{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":0.329,"endTime":2.789,"body":"godly power only"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":0.329,"endTime":2.789,"body":"works when people are mutually"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2.789,"endTime":8.009,"body":"submitted to God. And we are"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2.789,"endTime":8.009,"body":"living in a world where not all"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":8.009,"endTime":13.499,"body":"of us are. And so there will be"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":8.009,"endTime":13.499,"body":"times when Christians entering"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":13.499,"endTime":17.969,"body":"the world have to use worldly"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":13.499,"endTime":17.969,"body":"power. But it will only"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":17.969,"endTime":22.349,"body":"accomplish what Luther called"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":17.969,"endTime":22.349,"body":"preserve a Tory function. It'll"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":22.349,"endTime":27.449,"body":"only preserve the world. It"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":22.349,"endTime":27.449,"body":"won't save the world. You get"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":27.449,"endTime":31.229,"body":"what I'm saying there, Joshua, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":27.449,"endTime":31.229,"body":"think is a huge and important"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":31.229,"endTime":36.419,"body":"point. And I think what the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":31.229,"endTime":36.419,"body":"church always tries to do is use"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":36.689,"endTime":39.539,"body":"worldly power for God's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":36.689,"endTime":39.539,"body":"purposes, and they limit what"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":39.539,"endTime":43.619,"body":"God would do because God's not a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":39.539,"endTime":43.619,"body":"course of God, and He will not"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":43.619,"endTime":45.599,"body":"work according to worldly power."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":59.52,"endTime":61.26,"body":"Hello, and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":59.52,"endTime":61.26,"body":"welcome to the shifting culture"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":61.26,"endTime":63.6,"body":"podcast in which we have"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":61.26,"endTime":63.6,"body":"conversations about the culture"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":63.6,"endTime":66.93,"body":"we create, and the impact we can"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":63.6,"endTime":66.93,"body":"make. We longed to see the body"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":66.93,"endTime":71.46,"body":"of Christ look like Jesus. I'm"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":66.93,"endTime":71.46,"body":"your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":71.46,"endTime":75.0,"body":"shifting culture podcast.com to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":71.46,"endTime":75.0,"body":"interact and donate. And don't"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":75.0,"endTime":77.28,"body":"forget to hit the Follow button"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":75.0,"endTime":77.28,"body":"on your favorite podcast app to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":77.28,"endTime":80.88,"body":"be notified when new episodes"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":77.28,"endTime":80.88,"body":"come out each week, and go leave"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":80.91,"endTime":84.21,"body":"a rating and review. It's easy,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":80.91,"endTime":84.21,"body":"it only takes a second and it"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":84.21,"endTime":87.39,"body":"helps us find new listeners to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":84.21,"endTime":87.39,"body":"the show. Just go to the Show"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":87.39,"endTime":90.3,"body":"page on the app that you're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":87.39,"endTime":90.3,"body":"using right now and hit five"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":90.3,"endTime":94.89,"body":"stars. It really is that easy."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":90.3,"endTime":94.89,"body":"Thank you so much. And find us"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":94.89,"endTime":98.61,"body":"on social media, Instagram,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":94.89,"endTime":98.61,"body":"Twitter, Facebook, threads,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":98.79,"endTime":104.55,"body":"YouTube anywhere. I post a lot"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":98.79,"endTime":104.55,"body":"of video clips and quotes. You"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":104.55,"endTime":108.78,"body":"could interact there, so find us"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":104.55,"endTime":108.78,"body":"at shifting culture podcast."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":109.23,"endTime":112.95,"body":"Previous guests on the show have"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":109.23,"endTime":112.95,"body":"included me J. Gupta. Jonathan"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":112.95,"endTime":116.25,"body":"Tremaine, Thomas and Lucy"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":112.95,"endTime":116.25,"body":"peviot. You could go back listen"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":116.25,"endTime":120.45,"body":"to those episodes and more. But"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":116.25,"endTime":120.45,"body":"today's guest is David Fitch."