Ep. 53 Denny Heiberg - Becoming Disciples of Jesus

In this episode, Denny Heiberg shares about his journey from running an institution to becoming a disciple maker that empowers others to become disciple makers. We talk about what it looks like to make Jesus Lord of everything in our life. We also discuss what it's like to disciple grandchildren.

Denny Heiberg is an elder in the Florida Conference of the United Methodist Church where he pastored Grace at Fort Clarke UMC in Gainesville, FL from 1994-2012. He currently serves with TMS Global as a member of their Ministry CoServe Group focusing upon Discipleship Training and Member Care. Denny also serves on The National Leadership Team as the Director of International Representatives with The Bonhoeffer Project, a discipleship initiative that trains leaders in the global Church to become disciple-making leaders. Denny graduated from Columbia International University with a BA in Biblical Studies and Christian Education. He also earned an MA in Biblical Studies, an M. Div., and a D.Min. from Asbury Seminary. Denny and his wife, Cindy, live in the Nashville, TN area where he serves in their local church developing disciples. His passion is mobilizing the next generations of leaders who will develop disciple-making cultures in their context of ministry.

Denny's Recommendations:
Undistracted by Bob Goff
A Better Way: Make Disciples Wherever Life Happens by Dale Losch

This episode was sponsored by:
All Nations Kansas City
The mX Platform

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.

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Transcript

Joshua Johnson: 0:58

Hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. I'm your host Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com To interact or donate. If you're enjoying the show, please go to Apple podcasts and leave a rating and review and share this podcast with your friends and network. It will help us get more listeners to the show. So thank you. Previous guests on the show have included Brian Russell, Alex Absalom, and JT Thomas. But today's guest is Denny Heiberg. Denny is an elder in the Florida Conference of The United Methodist Church, where he pastored Grace at Fort Clarke UMC in Gainesville, Florida for many years. He currently serves with TMS global and discipleship training and Medicare. He he is also on the national leadership team with the Bonhoeffer project, a discipleship initiative that trains leaders in the global church to become disciple making leaders. We have a fantastic conversation around building the discipleship culture, and making disciples as grandparents and much more. So enjoy the show. This episode is brought to you by all nations Kansas City. Have you ever felt holy discontent that 1/3 of the world doesn't know Jesus, that the church as we know it won't reach all peoples on earth? And that is hard to find ways to use your gifts for the kingdom of God? Well, you're not alone. We feel it too. With 30 years of experience igniting movements to Jesus around the world committed to following the lead of the Holy Spirit. All nations has gifted trainers and coaches with time in the trenches. Do you want to make disciples in hard places? Do you want to join a like minded community? Are you tired of compromising for the status quo, then join us on the leading edge. Go to all nations.us. To learn more, and to sign up for summer see px see PX or church planting experience is a three week immersion in Kansas City that will equip you to ignite church planting movements among the neglected peoples of the earth. Join us June 5 through the 25th. This podcast is done in association with the MX platform. And 100 M publishing. The MX platform is a space for any disciple to be resourced and equipped to release movement within your context. So whether you lead your family, a small group or micro church, or you're a planter or pastor, you could find tools, resources and training to help release potential within yourself and context. 100 m publishing publishes books by authors and thought leaders with new insight about movement, DNA, discipleship, leadership and movement dynamics. To learn more about these books, and to check out the resources and training available, visit the MX platform.com. Danny, it's exciting to have you on the podcast. Thanks for coming. Thanks for saying yes to this.

Denny Heiberg: 3:55

It's an honor to be with you, Joshua. It's been a long time, buddy.

Joshua Johnson: 3:58

Yeah, it has. It has and you know, we were able, we were able to as you were pastoring. Down in Gainesville, Florida, you were able to partner with us as we were reaching Syrian refugees in the Middle East. And so yeah, the way that your church stepped up and was able to partner with us actually enabled a lot of fruit of disciplemaking among amongst Muslims, and things that you we probably wouldn't have been able to see if it wasn't for that partnership with our church. And so thank you for stepping up and saying yes to the leading of God, of where he was leading you. So thank you so much.

