burden by shifting between different people, but yeah, and look that that's the legitive

AI Hype Versus Real Work

SPEAKER_00 14:43

stuff. But if we look at what else is kind of being shoved down our throat at the moment, it's AI.

unknown 14:48

I know.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Big deep breath, Andy. We're gonna go there, drop down the rabbit hole with me.

SPEAKER_06 14:52

I'd kind of we're we're doing an episode on AI, and I told Allie I'm not gonna, I'm gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna bring Amy and Will in to talk about it because like obviously they look after the tech side of the conversation. But there's a there's a bigger part of the tech.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

No, but there's there's more than the tech on AI.

SPEAKER_06 15:10

I know there is, I know, I understand, and I guess what but there's cultural shifts. My my challenge is is the is the the just a lack of authenticity, creativity, and joy that I'm seeing now as a result of continued adoption of baseline level AI usage.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

And this is the AI, this is the worst we're ever gonna see in our lifetime. Like, do you know what I mean? Like it it's gonna it will, we hope it'll get better and better and better. But I'm not sure that what you've just said it'll fix.

SPEAKER_06 15:42

I don't know if it will. And and and when I say that, I mean from from the way I view it. And and part of that is like us as as practitioners, as humans, we need to adjust and change to deal with the change that's thrust upon us too. If we keep sitting there and go, meh meh meh meh meh, it's like, well, look, suck it up, princess. At the end of the day, this is what it is. You just gotta find a way to operate within that space and to be happy and to be comfortable. And that's why we see some people leave the industry, and that's why we see some people double down into it and other people get stuck in the middle. But um, but yeah, like I think You also have to work out where you are on that curve.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Are you an innovator, as in you're gonna create it? Are you an early adopter, as in somebody else is gonna create it and you're gonna use it? Are you mainstream? Are you a laggard? Like, you've got to work out where you sit on that spectrum as to, but there's definitely a lot of pressure I'm finding.

SPEAKER_06 16:31

I'm the bloke out the back drinking whiskey.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

You know, tell me when you tell me when it's better! Tell me when it's actually good. I don't want to waste my time on this shit. I got family to hang out with.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

And I get it. And so you would you would you want to be in the mainstream for us?

SPEAKER_06 16:45

Don't get me wrong, I utilize it a lot. Don't get me wrong. Like utilise it a lot in a few years.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Like you tell me some of the benefits you've received so far from using AI.

SPEAKER_06 16:55

Uh, it really assists me when I'm trying to use software and I can't figure out how to fuck to use it.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

But what about do you do you use transcription tools for meetings?

SPEAKER_06 17:04

I do, but I very rarely go back to them.

unknown 17:07

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

But do you then get data from that meeting that you can then feed onto the team and the clients?

SPEAKER_06 17:13

I don't do client meetings.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Oh, anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_06 17:16

So I'm in growth meetings, so I'm in new client meetings and new client conversations. But you know, that data can exist there. So if I'm handing work over, it's like, hey, here's a new client, there's the thing, go over, listen to it if you need, or read the summary. So yes, there's definitely benefits there.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

What about in your when you're in your creative space and you've hit it? Yeah, maybe when you're in your creative space and you've hit a roadblock, does it help you to kind of work past that?

SPEAKER_06 17:37

It can, yes, it can. What if you Oh, it means that I don't get RSI potentially because I'm not typing all my notes.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

That's good. Oh my gosh, so good. There we go.

SPEAKER_06 17:45

Think about the physical benefits of the You should go to an undiscussed benefit of AI. That is an undiscussed benefit of agile. You're all typed.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

You are correct. Oh my fucking jeans. But what about, you know, if you use the AI to be devil's advocate to bring some level of diversity to help you to think outside the square or the box that you live in? Does it help in that regard?

SPEAKER_06 18:06

I would I would argue both yes and no, in yes that it can, but no, you have no idea if it's accurate, correct, or actually relevant at all. So by the way. I would get much better having a devil's advocate conversation with you than I would with AI.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah. But I find it helps me to do to kind of see things in a different way, to reframe things sometimes. Yeah, look, it does. To take the emotion out of the motivation.

