Ep. 69 Jamie Winship - Living into Your True Identity

In this episode Jamie Winship shares from his years of experience working with people around the world. He shares how we can exchange the lies brought on by fear, guilt, and shame for your true identity - bringing you to a place where you can hear from God directly about who you truly are.

Jamie Winship has decades of experience bringing peaceful solutions to some of the world’s highest conflict areas. After a distinguished career in law enforcement in the metro Washington DC area, Jamie earned an MA in English and developed a unique process of identity transformation that is the key to resolving inner conflict and acquiring new levels of learning and creativity. His unconventional efforts to bring about societal and racial reconciliation led him to Indonesia, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Israel, and back to the US. Jamie has worked with leaders in professional sports, business, education, law enforcement, government, non-profit and other sectors. Jamie and his wife, Donna, are co-founders of Identity Exchange and its corporate arm, Identity Method, providing training and consulting on the power of living fearlessly in your true identity. Jamie's new book, Living Fearless, will is available wherever books and ebooks are sold. For more information and resources visit us at identityexchange.com and follow @identityexchange.

Jamie's Book:
Living Fearless

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Joshua Johnson: 0:57

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com To interact or donate. Don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to get notified when new episodes come out. And if you're enjoying the show, let your friends and your network know about it. Thank you so much. Previous guests on the show have included Meredith Johnson, David garrison and Brian Heasley. But today's guest is Jamie Winship. Jamie has decades of experience bringing peaceful solutions to some of the world's highest conflict areas. Jamie and his wife Donna are cofounders of identity exchange, providing training and consulting on the Power of Living fearlessly in your true identity. Jamie's new book is called Living fearless. I read it, I love it. And you need to read it to Jamie and I have a powerful conversation around exchanging the lies brought on by fear, guilt and shame for your true identity, bringing you to a place where you'd hear from God directly about who you are. Enjoy the conversation. Here is Jamie. Jamie, welcome to the podcasts. I'm excited to have you on.

Jamie Winship: 2:13

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Joshua Johnson: 2:14

So yeah, I'd love to just hear how did you find your identity as militant Peacemaker?

Jamie Winship: 2:21

Oh, wow, it's interesting. And even, it's even actually progressed more than that, even actually, I carry my identity written down in my wallet. And that's actually was from somebody that I was working with a group and they at the end of it, they on identity. And at the end, they said that you're a Milton peacemaker, but you're really an untire have nots. And but so the way that happened was I was working, working overseas and in in a Muslim context. And I was working with this guy that was a real legend, to me, a real, someone I wanted to mentor me, finally got the opportunity to work with him. And he was just observing me, work with these folks. And he pulled me aside and he said, you know, he said, I don't think you understand you're who you really are. Is me. And, you know, of course I was offended. Because at that point, I've been through the police department, I've been, you know, interviewed by the State Department, been to grad school been overseas for six years. So all of this in my all this life experience. And here's this guy senior to me saying I don't think you understand who you are. And I and I challenged him on it. And he said, No, I know you don't know who you are, because you're imitating me. And he said, we don't we don't you're imitating other people is not of any value to us. Because because we don't know what to do if you because we don't know who you are. And if you can't tell us who you are, how will we know? So we understand who you are, and be able to tell us who you are. And then that way we can it'll help us know how to engage you. Yeah. So they sent me to another guy. And I went and met with that guy. And he just walked me through this process, real simple process of listening, listening and asking questions and listening for two things. What What's the false things I believe about myself that I believe are true, that's good. Let those go. And then asking what what do you call me? What what is my true identity? And those were the words that came into my mind pretty directly. Wow. And as soon as I heard of, and this is true, and everyone was just doing this yesterday with a professional coach in the NFL, and he is as soon as the person hears it and says, you know, Milton, peacemaker, or whatever. I always say to him, does that make sense to you? Is that something you've actually already known for a long time? Just think about it. And it does, it resonates with the human as something that's been there, all along in some form or fashion?

Joshua Johnson: 5:11

Yeah. And it's really important to figure out what is your true identity, who God calls you? The way that He has made you. I mean, I remember when we when I first met my wife, we were deciding whether to get together deciding or are we supposed to journey in this life together? And one of the things I'll just say this because it was revolved around you a little bit. My wife, my wife said, I don't know if if Joshua could be as dynamic as Jamie Winship because my wife wanted to reach Muslims. She wanted to work with Muslims, and so did I at that moment. And so she was trying to figure out my identity of who I am and how I relate to her and her identity as she's starting to work. And so I'm very thankful that she let me become who I am and my true identity, and I didn't have to put on a false identity, something else and imitate someone else or something else. Because I wouldn't have been as successful, I wouldn't have been able to walk in the shoes that I have been able to walk in, because I would be trying to live out something that is not me. So it's really important. So what does it look like to go from false identity, and trying to imitate others into a true identity?

