How To Grow Your List Faster Than Any Competitor — Soma Toth | Why Top Shopify Brands Use Welcome Popups, How Popups Boost Revenue By 10–20%, What Makes A Strong Popup Discount Offer, Why One-click Opt-ins Increase Signups, Why Tech Beats Design (#404)

In this episode, we explore SMS and email list growth for direct-to-consumer brands on Shopify. 

Our guest is Soma Toth, founder and CEO of recart.com. He shares insights on building active subscriber lists, creating effective popups, and why traditional list growth methods often fail. 

Soma discusses their innovative one-click opt-in system that eliminates typing friction and reveals how popups can impact revenue by 10-20% when done right. 

Topics discussed in this episode:  

• What list growth really means for e-commerce brands. 
• Why 84% of top Shopify brands use welcome popups. 
• How popups drive 5-15% revenue increases. 
• What makes the perfect popup discount offer. 
• Why technical popup optimization matters more than design. 
• How timing affects popup visibility vs conversion rates. 
• What screen recordings revealed about user behavior. 
• Why one-click opt-in eliminates the biggest conversion killer. 
• How audience networks work while respecting privacy. 
• What impact popups have on overall business performance. 

Links & Resources 

Website: https://recart.com/
Shopify App Store:  https://apps.shopify.com/recart
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/somatoth/ 

Get access to more free resources by visiting the show notes at
https://tinyurl.com/2hp3phme 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] This episode is sponsored by Ahrefs, the all-in-one marketing intelligence platform, trusted by SEO professionals, content creators, and digital marketers around the world. Whether you're doing keyword research, checking back links, or analyzing competitors, Ahrefs gives you the tools to make smarter marketing decisions. Explore what Ahrefs can do Ahrefs.com. 

[00:00:20] It's also a trap because if you keep increasing the discount, you will see that above some [00:00:25] point. For some reason, the customers don't think they have. A really good deal [00:00:30] or a very realistic deal. A good popup is when a customer feels they got a deal.[00:00:35] 

Hello, [00:00:40] and welcome to another episode of the E-Commerce Coffee Break podcast. Today we want to talk about SMS and [00:00:45] email list growth for DTC brands, specifically on Shopify now list. Growth [00:00:50] is a topic that everyone is interested, but a lot of people do get it wrong and do not really [00:00:55] understand what kind of KPIs you need to look at and what kind of tools help you with your list [00:01:00] growth.

So joining me for this topic on the show is Soma Toth. He is the founder and CEO of [00:01:05] ard, a marketing app for Shopify brands. He makes sure that all the 30,000 [00:01:10] brands using ARD continue to see incredible list growth through one click opt-in in SMS [00:01:15] marketing. Let's welcome into the show and dive right into it.

Hi Choma, how are [00:01:20] you today? Hi, cla. Uh, it's amazing to be here. Thanks for having me. List grows, as [00:01:25] mentioned a big topic. Everyone wants to have a, a big list and for good reasons, it's owned [00:01:30] marketing, um, but it's not that easy nowadays to grow a list. Tell [00:01:35] me a little bit from your perspective, what list growths means for you, and then we dive [00:01:40] into strategies and tactics on how to achieve that.

Yeah. List growth for me. [00:01:45] Really stands for growing the amount of [00:01:50] active subscribers a brand has. It's very important [00:01:55] to. Put the emphasis on the active subscriber part [00:02:00] because you can acquire, you can even buy lists, right? And call it a list [00:02:05] growth. But if those subscribers are not active, not [00:02:10] clicking, don't have an intent, don't want to explore your products, uh, you're going to waste a lot of [00:02:15] emails and text messages, um, being sent to them.

I would [00:02:20] not really recommend to buying lists. Um, I think you started there with a very good point. Um, you [00:02:25] wanna grow your list on your own, and that starts very slowly and there's different strategies to do so. Talk me through the [00:02:30] ways on how you can capture emails and SMS numbers or telephone numbers.

