Life as a MD ONLINE with Special Guest Kevin Pho MD - Why Should Physicians Have an Online Presence?

December 01, 2021 Jonathan Baktari MD / Kevin Pho MD Episode 27
Life as a MD ONLINE with Special Guest Kevin Pho MD - Why Should Physicians Have an Online Presence?
Show Notes Transcript

Today I am honored to have Kevin Pho, MD, the founder of KevinMD and one of social media's leading voices for healthcare, as a guest on my show Baktari MD. We have a fantastic discussion going over topics such as why physicians should have an online presence, reasons behind physician burnout, how physicians can find other passions in life, and how COVID-19 is changing healthcare. 

If you want to learn more about Dr. Pho and his platform KevinMD, I encourage you to check out his website:

Thank you for joining me on another episode of Baktari MD! Do you have a question regarding our healthcare system? Please leave your question in the comments below so I can make an episode about it. Also, I’d love to hear any suggestions you may have for future content.

Facebook Group:

Physician Coaches: 

For more information, please visit:
Sign up for my newsletter here:



Disclaimer: All information discussed or provided by Jonathan Baktari, M.D. (“Dr. Baktari”) and/or his affiliates/guests are for educational purposes only. The information discussed and provided is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical concern or condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of any information discussed or provided by Dr. Baktari or his affiliates/guests!  If you think you may have a medical emergency, call 911 immediately.  All information concerning hospitals, physicians, insurers, and other healthcare-related companies is based on Dr. Baktari’s observations of the healthcare industry as a whole and do not reflect on any specific hospital, physician, insurer, or other healthcare-related company.

I always counsel physicians when they go
online there's always going to be a

third of people who agree with
everything that you say

there's a third of people who no matter
what you say is going to disagree with

what you say right and then there's that
third in the middle who are kind of

persuadable to either side and when I go
online or when I advise physicians to go

online it's that middle third that
you're really aiming to target 

Dr. Jonathan Baktari

you can see it I mean it's crystal clear
I think it's going to really

revolutionize things which is a big

hi welcome to another episode of
BaktariMD and today I'm very fortunate

and honored to have a guest Dr. Kevin Pho, he is a board certified

Internal Medicine Specialist as well as
the founder of Kevin MD

as one of social media's leading
voices for healthcare I'll tell you more

about that in a little bit but
Dr. Pho has been in CNN and he's been on

USA Today where I know he's a

and on many many other
shows and papers

Kevin MD just to give you an idea has
three million monthly views I'll have

him talk about some of the
articles that are published there he's

got over 250,000 followers on Twitter
and Facebook and I thought we would

bring him on to kind of go over a lot of
what's going on in healthcare today but

also start off with learning a little
bit about him

Dr. Pho, Kevin, thank you so much for

coming on and joining us today
thank you so much for having me it's an

thank you so as I was saying earlier

privately we're going to turn the tables
on you today I know you've done it

before but you're you're you have a
daily podcast where you interview people

seven days a week and
where you uh ask the questions and 

find out about people's journey and if
you don't mind I thought we kind of

start off with you because you're not a
typical physician

you're not a typical healthcare
person so it would be interesting to see

you know how you got through that
journey I know you did most of all your

training in Boston I think if I'm right
and you finished med school in 1999 and

started residency internal medicine and
finished in 2002. So you were a new

graduate you I remember what that was
like finishing internal medicine

and you said okay I'm going to go do
primary care

and I know you started the journey that

and you can give us you know the shorter
version if you want however you much

detail but what happened after you
graduated you started seeing patients

and you said
yeah so I started internal medicine

primary care and I think it was because
I really didn't know what else to do I

had interest everywhere I was thinking
maybe I can go into gastroenterology

maybe cardiology but I didn't really
 I guess like them enough to commit my

entire life to it and that left it's
kind of general practice and

really I've been there for almost 20
years now and I haven't really looked

back I really have a lot of gratitude
and for what I do and it's really I

enjoy seeing patients
every day I think primary care certainly

needs more physicians and I'm very lucky
to be doing what I do so I have a

primary care clinic in Nashua New
Hampshire which is about 45 minutes

north of Boston I see patients three
days a week and a lot of people also

know me as Kevin MD, I have a social
media platform that I started back in

2004 and
I'd be lying if I said that this was

part of some type of grand plan so
to do you know knowing what it is

I really didn't quite know exactly what

I was getting myself into because if you
think back to the early 2000s

social media was just in its infancy and
the word blog was just starting to go

come into our lexicon and in terms of
physician bloggers I would say there

were fewer than 100 of that physicians
online so I thought that it would be a

nice way to really just share my
thoughts and

even back then there was a lot of
confusion whenever new studies were

published and
new articles were published in a

newspaper and I had a lot of questions
from patients in the exam room asking me

what I thought about
whatever study came out or whatever drug

got recalled and
I started my blog at Kevin MD in 2004

it I think that I published an

article about a drug recall and I
remember the next day

I was talking to a patient and a patient
read my article on Kevin MD and wow that

time it was a revelation and I think
that was yeah a proverbial light bulb

moment where you know we can connect
with patients outside the exam room

and that's when we really

you know
started that journey

but so let me kind of
that's a great story so how did it

happen that I mean usually if somebody
starts a blog and publishes one article

you know without
even SEO didn't exist back then how did

you actually get the word out for people
to see it because it's difficult now I

can imagine how difficult it was how did
you and also the second question is were

you initially the only contributor and
at what point did you add other people

but I'll let you answer both those
well I didn't have any SEO back then it

was just something on blogger right do
we still use blogger now

back then I think and uh it was a simple
blog where I would just share my

thoughts I was the only contributor at
that time

to be honest I don't know exactly how
that patient found it but here

she did so
in the examiner says you know I've

been reading your blog I was really
curious what we had to say and there was

that particular drug recall and she was
asking me now I'm really comforted

by what you had to say because of what
you wrote online so

I think that um
yeah so I think it was really so what

did you know it was going to like take
off and and and be even more than that

so a lot of people have their
personal blogs but when did you say like

you know this may be more than me just
venting and having a couple of patients

when did you kind of grasp on that it
could grow more than that probably a few

years into it 
at first I didn't realize that

anyone really would read it maybe other
than my mom you know right so I think

so I think
a couple years in because I would have

more and more patients um start
commenting when I was seeing them in the

exam room and then you have some
mainstream media and I was a novelty at

the time you know the blogging doctor
right but then I realized that it

also could be a platform where other
physicians who may not have platforms

because not everyone is going to really
take that time to start a blog or go on

social media so that's when i started
inviting guest contributors I'll

probably say five to seven years in and

elevate their voices so they can be
heard too because a lot of times

physicians aren't often hurt outside of
the exam room so this is right great

opportunity to utilize social media for
them to do that

right now when when you were doing these blogs even back then was it more to talk

