Alien Talk Podcast
Alien Talk Podcast
Alien Demons
Could the entities we've long deemed as demons be extraterrestrial guides misunderstood by ancient civilizations? On this episode of Alien Talk Podcast, we confront this provocative question head-on by unraveling the historical tapestry that ties together the UFO phenomena with ancient mythologies. Are the enigmatic roles of demons within religious contexts truly part of spiritual warfare or are they the psychologically symbols of past extraterrestrial encounters embedded within the collective human unconsciousness.
Journey with us as we explore the spiritual traditions of casting demons through exorcism to warding off the seductive powers of the incubus and succubus, to the identity of evil spirits with the Watchers of the Biblical narrative. By weaving together legends of jinn and cryptids and monsters, we propose that entities like the Alien Greys may just be modern-day reinterpretations of ancient fears, or perhaps, ancient truths.
The lines between religious dogma and extraterrestrial theories blur as we dissect the mythology of ancient deities and demigods. From the apocryphal lore of King Solomon's command over demons to the mysterious legends of Navajo Skinwalkers, we venture into a world where folklore and close encounters intertwine. We invite you to engage with us in our ongoing conversation about parallel aspects of stories about demons, with stories about aliens. Keep your curiosity alive and stay tuned as we dive into these thought-provoking realms.
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Hello everybody, thank you for joining us on Alien Talk Podcast. This is the show where we discuss all things about aliens and UFOs and, as always, where we push the limits of our understanding. Joe Landry and oy Opert here once again to seek out the truth and find the facts pertaining to the highly discussed issues about extraterrestrial life and the existence of UFOs. So we have a great topic to get into with you. First off, lori and I went to the UAP Disclosure Conference this past Sunday evening, which was hosted by the Rialto Theater in Tucson, arizona. The presenting speaker was Luis Elizondo, who most of you know from his appearances on TV shows like Ancient Aliens, the UFO Files and the Unexplained. He is a former program manager with the Department of Defense, former military, as well as a special agent for counterintelligence whose top responsibilities were the investigation of unidentified anomalous phenomena. That is part of the Pentagon UAP Task Force, which is now under the name AOIMSG. It was quite an event. He's an excellent speaker who is very well informed as a subject matter expert.
Laurie:Yeah, it was, and we'll go over some of the highlights that we took from it and present it to you guys in a future episode, and he gave out quite a bit of info, but before I comment further on this, I just want everyone to know that I just got back from Canada and was advised that listeners up there are unable to locate our novel battle planet ad A. D. Relic of the Gods on Amazon. ca, and I was able to locate it by clicking on our names or by searching our author's names on Amazon.
Laurie:So all you got to do is search for Joseph Landry or L. Sheldon Oldford and our books, including our novel. They should pop up, they should appear. Books, including our novel, they should pop up, they should appear, and I assume that anyone else, from whichever country you're listening from, will have to be. You would have to do it the same way. So please let us know if this works and thank you in advance for purchasing the books. So back to the topic. One of the things that has always impressed me about Luis Elizondo is his thorough knowledge about how these government programs are handled and how they are managed by some of our officials, and he has a very pragmatic and efficient approach to the way he investigates UFO cases. Investigates UFO cases.
Joe:Yeah, I think he referred to himself as a nuts and bolts kind of guy when it comes to UAPs and the disclosure and just the overall discussion of what they are. So definitely more to come on that a little later. He's certainly a very knowledgeable about some of the covert and inner workings of our military and Department of Defense and I think he had a big part in the program when it was called AARO. I think it's changed to AOIMSG now, but it was called AARO before that. This is the UAP Task Force, aero being All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office. He did refer to that in his presentation. It was very interesting to listen to. I'm glad we got to go hear him speak. So, yeah, we'd like to talk more about that at a later time in one of our future episodes, most likely the next one.
Joe:We'd like to maybe knock that out in December. So tonight our show is called Alien Demons, so as to correspond to the name of the second show that we did right here on Alien Talk Podcast debuted three and a half years ago, that one being Alien Angels. So, in a similar manner and how we talked about the nature and identity of angels as we find in religion and mythology, we're going to examine the nature and identity of demons to find if there is a connection to the ancient alien narrative.
Laurie:Yeah, so it's going to get exciting. So if you are hanging out with friends or whatnot, get your coffees ready, your glass of whiskey, whatever your favorite drink, sit back, relax and hopefully you enjoy this discussion. But we've all heard of demons and almost all of us have a very negative association with the meaning of the word, and when something or someone is said to be demonic or possessed by demons, it conveys the idea that they or it is pure evil or at least controlled by forces of pure evil. There's nothing good that comes from demons or anything that's demonic, and in the minds of the people most people that would, of course, you know the head demon would be the devil.
Joe:Yeah, so the word comes from the Greek daemon to mean divine spirit. The word comes from the Greek daemon to mean divine spirit, and in the Greco-Roman mythology it did not necessarily mean something malevolent. At least in and of itself it carried a connotation of being something that is, a guide of the conscious that could instill virtue, as Plato had said about Socrates and also about vice. Generally, good people have had good demons at their sides, bad people had bad ones, makes sense. We kind of make the same references even to this in this day and age, about things like spiritual warfare and spirit guides, about how people are possessed by either the spirit of God or the spirit of Satan.
Laurie:Yeah, and that comes. I mean, christianity is totally different than Greek mythology, obviously With Greek mythology, like you said, having some good demons and bad demons, but Christianity, there's only bad demons. But you're right, and thousands of years ago, the idea about spiritual beings mingling around with ordinary people became integrated into the religious views of Judeo-Christianity, with them being associated with the mass of the fallen angels who, along with Satan, were cast out from heaven a long time ago at some undetermined point in time, and that's the biblical narrative on it at some undetermined point in time, and that's the biblical narrative on it.