For [00:02:35] SMS marketing, there are many ways to do that. Most brands, in fact, [00:02:40] 84% of the top 10,000 Shopify brands, they use a [00:02:45] so-called Wacom popup. Which greets the customer when they land on the website, [00:02:50] usually for the first time, offers usually an incentive, which [00:02:55] usually is a discount, more specifically a percentage discount in exchange for [00:03:00] an email and SMS subscription to the brands, uh, marketing [00:03:05] channels.

This is the main entry point for most of the brands [00:03:10] that are making at least 10 million in annual, uh, GMV. [00:03:15] There are other entry points as well. First, uh, you can also do email [00:03:20] subscription on checkout. That's how the second most popular and also [00:03:25] most efficient way to obtain marketing consent [00:03:30] on your list.

The third would be sign up to an account. So if you're [00:03:35] using a Shopify account system on Shopify Plus or using an app, uh, to facilitate [00:03:40] that, there's a way to obtain email and SMS marketing opt-ins. You can [00:03:45] also do all sorts of different things. You can collect emails from Instagram, you can collect from [00:03:50] lending pages, and you can also do email subscription via [00:03:55] SMS and via versa.

But the main point of entries for most brands we talk to [00:04:00] is showing a Wacom offer to new visitors [00:04:05] and obtaining the marketing subscription on checkout. [00:04:10] Let's talk about popups. Everyone hates them, but they work, but they only work [00:04:15] if they're done the right way. Tell me from your experience, what makes a good popup.[00:04:20] 

Very good question. Yeah. Popups have this, I. Incredibly bad PR [00:04:25] from the early two thousands when advertising was not embedded on the side. [00:04:30] It was popping up in your face and you had to keep clicking that out. So I think there is [00:04:35] like this mental connection to that. But if you take a look at the numbers, [00:04:40] more specifically, revenue numbers pop-ups work [00:04:45] extremely well and what it means extremely well.

We ran a couple of ab tests [00:04:50] where. There was showing a popup for 50% of the traffic and the [00:04:55] other half of the traffic would not see a popup. And generally what we see is a [00:05:00] five to 15% decrease in revenue per [00:05:05] visitor when you don't show the pop-up. [00:05:10] And why is this five to 15% drastic? So first, let alone [00:05:15] this statistic is already.

Business changing outcome for many of the brands [00:05:20] we talk to. But I have to remind you that the popup gives away 10%. [00:05:25] So in many cases, the popup [00:05:30] variant of the traffic is going to get a much lower A OB [00:05:35] because of the discount. Mm-hmm. And still beats the no popup variant [00:05:40] by five to 15%. So it's incredibly powerful, I think.

A good [00:05:45] popup is when a customer feels they got a deal. It's hard to [00:05:50] quantify. It's hard to pinpoint. I can give you like an [00:05:55] 80% recipe based on the more than 700 major AB tests [00:06:00] that we ran on top, top Shopify brands. And just bear [00:06:05] in mind that this took almost two years for us to run. [00:06:10] A good popup has many, many components.

There is. Maybe one or [00:06:15] two very big ones that impact conversion rate. [00:06:20] The first is the offer. Obviously, if you're offering 1% off [00:06:25] versus 10% off, it's going to be much more likely. It's [00:06:30] also a trap because if you keep increasing the discount, you will see that [00:06:35] above some point for some reason. The customers don't [00:06:40] think they have a really good deal or a very realistic deal.

We [00:06:45] ran this test for a major e-commerce brand the other [00:06:50] week where we tested five different discounts and we measured not [00:06:55] only opt-in rates, but also revenue and the third largest discount code one [00:07:00] oh, okay. It drove the 20% off Ryan one [00:07:05] in opt-in rate, and in revenue as well. For some reason, [00:07:10] customers didn't think that they got such a good deal with 25 and 30%, [00:07:15] so it's hard to pinpoint, hard to give an exact recipe.

But [00:07:20] here's the thing. Offer has to be resonating with your customers, and again, [00:07:25] percentage discount is a good way to start. 10, 15%. Good way to start. You [00:07:30] have to keep testing to find this sweet spot that I just mentioned, not only in opt-in rates, but also [00:07:35] in revenue. What makes people buy after they sign up?