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":120.48,"endTime":124.95,"body":"I'm so excited that he comes"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":120.48,"endTime":124.95,"body":"back on the podcast. David Fitch"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":124.98,"endTime":128.16,"body":"is a professor at Northern"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":124.98,"endTime":128.16,"body":"seminary and a pastor at Mission"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":128.16,"endTime":130.86,"body":"renew church in Westmont,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":128.16,"endTime":130.86,"body":"Illinois. He is married to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":130.86,"endTime":134.67,"body":"raeanne and they have one son"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":130.86,"endTime":134.67,"body":"named Max. He's coached hockey"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":134.7,"endTime":139.26,"body":"for the YMCA USA Hockey program"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":134.7,"endTime":139.26,"body":"for seven years. David teaches"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":139.26,"endTime":142.17,"body":"speaks and writes within the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":139.26,"endTime":142.17,"body":"fields of Neil Anabaptist"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":142.17,"endTime":145.83,"body":"theology missiology culture"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":142.17,"endTime":145.83,"body":"studies political theory and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":145.86,"endTime":149.61,"body":"ethics. He writes from time to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":145.86,"endTime":149.61,"body":"time on his own page at missio."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":149.61,"endTime":154.11,"body":"Alliance on his own substack for"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":149.61,"endTime":154.11,"body":"Christianity Today, outreach"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":154.11,"endTime":157.02,"body":"magazine, Church leaders.com"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":154.11,"endTime":157.02,"body":"Ethics daily and multiple other"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":157.02,"endTime":161.91,"body":"sites, magazines and journals."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":157.02,"endTime":161.91,"body":"He is CO hosts of the theology"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":161.94,"endTime":165.63,"body":"of mission podcasts. And his"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":161.94,"endTime":165.63,"body":"latest book is reckoning with"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":165.63,"endTime":170.07,"body":"power from Brazos press, David"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":165.63,"endTime":170.07,"body":"Fitch and I reckon with power in"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":170.07,"endTime":173.07,"body":"this conversation, we talked"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":170.07,"endTime":173.07,"body":"about worldly power versus godly"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":173.07,"endTime":175.8,"body":"power. What's the difference?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":173.07,"endTime":175.8,"body":"Why do we need a new"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":175.8,"endTime":178.89,"body":"relationship with power? We talk"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":175.8,"endTime":178.89,"body":"about mutual submission,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":179.01,"endTime":182.49,"body":"engaging the table for"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":179.01,"endTime":182.49,"body":"reconciliation and justice, non"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":182.49,"endTime":186.21,"body":"coercive evangelism, we even"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":182.49,"endTime":186.21,"body":"engaged in a conversation around"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":186.21,"endTime":189.99,"body":"power dynamics in the Middle"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":186.21,"endTime":189.99,"body":"East. It is a fantastic"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":189.99,"endTime":193.14,"body":"conversation that is much needed"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":189.99,"endTime":193.14,"body":"as we continue to encounter"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":193.14,"endTime":197.79,"body":"abuse of power in the church. So"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":193.14,"endTime":197.79,"body":"join us as we reckon with power"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":197.79,"endTime":202.86,"body":"and hand over the reins to God."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":197.79,"endTime":202.86,"body":"This is my conversation with"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":202.89,"endTime":207.18,"body":"David Fitch of Feds Welcome to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":202.89,"endTime":207.18,"body":"the podcasts. Thanks for joining"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":207.18,"endTime":210.33,"body":"me again, on shifting culture. I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":207.18,"endTime":210.33,"body":"really appreciate it."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":210.81,"endTime":213.36,"body":"Yeah, so good to be"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":210.81,"endTime":213.36,"body":"with you. Josh. Would you prefer"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":213.36,"endTime":216.09,"body":"Joshua or Josh? I can't remember"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":213.36,"endTime":216.09,"body":"because we were on the podcast"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":216.09,"endTime":219.96,"body":"couple years ago and I it's been"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":216.09,"endTime":219.96,"body":"a while. So is it Josh was a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":219.96,"endTime":221.58,"body":"Joshua. I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":221.58,"endTime":226.26,"body":"like Joshua, I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":221.58,"endTime":226.26,"body":"respond to Josh. So what is your"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":226.26,"endTime":228.75,"body":"wife call you? My wife calls me"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":226.26,"endTime":228.75,"body":"Joshua."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":229.74,"endTime":231.15,"body":"All right. I'm"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":229.74,"endTime":231.15,"body":"gonna call you Josh."