about topics that the public wanted to
hear or was it initially more

sort of you know locker room kind of

topics that other physicians would want
to hear versus in other words who was

your audience initially and did that
evolve was initially maybe your patients

maybe other doctors other or was it
always meant to go to the general public

yeah it was an evolution so I think at
first it was really just in the general

public because I think I was frustrated
at a time where a lot of the medical

articles and that's still the case today
they weren't written necessarily by

people who had a lot of a clinical
background a lot of newspaper writers

they don't necessarily see patients in
the exam room and a lot of them they

don't have that background in in the
health sciences so I was kind of

frustrated by that lack of informed
scientific take on a lot of the the

reporting that was done so that's why I
think I started the blog because hey I'm

a physician and I have a more informed
take on the current news yeah I think

that certainly evolved as more and more
physicians are frustrated certainly with

our healthcare system right and
you know locker room talk maybe but it's

really just sharing stories
that goes on behind the exam room and

because a lot of the things that there
are a lot of things that the public

don't necessarily know what goes on
behind closed doors in the exam room and

we talk about things like physician
burnout we talk about things like

all the regulations that physicians have
to face and and the electronic medical

record and how clumsy that is and I
think the reason why that's important

and why patients need to know about it
is because all of this stuff

affects patient care it affects how we
care for patients so the only way I

think to make change with our
politicians and those healthcare

decision makers is by getting patients
to care about them too because if if if

these things aren't rectified if our
practice conditions aren't improving the

way we practice medicine are improving
that's going to affect the care that we

give the patients yeah that's
interesting you brought up electronic

medical records because that's us
interest of mine but I want to get back

to that in a little bit but I just want

just finish a little bit more on this
story so

as you invited other contributors then I
I noticed uh what year was it that you

published your online reputation book
and how did you take you know this blog

and then
understand that world and then decide to

write a book about it sure

I think if you look at a lot of studies
patients of course go online to research

health conditions right and I think if
you look at pew internet it's like the

third most popular reason why patients
go online is to look for health

information but do you know what else
patients are looking for they're also

looking for information about their
doctors right patients are googling

their doctors and I think that really
is synonymous with what goes on in other

industries right you know people are
googling their restaurants their hotels

their you know airlines and and books
and all that but now they're researching

their doctors and I think a lot of
doctors are frustrated that whenever

patients would google their names you
know what normally comes up there are

probably pages from these you know
third-party physician rating sites right

these are sites that
doctors really have no control over and

I wanted to give doctors a way to
really empower themselves so they can

control their online reputation because
with social media we don't necessarily

need to hire
a publicity firm for us to create an

online persona doctors can do it
themselves we we create websites blogs

LinkedIn, Doximity these are all things
the doctors can do themselves so they

can be more proactive in how they appear
online so i wrote that book in 2013

really sharing my journey up until that
point and really

it was more meant for a kind of a called
arms to inspire doctors and say hey yeah

you don't have to be
subject to these third party rating

sites we can use these tools to really
define our own reputations online well

how did you get that
apprenticeship to to learn all that

while you were so you were practicing
uh I assume maybe at the beginning you

were also going to the hospital or is
that not right because that was way back

then right so before
hospitals didn't exist so you're in the

office you're going to the hospital
you know you have cmes and you have

hospital meetings and got this blog
going on

and then you say oh let me become a
social media

you know whatever not have that
knowledge base and then pass that on so

how did you acquire that social media
um expertise

well early mornings and late nights
right so I think

I would go online um to work on Kevin MD
and at that time I was working full-time

and like you said yeah in the hospital
so yeah wake up at like 4:35 in the

morning before yeah in clinic and
getting the kids off the school and then

late at night and I think a lot of it
is is something that you just learn on

the fly because whatever you learn now
isn't necessarily going to be relevant

three to five years later because with
social media and even now the online

platforms everything is just changing on
a monthly basis right and right so

I took a lot of my experience growing
the blog and

dabbling into
Twitter and Facebook and realizing that

hey these are sites that get ranked high
on Google when your name is googled and

a lot of it is this kind of practical
on-the-job training so to speak so

there's no real
courses I didn't really take you know

any type of of coaching this is this 
at 2013.

yeah on social media for like eight to
nine years and there was a call

of what I've learned then and I know
that and even now a lot of doctors they

just don't have the time interest or
really the resources for them to learn

this because this is building an online
platform and and uh creating and

controlling establishing your online
reputation isn't necessarily something

that's taught in medical school and

so you were very early to it what kind
of response did you get from the book I

mean where back in 2013 when doctors I
don't know if back then those doctors

saw that like okay whatever and you know

a lot of sort of pessimism I hear from
other doctors is you know only the

patients that you know I that are
complaining because I didn't give them

narcotics or you know or or whatever
they go online and they write these

reviews and you know so they kind of
almost throw up their arms and say you

know what what are we gonna do
did you get that kind of blowback that I

get from a lot of physicians like you
know that oh

it just seemed like they they thought it
was a realm that

they couldn't control it also I think
for some physicians and maybe I'm

speculating but you tell me your
experience they felt like it was above

them back then you know like
you know, I'm a professional, I'm

not going to be like like a restaurant
trying to get people to come to my

restaurant so yeah did you get any kind
of responses like that or maybe other

responses yeah so there's obviously a
spectrum of responses so there are

people who
definitely, you know whatever I said

resonated with them and it really you know they had their own light

bulb moment when i told my story and
they realized how important being online

is and of course on the other end of the
spectrum there's this indifference like

you said there's obviously physicians

even listening to what I say and reading
my book they'll say you know I don't

have time for social media
why should I care I have enough patients

and I just don't want to go online and
that's perfectly fine because my job

isn't necessarily to convince every
single person I talk to to really you

know jump on Facebook and start a blog
that's certainly not my goal at all but

it's really just to get physicians to
realize that if they're not online 

you know I think that there's a whole
plethora of reasons why they should be

and I'm sure we'll talk about things

online misinformation and online
reputation and getting their voices

heard and and I think that when I share
my journey and I give my big three

reasons why physicians should go online
it does resonate with a proportion of

the clinician audience but certainly not
all of them and I certainly especially

in this day and age it's very difficult
to convince everybody that you talk to

right right when you were writing your

blog just to kind of go back that really
briefly did you also do hey this is what

