{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":13.41,"endTime":15.39,"body":"Hello and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":13.41,"endTime":15.39,"body":"welcome to the shifting culture"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":15.39,"endTime":17.94,"body":"podcasts in which we have"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":15.39,"endTime":17.94,"body":"conversations about the culture"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":17.94,"endTime":22.2,"body":"we create, and the impact we can"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":17.94,"endTime":22.2,"body":"make. We longed to see the body"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":22.2,"endTime":27.69,"body":"of Christ look like Jesus. I'm"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":22.2,"endTime":27.69,"body":"your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":27.69,"endTime":31.14,"body":"shifting culture podcast.com To"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":27.69,"endTime":31.14,"body":"interact or donate, every"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":31.14,"endTime":35.49,"body":"donation is helpful, and every"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":31.14,"endTime":35.49,"body":"donation is appreciated. Thank"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":35.49,"endTime":38.22,"body":"you. Don't forget to hit the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":35.49,"endTime":38.22,"body":"Follow button on your favorite"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":38.22,"endTime":42.0,"body":"podcast app to be notified when"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":38.22,"endTime":42.0,"body":"new episodes come out each"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":42.03,"endTime":45.36,"body":"Tuesday. Previous guests on the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":42.03,"endTime":45.36,"body":"show have included Michael"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":45.36,"endTime":50.43,"body":"frost, Drew Heon, and Daniel"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":45.36,"endTime":50.43,"body":"Ripley Burgess, you could go"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":50.43,"endTime":54.51,"body":"back, listen to those episodes"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":50.43,"endTime":54.51,"body":"and more. But today's guest is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":54.51,"endTime":58.5,"body":"Mark Baker. Mark is professor of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":54.51,"endTime":58.5,"body":"mission and theology at Fresno"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":58.5,"endTime":62.13,"body":"Pacific biblical. He previously"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":58.5,"endTime":62.13,"body":"was a missionary in Honduras for"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":62.13,"endTime":65.67,"body":"10 years, his latest book"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":62.13,"endTime":65.67,"body":"centered set Church discipleship"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":65.67,"endTime":68.85,"body":"and community without"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":65.67,"endTime":68.85,"body":"judgmentalism is the topic of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":68.85,"endTime":72.42,"body":"our conversation today. Enjoy"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":68.85,"endTime":72.42,"body":"the conversation and discover"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":72.69,"endTime":76.05,"body":"how we can be a community"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":72.69,"endTime":76.05,"body":"oriented to and oriented around"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":76.05,"endTime":80.79,"body":"Jesus at the center. Here's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":76.05,"endTime":80.79,"body":"Mark. Mark, welcome to the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":80.79,"endTime":82.65,"body":"podcast. Thanks for hopping on."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":83.58,"endTime":85.53,"body":"Thank you. Great to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":83.58,"endTime":85.53,"body":"be with you. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":85.98,"endTime":89.94,"body":"So I love your"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":85.98,"endTime":89.94,"body":"book, centered set Church, and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":90.48,"endTime":93.57,"body":"the principles and they're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":90.48,"endTime":93.57,"body":"really fascinating for me, and I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":93.57,"endTime":96.9,"body":"think it's something we need to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":93.57,"endTime":96.9,"body":"get to the church. I'd love to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":96.9,"endTime":100.68,"body":"start a little bit back in your"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":96.9,"endTime":100.68,"body":"story in Honduras, and how did"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":100.71,"endTime":105.57,"body":"how did your time in Honduras"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":100.71,"endTime":105.57,"body":"affect you and your your"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":105.57,"endTime":111.12,"body":"viewpoint on church? Jesus,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":105.57,"endTime":111.12,"body":"evangelism? What did that look"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":111.12,"endTime":111.81,"body":"like for you?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":112.77,"endTime":116.46,"body":"Thank you. Well,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":112.77,"endTime":116.46,"body":"that's a great question. Um, so"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":117.51,"endTime":121.08,"body":"yeah, let me let me say a couple"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":117.51,"endTime":121.08,"body":"of things. And then I'll bring"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":121.08,"endTime":124.38,"body":"it into the centered said church"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":121.08,"endTime":124.38,"body":"discussion away, it affected me."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":124.53,"endTime":130.02,"body":"So. Yeah, so I got out of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":124.53,"endTime":130.02,"body":"college, graduated from college,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":130.05,"endTime":135.63,"body":"went to Honduras. And yeah, I'd"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":130.05,"endTime":135.63,"body":"say a fairly typical, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":135.63,"endTime":141.18,"body":"mainstream evangelical. And then"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":135.63,"endTime":141.18,"body":"I'm in this situation of extreme"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":141.18,"endTime":146.52,"body":"poverty, and started asking lots"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":141.18,"endTime":146.52,"body":"of questions, and what is my"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":146.52,"endTime":149.67,"body":"faith have to do with this, and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":146.52,"endTime":149.67,"body":"in a certain sense, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":149.67,"endTime":154.32,"body":"became maybe, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":149.67,"endTime":154.32,"body":"disqualify me to start too hard,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":154.32,"endTime":158.91,"body":"but to say, you know, sort of a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":154.32,"endTime":158.91,"body":"shift away from my evangelistic"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":158.94,"endTime":163.5,"body":"kind of focus, and more into"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":158.94,"endTime":163.5,"body":"action of caring for people's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":163.5,"endTime":169.05,"body":"needs. But over time, in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":163.5,"endTime":169.05,"body":"Honduras, what I found happening"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":169.08,"endTime":174.66,"body":"was, as I more and more"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":169.08,"endTime":174.66,"body":"encountered people and got into"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":174.66,"endTime":179.4,"body":"their lives and, and encountered"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":174.66,"endTime":179.4,"body":"ways that they were suffering"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":179.4,"endTime":186.69,"body":"under the weight of religious"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":179.4,"endTime":186.69,"body":"legalism, and the weight of a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":186.69,"endTime":191.4,"body":"concept of God as an angry"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":186.69,"endTime":191.4,"body":"accusing figure, and then"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":191.4,"endTime":195.54,"body":"combined with that legalism, it"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":191.4,"endTime":195.54,"body":"was toxic. And so over time,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":195.54,"endTime":202.83,"body":"what I felt was that I'm still I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":195.54,"endTime":202.83,"body":"mean, to this day active in, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":202.83,"endTime":207.12,"body":"know, in alleviating poverty,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":202.83,"endTime":207.12,"body":"concerns about justice, but over"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":207.12,"endTime":212.58,"body":"time I became, what I most"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":207.12,"endTime":212.58,"body":"wanted to talk about was Jesus"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":212.61,"endTime":217.38,"body":"and invite people to meet Jesus,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":212.61,"endTime":217.38,"body":"because I had a sense of Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":217.38,"endTime":221.46,"body":"sure, their, their physical"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":217.38,"endTime":221.46,"body":"situation matters. But you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":221.46,"endTime":224.94,"body":"even if we fix their leafy,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":221.46,"endTime":224.94,"body":"leaky roof, if they're living"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":224.94,"endTime":229.11,"body":"with this toxic theology, and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":224.94,"endTime":229.11,"body":"under the weight of this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":229.14,"endTime":236.07,"body":"religious legalism, I found"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":229.14,"endTime":236.07,"body":"myself more and more, yeah, back"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":236.07,"endTime":240.42,"body":"to an evangelistic focus, focus,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":236.07,"endTime":240.42,"body":"focus, although, yeah, I would"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":240.42,"endTime":245.13,"body":"say with a with a fuller richer"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":240.42,"endTime":245.13,"body":"sense of why why I was doing"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":245.13,"endTime":250.17,"body":"that. So So in that sense,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":245.13,"endTime":250.17,"body":"experientially, in Honduras is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":250.17,"endTime":254.55,"body":"very significant for my own"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":250.17,"endTime":254.55,"body":"personal develop meant but now"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":254.55,"endTime":259.02,"body":"an interesting thing for as far"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":254.55,"endTime":259.02,"body":"as centered said church and how"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":259.02,"endTime":262.62,"body":"even I start the book is I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":259.02,"endTime":262.62,"body":"myself grew up in a pretty"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":262.62,"endTime":268.35,"body":"legalistic setting. But I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":262.62,"endTime":268.35,"body":"thought that I had left legalism"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":268.38,"endTime":272.04,"body":"behind Well, I did I, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":268.38,"endTime":272.04,"body":"sort of move the rules and even"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":272.04,"endTime":274.47,"body":"Yeah, when I'm Honduras, and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":272.04,"endTime":274.47,"body":"what he's just all these people,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":274.47,"endTime":276.78,"body":"you know, why they're talking"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":274.47,"endTime":276.78,"body":"about, you know, not going to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":276.78,"endTime":280.29,"body":"movies and this kind of stuff."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":276.78,"endTime":280.29,"body":"But, you know, my early years in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":280.29,"endTime":287.34,"body":"Honduras, I was as judgmental or"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":280.29,"endTime":287.34,"body":"more so than I had been in my,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":287.37,"endTime":291.93,"body":"you know, legalistic years. So,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":287.37,"endTime":291.93,"body":"and this I didn't see it at the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":291.93,"endTime":297.09,"body":"time, but looking back, I came"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":291.93,"endTime":297.09,"body":"to realize, oh, yeah, I had just"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":297.09,"endTime":302.25,"body":"shifted, you know, one way of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":297.09,"endTime":302.25,"body":"drawing On the line, and seeing"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":302.25,"endTime":306.75,"body":"myself as superior to others,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":302.25,"endTime":306.75,"body":"which at my youth had been, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":306.75,"endTime":311.4,"body":"know, don't drink, smoke, dance,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":306.75,"endTime":311.4,"body":"swear, etc. And now it had been,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":311.43,"endTime":315.72,"body":"you know, are you helping the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":311.43,"endTime":315.72,"body":"poor, or even argue legalistic,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":315.72,"endTime":318.57,"body":"like, you know, I looked sort of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":315.72,"endTime":318.57,"body":"judgmentally like these other"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":318.57,"endTime":321.84,"body":"these Honduran churches are so"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":318.57,"endTime":321.84,"body":"legalistic. And then that is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":321.84,"endTime":326.31,"body":"really what propelled me into"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":321.84,"endTime":326.31,"body":"the work on centered set Church,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":326.58,"endTime":331.65,"body":"because I realized, in part"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":326.58,"endTime":331.65,"body":"through studying Galatians, with"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":331.65,"endTime":337.47,"body":"a with a church in Honduras,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":331.65,"endTime":337.47,"body":"that we needed some some way of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":337.47,"endTime":341.73,"body":"talking about this than that was"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":337.47,"endTime":341.73,"body":"broader than just legalism,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":341.76,"endTime":347.4,"body":"because because there's this,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":341.76,"endTime":347.4,"body":"this underlying judgmentalism,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":347.4,"endTime":351.0,"body":"this underlying sense of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":347.4,"endTime":351.0,"body":"superiority, and, and this still"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":351.0,"endTime":354.81,"body":"underlying weight of No, and I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":351.0,"endTime":354.81,"body":"felt this myself, I was still"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":354.81,"endTime":358.2,"body":"trying so hard to be a good"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":354.81,"endTime":358.2,"body":"Christian to measure up to my"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":358.2,"endTime":363.27,"body":"own new categories of whatnot"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":358.2,"endTime":363.27,"body":"meth. So that's some, some of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":363.27,"endTime":367.14,"body":"the ways that yeah, my"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":363.27,"endTime":367.14,"body":"experience there was influential"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":367.14,"endTime":368.25,"body":"in play into this book."