That's also a very important [00:07:40] part of the popup performance. The second biggest part is [00:07:45] how the popup is built. Technical details of the [00:07:50] popup. How fast is loading, how compressed the image and the files are. [00:07:55] Where you loading it from? Is it first party, third party? How fast is it [00:08:00] able to render in the browser?

This is one of the big mistakes. [00:08:05] The big unknowns that all the brands fall into [00:08:10] as a trap because they don't understand that [00:08:15] 30 40% of their traffic is coming from a [00:08:20] user that has very slow internet connection and uses [00:08:25] an Android phone that is like two or three main versions behind the current one. [00:08:30] So you have to build your popups for them as well.

Lots of small [00:08:35] technical details cumulatively gives you a lot of [00:08:40] conversion rates because unoptimized pop-up is are just not being [00:08:45] seen by these visitors. Mm-hmm. Their internet is so slow, their devices is [00:08:50] so slow that the pop-ups is just not being rendered. I think user experience is, [00:08:55] for me, the, the main point.

And I'm very annoyed if I get a pop up and, um, the, the [00:09:00] little cross, a little button to close it is very difficult to find. Um, so [00:09:05] I think you should be very honest with your pop up. And tell me. I, [00:09:10] I think timing, as I said, is very important and testing with different devices, very important [00:09:15] when it comes to timing.

When in the user journey do you show the [00:09:20] popup? Surprisingly, timing doesn't matter that much based on the data what we [00:09:25] see, many customers like to see it [00:09:30] in advance and a lot of them are filling them out. Like I don't even [00:09:35] explore the product yet, but I'm just leaving my email address, my phone number [00:09:40] here in case I want to buy something from them.

I wanna make sure I don't miss the miss this [00:09:45] deal and. Timing is an [00:09:50] interesting question. Usually most of the brands do this like five [00:09:55] to 10 seconds delay after arrival on on the website. That's the usual [00:10:00] thing to do. Many brands are extending this to 30, [00:10:05] 60, 90 seconds. They see much, much better conversion rate.[00:10:10] 

But you also have to keep in mind that your. Pop-up visibility [00:10:15] rates. If you think about a hundred percent of your subscribers are going to shrink all the way [00:10:20] down to 25, 30% of all visitors because [00:10:25] everyone else won't stay two minutes on your side. So [00:10:30] that's another very important thing to, to think about.

Like pop-up visibility. How many [00:10:35] customers could you show this to [00:10:40] versus how many you actually showed it to? That's one metric that is [00:10:45] uniquely developed at Ricard, and I don't see anybody else measuring it, [00:10:50] but it's one of the most important popup metrics you can have. [00:10:55] Like how many eligible visitors you had, who should have seen this popup [00:11:00] versus how many actually saw it.

So timing [00:11:05] has not much of a huge impact on conversion it on impression [00:11:10] to. Subscriber conversion rate, but it has a huge impact on [00:11:15] visitor to subscriber conversion rate because these are the two [00:11:20] levels you need to measure. Separately for performance. Let's take a [00:11:25] moment to thank aherfs for the free web analytics tool, a free privacy first analytics [00:11:30] platform.

It gives you a clear picture of your website activity, doesn't use cookies, and won't weight down your [00:11:35] pages. It's incredible, fast, easy to set up, and built by the same team behind one of the most [00:11:40] trusted SEO tools in the world. Best of all, it's completely free and included in aherfs Webmaster [00:11:45] Tools. Plan, head over to aherfs.com/.

A WT to sign up. You will [00:11:50] find the link also in the show notes. That's a very interesting fact. I, I've never thought about that [00:11:55] way. And obviously yes, the one capturing them very fast. You grow your list and other people are more [00:12:00] focused on the conversion. Now I want to talk a little bit about what data you capture.[00:12:05] 

Um, is it only the email address, is it the phone number? Are there any other data that [00:12:10] you capture? What's the best practice there? Usually when we. [00:12:15] Show popups for completely new visitors. We try to keep it [00:12:20] as short as possible. One of the big conversion rate [00:12:25] destroyers in the popup business is showing multiple forms on the same page.[00:12:30] 

So if you collect email and phone number on the same page, or you collect name and phone [00:12:35] number on the same page, you're going to see conversion rate drastically drop. [00:12:40] We usually keep like one form field per page [00:12:45] and maybe like a radio selector or a dropdown. If the brand really [00:12:50] wants, you know, men versus women or whatever preference you have about the brand, what are you [00:12:55] looking for?