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":235.77,"endTime":238.65,"body":"My parent, my"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":235.77,"endTime":238.65,"body":"parents call me Josh. My wife"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":238.65,"endTime":241.98,"body":"calls me Joshua. And yeah, so"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":242.04,"endTime":245.94,"body":"in my case, the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":242.04,"endTime":245.94,"body":"only person who calls me Dave is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":245.94,"endTime":250.29,"body":"my wife, who virtually anybody"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":245.94,"endTime":250.29,"body":"who gets to know me, especially"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":250.29,"endTime":253.68,"body":"my students at Northern"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":250.29,"endTime":253.68,"body":"seminary, and this is this all"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":253.68,"endTime":256.08,"body":"started because they talked"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":253.68,"endTime":256.08,"body":"behind my back on the chat"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":256.08,"endTime":258.93,"body":"rooms, but they just called me"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":256.08,"endTime":258.93,"body":"Fitch and I said, well, for"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":258.93,"endTime":262.11,"body":"Pete's sake, just call me Fitch."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":258.93,"endTime":262.11,"body":"So all my friends just call me"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":262.11,"endTime":263.85,"body":"Fitch. Please call me Fitch."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":262.11,"endTime":263.85,"body":"Josh."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":264.089,"endTime":266.849,"body":"All right. I'll"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":264.089,"endTime":266.849,"body":"call you bitch. That's perfect."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":267.449,"endTime":270.719,"body":"All right, well, we'll reserve"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":267.449,"endTime":270.719,"body":"our our real names for our"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":270.719,"endTime":276.749,"body":"wives. And Absolutely. Great."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":270.719,"endTime":276.749,"body":"Well, let's reckon with some"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":276.749,"endTime":282.149,"body":"power this morning. And I think"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":276.749,"endTime":282.149,"body":"it's a necessary thing. I think"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":282.149,"endTime":286.499,"body":"it's been all over, especially"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":282.149,"endTime":286.499,"body":"with the church is we're trying"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":286.499,"endTime":289.679,"body":"to figure out what what power"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":286.499,"endTime":289.679,"body":"looks like it what power means"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":289.679,"endTime":295.289,"body":"and how we're abusing power or"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":289.679,"endTime":295.289,"body":"not abusing power. And usually,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":295.679,"endTime":299.459,"body":"I think we're taking some things"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":295.679,"endTime":299.459,"body":"sometimes with the wrong lens"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":299.489,"endTime":304.529,"body":"too. Make amends and and so"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":299.489,"endTime":304.529,"body":"figure it out. And you wrote"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":304.529,"endTime":308.969,"body":"this great book reckoning with"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":304.529,"endTime":308.969,"body":"power. And I really, really"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":308.969,"endTime":314.429,"body":"think that we need to take some"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":308.969,"endTime":314.429,"body":"of your advice here and use some"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":314.429,"endTime":318.869,"body":"godly power. So I'd love to get"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":314.429,"endTime":318.869,"body":"into some definitions, the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":318.869,"endTime":322.439,"body":"beginning, what is power? And"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":318.869,"endTime":322.439,"body":"what are the types of power that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":322.439,"endTime":323.039,"body":"are out there,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":323.34,"endTime":325.65,"body":"I kind of start out"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":323.34,"endTime":325.65,"body":"the book by talking about the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":325.65,"endTime":333.63,"body":"standard account of power. And I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":325.65,"endTime":333.63,"body":"say that something like I would"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":333.63,"endTime":337.23,"body":"like to disrupt that I would"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":333.63,"endTime":337.23,"body":"like to discredit that, but the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":337.23,"endTime":340.17,"body":"standard account of power is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":337.23,"endTime":340.17,"body":"there's only one power at work"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":340.17,"endTime":344.46,"body":"in the world. And according to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":340.17,"endTime":344.46,"body":"max Vabre, that is power of one"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":344.46,"endTime":349.11,"body":"person or organization over"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":344.46,"endTime":349.11,"body":"another person or organization,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":349.59,"endTime":353.88,"body":"whereby Person A gets Person B"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":349.59,"endTime":353.88,"body":"to do what Person A wants them"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":353.88,"endTime":360.03,"body":"to do. And so power over like,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":353.88,"endTime":360.03,"body":"you know, when the feudalist"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":360.03,"endTime":365.28,"body":"times in Europe, if you didn't"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":360.03,"endTime":365.28,"body":"pay your taxes, the SIR the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":365.31,"endTime":371.07,"body":"knights would show up on behalf"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":365.31,"endTime":371.07,"body":"of the serf, and, and with a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":371.07,"endTime":374.76,"body":"sword make you pay the day they"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":371.07,"endTime":374.76,"body":"force you to pay their axes."