Alien Talk Podcast
Alien Talk Podcast
Atrahasis: An Alien Flood Story
What if the story of Noah's flood was derived from a much older tale where the gods destroyed humanity not because of sin, but because humans were too noisy? The Atrahasis, an epic inscribed on clay tablets dating back to 1650 B.C., reveals a startlingly different motivation behind the Great Flood than what most of us learned in religious education.
Discovered in the forgotten Library of Ashurbanipal among the ruins of ancient Nineveh, this Mesopotamian text describes how the gods created humans as laborers to dig irrigation channels and grow food for divine consumption. When humanity multiplied and became too loud, the irritated god Enlil attempted to exterminate them—first with disease, then with famine, and finally with a catastrophic flood. Meanwhile, the clever god Enki found loopholes to help humanity survive each crisis, eventually saving Atrahasis (the "exceedingly wise one") by speaking flood warnings to a wall while Atrahasis listened from behind a tent.
The parallels between Atrahasis and the Biblical Noah are unmistakable, yet the Sumerian version provides richer context about divine politics, the creation of humans, and the cosmic drama behind the flood. Scientific evidence supports the occurrence of significant flooding in Mesopotamia around 11,000-13,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age, suggesting these myths preserve cultural memories of real cataclysmic events that transformed ancient societies.
Most fascinating are the details absent from the Biblical account: how the gods actually needed humans for sustenance, how they limited human lifespan to just 120 years after the flood, and the suggestion that certain individuals like Noah/Atrahasis may have had unusual physical characteristics that set them apart. These elements hint at alternative interpretations through the ancient astronaut theory, where these "gods" might represent advanced beings with ability and knowledge that appeared divine to ancient peoples.
Whether viewed through a religious, historical, or alternative lens, these ancient flood myths offer profound insights into humanity's relationship with the divine and our understanding of catastrophic events that shaped civilization. Join us as we decode these remarkable stories that have endured for millennia, revealing the rich tapestry of human belief that lies beneath our most cherished religious narratives.
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Hello and thank you for joining us on Alien Talk Podcast.
Joe:This is the show where we discuss all things about aliens and UFOs and, as always, where we push the limits of our understanding about subjects that pertain to the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence, the presence of UFOs and perhaps even the very meaning of life here on our noble planet. We explore the mysteries of the cosmos and the enshrouded secrets of our ancient history, constantly pondering what is out there in the far reaches of space and asking questions about what our ancestors really encountered and all of the revered stories from the distant past. It's been a while since we've been with you, but the last time we were here on Alien Talk Podcast our previous episode we had the distinct honor of hosting Miles Spencer, the author of the book A Line in the Sand. We were able to get in a pretty in-depth discussion with him, in which we had descriptions and amazing insights into the geographic, cultural and historical landscapes of the Middle East, which, as we all know, is the land of the Bible and possibly the most fascinating region on Earth.
Laurie:Yeah, that was a really good discussion we had with him and it was very thorough and all-encompassing and we touched on a lot of things that we usually don't cover on this show, such as, you know, the covert military missions of T. E. Lawrence, the stories about World War I, the modern political climate of the Middle East and even about some of the food over there. So, it was a bit of a change of venue for us. I have to say that.
Joe:It was, and I found it quite enjoyable and hopefully all of you out there did as well. So, if you remember, almost two months ago now, before we had Miles on with us, we were talking about something known as the Enuma Elish, which is the Babylonian creation myth, which many scholars believe is derived from earlier Sumerian myth, the Sumerian civilization being succeeded by the Akkadian, Assyrian and Babylonian ones. It is considered by mainstream academia to be the first civilization on earth, even predating that of Egypt by almost a thousand years. That was brought up when we spent some time covering that debate between Billy Carson and Wes Huff, in which they got into a heated discussion about the biblical text and the other ancient sources. It was put on YouTube near the beginning of this year and this debate was lengthy and some might even say it was a little bit theatrical. And this debate was lengthy, and some might even say it was a little bit theatrical. It was between the prevailing viewpoints of typical denominational Christian apologetics and those of the ancient astronaut theory, Huff being a well-known Bible scholar and Carson an expert on the mythological traditions of the ancient world, the ancient Middle East and many aspects of the ancient alien hypothesis.
Joe:So, the Enuma Elish was mentioned in that, and the Enuma Elish to which it is alluded bears similarities to the Genesis creation story in the Judeo-Christian canon, with Genesis seeming to be like a shortened and more condensed version of the overall scenario portrayed in the Enuma Elish. Now there is another piece of mythology, also a Mesopotamian origin, called the Atrahasis, that tells of humanity's beginning and also presents a narrative about the flood, the flood, the great flood, the flood of Noah, the flood, the great flood, the flood of Noah. Like the Enuma Elish, the Atrahasis seems to exhibit the same literary devices that we find within the story structure of the book of Genesis. The theme is basically the same the gods create man and woman. They disobey the gods and are punished for it. Humans then become too much for the gods to tolerate, such that they regret making them in the first place. Then the gods decide that mankind should be drowned in a great big flood, and only a few righteous ones are permitted to survive and eventually repopulate the Earth.