Denny Heiberg: 4:43

You bet we received a great deal from from our partnership, for sure. Yes,

Joshua Johnson: 4:48

yeah. It's good. You know, as I was looking over your bio, one of the things that that stood out to me is that you're you're really passionate about mobilizing the next generation to create disciple making cultures in their contexts. How did you get to that place to say, this is what I want to do?

Denny Heiberg: 5:10

Well, as in many cases, Joshua, it came out of me I say it desperation. As you know, I was I was at the church for quite a while. And in my 13th year, all of a sudden, I had this awakening that I was running. I didn't intend to, but I was running. I was a CEO of running a religious organization. But I wasn't making disciples and now, some of my dear brothers and sisters there would say Well, no, no, you were but I wasn't, you know, you can't, you can't completely make disciples from a distance, you have to, you have to live with them, you know, you have to spend time with them do life with them. And so I was losing the joy in my life, because I truly didn't sign up for that. I wanted to develop people, especially men and their families. And so it just the joy was draining, and I couldn't hide it, especially from my spouse, my wife. And so, one evening, as I came into the bedroom, and got under the covers, I heard this voice beside me. And she said to me, and this is after, you know, I've tried to give you the context, she knew that I was wrestling with issues, and she says, Does anything bring you joy anymore? And so I did the the manly thing, and I didn't even look at her. And I reached up and turn off the light went sleep. I didn't respond, because I knew that she knew the answer. And I knew the answer. And so out of that discontent, and eventually, desperation. I was, I was in traffic one day. Now I know, it's all relative, you have traffic there in KC compared to what we did in case, Phil, but I wasn't moving. And this thought came to me as I was reflecting on a class that I was going to be leading for the church, just one of the elective classes that we had on a Wednesday night. And the thought came to be men only. And I thought, well, I didn't hear a voice. But it was this deep impression. I couldn't shake it. And so it was a class on simply how to study the Bible. And I love that because I love getting down in the trenches with people and helping them. Yeah, because you don't get a sermon on how to study the Bible, how to read the Bible, how to apply it. So I thought, okay, and so I limited it to just men. And that first Wednesday night, among the other classes, I had about 18 guys walk into the room, I closed the door, and I stood in front of them. And I said, Guys, I'm honored that you're here. I know, you could be doing other things on a Wednesday night. And I've got a I've got a plan for us. But I need to know. Why did you come? Yeah. And as soon as the question mark left my lips, this gentleman off to my right. said, I've been told that I'm supposed to be the spiritual leader of my family. And then all of a sudden, he took his his study Bible, it was thick. I mean, you could you could beat somebody over the head with this thing. He picked it up. And he said, but I feel like, my wife is so far ahead of me. And he reached out and reached out with a Bible. And he said, but I'm holding her back. And he drew back to his chest. And I thought, Lord have mercy. This wouldn't happen on a Sunday morning. Yeah. And so as soon as he said that, another guy across the room said, I'm right there with your brother. And all of a sudden the kingdom appeared in the room. And all these guys started saying, How do I apply this thing in my life and share it with my, with my children in my, how do I apply this stuff to my job? When I think my, my boss is asking me to do things that are unethical. So out of that class, I ended up with 21 guys who said yes to me. When I said at the I said, Listen, guys, you got I taught them basically, how to do lesson plans, how to how to, you know, read the Bible, inductively and apply it but also to do lesson plans for their family or a youth group or a men's group or whatever. So I said, you know, I want to go home and be with my wife on a Wednesday night occasionally. So we're done. But here's what I'll do with you. I will spend 60 to 90 minutes with you every week, one on one, one on two, or one on three, and I'll meet you anywhere you want to meet. And I figured five or six guys would would say yes. And please, if you're listening to this, do not do this. But I was desperate. And I figured just a few guys would do it because I still have my full responsibilities as a pastor, and I ended up with 21. Guys. Wow. And that that shows you how hungry they were, how thirsty they were to spend time in the scriptures and with somebody who cared. And so I jettisoned a lot of my other responsibilities to my associate pastor. And away we went, and I had 12 To 15 point appointments a week. Wow. And the rest is history and I I knew that that's what I was made for. I enjoyed the teaching and preaching, don't get me wrong, but doing life with those guys. And I don't mean just over a Bible in a cup of coffee. I mean, we got together as well, you know. But that's, that was the start of it. And from there, we invited this this class that I'd never heard of before. It's called perspectives. Yeah. And it absolutely ruined my attention for my life. And so, after two and a half years of discipling, those guys and going to I don't know how many prospective classes in our church and in our community, we I resigned and stepped, stepped away from that position, and began working with leaders, cross cultural leaders in a mission sending organization and training them to become disciple makers, because the reality is just because you, most of our most of our people came out of the, the church here in the West, in the church, and the West was not preparing them to be disciple makers. And so why would we send them overseas to not to do something that they weren't doing here? So that's how we kind of got into it.