Jamie Winship: 6:45

Yeah, well, I sent you, it's interesting to you, that's great. That's a great example that you gave there. You know, first of all, first of all, you can't be another person. So event, imitate another person is kind of a waste of time, because that identity is unique to that person, and you're never going to be it and so, but it is kind of how our culture works. It's like fine, like and trying to be like them. And it's like, we talked about it like being a cover band, you don't want to be a cover band your whole life, right? You want to European voice and develop your own style. And that's, that's what the true identity is. So just the main thing about leaving the false is the false identity creates fear, it creates conflict, because it's not true. And so and so when you have, in most, what most people believe about themselves in the false has something to do with I'm not enough at whatever level it is, it ends up being really these basic kind of lies that humans believe about themselves. And it's all through Scripture, when, especially when people are being challenged by God or into a calling, they start explaining their false identity. Isaiah does it you know, when he's in the vision of the temple and Isaiah six, he's like, I am a man of unclean lips like that he's speaking out the identity that he believes about himself. Or Peter, when he sees the miracle of fish, he says, Depart from me for I am a sinful man. Or Moses, you know, the I'm not I'm slow speech and Gideon, I'm the least of the tribe, it's the the human, the human instinct is to, is to view themselves as less than who they are. Because of really the lie that we grow up in and move out of the false is just to move away from that fear, guilt and shame that accuses us of things like ultimately, you're stuck and alone. Everything in your life depends on you, and you're not good enough to do it, those basic lies, and out of those come the identities, I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough. All of those things that just prevent us from operating in the truth of who we really are.

Joshua Johnson: 9:02

So can you tell me a maybe a practical story or somebody who has saying, okay, fear has prevented me, from entering into my identity, I have believed the lies my whole life because of fear. And then how did that transform into a place of true identity?

Jamie Winship: 9:22

While so I remember, remember that being informs doing so. And the scripture says As a man thinketh in his heart, so he is right. So being armed is doing we think that doing informs being we think what we do proves who we are, but it's really it's actually doing as the said, just demonstrates what you think about yourself, right? We know them by their fruit Jesus said, we don't have to listen to you talk a lot, we can just tell by what do what your sense of being is. So So when I'm when I'm, I mean, I do this almost every single day with people and so yesterday, I was just meeting with people. And and I, I don't have to know the person I can just we just do this very quickly because I'm human, and they're human. So I know how I think about things probably the way they do. Very beautiful. It's very simple, whether they're Muslim, or Hindu or whatever. So we had a group of 380 Middle schoolers in a room and we divided them into groups and we did them over two days. And I would just explain false identity to him like name, we believe about ourselves that are false that hurt us. And then we I would just say, Okay, I want you just to sit for a few minutes and I want you to think about names you believe about yourself. That hurt you. You or that or that produce fear in you. And then they would, and they, and they would just immediately start writing things down. They knew they. So when I'm with, you know, when I'm with a professional athlete or some work, I'm working with a, the C suite of a company, you know, the CFO and all those, they I do the exact same thing with them. What are names just think reflect and you have to just truth tell, that's the challenge is to say the things and they and they just write them down. And the kids were writing things down. Like I'm not smart, I'm not good at math. I'm ugly, just those basic things. And then and then we do this exercise of imagine that you're with absolute unconditional love, because we're in a public school. Unconditional Love is with you. And what is that? How do you view unconditional love? And a lot of them? Most of them? They got? Yeah, Jesus, okay, give that false identity to Jesus, what is God or Jesus do with it? And then they talk about he took it and he threw it away, and he burned it and all that. And then we give them a piece of paper and say, Okay, let's ask love, what love calls you. And just listen. And 380 middle schoolers can all hear that voice. And they all start writing down what God says about him What Love says about and and then they, they either read them out loud, or we just collect them. And it's incredible what they say. I mean, it and when they say something I say do you ever say that about yourself? No. That's how other than them it is. Right? They wrote down what they say about themselves. Now they're asking God, what do you say about me? And it's, it's worth it. It's it's things like you are I am loved. I am beautiful. I am proud of you. Especially the boys wrote a lot down about I'm proud of you, you're you're, you're cool. You're accepted. So already in seventh and eighth grade, they have body image issues, and they think something's wrong with how they walk around in life already. Wow. And so so. But so then when we go and do that with a group of special forces people, which we did, we spent a weekend working with active duty Special Forces people see exact same thing. So very high achievers and in their vocation. But wow, do they have a lot of things they believe about themselves that hurt them. And so what, so what happens is when they move into that sense of wow, I'm loved, I'm respected than it a lot, the way that they act, the way that they live, their doing is pretty dramatically affected by. And so these kids, we even had a kid that was about to be expelled. And we we went and worked with him by himself. And it was dramatic. This was last year, and he's already finished. He just finished ninth grade and eighth grade, they were ready to expel him. He was finished all of ninth grade. Fantastic, fantastic kid. But it was all because of how he viewed himself