goes on behind the scenes or was it
pretty much reviewing articles

because I know your current blogs where
people talk about their journey goes

into that but
but originally was that meant to also

let the patients have a window to what
it's like to see

20 patients a day and be in the moment
for all 20 of them

you know which I always espouse like
being no matter what even if you're

saying 5, 10, 15 patients a day things
like locker room kind of stuff that

that, I think patients really do
want to know or would be fascinated with

yeah so at first, yes it was
sharing my stories my frustrations

and some of the difficulties that I face
in giving patients the care they deserve

and one of the things that that's led me
to of course was having mainstream media

take note of some of the things that I
wrote about so I had the opportunity

from my writings on my blog I caught the
attention of USA Today where they

invited me to write um opinion pieces on
their newspaper and I'll talk of course

about things that
a lot of doctors were frustrated with

and that's common knowledge amongst
other doctors and back then you know we

talk about things like you know burnout
and clumsy electronic medical records

and you know anything to
do with health policy but I was able to

use that mainstream media platform
really to share from a physician's

perspective which I think is
tremendously important because in

newspapers whenever people talk about
health policy and health care

I always say they're they're
they're not necessarily written by

clinicians who are in the proverbial
trenches who see patients every day

they're they're they're writing from the
perspective of

of you know perhaps in the ivory tower
or or in an academic setting where they

don't necessarily see patients on a
daily basis and i thought it's important

to have that perspective from a
practicing physician

because a lot of doctors they're too
busy just simply seeing patients or

they're in the
in the hospital and they don't have time

to write op-eds and and it's very
difficult to have their practice so so

that that was one of the opportunities
that i'm certainly most grateful for is

catching the attention of mainstream
media and being able to really um speak

from a larger platform
yeah I think you hit on something which

is on some level
it's sort of

the inverse of what it should be the
people who should have the loudest voice

are the people who are seeing the most
patience on some level yet the people

who have the time to be
you know more administrators or policy

makers are the ones that are often
seeing the least number of patients

and you know kind of makes sense you
know if

if you want to you know if you want to
know about plumbing you you want to get

a plumber that's like fixing drains you
know 10 hours a day not someone who used

to fix drains 20 years ago and now is
pontificating and especially

understanding what patients go through
because unless you're seeing 10, 15

patients 20 patients a day
it's hard sometimes you can get lost and

this is that another way of saying
what you were saying or do you want to

add anything to that
no I think you you hit the nail on the

head right the people who
who make health policy they don't

necessarily see patients yet their
decisions affects the people who do see

patients so I think it's better now
certainly than it was 10 to 15 years ago

I think it's so easy to have a platform
and now we have a lot of people who've

written an article on Kevin MD and they
themselves get noticed by television

stations and and radio stations and they
they use that kevin md platform to vault

themselves into mainstream media so they
can share their voices and stories so I

think that it's been a powerful tool
and it's been so gratifying and

rewarding to see that evolution over the
years yeah thank you for doing that

as you're saying that I mean your

hopefully with others has allowed

some of that disconnect to come become
less as you're suggesting so thank you

and that's a really good segue so if
people don't know about Kevin MD as a

platform I know I tried to summarize
it but love to hear the full-blown

version of what your platform is and
what it can do and all the bells and

whistles of it if you don't mind Kevin
MD is a platform where my mission is to

share the stories of the many who
intersect with our health care system

but are rarely heard from and it
comprises of various

entities so you have which
is my main site where I have

thousands of healthcare contributors
share any type of story tangentially

related to health care and I've learned
so much just from reading their stories

and experiences I also have a podcast of
the podcast by Kevin MD which is the

only daily medical podcast where I have
Kevin MDauthors on the show sharing

their stories in their own words and
like I said my job is very easy I just

sit back and ask questions and just
listen and learn what they had to say

and we're up to almost 600 episodes
doing this for almost two years now and

then I always like to share my story
from the speaking stage so

before Covid had the opportunity to go

to various

where really a lot of the physicians
would wonder you know why is social

media so important so just like I'm
doing with you I share my story and and

try to convince some doctors not

necessarily to jump on social media but
at least get them thinking about why

it's so important

being a speaker I've
realized that physicians

you know the level of physician speaking
certainly can be improved so

I do some coaching on the side where I
talk to physicians about how they can

improve their stage presence and keynote
speaking ability and I have a small

physician speakers bureau where there's
10 of us who are physicians and

and are all wonderful speakers where I
can use some of my contacts from some of

the old events to if they're looking for
future physician speakers they could

come to my bureau where they'll
peruse vetted experience practicing

physicians who are fantastic on stage so
in a nutshell that's that's really the

Kevin MD platform but really it's it's a
way where we can where I can just

use my experience in social media really
to elevate clinician voices so they can

be heard and make a difference yeah
that's amazing so not only are you doing

it but you know your your allows people to put their
experiences their blogs from

just nurses or anybody in healthcare
that like you said normally wouldn't get

a voice so that's really a unique
perspective you know I think a lot of

people think about oh I got to get my
voice out but it's rare that someone

says I need to get my voice out as well
as bring my colleagues with me

so we can really you know bring
attention to

what we're going through on a daily
basis especially for those who are

seeing patients on a daily basis so
thank you for that

so i just wanted to kind of touch
back more about your clinical evolution

so I know we've covered
the social media and some of that

other stuff but clinically was it hard
when did you give up hospital work

and was just with that alone was that
hard was did you feel like 

you're sending off one kid to college
and keeping one kid or how did you

deal with that when that finally

so like I said yeah like you said when
we first started out you

I do you know my primary care clinic and
we would round in a hospital and there

was also the nursing homes as well right
so I thought that was very difficult but

you know what coming out of residency
you just didn't know any better because

because any situation
would have been better than what

I dealt with residency right so coming
with the first job I didn't really

push back or argue I said hey this is
what it is and it was

as as difficult as it is as I think
about it now it was much easier than

presidency so I just gladly accepted
that that's true they gave you so

so I think just like a lot of clinics
and you had the progression of the

hospitals movement I'll probably you
know five to seven years into my my job

then we had a hospitalist program right
our institution that took over in

patients and then you have a
physician who just rounds into nursing

homes that that took that off our place
so now I see patients in

the outpatient setting 100 at a time and
as you know there's pros and cons to

that because from a lifestyle standpoint
it makes it much easier you don't have

to go back and forth and if you're
raising a family and like you mentioned

have two young daughters or they're not
so young anymore but one's a junior in

high school one's in middle school yeah
it was it was much easier

to do just outpatient
clinic versus going to three different

places but of course you have some of
the downsides of that which is that lack

of continuity and it's better now but
when the hospitalist program was just

implemented there were problems in terms
of communicating back and forth with the