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":375.03,"endTime":380.01,"body":"It's a little more complicated"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":375.03,"endTime":380.01,"body":"than that now, today. And so now"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":380.01,"endTime":384.54,"body":"we see and I cover in the first"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":380.01,"endTime":384.54,"body":"chapter, several different ways"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":384.54,"endTime":389.13,"body":"of understanding how power"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":384.54,"endTime":389.13,"body":"works, not through explicit"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":389.64,"endTime":393.9,"body":"coercion, or somebody putting a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":389.64,"endTime":393.9,"body":"gun to your head or something."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":394.08,"endTime":398.4,"body":"But more subtly, in the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":394.08,"endTime":398.4,"body":"discourses of our time, in the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":398.49,"endTime":403.89,"body":"way, let's say male females"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":398.49,"endTime":403.89,"body":"interact together, what Laura"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":403.89,"endTime":408.24,"body":"molvi called the male gaze, or"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":403.89,"endTime":408.24,"body":"what Foucault talks about the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":408.24,"endTime":412.08,"body":"technologies of power, whereby,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":408.24,"endTime":412.08,"body":"you know, if you go to a doctor,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":412.53,"endTime":415.38,"body":"and the and there's, there's a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":412.53,"endTime":415.38,"body":"power relationship there,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":415.47,"endTime":419.88,"body":"doctor, an expert, he's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":415.47,"endTime":419.88,"body":"certified, supposedly, he's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":419.88,"endTime":424.23,"body":"objective, it could be a her"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":419.88,"endTime":424.23,"body":"too, by the way, he or she is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":424.23,"endTime":428.97,"body":"objective. And I'm the patient."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":424.23,"endTime":428.97,"body":"And I chose to come here. And"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":429.0,"endTime":432.93,"body":"you know, therefore, I better"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":429.0,"endTime":432.93,"body":"listen to the doctor. And no"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":432.93,"endTime":436.5,"body":"one's gonna say I was forced to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":432.93,"endTime":436.5,"body":"do that. But there is a woven"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":436.74,"endTime":439.5,"body":"discourse of power in the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":436.74,"endTime":439.5,"body":"medical world, and a lot of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":439.5,"endTime":444.12,"body":"people are questioning it right?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":439.5,"endTime":444.12,"body":"Or do those drug companies pay"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":444.12,"endTime":447.54,"body":"the doctors a lot of money to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":444.12,"endTime":447.54,"body":"prescribe those drugs to me?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":448.29,"endTime":451.2,"body":"What about all the other ways"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":448.29,"endTime":451.2,"body":"that I could be taking care of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":451.2,"endTime":454.89,"body":"myself, health wise, instead of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":451.2,"endTime":454.89,"body":"taking that drug to get my"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":454.89,"endTime":458.73,"body":"cholesterol down? Why about why"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":454.89,"endTime":458.73,"body":"not just go not go to McDonald's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":458.73,"endTime":462.66,"body":"so often? Okay, by the way, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":458.73,"endTime":462.66,"body":"admit, I am, I'm drinking"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":462.66,"endTime":466.95,"body":"McDonald's coffee, right now. So"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":462.66,"endTime":466.95,"body":"that was kind of a duplicitous"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":466.95,"endTime":469.2,"body":"statement on my part, but you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":466.95,"endTime":469.2,"body":"know, what I'm saying, there's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":469.2,"endTime":473.22,"body":"all these ways, powers woven"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":469.2,"endTime":473.22,"body":"into the discourses of our"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":473.22,"endTime":477.78,"body":"lives. And it's becoming more"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":473.22,"endTime":477.78,"body":"and more obvious, that we need"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":477.78,"endTime":482.58,"body":"to become aware of them. Now the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":477.78,"endTime":482.58,"body":"Church will become becoming more"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":482.58,"endTime":484.86,"body":"I'm sorry, I'm going off on a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":482.58,"endTime":484.86,"body":"riff here. But we're becoming"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":484.86,"endTime":489.99,"body":"more and more aware of how power"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":484.86,"endTime":489.99,"body":"is going off the rails. And this"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":489.99,"endTime":492.96,"body":"is not the power of anybody,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":489.99,"endTime":492.96,"body":"like