Joshua Johnson: 14:02

as beautiful. I love that process to be able to do that. And it works with anybody. And anywhere. So for you when you were had this long career as policemen that you went overseas, you were overseas for six years, and then you've started to discover your true identity. What was that difference between entering and and working within the culture and the people around you? Before you found that? And then after you found that, yeah, so

Jamie Winship: 14:32

yeah, so it was so in the police department, of course, in the police department, I had a sense of, I wanted to I didn't want to just lock people up, right? I didn't want to be measured by the number of people that I incurred, saw incarcerated or convicted. What I wanted to do is to bring to serve and protect the police work, you have serve and protect philosophy. And then you have the law enforcement philosophy. Yeah. And they're very different mentalities. So I had to serve and protect mentality. But it wasn't until Yeah, I got overseas and in the first, you know, five years of being overseas working in the Muslim population. I would I was, if you can understand this. I was talking to Muslims, not like they were people, but like, they were a different religion. They weren't humans. They were they were like, probably less than human if I really told the truth, because they weren't Christians. And so if I can get them to switch from the religious system of Islam into the religious system of Christianity, suddenly you know, everything would be a okay and we'd all love each other and and They resisted it like crazy. And I got arrested and put on trial, you know this, because because everything I was doing with them was creating conflict. And I was basically saying to them, however you view yourself or whatever you've come up with about yourself is false. And I'm here to correct it. So it's creating conflict and separation. And as Jesus said to the, to the Jews, he said to the Pharisees, you're you're converting Gentiles to Judaism and making them twice the sons of Satan than you are. It's a pretty harsh rebuke, because it's just getting them to change the name of their team, from this team to this team. So once I understood identity, I realized the the conflict in my own heart is not about religious systems or belief structures. It's about who I am. It's about the depth of who I am, as a human being created, knit together in my mother's womb by God. And as I would pray through it, and I would say, Lord, what do you call me? He never called me a Christian. He never called me a Republican or a Democrat or evangelical progressive, none of those words, those are all human team names, and their names that create division, as soon as you say them, they create division. Yeah. Right. And so once I understood why the Lord is calling me, you know, militant peacemaker, he's calling calling me son, he's calling me beloved, he's saying he's proud of me. So what what when I'm talking to a person who was you know, who's grown up in a Muslim culture with Muslim parents and all of that and grown up in Islam? What would Jesus want to talk to this person about? Yeah, would want to talk to him about who they really are? So how would he do that? He would, he would probably speak directly to them, you know. And so we realized, wow, let's be John the Baptist. And instead of saying, come talk to me, we would say we want you to come, we want to introduce you into the to the one behind us who's greater than us. And we will remove as many obstacles as we can to get you to sit and listen to Christ speak to you about who you are. Once we started doing that, it was dramatically different. Yeah. And so so as well, I'd say you can't give away what you don't have. So you don't have your own sense of identity and your own capacity to hear from God. All you're going to give to another person is information. Information doesn't bring transformation. Revelation brings transformation. It's them, it's us, helping them walk through their fear into a posture of let's listen to God speak to you. And then let and this is really what introducing them to Christ really is not interested in introducing them to all our information about Christ. It's introducing them to Christ Himself, who will speak to you right now. Our challenge was, we didn't believe that ourselves. Right? He didn't believe God would talk even to us. It's all been all dependent on us to convince them and all that and all that sort of thing. So it'd be just, it just went from being this kind of difficult, frustrating, arguing apologetics and polemics thing into this very beautiful, do you want to hear from the one who made you? The one who knows you better than anyone else? And to listen to what he calls you? Yeah. And that was transformative to people. And so that we, so, you know, we were overseas for 27 years. Wow. So in all those different scenarios, we realized that if we're going to work with Uighur Muslims in China, and then go to Algeria and work and then Moroccans in France, like we it was all the same process with all of them. We didn't happen to like have special strategy for the different people groups.

Joshua Johnson: 19:52

Hmm. So what does that look like for anybody who's working? Say, Let's go with cross cultural workers. So anybody who's working in cross culturally, so if you're thinking that specialized strategy is is actually not as effective as these principles of identity, how do we then enter into different cultures in a way where people could still understand and we can start to to walk with them towards God?