hospitalists and you had to ask the
patients that when they got admitted to

hospital you weren't necessarily going
to go in and see them right so right

right so that took a little bit of a
transition but that was you know at

least over a decade ago and now it's
pretty much everywhere where right have

hospitals and patients have that
expectation now that hey when they go to

the hospital you don't necessarily see
them and I think there's been such a

focus on continuity of care that we do
have right now pretty good communication

with our hospitals but it's been
certainly interesting to see that

evolution from when I first started out
back in like 2002 fresh out of residency

to what the health care situation is now
yeah for people who don't know what a

hospital says because I actually covered
this on on a on a video so I'll put a

link to that but I went over the pros
and cons of that in that video and some

of the some of the pros and cons you you
mentioned too I think for me and maybe

I'm slightly different you know I
think what what I noticed is


you know hospitals have a certain
mindset that

because they're interchangeable and your
primary care usually hopefully isn't

and so
you know you're like you're getting your

outpatient care from someone you have
rapport with

and but your inpatient care is
theoretically possible you'll get the

same hospitals onto admission but
probably not

and I think what I've noticed is that
lack of continuity from hospital stay to

hospital stay
is lost versus

the primary care hopefully isn't you
know you're seeing the same one and so

I've seen some patients struggle with
the fact that who's this new person

do they know me and do I have to go
through the whole thing all over again

and do you do your patients give you
blowback about you know oh every

hospital stay and even
the hospitals have days off so it's

another hospitalist and
are you getting any blowback

for that lack of continuity when your
patients get readmitted and they come to

back to your clinic and like why this
other guy now I had this guy and I don't

think that guy understood but this guy
was do you see any of that or is that

just me
well one thing I like to think is that

my hospitals don't go to the hospital my
patients they'll go to the hospital that

often where yeah okay
that they see different hospitals each

time but I think the patients who do
go to the hospital lot and you know

there is a certain frustration in terms
of seeing someone different and it could

be within even the same stay right if
if you know those hospital shifts go

from like seven days on seven days off
so right if you catch a doctor at the

end of their seven days they may get
someone new and in the hospital so

yeah I do get that complaint sometimes
like I said less so now just because I

think these patients are they've grown
accustomed to it now so

at first when we had this new you know
back then system in place there was a

significant amount of pushback and

but I think that um as we've fine-tuned
the system and I think from a

hospital standpoint they've certainly
done a better job in terms of managing

expectations and better communicating
with patients and making them realize

that hey you know I may not be the
doctor to see you tomorrow it's all

about really communication and managing
your expectations and we still have room

of course to to to work on that but I
think that if you do

communicate appropriately with patients
you're going to have less of that

now I hear you especially as you said

maybe it's gotten better because also
technologies the medical record system

where you get some of those hospital
stays somehow flowing into your system

so you can have that so I think
technology is contributing that to be

even better you know so I think two you
know I mean I started it maybe a

decade before you in terms of getting
out and

but I think both you and I have
had this evolution of the hospitals

thing kind of totally changing
everything the other evolution that's

occurred while we've been on the watch
is this the whole idea of

mid-levels of nurse practitioners and
pas I'm sure

you know what you see today is nothing
like 2002

where you know pretty much if you go to
an ER now

or even go to a new primary care
office more than likely you're going to

be greeted by a nurse practitioner or PA
and that's

by the week the likelihood any ERany

urgent care
you know this whole idea I'm going to

ER to see a doctor

is probably you know often not the case
although they may talk to a doctor or

tell me about that evolution for you and

your patients
first of all

do you have people mid-levels in your
clinic and you know nurse practitioners

PAs and how has that changed the patient
experience to having now

a layer sometimes between them and maybe
their physician

yeah so we have wonderful advanced
practice practitioners in my clinic and

we have
I think four or five

nurse practitioners and physician
assistants and they're all uniformly

excellent and they work within the
constructs of our team I feel very

comfortable sending my patients to them
and they don't hesitate to to

if they have questions about any type of
patient care they

don't hesitate to to come to me with any
questions so we have that great

communication and you're right I think
pretty much every field whether we're

talking about emergency medicine and
surgery and and hospital care you have

advanced practice practitioners out
there simply because there just aren't

enough doctors right especially in
primary care like it's very difficult to

recruit a primary care physician into a
non-metropolitan non-academic center

so a lot of systems

they simply have no choice but to hire
advanced practice practitioners so

certainly been a proliferation over

the last
10 to 20 years especially you know

since I first started but
working within a team approach I

think that right it definitely does help
in seeing the volume of patients that

need to be seen like I said I'm only in
the clinic two and a half three days a

week and I have over three thousand
patients right so oh my gosh can't come

see me they're gonna see my nurse
practitioner physician assistant and do

you have a closed pool by the way I
didn't mean to right but do you have a

close pool where
you know you have a limited number of

patients and that's it yeah so
eventually there's going to be a ceiling

but again I work for a hospital-based
system so that's those decisions are

above my pay grade right and so
like I said I have wonderful

teammates and colleagues that I work
with so if they can't see me their

patients know that
if they see one of my advanced practice

practitioners then
that information gets relayed to me and

the vast majority of my patients have
zero issue with that

perfect you know the other thing I
noticed about you which I brought up

offline too is that you've had the same
clinical job

your whole career
and I know part of that is you have all

these outside interests but what's it

I know you and I very rarely find
someone who's had one clinical job maybe

there are some but rare
what does that say about you and I

and what would you advise people like

you know starting out saying hey I'm

try to find one job and and kind of make
it work as opposed to every few years

you know moving on to something else yep
so there's a couple things to that so

number one is of course luck right
because coming out of

residency I didn't know what to look for
in a job but you know certainly I don't

know what I know now and I talked to
thousands of doctors in terms of their

job situation so if i were looking for a
new job now it would be a much different

experience than what it was when I first
came out of residency so there was a lot