What are you suffering from, et cetera. Interestingly, yes, there [00:13:00] is a drop if you go different pages. But the drop [00:13:05] across, the drop across pages is much smaller [00:13:10] versus like showing the email or SMS field, uh, in [00:13:15] advance at the same time on the same page more. Most [00:13:20] interestingly, this is also one of the top conversion rate increaser.

So if [00:13:25] you, if your popup says 10% off and shows the email [00:13:30] field on the very first page. You're going to see a 20, [00:13:35] 25% lower conversion rate versus if you do this [00:13:40] so-called teaser page where you state the [00:13:45] offer and you only collect a micro. Yes. Like having people clicking. Yes. [00:13:50] Or declining the offer. Again, if somebody sees an [00:13:55] input field, that means they will have to type and [00:14:00] typing is.

The most efficient killer of [00:14:05] conversion rates. It's a very interesting effect that you say that this kind of micro action increases the [00:14:10] conversions there. And I a hundred percent agree typing is, is [00:14:15] stopping people from doing this action. Now with Ricard, you do something different than [00:14:20] anyone else does and I think that helps massively with conversion.

Yeah. Talk me through it. How does it [00:14:25] work? So here's the story we went through. This [00:14:30] 700 major AB tests through the past two years. We tested [00:14:35] all sorts of designs, technical details, see the unloading, [00:14:40] delaying the close button, removing the close button, trying to figure out [00:14:45] how to convert people better, running all sorts of gamified [00:14:50] experiences.

And it all came down to like a base [00:14:55] template that we mostly use for. For our brands today, [00:15:00] and as we introduced more and more AB tests, we couldn't move the needle. [00:15:05] Mm-hmm. We could like do 5% better, 2% [00:15:10] better, but nothing significant anymore. So once we ran like [00:15:15] 20 consecutive failed AB tests. [00:15:20] We installed a screen recording software to many of our brands, [00:15:25] popups, and we wanted to see like how people go through each step [00:15:30] and how can we remove friction in the process.

[00:15:35] So once we had a bunch of those [00:15:40] wordings, you only have to watch 10 of those to realize what the true [00:15:45] problem is. It's very clear from the recordings that [00:15:50] people absolutely can't and also hate [00:15:55] typing. Mm-hmm. You realize watching [00:16:00] those videos that we live in a [00:16:05] bubble. We are tech people. We use the newest [00:16:10] iPhones.

We have amazing internet connections in our homes, in our [00:16:15] offices. We are so-called tech savvy, so typing in an [00:16:20] email address and we also use auto field and we also like have all these different things [00:16:25] to all these different tools to help us input our email [00:16:30] addresses into any fields and phone numbers, into any fields.

The [00:16:35] average consumer is not like that. For the average consumer, it is a [00:16:40] challenge to put their phone numbers and their email addresses into that field. [00:16:45] When you watch those videos, you clearly see that, you know, they type in their [00:16:50] email address, they make a typo. They don't know how a mobile cursor works, so they delete the [00:16:55] whole thing and they try again.

Okay. Only 14 [00:17:00] one 4% of all internet users we [00:17:05] measured uses auto fails. They just don't use it. [00:17:10] They don't have it, set it up in their phones or, or they ignore it. [00:17:15] The average time spent inside the email field [00:17:20] measured starting when you click into the email field [00:17:25] and end measurement, when you successfully submit a valid email [00:17:30] address is 41 seconds in average.

So. [00:17:35] We realized that the friction is still there. It doesn't matter how beautiful the popup is, it [00:17:40] doesn't matter how easy it to be used. It doesn't matter how fast it loads [00:17:45] until they have to type. So we started working on this vision, [00:17:50] creating the world's first type less popup, [00:17:55] and we started to realizing that, okay, ARD has [00:18:00] popups enabled on.