Joe:Yeah, we know of this account, and it is that of the Watchers, or the Fallen 200, who descended upon Mount Hermon, as is told in the Book of Enoch and reiterated in the Book of Revelation. As we've seen from studying the scriptural narrative, we can find allusions to the ancient alien theory. If angels and deities, and even the recounting of the God of the Bible, can be possibly thought of as our ancestors misunderstood observations from encounters with them, then could the same be said of demons. Are they actually evil spirits and minions of the devil in hell, or could they also be representations of extraterrestrials, as told through the storytelling lenses of ancient writers?
Laurie:Well, you know, joe, back in my street preaching days, I used to debate with people about this and at the time being the fiery young Pentecostal preacher, at the time, I believed that alien greys and reptilians were demons and, to be honest, though, I don't remember hearing any sermons on the subject, but I do remember sermons by pastors preaching about Satan and that you know, he is the prince of darkness and he rules the world and all of its west and he has control over it, rules the world and and all of its uh west, and he has over uh, he has control over it over the world. But this was in relation to the scripture verse in ephesians 6, 12 by the apostle paul, which says for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers and the darkness of this world, against the spiritual wickednesses in high places.
Joe:Yeah, what we have to keep in mind is that Paul was writing a letter to the church in the city of Ephesus, which is on the Mediterranean, or I should say, the Aegean Sea coast in modern-day Turkey and Asia Minor. At the time it was a very important crossroad, not only for commerce and trade, but also for religion, and as such, it was a place where a lot of ideas and beliefs were inter-exchanged. So Paul was trying to advise the Christians there to, quote-unquote put on the armor of God, as he tells them in the next verse, so that they could resist against what is referred to as the cosmic powers of this dark age.
Laurie:Right, and it was there that Christianity was on the rise and therefore taking away many followers of the Greek god Artemis. A silversmith named Demetrius was particularly upset because it affected his business, and Artemis was a goddess of fertility and bounty, like her half-sister, aphrodite, a goddess of love and beauty, who was the daughter of Zeus and Dione. Artemis was closely associated with the moon and its changing phases throughout the month, and of hunting, which is why she is depicted with a bow and arrow, and she had a big following at Ephesus until Christianity came along and it became bad for business.
Joe:Yeah, and this profit-making from the worship of pagan gods and goddesses further added to the focus on how there were invisible forces at work that were bringing about evil and unrighteousness in the world.
Joe:Hence we see the emphasis in the New Testament on how the ways of the world and that would be the first century Greco-Roman world of the Mediterranean and the Middle East are not to be followed by the Christians Middle East and are not to be followed by the Christians.
Joe:In fact, the early church was fixated on the idea that evil spirits were heavily at work in the daily lives of people and that they were constantly under attack by them, to the point where they could fall under complete control by them through bodily possession. There was nothing abstract about it. They believed that the devil and his demons dwelt among them, in the physical world as they knew it, and to rebuke them in the name of a demon called Legion, to have authority over it. When he cast it or them out of a man at Gerasenes, they begged him not to send them off into the abyss. And also we see in the works of the second century church fathers like Tertullian and Origen that this authority is said to be passed on to all Christians and that they are free from the threat of ever being possessed by a demon. So we can see in the theological formula of a sinful life, with the possession by unclean spirits, that there is a power structure to this.
Laurie:Yeah, and you just mentioned something that. So if you look on YouTube, you'll see tons of videos about aliens and demons now, and a lot of preachers are actually talking about, you know, demons or aliens coming into bedrooms and people mentioning the name of Jesus and the alien grace I guess they're talking about immediately leave. Well, it's like these night terrors that people have, where this entity comes into your room and you feel it, and then you start saying the name of Jesus and it goes away. So the problem is and we've brought this up before where the name of Jesus, the actual J-E-S-U-S didn't come about. For what? 500, 600 years ago, because they didn't have that J before and it used to be Yesus and then it came from Yeshua.
Joe:Right, um, right, yes, I mean. Uh, by the time the you know the Greek texts, the early new Testament manuscripts, were being written, the name Jesus would have been the translation from Joshua. Um so yes, jesus and Joshua have the same meaning of he who brings salvation. Um so yes, in the name of Jesus. Um Jesus, I guess, would be in the name of Joshua. I think that's the literal sort of practice or understanding of that of saying in the name of Jesus, the demons flee.
Joe:I don't know if that isn't taken to a point, you know, where there's really sort of an ad hoc explanation. I mean, have we ever seen this happen? We've seen in the movies like Exorcist, where it's a long ordeal, long process, where somebody is possessed and they have to be exorcised. It's not just simply say the name Jesus once and poof everything is better, not just simply say the name Jesus once and poof everything is better.
Joe:It actually, from what you see in the movie the exorcist, and also we hear from accounts from priests who work with the Vatican as exorcists that it could take weeks or even months of continual prayer and continual repetition of continual prayer and continual repetition, chanting of many different prayers, usually in Latin, before the person is free of the demon. So I mean you see kind of a hodgepodge. I mean I've seen those videos as well and I've been to many church events where someone is acting like they're possessed by a demon. They're kind of angry and growling and everything like that, and usually people, the church, the minister is laying hands on them and praying and eventually they calm down. It's kind of maybe part of a phenomenon of mass hysteria, I don't know.