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":369.12,"endTime":370.59,"body":"That was"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":369.12,"endTime":370.59,"body":"helpful. You know, I heard"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":370.92,"endTime":375.63,"body":"George Patterson train he, he"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":370.92,"endTime":375.63,"body":"spent many years in Honduras,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":375.84,"endTime":379.5,"body":"one of the things that he he"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":375.84,"endTime":379.5,"body":"does this little little thing"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":379.5,"endTime":384.36,"body":"that he used to do, where he"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":379.5,"endTime":384.36,"body":"talks about the actual care for"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":384.36,"endTime":389.1,"body":"the poor and providing for needs"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":384.36,"endTime":389.1,"body":"and meeting people's needs, are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":389.13,"endTime":394.83,"body":"one wing of an eagle, and the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":389.13,"endTime":394.83,"body":"evangelistic Jesus, like, you"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":394.83,"endTime":398.1,"body":"need some spirituality, you need"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":394.83,"endTime":398.1,"body":"some faith as another wing of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":398.1,"endTime":402.39,"body":"the eagle. And if you just have"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":398.1,"endTime":402.39,"body":"one of those wings, you know,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":402.39,"endTime":404.67,"body":"you're gonna fly in a circle,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":402.39,"endTime":404.67,"body":"you're not actually going to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":404.67,"endTime":408.06,"body":"move forward. And we need both"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":404.67,"endTime":408.06,"body":"right, we need to actually care"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":408.06,"endTime":412.23,"body":"for the poor, the marginalized,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":408.06,"endTime":412.23,"body":"we need to help. And we need to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":412.35,"endTime":416.4,"body":"bring them to an encounter with"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":412.35,"endTime":416.4,"body":"Jesus, so that they can move"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":416.4,"endTime":418.98,"body":"into a different realm and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":416.4,"endTime":418.98,"body":"different possibility. And I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":418.98,"endTime":422.22,"body":"think that's, you know, part of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":418.98,"endTime":422.22,"body":"what you were able to find as"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":422.22,"endTime":428.25,"body":"your journey through Honduras."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":422.22,"endTime":428.25,"body":"Yes. You so if we're going back"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":428.25,"endTime":433.11,"body":"into central set Church, give us"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":428.25,"endTime":433.11,"body":"frame it for us. What does that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":433.11,"endTime":435.87,"body":"look like? Paul Hubert talks a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":433.11,"endTime":435.87,"body":"little bit about the centered"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":435.87,"endTime":440.28,"body":"set versus bounded set. And for"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":435.87,"endTime":440.28,"body":"you, so what are you trying to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":440.28,"endTime":443.28,"body":"do in this book? And what are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":440.28,"endTime":443.28,"body":"some of these definitions that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":443.28,"endTime":445.92,"body":"you're starting with? So good"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":443.28,"endTime":445.92,"body":"frame our conversation?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":446.31,"endTime":451.35,"body":"Yeah, thank you. So"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":446.31,"endTime":451.35,"body":"and I would invite listeners to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":451.5,"endTime":456.42,"body":"go to centered set church.com."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":451.5,"endTime":456.42,"body":"So maybe, you know, hit pause as"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":456.42,"endTime":459.93,"body":"you're listening to this."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":456.42,"endTime":459.93,"body":"Because this is a very visual"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":459.93,"endTime":464.1,"body":"diagram oriented things. And so"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":459.93,"endTime":464.1,"body":"on that website, Senator,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":464.34,"endTime":467.88,"body":"Senators set church.com. If you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":464.34,"endTime":467.88,"body":"go down to the second segment,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":467.88,"endTime":471.84,"body":"there's a free PDF there that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":467.88,"endTime":471.84,"body":"has diagrams of what I'm going"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":471.84,"endTime":474.93,"body":"to talk about right now. So hit"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":471.84,"endTime":474.93,"body":"pause, get that come back and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":474.93,"endTime":478.62,"body":"join us. So I want to pick up"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":474.93,"endTime":478.62,"body":"just where I was talking about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":478.62,"endTime":481.8,"body":"myself. And if you if you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":478.62,"endTime":481.8,"body":"remember, I said your I was"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":481.8,"endTime":488.46,"body":"drawing lines. And so a bounded"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":481.8,"endTime":488.46,"body":"set. And again, thank Joshua for"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":488.46,"endTime":491.97,"body":"giving credit to Paul Hiebert,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":488.46,"endTime":491.97,"body":"because I'm borrowing this from"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":491.97,"endTime":495.93,"body":"him. And everyone else who talks"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":491.97,"endTime":495.93,"body":"about this is as well. So a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":495.93,"endTime":499.86,"body":"bounded a bounded set. And we'll"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":495.93,"endTime":499.86,"body":"go right to churches. So a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":499.86,"endTime":506.88,"body":"bounded church is one that draws"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":499.86,"endTime":506.88,"body":"a line a circle. And it defines"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":506.88,"endTime":512.25,"body":"who belongs by the People's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":506.88,"endTime":512.25,"body":"orientation relationship with"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":512.25,"endTime":515.97,"body":"that line. And so if you fulfill"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":512.25,"endTime":515.97,"body":"what the line is, so for me as a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":515.97,"endTime":519.6,"body":"youth, it was, you know, this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":515.97,"endTime":519.6,"body":"list of things not to do and to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":519.6,"endTime":522.9,"body":"do. And then later it was, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":519.6,"endTime":522.9,"body":"know, I'm in churches that are"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":522.9,"endTime":526.53,"body":"you helping the poor, even and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":522.9,"endTime":526.53,"body":"even as I said, Are you not"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":526.53,"endTime":530.16,"body":"legalistic size in a church in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":526.53,"endTime":530.16,"body":"Honduras, that we were proudly"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":530.16,"endTime":535.35,"body":"not legalistic? But we had drawn"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":530.16,"endTime":535.35,"body":"a line, we were a circle. And so"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":535.35,"endTime":539.82,"body":"you use that circle to define"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":535.35,"endTime":539.82,"body":"who is in and who is out, and it"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":539.82,"endTime":544.29,"body":"lends itself to judge mentalism."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":539.82,"endTime":544.29,"body":"So that's, that's a bounded"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":544.29,"endTime":550.05,"body":"group, a line that defines who"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":544.29,"endTime":550.05,"body":"belongs. So in reaction to that."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":550.62,"endTime":552.96,"body":"Some people appropriately say,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":550.62,"endTime":552.96,"body":"you know, this, this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":552.96,"endTime":556.83,"body":"judgmentalism is horrible, this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":552.96,"endTime":556.83,"body":"horrible that shame that flows"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":556.83,"endTime":560.52,"body":"from this, we've got to get rid"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":556.83,"endTime":560.52,"body":"of it. So what do you do? Well,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":560.61,"endTime":565.2,"body":"then erase the line. And then"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":560.61,"endTime":565.2,"body":"what you get is what Hiebert"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":565.2,"endTime":571.26,"body":"calls a fuzzy set or a fuzzy"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":565.2,"endTime":571.26,"body":"church. And it is, and I think"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":571.26,"endTime":572.91,"body":"it's important to view these"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":571.26,"endTime":572.91,"body":"things, you know, on a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":572.91,"endTime":576.99,"body":"continuum. So they're they're"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":572.91,"endTime":576.99,"body":"expressions of the same dynamic"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":576.99,"endTime":582.12,"body":"and one has the line the other"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":576.99,"endTime":582.12,"body":"doesn't. So a fuzzy church has"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":582.12,"endTime":586.59,"body":"no line that defines who belongs"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":582.12,"endTime":586.59,"body":"and so it takes care of the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":586.59,"endTime":591.0,"body":"judgmentalism problem, but it"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":586.59,"endTime":591.0,"body":"brings in other issues. So then,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":591.24,"endTime":595.11,"body":"it's hard to have a sense of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":591.24,"endTime":595.11,"body":"identity because well, what are"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":595.11,"endTime":601.08,"body":"we and in essence, what you are"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":595.11,"endTime":601.08,"body":"is not bounded. And there's it's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":601.08,"endTime":605.52,"body":"very hard to even talk about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":601.08,"endTime":605.52,"body":"conversion because there's not"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":605.52,"endTime":609.9,"body":"like a definition of who we are"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":605.52,"endTime":609.9,"body":"this sense of crossing joining"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":609.9,"endTime":617.67,"body":"in. And so Hiebert, thankfully"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":609.9,"endTime":617.67,"body":"offered a a third option, which"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":617.67,"endTime":620.22,"body":"is a totally different"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":617.67,"endTime":620.22,"body":"paradigms. So it's not on the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":620.22,"endTime":623.16,"body":"continuum. It's a, it's a, it's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":620.22,"endTime":623.16,"body":"a totally different way of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":623.16,"endTime":627.21,"body":"answering the question, who"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":623.16,"endTime":627.21,"body":"belongs? Who's part of us? Who"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":627.21,"endTime":631.59,"body":"is a Christian in our midst? And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":627.21,"endTime":631.59,"body":"this is a centered set. And so"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":631.59,"endTime":636.51,"body":"what it does, is it, it answers"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":631.59,"endTime":636.51,"body":"the question, not by drawing a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":636.51,"endTime":639.48,"body":"line and saying, Are you on this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":636.51,"endTime":639.48,"body":"side of the line or that side of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":639.48,"endTime":643.86,"body":"the line, but by looking at"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":639.48,"endTime":643.86,"body":"someone's orientation towards"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":643.86,"endTime":649.02,"body":"the center. So as Hubert says,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":643.86,"endTime":649.02,"body":"someone could be very distant"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":649.11,"endTime":652.41,"body":"from the center and not look"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":649.11,"endTime":652.41,"body":"like you know, much of a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":652.41,"endTime":654.93,"body":"Christian Hall, but they have"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":652.41,"endTime":654.93,"body":"turned, you know, they've"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":654.93,"endTime":657.81,"body":"repented there, they've"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":654.93,"endTime":657.81,"body":"literally they turn towards"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":657.81,"endTime":660.75,"body":"Jesus, the center, they're"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":657.81,"endTime":660.75,"body":"heading towards the center, and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":660.75,"endTime":664.56,"body":"you say, okay, that's part of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":660.75,"endTime":664.56,"body":"us, and those, but now, in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":664.56,"endTime":671.58,"body":"contrast to a fuzzy group, a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":664.56,"endTime":671.58,"body":"centered set Church has ways of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":671.58,"endTime":674.97,"body":"defining who belongs and it has,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":671.58,"endTime":674.97,"body":"it still has a sense of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":674.97,"endTime":678.57,"body":"standards, convictions, beliefs."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":674.97,"endTime":678.57,"body":"And so what you're looking at"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":678.6,"endTime":682.68,"body":"are for people who are oriented"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":678.6,"endTime":682.68,"body":"towards the center. And as you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":682.68,"endTime":685.26,"body":"see in the diagram, those are"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":682.68,"endTime":685.26,"body":"arrows going towards the center."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":685.35,"endTime":689.01,"body":"And the people that whose arrows"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":685.35,"endTime":689.01,"body":"are not going toward the center"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":689.04,"endTime":692.04,"body":"are not part of the group,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":689.04,"endTime":692.04,"body":"they're oriented towards"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":692.04,"endTime":696.87,"body":"something else, their life focus"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":692.04,"endTime":696.87,"body":"is on something else. So bounded"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":696.87,"endTime":702.09,"body":"and fuzzy, two extremes of the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":696.87,"endTime":702.09,"body":"same continuum, and then"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":702.12,"endTime":708.51,"body":"centered said, a fully different"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":702.12,"endTime":708.51,"body":"way of defining who belongs to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":708.51,"endTime":712.86,"body":"the group, by direction by"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":708.51,"endTime":712.86,"body":"orientation, rather than being"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":712.86,"endTime":714.48,"body":"on one side of a line or"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":712.86,"endTime":714.48,"body":"another."