Joshua Johnson: 12:08

Yeah, that's good is as you you walk through that, and they walk through a transition of going into cross cultural work in started to help cross cultural workers and people in a cross cultural setting, make disciples? What was that transition like for you? And what did you learn in the midst of it as the difference between your own culture and different cultures and disciplemaking,

Denny Heiberg: 12:32

what stands out the most Joshua is that the organization that I'm with, then my wife is with me in this we help train people together. But that you go as a humble learner. And, and unfortunately, many Westerners Go, go around the globe. And they, because they have a blue passport from the United States of America, they already draw attention. And I will never forget, we were doing some training and in, in Bangkok. And at the end of the week, this precious woman came up to me. And she looked, she was much shorter than me. And she looked up at me. And she said, when I first saw you walk in the room, and now again, that was about six days earlier. I thought you were another Eret, arrogant American. And I thought, wow, for her, for her to say that was a big step for her. And then she paid me a very high compliment. Because those who have gone before us, unfortunately, in certain situations, have not been a good representative of a follower of Jesus and a humble learner. So that was that was something that was very helpful. And I would say what was common, though, was everywhere that I've went in the last 10 years, it'll be 10 years this summer. We found the same, the same issues regarding the gospel. That or that is here in the West. Yeah. The understanding that primarily that you can, you can become a Christian without following Jesus. And we have we have trumpet in that kind of a gospel so clearly that it was in every culture that I that I set foot in.

Joshua Johnson: 14:42

That's sad. That's really sad. So as you're walking with people, how do we get back to this place where it actually means we're following Jesus were back to the place of I am a follower of Christ. Not just a Christian.

Denny Heiberg: 15:01

Yeah, well, it's interesting, isn't it that the word Christian is, is used a whopping three times in the New Testament and, you know, the first first couple of times, it wasn't a term that was attractive, but the word disciple, either as a noun or a verb is used 295 times and so hello. The problem is that we we've separated the whole salvation experience into two halves. You can you can become a Christian, and by saying a prayer, raising your hand however you that happen As you or if you really want to step up your game, as we would say, you can be a disciple. And so we have this two tiered system and we've got the the crux of it is you have to go back to the Gospel. And the reality is that there are probably within our Western culture, Joshua, at least five, what I would call incomplete or toxic, toxic gospels that have contaminated the the kingdom gospel that Jesus came to deliver. And and it's, it's, it's affected, as I said, cross culturally the people that we've come into contact with so how do we get back to it? We have to start with the gospel. Yeah. And and really take a look at it. What was the gospel that Jesus proclaimed? And what did his disciples proclaim? And not just not just take for granted what we're being told from a pulpit or a book, but go to the Bible? Yeah. And investigate it. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 16:51

Can you can you describe some of these false gospels and and contrast that with what the gospel of the kingdom is?