Laurie:Right, and I'm excited about this Atrahasis. Just really, if you really pay attention to you, you'll really see the ancient avian connection in this group of texts. But, like the Enuma Elish, the Atraha sis was discovered from clay tablets with Akkadian cuneiform script that dated to around the same time period, which is around 668 to 627 B. C., and European explorers found it in the same forgotten library of Assurbanipal, among the ruins of ancient Assyrian, the city of Nineveh, which is modern day Iraq, and if you remember that, that city, Nineveh, which is modern-day Iraq, and if you remember that city, Nineveh, that's where Jonah had to go and he refused to go down there and he eventually got swallowed by a whale. But it is also believed to have originated around 19th to 18th century B. C. and it is the retelling of an even older Sumerian story that includes the gods Anu, Enlil, and Enki. Now, we've definitely heard of them before, of course. Zechariah Sitchin referenced it quite a bit in the Earth Chronicles series, as it depicts a turmoil amongst the gods, the Anunnaki, which is essential to the most elaborate or the more elaborate understanding of the ancient astronaut theory, and as he drew a very close parallel between the characteristics revealed of the Anunnaki gods with that of extraterrestrial beings. The Sumerian language was not like the other languages that came after it, so the knowledge from the oldest civilization on earth is preserved in the Akkadian script, the cuneiform. When that was discovered From there, it became evident that everything about the Sumerians was later passed on to another Semitic language, hebrew, from which we get the script for the Bible.
Laurie:Now, the Bible, of course, as we know, mentions early on that God sent the flood because he wanted man to be completely eradicated from the face of the earth. Why so? The simple theological answer is because God was sick of humans being so evil that he regretted creating them and intended to form a new world with a new covenant with the people on it. One of many covenants that we see were devised throughout Scripture. It plainly in Genesis 6: 5-7 that the Lord saw that the human beings on the earth were very wicked and that everything they thought about was evil. He was sorry he had made man and his heart was filled with pain. So, the Lord said I will destroy all human beings that I made on this earth, that I made on this earth.
Laurie:Now, on the other hand, the storyline within the Atra Asis provides a more dynamic background and explains that there was a lot more drama to it.
Laurie:And most of us know about the great flood from our religious upbringings, in which we learned about the story of Noah's Ark from the book of Genesis in chapters 5 through 9. And we're all very familiar with it. And the biblical account was, or has you know, water covering the entire planet, with dry land not being exposed for something like over a year, even exceeding the tallest mountains by 20 feet in depth. It rained like for 40 days and 40 nights, and, you know, after the fountains of the abyss and the floodgates of the firmament were open to cause the water to prevail for 150 days. So this gives the reader the impression that water was actually covering Mount Everest by 20 feet, and that seems highly unlikely. However, the story of the Great Flood in the distant past is found in nearly every religious tradition in one form or another, and not only that, but the gods played some part in it, in its cause and in humanity's eventual survival of it.
Joe:Right and this flood myth is supported by some degree of scientific evidence. That's not to say that every part of it is demonstrably true, you know, with Noah's Ark and the two of a kind of every animal getting onto it and the doves being released, and all that. But in terms of what has been discovered from geological, oceanographic and climatological studies, it could very well be that when the Bible, and the Quran for that matter, says that the whole world was flooded, that was referring to the entire known world of the people living in the ancient Middle East. It could be that there was at one time a massive deluge that hit the whole Tigris-Euphrates Valley like a big tsunami coming from the Persian Gulf, Tigris-Euphrates Valley, like a big tsunami coming from the Persian Gulf, and that would have been devastating to any urbanization and agriculture. Such an occurrence could have been preserved in the literary tradition of the Mesopotamian people in a way that suggests that the entire earth was indeed covered with water, when really it was much more localized, nonetheless significant enough to permanently alter ancient society and way of life, especially when you consider that most of the settlements and villages built by people in ancient times were close to water sources. I mean, look at the Tigris and Euphrates rivers that connect to the Persian Gulf, which in turn connects to the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean. So, this area of the Middle East was heavily populated with cities and farmlands and if you lived there at the time, you could easily refer to that as the world from your perspective. Anything beyond that would have been virtually unknown to most of those living there, but regardless, there is some evidence that shows there were substantial and sudden changes in ocean levels and these were found within rock strata that day to the time, close to the Pleistocene Ice Age, which was the last big one in geological history, and it was about 11,000 to 13,000 years ago. So, floods not a flood, but many floods could have happened when the Ice Age was ending from changes in global climate and a tilting of the Earth's axis and the shifting of its magnetic field.
Joe:The Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis has been put forth to suggest that there was a rapid fluctuation in the temperatures across the planet right after the last ice age of 11,000 to 13,000 years ago and that it was directly related to some cosmic event, possibly a meteorite, or possibly for some large celestial body passing closely by and causing a cataclysmic event, and actually paleontological studies of crystalline mineral celestial body passing closely by and causing a cataclysmic event, and actually paleontological studies of crystalline, mineral and rock formations have led to the speculation that there were many cataclysms throughout Earth's history. In Greenland they found a large crater underneath the ice sheet that was caused by a meteorite. They believe it was a meteorite impacting there, which could coincide with sudden climatic and hydrological changes near the end of the Cretaceous period. It's known as the Hiawatha Glacier... right. I think I remember that word being brought up here once before, but that dates to about 58 million years ago yeah and, I don't believe that the whole world was flooded like you're saying.