when you go to church, no"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":492.96,"endTime":495.66,"body":"one's putting a gun to your head"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":492.96,"endTime":495.66,"body":"to go to church. When you go"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":495.66,"endTime":500.16,"body":"into that church. There are all"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":495.66,"endTime":500.16,"body":"sorts of inter woven power"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":500.37,"endTime":504.06,"body":"structures that you are"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":500.37,"endTime":504.06,"body":"assenting to, that you might"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":504.06,"endTime":510.0,"body":"even find yourself trusting. And"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":504.06,"endTime":510.0,"body":"yet, oops, there's there's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":510.0,"endTime":514.35,"body":"something mischievious going on"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":510.0,"endTime":514.35,"body":"coercive going on, abusive going"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":514.35,"endTime":518.85,"body":"on. And, and so, Joshua, I think"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":514.35,"endTime":518.85,"body":"we're at a point where we've got"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":518.85,"endTime":523.89,"body":"to do some reckoning. We are"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":518.85,"endTime":523.89,"body":"seeing power abuse everywhere,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":524.22,"endTime":528.27,"body":"but most alarmingly in the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":524.22,"endTime":528.27,"body":"church, and it's time to take a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":528.27,"endTime":529.17,"body":"look at what's going on."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":586.92,"endTime":590.25,"body":"So this abuse is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":586.92,"endTime":590.25,"body":"being unveiled this, these power"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":590.25,"endTime":595.35,"body":"dynamics are being unveiled. Why"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":590.25,"endTime":595.35,"body":"do you think that now is the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":595.35,"endTime":600.3299999999999,"body":"time that our eyes are being"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":595.35,"endTime":600.3299999999999,"body":"opened? Or we're starting to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":600.3299999999999,"endTime":603.93,"body":"speak up? I don't know what is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":600.3299999999999,"endTime":603.93,"body":"happening in the world in the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":603.93,"endTime":608.97,"body":"church world today. And why are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":603.93,"endTime":608.97,"body":"we in this predicament that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":608.97,"endTime":612.63,"body":"we're in of an abuse of power"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":608.97,"endTime":612.63,"body":"all over the place?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":614.34,"endTime":618.84,"body":"Yeah, well, it's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":614.34,"endTime":618.84,"body":"that that's a fascinating"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":618.93,"endTime":622.59,"body":"question. And I think there's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":618.93,"endTime":622.59,"body":"three or four different layers"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":622.59,"endTime":626.22,"body":"going on there. But let me just"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":622.59,"endTime":626.22,"body":"try one to get our conversation"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":626.22,"endTime":631.89,"body":"going. We are coming out of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":626.22,"endTime":631.89,"body":"those of us who've lived 50"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":631.89,"endTime":636.15,"body":"years. We are coming from a time"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":631.89,"endTime":636.15,"body":"when we were babies when the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":636.15,"endTime":639.24,"body":"church was trusted when"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":636.15,"endTime":639.24,"body":"Christianity was basically in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":639.24,"endTime":645.66,"body":"the culture. When the clergy had"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":639.24,"endTime":645.66,"body":"the authority, and it was never"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":645.66,"endTime":650.79,"body":"question it was rarely question."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":645.66,"endTime":650.79,"body":"And it all fit nicely together."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":650.79,"endTime":653.04,"body":"By the way with the way"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":650.79,"endTime":653.04,"body":"government was working at the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":653.04,"endTime":656.49,"body":"time, everything. We're now"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":653.04,"endTime":656.49,"body":"coming out of that time when"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":656.52,"endTime":659.5799999999999,"body":"Christianity is anything but"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":656.52,"endTime":659.5799999999999,"body":"trusted in our culture. I think"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":659.5799999999999,"endTime":664.38,"body":"it's mistrusted. I think there's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":659.5799999999999,"endTime":664.38,"body":"a resentment in the culture. And"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":664.38,"endTime":668.1,"body":"so now you have this shifting"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":664.38,"endTime":668.1,"body":"this massive shifting of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":668.1,"endTime":672.66,"body":"cultures, where the pastor, hey,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":668.1,"endTime":672.66,"body":"I assumed I got when I got this"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":672.66,"endTime":676.14,"body":"job, and somebody gave me the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":672.66,"endTime":676.14,"body":"title of Reverend. And I went"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":676.14,"endTime":679.59,"body":"through three years of seminary"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":676.14,"endTime":679.59,"body":"that I'd have a job, and then"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":679.59,"endTime":683.43,"body":"people would trust me, and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":679.59,"endTime":683.43,"body":"they're not trusting me. And"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":683.43,"endTime":688.9499999999999,"body":"that's the big shift in power."