Denny Heiberg: 16:59

Yeah, the dominant one, if you could, you could sum up all of them in a term that my mentor Bill Hall uses, he calls it the gospel, Americana. But the most dominant one is the forgiveness only gospel, which is I said, just basically declares that all you have to do is be forgiven. Acknowledge that, and you're good to go. And is Dallas Willard said many times that that has become, he called it the barcode gospel, that, you know, when you raise your hand, you get a barcode. And then every time you walk into church, you you know, you get scanned, and you're okay, because it's on the outside, you did your deal. But if you and I were to walk into a grocery store, a convenience store and intake, let's say we were just getting a bottle of water. So we'll go to the gas station, get gas go in, grab a bottle of water, they scan it, it shows on the monitor exactly what it is. And the price, right? Yeah. But if that bottle was was either polluted with some other liquid, or even empty, would say the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. So the problem is that that is become the dominant gospel that I can get just enough blood from Jesus, he also calls it vampire Christianity, you know, just enough to cover to cover my sins, but not enough to go full in all one with Jesus. So that's one of them. Another one is the consumer gospel. And I confess to you, as I look back on my, my experience as a pastor, oh, did that creep into my messages? Because I wanted to meet people where they were, yeah. But they became consumers of goods, goods and services of our church. And if there was a better opportunity for their kids or for themselves down the street, by yeah, that's that. But we live in that kind of a culture. The prosperity gospel is another one. And quite frankly, I, I began to follow Jesus in 1974. And that's right when where I was living in Florida, the prosperity gospel was really coming into its, its highlight, and I, unfortunately, I cut my teeth on that. And but something just didn't make sense. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And so that those are the big three, there's also the, you know, the gospel of deconstruction and detachment from the, the, the spiritual aspect of the Bible. Some people would call that liberalism. Yeah. You know, and then the gospel, that you can call it a number of things, but it's, we're right. You know, we've, we've got it down. And as long as you come to our church, you'll be sure you get into heaven. So if you look at all those, there is some truth to them, but they're incomplete and they have this toxic, this toxic doctrine in it, that has has fogged up the rest of it. That is that is appropriate. So you, we need to go back to the kingdom gospel. And I'll tell you something funny that happened to me. I was in my last year of seminary now this is after four years of Bible College and four years of seminary, three girls and I'm, I'm awaiting my, what we would call in my my tribe, my appointment to go to a church because we're sent and so I was looking at my bookshelf one One evening and I looked at my shelf and I had about four books on the kingdom of God. And I thought Heiberg. You can't even communicate the definition of the kingdom of God. And you're eight years into this thing. Wow, you bought all these books. So fast forward a couple of nights I'm laying on my back with with my Beginners Bible for my three girls got two of them on one side, one on the other. And I've got it over my head, and I'm reading this, this, this Bible, you may you may have got this one for Luke. It's got the watercolor characters with with ping pong balls for eyes. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 21:25

it's a cheese Bible. Yeah.

Denny Heiberg: 21:28

And so anyway, they were talking about the section I was reading that night was the parables of the kingdom. And it says, this is, it was about the tiny seed in a big tree. Yeah. And here's what it said. It said, many people come to hear Jesus's stories. Jesus told stories about God's kingdom. And then I stopped when I when I read these words, God's Kingdom is wherever God is King. And I stalled. And I get this elbow from one of them saying, Come on, Dad, come on, get. And I thought to myself, if I would have read this, yeah. I wouldn't had to buy all those books. I might have saved some time. But seriously, God's Kingdom is wherever Jesus is King in that, in that situation, in that in that attitude in that conversation in that act, wherever his nature and character are being displayed or revealed. That's his kingdom. And you know, you can I mean, Dallas, Willard has some, some nice, nice definitions of that, you know, the, the range of God's effective will or wherever it's wherever Jesus wants done is done. Yep. You know, but I had to, I had to, I must have missed that day when they covered it in seminary. But not many people understand the kingdom of God, Josh? Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 23:04