of luck involved in that I lucked into a
practice with good people and really

like everything it's really about the
people it doesn't matter well of course

the organization matters but what
matters so much more is the people that

you're around with and I have nothing
but great things to say about the really

family-like atmosphere that I looked
into in the clinic so especially coming

out of residency not really knowing
anything they you know kind of took care

of me showed me the ropes and and really
was an easy transition to me so for me

so the number one is this luck and
number two is of course personality I'm

the type of person who
likes to stick with things right and

persevere through things and that's
evident with of course kevin md it's

like being on social media and running a
platform for almost

you know almost 20 years now it takes a
certain type of personality doing

six almost 600 straight days of podcasts
without missing a day that takes a

certain amount of personality so I think
there's also a personality trait where I

do like to stick with things longer than

yeah well and that's showing up in your
brilliant work because I think

we all know that you know to do
something amazing

yes it takes talent and it you
know you just may be whatever in the

right place but if you don't have the
perseverance and dedication and the long

hours and
working weekends and nights and what

have you to make it happen

which actually just want to transition
to one thing that I always talk to other

physicians you know when I talk to
physicians who are even close to burnout

or any level of frustration one of the
things I commonly hear is what else can

I do I'm a GI doctor what else can I do
you know so interesting I give this

I give this coaching thing to some
physicians who come to me who are burnt

out and they're like well what else can
I do and I always say if you were smart

enough to get into medical school if you
were smart enough to get A in organic

chemistry if you were smart enough to
get an A in physics if you were smart

enough to pass the MCATs and then
you you passed two years of med school

in terms of classroom stuff and then you
got your boards and what have you you're

not smart enough to figure out something
else to do

whether on the side or as a replacement
it always amazes me positions

by and large are you know in terms of
their education and their level of

brightness should be on the upper scale
of things I've never met a group of

people who are so brilliant so smart but

like they're stuck and they can't do
something else so I always say if you're

smart enough to get into medical school
shouldn't you be smart enough that if

you're frustrated
you should at least have other channels

like you did which is
you know so in other words

when they close the chapter on your book
on your career book

why does it
when they close that book why does there

have to be only one chapter why can't
there be three why can't they say oh Dr.

Pho he was a great primary care doctor
the patients loved him he was amazing oh

Dr. Pho he had a platform

why is there why is there only one
chapter for most physicians life why

can't there be two or three or four
well I think there's a couple of reasons

for that so number one you're right a
lot of physicians of course they have to

ace organic chemistry and physics and
all their pre-clinical years but I think

the path for a lot of physicians is very
linear right so you go to pre-medical

studies and then you go to medical
school then you do you know whatever

three to seven years of residency some
do a fellowship and then you're

you're attending so that's almost 20
years of her life going on a linear path

and when you're in that linear path it's
just so difficult you don't have time

for everything else and that's really
all you know

how to do and that's the common theme I
talk to a lot of with a lot of

physicians who are burnt out when they say I don't know what else to do is because

they've been doing the same thing for 20
years it's like talking to like a

professional football player and after
they retire and then you ask them you

know what else are they going to do and
they just don't know because they

literally have been playing football for
like the past 20 years of their life 24/7

and I think it's the same for our
physicians as well we're just doing

medicine 24/7 for 20 years so if you ask
us what else is there to do we're

probably not going to have a good answer
for that right

so I'm glad you brought up physician
burnout because that's that is a topic

that comes on very very frequently on my
podcast and blog and I'm sure you and

your audience knows the numbers about
how almost 50 of physicians experience

symptoms of
burnout and i'm sure that number is only

going to rise during the pandemic so the
question then becomes why are physicians

burning out really and a lot of people
give reasons but I think really what it

comes down to is physicians are really
losing their autonomy right we go

through that 20 years of training 24 7
living breathing and sleeping medicine

and you go out to practice and we
feel that a lot of the tools that we

have to take care of patients are taken
away from us we're forced to

fill out all this paperwork we're forced
to see x amount of patients per day

we're forced to
use clunky electronic medical records

that take twice as long to write notes
right and I think a lot of that autonomy

is taken away from us and that leads to
a lot of what's called moral injury for

among physicians that we can't give
patients the care they deserve because

we just don't have the tools and we're
just unable to do so

and that leads to a lot of physicians
just leaving clinical medicine all

together and I've talked to hundreds of
doctors who are in that bowl where they

just leave clinical medicine and that
really doesn't do patients any good what

good is a doctor if they leave clinical
medicine right so

so that's one of the things that I do
explore on my own podcast and on my site

and and to answer your initial question
you know what else can we do out of the

of course to you and I the answer is

easy there's plenty that doctors can do
because one of the themes that I always

like to pound on is that doctors or
clinicians we're more than our degrees

we're more than just people who can see
people in the exam room or the hospital

in the operating room I've talked to
physicians who've done so many things

you know they they buy real estate they
they they manage properties they go

into non-clinical jobs whether it's
pharma whether it's 

working for insurance companies work at
expert witnesses they work as investment

managers they work as coaches there are
literally hundreds of things that

physicians can do within degrees other
than seeing

seeing patients I think one of the keys

that these doctors or whenever you talk
to a doctor who says what else can I do

is really surround themselves with
like-minded people you because I can

guarantee you a lot of physicians
they're going to be in the same boat

they're thinking about stepping away
from medicine or

going back to full-time and and having
another source of income so they're not

so financially dependent on their
medical job and they can do other things

you got to surround yourself with
like-minded people by listening to

podcasts like this
there are dozens of facebook groups that

you could look for where you have a

in similar boats you know if you just
Google say or go on Facebook and search

for physician side gigs that's a group
by my friend Nisha Mehta she was a okay

radiologist and that's a group of almost
I don't know the exact number between 50

and 60,000 verified physicians and it's
literally called Physician Side Gigs

where doctors explore what else they
could do outside of clinical medicine so

that's amazing one area that that I
would start and and if you just and

then if you don't know where else you
could certainly hire a physician coach

there are plenty of physician coaches
that and what would be a good resource

for that for the audience to to go to to
any place on your site or where else

go to my site and just look under

physician coach and I've had a lot of
physician coaches write articles on my

site about
this exact question what else can they

do outside of clinical medicine right so
go on and search for

physician coaching or physician coaches
and they're able to look up those

articles yeah I have so many so I
don't want to necessarily recommend one

over the other but talking to a
physician who understands what you're

going through and understands some of

guilt and the obstacles to finding
something outside of clinical medicine

and finding your passion I think it's
absolutely critical to managing burnout

because the last thing that we want is
for physicians to leave clinical

medicine entirely if anything maybe back
down like I did a few days so you're

involved with clinical medicine but you

have another passion that fills your cup
because we don't want any physician to

be so burned out that they leave the
field entirely because that isn't going

to do patients any good
those are amazing resources

I'll try to make sure we put some links
for people even here to your to your

site to find those coaches and that
Facebook page that thank you for sharing

you know we try to do these podcasts so

we can help people and what you just
related is amazing information can I

ask you one one psychological thing that
I've noticed with physicians

and that is
you know I know you said they can like

do it part-time but if physicians have
an opportunity to do something that

involves giving up clinical full-time
I find that certain physicians struggle

with the absolute walking away from it
yeah part of it it has to do you know

you're it's sort of like investing in
something for 20 years and then saying

you know you build up a restaurant
for two I'm just going to close it

but I think there's also this idea of
who they are I mean if you're a

physician but you don't see patients and
people bump into you your relatives well

