A Close Encounter in Zimbabwe

Listen in as we tackle the eerie account of the Zimbabwe School UFO Incident from 1994. Sixty-two schoolchildren came face-to-face with one of more alien creatures, and their accounts haven't wavered to this day. In this encounter, they received a telepathic message about the bleak future on Earth, not unlike the story of the famous miracle of Our Lady of Fatima. We explain how ufology experts documented their extensive interviews with these children, and we analyze their profound narratives of what is the most well-known UFO incident reported in sub-Sahara Africa. Even now as adults, these people insist their testimonies are true, that they saw an extraterrestrial craft land in front of them and that they saw a being came out of it Join us as we explore this mystery, not only to entertain the possibility of extraterrestrial life but also to confront the limits of our understanding and the vastness of our universe.


https://whyy.org/segments/documentary-explores-the-ufo-sighting-that-changed-the-course-of-62-childrens-lives/ 

https://www.iflscience.com/the-ariel-school-phenomenon-what-really-happened-when-68-children-witnessed-a-ufo-63873

https://allthatsinteresting.com/ariel-school-phenomenon

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4760

"Space Journey" by Geoff Harvey
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Transcript

Joe: 1:01

Hello everybody, thank you for joining us today on Alien Talk Podcast. This is where we discuss all things about aliens and UFOs and where we always push the limits of our understanding. We appreciate all of you tuning in. This is a change to our itinerary from what was announced last time. As you may remember, we told you that special guest Nancy Thames, a known extraterrestrial experiencer, was going to come on to share her insight, knowledge about some salient close encounters and abductions. Unfortunately, Nancy Thames is unable to be with us this week on the show. She was supposed to come on January 28th. She had some unforeseen circumstances. However, I think we can all be rest assured that she will be able to make it here with us next time. Scheduling changes do happen from time to time. In the podcasting world, as well as in the conventional broadcasting world with radio and television, flexibility is always the key. Today, we will get into a different discussion, yet one that is certainly no less interesting, right Laurie?

Laurie: 2:02

Yeah, that's right. With the change in our plans, we decided to go ahead and record another episode for you all. Like you said, joe, we are expecting Ms Thames to be with us very soon. Right now I think we are shooting for February the 4th, which is in, it's not that far off, it's two more weeks. So we look forward to that. But in the meantime, on with the show, right?

Joe: 2:28

Right, it's right.

Laurie: 2:30

Yeah, so we all know there are many stories about UFO sightings, thousands and thousands. Some are rather mundane, but some truly do mystify us and even terrify us. Some of these sightings and encounters are just downright eerie, like the Virginia incident we discussed the last time on the show. But another one, from around the same time period, stands out as particularly shocking and bizarre and completely unexplained, and that is the Zimbabwe school UFO incident. And this is a weird story involving children, quite a few of them actually, who witnessed something that scared them and even haunted them through their adolescence and into their adulthood.

Joe: 3:17

Yeah. So this event, known as the Zimbabwe school incident, also called the Ariel school incident and that's Ariel, not aerial, Ariel, like the name of the Little Mermaid, that was the name of a private school in Ruwa, an agricultural area in central Zimbabwe, where, in 1994, some student children 62 of them to be exact had witnessed at least two silver flying discs descend from the sky and touch down in a field near the school campus. So, this did occur, as you said, Laurie, in the same time period as the Varginha UFO, that being in the mid 90s, about a year and a half prior to that, and it actually has come to be known as the most prominent reported UFO case in sub Sahara Africa. So, according to this account, on September 19, 1994, the school children at Ariel school in Ruwa, Zimbabwe, were let out for recess over after 10 o'clock in the morning, while the faculty remained in the building for a brief meeting. When the kids, who were in the range of 6 to 12, were outside, they saw a silver disc shaped object hover in the sky and then gently descend to the ground where they were all playing.

Joe: 4:35

There was some inconsistencies in their statements, as some of them said that there were at least two of them that touchdown. There were also some who said they did not see anything at all. Actually, according to Brian Dunning in a blog on Sceptoid. Com dated December 29, 2020, there were about 200 of them that did not see anything. But for those that did claim to see it, what they saw was a creature and alien gray based on their descriptions, and it was said to come out of the object, which seemed to be a craft, and it appeared before all these children. Again, the number is inconsistent, with some of them saying there was many as four of these beings that came out and supposedly the whole encounter lasted about 15 minutes and then the aliens went back into the craft and put it off out of sight.