Yeah. And that was from the very beginning, Jesus announced the kingdom like that. That's what he talked about the Kingdom of God, the kingdom is he sending out his disciples and Luke 10, he says, Go set, eat with people heal the sick and proclaim the good news of the kingdom, you the kingdom of God is near. So we have to figure out what is this kingdom of God, like if we because that's the good news, the kingdom of God. And so, as we're entering it, I think one of the things is you said, you know, that forgiveness gospel that we had, you know, a big transition in my life that actually got me focused on Arab Muslims is when I transitioned my life from Jesus as Savior, or I was forgiven to Jesus as Lord, right. There's a now this lordship of Jesus, I want to follow Christ in all of my life. And he started to work in my heart for air Muslims. And that's when, six months later I met Meredith, on eHarmony. And she said, I want to live in the Middle East, if you're not up for that, we don't even have to talk. And, and the rest is history as we continue to pursue that. But it was that lordship of Jesus and saying, okay, Jesus, you are king, and I want to follow you. And that was really where my life changed. It wasn't the Savior Jesus, which is a beautiful thing. And it's very true, right? It is. It is definitely true. But it was incomplete. There was so that Lordship, what, what are some things as you're walking with men, and you're walking with people in this discipleship culture? How can we integrate Jesus as King, the kingdom of God into all of our life?

Denny Heiberg: 24:55

Yeah, that's, that's a great question. And, you know, as, as you were talking, Jesus came proclaiming the gospel of God. And that the first thing and the beautiful part of mark one is that mark not only tells us that he was proclaiming the gospel of God, but He gives us the recipe, he tells us, he copied down exactly what he said. And so he starts off with the kingdom of God and Mark, as you know, in the very beginning of that, of that Gospel account, this is the beginning of the of the gospel of God. Jesus the Christ. Yeah. And so, you know, before I before I began attempting to follow Jesus, I was not raised in a Christian home and so I I know you're gonna laugh, but I'm not the only one. I thought Christ was his last name. I mean, I spent two summers working construction, I know that I knew it was his last name from the guys that the guys that worked around me, so but when I began to realize that Christ was his title, that it meant God's anointed his that his anointed king, that that opened up a whole new realm for me. And then the reality that, and I don't know about if you've ever thought of this, if you could live at any particular time during the Bible that we have the record of what time would that be, but I would, my goal is this one, I would love to, to be alive in witness the 40 days from the resurrection to the ascension, and just soak up what he had to say, because you know, you get to, you get to x one. And in verse three, it says that, when he appeared to His disciples, all he spoke about are the only thing that Luke records is the kingdom of God. And then you turn to the very last verse of the Bible, or the book of Acts, and what do you find? That's what Paul's teaching about? And so, it's so dominant, but we just, we don't hear much about it. Yeah. And so how do we how do we weave it in to life? I think what I did with our guys is I took them through the book of John. And we used it as a roadmap. Yeah. So that we could grasp who Jesus truly is and what He expects of us. I mean, he is our he is our model. Yeah. His it's not just his message, we believe, but we believe he's our model, on how to live out our lives. So one of the interesting things too, is that this about this whole kingdom thing, and why did why do we do it? Why did why do we even bother making such a big deal out of it? Well, Jesus talked about the kingdom 107 times in the Gospel accounts. And Paul uses a term that you're familiar with, it's called an icon. Now most of us know what an icon is. It's an image. But he uses that term three times to describe believers to describe followers of Jesus. And the only other time that that particular word is used, is describing Jesus as the father's icon. He's the visible image. So you and I are visible images of Jesus, where Jesus was the visible image of the Father.

Joshua Johnson: 28:27

Yeah. That's, that's beautiful, where you are the the true embodiment of Jesus on earth, exactly as the body of Christ. And, you know, we have created a distorted image of Jesus, that we don't have this. We don't reflect Jesus in His fullness. But we can do that together. In community, one another, we need the body, we can't just do it on our own. So what is that? What is the discipleship culture for you disciple making culture as a communal culture, one to another in community, so that we could actually reflect Jesus more fully?