Laurie:Yeah, yeah, I know that when I I mean in my younger days I would do that, I feel that presence come in and then I would say Jesus, and then you know he would go away. But the thing is, when I had those night terrors it was because I was extremely and overly tired. It was so real that I looked up, I came out of my sleep and there was this grim reaper sitting at the foot of my bed just looking at me. And it was so real I just raised my head. I didn't say Jesus or nothing, I just looked at it and said whatever, I don't have time for this.
Joe:Laid my head back down, went back to sleep. It could be in the name of Jesus. We're just simply saying whatever, and the demon will flee. I mean, obviously, other cultures, other religions have different phrases that are said to make evil spirits flee. In the Christian tradition it's the name of Jesus. In the Old Testament, before there was Jesus, that wasn't the practice of simply saying a name and casting out a demon Prayer. A lot of intercession, perhaps even animal sacrifice, had to be done to purge someone believed to be possessed by an evil spirit.
Laurie:Right, well, reference to the pagan gods. Notice how these gods and goddesses they are all brothers and sisters, husband and wives, etc. Right With Greek mythology and such. And Artemis, too, was one of the 12 Olympians and a sister to Apollo, the sun god. Now, where did you hear that before? Well, from the Sumerian pantheon and from the Babylonian pantheon. Here we have correlating mythologies. Apollo is Shamish, the sun god, whose twin sister is in Adah, or Ishtar, goddess of fertility, love and hunting. She is Artemis to the Greeks, deanna to the Romans.
Laurie:And, as you said, joe, these are the principalities and powers that Paul was talking about. Who are the rulers in the darkness of this world? They are the wickedness in high places was loaded with cult followers of these deities, to which the early Christians attributed the absolute decrepitation of society as well as its complete moral downfall. And we also find throughout Paul's epistles, as well as in the Gospels, of demons being cast out of people. So they were taught as being quite powerful enough so that they could overcome someone. And it seems that ordinary people had some kind of unfair disadvantage when they were involved. And I can't help but think of how similar that notion is to how, during an alien encounter, and especially during an alien abduction, that the person is likewise at a disadvantage to the capabilities of these ETs.
Joe:Well right. So we have to wonder, you know, are the alien greys the ones we know from our contemporary culture? Are they the agents that have been construed as demons over centuries or millennia, maybe even misrepresented as such? Or vice versa? Maybe aliens are being thought of as demons?
Joe:Demons being thought of as aliens and I mean greys kind of look demonic, and of course so do reptilian aliens, but I don't want to focus know this appearance so much of the demons or evil spirits as looking lizard-like.
Joe:That is indeed the classical depiction we see of them and many sources of literature and artwork from around the world, but it's also not all inclusive. They're not always described as reptilian. There are quite a few sources from cultures that talk about demons looking more mammalian, some almost looking exactly like human beings, some even that look like an inanimate object, even as the presence of light or sound or some kind of sensation. Within the Arabic and Muslim lore, there are tales about the jinn, who are an entire race of beings, very powerful beings, who exist side by side with humans and who can not only shapeshift but can make themselves completely invisible if they want. Of course, that belief parallels others in which there is a spiritual realm that is all around us yet cannot be seen. It can only be manifested within the affairs of human relationships and interactions and through special revelation.
Laurie:Yeah, and we can also see that such an idea also fits in with the existence of extraterrestrials. Adduction reports usually draw a parallel with stories of people saying that they have encountered some kind of demonic entity. In our Western culture, a demon is typically defined as an evil spirit or devil, and these entities are sometimes described as spiritual and non-tangible, where their presence is felt but not seen. And oftentimes they are said to be more corporeal, with a bodily form, and some people will recall them as having a frightful appearance. It's like a reptilian, probably, or a gray and something like a cryptid or or something very beastly. Yet other times they are said to look benign and even beautiful. But is this the hard proof that aliens are one in the same as demons? No, of course not. I mean. To a born again Christian I would say perhaps yes, but not to anyone else.
Laurie:As we have discussed before, the Greys or some other potential extraterrestrial species may be something like helpers, guides, facilitators or guardians of humanity, of humanity.
Laurie:However, their true purposes and motives for interacting with us may be quite misunderstood, and this idea may be a nuggles to how animals respond in fear to people doing things to try to help them or the environment in which they live. And think about how a dog acts when someone tries to free it from a confined place where it is in danger. The dog tries everything it can to avoid a person and even bite the person, regardless that the person knows it is doing the right thing for the dog. So, despite the dog's experience of terror, the person continues to do what he's doing because he sees the bigger picture and the dog, ultimately, will be better off after being taken away from where it is Now. According to an article in the Skeptical Inquirer by Susan Blackmore found on her website and dated back March 25th of 2002, that there are 4 million Americans who claim to have been abducted and that about 40% indicate that it happened in their homes while they were asleep.
Joe:That is interesting, and with that we find the ancient tales of the incubus and the succubus, and it goes all the way back to the time of the Babylonians. It's ancient, very old. These are demonic beings, spiritual yet often taking on fleshly form, and they perform sexual acts on people. Incubi are masculine and succubi are feminine. People strongly believe in their existence all the way through the Middle Ages, where they became part of the church catechism, now the Jewish Talmud. It speaks of a she-demon who is said to be the first wife of Adam, made before Eve. She was banished from the garden for not obeying Adam and thus ended up becoming one of the fallen ones. Only she was a female.