Jamie Winship: 20:23

Right. So it's so and I had some Muslims say this to me one time, they said, stop talking to us like we're unbelievers. They know they know that, that we're looking down on them as if we know something that they don't know. And they said the Muslims said to me, we are we believe in things we don't believe in everything you believe in, but we're not I'm believers, and we're lost people and all these categories you have for us. And what the thing is, I'm not talking to them, like their unit, I'm talking to them. Like there's some group. There's some category and categorizing Greek means to accuse. Wow, choosing now something. So instead talk to them like they're a human being who doesn't know who they are. And so they're getting their identity from what they have what they do and what people think about, right? They're getting their identity from these external places. And that's and this is what they've come up with so far as the way to get through life. So we're so all I'm saying I just give you an example. So the other day we were, we were overseas, and I was talking to a PhD, an astrophysicist he was an astrophysicist, PhD, Hindu, and Indian, Hindu. And um, and so we were talking together and I said, Can I Can you? Can I just walk you through a process we do called unburdening. And he said, Okay, and so I said, this is a process where we're just going to talk about what is we're most afraid of in our life currently. And then we're going to imagine, we're going to imagine in our mind would end the imagination part is for him, I kept saying, we're going to move into our intuitive mind. And we're gonna move from the rational into the intuitive where all creation and invention and innovation actually occurs. And intuitive mind, he's like, I get it. Yeah, that he gets. That's very Einstein. The intuitive mind is the master the rational mind is the servant. He goes, I get it. So I said, let's move into the intuitive mind. And I'm gonna teach you a process. Using your prefrontal cortex of unburdening the things that you're afraid of in your life. Do you want to? Would you like to experiment with that? He said, I would love to. So I just walk him through this process. What's your greatest burden? It's very detailed processes. What's your greatest burden? Now? I don't I've never met this guy before. Yeah, I know who he is. And he knows who I am. I mean, you know, from the introduction, and what's your greatest burden? He tells me what it is, where do you feel it in your body? He says, I feel it in my neck and my shoulders all the time, I'm always tense. What's it costing you to carry the burden, he said, it's costing me clarity in my research. This is the reality of what happens to a person who who lives in a pretty constant state of anxiety, your body knows it, your body knows it all the time it can feel it. And you're, it's you're paying a price to try and carry the anxiety around all the time. So he was like, Yeah, this is absolutely factual. I this 100% I get this I said, Okay, so I want you to imagine that the burden whatever it was, it was for him it was like a sense of powerlessness. Like he's like he's in situations, there's nothing he can do to correct or change the some faculty position or something. And I said, okay, so imagine you're holding that burden in your hand. And you can give it to absolute unconditional love. However, you see that in your mind, whatever the metaphor is in your and so his metaphor was some sense of God. And I said, okay, so but imagine that the God is right there with you and you can hand that burden to do it. Like just do it work through it in your mind. And so he can, he said, It's like chains like chains around my hands. And he goes a hand into love and love unshackled me. Right? So this is very people I say, is what you know, is what you're doing Christian. I said, No, it's not Christian is biblical. The imagery that we always end up in is very bibble. I can open the Bible every time and shown right where that metaphor and that imagery is, every, whoever I'm doing this with. And so I get it there. It's take love is taking, it's unshackling. Me it's taking away the chains, and what is love doing what the change, it's casting them away, casting them off. And so I said, Okay, now, love, love never takes without giving back asked love what love wants you to know or to give to you. And he asked, he asked love, what do you have to say to me and love says to him, You are not powerless. You are loved. And it just wiped him out. And then he says to me, he goes, I want to tell you what's going on in my family and in the history of my family. And he goes back all these generations of darkness in his family and victimization by evil. And he said but But love is standing you're telling me this is not true. And there's a way out of the chains that my grandfather struggled through in my father. That was a 45 minute interaction between me and him. And so So then he says to me, can you bring this into our university, because this is what students need because they're struggling with anxiety and depression and peer pressure and parental pressure. So like all I did with him was introduce him to the one that made him and the one that loves him. And he was like, the like the man healed by the pool of Bethesda when they asked him who healed you. And he says, I don't know, the guy, that guy that came to here heals me. And then the man begins up pursuit to learn exactly who healed them. Yeah, that's what this Indian professor is now on with me the journey of like, I want to know exactly who loved this. And we love His love is Christ. Yeah, that's real end up. Wow. So that I mean, and that's just a total stranger to me. You know, once that, but now not anymore. Yeah. In that short amount of time, I know very deeply about what goes on in his heart. We never talked about astrophysics. Right? Because that's out here to him. But he wanted to talk about what's in here. And so once we, once we learn to agree and believe that God, God does want to talk to people, God has been with this guy whole life. And speaking to him, he's just never listened. Because the lie is easier to believe than the truth always.