Laurie:Um, you know you agree with that it was just for that area localized. But I mean, I believe the world was, the earth was covered at one time at water, probably in in its early days, and I mean early days, like 4 billion years ago, when it possibly became a remnant of that large planet, Tiamat, which was a water planet. So that, I think, was when the whole world was covered in water. And then, of course, talking about the meteorites, the asteroid that struck the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico 66 million years ago is thought to have wiped out the dinosaurs and that brought about significant changes to the Earth's biosphere and the entire course of evolution. So, yeah, evidence shows that our planet is no stranger to cataclysms, and it is not hard to imagine that stories about them would become preserved in these oral traditions, which in turn would become passed down as teachings and then later still, you know, become instilled into people as religious doctrines. And it seems very probable, from what we know, this narrative of a great flood, that it would have ushered in a new era with different climates, starker land features and higher ocean levels and the Neolithic revolution in which the human race began to emerge from being hunter-gatherers into forming organized societies that used tools and technology. And according to Zechariah Sitchin, all of this is because a planet like Nibiru passed closely by us. This is what he postulated upon examining the text from the library of Nineveh. The text from the Library of Nineveh. So, with the Atrahasis the name is actually that of a main character in the story, and it means very wise one. And this is told from the perspectives of the gods Anu, enlil and Enki, and the roles that they play. And there are four main themes to it. First, you have the collaboration of gods, who introduced Mesopotamian agriculture, which would have been around the time of this Neolithic period. Second, a political struggle among them and Zacharias Sitchin speaks about that in the book called Wars of Gods and Men, which was resolved by creating the first human couple. And third, subsequent rapid reproduction of these humans. And fourth, the great flood that the gods intended to use as a means to eliminate them. So we can already see the similarities with the Bible. So consider the opening phrase and read just the first portion of Tablet 1. And then, joe, you can pick up from there.
Laurie:But when the gods, not men, performed the work, bore the burdens. The weight was too great, the work too taxing, a sore plight. So the seven great Anunnaki made the Agigi to take the lobe. The king was their father, Anu, their counselor of war was Elil, the chamberlain Nimrod and their canal manager, Ennugi, taking up the container, they cast lots. The gods divided up so that Anu took his home in the heavens to live in the sky, while Enlil went to make his abode among the men of earth and astute Enki acquired for himself the entire sea's creator.
Laurie:After Anu was in the sky and the absolute gods did the sin, then the heavenly Anunnaki made the Agigi take the land, or take the load that caused the gods to carve out the many water canals. They had to open up conduits, the sustenance of the level, I'm sorry, sustenance of the land. They caused the Agigi to carve out the many water canals. They had to open up conduits, the sustenance of the land. So the immortals carved out the channel of the river Tigris and the divinities carved out the channel of the Euphrates, boring a chamber at the lowest depths, sitting stians in the deep waters of the Abzu, beneath the covering of land. They placed braces within, situating these to raise its aloft, those which stand at the peaks underlying all mountains. And they kept track of every long year that they worked. The excess water drained down to fill up the great swamp, and they kept track of every long year that they worked and this was 3,600 years in which they carried the heavy loads. So that's amazing, pretty detailed.
Joe:Yeah, well, as you can see, there's much more detail than Genesis.
Laurie:Oh yeah.
Joe:And yes, Atrahasis is the name of the protagonist in the epic. He was a priest and the king of the city-state of Shurrupak. His name appears as one that is on the Sumerian king list and his reign is believed to have coincided with that of Hammurabi's great-grandson, ammis-aduqa, who ruled from 1646 to 1626 B. C. Who ruled from 1646 to 1626 B. C. And the name of the guy in the flood story.
Joe:It does vary from source to source, depending if it is Babylonian, akkadian or even Ugaritic, which is from the area of Lebanon. For instance, the Epic of Gilgamesh mentions this great king who survived, as Ut-Napashtim, meaning he has found life, and there's something else called the Eridu Genesis. He is called Zirasudra. It is also in the Sumerian king list and they're all pretty much interchangeable titles, really actually Akkadian titles for the same character, who is most likely also the same as that of the biblical Noah, whose name in Hebrew means rest. Anyway, a copy of this epic also exists in a later Assyrian dialect, which was also found in Ashurbanipal's library of Nineveh. Apparently, it is a difficult text to translate as it is pretty fragmentary. It is a difficult text to translate as it is pretty fragmentary. However, in the 1860s, british archaeologist George Smith assembled the fragments to write his work called the Chaldean Account of Genesis and then later, german historian Heinrich Zimmermann corrected the name in 1899 to Atrahasis.
Laurie:And in 1965, Welford G Lambert and Ellen Millard published the older Babylonian version, which dates to around 1650 B. C., and this particular copy is supposedly the most complete rendition of the tale that has survived. And the discovery of these new texts greatly expanded our understanding of this epic and it formed a foundation for Lambert and Millard's first English translation of the Atrahasis epic, which aimed to capture it in nearly its entirety.
Joe:Yeah, so much. Like the Enuma Elish, the Atrahasis narrates the creation of us human beings by the gods collectively known as the Anunnaki and the Agigi, and there's a hierarchy to them that can be likened to that of the one in Greek mythology, you know, where Zeus, like Enlil, reigns over the air, poseidon, like Enki, governs the ocean, and they are both the sons of Kronos. Just like Anu, enki can also be compared to Hades. Hades rules the underworld, or the great abyss. That description has also been given to Hades. Hades rules the underworld, or the great abyss.