Joe:This is not in the canon. This is the Talmud, which wouldn't be considered an inspired scripture, but it does exist in the mythological tradition of Jewish thought. Tradition of Jewish thought. Now, in an article from 1937, emile Kraling, with the Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, claims there is literary and archaeological evidence that connects Lilith with the Mesopotamian deity Inanna. Now she is found in the Epic of Gilgamesh as well as many other stories from Assyrian, babylonian and Sumerian mythology, and this would be an indication of this very early association of gods and goddesses with either the identity of the demons or else their representation of their struggles against demons.
Laurie:Yeah, that's quite interesting and you know, I remember speaking to Giorgio Tsikalos at an AlienCon conference some time ago and I told him about how I had hoped to bring more Christians in line with accepting some of the ancient alien theory and academic merit of it merit of it and he said that will be great, Just don't refer to them as demons. And I think he meant the alien graves, of course, but he was saying at least I think this is what he was saying he was saying that, as a former preacher, you know, don't tell Christians that aliens are demons. Like, don't make the excuse that, oh, those alien graves, that's just demons.
Joe:And don't blame theys for demonic activity, right? Well, I think I'm going to have to disagree with Giorgio. I think any extraterrestrial being could very well fit the imagery that we obtain from ancient sources about a demon, whether it be benevolent or, as they are sometimes depicted, or a sinister one. If you're going to want to make some kind of connection between Christianity and the idea of alien encounters, it seems you would have to at least try to show the parallel in the narratives about demons and ETs. The cinematics may be different, but in the comparative literary tradition the common feature is just that they can't be flatly dismissed is because you don't like calling aliens demons. Otherwise, we are trying to make a special plea that whatever people are talking about, you know they're talking about conjuring spirits, and I mean any kind of spirit. It is not anything about aliens, when it may very well be the exact same phenomena.
Laurie:Well, I agree.
Laurie:I believe that it is a fair premise to say if the ancients could have misunderstood Hittites as gods, they could also have misunderstood them as demons as well as angels. Eventually, the descriptions of aliens could have become what is now known to be where we get the stories of demons throughout the Bible. And you know, joe, you and I actually illustrated that very idea in our sci-fi novel that we just co-authored this year. We took the characterization of one alien race, which is the reticulans, as the beings who are set on. You know, they're helping the human race survive in the face of a threat from a different race of beings, which are the Niberians and the ones who had played a major hand in our evolution. So they're the Anunnaki, really, but they're from the planet Nibiru. So this would be consistent with the idea that demons were not always conceived as evil tormentors but, like in the greek tradition, tradition where uh were more like mentors to um, to people that helped illuminate for them the true reality of the spirit of the spiritual world and material world in which we live.
Joe:Right, and our book illuminates the roles that different alien species may serve in their contact with humanity. Of course, nibirians. Not only do they have a role in our evolution, but they're also trying to enslave us. In our novel and you know also, we show that some demon beings are benevolent and that idea is not very uncommon in the association of the minds of ancient people. They found that they're not always ugly and wicked and vile.
Joe:But sometimes we find the Bible even mentioning sons of God. And in Genesis 6.1, we see it reads Now it came to pass when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them. It goes on with saying the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. Now in the book of Enoch the sons of God were closely identified with the fallen 200, the fallen angels.
Joe:These are the demons in the orthodox theology of Judeo-Christianity. In these passages they are presented as sons of God, not demons, sons of God or sons of Ego-Him, and that they are infatuated by the beauty of the daughters of men. Enoch 7.1 has these children of heaven again, the demons, all children of heaven, lusting after them, saying come, let us choose wives from among the children of men and beget us children. So we have to ask at what point do the fallen ones transition from sons of God, whose only vice seems to be sexual desire, and then go into evil spirits who are doing the devil's dirty work and actually spreading sinfulness throughout the world?
Laurie:Yeah, and it's said that they gave up their places with God or the Elohim, and after marriage to their human wives, they later became known as the fallen ones, and it says they taught mankind the art of metallurgy, husbandry, jewelry making, and also gives their names as well.
Laurie:And were these ancient texts describing beings descending from the sky, slash the heavens, an actual race of ancient astronauts? So, right at some point in religious history, they take on the image of actors of evil and destruction because they went against God's rules and you know, possessing people's bodies and wreaking havoc in the world, when in reality, I believe they were just spacecraft pilots of the ancient skies. And Genesis uses the term sons of God, enoch calls them angels, the children of heaven. So there is a good bit of confusion as to who these beings really were. So there is a good bit of confusion as to who these beings really were, but to the ancient people they were understood as otherworldly, and over time, religious dogma divided them up into two separate camps angels who dwell in heaven and serve God and angels who had been cast out along with the devil Lucifer. And they become known as the fallen ones or the fallen angels, and later they became associated with the ideas of demons who eventually were taught of as malevolent.
Joe:Yeah, so the Aniaki, of course, are what we would call the gods in the Sumerian pantheon. We've referenced that many times. What we would call the gods in the Sumerian pantheon. We've referenced that many times. It's a word derived to mean the descendants of Anu, who is the chief deity of the Sumerians, and they can be understood as the extraterrestrials from the planet Nibiru. Zachariah Sitchin explained that in his series, the Earth Chronicles, of how that could be sort of explained and demonstrated through literary tradition and through archaeological evidence. And when we're talking about the watchers, we really mean those beings who are sort of directly interacted with humans and taught the knowledge by which to help us in advance as a species, perhaps breaking from the hierarchy of their own world. They watched or guided our progress. The offspring of them, with human females, were known as the Nephilim, which is a bit of a mysterious word. It comes from the Hebrew as meaning ones who have descended. However, it has also been loosely translated as meaning giants, which we find in parts of the Old Testament Most well-known is from Genesis 6-4, as they seem to be the reason for God wanting to send the flood and if they are the ones to whom the meaning of a demon has become portrayed in Judaism and Christianity, then it does not appear that God was totally successful in eliminating them, because they're apparently still around. There are also references to beings in the Sumerian and Akkadian traditions, as a gigi, who were said to be like servants to the Anunnaki, and this is kind of muddying the mythological waters even more, the mythological waters even more. They could possibly be a different extraterrestrial species altogether, maybe ones who rebelled and possibly are the same as the Watchers, who have a more benevolent, benign approach to interaction with humanity, actually adoring humanity, at least the womenfolk right.