Denny Heiberg: 29:13

Well, the first thing that comes to mind, Joshua, is that you and I, whoever is going to attempt this, we can't do it apart from him, obviously, in that whole chapter 15. And John, you know, it says that, you have to abide in me. And the good news is, we're not the one that produces the fruit. We bear it, we have the privilege of bearing that fruit displaying that fruit is giving, giving visible proof of that, of that fruit, but we don't produce it. So that takes a lot of the pressure off, at least in my mind. But the it has to be done in community. And let me give you an example. My wife and I just moved from Florida to to just above Nashville, Tennessee, four years ago. And we were the first house that was built on the street that we live on now. And I said to her after having some seven years in this mission, sending organization and learning what it really means to be a cross cultural worker going as a learner and listening. I said, Honey, here's the deal, we get to set that the welcome culture on this street. I mean, nobody else is here. So the first people that get here besides us, we get to set it just as if we were sent to the Middle East.

Joshua Johnson: 30:44

Ya know,

Denny Heiberg: 30:45

so we we put together a welcome basket, found out when the, when the next tenants were going to close on their house. And we, we had put on their counter with a little card and just said, we're thrilled that you're here, et cetera, et cetera. So we we tried to do that to as many as we could. And then Lord willing, in fact, it began to some other people picked up that and did it for there, there are others. But I believe, I believe that hospitality is one of the best ways to embody the character of Jesus in our culture today, because people just don't, they don't want, they don't want to hear you. They want to, they want to feel like somebody really cares. Yeah. And so we've tried to do that. And hospitality is my wife's number one gift, and I'm hanging on. But, but seriously, we love it. We love having people over and, you know, COVID, just, just about melted us. We were we were, we were drying up, brother, we were drying up.

Joshua Johnson: 31:56

It's, it's really difficult. You know, when you're trying to set this hospitality culture, you have COVID, you're not able to have people in your home. I mean, that's, it's really what the kingdom is about, like you're talking about the table, you're talking about people sitting around, eating together, and conversing about the kingdom, walking with people and their hurts and their struggles. You know, as we're, as you're, we're setting this type of, of culture, one of the things that we're going to have to do is be very patient with others. So to walk them through, and sit with people in their in their struggles. These people are most people, as you found out, probably do a ministry that were traumatized by something like there's yes, there's a lot of trauma in our lives that are not dealt with, that holds us back from seeing Jesus at work in our lives and following him. So as we create this hospitality culture, and we bring people in that are our broken, just like all of us, and that is seeking wholeness and Jesus, how do we, how do we sit with people and walk people through to this place of bringing them to Jesus? What does that look like?

Denny Heiberg: 33:23

For again, I'll go back to our neighborhood for us. It was everything from me mowing somebody else's yard. And we're not talking about acres here. We're talking about postage stamps for yards. But the point was, I wanted to show that, that I that I cared, you know, and so if they were away, I would mow their yard if if there was ice and snow on people's driveway, and I'm from Florida for crying out loud. I didn't have a shovel. But, but I would, I would, I would get a shovel. And we have some we have some neighbors across the street, a very young couple newlyweds from from South Asia. And I have been to the country or to the state of this country in South Asia. And so they were thrilled to know that I had been there and that I enjoyed their food, obviously. But they weren't they didn't expect I don't think an American to come over and literally dig through the the three inches of ice that were in their driveway. And I even got a neighbor to help me. He offered to help me and so it's it's it's acts like that of kindness that speak much louder. In fact, this the young lady had some relatives at our house last week. And she wanted to borrow our kids little wagon because she had I guess, some nephews or something there. And she just thanked us again for how much our relationship had meant to her. So I love your word patient. Yeah. Man when I left Bible college, it it you had to seal the deal. Yeah, right. Exactly. But but I have learned over time, that this is a you know, the long obedience in the same direction is is as Eugene would say, and you just you can't put it on your timetable. So it's trying to be it. You want to be authentic and in turn Try to take in an interest in in something they're interested in. I don't know how many houses that my wife has been at helping other women in their front yards. And their spouses for that matter, helping with their gardens. She she's got a green arm for crying out loud, you know. And so that is a great bridge. I mean, you just you just try to listen to what the Lord is saying in the midst of all these opportunities, and we take it you know, we swing and miss more times and we then we hit it square but But brother, I, at this stage of the game, and you know, I didn't come in there as the pastor I came in there as a neighbor. That was cool.