SPEAKER_06 18:32

And I still get a lot of benefit out of it. And it's it's it's definitely good there. I think the the frustration that I I have, and I had a good old rant with AI the other day about it. I was like, hey, here's the deal. Fucking hate II. And I don't mean that in it, it's just I what I hate about it is I hate about uh seeing so many people assume they know more than they actually know, make decisions based off incorrect information, uh, remove authenticity, pretend to be creative, and we've we've just got this flood of noise that actually is more stressful and more anxious for most people out there because of what it is, and this fear of missing out is becoming bigger and bigger and bigger. And and what we're saying is we're saying you are not good enough. You need this to be good.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

But it's trying to improve productivity, but it's making it hard, it's it is at levels and times making it harder because you're then having to well, we I think we're pushing on people, you've got to be more productive, you have to be more efficient.

SPEAKER_06 19:30

But sometimes that's a opportunity to know more, we expect you better do more, and you can like I said, it's it's it's telling it's telling people that they're not good enough now. You are not good enough for what you do.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And it's a business owner pushing down, isn't it? Because they're wanting more efficiency.

SPEAKER_06 19:45

At times it might be helping the employee, but yeah, and and a lot look tell me a lot of that AI is there is because of the regulation stuff that's been pushed on us. It's like crap, how do I figure all this out? I don't have time. Cool, I'll dump it in AI, it'll summarise it out for me. Great, that's super handy. Yeah, or these clients got these questions, how do I answer them? Great, AI will help.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

It's a starting point, but you still need to have somebody that right now, you still need to have somebody at that back in reviewing and quality.

SPEAKER_06 20:06

Well, so there is the pressure that's being pushed on us there.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

There's definitely an amount of pressure. And look, I think the other thing that's really crapping me off is AI being pushed into software for AI's sake, but is it actually delivering anything?

SPEAKER_06 20:17

No, yeah. I reckon I had a conversation, oh it would have been like six, seven years ago.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Six, seven, six, seven, we've got kids.

SPEAKER_06 20:30

That's done now. No, my kids are like, Dad, that's so 2025. I know, like don't even go there. Um, but I remember having a conversation maybe six, seven years ago when I was overseas at one point, and some guy was some guy was like, Oh, blah, blah, blah, AI. And I'm like, man, it's not AI. You just you're literally like right in the back end telling the software that says, Oh mate, if he says how much is this, then answer it this way. Now it's it's evolved dramatically out of what it is.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

I don't know if this is real or not. It's most probably conspiracy theory. And look, I've been going down a lot of rabbit holes. I should have a tin hat right now. But they were saying that the automatic cars in America, apparently, every now and again they'll have to, there are people in like um uh India or Philippines actually having to auto, like actually stepping in and having to do things to control it, and it's not just all AI, but I think that might be a huge rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_06 21:19

But I mean that could be a huge rabbit hole. Like it is. Did you also know that the government said if you don't post something on Facebook about your private cover that they'll steal it?

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah, I did that when I was also filling out my pen panel and just sending it on to 10 people because I don't want to get the bad.

SPEAKER_06 21:34

But I'm starting to see it come from like people in their mid to late 30s. I'm like, dude, that's supposed to be for your grandparents. What are you doing? Come on now.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Look, it is getting hard for the grandparents to know what's real and what's not. And this is what I've actually noticed. The young kids, like my kids are like, oh, that's not real, that's fake. Like that's their first go to, it's fake. Whereas my parents are like, oh no, that's real. And so that's a good point.

SPEAKER_06 21:54

Because our parents' generation, and even us as well, Galli. Your generation, I'm a bit of a.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

I just fell into it.

SPEAKER_06 22:01

I'm a millennial, you're not. That's right. You're a gen, something or other.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

But I don't even know what I am. Yeah. General.

SPEAKER_06 22:07

Oh stop.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

I'm so young inside.

SPEAKER_06 22:10

You are. But much more trusting. You know, completely. Gone through life and an experience where you would say the general consensus was that people were here for good and were helpful. And you know, if you were in a business transaction, it was about that. But but now in my generation and earlier, there's more of a perspective of that could be a scam. That might be false. People are trying to reveal it. Oh, 100%. That's their go-to.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

That is their go-to. And the other thing I find fascinating is we've come from a generation that didn't have much news and it was delayed and lagged to this proliferation of oh the news, like fake news, too much. It's overwhelming. I do wonder whether we're going to get to the point where there's so much fake news we don't actually know what to believe, so we just completely check out to nothing again. And so we've gone to the world.