Joe:They of course also can be called gods, angels, sons of gods, titans, watchers and fallen ones. They may all refer to the same thing. They may all refer to beings from beyond this planet, and all of them, according to the early church fathers, would represent nothing short of demonic entities. They're often thought to change form sometimes, and other religions have them going from one form to another, let's say to something more cuter and cuddlier. It is told in Celtic, gaelic, nordic and Germanic folklore of how demons have the capability to metamorphosize into animals like rabbits, dogs and birds and that are more appealing to human eyes. So it's to deceive people into allowing them to get close enough to deliver curses upon them or evilness upon them. We even find Paul saying in 2 Corinthians 11, 14, that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light. So this is a persistent detail that we find in the conceptualization of evil entities, that is, that they can change into other things, often much better looking things that are appealing to the human eye.
Laurie:Yeah, and the reptilians are, as you would expect, referred to as tall and scaly they don't look pretty at all and sometimes having tails. But the question is, how and why did this type of being come to exist in our culture? As being an ancient entity that resides underground, Because this is where demons are supposed to come from, underground, which would be, I guess, where hell would be and it probably originated from the tale of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The reptilians are often portrayed, as you know, grotesque creatures that prey on human flesh and thirst for human blood. Is it possible that the reptilians are among several races of giants referenced in the Bible? I mean, they might be the Rephium, a group known to have occupied the land of Canaan before being defeated by the Israelites. However, according to Deuteronomy 2, 11 to 20, the Rephium were also described as inhabitants of the underworld, and this description bears a striking resemblance to that of the reptilians.
Laurie:Now, when we envision the demonic realm, we frequently picture demons with fearsome faces and sharp teeth, poised to attack and consume both body and soul. Right, but the reptilians may be similar in appearance to that of frightful demons. So Revelation 9, 1-7,. It describes large, locust-like beings with curved tails resembling scorpions and teeth like lions which are meant to torment humans for up to five months and, according to the passage, these beings were released from the abyss which is in the bottom and down below, but this wasn't until after an object had crashed into the earth. So I mean, does this story attempt to depict the reptilians emerging from underground, or you know, a capsule crashing into the earth and you know aliens coming out of it?
Joe:Yeah, and that's kind of interesting that we have this imagery of, of course, heaven being high in the sky and that's where God and angels and you know good spirits dwell, and then you have under the ground, where there's a devil and the demons and bad spirits. It's just to show the polarization, I think, of the good being so far above and, of course, the evil being below. But the imagery may derive from something like you're saying at some point, the story of these entities coming from trashes, from underground, where it might be a lot of destruction, and that imagery may have persisted in the prehistoric narrative of told about gods who come from the abyss or come from the ground. That abyss may be nothing more than impact points from where they've landed from another world out in space, landed from out from another world, about in space. Now, when we you know talking about, you know, demons, you know there was a victorian era occultist named helena blavatsky and we've talked about her quite a bit and the notion that she believed is that there's these demonic creatures, that they're not in hell, underground, that they're walking around everywhere.
Joe:They're called archons and they are everywhere, often shapeshifted into some other form, and they were also thought by the first century Gnostics. They lived in places like Alexandria, jerusalem and Edessa. They were thought to be responsible for bringing about all the villainy and turmoil in the world and were actually held in positions of leadership in the world, and that's why the world has so many problems and still does. They were thought to dwell everywhere and there are apocryphal and pseudiographic sources in the literature from Judaism and Islam that tell of how King Solomon Again, this is non-canon. You're not going to find this in the Bible. These are stories that are apocryphal. It tells of how King Solomon had the power to control demons and rule them and actually put them to work, actually do physical labor. In one of the stories, king Solomon tricked a demon named Asmodeus into helping him build the temple in Jerusalem, tricked him into doing the hard labor, and that is a story that persists in esoteric Judaism and esoteric Islam.
Laurie:Yeah, and we get a lot of reports and lots of stories in reference to these archons and they could be ancestors of skinwalkers, maybe, or they could be somewhat related to the reptilians. Demons are frequently portrayed with reptilian characteristics, even though they are regarded as spiritual, or you know reptilian characteristics even though they are regarded as spiritual, or you know malevolent entities at times. But these beings, they often manifest in monstrous forms, such as lizards, snakes or even dragons. And when we refer to someone as being possessed by a demon, it implies that the individual is under its control, much like a puppet or a shell inhabited by a demon. And in this scenario the demon effectively takes over the person's body and its faculties.
Laurie:And a good movie to watch is called Nefarious and all it is. It's just this prison inmate who is controlled by a demon. I forget the demon's name. But then there's this psychologist that comes into interviewing and it's just amazing acting, how this guy is able to transform from this demon to the actual person. But that's what demon position? If you believe in demon position, if you watch that movie, nefarious, that's exactly how I guess it is portrayed.