Joshua Johnson: 27:09

Yeah. Yeah, it is. And walking in that light, it seems to be way too easy. And you know, that's why I love you know, the beginning of Jesus's ministry, when he gets baptized, and he hears from the Father, this is my beloved Son, in whom I'm well pleased and was empowered by the Spirit and the Spirit sent him into the, into the wilderness to be tested by the devil. And Satan comes and he tempts him. But Jesus doesn't fall for the temptation, because he knows his true identity. He knows who the father is, he knows where it came from. And he knows what his mission is, he knows where he's going, and why he's there. And that for us, if we're doing anything, if we're entering into any sort of relationship with other people, if we could be grounded, the same way, Jesus was grounded in his true identity, knowing where we come from, and knowing why we exist on Earth, to encounter others with the love of God, then we can actually encounter anybody and everybody. You know what I love about Jesus, then as he enters into everyday life, and people ask him questions, Jesus didn't give them information. A lot of times the he asked questions back he, he changed up the conversation so that it really makes people think and discover, and not just have this typical language exchange that we usually have. How can we, instead of imitate somebody else on Earth, but how can we imitate Christ in our interaction with others, so that we can be like Jesus in our invitation to discovery?

Jamie Winship: 28:50

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think one one thing is like, as you're as you're doing really well, it's like to observe Jesus for sure, is that Jesus doesn't have a formula for how he talks to people. He's not developing an arguments against, you know, Samaritans and formulating apologetic and political programs to limit programs against Pharisees, as he's talking to human beings, and he's talking to them as if they're unique. Yeah. Right. So when he talks to this person is different than how he talks to this person. And whether he's talking to a Roman or a SyroPhoenician. He's speaking to that person in the truth of who that person is. And he's calling that truth out of right. So that makes a conversation unique. So that's really important. It's like, don't do a canned thing with people. Like when a person says I'm a Muslim, okay. Oh, well, I know what to do with a Muslim. Like, that's not as this is a huge, distinct human being with a unique identity uniquely created by God, different from anyone else. So we need to honor what God has done when God made this particular person. Home in a group. Right? That's how the enemy does it. That's how the enemy works. But what Jesus is the process that Jesus is walking him through is really beautiful. And the process as as kind of we've seen it in Scripture, and as we kind of work it out with people is like a circle of it's a very beautiful confession and repentance transformation. It's just that's where he's walking them. Or we say truth tell into mind change into form change, and you just watch Jesus talking to people. The very first thing he's inviting them into is confession or truth telling, right? I was raised confession means I'm sorry. And repentance means I'm really, really sorry. Those words Jesus is never never, never never asking someone to apologize to him or God if he ever does that. Even when Peter denies Him, Jesus didn't say I'm waiting for you to say you're sorry about this, never never even addresses it. And Peter never apologizes for it. But what what Jesus does demand of Peter is confession. Truth tell truth teller, right? And that's what we're terrible at doing. We can say we're sorry all day long about stuff. But we have a very difficult time telling the truth about what we really believe about ourselves, God, others. And so when Jesus is talking to a person, he's he's inviting the true them to speak. Right? He want him because he can't talk to the false identity, because it's not real. But a lot of times what we're, what we're presenting is just self protection and self promotion. It's the false. And so Jesus is saying, I want you to tell me the truth about what you really believe about yourself. The situation you find yourself in what you believe about God, what you believe about, Samaritans, Gentile, like, tell the truth about what you believe. Because when we know and experience truth, it always leads to freedom. Right? But we're, we're diabolical liars. And it's not because we are just liars. It's because we actually don't know what's true even about ourselves, not really not? Well, because we've never explored it. And so Jesus is inviting them like to just say the truth about what you believe, like what the Samaritan woman she says, How is it that you being a Jew, and then she starts to give all the ways that she views the world, you're a Jew, and a man, I'm a woman and a Samaritan, and not a good woman. And she's, and she's saying, where she sees herself in the world, and that she's hopelessly stuck in and then we'll never get out. That's, and so that's confession. And then confession allows Jesus then to tell her the truth about who she is, which causes her to change her mind, which is repentance, metanoia, it paints her view of Jews, it changes our view of men, it changes her view of the Messiah, it changes our view of herself dramatically. As a result of it, she runs up to bring the whole town. Now that's confession, which leads to repentance, which leads to transformation. So, truth, tell mind, change into form, change it see the reform changes as a result of the mind change in the truth. When I'm talking to a person, all I want them to do is tell the truth. Tell me what you're most afraid of in life. We can talk about 10,000 Other things about God theology, the Trinity, but I'm asking you one question, what are you most afraid of? Like, what are you afraid of? And then once they start to truly tell about that we are on our way. Yeah, that's what he's doing time and time again with people. Wow.