SPEAKER_06 22:56

That's literally what I do. I don't do news anymore. But you know what's you know what is not fake news, Ellie?

Sponsor Break

SPEAKER_06 23:01

Sponsors. Our amazing sponsors.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

This is such a good segue.

SPEAKER_06 23:05

For the spot to come. Not fake news. These amazing people. Amazing things that can help you run amazing accounting, bookkeeping financial.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Let's grow to them.

SPEAKER_06 23:18

As you all know, marketing, branding, and identity is something that's extremely important to me personally as well as my business illuminate. Ali, I know it is for you as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Important to us too. And you know what? Practice and pixels, they are the best for digital marketing, website design, and brands for accountants.

SPEAKER_06 23:33

They absolutely are. And they look after our brand here podcast too so you can have a great experience. So good. But what I love about them is they take the time to truly understand what makes your firm different within the industry so they can accelerate your growth through fantastic marketing, connecting your clients, your team, and your community for good prosperity going forward.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Absolutely. Get onto the branding practice and pixels, my friends. Yo!

SPEAKER_01 23:56

If you're still chasing invoices, did you know that Pinch automates payments directly from Zero? I did not know that. Well, that means that you get paid on time every single time.

SPEAKER_07 24:07

Does that also mean that you can offer clients flexible payment options like direct debits and even payment plans, just all without the admin?

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Damn straight it does.

SPEAKER_07 24:17

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

And the best part is it's built and supported by actual real people here in Australia.

SPEAKER_07 24:24

Oh, so if you need help, you're talking to someone who actually gets it.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Yes, and that's what we love. Thanks so much, Pinch. Thanks, Pinch.

SPEAKER_06 24:34

You know what, Ellie? Whilst I love building and growing Illuminate my accounting business, there are definitely times where I get stuck in my own head and I can doubt what it is that I'm doing. And that's where I think the value of having someone external to come and support you within your business. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Absolutely. And that's where Rob Pillins from Planet Consulting comes in. Their purpose is to enrich the lives of professional firm owners and managers and the people that they work with. How good is that?

SPEAKER_06 25:00

Absolutely, mate, whether it's workshop facilitation, professional coaching, or mentoring, Rob Pillens and the Planet Consulting crew are where it's at. So no matter where you are, get on the Planet Consulting.

Clients Expect You To Validate AI

SPEAKER_06 25:13

Alright, so Ali, we've talked about industry stuff that's thrown upon us. We've talked about AI. Let's talk about stuff your clients are forcing you to do. The change that your clients, the expectations they have, and to some extent the things that you simply can't, you can't say no to it. Like it's just like this is becoming just reality now. What are you experiencing or what are you doing now that might be different because of what your clients are asking or expecting of you?

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Yeah, I think they're well, I've got a few clients expecting that you know I can ask I can validate their AI answers, or um, which is very frustrating because. Yes, that's right. And it's way more nuanced and convoluted and usually wrong, and then you've got to convince them to have that conversation to um actually pay for it because they don't want to pay for it because they've got the AI. So I'm seeing a lot of that. I'm seeing, I guess, pushback on pricing, you know, what can the AI do? What can I do? Um, and you had a great example um that we were discussing before. Did you want to mention that one?

SPEAKER_06 26:23

Remind me of that one.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

So that was where they were wanting to do it themselves.

SPEAKER_06 26:28

Oh, the AI, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, have a client who um great, you know, great business, great people, do good stuff, and they made the call to bring the bookkeeping internally. Um, and they were gonna use uh an internal person supported by AI tools to do so.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

But this internal person had no accounting experience.

SPEAKER_06 26:45

No experience in accounting at all. They'll just give it a crack. And they were gonna build some vibe coding stuff because they've had some success building some stuff out and good on them, and they want to be at the forefront of that, which which I'm like, man, I I'd love to do that.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Forefront equals high risk.

SPEAKER_06 26:56

That yeah, high risk, and and and we had a really good conversation around the risk that's attached to that for them versus the risk that's attached to that if us as an accounting firm were to deliver it. For them, they might have to, you know, they overpay, underpay some taxes, have to get an account to fix something up. For us, we lose our business, our reputation, our license. So big, big changes there.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

And I think that that's what we need to be super aware of. And the other thing is that, you know, they might be allowed to use their data in an AI tool, whereas at the moment, you know, we can't, from privacy regulation points of view, like you know, the Claude Co-work, I'd love to use it, but I can't, like it's not a secure platform yet. So I think there are things that potentially clients may be able to do on their own versus not, but then you're gonna have the and you know, these types of people do it already. Oh no, I'll do it myself. Or can this is my absolute pet peeve. Can you train me to do it? Yeah, that's that's what I find that so offensive.