Joe:Right and among the early Christians. You know, this idea about demons corresponded directly to paganism. So paganism and pagan beliefs were seen as works of the devil and pagan gods were seen as handiwork of or servants of the devil. And pagan gods were seen as a handiwork of or servants of the devil were and they were demons. I mean, a pagan God was simply a demon in the minds of early Christians and that tradition has carried on into. You know the stories of incubi and succubi who had to, like we said, the ability to shapeshift into beautiful forms and can seduce people into having sex with them, to shapeshift into beautiful forms and can seduce people into having sex with them.
Joe:This belief was quite prominent among Puritan parishes in New England during the time of the Salem Witch Trials.
Joe:That was only 300, some odd years ago. In that case young women were condemned for having had sexual intercourse with the devil or with a demon, and a lot of times this was attributed to unexplained pregnancies or false pregnancies. That was considered the evidence, the indicator that a girl had sex with a demonic being. And this whole idea harkens back to what we've said before in the book of Enoch about how the fallen angels and they're the ones who again are identified as demons. What did they do? Well, they lost it after women want to have sex with them, against their will often. So it could be that there is an extraterrestrial association of demons archons, djins in Middle Eastern lore, wendigos in Native American lore and other evil beings, and that is the encounters our ancestors may have had with alien species sometime way in the distant past, and not just with the Anunnaki, but with others like alien greys and reptilians. And they're even more enigmatic in some of their capabilities and technological advancements.
Laurie:Yeah, and like they say with the djinn, they just appear and disappear out of nowhere, and they do, apparently, have sex with some people who they abduct and who they visit into their rooms at night. This may serve as the source material for spiritual figures such as the devil and demons, which could be linked to stories of ancient astronauts later identified as the Watchers or the Fallen Ones. As detailed in the Book of Enoch, and notably in chapters 8 and 9, these beings relinquished their positions among the Elohim the Hebrew term for God in the plural, after taking human wives. They imparted this knowledge to humanity in various fields, which we said, including the middleurgy, husbandry and the jewelry making, which can be viewed as a transfer of advanced technology. The Book of Enoch also includes their names, and it's a detail that's absent in the Bible.
Laurie:This presents a challenge to the traditional understanding of angels, and if they are indeed spirits, how could they experience love or lust for women? How could they engage in procreation, women? How could they engage in procreation? For this to be possible, they would need to possess a physical flesh and blood form, and many believe that the skinwalkers are shape-shifting witches that are part of the dark magic and come here via portal openings in some special locations, portal openings in some special locations, where a lot of them are reported to be on Navajo lands, and some people believe that skinwalkers are merely legends, similar to figures like the boogeyman and werewolves. At times, the descriptions of skinwalkers seem to resemble those of alien greys, you know the thin bodies with skin draped over their bones, skin over skeleton, capable of moving quickly, among other traits. And I mean I don't think they are the alien greys, though, because in Navajo the phrase yei naraushi means with with it. He goes on all forth.
Joe:So this doesn't match what we think of as an alien grey at all well, just about every culture has its legends and tales of demons that roam the earth the banshees, and the Celtic and Gaelic lore, sirens and Greek mythology, like we said, the djinn of the Arabs, the golem of the Jews, the boogeyman of the Anglo-Germanic peoples and they're all variants of that kind of the same thing, and there's no shortage of them. Even the shamans and witch doctors, who are nothing more than tribespeople, are often said to be possessed by spirits that are wicked and devilish, also than tribespeople are often said to be possessed by spirits that are wicked and devilish Also, they consider how practices of black magic and voodoo around in the Caribbean islands. So there's plenty of ghost stories that go around about demons. As far as the devil, you know, just like God, the devil being the head demon, he's believed to be transcendent, just like God, meaning that he is not bound by the restrictions of space and time like we are. And just as God is all-knowing and all-present, it seems, so is he, at least to an extent, and depending on which denomination or faith that you affiliate with, he possesses a degree of power that is comparable to that of God. Some believe that he is subdued and defeated and confined to hell, yet able to affect greatly the affairs of humanity. And then there are others who say that he is not yet confined there and therefore is free to roam about with his demons and wreak havoc on everyone. Either way, he is thought of as the embodiment of all evil, at least in the Abrahamic religions, and the one who has brought about the fall of man all the way back in the beginning. He's to blame for all of the problems.
Joe:So most of the other names we find with him is Lucifer. It's like the devil Satan, beelzebub, azazel, asmodeus, and these all mainly come from later usages. Throughout the parts of the world, of the Middle East and Europe Now, lucifer is considered to be the antithesis of God, who is of course all good, who is of course all good. Now it gets kind of esoteric when we talk about the dogma, the contradiction between God and the devil. We'll just consider his personages in relation to his name, lucifer. Like the name of Yahweh, lucifer is derived from ancient linguistics. The Bible is fairly ambiguous on the personification and the description of the devil. His character really isn't developed until a little more well in the Septuagint. It talks a little more about his character, but most of our understanding of him comes more from church teaching and portrayals of things like you know, paradise Lost by John Milton, which was written in the 17th century. So what is he really? Well, perhaps the image we have of a Lucifer goes back to when humanity had encountered, you know, the Anunnaki, the aliens.
Laurie:But Lucifer is. He's often regarded by millions as the ultimate tempter of mankind. He's responsible for bringing sin into the hearts of individuals. Yet if Lucifer was created by God, then who is believed to be the creator of all? And if he once dwelled in heaven, how could this being become consumed by pride and jealousy? Now, what could drive him to instigate a rebellion in a divine, holy, perfect and spiritual realm such as heaven? And this inquiry reflects the ancient writers' interpretations of the scriptural narrative surrounding the conflict of good versus evil.