Joe:That description has also been given of Enki, and the narrative delves into explaining the dawn of civilization, suggesting that early humans roamed Mesopotamia as free nomads, and then the Neolithic Revolution, which you mentioned, comes along, and from this point they also begin to master agriculture, and then they transition into a sedentary life, from a nomadic one, and then they transform the lands of what is called the fertile crescent into lush landscapes, perhaps reminiscent of how the garden of eden is described, and you know the detailed processes of that cultivation, as you just read from the Atrahasis. And then it unfolds with a conflict amongst some of the earliest Sumerian gods, also drawing from the Genesis parallel of the separation often referred to as the above and the below, showing a separation between heaven and earth, a distinction.
Joe:Enlil leads the council of gods who are associated with the upper heavens the higher realm, while Enki and his group called Igigi, are more closely aligned with the underworld, the lower realm where we're stuck at. And this mythological connection may be the root of why Enki is viewed by the character as a symbol of the serpent, and this might be conflated with the serpent in the Garden of Eden, thus leading to this common misconception that this serpent was Satan. Okay... remember that the serpent is never directly identified as Satan anywhere in the Bible. It's like saying he's Satan in disguise. That imagery came about much later with the systemization of Christian theological doctrine.
Laurie:Right. So, in the text there exists an organization of at least these three male factions of gods, each specializing in either thinkers or workers, which is akin to today's dreamers and realists. I guess the story shifts to the gods, the burdened with the most artist farm labor, who grow discontented and rebel against Enlil. Actually, and while it focuses on farming, the Sumerian account leans more towards mining and, with the aid of divine women, the Anunnaki goddesses, the uh, you know, the rebellious faction triumphs and orchestrates the creation of the first pair of humans who are meant to serve as laborers to mine gold and to cultivate the land. So, possibly echoing the farming narrative that is found in Genesis, which interestingly also mentions that the land was rich in gold and minerals, I'm going to read a portion of text to you again which shows the events leading up to the flood and how the Anunnaki taught humans how to irrigate the land. And this was not to help the Homo sapiens population at all. Instead it was so that they could farm. The humans could farm and produce food for the gods. So this is from Timothy J Stephanie's work on the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation myth. It also includes the Atraasis, the first great flood myth. So here it is from Tablet 1, pages 72 and 73.
Laurie:So Elil showed them the way to smelt iron and to work steel, and they took up the metal implements from the ash pile, producing new picks and shades to dig long channels, to provide food and please the gods. And the water fed the land well. Food became abundant. People harvested their fields of grain, they made bread and ate. They performed many sacrifices for the first time. So they prepared a flower offering to the gods, their patrons, and they prepared a food offering to the gods, their patrons. And they prepared a present offering to the gods.
Laurie:It says, to smoke, disperse and offer incense offerings to the gods. Then it reads in addition to this, they made their daily sacrifices to the gods, and the gods enjoyed their offerings and were contented. But man gathered going about their business in the towns. They ate their bread and drank their beer and had offspring, and their numbers became increasingly greater by far. Now. This supposedly continued for approximately 600 years. And then Enlil became annoyed by human noise, by saying and a noise which is made by man has become too great for me. All of this clamor and clatter has kept me from my sleep. Therefore, command an outbreak of the shivering disease.
Joe:Right. So, as the story goes along, we see that the gods, particularly Enlil, is looking at people as being kind of like a pestilence. First he wants to eliminate humanity with a pandemic, but it doesn't work. Enki warned Atrahasis about how to help the people not get sick, and of course this irritated Enlil. So, another 1,200 years goes by and in the next idea Enlil comes up with his famine, and that doesn't work very well either. Again, enki tips off Atrahasis and gives humanity survival tips.
Joe:Fast forward another 1,200 years and now Enlil becomes aware of a pending cataclysm that will cause them all to be drowned in a massive flood. At this time Enlil makes Enki, as well as all the Anunnaki, swear no's not to help the humans figure out a way to survive. So Enki's oath not to tell anyone, particularly Atrahasis, that puts him in a bind. Enki looked very not to tell anyone, particularly Atrahasis, that puts him in a bind. Enki looked very favorably toward humanity, especially Atrahasis, and did not want to see any of it eradicated in the way that Enlil did. Yet he took his oath seriously, swearing them on his life.
Joe:But he was able to work out his own loophole in this oath by telling Atrahasis to wait inside of a tent, while Enki would go stand outside of it.
Joe:So the two of them were separated by sight with a veil or a tarp of the tent, with Enki on the opposite side and Atrahasis on the inside, so he would speak out, uh, and he would start to speak out to no one in particular, um, saying hey, there's a massive flood that is coming, you know, wipe out all living creatures. He spoke aloud that someone should prepare yourself the in your house and build a ship and spurn all your possessions so to save your life, the ship should be cube-shaped and it should be waterproof. He's just saying this to no one in particular, but he's saying it loud enough so that Atrahasis can hear it from within the tent. Now, there's no mention of taking in animals and it doesn't give the impression that this ship was to be all too big, as there are no dimensions of it given, like how we see in Genesis 6: 14-1 6 so, as you can see, inky was very deceptive and smart.
Laurie:Intelligent because he knew that if they asked him, did you tell anybody. Well, no, I didn't tell no one. Which?
Joe:echEes to the description of the serpent in the garden of Eden that he was the craftiest and the most clever of all the creatures in the garden, and that does describe Enki as the craftiest and most clever of all the Anunnaki Yep.