are you proud and you're not well no I'm
not really practicing I'm doing some one

of the things you said I'm doing
investments or I'm doing that

I think it's

physicians I think maybe more than many


your self-identity who you are
is so tied into seeing patients

that even when a great opportunity
comes up and I've seen you know friends

of mine call me say I've got this
opportunity to you know this pharma

company wants me to get involved but I
can't I can't give up seeing patients

and by the way and maybe they shouldn't
I mean depending on where they are but

do you is there something
almost embryonic about seeing patience

to physician psyche
have you seen that and and what do

you think of what i'm saying
so there's always

a question I ask whenever people ask me
that question

is this when you die not to get too
morbid but when you die and on your

you want to be able to answer this

do you want to be remembered for who you

or what you do

so if

you are a physician all the time and if
your passion is seeing patients 100 of

the time more power to you and if you
want to be remembered as a great

physician that's who you are and there
are subset of physicians who fall in

that category and more power to them
because that's certainly not everybody

but there are a lot of physicians
who see patients

and they're not necessarily there for
their families

they're not necessarily there to
be at their kids most important events

because they're in the hospital all the

those doctors need to ask themselves

how do I want to be remembered
after I die am I going to remember for

for what I do
or who I am

one thing I always say is that
medicine is always going to be there for

you but my kids are only going to be
young once right so whenever my kids

grow up you can always go back to

so when you talk about that physician

being intertwined with
seeing patients all the time

you know I certainly think that used to
be the case

but I think now like I said before
doctors are so much more than a degrees

and there are fantastic doctors making a

on social media like I am their doctor
is making a difference

on a non-clinical job
being an expert witness I think that

there are so many ways where we can help
patients where it's not necessarily so

narrowly defined as it used to be
I think I've made a difference to

patients who read my site during the
pandemic helping to clear up

misinformation helping patients um
overcome their hesitancy towards the

so I think that we need to get away from

single-mindedness where a doctor equals

seeing patients because I think now
there are so many other ways where we

can use our degrees to help patients
right that's not necessarily in the exam

no I think you just did the trailer

for this podcast that was excellent I
think this whole thing of

you know your kids and family and
balancing and and doing you know

multiple things that are important to
you later on and now I think that really

hits the nail on the head I think a lot
of physicians let 20 years roll by of

you know working seven days a week and
then say oh well you know what just

happened and you know did I spend enough
time with family and kids and

even outside interests or exercise or
whatever else

that keeps them going it's the old adage
when you're saying yes to something

you're saying no to something else you
know this when you juxtapose you know


there's more clarity as opposed to I
part of it I always used to use this

analogy like
when you first get that acceptance

letter to medical school right I sort
of have the analogy I give is I know if

you've ever been in Europe where they
have these express

trains that like literally will bypass
five countries and get you from here to

there and you can't stop in the middle
right and no matter what I mean you

you're done I mean you're you're in this
part of Europe you're going to end up

and there's no other stops and it's an
express train so it's like when you when

you get into medical school it's like
that is the ticket for the express train

you know some people viewed okay I'm
getting into medical school here and I'm

getting off when I'm 60 something and
I'm retiring

and there is no stops in the middle
there's no diversions there's no

sidetrack so you know I kind of it's a
similar way of saying what you're saying

which is it's this express train and
and people sometimes i the physicians

that want to do it I want to give them
courage to say it's okay you know what

tell them to stop the train and get off
or take a breather or

take a side tour and come back but
there's like no nothing I can't even

take a month off I can't go to my
partners and say look I need three

I just want to kind of circle around and

I'll be back
it will you know what will they do what

will they say
so I think how do we get physicians to

say it's okay
to pause the express train

and get your bearings
anything I mean any thought on that yeah

I think one of the the ways in
addition to what we already described in

terms of finding your passion I was like
clinical medicine on a more practical

basis is that you have to be financially
independent from medicine meaning that

if you have debt and you're
relying on

your income from your physician job then
it is very difficult to to walk away

it's very difficult to cut back because
if you're relying on that income to

you know pay for a mortgage to pay for
an expensive car to pay for all you know

the proverbial doctor lifestyle right
and right you need that that um your

physician job then it's difficult to
walk away so the solution to that that i

talk to a lot of doctors and that they
do is that you need additional sources

of income so it's very you know you need
sources of of income

you know what we call it outside our W-2
income right so we need our

income you know whether for the vast
majority of physicians it's real estate

so I have a lot of doctors who take
courses online courses on how to buy and

manage properties you know there's
syndications which is past the source of

income basically they need other income
streams to supplement their clinician

income so
they are financially independent from

medicine so they are able to cut back so
if you you know take myself for instance

you know I think practicing primary care
five days a week is very very difficult

and I really salute the primary
care doctors who see 30 patients a day

five days a week because
that for me would be a sure path to

burnout but I'm able to
become financially independent from my

physician job where I am able to only
work at 0.5 FTE which is like full-time

equivalent like basically working
part-time and I can supplement my income

by by speaking and by running a
platform by doing my podcast and doing

things outside of clinical medicine
right so

and in a way I think that's kept me

going because I've had so many doctors
where they are where they see patients

five days a week and they've left
medicine entirely but i'm still here

what almost 20 years seeing patients

three days a week and like you said at
the same job for almost 20 years and I

think part of that ironically is cutting
back so by cutting back you can last

longer and I think that's a lesson that
a lot of physicians can learn from

yeah I think you know the I think what
we just talked about what you just said

is the big elephant in the room that you
know we don't really talk about which is