Laurie:However, let's explore this from a different perspective the ancient alien perspective. So envision an advanced alien civilization arriving on Earth hundreds of thousands of years ago, sharing a resemblance with modern humans, the Homo sapiens, in both appearance and behavior, and they possessed a technology to embark on interstellar missions to our planet. And ultimately they intervene with the course of human evolution. And these extraterrestrial beings lived, they walked and communicated, they dined and imparted knowledge to our primitive ancestors about science, astronomy, agriculture and even religion, just like we had talked about from the Book of Enoch, and what the Watchers, the angels, had done there with humans. So, like a scene from a science fiction film intergalactic spaceships engaged in dramatic battles overhead, you know, complete with laser fire, full-time torpedoes.
Laurie:It was during these epic conflicts that Earth, a newly discovered planet which was rich with life and precious metals you metals became the center of attention.
Laurie:A civilization of these giant extraterrestrials exploits a planet for mining operations and among them, one individual seeks to gain sole control and become the new supreme commander. He rallies a substantial following in attempt to overthrow the current leadership, but, however, his coup d'etat ultimately fails, leading to his banishment, along with his supporters, from the organizational hierarchy. They then crash land on the planet's surface, the being Earth, and this event may lie at the heart of the ancient narratives about a cosmic war which could have misinterpreted the story of Lucifer and his fallen angels from their memories, with their lexicons, to a point where, you know, a space battle taking place in the sky has become, you know, metamorphosed into a spiritual one taking place in the heavens or from heaven, and this story, along with others in the Bible, has been repeated and edited over and over again to fit the narrative of the religion over and over again to fit the narrative of the religion, this pattern of storytelling that you're talking about.
Joe:It is prevalent in various mythologies where there's this animosity among the gods, and it's very apparent. So the notion of a principal deity acting as a primary antagonist to a supreme deity is a recurring theme in many religions, and this concept is resonated with people in ancient times as they perhaps witness conflicts going on among humans, leading them to naturally expect a similar kind of rivalry and discord among the gods. So belief in the supernatural and things that are otherworldly has always permeated the minds of people and to where it is, a sublimated and unconscious process that fulfills our, our tendency, almost like a genetic disposition, to believe in something beyond the here and now. Humans are sort of born to want to believe in things that they haven't seen for themselves, but they have a drive, a need, need for faith, if you will.
Laurie:So you know the word Lucifer. It comes from the Latin lucum feri, which is bringer of light. We see in Isaiah 14, 12, and 14, it says how you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn, you have been cast down to earth. We know that the prophet is talking about Hila. He's a Babylonian king and son of a Shahar Shahar means God of dawn in Ugaritic and he has a brother, shalem, which means God of dust, and they are both born of El. So this is who Isaiah is talking about. He's not talking about the devil Lucifer.
Laurie:Saint Jerome was a priest who lived between 347 to 420 AD.
Laurie:He mistook the metaphor in the book of Isaiah when writing the Vulgate, the Latin translation of the Bible, and he fabricated Lucifer as being the morning star and a disobedient angel, based on the vile reputation of a heretic named Lucifer Calamarius of Sardinia.
Laurie:And the identity of this individual is unmistakably associated with various textual redactions of the scriptures linked to figures such as the devil, satan, the deceiver and the prince of darkness.
Laurie:It is important to recognize that the book of Isaiah was written between 700 and 686 BC, long before any biblical manuscripts were translated into Latin, so this clearly indicates that the term Lucifer was introduced much later, meaning the original text did not identify an antagonist named Lucifer or Satan. So, consequently, the myths surrounding this figure are undoubtedly rooted in other characters, most likely from Mesopotamian cultures, and the book of Revelation describes how Lucifer's pride and arrogance emerged when he resided in heaven, leading to his eventual fall. Our ancestors, however, had limited knowledge and vocabulary to explain such phenomena, and when they witnessed alien spacecraft descending from the sky, they interpreted these sightings through the lens of their own belief, telling stories of gods or angels coming down from the heavens. Lacking a conceptual framework for beings from other planets or the advanced technology they observed, they struggled to articulate what they saw. As a result, the myths passed down through generations reflect these encounters using the language and ideas available to them at the time.
Joe:Well, I mentioned the Gnostics of the second century AD, and they actually believed that the God of the Bible, who we would know as the Creator, was a character called Yaldabaoth, and that he was not the true God.
Joe:That would have been a much more superior and a much more abstract and more remote God, much, much more remote. And while Yaldabaoth is not conventionally regarded as the devil, he displays certain traits that are reminiscent of Lucifer, including an excessive sense of pride and arrogance that prevents him from recognizing any existence of a higher power. So Yaldabaoth perceives himself as the true God, an actual creator, despite not fulfilling that role, and remains oblivious to the presence of a superior deity who created even more to include himself. That superior god created Yaldabaoth, who created the known universe that we see. So this megalomania, accompanied by vengefulness and pettiness and self-serving behavior, underscores his lack of divine perfection. Consequently, the inherent flaws within the physical realm of our existence can be attributed to Yaldabaoth, who is a flawed creator of earth, rather than a true God, who is perfection. So they attributed the imperfection of our world to an imperfect creator, who is not the true perfect God of our world, to an imperfect creator, who is not the true perfect god.
Joe:obviously, this was rejected as uh hearsay I hear a say by the early christians um, and it was hardly consistent in the beliefs back then about the forces of good and evil and it wasn't consistent with the ideas about god and the devil, so it was completely rejected.