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":714.9,"endTime":718.41,"body":"Yeah, that's so"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":714.9,"endTime":718.41,"body":"helpful. And it's, and it helps"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":718.56,"endTime":723.6,"body":"no matter where people are at or"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":718.56,"endTime":723.6,"body":"how far away we think somebody"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":723.6,"endTime":728.94,"body":"is at towards the center, which"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":723.6,"endTime":728.94,"body":"hopefully as Jesus, that they"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":728.94,"endTime":732.42,"body":"can actually orient themselves"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":728.94,"endTime":732.42,"body":"there. And they say, Okay, we're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":732.42,"endTime":736.59,"body":"on this journey together, as"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":732.42,"endTime":736.59,"body":"you're orienting yourself. And"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":736.65,"endTime":740.37,"body":"so that's really helpful, in a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":736.65,"endTime":740.37,"body":"sense to have those the centered"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":740.37,"endTime":746.01,"body":"sets. How have you seen a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":740.37,"endTime":746.01,"body":"correlation, not just in the in"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":746.01,"endTime":751.05,"body":"the church, but in, in culture"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":746.01,"endTime":751.05,"body":"as a whole. As I hear you define"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":751.05,"endTime":754.32,"body":"some like a fuzzy church, it"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":751.05,"endTime":754.32,"body":"seems like our culture is moving"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":754.32,"endTime":758.22,"body":"towards not just bounded, a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":754.32,"endTime":758.22,"body":"bounded set, we're actually a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":758.22,"endTime":763.08,"body":"fuzzy culture we're looking to,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":758.22,"endTime":763.08,"body":"we don't really know how to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":763.08,"endTime":767.49,"body":"define ourselves anymore. We"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":763.08,"endTime":767.49,"body":"basically define ourselves"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":767.49,"endTime":771.03,"body":"however we want to, and there's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":767.49,"endTime":771.03,"body":"not really an in group or an out"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":771.03,"endTime":774.63,"body":"group or there's not really a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":771.03,"endTime":774.63,"body":"center. Have you seen the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":774.63,"endTime":776.34,"body":"correlation between the two?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":774.63,"endTime":776.34,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":776.4,"endTime":779.25,"body":"And I'd say, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":776.4,"endTime":779.25,"body":"know, not just that we"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":779.4,"endTime":783.21,"body":"corporately have fuzziness, but"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":779.4,"endTime":783.21,"body":"then that boils down into, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":783.21,"endTime":787.38,"body":"know, interpersonal"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":783.21,"endTime":787.38,"body":"relationship, that such a strong"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":787.38,"endTime":793.44,"body":"sense of hesitancy of you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":787.38,"endTime":793.44,"body":"who am I to tell you, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":793.44,"endTime":797.46,"body":"how to act, how to live, it's,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":793.44,"endTime":797.46,"body":"Hey, you know, whatever, for"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":797.46,"endTime":801.45,"body":"you. Even I use the term in the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":797.46,"endTime":801.45,"body":"book, whatever ism. So yeah, and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":801.45,"endTime":805.8,"body":"on that note, I only coming out"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":801.45,"endTime":805.8,"body":"of the Honduran context, what I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":805.8,"endTime":809.7,"body":"encountered, there was the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":805.8,"endTime":809.7,"body":"problem of bounded churches. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":809.7,"endTime":814.89,"body":"so for years, all I talked about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":809.7,"endTime":814.89,"body":"was bounded and centered. But"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":814.92,"endTime":819.51,"body":"over time, I noticed in my, in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":814.92,"endTime":819.51,"body":"my students here at the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":819.51,"endTime":821.7,"body":"seminary, where I teach"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":819.51,"endTime":821.7,"body":"President Pacific biblical"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":821.7,"endTime":826.47,"body":"seminary, that I was"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":821.7,"endTime":826.47,"body":"encountering more and more"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":826.71,"endTime":829.95,"body":"fuzziness, although, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":826.71,"endTime":829.95,"body":"wasn't using the term but, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":829.95,"endTime":833.79,"body":"know, a stronger sense of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":829.95,"endTime":833.79,"body":"relativism that they were"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":833.79,"endTime":840.96,"body":"bringing with them from society"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":833.79,"endTime":840.96,"body":"and no hesitancy to Yeah, to say"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":840.96,"endTime":845.16,"body":"to someone else, like, oh,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":840.96,"endTime":845.16,"body":"that's off base. And so then I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":845.16,"endTime":849.0,"body":"started talking about fuzzy in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":845.16,"endTime":849.0,"body":"class, and it's actually been"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":849.0,"endTime":853.35,"body":"very helpful, both because more"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":849.0,"endTime":853.35,"body":"and more students are now saying"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":853.35,"endTime":856.65,"body":"to me, oh, yeah, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":853.35,"endTime":856.65,"body":"actually, I'm recognizing our"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":856.65,"endTime":861.51,"body":"church has been coming becoming"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":856.65,"endTime":861.51,"body":"increasingly fuzzy. And also it"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":861.51,"endTime":864.78,"body":"helps, because then I think"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":861.51,"endTime":864.78,"body":"there were people that, that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":864.78,"endTime":869.73,"body":"were nervous about leaving the,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":864.78,"endTime":869.73,"body":"you know, yeah, a bounded group"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":869.73,"endTime":874.02,"body":"has a sense of seriousness about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":869.73,"endTime":874.02,"body":"it. Like we take belief"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":874.02,"endTime":876.93,"body":"seriously, we take ethics"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":874.02,"endTime":876.93,"body":"seriously. And so they want to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":876.93,"endTime":879.78,"body":"be talked about centered, people"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":876.93,"endTime":879.78,"body":"would get nervous because they"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":879.78,"endTime":882.78,"body":"don't want to, they felt like"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":879.78,"endTime":882.78,"body":"they were letting go something"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":882.78,"endTime":887.22,"body":"serious. But what I observed now"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":882.78,"endTime":887.22,"body":"is when I talk about bounded and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":887.22,"endTime":890.76,"body":"then fuzzy, and people"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":887.22,"endTime":890.76,"body":"recognize, oh, yeah, he doesn't"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":890.76,"endTime":894.27,"body":"like fuzzy, which, which I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":890.76,"endTime":894.27,"body":"don't, then when I talk about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":894.27,"endTime":897.9,"body":"centered, then together we can"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":894.27,"endTime":897.9,"body":"say yeah, the problem is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":897.9,"endTime":901.92,"body":"fuzziness. Like we're both don't"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":897.9,"endTime":901.92,"body":"want to be fuzzy, but centered,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":902.55,"endTime":907.05,"body":"is not fuzzy. So, yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":902.55,"endTime":907.05,"body":"it's very helpful and important"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":907.08,"endTime":911.16,"body":"societally, today to talk about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":907.08,"endTime":911.16,"body":"fuzzy."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":911.76,"endTime":915.45,"body":"Yes, it's good."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":911.76,"endTime":915.45,"body":"But so then how then can we not"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":915.45,"endTime":920.82,"body":"be fuzzy? And how can we define"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":915.45,"endTime":920.82,"body":"a center? Find a center and be a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":920.82,"endTime":922.26,"body":"centers, people?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":922.98,"endTime":928.62,"body":"So, okay, so I, um,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":922.98,"endTime":928.62,"body":"yeah, so in my book, mostly what"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":928.62,"endTime":935.61,"body":"I advocate for is the importance"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":928.62,"endTime":935.61,"body":"of having a center ad, in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":935.61,"endTime":943.02,"body":"contrast to fuzzy. And I think"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":935.61,"endTime":943.02,"body":"defining the Center for a church"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":943.05,"endTime":947.91,"body":"is of utmost importance. So, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":943.05,"endTime":947.91,"body":"mean, if you noticed in our"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":947.91,"endTime":951.12,"body":"conversation right now, I said,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":947.91,"endTime":951.12,"body":"you know, center is Jesus. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":951.12,"endTime":956.52,"body":"so, yeah, I would hope that as"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":951.12,"endTime":956.52,"body":"Christians, followers of Jesus,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":956.55,"endTime":964.32,"body":"we could all agree, Jesus Christ"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":956.55,"endTime":964.32,"body":"is our center. But then after"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":964.32,"endTime":967.08,"body":"that, how to define you know, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":964.32,"endTime":967.08,"body":"think it's going to be very"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":967.08,"endTime":971.22,"body":"different, depending on your"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":967.08,"endTime":971.22,"body":"tradition, your church, whether"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":971.22,"endTime":974.55,"body":"you're, you know, an independent"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":971.22,"endTime":974.55,"body":"church, you're part of a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":974.55,"endTime":978.42,"body":"denomination, denomination"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":974.55,"endTime":978.42,"body":"that's, you know, fairly"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":978.42,"endTime":983.07,"body":"structured like Presbyterian,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":978.42,"endTime":983.07,"body":"or, you know, less structured"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":983.07,"endTime":988.05,"body":"Baptist or something. So, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":983.07,"endTime":988.05,"body":"don't, yeah, I actually don't"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":988.05,"endTime":992.88,"body":"give direction on how in your"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":988.05,"endTime":992.88,"body":"individual setting to define a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":992.88,"endTime":997.11,"body":"center. But acknowledge, it's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":992.88,"endTime":997.11,"body":"very important, and it's going"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":997.11,"endTime":999.87,"body":"to be different, and it will be"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":997.11,"endTime":999.87,"body":"more than Jesus. Right. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":999.87,"endTime":1004.13,"body":"that's the thing. So I can say,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":999.87,"endTime":1004.13,"body":"we do this corporately. But um,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1004.64,"endTime":1008.0,"body":"yeah, I mean, like, in the book,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1004.64,"endTime":1008.0,"body":"I say, for for one, for some"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1008.0,"endTime":1011.21,"body":"churches, you know, infant"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1008.0,"endTime":1011.21,"body":"baptism is part of their center"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1011.21,"endTime":1016.37,"body":"and for others, adult baptism is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1011.21,"endTime":1016.37,"body":"and, and so it's important for"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1016.37,"endTime":1021.83,"body":"you as a church to define what"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1016.37,"endTime":1021.83,"body":"that is why that is. And I think"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1021.83,"endTime":1024.68,"body":"both can be centered, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1021.83,"endTime":1024.68,"body":"the one to tell you, Oh, it"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1024.68,"endTime":1026.45,"body":"needs to be this or the other."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1083.78,"endTime":1086.81,"body":"So now, if we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1083.78,"endTime":1086.81,"body":"have a center, and the church"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1086.81,"endTime":1090.02,"body":"has to find a center, and we're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1086.81,"endTime":1090.02,"body":"there, it's it's around Jesus."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1090.02,"endTime":1093.08,"body":"And then our other principles"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1090.02,"endTime":1093.08,"body":"that we wanted to find out is,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1093.41,"endTime":1098.36,"body":"how does that affect the way"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1093.41,"endTime":1098.36,"body":"that we interact with the people"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1098.36,"endTime":1102.8899999999999,"body":"in our community? Or what we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1098.36,"endTime":1102.8899999999999,"body":"would say, in a bounded set"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1102.8899999999999,"endTime":1106.79,"body":"outside of our community? Yeah."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1102.8899999999999,"endTime":1106.79,"body":"How can we interact between the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1106.79,"endTime":1107.06,"body":"two?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1107.75,"endTime":1112.25,"body":"Okay, so that's a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1107.75,"endTime":1112.25,"body":"really good question. And part"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1112.25,"endTime":1119.81,"body":"of what I want to get out in the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1112.25,"endTime":1119.81,"body":"book is, these these paradigms,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1119.81,"endTime":1127.55,"body":"these concepts, they have power."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1119.81,"endTime":1127.55,"body":"And so in a bounded church, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1127.55,"endTime":1129.59,"body":"can say, you know, we're going"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1127.55,"endTime":1129.59,"body":"to really work at being"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1129.59,"endTime":1133.49,"body":"welcoming. We want people to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1129.59,"endTime":1133.49,"body":"feel welcome, and not judge, we"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1133.49,"endTime":1138.8899999999999,"body":"want to bring them in. But I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1133.49,"endTime":1138.8899999999999,"body":"would argue that the, the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1139.37,"endTime":1143.03,"body":"boundedness, the character of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1139.37,"endTime":1143.03,"body":"your boundedness, is going to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1143.21,"endTime":1146.9,"body":"trip you up, it's going to, it's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1143.21,"endTime":1146.9,"body":"going to seep out, and people"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1146.9,"endTime":1152.48,"body":"are going to feel it. And in the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1146.9,"endTime":1152.48,"body":"same way, a centered church, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1152.48,"endTime":1154.49,"body":"mean, hopefully, they would say"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1152.48,"endTime":1154.49,"body":"the same thing. Let's work at"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1154.49,"endTime":1161.42,"body":"being welcoming, but the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1154.49,"endTime":1161.42,"body":"paradigm itself will change your"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1161.42,"endTime":1166.61,"body":"stance towards outsiders. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1161.42,"endTime":1166.61,"body":"here's a key thing that I think"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1166.6399999999999,"endTime":1171.92,"body":"listeners could feel is in a, in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1166.6399999999999,"endTime":1171.92,"body":"a bounded church, where's my"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1171.92,"endTime":1177.2,"body":"security, my security is in the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1171.92,"endTime":1177.2,"body":"line. That's what is defining me"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1177.2,"endTime":1179.78,"body":"as being a good Christian,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1177.2,"endTime":1179.78,"body":"that's what make defines me as"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1179.78,"endTime":1185.84,"body":"being part of this group. And so"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1179.78,"endTime":1185.84,"body":"there is a natural tendency to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1185.87,"endTime":1189.98,"body":"guard the line to protect the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1185.87,"endTime":1189.98,"body":"line and and, and those of us"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1189.98,"endTime":1193.7,"body":"who have been in bounded"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1189.98,"endTime":1193.7,"body":"churches, you know, I'm sure as"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1193.73,"endTime":1196.19,"body":"you're listening to you can"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1193.73,"endTime":1196.19,"body":"identify with this, this sense"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1196.19,"endTime":1199.7,"body":"of even you know, talking about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1196.19,"endTime":1199.7,"body":"someone does something, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1199.7,"endTime":1202.25,"body":"know, believe something wrong,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1199.7,"endTime":1202.25,"body":"does something wrong, and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1202.25,"endTime":1205.07,"body":"there's this sense of, Well, we"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1202.25,"endTime":1205.07,"body":"need to do something, and part"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1205.07,"endTime":1207.86,"body":"of the reason we're doing"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1205.07,"endTime":1207.86,"body":"something is because we have to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1207.86,"endTime":1210.32,"body":"keep this standard, we have to,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1207.86,"endTime":1210.32,"body":"you know, take this seriously."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1210.35,"endTime":1215.51,"body":"Okay. And that, then that's what"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1210.35,"endTime":1215.51,"body":"I think people pick up on is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1215.54,"endTime":1221.45,"body":"this line, that they feel it in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1215.54,"endTime":1221.45,"body":"us, whereas in a centered"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1221.45,"endTime":1228.3799999999999,"body":"church, where's my security? My"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1221.45,"endTime":1228.3799999999999,"body":"security is in the center. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1228.3799999999999,"endTime":1233.96,"body":"that's not just that's not just"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1228.3799999999999,"endTime":1233.96,"body":"you know, that's not just a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1234.08,"endTime":1237.86,"body":"Christian statement. My center"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1234.08,"endTime":1237.86,"body":"is Jesus, which about a church"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1237.86,"endTime":1241.67,"body":"can say that as well. But if"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1237.86,"endTime":1241.67,"body":"you're in a center dynamic, your"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1241.67,"endTime":1245.24,"body":"security literally is in the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1241.67,"endTime":1245.24,"body":"center. That's what the church"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1245.24,"endTime":1248.6299999999999,"body":"is focused on. And that's how"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1245.24,"endTime":1248.6299999999999,"body":"it's defining who we are is by"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1248.6299999999999,"endTime":1252.23,"body":"looking at orientation. So what"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1248.6299999999999,"endTime":1252.23,"body":"that means is that when I'm when"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1252.23,"endTime":1258.26,"body":"I'm meeting with people on the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1252.23,"endTime":1258.26,"body":"outside, I'm not as nervous, I'm"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1258.26,"endTime":1265.7,"body":"not as uptight about these"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1258.26,"endTime":1265.7,"body":"boundary line issues, because I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1265.7,"endTime":1270.65,"body":"can we as a group, we can deal"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1265.7,"endTime":1270.65,"body":"with having some people amongst"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1270.65,"endTime":1277.58,"body":"us that are a bit messy, because"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1270.65,"endTime":1277.58,"body":"it doesn't affect my reputation,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1277.61,"endTime":1282.41,"body":"my security because my security"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1277.61,"endTime":1282.41,"body":"is in the center. So I think the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1282.41,"endTime":1288.74,"body":"dynamics themself leave to A,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1282.41,"endTime":1288.74,"body":"the dynamic of a centered church"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1288.77,"endTime":1296.15,"body":"leads to having a more relaxed,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1288.77,"endTime":1296.15,"body":"less judgmental stance towards"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1296.18,"endTime":1299.33,"body":"outsiders, even if you're not,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1296.18,"endTime":1299.33,"body":"you know, sort of talking"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1299.33,"endTime":1303.98,"body":"strategizing about anything that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1299.33,"endTime":1303.98,"body":"the dynamic itself will help in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1303.98,"endTime":1305.03,"body":"that direction."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1305.27,"endTime":1308.06,"body":"Yeah, as we're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1305.27,"endTime":1308.06,"body":"secure in our center, one of the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1308.06,"endTime":1312.1399999999999,"body":"things is, as you're talking at"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1308.06,"endTime":1312.1399999999999,"body":"this, actually, I thought that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1312.47,"endTime":1315.86,"body":"when we're interacting with"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1312.47,"endTime":1315.86,"body":"outsiders, one of the things we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1315.86,"endTime":1320.12,"body":"would be doing is helping people"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1315.86,"endTime":1320.12,"body":"encounter the center more than"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1320.12,"endTime":1326.06,"body":"give people information on how"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1320.12,"endTime":1326.06,"body":"they could be in or outs, where"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1326.06,"endTime":1330.1399999999999,"body":"we define our line. So it's a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1326.06,"endTime":1330.1399999999999,"body":"difference between information"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1330.17,"endTime":1333.1399999999999,"body":"and encounter of Jesus."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1333.74,"endTime":1335.78,"body":"Yeah, and that's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1333.74,"endTime":1335.78,"body":"where I've been going back to my"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1335.78,"endTime":1339.77,"body":"story, you know, I started out"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1335.78,"endTime":1339.77,"body":"with in Honduras, doing"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1339.8,"endTime":1346.04,"body":"evangelism, that was, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1339.8,"endTime":1346.04,"body":"a packet of information that I'd"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1346.04,"endTime":1349.1299999999999,"body":"grown up with and used and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1346.04,"endTime":1349.1299999999999,"body":"wasn't all bad. Right, right."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1349.1299999999999,"endTime":1352.7,"body":"Yeah, I'm not trashing, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1349.1299999999999,"endTime":1352.7,"body":"know, 15 years of, you know, pre"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1352.7,"endTime":1357.05,"body":"centered set church ministry."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1352.7,"endTime":1357.05,"body":"But what happens, then I came"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1357.05,"endTime":1362.6299999999999,"body":"to, I want people to meet Jesus,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1357.05,"endTime":1362.6299999999999,"body":"because they had this, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1362.6299999999999,"endTime":1365.96,"body":"such distorted view of God. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1362.6299999999999,"endTime":1365.96,"body":"so I don't know, that's not who"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1365.96,"endTime":1370.79,"body":"God is. Let's come to Jesus and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1365.96,"endTime":1370.79,"body":"let Jesus shape the way we view"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1370.82,"endTime":1374.45,"body":"God. So in a similar way, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1370.82,"endTime":1374.45,"body":"think in uncentered, church, it"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1374.45,"endTime":1381.26,"body":"is, yeah, we're bringing people"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1374.45,"endTime":1381.26,"body":"to Jesus, not just do these few"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1381.26,"endTime":1383.75,"body":"things to get across the line,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1381.26,"endTime":1383.75,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1384.02,"endTime":1386.81,"body":"And so in your,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1384.02,"endTime":1386.81,"body":"your research is you're talking"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1386.81,"endTime":1391.91,"body":"to people that are are centered"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1386.81,"endTime":1391.91,"body":"churches. What are some examples"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1391.91,"endTime":1393.44,"body":"of how people are doing that?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1394.1589999999999,"endTime":1398.359,"body":"Yeah, so And on that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1394.1589999999999,"endTime":1398.359,"body":"note, I want to make a little"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1398.359,"endTime":1403.009,"body":"bit, just make a book plug here"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1398.359,"endTime":1403.009,"body":"have like, what's distinct about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1403.009,"endTime":1408.019,"body":"this book. And so I am hardly"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1403.009,"endTime":1408.019,"body":"the only one talking about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1408.019,"endTime":1412.549,"body":"bounded centered churches, like"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1408.019,"endTime":1412.549,"body":"you can Google that and find,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1412.579,"endTime":1418.189,"body":"you know, podcast chapters and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1412.579,"endTime":1418.189,"body":"books, blog sermons. But there,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1418.249,"endTime":1422.539,"body":"there wasn't a resource out"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1418.249,"endTime":1422.539,"body":"there that talked about how to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1422.539,"endTime":1426.4089999999999,"body":"actually live this out. And my"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1422.539,"endTime":1426.4089999999999,"body":"students asked me questions, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1426.4089999999999,"endTime":1429.259,"body":"believe, what do I what do you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1426.4089999999999,"endTime":1429.259,"body":"do about church membership? Or,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1429.259,"endTime":1431.809,"body":"you know, there's this person in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1429.259,"endTime":1431.809,"body":"my church is doing this, how do"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1431.809,"endTime":1434.779,"body":"I deal with it in a centered"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1431.809,"endTime":1434.779,"body":"way, and there was no resource I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1434.779,"endTime":1438.019,"body":"could point them to. So what I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1434.779,"endTime":1438.019,"body":"did was I went out and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1438.019,"endTime":1444.379,"body":"interviewed over 40, people who,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1438.019,"endTime":1444.379,"body":"in various churches that were"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1444.4089999999999,"endTime":1447.889,"body":"working at living out this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1444.4089999999999,"endTime":1447.889,"body":"centered approach. And so you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1447.889,"endTime":1451.9089999999999,"body":"know, about half, maybe more,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1447.889,"endTime":1451.9089999999999,"body":"two thirds of the book is how to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1451.9089999999999,"endTime":1457.249,"body":"live this out. So some things, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1451.9089999999999,"endTime":1457.249,"body":"have a note here, too, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1457.249,"endTime":1460.969,"body":"I sort of thought that I would"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1457.249,"endTime":1460.969,"body":"go out and sort of get case"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1460.969,"endTime":1464.599,"body":"studies and then have, okay,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1460.969,"endTime":1464.599,"body":"this is the centered way to do"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1464.599,"endTime":1468.469,"body":"membership. And this is a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1464.599,"endTime":1468.469,"body":"centered way to deal with, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1468.469,"endTime":1472.039,"body":"know, a couple who aren't"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1468.469,"endTime":1472.039,"body":"married living together. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1472.039,"endTime":1475.639,"body":"this is the centered way to deal"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1472.039,"endTime":1475.639,"body":"with someone who's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1476.749,"endTime":1480.709,"body":"talking about some doctrinal"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1476.749,"endTime":1480.709,"body":"belief that's not in line with"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1480.709,"endTime":1487.969,"body":"yours. But what I quickly found"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1480.709,"endTime":1487.969,"body":"was, there's not a centered way"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1488.569,"endTime":1492.979,"body":"of doing things, because I would"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1488.569,"endTime":1492.979,"body":"hear stories from leaders"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1492.979,"endTime":1496.459,"body":"talking about the same"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1492.979,"endTime":1496.459,"body":"situation. And they did they"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1496.729,"endTime":1500.689,"body":"approach it differently. They"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1496.729,"endTime":1500.689,"body":"did, they did it differently. So"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1500.719,"endTime":1504.1689999999999,"body":"and I have lots of examples in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1500.719,"endTime":1504.1689999999999,"body":"the book. So you know, there are"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1504.1689999999999,"endTime":1507.709,"body":"examples of people, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1504.1689999999999,"endTime":1507.709,"body":"the Avid chapter or section or"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1507.739,"endTime":1511.699,"body":"chapter on church membership."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1507.739,"endTime":1511.699,"body":"And I have, you know, examples"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1511.699,"endTime":1515.239,"body":"from three different churches of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1511.699,"endTime":1515.239,"body":"how they do it. So the examples"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1515.239,"endTime":1520.789,"body":"are in there, but what I found"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1515.239,"endTime":1520.789,"body":"was its character and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1520.789,"endTime":1525.649,"body":"characteristics. So which"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1520.789,"endTime":1525.649,"body":"there's a chapter I talk about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1525.649,"endTime":1530.689,"body":"the qualities of Jesus. So what"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1525.649,"endTime":1530.689,"body":"I found was churches that were"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1530.959,"endTime":1538.219,"body":"centered. They're working with,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1530.959,"endTime":1538.219,"body":"you know, compassion, curiosity."