Laurie: 5:26

Right, and then all the kids went back inside the school buildings and told the teachers about what they saw. They would go on to say that the object looked like it was silver and glinting on the ground in between the trees, and some also said that the alien being looked like it was in black. So, the teachers mostly dismissed it and went about their day in class. However, when they all went home the kids that were, they also told their parents about it. So, who, in turn, contacted the school administrators to inquire about what had happened? And that's when the story got picked up by a local radio station. Afterwards there was a researcher and editor of the magazine UFO Afrinews, Cindy Hinds, learned about it, and then she happened to also be the African liaison for none other than MUFON.

Joe: 6:26

So, Hind went to the school just a few days later and asked some of the children to draw pictures of what they saw, and she took 22 photocopies of what were, in her opinion, the clearest ones, and these drawings depicted, you know, your typical looking flying saucers. Some were shown in the sky and others were shown with landing pads on the ground. She also recorded a number of UFO sightings in the days immediately before this incident at the school, and these ones were from adults. It was later found that these adults saw lights in the sky, and some people later said that these were actually the reentry of the Russian Zenit-2 rocket, and that was launched a few days prior and it was done in order to put the Russian Kosmos 2290 satellite into orbit.

Joe: 7:16

So, in a blog by James Felton on IFLscience. C IFLsciencecom dated May 31, 2022, referring to Hinn, he said that she did not think that the kids had any access to media sources that would cover or inform them about UFOs so that this idea could have been planted in their minds and imaginations. They were supposedly from very agrarian villages with limited exposure to television, radio and movies, so the herd has gave credibility to their testimonies, since they had never before seen similar images to this. However, this was called into question, since the children were said to have come most of them were said to have come from more affluent families from the nearby capital city of Harare, and therefore they would have had more exposure than Hind would have expected in terms of radio, television and movies.

Laurie: 8:13

Right, now Hind wasn't the only one who took an interest in this incident. A correspondent with the BBC News Bureau in Harare, Zimbabwe, named Tim Leach, received a story and also went to Ariel School just a few days later. He didn't know what to make of it. He told his colleagues that he could handle war zones because he was a war correspondent, but he could not handle the UFO thing, and that's when he had to call for extra help.

Laurie: 8:45

But Leach didn't just talk to the kids. He also interviewed a number of adults who told him that they had seen bright colored lights in the sky on the previous days. Some of them even called what they had seen as being a disk shaped object or craft. And then, a couple of months later, it picked the interest of psychiatrist John Mack from Harvard University, who went there to interview the children, and he was fascinated that so many of them could retail their accounts with such similar detail, and he wanted to determine how much of it was reliable witness eyewitness information and how much of it might be mass hysteria. Mack was actually a ufologist himself and had done a considerable amount of research on alien abductions, even publishing a book on it, and his work was detailed in a recent documentary by filmmaker Randall Nickerson called Ariel Phenomenon. It focuses mainly on those interviews that he had with the children.

Joe: 9:55

Yeah, and it should be noted that John Mack was a Pulitzer Prize winner for the books that he wrote, most notably a comprehensive biography about T. E. Lawrence, aka Lawrence of Arabia. He was also the head of Harvard Psychiatry Department. So Tim Leach had good reason to think that Mack's experience and credibility with assisting in his reporting and perhaps help him get to the bottom of what had unfolded. So Mack found that quite a few of the children thought that the beings that they saw were Zwikwambo or Tokoloshe, which in the legends of the Shona and the Dnebele tribes are like ghosts or these goblin- looking kind of things which I guess you can say would look what we think a lot of as an alien.

Joe: 10:43

Great Hind and Leach came across those statements as well when they interviewed these kids and when they inquired of the school's headmaster if he thought it was possible that you know, maybe one imaginative child made up the whole story and then just kind of spread it along and got everybody stirred into it so that they were all telling the same story and kind of just got everybody involved into it.

Joe: 11:09

And the schoolmaster said he didn't think that was the case, he believed that they really did see something, and the rest of the staff. Well, they had mixed feelings about it. One teacher was saying that he thought they made it all up after hearing news about reports of meteors in the sky which could also have been related to that debris that was seen of the Russian rocket burning up in the atmosphere. There were two other teachers who believed the kids because of the panic that ensued in that day and just the emotion that sort of played out on her faces watching them throughout the rest of the school day, and also because of the drawings that were done by the kids, which were all pretty similar to one another. Mack wrote down that the individual stories about what they had witnessed and which were different in their telling of the incident. They weren't all exactly the same but they seemed to have all observed the same event, the same object and the beings.