SPEAKER_06 27:49

Now, don't get me wrong, for for years and years, we've been teaching our clients how to do what it is that we do. We train them on how to do bookkeeping.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

We actually train them on how to make the quality of the data better and how to give it to us.

SPEAKER_06 27:59

Yeah, but we don't train them on the entire end-to-end process of like this is how to review something, this is how to pay attention to the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Would we would would I ask them to do that? Oh hey, I'm not gonna I don't want to buy that from you, but can you teach me exactly how you do that so I don't have to buy it from you? Like, think about that. That's rude. It's rude.

SPEAKER_06 28:15

Imagine just hitting them, hey, look, I was gonna buy your hat, but uh I'm thinking that I might just utilize AI to get it for me. Yeah, so can you just let me know how did you design it? Where did you get it? What's your colours, what's your branding, what's the biggest supplier over in China that makes it? Uh Anthea, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah, yeah, thanks so much. And and like, is that not offensive? It is like think about that for a second.

SPEAKER_06 28:38

I don't I don't think it's offensive. I think I think offensive. No, it's it's simple in it's it's unrealistic. It's like if someone did that, I wouldn't be like it's not like dude, that's offensive. I'd be like, um, what planet do you live on, dude?

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Like it's offensive in the sense of I've honed my skills for over 30 years for you to think that you can do it in five seconds.

SPEAKER_06 28:55

Oh, for us, yeah. I mean for the hat example. For us, yeah, yeah, yeah. For the hat example, it's like that's just ridiculous, really. You think that's a thing. But for us, it's like, yes, that is something that you could actually do. You could say, sh give me an end-to-end full process on how to do this particular task, and then I'll just go and do that particular task over and over again for myself. Now, we do teach our we teach people how to deliver bookkeeping. Like we we will teach people how to lodge bass, we'll teach people how to do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

We do that too.

SPEAKER_06 29:22

And typically what happens is they get to the end of the period and they go, It's too hard, I don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Or they want you to to validate it because they're not quite sure what they're looking at.

SPEAKER_06 29:31

Punch it into a vibe-coded AI tool who does it for them.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

And then confidently tells them they're right when they're wrong.

SPEAKER_06 29:37

Anyway, not talking about AI, we're talking about stuff our clients are forcing upon us.

Cash Flow Support Becomes Non‑Negotiable

SPEAKER_06 29:41

I am finding that clients are asking for more and more and more cash flow-based um uh support. More and more. And when I say cash flow, it's it's how is my cash flow? Where is my cash flow? How much can I spend? How much can I buy myself? Yeah, there's a lot more questions about the movement of their cash to they want you to lock in a number.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

They don't want a you know, like a gauge or a guide or a what this and that.

SPEAKER_06 30:04

Not happy. I mean, not happy, like you you educate them on the fact that the number going to tell you is wrong, the process is gonna be wrong because it's all about future prediction. But we are seeing a lot of that, which which is I actually really like that because I look at that, that that's really good insight. If I'm now starting to see more and more people are uh asking for almost the same kind of thing, we can now build a product that hopefully can deliver the said thing out to them and we try to be as efficient as we can in delivering that. That's that's opportunity, I think.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

When you're hearing your clients asking or expecting of things in a consistent way, you go, maybe it's not them, maybe it's so are you using the tools that are currently there, like the SIFT or the zero cash flow or the budgies, or you know, are you using those tools?

SPEAKER_06 30:47

Yeah, yeah, our team, I mean I'm not. Um but yes, our team are you utilising elements of that as but they're still so pissable.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Sorry.

SPEAKER_06 30:54

I'm not saying budgies, but um the the the with the cash flow putting information into a spreadsheet and being able to manipulate every single tiny little element of everything, you have ultimate control over that. The ability to be comfortable with a cloud-based, automated, technology-based platform that does cash flow, you will it will always be wrong and it will never quite have the flexibility you want. So this is the challenge. Whenever you're building technology, you either build it for the 70% of what it can do if you're gonna go public, or you build it for the 100% of what you want to do yourself. And that's the challenge of using any go-to-market tool, is you'll never do everything you want to do.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

And that's the issue with cash flow, which I've I've always struggled with, is that there isn't really a tool out there that does that effectively, and you do have to go back to Excel every time.