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1538.219,"endTime":1541.6689999999999,"body":"So you know, something is wrong"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1538.219,"endTime":1541.6689999999999,"body":"in someone's life. They're off"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1541.849,"endTime":1544.249,"body":"in a bounded group. It's just"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1541.849,"endTime":1544.249,"body":"hey, you're on the wrong side of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1544.249,"endTime":1547.759,"body":"the line. We got to do"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1544.249,"endTime":1547.759,"body":"something, but in a centered,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1547.879,"endTime":1551.359,"body":"then they're asking they're"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1547.879,"endTime":1551.359,"body":"asking the why questions like"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1551.359,"endTime":1557.629,"body":"what's going on? So not just oh,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1551.359,"endTime":1557.629,"body":"we see this but well, Why what's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1557.629,"endTime":1561.499,"body":"going on? Let's dig deeper. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1557.629,"endTime":1561.499,"body":"then creativity. How do we"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1561.499,"endTime":1566.4189999999999,"body":"respond to this situation?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1561.499,"endTime":1566.4189999999999,"body":"What's the most loving way for"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1566.4189999999999,"endTime":1569.479,"body":"the person for the community?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1566.4189999999999,"endTime":1569.479,"body":"How do we orient them towards"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1569.479,"endTime":1575.149,"body":"the center? Creating a context,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1569.479,"endTime":1575.149,"body":"an environment of safety so that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1575.149,"endTime":1580.969,"body":"people feel they can talk about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1575.149,"endTime":1580.969,"body":"their things and trust in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1580.969,"endTime":1589.129,"body":"humility, trust in God, that the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1580.969,"endTime":1589.129,"body":"God will work in in people's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1589.189,"endTime":1593.809,"body":"lives? So I'm not sure even I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1589.189,"endTime":1593.809,"body":"don't remember exactly the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1593.809,"endTime":1595.759,"body":"question. So react?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1597.109,"endTime":1598.849,"body":"No, I think"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1597.109,"endTime":1598.849,"body":"that's really helpful. Because"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1598.9089999999999,"endTime":1602.839,"body":"one of the things is you're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1598.9089999999999,"endTime":1602.839,"body":"talking about is that how do we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1602.839,"endTime":1606.1689999999999,"body":"actually interact with people"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1602.839,"endTime":1606.1689999999999,"body":"when we want to actually point"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1606.1689999999999,"endTime":1609.379,"body":"them towards Jesus help them"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1606.1689999999999,"endTime":1609.379,"body":"encounter Jesus, you're talking"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1609.379,"endTime":1614.209,"body":"about compassion, curiosity,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1609.379,"endTime":1614.209,"body":"creativity, if you're talking"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1614.209,"endTime":1617.539,"body":"about these characteristics,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1614.209,"endTime":1617.539,"body":"that's really helpful for people"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1617.539,"endTime":1621.859,"body":"to to grab a hold of, rather"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1617.539,"endTime":1621.859,"body":"than this is the, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1621.859,"endTime":1626.389,"body":"set 123 way. And I think it's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1621.859,"endTime":1626.389,"body":"the same thing where you know,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1626.389,"endTime":1630.889,"body":"the set 123 way is like, here's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1626.389,"endTime":1630.889,"body":"the line, we don't want to, you"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1630.889,"endTime":1634.819,"body":"could be in or out, right? So"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1630.889,"endTime":1634.819,"body":"these characteristics are really"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1634.849,"endTime":1638.929,"body":"important. And I think part of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1634.849,"endTime":1638.929,"body":"curiosity, what that does is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1638.929,"endTime":1642.199,"body":"that I think it helps people"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1638.929,"endTime":1642.199,"body":"feel like they're not judged."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1642.439,"endTime":1647.599,"body":"Right? When I you know, for"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1642.439,"endTime":1647.599,"body":"example, if I was, I'm in a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1647.599,"endTime":1650.989,"body":"discipleship group. So I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1647.599,"endTime":1650.989,"body":"remember when I was in a senior"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1650.989,"endTime":1653.4189999999999,"body":"in high school, I was in a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1650.989,"endTime":1653.4189999999999,"body":"discipleship group, you know,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1653.4189999999999,"endTime":1657.949,"body":"there was, you know, three other"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1653.4189999999999,"endTime":1657.949,"body":"guys, and we had a mentor, and I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1658.039,"endTime":1663.259,"body":"confessed my sin, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1658.039,"endTime":1663.259,"body":"was doing something I shouldn't"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1663.259,"endTime":1666.619,"body":"be doing as students something"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1663.259,"endTime":1666.619,"body":"wrong. And I didn't get any"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1666.619,"endTime":1670.609,"body":"curiosity. I didn't get any"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1666.619,"endTime":1670.609,"body":"questions of why. All I got was"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1670.609,"endTime":1675.439,"body":"a look like, you're not in the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1670.609,"endTime":1675.439,"body":"group right now. Like you are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1675.439,"endTime":1680.989,"body":"not in our line, like, you need"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1675.439,"endTime":1680.989,"body":"to go back and cross this line,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1680.989,"endTime":1684.469,"body":"or else we don't want to be"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1680.989,"endTime":1684.469,"body":"around you. And it actually"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1684.469,"endTime":1688.819,"body":"disempowered me from being a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1684.469,"endTime":1688.819,"body":"part of that community. I didn't"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1688.819,"endTime":1691.249,"body":"want to be a part of that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1688.819,"endTime":1691.249,"body":"community anymore. Because I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1691.249,"endTime":1696.379,"body":"felt like I was shunned. And I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1691.249,"endTime":1696.379,"body":"was shamed into something"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1757.359,"endTime":1763.329,"body":"instead of being asked, Why,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1757.359,"endTime":1763.329,"body":"what's why did that happen? And"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1763.329,"endTime":1765.969,"body":"then that actually couldn't"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1763.329,"endTime":1765.969,"body":"reorient me to the center. But"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1765.969,"endTime":1767.079,"body":"it didn't happen that way."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1768.88,"endTime":1770.08,"body":"As a great example."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1771.49,"endTime":1776.08,"body":"And so for me,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1771.49,"endTime":1776.08,"body":"you know, I felt a toxic shame,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1776.11,"endTime":1781.24,"body":"right? I felt like I couldn't be"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1776.11,"endTime":1781.24,"body":"a part of that. You talk a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1781.24,"endTime":1786.91,"body":"little bit about reintegrate of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1781.24,"endTime":1786.91,"body":"shame in your book, as opposed"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1786.91,"endTime":1790.15,"body":"to disintegrate of shame. And I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1786.91,"endTime":1790.15,"body":"felt, I think, a little"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1790.15,"endTime":1795.04,"body":"disintegrated of shame. But as a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1790.15,"endTime":1795.04,"body":"culture, we, we, you know, with"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1795.04,"endTime":1799.45,"body":"Brene Brown and talking about"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1795.04,"endTime":1799.45,"body":"eliminating shame, we think"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1799.45,"endTime":1805.96,"body":"shame is all bad. But Jesus use"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1799.45,"endTime":1805.96,"body":"shame to integrate people. How"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1805.96,"endTime":1808.87,"body":"did you see that in a centered"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1805.96,"endTime":1808.87,"body":"way?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1809.71,"endTime":1814.96,"body":"Yeah, so and this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1809.71,"endTime":1814.96,"body":"goes back to my previous book"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1814.96,"endTime":1820.69,"body":"that I co authored, co authored"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1814.96,"endTime":1820.69,"body":"with? Jason georgeous. And one"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1820.69,"endTime":1823.72,"body":"of the things we wrestled with"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1820.69,"endTime":1823.72,"body":"there is, and so you're thinking"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1823.72,"endTime":1829.09,"body":"about, you know, in a context of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1823.72,"endTime":1829.09,"body":"mission in an in an honor,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1829.09,"endTime":1832.45,"body":"shame, culture, or a context"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1829.09,"endTime":1832.45,"body":"where honor and shame is more"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1832.45,"endTime":1837.91,"body":"pronounced it Yeah. And Jason"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1832.45,"endTime":1837.91,"body":"especially made it very strong"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1837.91,"endTime":1843.43,"body":"convictions of challenging that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1837.91,"endTime":1843.43,"body":"sense that shame is always bad."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1843.73,"endTime":1848.77,"body":"And, and my line about it was,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1843.73,"endTime":1848.77,"body":"yeah, I mean, there are things"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1848.8,"endTime":1855.76,"body":"that are shameful. So even going"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1848.8,"endTime":1855.76,"body":"back to your story, it's not to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1855.76,"endTime":1859.75,"body":"say, oh, what you did? No,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1855.76,"endTime":1859.75,"body":"there's no shame in that. It. It"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1859.78,"endTime":1863.32,"body":"very well may have been"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1859.78,"endTime":1863.32,"body":"something that is shameful. But"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1863.32,"endTime":1869.17,"body":"then there's two ways or two"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1863.32,"endTime":1869.17,"body":"general ways of responding to a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1869.17,"endTime":1876.31,"body":"shameful thing. So things are"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1869.17,"endTime":1876.31,"body":"shameful. But is is the intent"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1877.39,"endTime":1887.23,"body":"of the community to restore the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1877.39,"endTime":1887.23,"body":"person or is it to use that shun"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1887.26,"endTime":1894.73,"body":"or you know, to in some way"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1887.26,"endTime":1894.73,"body":"label them to Yeah, to put the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1894.73,"endTime":1900.37,"body":"focus on they have become bad"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1894.73,"endTime":1900.37,"body":"damaged excetera. And so I think"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1901.36,"endTime":1909.07,"body":"very clearly, Jesus practiced re"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1901.36,"endTime":1909.07,"body":"in reintegrated shaming. And I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1909.07,"endTime":1912.13,"body":"think this in both both ways,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1909.07,"endTime":1912.13,"body":"and so you think there were"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1912.13,"endTime":1916.15,"body":"times and yeah, it's it could"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1912.13,"endTime":1916.15,"body":"sound harsh if you just think"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1916.15,"endTime":1921.43,"body":"shaming is always bad, but Jesus"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1916.15,"endTime":1921.43,"body":"at timed, shamed people. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1921.43,"endTime":1925.27,"body":"I think of, you know, when when"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1921.43,"endTime":1925.27,"body":"Jesus was in the house of Simon"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1925.27,"endTime":1930.7,"body":"the Pharisee, he said, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1925.27,"endTime":1930.7,"body":"since the time I came in, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1930.7,"endTime":1935.71,"body":"did not know, since I came, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1930.7,"endTime":1935.71,"body":"did not wash my feet, you did"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1935.71,"endTime":1940.84,"body":"not greet me with the kiss. But"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1935.71,"endTime":1940.84,"body":"since the time I've come in this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1940.84,"endTime":1944.41,"body":"woman has been bathing my feet,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1940.84,"endTime":1944.41,"body":"she has done this. I mean, that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1944.41,"endTime":1951.82,"body":"is a shaming move towards Simon."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1944.41,"endTime":1951.82,"body":"So there are times when when"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1951.82,"endTime":1956.17,"body":"Jesus actively shamed and then"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1951.82,"endTime":1956.17,"body":"but it's really integrative. He"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1956.17,"endTime":1959.14,"body":"didn't then I mean, he could"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1956.17,"endTime":1959.14,"body":"have gotten on much worse and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1959.14,"endTime":1962.35,"body":"said, well, in house, someone"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1959.14,"endTime":1962.35,"body":"like you in this town, even"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1962.35,"endTime":1964.72,"body":"doing this kind of thing. This"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1962.35,"endTime":1964.72,"body":"is, I'm out of here, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1964.72,"endTime":1969.79,"body":"so he is seeking to bring Simon"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1964.72,"endTime":1969.79,"body":"in, but then also reintegrated"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1969.79,"endTime":1975.67,"body":"shaming Jesus repeatedly is with"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1969.79,"endTime":1975.67,"body":"people who have done shameful"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1975.67,"endTime":1978.55,"body":"things, even in that moment with"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1975.67,"endTime":1978.55,"body":"this woman who's crying at his"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1978.55,"endTime":1983.44,"body":"feet. But what's he do is he"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1978.55,"endTime":1983.44,"body":"seeks to restore them, bring"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1983.44,"endTime":1988.66,"body":"them back into the community tax"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1983.44,"endTime":1988.66,"body":"collectors and centers. As he I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1988.66,"endTime":1991.84,"body":"have in the in the book,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1988.66,"endTime":1991.84,"body":"actually, in both books, the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1991.84,"endTime":1995.8,"body":"honor shame book and centered"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1991.84,"endTime":1995.8,"body":"set Church, I work with Luke 15."