Laurie: 12:07

Well, it makes you wonder if the rocket launch had anything to do with the UFO showing up so interestingly, many of the children said that the alien communicated to them without using its voice. So it was using some form of telepathy and it impressed upon their minds a message that told them that people will be dying because of something that will happen in the future. Now, when asked what the message meant, the children replied with pretty much the same answers, which was something about pollution. So basically ecological or environmental disasters, will you know, with all of the trees getting wiped out and there no longer being any air to breathe. So after the interviews, mac spoke with the parents and straight up told the parents that he believed the kids and that he came to the conclusion that the children were talking about a phenomenon that occurred in physical reality. Their stories were consistent and the way they talked about it left virtually no question in their minds that what happened was just about what they said happened. So a total of 43 students were interviewed, with some of them being excited to talk, but others, you know, would only talk off camera, and this is probably because, you know, for the fear of ridicule.

Laurie: 13:35

But we know that with telepathy, you know, there's no need for voices. Images and ideals form inside the person's mind, so has to know what information is being conveyed to them. It's like teleporting, but with, you know, with messages and images, from one brain to another. We teleport messages all day long through emails and text messages without saying a word. So it's only a matter of time before humans will figure out how to transmit through telepathy. If these stories are somewhat true about how many of the encounters use telepathy to get a message across, then you know, if our minds can receive it, then we must have something hidden in our brains or locked in there somewhere, and it's conscious to also transmit eventually. So we just haven't figured it out yet. So we have to ask if something like the experiences of telepathy or ESP is part of, you know, an extraterrestrial agenda.

Joe: 14:43

Interesting notion, like you said, after these interviews were done, Mack was able to determine what occurred and he said that the school kids were playing outside on a Friday morning while the teachers were inside having their staff meeting.

Joe: 14:57

And one little girl then said what got her attention was a weird sound, like the sound of a flute, and another kid's heard a humming kind of sound as well, something that sounded like bees.

Joe: 15:10

And then several of them saw a silver object streaking above them and then it landed somewhere near the trees and, just as any curious bunch of kids would do, they all ran over to where it was and that's when they saw, according to what they told Mac, a four foot tall being or person dressed in what appear to be a bodysuit.

Joe: 15:32

Now this is where it gets kind of strange and eerie, because the creature was seen running through the grass and looked like it was bouncing as if it was on the moon, like in sort of slow motion, like we sometimes see footage of astronauts on the moon. They kind of just bounce, and they were saying the creature was doing the same thing, and they were also only a few feet from it. They made it seem like they went right up to this alien and they weren't like it at a distance but they were just like, almost like arms, went from it and then reported that the ship and the figures were glitching. And these are descriptions that were given to by the kids back in 1994. And they still have those memories and they still tell the story the same way today, even as adults the idea of glitching and I don't think Mack was really clear on what they meant by this glitching.

Laurie: 16:27

Yeah, so some of these kids gave pretty elaborate details, especially about how they said the craft and the beam was glitching. So the way they described it was like it was flickering and this makes me think of a portal that is undergoing a glitch, like a glitch in a matrix maybe, like in that movie. You saw the black cat that went by in a matrix movie. It was like glitching and appearing from one place and another like ahead of itself and whatnot. So it could be something like that and the other reason may be something technological, like what we've seen in the Star Trek, such as a cloaking device missing up on a Klingon ship or like that in that other Star Trek movie called Insurrection, where Starfleet humans were spying on those indigenous people on a planet to monitor them. And then you see the character data kind of like half appear, like they were invisible due to this technology, so they were cloaked. Then we also have one of the girls who described the alien as like it was running in slow motion diagonally down the field and that was frightening because the creature had come down the field and stopped in front of the kids and it caused them to focus on the big black almond shaped eyes and it stood there staring at them and looked as if it wanted to take them away, while communicating through their thoughts, through the lipid thing.