Laurie:Now, this is reminiscent of what is found in the Book of Enoch, where, in chapter 10, verses 1 through 6, god sends the angel Uriel to warn Noah about the flood and then puts blame on the angels for the evil things that they taught mankind. So you know so we have three different causes here.
Laurie:First is noise of the humans, of course. In the Bible, it's the sin of mankind. In the books of Enoch, it's the sins of the angels. So it's also important to note that Enoch depicts the appearance of Noah in a very strange way, and he is said to glow like the sun, to have hair as white as snow and very bright blue eyes and very bright blue eyes. Oddly enough, recent genetic studies on people's eye color show that blue eyes are caused by a mutation that occurred about I believe it was 30,000 years ago. According to the website by Luna DNA, dated back in 2018, I think it was up to about 10,000 years ago, or probably up to 30,000, I don't know for sure, but humans had all I guess they had brown eyes, or the primates, I guess and it's believed that a mutation occurred sometime about just 10,000 years ago in the OCA2 gene, which is mainly the gene responsible for eye color, and that it can be traced to first appearing in the area of the Caucasus Mountains near the Black Sea, just due north of Mesopotamia. So, could this mutation be a result of what was identified as the mating between angels who would be extraterrestrials, of course and humans? So are we products of that? Are we hybrids?
Laurie:And after all, the text goes on to say that one of the behaviors that angered Enlil was this interbreeding between Anunnaki and humans. It's almost like that Thor movie. Where was it Jane Thor's love interest? She goes to Asgard and then she wakes up on this table and I think Odin comes out and he's like what is this? She's like a goat. What is this goat doing in my house? So that's how Enlil viewed humans like animals, because we are from the primate. And if that is so, then could Enoch be implying that Noah or Azra Asis was somehow a demigod?
Joe:Right. Well, we find out as the epic goes along. God wants to do away with the wickedness of the earth altogether, which resulted from the intermarriage of the sons of God with the daughters of men, which brought about the Nephilim, the giants. This ties in with Genesis 6 and also ties in with Enoch, where God is again saying he is grieved with the offspring of this intercourse. This is a displeasure to him. He's angry with this, he wants to wipe it out, the corruption. And this ties in with what we're saying with Atrahasis, where we again see this idea, with the god being enraged, in this case Enlil. He's enraged with the intercourse between Anunnaki and humans and again wants to wipe everything out because of it. So we see this theme pop up again in a much older tradition of going into the Sumerian mythology.
Joe:Remember, these gods, according to Sitchin, were actually none other than alien beings who were just very advanced in their knowledge of geology and celestial mechanics. They knew full well that there's going to be a close passage of a planet and it was going to result in pretty bad things happening here. This deluge seems to have something to do with a large ice sheet breaking off in Antarctica. The Anunnaki knew this was going to happen, mainly Enlil. They knew this was going to happen when their planet according to Sitchin is Nibiru came near to Earth in one of its passes and the gravitational strain was going to dislodge a huge glacier, a massive glacier from the continent of Antarctica and thus make the ocean levels rise very quickly. Of course, the aliens, who Sitchin conflates with Anunnaki, had the advantage of being able to evacuate the earth in order to avoid themselves being killed by it, since they knew well ahead of time that it was going to happen and had the technology to leave the earth earth well in low, saying in a few places that humans weren't meant to last forever.
Laurie:So, yeah, we served our purpose for them and that was it. But some of them did care. Um, some of them were moral and righteous and didn't want to see the human race wiped out, like Enki, I guess. And, on the other hand, even the more ethical Anunnaki seemed to believe that we needed our numbers to be greatly reduced and be given a new start. And, as the story shows, the post-Diluvial Earth was different than before. But it was not the first time it had changed, and the Anunnaki knew that, and they would have had an understanding that, compared to what we possessed at the time, would have made them godlike.
Laurie:Not only were humanity's numbers greatly decimated in this flood, but it also seems likely that Atlantis, if it existed as a technological advanced colony on our planet, was also eradicated because of it. So, as you can see, noah is Atraasis, aka Hupnapistim, and Ziusudra, and that is, and that it is not the sin of man that you know that made the gods wipe civilization out. It was our piskiness, our noisiness, you know. You can also compare the flood offerings to the sacrifices in the book of Leviticus that I was talking about earlier. You know, before even reading the Atra Asis I wrote about that, these sacrifices as nothing more than food preparations and offerings for the gods in the book, that is, to send the biblical first contact.
Joe:Yeah, and I think this noisiness is a noun that corresponds to something akin to debauchery, drunkenness, rowdiness, you know basic wickedness. But the point is the same as in the scriptures, with people becoming very upsetting to the Lord. As in the scriptures, with people becoming very upsetting to the Lord and it didn't, and because of someone that being Atrahasis or whoever survived it, we see mankind after this now is elevated in esteem. The Atrahasis has Anu and Enlil now almost amazed at humans. They are actually now glorifying the human race, saying you know, they're worthy of continuing to exist on Earth because they actually survived all these attempts for us to wipe them out. They must be okay.
Joe:And also said that will help them survive, although the Mesopotamian story does have them limiting the age of humans to 120 years. So they will help them, but they don't want them living forever either. And this sounds remarkably similar to Noah's story in Genesis 8-21. God has taken a remorseful tone, saying that in his heart he will never again curse the earth for man's sake. And he also says yeah, people, you're not going to live forever, 120 years and you're tapping out yeah, yeah, that's uh, that's what they took from us to say.