like you said these physicians go into
their career they become a gi doctor

cardiologist they buy the cardiologist's
house and they buy the GI house and the

mortgage in the car and you know the the
private schools and

and then and so their decision to
you know what they do on that express

train is is really colored by that need
to maintain that lifestyle and uh if you

can supplement that income as you're
saying and eventually maybe replace it

then then when you're saying yes to
clinical it's basically just out of love

and not out of I got to maintain this
lifestyle I hope physicians hear that

loud and clear especially younger
physicians who are just starting out

if they plan early and say you know I

may stick with it I may not but it'll be
a choice

and not I have to so that that's great I
want to kind of

finish up a little bit talking about
what you alluded to and what's an area

of you know expertise for me is the
Covid era

and how that has impacted medicine
obviously more telemedicine and all

that other stuff but from where you sit
this pandemic and how has changed your

practice how you view medicine how you
view health care what your guess on your

podcast their perception I was listening
to one of your podcasts where a

physician was talking about their
burnout during covid you know where they

were very depressed and you know what
have you and I thought that was very

interesting tell me more about your you
know kind of global

view it's not in the rear view mirror by
any stretch of the imagination but

looking at a little retrospectively this
last year and a half

what do you make of it and how's it
impacted health care

so one thing I'd like to say is that of
course we have a pandemic of Covid but

we have an epidemic of misinformation
brought up by Copenhagen

and I think that Covid has really bought
brought to the forefront

the misinformation epidemic that's
actually been going on for for years

I've been talking about this on the
stage in my blog for for years now that

Facebook and YouTube it's really easy to

perpetuate false information and only
now because the kovit that's really

coming to the forefront so that's really
harming our response to kovit and it's

really harming our updated vaccine so I
think that whenever someone

writes something false about say the
Covid vaccine that can be shared on on

facebook to people who who have the same
world view as you and that only

perpetuates misinformation so yeah
no I mean and I hear you but you know

what's interesting and maybe you this is
I'm going to give share I know I'm

interviewing you but I want to share
this one little perspective because I've

been in the vaccine world now you know
our organization used to be called the

vaccine center you know so we do adult
vaccination we've been doing it for 10

you know actually 20 years if you go

and one of the interesting thing that
vaccine and misinformation there's a

there's an interesting coupling that
doesn't happen in other aspects of

medicine like I don't there's no
Facebook group of Moms Against

Antibiotics for their children there is
no Facebook group of people who don't

believe in migraine medicine or whatever
so you know people always use because

I'm in the vaccine business like what is
it about vaccines that all this and

misinformation and there's inertia and
you know what we used to say even before

Covid is because vaccines are a class of
their biologics but let's call them


government forces you to take to get
into school you know your kids whatever

it then is not viewed as that because
I've never come no one's ever come to me

and say hey Dr Baktari I don't believe
in antibiotics nobody even says that why

Imean if if vaccines and antibiotics
were just different categories why isn't

there a certain percentage of people who
refuse to take antibiotics it just

doesn't or why are there physicians that
say oh I don't believe in antibiotics no

physician says that
so I think there's something inherent

about vaccines in general before Covid
and now this misinformation that you're

talking about
I think is part of that story

had you ever thought about that way and
am I crazy for looking at it like that

well I think the reason why people have
such a reaction against vaccines is

because the benefits of vaccines are not
immediately tangible and that's the

difference between vaccines and
antibiotics if you're sick with an

infection and you take antibiotics you
get tested

tangibly better within 10 to 14 days in
most cases right but you take a vaccine

really the benefit of it is you not
catching a disease right right so and

then sometimes some of the the the
purported you know

side effects of vaccines you know
there's that false relationship between

autism and vaccines of course I think

people think that it's caused by
vaccines but I think the reason why

there's this such backlash against it is
that the the benefits of it isn't

immediately yeah
but I hear that by the way that's

probably with that about but even if
someone's on you know medications for

Crohn's, diabetes even medications that
don't give you immediate benefit it

doesn't have this visceral
like 30 percent of people say I'm never

taking that you know I don't think 30 of
Crohn's patients say that or even if

it's not so but anyway but
and then just finishing up this medical

misinformation though

so I think the medical misinformation
is hard because the people who are

anti-vaccine or whatever perpetuate
these crazy you know things and then it

develops a life of its own so how does
how do you get the because it's not all

upside for vaccines either you got to
talk about breakthrough cases so how do

you get real information that may not be
essentially called not good news or

whatever but still
because I think

people will latch on to that and you
know you talk about breakthrough cases

with Covid you see the vaccine doesn't
work so but you still want to get that

information out so how do you get out
negative information

potentially without
you know

having people seize on it and say oh wow
you see I have myocarditis I knew it

and there you go
so I find it difficult to get

negative information out that should be
that is not missing

medical misinformation but then people
latch on to it yeah

so I think one of the you know before I
answered I think one of the things that

we need to realize that whenever
we're online our job isn't necessarily

to convince 100 of the people that
you're talking to especially online

right uh because we're so polarized
right now we live in such a polarized

society that I think that if you go
online expecting to convince everybody

that you talk to that's not a realistic
expectation I always counsel physicians

when they go online there's always going
to be a third of people who agree with

everything that you say
there's a third of people who no matter

what you say is going to disagree with
what you say right and then there's that

third in the middle who are kind of
persuadable to either side and when i go

online or when I advise physicians to go
online it's that middle third that

you're really aiming to target
you want to convince a couple people

you know
the more the better but if you convince

one or two people to give a second
thought about

the vaccine or or whatever is out there
then then I think that's a job well done

in terms of negative information or side
effects I think you just have to be

truthful right so I think that a lot of
it is a choice so when I'm in the exam

room talking to someone who is hesitant
about the covet vaccine

you can't lie about the connection to
potential myocarditis or with thrombosis

with the Johnson and Johnson AstraZeneca
vaccine you just have to be truthful and