Laurie: 18:03

Now, as far as Nickerson goes, he describes himself as a nuts and bolts kind of guy. He's a realist, according to a blog by Liz Tung on Whyy. Org, that's WHYY. ORG, dated back October 23rd of just last year. But these experiences never lift him, and as he got older, they weighed on his mind, and this reminds me of my brother-in-law, larry, who we had on the show some time ago, because he too is a nuts and bolts type of guy and also a realist. We found out in our interview with him that his sighting back in the 70s had plagued his mind for many years, when he was trying to make some sense of it all and understand what it was that he saw and why he saw it. So Neckerson kept those experiences to himself for many years after the events.

Joe: 19:00

Yeah, and that is until he was contacted by John Mack's family in 2007.

Laurie: 19:06

Yeah, after Mack was killed by a drunk driver, his family wanted Nickerson to do a short film about Mack's work on the aerial school. Nickerson obviously agreed to do it, as he claimed to have a deeply personal reason for wanting to do the film, and that was because Nickerson said that he too had witnessed the UFO at a very young age and that was something he could never explain. But he did it because he could. So obviously he could relate to what happened to the kids.

Joe: 19:36

Yeah, and even told something said something about that on NPR that he doesn't actually like to talk about it, except to say that it had happened more than once to him while he was growing up in Massachusetts.

Laurie: 19:49

So he rather refers to himself as a witness more than a believer, because it takes faith to believe in something. But being a witness to something is saying you see something but you cannot prove it. You believe in what you saw even though you cannot explain what it was. You saw where faith is believing in something you cannot see or have never seen, but believe it exists even without the proof.

Joe: 20:50

Yes. So, Nickerson studied and notes of Mack's interviews with the kids the school kids in Zimbabwe, and then, more than 15 years later, three trips is to Zimbabwe and dozens of interviews of his own, Nickerson was able to piece together one of the most haunting UFO incidents ever recorded. And after it was all said and done, the amazing thing about it was that none of the kids who are now adults, of course had recanted their stories. One did claim to have fabricated his account, according to Nathaniel Janowitz in a blog on vicecom dated October 6, 2023, and in a Netflix series called Encounters.

Joe: 21:34

And then he says that all the others lied about it as well. They of course dispute that.

Laurie: 21:41

Right. So Neckerson he also commented to NPR that you really don't want to say something to somebody that you really care about or that's going to scare them away. You know whether they believe you or not, right? Whether they believe you and that scares them away, or they think you're crazy that scares them away. I really think that people do try to share it and they get some negative feedback and then they learn to be quiet about it. That's what Neckerson was quoted as saying and this is what we see.

Laurie: 22:15

Even today, you can have the experience of witnessing a UFO right above your camping tent per se.

Laurie: 22:24

Now you got to ask yourself do you tell people what you saw or do you keep it to yourself?

Laurie: 22:30

And the fact of the matter is you're going to question who you will trust to tell it to, or whether or not you should say anything, because the thoughts of ridicule will form in your mind. Those who are of a strong religious background or are either straight up skeptical kind of people will most likely not accept yours, or anyone's story of witnessing a UFO. You will either be accused of lying, being on drugs or just straight up crazy. This could be because of a fear of having a well-established belief system, shaken by the threat of something unexplainable, and some may even go as far as to refusing to accept something as possibly being true. So they will resort simply because it is how they find their inner peace, their spiritual quote unquote safe place, so to speak. So, case in point, there was the one little girl whose missionary father would not allow his kids to talk about it, and they ended up returning to Canada. Well, today that girl says that she still has relationship issues and that it's a toil with her memories.

Joe: 23:41

Yes, that brings up the point of social and emotional impact. In 1996, some of those kids were asked in a Dutch TV interview in Amsterdam About what happened when they told their parents, and they responded with answers such as that some of the parents Didn't believe them, or that one parent did but the other one did not. I mean, you know,either wundefined the mother or father believed it, the other one did not. They were told by people that what they saw wasn't true, and so many of them thought that maybe what they saw was not true. I think I'm the question their own sanity, their own judgment and their own memories. Wondering to pay is simply Imagine the whole thing and that's sort of plague their psyches.

Joe: 24:25

Some of them were teased about it to the point where other kids, would you know, taught them same things. Like you know, "Hey, he believes in aliens, he's, he is dumb or he's stupid." And then, once all this came to light and made its way around the globe, mack's close friends and family told him he had gone up the deep end and what was very painful and not to not be believed in, that he was sort of bringing out some really bad memories from these kids and possibly even Making these memories implanted in their, their storytelling. When he was interviewing them, some of his colleagues at Harper University even the Dean that who he worked for put his work under some serious criticism as they alleged that in the course of his exhaustive interviewing that he may have given a sort of a kind of therapeutic credence to some of those delusions, which I guess is like a breach of ethics in his profession.