Laurie:That's a comparison with uh in the garden of eat, in the garden of eden. You know, we, we became knowledgeable and knew right from wrong, to develop the conscious, but then we were kicked out because we couldn't have immortality, we couldn't eat of the tree of life. And so, according to the Old Testament, at first we had these hundreds and hundreds of years that some of the patriarchs lived and their sons and daughters. And here we are now, but we're blessed, I guess, if we make it to 70. But there's also another good comparison here.
Laurie:When, you know, the gods looked down on humans and thought, well, they're glorifying the human race because of what happened. But in the Atra Asimis it actually describes this as again going back to the offerings and the food. Remember, when Noah came out of the ark, he made an offering to the Lord and the Bible says and it was a good-smelling savor or good aroma to the Lord. Well, that's this. That's this. Atra Asis explains this. As the gods were hungry because they were up circling around the earth during this flood and they were running out of food. They were starving around the earth during this flood and they're running out of food. They were starving. So when they came down, humans, noah and his family, whatever prepared these sacrifices, which are none other than meal preparations, and they were so thankful for the humans for doing that.
Laurie:But if this flood did indeed occur at the end of the last ice age, around 13,000 BC, then it was most likely after this that people were taught such things as the agriculture and husbandry and then, not long after, they began to start civilization all over again. So the planet Nibiru makes a couple more passes, such as around 11,000 BC and then again around 7,500 BC, with the Anunnaki then assisting mankind in the domestication of animals and the construction of buildings. 3800 BC, the Sumerian civilization is found to be in full bloom now and man had learned to teach mathematics, astronomy, chemistry and writing, among other things. And after this, mesopotamian mythology has the Anunnaki dividing the earth into regions, with Enki and his descendants given rule over Africa and Enlila's descendants given rule over Eurasia. And this sounds very close to what is in the Bible, with the regions of earth being divided up by Noah's three sons, shem, ham and Japheth.
Joe:Yeah, and just to make note on the lifespans of people in the Anunnaki in the Sumerian king list, it gives the period of time of the reign that these kings had as being in the tens of thousands of years. Their lifespans were tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of years. So the idea of waiting 1,200 years for the next go-round or 600 years for the next go-round to make an attempt to do something was nothing to them. And of course Ab Atrahasis is one of these kings on that list. His lifespan would have been in the tens of thousands that we must assume, as all the other individuals on that Sumerian king list were mentioned as having these reigns that were 22,000, 17,000 years. So this idea of shortening the lifespan to 120, that was really confounding, to sort of the comparison of making these humans anything like God. That showed you aren't even going to be close. Your lifespan is going to be miniscule compared to ours and that's echoed also in the book of Genesis.
Joe:So this whole flood narrative, really it's important to consider the later theological constructs that developed from it through the hermeneutics and it became incorporated into the Christian canon. You know water is used to symbolize the cleansing of sin and return to the original state of perfection, kind of like in the Garden of Eden. And that's also a way to be manifested in the ritual of baptism Water cleans, water purifies, and there's also the meaning of divine wrath found in the teachings of the flood, as well as divine mercy and redemption. So that's all brought into the sort of elements of this story and the parallel found between the earth being rid of wickedness and evil ways through the submersion of water. The old world is gone and a new one comes forth from it. Just as it's taught through our hermeneutics that water submersion removes the old self of sin and is done away with and a new self comes out, cleansed. And this is one of the first rituals found in Christianity. Actually it's based on the idea of life being renewed, a person being renewed. Just as with the flood, all created life on earth was renewed. And this is implied in the words of Jesus when he tells the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4, 7 through 14, that he is the living water. The one who drinks it will become a springing well to eternal life.
Joe:So there's a deeper, more figurative and more spiritual theme that has been applied in this scriptural use of water. That goes all the way back to the story of the flood. Perhaps you can say it's an esoteric use. Religious thinkers from all over have studied and meditated upon the story of the deluge, but it's also been realized in the literal telling of it, of the cataclysm itself, and for the most part it is always told the same way among all of the world's religions A deity who is really angry with humanity, and in so much so he tries to wipe it out and allows a few people and animals to survive, but in the end, uh, humanity is purified by those people who do manage to survive in some special way right and um.
Laurie:what you need to pick up here is is what is stated in the Bible verses that I previously read that God was sorry for creating humans and that his heart was filled with pain. Okay, folks, now this is what we mean by the characteristics of the biblical God, just not matching with our indoctrinated worldview of him that we have today. So this and what we read from Atreus, this all indicates that he made a mistake and that he has feelings, or they have feelings and a heart that feels pain. So he, god, has what you might call buyer's remorse. So how much clearer can you be on this God or these gods being organic flesh and blood? We've said many times in our episodes that we see this throughout the Bible and other religious texts too. The gods are indeed extraterrestrial in that they are not of this world. Yes, in that way they are not like us, but they are creatures, physical creatures with material bodies, not spirits or ghosts, and in that way they are like us.