just let them know is that you have the
risk and you give them the statistics

and you weigh that against the potential
of catching kovit and ending up in the

hospital and if you go to a hospital on
a ventilator your chances of getting out

of the hospital is relatively low so you
know eventually patients

have to make their own decisions you
have to be honest with them with the

numbers you share what you would do in
their situation but I always like to

give the ultimate decision to the
patients you know I think we talk about

things like mandates and all that and I
think that absolutely should be a last

resort but in in most cases I'm able to
at least get patients thinking saying

hey you know I have a different
perspective on

the vaccine and even though there are
some rare rare rare rare side effects

that I think that hey my doctor is
saying that the chances of of having

some type of serious effects from covid
is actually a pretty high probability in

relation to whatever rare side of extra
vaccine is that at least it's got some

thinking about taking it
yeah you you hit the nail on the head

and I've got those emails thanking me
that because their relative that wind up

you know after watching something we did
wound up taking the vaccine and that's

all really gratifying and I totally
agree with you

the one other interesting thing and
that we can wrap it up with this idea is

you know one of the interesting things
that I find for

some of the my patients or people I've
talked to that are hesitant is they have

a different bar

like the Covid vaccine than they do if
they needed orthoscopic surgery nobody

goes into arthroscopic surgery or
tonsillectomy and says unless you can

prove to me without a shadow of a doubt
there will be no side effects and until

you know every study is published
I basically I want no risk but and then

I'll take the Covid vaccine I'm not
saying everyone just a subset but nobody

says that whether when they're going to
nobody turns their orthopedist right I

was about to drape them and take them
into the over I just I want to be very

clear about this orthopedic surgery
there's absolutely no risk that I'll

have a reaction to anesthesia I won't
get an infection because if that's the

case my bar which I have for the my Covid
vaccine is I'm not taking it until

there's metaphysical
no metaphysical possibility I'll get a

side effect and I think having one bar
for your cover vaccine but walking into

your doctor's office and taking an ulcer
medicine or getting a procedure done

for some people it's not the same bar
and when you see that does that stick

out to you that they have a different
bar for the Covid vaccine I think what

you said is absolutely true and I also
think it's you know what we talk

about having an immediate gratification
you know if you go into an orthopedic

surgery and it fixes your knee that's
been bothering you for 15 years you know

I think that's a that's a immediate
relief whereas like like we said before

the vaccine doesn't have an immediate
relief so I think that also I wanted to

add to that is you know the vaccine's a
needle right so it's a little bit more

invasive than say a pill so that's why I
think that there was such an acceptance

of people who were vaccine hesitant but
they were so willing to take

hydroxychloroquine or Ivermectin and all
that so I do think eventually when the

Merck and Pfizer
and you know anti-Covid antivirals come

out there are going to be more people
who are willing to take that after they

get diagnosed with covet than they are
uh then they are willing to take a

vaccine before they get coveted so which

eventually I think that once we have
these antivirals approved and you

know commonplace hopefully early 2022
you are going to have more people take

those after similar to like a Tamiflu
after they get diagnosed with the flu

which is you know not ideal because I
mean it if if at possible prevention is

better than therapy for and and trying
to cure so I hear that then I hear that

um so

let's just sort of wrap it up with this
so it's how do you think Covid the

pandemic is going to change primary care
health care will will we be looking in

the rearview mirror in 10 years and
saying you know it was really Covid of

course you know with telemedicine taking
off and I get that part but is there any

tangible change the relationship you're
having or healthcare will have with

patients that will be impacted by Covid
the way you see it

so I'm going to um answer this in two
ways I think that you know to answer

your question directly in terms of how
is it going to change our relationship

with patients you know I think that yeah you talk

about kind of virtual options and the
importance of I think that during Covid

a lot of patients didn't see me for like
a year so a lot of their cancer

screenings and preventive medicine has
been put off and we're seeing the

effects of that now with delayed
diagnosis of cancer and i think that

hopefully is going to have a force an
appreciation of primary care for for a

lot of patients and make them realize
hey I need to

you know see my doctor because I haven't
been able to see him for a year and you

know my health deteriorated or I got a
delayed diagnosis of something of

diabetes and and cancer and I think that
you know

that would hopefully have more of an
appreciation of what we do as primary

care physicians
you talk about things like virtual

medicine about how care doesn't
necessarily need to be

face-to-face in the exam room and and I
think that there are a lot of things

that we can do over the you know
virtual screen or so I think that

hopefully insurers
recognize that because I think that a

lot of the payment mechanisms they
reward face-to-face care they don't

necessarily see the value of virtual
care so hopefully during this pandemic

insurers and people who reimburse for
four visits realize that um and then I'm

also going to answer that from a
physician perspective I think that one

of the things that a lot of doctors are
realizing is that

our jobs aren't as secure as we
thought it was right you hear a lot of

doctors who are laid off and myself I
was partially furloughed during the

pandemic because really because the
clinic and hospital were shut down and

I've heard a lot of people who
literally you know a lot of hospital

systems are losing money because of
coving so emergency physicians they're

getting they're losing their jobs and
getting laid off and replaced by

advanced practice practitioners for
instance so I think it's making a lot of

doctors realize that medicine isn't
necessarily the secure job they thought

it was and it makes them realize like we
talked about before they shouldn't put

all their proverbial eggs in one basket

not only is it taking a lot of of of
your energy in life but

the rewards may not be there like you me
you know you could be working for a

hospital system for 15 to 20 years and
if they're not making money or if they

can replace you with someone cheaper
they will and then i think covet has

made a lot of doctors realize that
medicine isn't secure as it once was and

making them
realize that hey

we have to be more than our degrees we
need to realize that we

we can do things outside the exam room
in the hospital and i've talked to so

many doctors on my podcast that
where covid was a wake-up call for them

where they had to realize that being 100
into clinical medicine whether in the

clinic or hospital the operating room
wasn't the best choice for them and i

think that with the pandemic it's making
a lot of other physicians realize that

yeah that's that's really interesting so
maybe what you were doing in 2004

is even more apropos for
doctors to realize now whether you know

starting their own platform or anything
else you said

to realize that they can't it's not in
their best interest

to be a a one act

uh they're going to have to come up with
a second or third act

uh hopefully in something related or
interested in but the days of like you

know finishing med school saying i'm now
set economically

and professionally I just need to
get in with the right group or start my

own practice and i think those days are
dead especially when you add the

insurance stuff which would that would
be a separate talk but we'll leave that

out for now but anyway so listen I want
to thank you so much we really I really

enjoyed having a colleague especially
such a leading thought leader and i

really appreciate it if people want to
get into contact with you i know you

have your website any other places you
recommend people to go uh to learn more

about everything all the amazing thing
you're doing

just and there's a way to
contact me there and if you are

interested in contributing an article it
doesn't have to be a clinician i have a

lot of patients who contribute their
perspective on the healthcare system

always I'm always willing to listen to

what you guys have to say and uh it's
important to

share perspectives both within medicine
and outside of medicine as well so
perfect dr po thank you so much for

being here we had an amazing time be
well and thank you so much happy

holidays thank you so much thank you for
watching make sure you like comment and

subscribe if you enjoyed this video also
leave other topics that you'd like me to

cover also check out my website

and sign up for my newsletter and
additional information about healthcare

in general and as usual thank you and be