Joshua Johnson: 36:30

Yeah. That nice is spending that much time as a pastor now you can just come as a neighbor does not feel good.

Denny Heiberg: 36:38

Oh, brother, I'm telling you, because that was marked before. But But here, there are still people, some of them do know that I have been a pastor and kind of what I do now because I you know, we were leaving occasionally to go on the road, but, but a number of them don't. And that's okay.

Joshua Johnson: 36:58

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. You know, as you're, you have five grandchildren now. Is that right? Yes. Six, six and under. As you you've looked back on your life now, as you you have grandchildren, I know that a lot of grandparents have, say, you know, once they have grandchildren, there's, there's a lot that you can learn. And a lot of beautiful things that happen with with grandchildren. What have you learned as you've started to really disciple your grandchildren? And so walk with them in their life? Is there any any thing that you've learned in those that setting?

Denny Heiberg: 37:43

Have you sat down with Luke with a set of Legos lately? Yeah, yeah. You can learn a lot. I don't. You know, I was hoping that somehow we could get to this. But I've got news for you. And I'll be I'll be transparent. I don't have a reason not to with you. I have regrets of the amount of time that I spent away from our three precious girls, because I was going through Bible College and Seminary and pastoring. Now they've told me they don't you know, they didn't feel robbed, but I was robbed. Right, you know, and so now, fortunately, 332 or three of them are in our house. Three days a week. For Nana school. Yeah. So Cindy takes it seriously. It's an extended or I should say never ending VBS and Montessori School combined. But there, you're exactly right, Joshua, you can learn so much. And quite frankly, our culture in America does not value. The the the ministry, the investment of grandparents, yeah. I'm ready. In fact, you can laugh at this, but I'm reading. I'm reading a couple books on what is it? How do we grandparent as followers of Jesus? How should that be different than people that don't follow Jesus? Well, it should be we should not only be following what Deuteronomy tells us, but also what the Psalmist tells us about the value of investing in these kids. And so you caught me at an interesting time in my journey, because I'm, I'm wrestling with, with, with moving forward in more in my relationship with my grandchildren and saying no to some other things. Because the reality is I only have them in our home for a brief time. Yeah. And I don't I don't want to miss it. I need to teach them how to how to switch hit. Yeah, and they can't learn that from reading a book. I gotta get out in the yard with a tee. Yeah. And the bat. So I would if there are any grandparents that happen to be listening to this. Oh, I pray that that you would take very, very seriously the the impact that you have on these kids. And and I don't want to miss it. So yeah, thanks for asking about that. We are We are so fortunate to have those precious children in our lives and to be that close.

Joshua Johnson: 40:27

Yeah. You know, it's, you know, we have you know, Meredith, mother, Mitzi lives with us. She has her own little apartment and in her basement and so she gets to, to be with Luke a lot. And we're so thankful that she's there but that, I mean, man, that relationship, just watching Luke and then watching Luke with my parents like just to see that, that love that's, that's there and then they what I love about that is that not only with you know my wife and I but with the grandparents, he's secure, he knows that he's loved. Somebody came up to me the other day, and he was at this party and and he said to so how are you doing discipling your your son. And so I just Luke was was at the end of the table, and I just just shouted over to him. I was like Luke, do you feel loved? And he's like, yes, of course I feel loved. And I was like, See, there you go. That's how I'm doing. Like that's as, as I want him to walk in love. And we secure in that. A lot of the other things, you know, it falls into places, you know. So that's, that's the thing that I've found with, you know, with Luke being around his grandparents as well is that that secure feeling that I I am known. I am loved. I'm cared for. It's it's a big, big thing. It's huge.