SPEAKER_06 31:39

But that's and that's the thing, is is is it's understanding and working with clients in this space. It's like here is a tool that you can utilize. And and I remember chatting with Shane because he's he does a lot of this stuff with his e-commerce clients, and uh it was like, well, hold on, if we're just telling them to use like zero cash flow manager, for example, if you tell them to use the cash flow manager in there, what is that is that all it's like well no, it's not that because like yes, the tool can pull out a bunch of information, but it doesn't know all the predictive stuff, it doesn't know all this other stuff that hits there and actually impacts the cash flow.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

The closest I've ever seen is budgie, and they're still refining that tool. And so I think that that's a really good daily cash flow, and that's the other thing. Like, you've got your spotlights and fads and whatever that um look at like months ahead and years ahead, but sometimes they just want daily, right?

SPEAKER_06 32:22

And so one day, one week, one month, which is where it kind of budgie sits in.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

But what I find with a lot of cash flow is clients are like, Oh, I'll just do it myself. And here's my cash flow prediction, and it's like a spreadsheet you don't even understand, and it's just focused on PL, it's not including anything in the balance sheet, and you're like, oh my god, like their understanding of cash flow is so poor. Um, and you know, sometimes you've got to get to that senior advisor level before people can actually understand the concept of the movement of cash, and even then it's it's it's the kind of stuff. It's a really difficult thing. So I I really like that insight because I actually, now that you say that, I've been getting a lot of that too, like more than normal.

SPEAKER_06 33:03

And a lot of reporting. Now, like I said, we we uh do a lot of work with in the e-commerce space, and we do a lot of work uh kind of almost in collaboration with uh some other organizations out there that kind of deliver other elements of that. And so uh reporting, cash flow, decision making. Decision making is a bit of a. How do I help you to make a decision? You need to have better visibility on cash flow, you had to have better, better visibility on performance, not at a like a high level, not uh I turned over this much money, I had this much marketing, therefore my mirror is this. It's like no, it's more than that.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

But there's the concern there is that you become a proxy for their business, and so then you take on risk.

SPEAKER_06 33:38

Um no, the the the you gotta you've got to position yourself there. Yeah, you say my job is to give you as much information as possible so you can make the decision. Yeah, ultimately they're making the decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh no, totally get that. Totally get that.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

But I think you do need to be careful if you're getting to that point of decision making for a client.

SPEAKER_06 33:58

Totally. Like the hard thing is when you're trying to do that kind of work and you don't do the bookkeeping side of it all.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Oh, it's nearly impossible.

SPEAKER_06 34:05

Because then you're like you're spending hours and hours and hours trying to build back up. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 34:09

That's why I I won't do advisory unless we're doing the bookkeeping.

SPEAKER_06 34:12

Oh, advisory, full stop advisory. Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Well, because well, on that on that deep CFO CFO level.

SPEAKER_06 34:19

You know, chin wag, but like you're not going to go here.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

No, I can have a really generic conversation with you about your financials, but for me to actually understand and give you really knee deep decisions or levers in your business that you can pull, not me, but I'll help I'll help you show the levers. I actually need to know the the nitty-gritty detail. But we're talking about large organizations as well that have multiple layers and you know, so on the on the generic stuff, super easy to go off a set of financials. But when you're when you're going knee deep into CFO level, you need to control the transactional.

SPEAKER_06 34:54

So the other thing I'm finding that is being forced upon us, pushed upon us, or requested upon us on clients, and I'm gonna bring back in AI.

Influencers Push Risky Financial Moves

SPEAKER_00 35:02

But you said you didn't want to.

SPEAKER_06 35:04

Is how they use AI to make a decision and then tell us to act on said decision. So, or or not, sorry, not even just AI, actually. Let's take this a step further.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

It's the my mates at the my mates at the pub.

SPEAKER_06 35:18

Kinda. That's the social media influencer.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Maybe that's what AI is, it's your mate down the pub telling you what you want to hear.