Joshua Johnson: 33:50

So how do we enter into that when say, I sit down at a bus stop, and I'm sitting next to somebody that I've never encountered before? How do we bridge into a conversation where confession happens and truth healing happens?

Jamie Winship: 34:06

Right? So I so what I do is I know two things about there's like, it's like humans have two driving deep emotions. Probably the main one is fear that we're running on some at fear at some level. Most of us are pretty fearful of inflation, war, the economy, everything. It's deep inside of us. And so it's the most intimate that people can have between each others to share their fear, their deep fear with each other. That's the intimacy. That's why Jesus has cast all your cares on me. Yeah. Because I care for you. If you're heavy, heavy laden, con to me saying come to me and your fear, guilt and shame. And tell me what it is and lay it down here. He's not saying all your success and happiness and joy, that that's the invitation is common your brokenness in your witness. So when I'm sitting next to a person at a bus stop at some level in their life, the main negative emotion they're dealing with is fear. Yeah. So I so I can ask him any kind of question like that, you know, just a little bit into the conversation like what do you like, what do you most stressed out about in life currently? Like, what is it because perfect love casts out fear? Yeah. So if I love this person, and I want to demonstrate love to him, I'm going to take away their fear. I see that guys all the time. Take away their fear, think they're going to push you away. They're gonna react against you because afraid that they're not mad. But anger comes from fear. It's a secondary emotion to fear. So even with my own growth, On Sundays when I have a chance to talk to him, you know, they live all over the world. I always ask them, Is there any place in your life where you're dealing with fear? Because the fear is warning you about things that you believe that are false. That's what fear is doing. Yeah. warning you that your thinking is going to hurt you. And so I always ask them that it saves a lot of time. So that's one driving emotion. The other one in a healthy person is joy. So I'll ask a person tell me the last time you just experienced joy. And for a lot of people, that's a hard thing to think of. Yeah. What or do you do you feel joyful? One day, a week, zero times a week. So Joy, Joy is the fruit of the Spirit. Love produces joy in people, and you can't manufacture so joy is the is the jet fuel of creativity in humans is joy. And joy is always asking the question, what do we do next? How do we move forward? What do we do next, even in heart? And fear is always saying how do we shut this down? How do we stop this? How do we get out of this? So they're operating in one at every human is in one of those two? Right. And so I know in any conversation, and I love doing this, because I'm commuting to another city on Mondays, and it's a 45 minute flight, and I love just jumping on the plane, you know, 5am on a Monday morning, and the person next to me, if they feel like talking a lot of them don't. But it's just like, hey, what are you looking forward to? Or like, what do you stress? Is this a stressful week for you? Or what are you stressed out about? Because I want them to confess to me, yeah, I want to lead them into confession. And once they truth tell, I can say yeah, you know what, here's something I do with that kind of thing. That makes sense.

Joshua Johnson: 37:30

Yeah. It makes total sense. And as you're you're walking through that and talking about, you know, people feeling fear, and people feeling joy, like I could I could tell you right now, the fear that I I am feeling at the moment. And I can tell you the joy that I'm feeling at the moment. That is, I mean, both are true at the same time that I have fear, and I have joy. As you know, I'd love to strip away more fear and know that I am loved deeply that this perfect level casts out all fear. I want that I want to know that, you know, every day to encounter that love.