Many of the top 1000 Shopify [00:18:05] stores we're showing our popups for tens of millions of [00:18:10] views every single day. These customers likely visit one [00:18:15] brand and the other, and the third and so on, and currently we make [00:18:20] them subscribe by typing in their emails and their phone numbers [00:18:25] on every single store. So we realized that, okay, this is kind of [00:18:30] stupid, and we have to ensure that whoever [00:18:35] subscribed on a Recar popup before doesn't have to [00:18:40] type their email address and phone numbers and don't have to go through the verification process and [00:18:45] all these different things to subscribe, and that's how One Click [00:18:50] Opt-in Born.

It's basically the idea of eliminating friction from the popups. [00:18:55] By having customers only sign up once we [00:19:00] save their details. We recognize them when they come to the other website that also [00:19:05] uses Recar popups, and we have them not to type their [00:19:10] emails and their phone numbers in. Yes. That's very smart.

That I think that's a, a very genius move there. [00:19:15] And also I think you, you gave a good insight and a good reminder for listeners [00:19:20] specifically either techies or people who are in digital marketing for a long time, [00:19:25] um, that not everyone has a fast internet connection and all the tools to help. So I think that's a very [00:19:30] good reminder for our listeners to, to.

Take a step back and to see their business [00:19:35] from the eyes and viewpoint of the actual users. And I think screen recording tools [00:19:40] good that you mentioned that they're so important. They might be boring watching hundreds and hundreds of sessions, [00:19:45] but it's probably the most important tool to really see what's happening in your online store.[00:19:50] 

Now with this one click, um, tell me about, is there any [00:19:55] kind of best practice? Is there anything you need to look into when it comes to [00:20:00] like GDPR and all this data security things, or how does it work? Good question. [00:20:05] So one click opt-in is always based on the [00:20:10] customer's explicit consent to subscribe. So think about [00:20:15] it as a.

One click checkout for marketing popups. Think about it as a [00:20:20] shop. Pay for marketing popups. Go through the process first, just like [00:20:25] you go through a checkout, you give email address, you give phone number, you give the consent [00:20:30] to one brand specifically to send you marketing messages, and [00:20:35] at the end of the process there is a checkbox you can tick in, which says, [00:20:40] save my information for faster opt-in.

And if you [00:20:45] give us your consent as a consumer, we save your details to the ARD audience network. [00:20:50] That doesn't mean we're going to share it with other brands yet. What has [00:20:55] to do in order for your data to be shared to other brands as well is to go another [00:21:00] website, see a one click popup being recognized, [00:21:05] type in the one time passcode that we sent to your phone.

'cause we want to [00:21:10] make sure it's you and not actually somebody else by by a mistake or not actually somebody [00:21:15] else using your computer or something. And once we verify your identity, [00:21:20] we preload the email address and the phone number associated in your account. [00:21:25] So basically the one-time passcode is a login and effective login [00:21:30] that pulls your account data into the popup.

You still have to [00:21:35] confirm that. You still have to say like, yes, I can consent to [00:21:40] this brand to send me marketing messages versus ARD sharing your [00:21:45] email addresses like, Hey, clause was uh, on the website yesterday. No, we [00:21:50] don't do that. So OneClick opt-in is specifically built to [00:21:55] enhance pop-up conversion rates and allow customers.[00:22:00] 

To opt in much more effortlessly because we saw they are hate, they [00:22:05] hate typing. So basically what we want to eliminate is typing [00:22:10] and allowing them to have this unified one click experience instead of [00:22:15] going on every single popup and typing the same things over and over again. [00:22:20] I said, I think it's a no brainer.

Talk me through the onboarding process. How do you install the [00:22:25] app? What steps are involved? How long does it take to get up and running? So, ARD is, is, [00:22:30] uh, free to install. We, um, offer a completely free three [00:22:35] week pop-up trial, um, which is fully, [00:22:40] uh, managed in that sense. So you come in, you install the ARD app, you reach out to [00:22:45] us that you want to start a trial.