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1996.16,"endTime":2001.35,"body":"And the you know, the father in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":1996.16,"endTime":2001.35,"body":"the parable, the prodigal son,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2001.38,"endTime":2007.05,"body":"as an example of this, as Bree"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2001.38,"endTime":2007.05,"body":"integrating this, the intention"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2007.05,"endTime":2013.74,"body":"is to bring both sons back into"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2007.05,"endTime":2013.74,"body":"relationship. So, and I think,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2013.77,"endTime":2017.4,"body":"you know, in in Galatians, two,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2013.77,"endTime":2017.4,"body":"I mean, six one, Paul says, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2017.4,"endTime":2020.25,"body":"know, those of you are"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2017.4,"endTime":2020.25,"body":"spiritual, you know, so to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2020.25,"endTime":2026.49,"body":"confront the sin, but to restore"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2020.25,"endTime":2026.49,"body":"to bring them in with kindness"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2026.49,"endTime":2033.03,"body":"with gentleness. And again, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2026.49,"endTime":2033.03,"body":"think that is much more possible"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2033.03,"endTime":2040.8,"body":"in a centered church. Because"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2033.03,"endTime":2040.8,"body":"there is the emotional space for"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2040.92,"endTime":2050.3399999999997,"body":"us to say to the Yeah, the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2040.92,"endTime":2050.3399999999997,"body":"teenage Joshua, to say, Okay,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2050.3399999999997,"endTime":2053.0699999999997,"body":"what's going on? Why is this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2050.3399999999997,"endTime":2053.0699999999997,"body":"because we don't have to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2053.0699999999997,"endTime":2056.16,"body":"immediately get oh, no, what"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2053.0699999999997,"endTime":2056.16,"body":"about our line? So?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2056.73,"endTime":2059.25,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2056.73,"endTime":2059.25,"body":"very helpful. That's good, you"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2059.25,"endTime":2063.2999999999997,"body":"know, and we're getting to this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2059.25,"endTime":2063.2999999999997,"body":"place, even in America, we're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2063.2999999999997,"endTime":2069.18,"body":"getting very multicultural. And"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2063.2999999999997,"endTime":2069.18,"body":"we're interacting a lot with"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2069.18,"endTime":2072.6,"body":"people, you know, from guilt,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2069.18,"endTime":2072.6,"body":"innocence, culture, background,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2072.87,"endTime":2077.0699999999997,"body":"from honor, shame backgrounds,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2072.87,"endTime":2077.0699999999997,"body":"how can we actually be be"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2077.0699999999997,"endTime":2082.68,"body":"centered and integrates"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2077.0699999999997,"endTime":2082.68,"body":"difference? different worldviews"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2082.68,"endTime":2085.71,"body":"and thoughts about you know,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2082.68,"endTime":2085.71,"body":"guilt, innocence, honor, shame,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2086.37,"endTime":2087.5699999999997,"body":"in a centered set?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2089.8489999999997,"endTime":2093.3289999999997,"body":"Okay. That's a big"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2089.8489999999997,"endTime":2093.3289999999997,"body":"question. It"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2093.33,"endTime":2094.0499999999997,"body":"is a good"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2093.33,"endTime":2094.0499999999997,"body":"question."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2094.049,"endTime":2100.979,"body":"Let me think of a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2094.049,"endTime":2100.979,"body":"couple of short responses. So,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2101.399,"endTime":2104.3089999999997,"body":"so first of all, thinking, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2101.399,"endTime":2104.3089999999997,"body":"know, in an honor, shame,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2104.819,"endTime":2110.579,"body":"culture or for people from that."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2104.819,"endTime":2110.579,"body":"Now, let me start the other"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2110.579,"endTime":2115.109,"body":"side. So we could talk about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2110.579,"endTime":2115.109,"body":"honor shame cultures or guilt,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2115.109,"endTime":2119.219,"body":"innocence cultures, but shame is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2115.109,"endTime":2119.219,"body":"everywhere, right? So it's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2119.9990000000003,"endTime":2124.949,"body":"whether I am you know, as"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2119.9990000000003,"endTime":2124.949,"body":"individualistic guilt innocent"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2125.009,"endTime":2132.929,"body":"as possible. I still experienced"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2125.009,"endTime":2132.929,"body":"shame. And so in that sense, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2132.929,"endTime":2139.289,"body":"think a, it is of much greater"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2132.929,"endTime":2139.289,"body":"importance than an honor shame"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2139.289,"endTime":2143.399,"body":"culture to be talking about the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2139.289,"endTime":2143.399,"body":"gospel in terms of shame, but I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2143.399,"endTime":2149.4590000000003,"body":"think, an honor, but I think"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2143.399,"endTime":2149.4590000000003,"body":"anywhere, to preach sermons that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2149.4590000000003,"endTime":2154.559,"body":"are to do Bible studies,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2149.4590000000003,"endTime":2154.559,"body":"pastoral counseling, that is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2154.589,"endTime":2161.2490000000003,"body":"shame releasing is a positive"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2154.589,"endTime":2161.2490000000003,"body":"thing and and should be part of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2161.2490000000003,"endTime":2170.789,"body":"a centered church. A significant"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2161.2490000000003,"endTime":2170.789,"body":"difference between shame issues"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2170.819,"endTime":2175.049,"body":"in a guilt innocent culture and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2170.819,"endTime":2175.049,"body":"an honor, shame culture, is that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2175.049,"endTime":2178.949,"body":"in an honor, shame context, it's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2175.049,"endTime":2178.949,"body":"much more it's much it's more"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2178.949,"endTime":2185.129,"body":"strongly a collective sense."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2178.949,"endTime":2185.129,"body":"It's our shame. So it's not so"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2185.129,"endTime":2189.029,"body":"for me individualistic, like"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2185.129,"endTime":2189.029,"body":"it's about me, what are people"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2189.029,"endTime":2193.319,"body":"going to think of me? But you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2189.029,"endTime":2193.319,"body":"know, in an honor, shame,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2193.349,"endTime":2196.259,"body":"content and honor shame culture,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2193.349,"endTime":2196.259,"body":"it'd be much more likely what"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2196.259,"endTime":2202.079,"body":"are people going to think of my"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2196.259,"endTime":2202.079,"body":"family, my tribe, you know, my"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2202.079,"endTime":2206.639,"body":"country. So that corporate"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2202.079,"endTime":2206.639,"body":"thing, so Okay, so now to an"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2206.639,"endTime":2213.839,"body":"honor to centered set church"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2206.639,"endTime":2213.839,"body":"then I think in the honor shame"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2213.839,"endTime":2219.749,"body":"context it it is you got very"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2213.839,"endTime":2219.749,"body":"much overlapping. And then in,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2219.779,"endTime":2222.479,"body":"you know whether you're bounded"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2219.779,"endTime":2222.479,"body":"or centered, if you're in an"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2222.479,"endTime":2226.769,"body":"honor shame context, it's about,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2222.479,"endTime":2226.769,"body":"you know, the group definition."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2228.539,"endTime":2233.849,"body":"But what? So and that's where I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2228.539,"endTime":2233.849,"body":"think it's very important, like"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2233.849,"endTime":2238.079,"body":"group identity is important. So"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2233.849,"endTime":2238.079,"body":"we're not, we're not saying, Oh,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2238.079,"endTime":2241.499,"body":"this whole thing of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2238.079,"endTime":2241.499,"body":"this group being so, so intense"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2241.529,"endTime":2245.069,"body":"about who's in and who's out and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2241.529,"endTime":2245.069,"body":"who they are. No, we just want"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2245.069,"endTime":2251.549,"body":"to give them different tools,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2245.069,"endTime":2251.549,"body":"ways of thinking about that,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2251.969,"endTime":2259.139,"body":"which has space for, as I said,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2251.969,"endTime":2259.139,"body":"before, a bit more. messiness."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2259.169,"endTime":2264.419,"body":"So I think, in the guilt"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2259.169,"endTime":2264.419,"body":"innocence, individually centered"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2264.419,"endTime":2270.809,"body":"set Church is very important,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2264.419,"endTime":2270.809,"body":"because it enables dealing with"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2270.839,"endTime":2274.949,"body":"shame in a less toxic way. And I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2270.839,"endTime":2274.949,"body":"think in an honor, shame,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2274.949,"endTime":2278.909,"body":"culture centered set is very"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2274.949,"endTime":2278.909,"body":"important for that reason, but"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2278.909,"endTime":2286.889,"body":"also for, for enabling a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2278.909,"endTime":2286.889,"body":"community, a group, to be able"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2287.399,"endTime":2292.379,"body":"to still have standards of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2287.399,"endTime":2292.379,"body":"what's honorable, but to do it"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2293.009,"endTime":2300.269,"body":"in a less yet in a less toxic,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2293.009,"endTime":2300.269,"body":"judgmental, or yet"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2300.269,"endTime":2303.299,"body":"disintegrative shaming kind of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2300.269,"endTime":2303.299,"body":"way, but I don't know, what do"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2303.299,"endTime":2305.549,"body":"you think you have more"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2303.299,"endTime":2305.549,"body":"experience than I do."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2306.12,"endTime":2307.95,"body":"But one of the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2306.12,"endTime":2307.95,"body":"things I want to know is how,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2307.98,"endTime":2311.73,"body":"you know, in this is we're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2307.98,"endTime":2311.73,"body":"working together in this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2311.73,"endTime":2315.21,"body":"multicultural setting, and an"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2311.73,"endTime":2315.21,"body":"honor shame culture, people are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2315.21,"endTime":2320.46,"body":"really, they don't want to shame"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2315.21,"endTime":2320.46,"body":"the group. So say, as a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2320.64,"endTime":2323.28,"body":"leadership team in an"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2320.64,"endTime":2323.28,"body":"organization, they don't want to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2323.28,"endTime":2326.31,"body":"shame the organization. So if"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2323.28,"endTime":2326.31,"body":"somebody does something that is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2326.31,"endTime":2331.02,"body":"shameful, that needs to be"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2326.31,"endTime":2331.02,"body":"reoriented towards the center,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2332.55,"endTime":2337.74,"body":"some of it, they're going to, if"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2332.55,"endTime":2337.74,"body":"they're an honor, shame, they're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2337.74,"endTime":2341.94,"body":"going to say, I am going to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2337.74,"endTime":2341.94,"body":"protect the image of the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2341.94,"endTime":2346.41,"body":"organization at all costs. And"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2341.94,"endTime":2346.41,"body":"so we actually don't want to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2346.41,"endTime":2351.48,"body":"talk about the shame, we don't"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2346.41,"endTime":2351.48,"body":"want to talk about how we were"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2351.48,"endTime":2355.14,"body":"going to reorient somebody,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2351.48,"endTime":2355.14,"body":"sometimes we even want to just"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2355.44,"endTime":2359.85,"body":"cut off the shame and let them"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2355.44,"endTime":2359.85,"body":"go, and so that we could protect"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2360.36,"endTime":2365.88,"body":"this organization. I think if if"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2360.36,"endTime":2365.88,"body":"an organization wants to be"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2365.88,"endTime":2370.8,"body":"healthier and be centered on"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2365.88,"endTime":2370.8,"body":"Jesus, there has to be some some"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2370.8,"endTime":2376.2,"body":"talk. So I may be coming from a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2370.8,"endTime":2376.2,"body":"a Western worldview, guilt"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2376.2,"endTime":2380.7,"body":"innocence, that we need to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2376.2,"endTime":2380.7,"body":"actually talk about the shame so"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2380.7,"endTime":2384.84,"body":"that we as a community and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2380.7,"endTime":2384.84,"body":"organization can move forward"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2384.84,"endTime":2388.32,"body":"towards the center ourselves."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2384.84,"endTime":2388.32,"body":"And if we don't talk about it,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2388.59,"endTime":2393.27,"body":"we may be we may be fuzzy. We"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2388.59,"endTime":2393.27,"body":"may not know how to get back to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2393.27,"endTime":2396.72,"body":"the center, and we may veer off"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2393.27,"endTime":2396.72,"body":"course for a long time."