Jamie Winship: 38:07

All humans want that they just don't believe it's possible. I mean, I'm talking about believers don't believe it's possible. They always Yeah, but in reality, but in reality, I'm saying no, listen to this verse. fixing our eyes on Jesus, the one who authored your faith, the one who perfects it, the one who does all of it. He's not inviting you and to do it. Yeah, he's inviting you in to participate with him in it. That's one thing to take away fear. Fiction or the author and perfecter of faith for who for the joy set before him endured the cross? Yeah. Joy is not this like, yeah, it's all going so well. Joy is like I know who I am. I know the truth of who I am. I know where I am moving toward because my pain is informing doing. And even though that journey leads through some very difficult, difficult stuff, even unto death, perhaps. Joy is my main motivator, it makes me question like Jesus in the garden. Not my will. But Thy will be done fears. Like, I'm getting the heck out of this thing. How do I shut this down? Joy is like, is there another way to do it than what I'm thinking? Nevertheless, not My will. But Thy will be done. That's the that's the encourage the courage of joy, moving us court. And what's cool is even when you're, you know, even like when I was doing this writing project, and I'm on or I'm teaching, I have we have a writing group. And even when writers are trying to write their first book, or whatever they're trying to do, it's it's joy, that it's joy that'll push you through it. It's because it gets hard and you get rejected and people critique you. It's okay. It's like joy, but fear will shut you down. Fear, make you back and just say it's not gonna happen. I'm not going to make it. Yeah. So that's, that's has a lot to do with community as well. But yeah, and being couples, if you want to have an intimate marriage, share with each other what you're afraid of all the time, tell your deepest fears to the other. Because that is the most vulnerable, you can be not sharing stuck. crimes you've committed in the past or that kind of thing. It's like, I don't care what you've done in your life. I want to know what you're afraid of right now. Yeah, that's intimacy. Yeah, right. vulnerability.

Joshua Johnson: 40:27

Yeah. Yesterday as I was having a conversation with, with my wife, you know, I told her it was yesterday. I felt anxiety for the first time in a long time, and I don't I don't usually I'm not an anxious person. I don't feel anxiety very often. And so I was entering into that conversation with them. My wife, I was saying, you know, I have this sense of anxiety. I really don't know where it comes from. And the first thing that she did, is she, she shared with me her anxiety. Is it this? Because I'm anxious about this? And I said, No, it's not that. And we went through a process. And I started to go through that process of, alright, I want to discover what is this fear and anxiety that I have in myself that is not named at the moment. But as soon as I was able to walk through that, and especially with Jesus, I was able to name that fear and anxiety. And today, I feel great, because I was able to name it, confess it truth, tell, this is it. And Jesus was able to say, Oh, I got you. And this is what we're gonna do together. And you know, I love that here in your book, your new book, Living fearless, which is an amazing book, I have devoured it was able to actually go through the process. What I love about your book is that it's not just information, but it's, it's practical. And it's a guide that anybody could go through. And not very many people make their books practical. And as a difficult thing to do, is to take concepts and make them practical, so excellent, excellent jobs, to be able to help people walk through that. And I was able to walk through that process with myself and gotten some new insights from God, about my identity. What, where he's leading me and guiding me. So it's good, what are some of the things that you would love to see people get out of your book?

Jamie Winship: 42:21

Yeah, that process that just like you're saying, that very beautiful living process. And just for me, it was just having, you know, being with people further down the road than me that would just say, yeah, they wouldn't tell me things to do. They would say, you need to like spend time with the Lord, ask the Lord these questions, and write down the answers or the strategies or the ideas that come to your mind. I've never had anyone that seems like that's what you do, like, and they were like, This is what meditation This is about walking with Jesus being filled. The Holy Spirit is about if any man lacks a lot of masks. And so cool thing is, when are you going to run out of questions to ask Jesus never. And every time Christ elevates us, or we ascend to a new level of our identity, he keeps on going, it doesn't stop. He never he'll never they were looking at you and go, Okay, well, that's it, you're done. You got it. It's it's this journey into beyond what you could ask or imagine, as Paul says. So I'm just encouraging people when you're when you're going through this book and all of that. It's just keep going back to the Lord, even if all you did every day was wake up and say, God, what do you want me to know about today? And then what do you want me to do about what you just said? And so like, for example, I'm working with like, this group, one group in this other city. And it's a it's a very, it's a tough situation. And they're not an easy group. They're very high achievers, and they're not Christian background at all. Yeah, they're, they're quite hostile to it, actually. So I've been meeting with them for about a month now. And we're of like, work all the way through all the hostility, because the hostility is based in fear. Yeah. Right. And I know going in with them. And I also know that they make 1000 times more money than I ever will. And so I can't be intimidated by their level of success. Right. And so that's my own woundedness, right. That's my own measuring against them. And so every Monday at 4am, when I'm driving to the airport, I have to go every Monday, I have to go through this Lord, I feel 100% inadequate to handle this group. That's my confession. And then what I do when I get there with them in the room, is I tell them that I just want you guys to know my I'm gonna tell you my fear right now, my fear is that I'm going to let you guys down. And what I'm hoping to see happen among you is I'm going to be a disappointment to you, it's not going to work. And that has done more to move those folks. Because they're not used to being in a room where people tell the truth. It's all about, hey, look what I did. This is my resume. This is how much money we made last week. But internally, they're filled with anxiety, and it's producing conflict in the organization. Right. Yeah. And so my I'm, I'm modeling in front of them confession, and it's so moving to them. And so now it's allowed them to come in and say, Actually, I'm pretty stressed out and fearful about and then we get to go down until like, well, what does that mean? Where did You learn that if you're not in control, everything's going to be a disaster. Yeah. Where did you learn very deep down into their lives? And we've actually become quite close. Yeah, right. This is exactly how Jesus so the book is like an example. And the book actually, I'm doing with a roomful of men, you know, when I first did it, and I'm walking this three or 400 men through this process in a day, and they're at tables, saying out loud, what's happening, you know, and so I want i You can't give away when you don't have so as I'm doing this in my own life, and dealing with fear, guilt, and shame and learning, listening to God, speak back to me. And what happens when I the form of how I do things changes, according to my new view of God and myself. It's like you then you want that to flow into other people. Yeah. Right. Like Jesus says to the Samaritan woman from you will flow the rivers of living water, I don't have to go up into the town and talk to the people, you can do it. But you have to do it and your true self. Self will never do it. But your true you can. Yeah, and so it's, I'm drinking of Christ. And then from me, the waters are flowing, you know, the whole abiding imagery that I'm using there.