Laurie: 25:20

Yeah, but in the end ,Harvard cleared Mack of any wrongdoing and he continued writing about UFOs until he was killed in 2004 by that drunk driver. But anyway, you know many, if not all, of whom were involved, including the interviewers Try to not think about it because of the thoughts and questions they conjured up. So you know, joe, we may not have the physical evidence to prove aliens exist, and by that I mean, you know, we can't say, hey, look, here is an actual alien, great. However, we can argue that there is enough evidence by the preponderance. So, in other words, we can affirm that UFOs exists because there are real videos that have recorded them and there are real Photographs of them. They are currently on unidentifiable, but this is evidence that something otherworldly was viewed in our sky. The tic-tac is a great example of this, because it's maneuvering in ways that would kill a human instantly. So now we must assume that this is an object not of this planet, which is actually what one Pentagon spokesperson publicly stated.

Joe: 26:34

Well, just like I how I said last time when we were covering the Varginha Incident, that with any investigation, especially one where there is a lack of physical evidence, it is paramount to follow the facts, that being, to stick with what is known and what is verified. It is demonstrated that whenever these kinds of stories start to get some attention, there's a lot of hysteria that starts to follow. It is, a you know, sort of psychological and sociological process and phenomena, and this story is no exception. I mean, look at the narrative of their message expressing concern about Pollution and the future of our planet. That tends to be part of the pattern of two these encounters, and a lot of it is going to sound like it is a hoax or a conspiracy theory, that there's an agenda to it, and there are indeed going to be a lot of details and versions of the various accounts and how they are inaccurate and false. That is all what you would call a given. What we must, as sober-minded investigators, do is look at the facts that we have and not at what we can speculate from the most Impassioned and extraordinary testimonies. So what we do know is that something happened, something was seen, and 62 children all claimed it and a few adults corroborated it.

Joe: 27:52

You and I both know from our jobs as criminal investigators that eyewitness statements are problematic. Even though they are vital to obtaining information First hand about what happened, they are often not taken as voracious, meaning that they can't stand on their own. Something else has to support it, and the best thing to do is to do that, is Is physical evidence, a photograph, you know, of some piece of imprint in the ground, some burn mark, or a radar image. When someone says that an alien scratched my midsection and that person indeed has a scar from a scratch, that's physical evidence. Now, it's still not verified as true that an alien did it, but it is one more fact that can be used in deducing what had actually occurred.

Laurie: 28:45

Yeah, correct, and it's always the totality of the circumstances, everything put together so right. One eyewitness is not very useful. Multiple ones are more useful and that gives us a preponderance of the evidence. And when we hear stories like this Zimbabwe Incident, which involves multiple witnesses, the innocent minds of children, we must ask, what did they see If they made it up? I I if they conspired together to say to one another "ey "ey, let's make up this outrageous story that no one will believe so we can all get public attention for the rest of our lives? We must ask why, what was their motivation and what was their goal in this? They haven't said what that is. Was it to get money or fame? I mean, that is possible, but what is it more likely, more reasonable? And I would say it is more reasonable to believe that an incident did happen. We do not know exactly what, but something got these schoolchildren to tell their teachers all tell the anecdote... it was not made up.

Joe: 30:05

We might even say that it's more probable as when there is probable cause that something had occurred. Yes, that is correct. We rarely obtain absolute certainty when seeking the truth. So why would this be made up? What is there for the witnesses to gain by lying about something? Even we consider that 200 other children did not claim to see anything at all does not in of itself discount what those 62 did claim. We know there are plenty of times when some big incident occurs and there are people nearby who don't see it. Car collisions can happen right in front of people, and they don't notice it.

Joe: 30:43

So, the inherent problem with the witnesses that the human brain is not a recording device. It is what controls us so that we can thrive in our environment. It receives stimuli from our senses and interprets it into information that is meaningful to understanding the world around us, as well as information as essential to our survival, to our memories of events are formed from cognitive schemas and impressions, in addition to sights and sounds, and as such it is shaped and how we recollect them. And that is based to no small degree on our personal beliefs, our previous memories, our emotions and desires, our language, our physical responsiveness and observation skill, as well as our level of education and intellect. All of these are factors that affect a person's adroitness to recall accurate information on demand, and this is why we write things down or take photographs and make video and audio recordings, because our memories are reliable, but they can definitely be tainted and affected by other factors, and that is all we are saying. You need something else to support it. Something of itself is useful, but it can't stand on its own.