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2398.49,"endTime":2404.58,"body":"Yeah, I as you're"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2398.49,"endTime":2404.58,"body":"talking. I think another element"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2405.24,"endTime":2412.83,"body":"in this is that what is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2405.24,"endTime":2412.83,"body":"honorable gets redefined as"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2412.83,"endTime":2418.47,"body":"Jesus followers and as a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2412.83,"endTime":2418.47,"body":"centered set Church. So again, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2418.47,"endTime":2421.89,"body":"was just thinking of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2418.47,"endTime":2421.89,"body":"Paul, in this tension in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2421.89,"endTime":2428.28,"body":"Galatians, with these young"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2421.89,"endTime":2428.28,"body":"Jewish Christians are showing up"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2428.28,"endTime":2430.77,"body":"in Galatia town though we need"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2428.28,"endTime":2430.77,"body":"to be doing these Jewish"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2430.77,"endTime":2436.35,"body":"practices. And notice that Paul"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2430.77,"endTime":2436.35,"body":"doesn't get into arguments about"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2436.35,"endTime":2439.02,"body":"the practices themselves. He"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2436.35,"endTime":2439.02,"body":"doesn't say, oh, no, it's not"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2439.02,"endTime":2442.41,"body":"circumcision. It's this. No,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2439.02,"endTime":2442.41,"body":"it's, you know, tithes and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2442.41,"endTime":2449.52,"body":"offerings. But what he gets at"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2442.41,"endTime":2449.52,"body":"is, this is not who we are in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2449.64,"endTime":2453.12,"body":"Jesus. It's not I mean, this is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2449.64,"endTime":2453.12,"body":"my language, but it's not this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2453.15,"endTime":2460.56,"body":"in out game. So what becomes"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2453.15,"endTime":2460.56,"body":"honorable? So yeah, the other"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2460.59,"endTime":2463.38,"body":"the other leaders, they're still"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2460.59,"endTime":2463.38,"body":"I mean, they're in an honor,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2463.38,"endTime":2465.93,"body":"shame context. And they're what"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2463.38,"endTime":2465.93,"body":"I would say working with a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2465.93,"endTime":2469.71,"body":"bounded paradigm. Yeah. And so"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2465.93,"endTime":2469.71,"body":"their definition of what's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2469.74,"endTime":2476.1,"body":"honorable is doing these"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2469.74,"endTime":2476.1,"body":"appropriate behaviors. Now, Paul"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2476.1,"endTime":2480.03,"body":"isn't necessarily even against"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2476.1,"endTime":2480.03,"body":"those behaviors, but what he's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2480.03,"endTime":2485.7,"body":"against is using those behaviors"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2480.03,"endTime":2485.7,"body":"to judge others. So I think in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2485.7,"endTime":2490.68,"body":"an honors in people from honor"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2485.7,"endTime":2490.68,"body":"shame contexts, we need to be in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2490.68,"endTime":2495.45,"body":"a centered set Church we need to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2490.68,"endTime":2495.45,"body":"be working at redefining what is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2495.45,"endTime":2501.9,"body":"honorable and part of what is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2495.45,"endTime":2501.9,"body":"honorable is not playing, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2501.9,"endTime":2507.75,"body":"know, one upmanship games, not"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2501.9,"endTime":2507.75,"body":"not being not viewing ourselves"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2507.75,"endTime":2513.36,"body":"as competitive but recognizing"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2507.75,"endTime":2513.36,"body":"in Jesus through Jesus in God's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2513.36,"endTime":2521.64,"body":"family. That's what brings us"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2513.36,"endTime":2521.64,"body":"together? Because Because yeah,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2521.64,"endTime":2525.81,"body":"because that sense of the the in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2521.64,"endTime":2525.81,"body":"mountainous and define in the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2525.81,"endTime":2532.23,"body":"lines and definitions, our group"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2525.81,"endTime":2532.23,"body":"is a very, very strong thing. So"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2532.32,"endTime":2537.57,"body":"I think it's true. A challenge"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2532.32,"endTime":2537.57,"body":"to that we can we can have our"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2537.57,"endTime":2540.84,"body":"security something else and we"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2537.57,"endTime":2540.84,"body":"are called to live in a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2540.84,"endTime":2542.1,"body":"countercultural way."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2542.189,"endTime":2544.979,"body":"Yeah. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2542.189,"endTime":2544.979,"body":"that's good. I really like that."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2545.729,"endTime":2548.429,"body":"You know, is there anything that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2545.729,"endTime":2548.429,"body":"really surprised you while doing"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2548.429,"endTime":2550.139,"body":"your research for for this book?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2551.31,"endTime":2555.93,"body":"Um, yes. So, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2551.31,"endTime":2555.93,"body":"it just came to my mind"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2555.96,"endTime":2558.18,"body":"immediately, maybe as I'm"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2555.96,"endTime":2558.18,"body":"talking, I'll think of something"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2558.18,"endTime":2561.27,"body":"else. But so one thing, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2558.18,"endTime":2561.27,"body":"know, over the years, when I've"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2561.27,"endTime":2565.38,"body":"talked about, bounded and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2561.27,"endTime":2565.38,"body":"centered, a common thing that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2565.38,"endTime":2568.38,"body":"people would say, to me is, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2565.38,"endTime":2568.38,"body":"know, I really like centered,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2568.38,"endTime":2572.07,"body":"but there just are times where"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2568.38,"endTime":2572.07,"body":"you have to be bounded. And so"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2572.07,"endTime":2576.0,"body":"common examples they would say,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2572.07,"endTime":2576.0,"body":"was in, you'd like maybe in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2576.0,"endTime":2579.63,"body":"children's ministry, or because"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2576.0,"endTime":2579.63,"body":"of their, you know, stages of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2579.63,"endTime":2582.78,"body":"learning, or, you know, recovery"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2579.63,"endTime":2582.78,"body":"ministry, like with addiction,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2582.78,"endTime":2588.87,"body":"you just have to be bounded with"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2582.78,"endTime":2588.87,"body":"people. So I knew in my book, if"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2588.87,"endTime":2591.69,"body":"I was going to have a compelling"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2588.87,"endTime":2591.69,"body":"argument, I needed to have a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2591.69,"endTime":2598.23,"body":"centered example of recovery"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2591.69,"endTime":2598.23,"body":"ministry. So I found someone"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2598.23,"endTime":2602.4,"body":"here in Fresno through through a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2598.23,"endTime":2602.4,"body":"former student who was involved"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2602.4,"endTime":2604.89,"body":"in recovery ministry, and was"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2602.4,"endTime":2604.89,"body":"passionate about centered"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2604.89,"endTime":2609.45,"body":"approach. And so what I want you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2604.89,"endTime":2609.45,"body":"to feel here is how I'm on"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2609.45,"endTime":2613.65,"body":"entering into this discussion."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2609.45,"endTime":2613.65,"body":"So I'm entering in, I'm needing"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2613.65,"endTime":2618.75,"body":"to show that centered works as"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2613.65,"endTime":2618.75,"body":"well as bounded in recovery, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2618.75,"endTime":2621.21,"body":"know, addiction kind of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2618.75,"endTime":2621.21,"body":"ministry. So that's what I'm"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2621.21,"endTime":2624.81,"body":"thinking. So I sit down with it"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2621.21,"endTime":2624.81,"body":"with the, with the interviewer,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2625.23,"endTime":2627.78,"body":"hoping for that, like, I need"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2625.23,"endTime":2627.78,"body":"something to show that this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2627.78,"endTime":2632.55,"body":"works as well. And yeah, and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2627.78,"endTime":2632.55,"body":"this is in the book, Dave OB"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2632.55,"endTime":2637.41,"body":"wall, and he starts talking to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2632.55,"endTime":2637.41,"body":"me, and he is so passionate"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2637.41,"endTime":2641.88,"body":"about the Senate approach, that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2637.41,"endTime":2641.88,"body":"it is not at all that oh, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2641.88,"endTime":2645.33,"body":"Mark, I can show you how it's as"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2641.88,"endTime":2645.33,"body":"good. He starts talking about I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2645.33,"endTime":2652.17,"body":"did it in a bounded way. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2645.33,"endTime":2652.17,"body":"now, the centered way is so much"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2652.17,"endTime":2656.37,"body":"better. And so I was surprised,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2652.17,"endTime":2656.37,"body":"right? And I, you know, I'm the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2656.37,"endTime":2660.03,"body":"the center set advocate, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2656.37,"endTime":2660.03,"body":"know, and but here's this guy"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2660.03,"endTime":2663.66,"body":"that is showing me is is, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2660.03,"endTime":2663.66,"body":"know, going beyond my"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2663.66,"endTime":2668.43,"body":"expectations, not just if it's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2663.66,"endTime":2668.43,"body":"good, like this is much better."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2669.0,"endTime":2673.86,"body":"So that was a moment of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2669.0,"endTime":2673.86,"body":"surprise. And then I think,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2675.12,"endTime":2679.47,"body":"yeah, not shocking surprise. But"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2675.12,"endTime":2679.47,"body":"but the what I already mentioned"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2679.47,"endTime":2684.06,"body":"that sense of oh, there is great"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2679.47,"endTime":2684.06,"body":"diversity and ways of doing"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2684.06,"endTime":2689.16,"body":"things in a centered way. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2684.06,"endTime":2689.16,"body":"that was, that was a bit of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2689.19,"endTime":2695.25,"body":"reorientation, for me in doing"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2689.19,"endTime":2695.25,"body":"the book, then I would just say,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2695.31,"endTime":2698.16,"body":"you know, lots of little"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2695.31,"endTime":2698.16,"body":"surprises just in listening to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2698.16,"endTime":2702.87,"body":"people's stories that were very"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2698.16,"endTime":2702.87,"body":"encouraging."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2703.35,"endTime":2707.4,"body":"So if you, if"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2703.35,"endTime":2707.4,"body":"somebody is listening and say, I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2707.4,"endTime":2710.13,"body":"actually want to take a step"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2707.4,"endTime":2710.13,"body":"towards becoming more centered"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2710.88,"endTime":2715.32,"body":"than we are as individual, as a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2710.88,"endTime":2715.32,"body":"community, as a church, what are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2715.32,"endTime":2719.67,"body":"some steps you think that people"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2715.32,"endTime":2719.67,"body":"should take to orient themselves"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2719.67,"endTime":2720.78,"body":"towards center?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2721.29,"endTime":2726.78,"body":"Okay, so, first of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2721.29,"endTime":2726.78,"body":"all, I think it's, and I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2726.78,"endTime":2728.79,"body":"appreciate the way you ask the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2726.78,"endTime":2728.79,"body":"question, I think it's very"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2728.79,"endTime":2734.58,"body":"important that an individual"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2728.79,"endTime":2734.58,"body":"cannot do this on their own. So,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2734.82,"endTime":2738.36,"body":"you know, if I'm the pastor, or"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2734.82,"endTime":2738.36,"body":"I'm the leader, the small group,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2738.69,"endTime":2742.11,"body":"you can't just read my book, and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2738.69,"endTime":2742.11,"body":"then say, Okay, I'm going to do"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2742.11,"endTime":2747.9,"body":"this, because you need a shared"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2742.11,"endTime":2747.9,"body":"understanding. And I would say,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2747.9,"endTime":2753.69,"body":"eat the shared language is very"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2747.9,"endTime":2753.69,"body":"helpful. Yeah. So, so one step"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2753.72,"endTime":2762.51,"body":"is to bring others on board, to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2753.72,"endTime":2762.51,"body":"understanding these concepts and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2762.51,"endTime":2767.88,"body":"give shared language. And that's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2762.51,"endTime":2767.88,"body":"part of why not part of that is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2767.88,"endTime":2771.36,"body":"the reason in addition to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2767.88,"endTime":2771.36,"body":"writing the book, I made a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2771.36,"endTime":2775.98,"body":"series of 515 minute videos,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2771.36,"endTime":2775.98,"body":"because I'm recognizing, of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2775.98,"endTime":2778.17,"body":"course, I'd love everyone to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2775.98,"endTime":2778.17,"body":"read the book, but not"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2778.17,"endTime":2780.96,"body":"everyone's going to read the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2778.17,"endTime":2780.96,"body":"book. Right? So if you're in a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2780.96,"endTime":2786.72,"body":"small group at church, some"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2780.96,"endTime":2786.72,"body":"ministry Yeah, the people, your"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2786.72,"endTime":2788.4,"body":"people that aren't going to read"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2786.72,"endTime":2788.4,"body":"the book or don't want to read"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2788.4,"endTime":2792.42,"body":"the book, then you could use"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2788.4,"endTime":2792.42,"body":"these videos as a way of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2792.6,"endTime":2795.87,"body":"bringing