SPEAKER_06 35:24

Pretty much just on speed. But but it's it's it's the social media influencer. So we we get a lot of that. It's like, oh, I've been I've been following this guy and he talks about property, and uh I really interested in it, and I I I he's he's a mate, you should really listen to it. What he talks about is so on point, it's so amazing. And so I I'm I want to utilize my superannuation and I want to go buy it some property. People don't understand social media. They're gonna source that for us.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Nah, and it's like it's just like it's just the person looking for the quick win and the quick money again. Like honestly.

SPEAKER_06 35:57

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a lot of good platform for education and and and we I want to educate my client, and I also know that I can do a paid service for them. This is this is where the skeptical nature of like probably our kids can call out and go, no, that's that's bullshit. Whereas I I I still have the hope that the people who are utilizing that usually, not always, but usually are going, hey, my goal is to give education, which is good quality education that leads to revenue on social media that leads to the revenue.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

I would say maybe five percent of them are like that, and the other 95 are just looking for a quick buck. Louis Thoreau's just done a documentary which is just landing on Netflix about yes, it's about the manosphere. But it it it shows the difference between social media and reality. Yeah, like you have to be discerning in that space.

SPEAKER_06 36:47

I guess my what I was referring to is more like professionals like us utilizing social media for education just to work with.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Okay, yes, that's where the 5% sure.

SPEAKER_06 36:56

Yeah, yeah. So, but we get I'm getting a lot of that. I'm getting a lot of, hey, I've signed up with this uh buyers advocate that I've been following on on social media and I really like he talks about, and they're gonna go do this. So can you set up me up a super fun? We're gonna go buy this property in Queensland. And obviously, we legally can do that if they've got if it's a direct Yeah, if you're not providing the advice. And it's this is where we sit there and go, I am not delivering any advice. I cannot tell you whether that's a good or a bad thing. I can only take action on what you're telling me to do. However, my advice as your accountant is if you're going to make a financial decision, you should seek advice from a financial advisor. I do appreciate that that will cost you a significant sum of money because of the regulation that exists out there for them to even be able to tell you. Yeah, some of it is some of it is just unfortunate. But it is, but that's but we we're getting a lot of that. So now some of the stuff that's forced upon us is how do we act and interact with our clients who are getting external-based advice from unverified and validated resources. Um just call it again.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

It's like getting advice from the mate down the pub.

SPEAKER_06 38:04

Yeah, and that and but then because a lot of these people have spent a lot of time following this person, listening to this person, investing this person, they come in and they're like, This is we are so easily, as human beings, we are so easily led. It's because it's because everyone's chasing everyone's chasing freedom, right? Everyone's chasing, and the freedom is connected to financial freedom.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

They want the quick win, the the easy way out, the quick money.

SPEAKER_06 38:31

Like I don't know, like most of the guys that I'm talking to, it's not quick, it's it's like this is our 10 year, 10 to 15 year plan. It's a longer term play, but it is where where people are seeking the advice is where is in the space that they play in. They're not going to you or me to find us. We are the ones that need to be finding them. And most of the time, people within certain professions are not capable, skilled, or wanting to do it. So the people that are actually getting in front of them are maybe the people that shouldn't be. The people who are going, your accountant is a piece of trash and doesn't really care about you. Or you know, your financial advisors don't really understand this trick here. Or this is the thing that I don't want to do.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

But in five years' time we're not have jobs, so it'll just be the AI.

SPEAKER_06 39:15

But all those people will have properties because they've bought a heap of them. In super funds. In super funds and multiple trusts.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

And because we were all out of our jobs, who's got the money to pay for it?

SPEAKER_06 39:24

Yeah, we'll all have fun now with the trust lending regulations changing there too. So um the ability to leverage into discretionary trusts to buy properties. Now all these all these kind of um plans are gonna fall over because you can't do it. That'll be fun anyway.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Usually we want them in discretionary trusts because of the CGT concessions, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:43

So yeah, just go talk to your mortgage brokers about the change in that. If you don't know about it, go talk to them. Uh, and if you want someone to talk to me and I can connect you to some people who know it.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Farz out Brussels sprout. There's so much change and it's forced change. So,

Coping With Change Without Burning Out

SPEAKER_00 39:55

how do you cope with it?

SPEAKER_06 39:57

Whiskey, um golf.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Disconnecting, I heard the troubles with my kids.