And what we do is we create, [00:22:50] our design team creates a pop-up plan for you. We're going to [00:22:55] recommend a certain design. We're going to send you the plans. We're [00:23:00] going to have a feedback loop. Uh, you're going to tell us if you like it, if you like it, we're [00:23:05] going to build it for you inside your account. Once it's [00:23:10] built and everything is set up, measurement is set up.

We're going to take performance [00:23:15] measurement from. Your existing popups, we're going to put it into a spreadsheet and [00:23:20] we're going to launch the recurrent ones and see how it performs against those. [00:23:25] We run a three week trial and if you like the results, um, you can pick [00:23:30] one of our plans, which is, uh, um.

Completely available on our, on our website [00:23:35] under the pricing menu. I think that's a very comprehensive service that you offer there. Of course, just not [00:23:40] putting it in and self-service, but instead really going through the whole process and helping the [00:23:45] merchant with implementing the best practices there.

You said pricing structure [00:23:50] is on your website. Is there any kind of homework that immersion needs to do before you get started? [00:23:55] Not really. I think if you are aware of your current pop-up [00:24:00] conversion rates. That helps because the more you understand about it, [00:24:05] the more you'll understand about ARDS value.

So if you don't wanna [00:24:10] fly in the dark, look up what the current performance is and how your [00:24:15] lists grew over time, and especially like active lists. So how the active [00:24:20] number of subscribers changed over time. Your [00:24:25] email and SMS marketing. If you do that, that helps a lot because you are aware and you [00:24:30] know what the impact is when you switch to something much more efficient.

[00:24:35] Makes total sense. Smar, before our coffee break comes to the end today, is there anything you wanna share with our [00:24:40] listeners that we haven't touched on yet? I just really want all [00:24:45] brands to pay a lot more attention on [00:24:50] popups because. I see a lot of them AB testing, [00:24:55] you know, little buttons here and there, the color of the [00:25:00] sides, uh, the naming of the menus and all that things.

And [00:25:05] they usually celebrate when they find something that is two or [00:25:10] 3% incremental to the baseline, which they rightfully celebrate. [00:25:15] So however, popups impact revenue and [00:25:20] profit visitor. Anywhere between 10 and 20%. [00:25:25] So the difference between good, bad, and no [00:25:30] popup is the highest delta that you [00:25:35] see at any given AB test unless an entire website [00:25:40] overhaul.

Of course, popups are driving the most [00:25:45] amount of results and incremental revenue [00:25:50] for a brand. I think this is not common knowledge. People think that [00:25:55] it doesn't affect revenue that much, but it absolutely does, and [00:26:00] it's kind of my mission to help brands understand this and shine some [00:26:05] light on this. But if I want, if I were to send one message to the [00:26:10] ecosystem, I would, I would say this, um, pay a lot more attention to [00:26:15] what your popup does to your bottom line, because it impacts it a lot.[00:26:20] 

I totally agree. I think people should go, come over the point of thinking about popups [00:26:25] with having a bad reputation that they had like 20 years ago. Things have changed and [00:26:30] if you pop up, if you implement them the right way, it's definitely a great tool. I can totally, uh, [00:26:35] relate to that. I have the same experience with my sides popups work.

Uh, you just need to [00:26:40] do it the right way. Where can people go and find out more about you guys? Just go on uh, [00:26:45] ricard.com. And you can learn more about us. Cool. I will put the link in the show note and then you just one click away. [00:26:50] So Mark, thanks so much for your time today and giving us an insight on how to grow your list.

And I hope a lot of [00:26:55] people will try it out and that they for sure will see some very good results there. Thanks so much for your time today. [00:27:00] Thank you so much. Thanks again to aherfs and aherfs Web Analytics for [00:27:05] supporting the show. If you're looking for a clean, fast, and privacy focused analytics tool, try it [00:27:10] for free at aherfs.com/awt.

That's [00:27:15] A-H-R-E-F s.com/awt. You will also find the link in the show [00:27:20] notes. Hey Sia. Thank you for joining me on another episode of the e-Commerce Coffee Break podcast. [00:27:25] Before you go, I'd like to ask two things from you. First, please help me with the algorithm so I can bring more [00:27:30] impactful guests on the show.

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