people along and the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2792.6,"endTime":2795.87,"body":"basics and they're on again,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2795.87,"endTime":2799.89,"body":"centered set church.com. So"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2795.87,"endTime":2799.89,"body":"that's one thing I'd say. I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2799.89,"endTime":2804.15,"body":"would highlight the importance"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2799.89,"endTime":2804.15,"body":"of shared language share these"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2804.18,"endTime":2813.12,"body":"conceptions so you can refer to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2804.18,"endTime":2813.12,"body":"it. Secondly, I think a very key"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2813.12,"endTime":2818.76,"body":"significant thing is going back"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2813.12,"endTime":2818.76,"body":"to your Your your early question"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2818.76,"endTime":2825.72,"body":"the center is the God of the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2818.76,"endTime":2825.72,"body":"center. So you could use lots"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2825.78,"endTime":2830.28,"body":"of, you know, techniques,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2825.78,"endTime":2830.28,"body":"examples, ways of dealing things"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2830.28,"endTime":2839.61,"body":"from the book. But if, if"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2830.28,"endTime":2839.61,"body":"people's concept of God is a,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2839.64,"endTime":2845.37,"body":"you know, an accusing judgmental"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2839.64,"endTime":2845.37,"body":"finger pointing figure, you're"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2845.37,"endTime":2849.81,"body":"not going to be a centered"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2845.37,"endTime":2849.81,"body":"church. Yeah. Because it to use"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2849.81,"endTime":2854.01,"body":"it in this terminology, if the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2849.81,"endTime":2854.01,"body":"God of the center is a bounded"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2854.01,"endTime":2859.11,"body":"church, God, you're gonna have a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2854.01,"endTime":2859.11,"body":"bounded church. So, and that's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2859.11,"endTime":2863.19,"body":"why I mean, in the book, you"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2859.11,"endTime":2863.19,"body":"have a chapter on the God of the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2863.19,"endTime":2869.22,"body":"center, because I think it's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2863.19,"endTime":2869.22,"body":"very key to not just put up the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2869.22,"endTime":2874.14,"body":"diagrams and talk about these"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2869.22,"endTime":2874.14,"body":"things, but work at making sure"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2874.17,"endTime":2880.14,"body":"that the God revealed by Jesus"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2874.17,"endTime":2880.14,"body":"Christ is the God that people in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2880.14,"endTime":2885.75,"body":"the community have in mind, for"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2880.14,"endTime":2885.75,"body":"this centered approach to work."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2886.29,"endTime":2891.12,"body":"So those are, I would say, would"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2886.29,"endTime":2891.12,"body":"be two foundational things. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2891.12,"endTime":2898.2,"body":"then yeah, maybe one other thing"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2891.12,"endTime":2898.2,"body":"that comes to mind is to, to be"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2898.2,"endTime":2904.59,"body":"in conversation with others. As"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2898.2,"endTime":2904.59,"body":"you do things, so and this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2904.59,"endTime":2907.5,"body":"impressed me in talking to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2904.59,"endTime":2907.5,"body":"people, I did interviews, they"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2907.5,"endTime":2910.89,"body":"would say, you know, they would"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2907.5,"endTime":2910.89,"body":"hit a situation and rather it's,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2911.07,"endTime":2916.68,"body":"you know, dealing with debates"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2911.07,"endTime":2916.68,"body":"in the church about worship, or"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2916.68,"endTime":2921.9,"body":"dealing with, you know, here's a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2916.68,"endTime":2921.9,"body":"person who has sinned. You know,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2921.9,"endTime":2926.19,"body":"or how are we gonna handle this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2921.9,"endTime":2926.19,"body":"to, to stop and say, Okay, how"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2926.19,"endTime":2930.03,"body":"do we do this in a centered way?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2926.19,"endTime":2930.03,"body":"Yeah. So not just say, Okay,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2930.03,"endTime":2935.07,"body":"let's be centered and go work on"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2930.03,"endTime":2935.07,"body":"it. But regularly, continually"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2935.58,"endTime":2939.69,"body":"be in conversation with others"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2935.58,"endTime":2939.69,"body":"and asking with intentionality,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2939.69,"endTime":2942.24,"body":"how do we do this in a centered"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2939.69,"endTime":2942.24,"body":"way, I think that will help a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2942.24,"endTime":2946.83,"body":"lot. And something else just"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2942.24,"endTime":2946.83,"body":"came to mind, I think it's very"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2946.83,"endTime":2954.54,"body":"important to recognize our"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2946.83,"endTime":2954.54,"body":"strong bounded tendencies and"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2954.54,"endTime":2961.32,"body":"therefore to be have a spirit of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2954.54,"endTime":2961.32,"body":"humility and confession. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2961.35,"endTime":2966.69,"body":"yeah, be aware of confess"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2961.35,"endTime":2966.69,"body":"sensitive to your bounded ways,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2966.69,"endTime":2968.49,"body":"my bounded ways, which will come"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2966.69,"endTime":2968.49,"body":"up."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2968.97,"endTime":2972.75,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2968.97,"endTime":2972.75,"body":"That's a great. Yeah, four, four"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2972.75,"endTime":2976.71,"body":"steps that we can take. Those"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2972.75,"endTime":2976.71,"body":"are fantastic. I have two quick"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2976.71,"endTime":2979.5,"body":"questions here. The end one, if"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2976.71,"endTime":2979.5,"body":"you could go back to your 21"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2979.5,"endTime":2981.6,"body":"year old self, what advice would"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2979.5,"endTime":2981.6,"body":"you give?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2986.04,"endTime":2991.71,"body":"To my, my 21 year"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2986.04,"endTime":2991.71,"body":"old self? Yeah. And so this is a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2991.71,"endTime":2994.8,"body":"64 year old self talking by 20"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2991.71,"endTime":2994.8,"body":"rolls. And if they're in"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2994.8,"endTime":2998.22,"body":"conversation, then I would, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2994.8,"endTime":2998.22,"body":"would acknowledge my 20 year old"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2998.28,"endTime":3003.02,"body":"21 year old self, there are some"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":2998.28,"endTime":3003.02,"body":"things that I think you were"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3003.02,"endTime":3006.47,"body":"right about, then it would be"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3003.02,"endTime":3006.47,"body":"good for me to pay attention to"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3006.47,"endTime":3010.43,"body":"today. So I'm not I'm not going"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3006.47,"endTime":3010.43,"body":"to my 20 Microsoft saying, oh,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3010.43,"endTime":3015.32,"body":"for Mark 21 that maybe I would"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3010.43,"endTime":3015.32,"body":"start with that. But yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3015.32,"endTime":3019.46,"body":"think mostly it would be this"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3015.32,"endTime":3019.46,"body":"compassionate sense of Oh, Mark,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3019.52,"endTime":3023.09,"body":"you know, you, you are so"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3019.52,"endTime":3023.09,"body":"passionate about these things,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3023.09,"endTime":3028.1,"body":"and appropriately so. But I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3023.09,"endTime":3028.1,"body":"would I would want to give that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3028.1,"endTime":3033.02,"body":"Mark. Yeah, a bit more. You"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3028.1,"endTime":3033.02,"body":"know, relax. It's not all on"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3033.02,"endTime":3043.67,"body":"your shoulders. And, yeah, Jesus"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3033.02,"endTime":3043.67,"body":"loves you, and relax in that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3043.7,"endTime":3048.56,"body":"love of Jesus. So I think that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3043.7,"endTime":3048.56,"body":"would be maybe the second thing"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3048.56,"endTime":3052.61,"body":"I'd say. And yeah, I would try"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3048.56,"endTime":3052.61,"body":"to I would read this bookmark."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3053.87,"endTime":3058.22,"body":"Church like you need it. So it'd"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3053.87,"endTime":3058.22,"body":"be good for you and others."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3058.22,"endTime":3059.21,"body":"Yeah, that's,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3059.6,"endTime":3061.91,"body":"that's great."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3059.6,"endTime":3061.91,"body":"That's good. Anything that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3061.91,"endTime":3064.55,"body":"you've been reading lately, or"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3061.91,"endTime":3064.55,"body":"watching lately, you could"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3064.55,"endTime":3066.59,"body":"recommend? Um,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3068.09,"endTime":3071.9,"body":"let's see. I just"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3068.09,"endTime":3071.9,"body":"saw, I'm starting this semester"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3071.9,"endTime":3078.5,"body":"today. And I have been a course"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3071.9,"endTime":3078.5,"body":"a book that I added to my ethics"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3078.5,"endTime":3084.35,"body":"course, this semester is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3078.5,"endTime":3084.35,"body":"restless devices by Felicia Wu"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3084.35,"endTime":3091.22,"body":"song. And I think she does a"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3084.35,"endTime":3091.22,"body":"really good job at on one hand"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3091.25,"endTime":3095.36,"body":"advocating for just the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3091.25,"endTime":3095.36,"body":"imperative of, you know, we need"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3095.36,"endTime":3099.26,"body":"to come up with some ways of"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3095.36,"endTime":3099.26,"body":"creating some space fasting from"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3100.13,"endTime":3104.12,"body":"our devices, but going deeper"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3100.13,"endTime":3104.12,"body":"and saying, you know, what is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3104.12,"endTime":3106.91,"body":"being displaced? How does the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3104.12,"endTime":3106.91,"body":"church respond? So there's"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3108.38,"endTime":3110.6,"body":"interesting, thinking about at"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3108.38,"endTime":3110.6,"body":"the moment,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3110.66,"endTime":3114.5,"body":"hmm, that's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3110.66,"endTime":3114.5,"body":"great. Yeah, so you said go to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3114.5,"endTime":3119.21,"body":"Central set church.com Where can"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3114.5,"endTime":3119.21,"body":"people Find the book, where can"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3119.33,"endTime":3122.3,"body":"people find you if they want to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3119.33,"endTime":3122.3,"body":"find you?"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3122.63,"endTime":3127.07,"body":"Okay, so you can,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3122.63,"endTime":3127.07,"body":"you can find me the book videos"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3127.1,"endTime":3130.61,"body":"on centered set church.com. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3127.1,"endTime":3130.61,"body":"I'm writing a commentary on"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3130.61,"endTime":3133.61,"body":"Galatians, which hopefully will"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3130.61,"endTime":3133.61,"body":"be out in around February."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3134.0,"endTime":3136.91,"body":"There's some information as"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3134.0,"endTime":3136.91,"body":"signed up thing there on that"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3136.91,"endTime":3140.45,"body":"centered set. church.com. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3136.91,"endTime":3140.45,"body":"that, yeah, the book is"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3140.48,"endTime":3145.61,"body":"available. Yeah, it all of the"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3140.48,"endTime":3145.61,"body":"normal sort of online places,"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3145.67,"endTime":3149.33,"body":"bookstores, you can access it as"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3145.67,"endTime":3149.33,"body":"well."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3149.84,"endTime":3152.69,"body":"Excellent. Mark,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3149.84,"endTime":3152.69,"body":"this is a fantastic"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3152.69,"endTime":3156.26,"body":"conversation. Thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3152.69,"endTime":3156.26,"body":"for joining us. I love the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3156.26,"endTime":3159.56,"body":"conversation, how do we orient"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3156.26,"endTime":3159.56,"body":"towards the center to become"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3159.86,"endTime":3164.84,"body":"more centered set and not"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3159.86,"endTime":3164.84,"body":"bounded or fuzzy, which we see a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3164.84,"endTime":3167.93,"body":"lot these days. So I really"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3164.84,"endTime":3167.93,"body":"enjoyed it. And it was very"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3167.93,"endTime":3172.01,"body":"practical. As we you took some"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3167.93,"endTime":3172.01,"body":"steps to say how can we actually"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3172.01,"endTime":3175.31,"body":"embody the character of Jesus?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3172.01,"endTime":3175.31,"body":"What are the characters that we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3175.31,"endTime":3178.61,"body":"have to take to be more"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3175.31,"endTime":3178.61,"body":"centered? And what are some of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3178.61,"endTime":3181.76,"body":"the steps that we could take to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3178.61,"endTime":3181.76,"body":"to get there? So thank you,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3181.76,"endTime":3183.11,"body":"Mark. It was really, really"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3181.76,"endTime":3183.11,"body":"good."},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3183.56,"endTime":3186.29,"body":"You are welcome. And"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3183.56,"endTime":3186.29,"body":"thanks for the great questions"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3186.29,"endTime":3189.77,"body":"and for inviting me on I"},{"speaker":"Mark Baker","startTime":3186.29,"endTime":3189.77,"body":"appreciate it. Yes. Thank you."}]}