Joshua Johnson: 47:04

That's gorgeous, I hope, I hope, there are a lot of people that that read it, and get it and live it out and live it into their true identity. Because the world could be so much different, and so much better, if that is the reality. And that it changes what we perceive as reality, that we are actually see what the reality of the Kingdom of God is that Jesus is the answer to the true reality. He knows, he has the best understanding of what reality really is. And we don't. And so I really, I pray, and I hope that people can discover what is the true reality of what Jesus understands and knows about the Kingdom of God. It's beautiful. Just a couple quick questions that the Antoine, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Jamie Winship: 47:54

Oh, yeah, rest, relax, relax, calm down. And I would take away these two words from my vocabulary, responsibility and expectation, I wouldn't remove those two words from my vocabulary. Because those words were not in. They're not in Hebrew, and they're not in Greek. And they're nowhere in the Bible, those two words, words were created in the industrial revolution for factory workers. dehumanizing, it's put, we're going to put you on a line, this is the production rate we want you to participate in. And these are your responsibilities. And this is the expectation, and it dehumanizes us and when you put responsibility on a person, it's probably a discussion. When you put responsibility on a person you create, I'm not enough and that person immediately. Yeah. And when you tell them a list of expectations, you create failure. So in the Scripture, what is in the Scripture is the ability to respond. Yep. Absolutely. And expect just to live expectantly. 27, it said, David says, expect the Lord. And so when people ask me, what do you expect to happen in this scenario, I say I expect the Lord. And so I all humans have the ability to respond to anything God invites us into, but he never invites us in and then dumps all the responsibility of it on us. He never does that in Scripture. That's a very human life based way of living and expectations. So I would just remove those two words, and live a life of responding to what the Lord invites me into. And then expecting the Lord to be in it the whole time. Yeah, and see what happens.

Joshua Johnson: 49:39

So beautiful. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend

Jamie Winship: 49:44

I am reading. I don't know if I'd recommend this in this time in Paris, and I was at the Shakespeare Shakespeare bookstore there that I love the old Angel books. And I bought a book about why in this 1600 17 century, why there was such a dramatic shift in thinking in every sphere of society, in math, and science, in religion, all in those 100 years. Because it was the most warlike broken down awful time in the history of Europe. And yet it created the most dramatic change in thinking about everything. Interesting writers writing about how that occurred. And basically his premise is that in great chaos comes great creativity. Yeah, shift paradigms, unless old paradigms are falling apart. So that should take away a lot of our fear. And when our paradigms are breaking down, out. Yep. Okay, so Okay.

Joshua Johnson: 50:48

Sounds like something that's happening at the moment. So yeah, exactly why we need these new paradigms. And one of the, you know what I love to talk about repentance and talk about metanoia. And so one of the definitions of metanoia that I really like is a paradigm shift. You know, it's, you know, so we're going from one line of thinking to another line of thinking it's, it's a new paradigm. So it's good. Where can people connect with you? If they, they want to figure out who they are? Our identity,

Jamie Winship: 51:23

our website, identity exchange.com is a is a great place to connect with us. And we have really great courses on there. And we have good coaches, too, that if a person wants a coach, yeah, so identity exchange.com is the best place in the book Living fearless is on there and connection to Baker books, where it's, it's being published. So

Joshua Johnson: 51:48

excellent. But Jamie, it was fantastic. It was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. So thank you so much for being on and you know, I just pray that people will be able to live in their true identity and calling and they will know who God calls them and what he's calling them towards. So thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.