Laurie:and as they were rejected as heretics, Of course, there is also a parallel in Sumerian mythology with a Lucifer-like rebellion in the story of Alalu, who becomes dethroned by Anu as the king of Nibiru. After suffering defeat in a significant battle, alalu found himself ostracized by his peers and had no choice but to flee his own planet, nibiru, in search of refuge on Earth. Unfortunately, during his journey, his spacecraft encountered severe difficulties and ultimately crashed, rendering him unconscious upon impact. And when he finally regained consciousness, alilu exited his damaged vessel to survey his surroundings and, to his astonishment, he discovered a remarkable wealth of gold scattered across the landscape, glimmering in the sunlight. Recognizing that the gold could play a crucial role in addressing the dire situation facing Nibiru Addressing the dire situation facing Nibiru, specifically the urgent need to restore and replenish its deterring atmosphere, he felt compelled to act. And, with a sense of responsibility for his planet's survival, alilu initiated communication with his homeworld. He carefully sent back the coordinates of Earth's location, hoping to inform his fellow Nibirians of the precious resources available and the potential for salvation through the wealth he had found.
Laurie:This discovery marked the beginning of a new hissing sound pierced the tranquil air and it startled him. He lifted his gaze and there before him lay a serpent, a snake, its scales shimmering like jewels in the dappled sunlight, and it was a creature he had never encountered before, his scales shimmering like jewels in the dappled sunlight. And it was a creature he had never encountered before, so it was unfamiliar and it was menacing. And fear gripped him and, without thinking, he raised his weapon and struck swiftly, ending the creature's life in this moment, life in this moment. And so in this moment we can trace a profound connection between the divine and the serpent, a relationship echoed in countless stories throughout time, notably in the tale of the fall of the Garden of Eden, where a dramatic conflict unfolds between these two ancient forces, and you can read about this story in the Lost Book of Enki by Zechariah Sitchin.
Joe:Yeah, so what this tells us is there quite a few alternative perspectives on the mythology of the creation of the earth and indeed the whole universe and also the origin of good and evil. Judeo-christianity is being one of them. There are many of them that exist in a similar sort of style, sort of format, but obviously the characters and a lot of the backdrop is a little bit different. Like Enki is the son of Anu and the half-brother of Enlil, is frequently mischaracterized as the serpent due to his role in providing wisdom to humanity. In that mythology, in that narrative you were talking about Laurie the serpent tempts Eve.
Joe:In the story we have in the Bible, it tempts Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, which leads the authors of Genesis to depict the serpent as malevolent in the Garden of Eden narrative that they wrote. This reflects a notable hostility that Enlil harbors toward Enki. Importantly, enki later devised a plan to save humanity from the flood which was ordered by Anu and Enlil wanting to wipe out humanity. Enki wants to save humanity and acts against their plan, as well as the other members of the Anunnaki, and he's the one who warned Ziasudra, who is aka Noah, to build a boat in the hopes of sparing humanity's annihilation.
Laurie:Yeah, so in these Sumerian texts, enki was lord over the abyss. The term abyss should not be understood in the conventional context of hell. It actually refers to the southern hemisphere of the earth known as the lower world, particularly within the Abzu, where the deity Enki resides. The Apsu is characterized not by darkness but by brightness and purity and abundance of water resources, and Enki is recognized as the lord of many waters inhabiting the central region of the Apsu in the lower world, which corresponds to, I think, probably around present-day South Africa.
Joe:Well, it's also important to note in these imperative literary depictions of the story of the fall, the serpent is not directly identified as Satan. It is inferred from textual hermeneutics that being the wisest and the crappiest of preachers in the garden and that he was using his knowledge to trick Eve and then Adam into eating the fruit that was forbidden by God. That he must be the devil. But it doesn't say directly. It's inferred through later readings in the scriptures. So it's more or less assumed that the serpent was behaving this way as the devil is a shapeshifter, or else he's being used as an instrument by Satan. I mean the very fact that he's able to talk to Eve in the story must mean evil is afoot right?
Joe:You know, Carl Jung passionately studied the varied symbolism concerning serpents and Lucifer and evil and wisdom.
Joe:He was actually almost obsessed with the psychological relationship among all those and, using somewhat illusory methods, he explained that their meanings are found deeply hidden in the images of our deepest psyches, such that they relate to God and the devil, angels and demons and good and evil, and they represent archetypes that have become manifested in the way of dreams, visions and myths that stem from a collective memory that we all inherit as part of our mental processes.
Joe:We have an innate and instinctual and somewhat subconscious drive to connect with what our ancestors had experienced and to connect with what we believe is the spiritual. So, with all the cultures around the world and with all their complex and diverse mythologies, is it possible that there is going to be misunderstanding and misinterpretation about things like spiritual dogma and demons? We all know for a fact that that is the case. Therefore, it could also be the case that faith and scriptures in this context, are ways to satisfy that drive and that they unveil these images in our minds of a time long, long ago when humanity was in contact with nothing other than extraterrestrial beings. So, as always, you, the audience, must decide for yourselves, and that will wrap it.
Laurie:Yeah, we want to thank all of you for joining us once again. Let us know your thoughts on this topic by sending us a message via our website, alien talk podcast dot com, our Facebook page or on our Facebook messenger. We would love to hear from you and hear your thoughts.
Joe:Yeah, we sure would, and next time we hope to bring you some of the points brought from Luis Elizondo conference that we attended. We'd hope to do that next month, in December. There were some things that were particularly noteworthy and that were brought up in how we as ordinary people are to fully understand unidentified aerial phenomena. He did so both by giving facts and by illustrating some common misconceptions about UAPs and UFOs. So we look forward to that. Until then, stay curious.