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":683.43,"endTime":688.9499999999999,"body":"Now, all the assumed, woven into"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":688.9499999999999,"endTime":692.49,"body":"the system powers are being"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":688.9499999999999,"endTime":692.49,"body":"questioned. So we have people"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":692.49,"endTime":696.24,"body":"that not too happy with it. And"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":692.49,"endTime":696.24,"body":"so this has kind of exposed all"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":696.24,"endTime":699.18,"body":"the ways power has been there,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":696.24,"endTime":699.18,"body":"but we never knew it or"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":699.18,"endTime":702.3,"body":"recognized it. And furthermore,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":699.18,"endTime":702.3,"body":"we're rejecting it. And now"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":702.3,"endTime":707.52,"body":"abuse, violence, coercion. I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":702.3,"endTime":707.52,"body":"mean, look at the way sexuality"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":707.52,"endTime":710.91,"body":"has changed in the last 50"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":707.52,"endTime":710.91,"body":"years. Everything was assumed"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":710.97,"endTime":715.77,"body":"never questioned 50 years ago."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":710.97,"endTime":715.77,"body":"Now. We're all freaking out. Oh,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":715.77,"endTime":718.77,"body":"my goodness, it's all question"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":715.77,"endTime":718.77,"body":"and what's your first impulse is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":718.77,"endTime":724.35,"body":"a parent of a teenager? Oh,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":718.77,"endTime":724.35,"body":"yeah. I gotta do something. I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":724.35,"endTime":727.98,"body":"gotta get defensive. I gotta"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":724.35,"endTime":727.98,"body":"pull that phone. I gotta quit"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":727.98,"endTime":731.22,"body":"paying for the phone. I got to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":727.98,"endTime":731.22,"body":"order this kid around how many?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":731.22,"endTime":735.09,"body":"No, that doesn't work. And so"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":731.22,"endTime":735.09,"body":"this is kind of where we're at"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":735.09,"endTime":740.49,"body":"now, in the church today is all"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":735.09,"endTime":740.49,"body":"the abuses of power, our"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":740.49,"endTime":745.02,"body":"reaction to the loss of power,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":740.49,"endTime":745.02,"body":"and it's just reached its its"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":745.05,"endTime":747.99,"body":"ugliness. And we need to reckon"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":745.05,"endTime":747.99,"body":"with power."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":748.29,"endTime":750.39,"body":"Well, okay, so"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":748.29,"endTime":750.39,"body":"we need to reckon with power."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":750.39,"endTime":753.81,"body":"Here, everything's been exposed."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":750.39,"endTime":753.81,"body":"How does the world reckon with"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":753.81,"endTime":757.74,"body":"power? What is worldly power"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":753.81,"endTime":757.74,"body":"look like? And give me some"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":757.74,"endTime":763.05,"body":"examples of how it's been"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":757.74,"endTime":763.05,"body":"yielded. At the moment. Perhaps"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":763.0799999999999,"endTime":766.86,"body":"I need to start"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":763.0799999999999,"endTime":766.86,"body":"with the idea that there are two"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":766.86,"endTime":772.56,"body":"powers at work in the world, not"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":766.86,"endTime":772.56,"body":"one. And worldly power is power"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":772.56,"endTime":778.11,"body":"over. And although it it masks"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":772.56,"endTime":778.11,"body":"itself in various different"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":778.11,"endTime":785.46,"body":"ways. It's always coercive. Like"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":778.11,"endTime":785.46,"body":"the government, the government"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":785.52,"endTime":791.37,"body":"legislates things, and then you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":785.52,"endTime":791.37,"body":"have to comply or else you have"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":791.37,"endTime":795.3,"body":"to pay your taxes, or else there"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":791.37,"endTime":795.3,"body":"are consequences. Coercion,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":795.63,"endTime":801.3299999999999,"body":"worldly powers, is power over."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":795.63,"endTime":801.3299999999999,"body":"But godly power is never course."