SPEAKER_06 40:02

Yeah, look, I um in my role, it's it's challenging because my job is to ensure that we're working with the right kind of people, both from client and team perspective, and then everyone's having a good experience through the whole thing. And so I I have to come from both sides of the conversation. I have to come from and say, hey, this is what people want. This is what oh, we don't want to well, I understand that we might not want to deliver that or we might currently not, but like if this is what people are looking for in an account and we have to respect that and we have to find a way in that. So, how do I cope with that? It's it's it's hard because sometimes I'm almost becoming a pain in the ass to my people because of those conversations. And I don't want to be, but it's too hard to be there. But I don't know, I think I think you have to you have to take a big deep breath. You have to recognize that you are skilled and capable of what you're doing. You have to recognize the world is not burning down around you, and you have to continue to build the relationships with your clients and get the feedback from those clients, build the trust, work in that space, and just and and just make sure that you're just evolving at a consistent enough pace but don't stress and don't force and don't rush it.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

And I would just say there's a level of discernment and education um that we can have. Um and I always say this and I I feel like it's the answer to everything, but delving back into the community, um, getting support, getting what you need, you are not alone. I know it's overwhelming. I I know none of us, you know, none of us want the email stuff, but we we're here. So we have to deal with it, we have to cope with it. There's a huge amount going on in the community at the moment. Get support, reach out, don't do it on yourself, you are not alone.

SPEAKER_06 41:44

No, I feel like that phrase you are not alone is probably the most common set phrase on this entire podcast. But it's so valid. Me saying fuck and saying that you're old.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Which are very common and happen pretty much every episode. Every episode. So yes, at least we're consistent.

SPEAKER_06 41:59

Imagine having a drinking game. One shot for every time you hear the phrase you're not alone. One shot for the hear the time every time Andrew says Allie's old, one shot every time you hear Ali come back and say, Well, my body age is younger than yours, Andrew.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

That's the challenge then.

SPEAKER_06 42:10

One shot for every time Andrew swears.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Um that is the challenge that we put forward to all of our listeners.

SPEAKER_06 42:16

Oh, you know, that could be last podcast episode.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Okay, well, I'll I'll have shots of sparkling.

SPEAKER_06 42:23

Last podcast episode. I'm going to turn this into crowd all the spinning wheel.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

It is so gonna get messy.

SPEAKER_06 42:30

Come up with some ideas of what what the drinks should be, and and I will do that.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

We are gonna get live so messy.

SPEAKER_06 42:36

Where could we do that live?

SPEAKER_00 42:38

What's one of the last events? Somewhere around Christmas. Tower Global was doing it. Oh, Toa, you should have. But we don't think we're doing a conference this year.

SPEAKER_06 42:45

If there's something happen anyone out there, if there's something happening towards the end of this year, you know, October, November, December-ish kind of time frame. And if you would like myself and Allie to come and record our last final ever podcast episode together and somewhat potentially turn it into a fun drinking game of sorts within your cohort of people, let us know. Because we'll probably be up for that. Um, why the heck not? Ali be on the sparkling, I'll be on the whiskey, and life will be good.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Now the podcast may keep going without you, Andrew. It's not the last of the last of the last. It's just that it's it's just it's just you. We no, we need to give you a good send-off.

SPEAKER_06 43:19

Give me a send off. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Absolutely. All right. Well, at least we know that we've got a plan for it.

SPEAKER_06 43:24

We're gonna send off this episode. It's been fun. Thank you for the chats. Uh everybody, face the change, you can do it, it's fine. And if you ever need help, just go to your child and ask them, is it real or not?

SPEAKER_00 43:34

That'll put you in your place. All right, see you later, everywhere. Chao.

Outro And How To Follow Us

SPEAKER_06 43:47

Wasn't that a fun adventure, my friends? Thank you so much. So incredibly much for hanging out with us today. Allie, you've been amazing. Andrew, you've been alright. How good is it to be able to have adventures together?

SPEAKER_00 43:59

It so is, and you know what? Keep following us. We are all over the socials at accounting adventures. Uh, check us out on the website and give us a bit of a like. You know how much we love that stuff.

SPEAKER_06 44:11

The best thing about the adventure is the people that we do it with. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. And please bring all the ideas, keep them recoming. We can't wait to share more cool adventures with you.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

We love you guys.