Denny Heiberg: 41:59

Well, we had Cindy's parents live with us as well. Joshua, my father in law was there for three years before he passed away. And then 10 years for for Cindy's mother, and our daughters were enriched by them. And as I look at the privilege that I have, now, I am really taken seriously. Being more intentional. I mean, they're in the house, and I'm in my office, and I'm thinking I need to be out there with the Legos or in the backyard with the with the ball on the tee to show them how to switch it. But you're building, you're building relationships, and you're letting them know that you love them. Yeah, yeah. I love this phrase that my my favorite one of the four year old boy says he says you're the best. Where did he pick that up? He picked it up from his mom and dad. Yeah. And we echo it. You're no, you're the best.

Joshua Johnson: 43:00

That's beautiful. That's fun. Well, Danny has been really good. So the couple of questions that I have at the end. One is that I asked if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Denny Heiberg: 43:15

Well, the backstory is I began my journey at 19 and three quarters. So I would say, you ain't seen nothing yet, buddy. Because I've only been in about a year at that point a little bit over a year. I did not grow up in a Christian home. And so this was all new to me it 20. So if I were to speak to my 21 year old self, I would say listen, there's going to be a lot of noise. But you need to you need to listen closely to Jesus. And and to spend time with him. And I probably wouldn't, I would have said, well, of course what else? But that's, that's it. I met Brennan Manning manning a number of years ago when he was speaking at my daughter's college and I went back I thought, I'll never get this chance again. Yeah. But I went back and I said, I explained that I was pastoring, et cetera, et cetera. And I said, what what do you recommend? He just says, spend more time with Jesus. Okay, so that's what I'd say. I'd say, you know, listen closely. Again, there's a lot of so called Christian teaching. Some of its rich, some of it's not. And I would say, focus on Jesus. Listen to him, and follow him closely. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 44:45

it's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend.

Denny Heiberg: 44:49

Well, you caught me at an interesting time. I've spent six days away by myself and I have laughed. I've needed this quite frankly, I needed some space. So he doesn't need my mind endorsement. But I've just got through reading, just undistracted by Bob golf. Yeah. And, and you need a little bob in your life now again, but I would say for probably the audience that you have. And I have dozens and dozens discipleship books. One I came across from a mission agency that's been out for 10 years is called a better way. Make disciples wherever life happens. And I have found it, it's in it's got a number of authors in it. I think it's edited by Dale Losch. But it is Say, fantastic book. Because remember, you know, Jesus didn't call those guys on the hillside of Galilee, who were all pastors, right? Yeah, they were blue, blue collared workers etc. And so unless unless everybody understands that they are expected because of the discipleship gospel, it's a part of our salvation in Christ. It's expected of us unless they can do it wherever life happens. I love it. He talks about the 1040 window. You're familiar with that? And I'm familiar with that. And I'm sure most of your listeners are, but he talks about the nine to five window. And I when I read it, I thought 925 Oh, it's the nine to five window. And he's he's nailed it. I mean, if we're if we're not intentional about building bridges where we work, we missed it.

Joshua Johnson: 46:44

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's really good. That was great. Well, Danny, it was this a privilege to talk to you walk walking with you into this discipleship culture, figuring out what is the gospel of the kingdom and what does it look like to to start to love our grandchildren? Well, so that they can go come up and say yes to Jesus, follow Him and walk with him throughout their day as to so he go generation to generation. So that's beautiful. So thank you, Danny. I really enjoyed it.

Denny Heiberg: 47:18

It's my privilege. Thanks so much for having