Joe:Yeah, and like us, being as organic beings with flesh and blood, as you say, they are not infallible or impeccable or omnipotent. They may be more advanced than us by far, but they are not God. Just think of them as such. And the occurrence of the flood was predicted by them, not initiated by them. It was due to their tremendous knowledge, technical knowledge, that they could foresee what was about to happen that there was going to be an increase in tidal friction compounded with the instability of the Antarctic ice sheets. And this is a recount of the story of Noah and the construction of his ark, but it's a lot more elaborated.
Joe:The Enuma Elish and the Book of Enoch they both give much more detail that I've always thought we were at a disadvantage for not being taught more in Bible studies about this. This was kind of always kind of, you know, obscured and hidden from us. As you know, this is not included in the canon and we find in the verses you know, like when Noah was born he looked completely different from most babies and that he was as white as snow, his face shone as brightly as the sun and he could speak to the Lord with righteousness. And we find this also in a pseudoepicological manuscript called the Book of Noah, referenced in seven chapters of Enoch. It's also called the Book of Jubilees, but other than that it's non-existent. It's an apocryphal writings that, you know, we're not really taught unless we go and research it ourselves. But they are found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were dated to the second and first centuries BC. So really, until the Dead Sea Scrolls came to light, the pseudo-epigraphal manuscripts were virtually unknown to everybody.
Laurie:Correct. And now, in Genesis, noah is the son of Lamech, and he's also the great son of Enoch. His name is said to mean comfort. So it says that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, or in the eyes of Yahweh, as it's supposedly read, that he was a just and perfect man and that he walked with God. That's about all that is given concerning him. However, in Enoch 105, more is revealed about his origin.
Laurie:Lamech is fearful at the sight of Noah and goes to his father, methuselah, to say that he has begotten a strange son who is not human. That's interesting, but instead he resembles an angel, just like I said earlier. So Methuselah in turn seeks the counsel of his father, enoch, who tells him that the infant will survive a great destruction and he, along with his three sons. He also assures Methuselah, and in turn Lamech, that Noah is indeed a child that belongs to him. So you know, we do have to believe that there was indeed a flood, at least some kind of flood, and that it was a pretty big one at that, but also one that it didn't likely cover the whole planet, like we talked about, but certainly did cover large areas of where people were living. Now let's go back to the Enoch 10.2.3, where God orders Uriel to go down and meet with Noah in attempt to warn him about this. You know coming delusion. Instruct him on how to prepare for it.
Joe:Right and it parallels pretty much the Genesis telling of preparation with an ark and to get himself and his family into it and thus save himself. Not much in terms of getting the animals onto the Ark. It vaguely hints at trying to save some other creatures. It's kind of odd that the Hebrew writers decided to be that detailed about the Ark itself and not so much about Noah and his beginning. Here, when he's born, he glows like the sun and his hair is as white as snow. They seem to be focused more on the dimensions and numerology involved with describing the Ark. The numerology had a lot to do with important in Jewish theology in terms of showing connection with the divine and also covenant with the divine, which is what the ark is. It's much like the ark of the covenant, showing a connection with God, what this was in Genesis and perhaps why the Hebrew scribes spent that time kind of painstakingly detailing the building of the ark more than like Enoch does and certainly more than the Atrahasis does, where it just says, yeah, build a ship that's a cube shape like a square boat.
Joe:But you know there is plenty of evidence to be studied to show that the earth and its climate have transformed quite a bit through its 4.5 billion year history Long periods of warming, followed by long periods of cooling, and there have been five known ice ages, and then subsequent periods of warming and the melting of those ice ages, and then again more warming periods. Warming and the melting of those ice ages, and then again more warming periods. So it's in this macro cycle that scientists attribute to plate tectonics and solar activity orbital factors of the Earth. But it seems like this particular deluge had endured in our cultural memories more so than any other cataclysm that occurred on Earth. This definitely puts us on the brink of extinction. The story of the flood Even if you believe that more than eight people survived it, it probably took a lot of lives back then. We have no idea of knowing exactly how many. Just going by the biblical narrative, it was only eight.
Laurie:Yeah, so far we have the three different stories about it Atrahasis, the book of Genesis and the book of Enoch. So how do we know which one is correct? I mean, I guess it should be the original one, I guess the Sumerian story, that would be the one that was first recorded and therefore less likely to be a myth. Enoch and Genesis would then be considered or condensed, would be condensed and paraphrased versions based on the Babylonian account, which in turn was passed down from the Sumerian account.
Joe:Yeah, and since around 1830, there have been several theories put forth to reconcile the elements of the flood narratives and the creation narrative as well with the current discoveries in the natural sciences, and they've been coined different names like flood, geology, scientific creationism, young earth, intelligent design, theistic evolution, young earth, intelligent design, theistic evolution. But they often run into the problem that they are less with semantics and more with the structuralism, and we see this in how the biblical writers communicated and understood the concepts of cosmology. They were inaccurate. The epistemological models prevalent in the ancient Hebrews and it talks about this throughout the scripture that there existed a firmament above the earth and an abyss below it and that water surrounded everything. So this idea of a spherical earth didn't seem to come around until later on, you know time, of Greek thinkers like Euclid, Aristoteles and Ptolemy, and I've actually seen some diagrams that are kind of interesting. They illustrate this idea of flat terra upheld by pillars that have fountains going down to the waters below in the abyss, which eventually connect to the oceans, and then you have the sky over the ground and oceans, with the sun, moon and planets and stars moving in this dome in which everything is encapsulated. So everything's kind of beyond the firmament where there's water. So it's a strange kind of thing to try to visualize that there's this big old dome of water up in the sky and above. That is where the sun and the moon and the stars are all at, and it has floodgates, or what they call windows of heaven holding these waters above, and sometimes referred to as the expanse, and likewise below the ground, but above is an abyss called Sheol or Hades, and that's the abode of the dead. So this whole universe is sort of inside what would be like look like a snow shaker globe.