Laurie: 32:01

Right, but things can be remembered and remembered very well, even from events that happened a long time ago, even all the way back to childhood. And another thing to remember and ponder is the fact that after all these years of scrutiny, these kids never recanted or changed their stories, and that says something, says a lot, and it says that with high probability, something strange and bizarre did happen to them, and whatever it was, it was real and now labeled as unexplained. Remember they lost friends over this who were not present to share in witnessing what they saw. Such persistence and commitment to the details of a testimony raised the question of what is at stake. Could it be a personal dedication to preserving the truth?

Laurie: 32:53

How did one of the kids come up with a being glitching and speaking to them telepathically without speaking? So remember, these kids range from ages from 6 to 12. So this has been the case in many, you know, with this telepathically speaking. This has been the case in many UFO abduction reports and a possible telltale sign of a species advancement in evolution is that they exhibit the ability to communicate non organically, meaning without the use of the mouth, the ears, the eyes and hands. It's telepathically. So you never really hear about aliens talking in any kind of voice or audible sound. You know that much is consistent with all of these encounters.

Joe: 33:42

Yeah, I can't think of any story where somebody said that they heard the alien actually using its mouth to speak and that they heard a language. You know, that's the thing about telepathy the idea it would be implanted into the receiver's brain in their own language so there would be no need for interpretation. You know a translator? Yeah, I never hear that at all. It's never. This alien sounded like Ernest Borgnein or something. And I think that goes a long way with the lack of physical evidence that we always run into with these encounters, so that there's never any reliable information left behind, like some audio recording of their voice sounding like Ernest Borgnein.

Joe: 34:26

So, you know, this whole incident we're talking about makes me think of this story of Our Lady of Fatima, in which three children in Portugal saw a vision of the Virgin Mary in 1917.

Joe: 34:38

And it was an apocalyptic message about the fate of the world and that was given in six separate appearances. That culminated in something that is known as the miracle of the sun and that is a spiritual sign which was witnessed supposedly at least according to a local newspaper by over 70,000 people, and this entailed, you know, the quote unquote "Sun seeming to zig-zag in the sky and then careening toward the earth, giving off multicolored lights. It was a lot like a UAP or UFO, doesn't it? And even though this event has been officially recognized as an authentic miracle by the church, there is no corroborating evidence of any kind, just as there isn't with other events and encounters, even just like with this one. What exactly happened? Something, I guess, but we are not going to get the smoking gun proof that we all want. So, the quest goes on, and that's why we ask and analyze these cases the way we do.

Laurie: 35:39

Well, interestingly enough, we do find allusions to extraterrestrial entities and occurrences in the Bible and other ancient texts and quite a few of them really and these suggest that things like ESP and telepathy are part of the structure of those narratives. And there are plenty of places where messages are delivered from the gods to people in the way of dreams and visions or even through trances. Telepathy nation is often part of any religious tradition and has typically been practiced so as to communicate with spiritual beings, at least what are thought to be spiritual beings. We see that many events have happened by way of telepathy or even through dreams.

Joe: 36:26

Yeah, there are plenty of stories in the Bible about communication being done through dreams or through intuition. So who or what these beings were or are angelic or extraterrestrial, however you want to think of them, and how were they able to do those things, is a continual mystery, and for you, apologists and theologians alike. And the big question is, of course, what does it mean for human civilization, and are we closer to understanding what they are? And perhaps our guest for the next show will help us see if we are indeed getting closer to that. So that'll do it for today. We hope you enjoyed this episode. We would love to hear from you. Let us know what your thoughts are about this subject.

Laurie: 37:15

Yeah, and remember, the next episode will air on or around February 4th with our special guest Nancy Thames, extraterrestrial and spirit experiencer and disclosure advocate, and hopefully she can provide us with some valuable insight on what a lot of this all means. So please tune in for that. We think you enjoy the show.

Joe: 37:38

For sure and, as always, thank you for taking the time to join us. Take .care .. and stay curious.