Joe:And when we read about the fountains and the floodgates opening and dumping water everywhere, we have to know that somehow misconstrued and misunderstood process of nature. But it was something else was happening to bring all that water out of the sky and then out of the ground. But it was believed back then, uh, that it was from the firmament and the abyss. That's the belief that persisted. And actually it wasn't until about 65 years ago that the Vatican had formally acknowledged that there actually was no such thing as a firmament or an abyss and that the mention of it in Genesis is fully it really is allegorical truths. No-transcript.
Laurie:Yeah, correct, it's the ancient mind trying to describe how this all happened. Because they weren't outside the planet, they haven't discovered these things. So, yeah, we are not flat earthers at all. We definitely believe that the Earth is spherical, but they didn't know at the time. But with all of our technology and advancements, we know that for a fact. But what's interesting to know is that the Bible mentions that God had not allowed it to rain on the earth up until the start of the flood, and it said that a mist would a vapor that once covered the earth. So I believe that before the flood came, this vapor was thick enough to block out much of the sun's rays. Again, maybe not the entire planet, but certain regions, possibly, obviously in the ones where the Bible stories are told. So, after the tilting of the Earth and the shifting of the poles caused by the gravitational pull of a large body, that could either be when the moon was put in place, as the Zulu shaman also stated, dragged there by two god brothers, and then the earth tilted and turned on its side because the moon was hollowed out and dragged across the solar system and placed there, or it could be Nibiru, like we said earlier, coming in close proximity. Anyway, this all started new weather patterns, including rain. So the vapor and mist had dissipated and the sun's rays were now able to fully penetrate the atmosphere, causing a new phenomenon. You guessed it that's the rainbow. And this wasn't some great miracle or a promise by God at all. This is what happens when sunlight is refracted through the raindrops to cause the optical spectrum to be seen in what we know as the rainbow. So this was not seen in the atmosphere, at least not very often in the times before the flood.
Laurie:That Genesis is most likely a shortened rendition of both the Enumelish creation myth, the Atrahasis flood myth and other Sumerian tales preserved in the Akkadian script. And we shouldn't take the biblical story as accurate at face value. And not only do you have the highest mountains completely submerged, which would be impossible, you also have only Noah and his family who were saved, plus a male and female of each species that made it onto the ark, which would also be impossible. And just as inconceivable is the idea that all of the world is going to be replenished with human and animal life in this way. And one more thing to note about that is remember the story of Joshua going into the land of Canaan when they sent the spies. The spies saw that there were giants living in Canaan. So how could there be giants if the whole flood had destroyed everything on it except for Noah and his family?
Joe:A few Nephilim survived. The flood is what it's suggesting and I think most you know theologians accept that in Genesis' allegory, that it is a symbol. So you know, the elements of the story would tell a scriptural truth, more so than a literal, factual telling of what happened at some point in Earth's history. I mean, don't forget plant life. You said that all human life and animal life would be destroyed in this way, according to the narrative. But if there was a deluge of this magnitude it would kill tremendous amounts of trees and grass and bushes. Even aquatic vegetation wouldn't survive the changes in salinity, temperature, clarity there's, nutrient concentration, water, light penetration. Fish wouldn't survive either, for the same reasons that I'm mentioning. So too much of the ecosystem would have been altered and we don't find any evidence of that from the fossil records, not from the time that we're talking of, between 11,000 to 13,000 years ago, when we believe that this deluge would have occurred. Nor do we find conclusive evidence of the remains of Noah's Ark or Atrahasis' Ark being on Mount Ararat or anywhere else, even though there have been many claims that it's there and has been seen and has been touched.
Joe:Regardless of that, it's never been conclusively shown that that has been found, but this whole argument about the literal interpretation of the flood account has been around for quite a while and is one that many people still hold on, even now, right, so, uh, we'll wrap it up there, as there are more ancient texts that we would like to discuss in the upcoming future and that also come from the ancient world, and another one that we would like to get into is the epic of Gilgamesh world, and another one that we would like to get into is the epic of Gilgamesh, and we most likely will do that on our next show.
Joe:However, there are some other plans that are floating around right now that Lori and I have that may change up the line, the lineup of shows. If that's the case, we'll let you know. What are we posting on our Facebook page, and we might be able to bring on another guest with us for discussion on a completely different topic, but, as of now, we're looking forward to the next episode being about the epic of Gilgamesh. Either way, we'll be back with you at the end of June or beginning of July.
Laurie:Yeah, and as always, folks, you know, please leave us a comment on the episodes we put together. And also don't forget to visit us on our YouTube channel and, you know, hit subscribe and like that really helps us out. Check out our website, alien talk podcast dot com. And, you know, there you can see the links for our books and and you can listen to the episodes there if you want as well, and see some of the guests' bios and our bio of you know. So.
Joe:Yeah, and we should also mention that our last episode with Miles Spencer is now on YouTube, if you want to give it a watch. So thank you all for your support and, as always, stay curious.