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":801.87,"endTime":806.01,"body":"It is always by his presence, by"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":801.87,"endTime":806.01,"body":"the power of the Holy Spirit,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":806.43,"endTime":811.17,"body":"that he works among us, and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":806.43,"endTime":811.17,"body":"convicts us and restores us and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":811.17,"endTime":815.1899999999999,"body":"calls us to reconciliation and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":811.17,"endTime":815.1899999999999,"body":"changes things. Notice I'm"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":815.1899999999999,"endTime":819.72,"body":"talking about social worlds, not"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":815.1899999999999,"endTime":819.72,"body":"just my inner soul, he certainly"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":819.72,"endTime":824.88,"body":"works. The power of God, by His"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":819.72,"endTime":824.88,"body":"presence works in my soul, but"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":824.88,"endTime":828.27,"body":"he also works in the world. This"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":824.88,"endTime":828.27,"body":"is something we've lost. And so"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":828.27,"endTime":832.17,"body":"I want to say there's two powers"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":828.27,"endTime":832.17,"body":"at work, not one. In the book, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":832.17,"endTime":836.16,"body":"go into Genesis, you know,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":832.17,"endTime":836.16,"body":"Genesis where God was present in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":836.16,"endTime":842.4,"body":"the garden, with Adam and Eve."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":836.16,"endTime":842.4,"body":"And when they usurped his power,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":842.49,"endTime":846.15,"body":"by becoming by eating of the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":842.49,"endTime":846.15,"body":"fruit of good and evil, and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":846.15,"endTime":849.99,"body":"wanting to become God"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":846.15,"endTime":849.99,"body":"themselves. This was the great"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":849.99,"endTime":854.55,"body":"sin of the garden, trying to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":849.99,"endTime":854.55,"body":"become God, you SERP power over"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":854.55,"endTime":858.3299999999999,"body":"God never does that were the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":854.55,"endTime":858.3299999999999,"body":"ones who did it first. And then,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":858.4499999999999,"endTime":861.06,"body":"and then they had to be escorted"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":858.4499999999999,"endTime":861.06,"body":"out of the garden because that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":861.06,"endTime":865.1999999999999,"body":"was not the way of God. God is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":861.06,"endTime":865.1999999999999,"body":"by his presence. And then we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":865.1999999999999,"endTime":868.5,"body":"know in Genesis six, violence"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":865.1999999999999,"endTime":868.5,"body":"broke out. And so ever since"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":868.5,"endTime":872.0699999999999,"body":"then, we've had two powers at"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":868.5,"endTime":872.0699999999999,"body":"work, God's power through Jesus"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":872.0699999999999,"endTime":876.12,"body":"Christ, at work in the world,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":872.0699999999999,"endTime":876.12,"body":"and worldly power. And by the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":876.12,"endTime":880.38,"body":"way, Jesus says, One more"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":876.12,"endTime":880.38,"body":"illustration, the disciple there"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":880.38,"endTime":883.29,"body":"already go to Jerusalem, Jesus"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":880.38,"endTime":883.29,"body":"is at the table. This is Luke"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":883.38,"endTime":888.84,"body":"22, I believe. And the disciples"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":883.38,"endTime":888.84,"body":"are trying to figure out, you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":888.84,"endTime":892.53,"body":"know, who gets the power? Who"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":888.84,"endTime":892.53,"body":"gets to tell the other persons"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":892.53,"endTime":894.81,"body":"what to do? They think the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":892.53,"endTime":894.81,"body":"kingdom is coming as they enter"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":894.81,"endTime":897.66,"body":"in Jerusalem, and it's going to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":894.81,"endTime":897.66,"body":"be a kingdom, Allah, Roman"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":897.66,"endTime":902.34,"body":"Empire kingdom. And Jesus has to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":897.66,"endTime":902.34,"body":"say, you know how the Gentiles"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":902.34,"endTime":909.99,"body":"roll it over you. Not so among"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":902.34,"endTime":909.99,"body":"you, not so among us. And he"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":909.99,"endTime":913.3199999999999,"body":"points to the table and a new"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":909.99,"endTime":913.3199999999999,"body":"way of being together, and a new"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":913.3199999999999,"endTime":917.5799999999999,"body":"way that the power of God"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":913.3199999999999,"endTime":917.5799999999999,"body":"through Jesus by presence shall"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":917.5799999999999,"endTime":922.23,"body":"be at work in the world. So we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":917.5799999999999,"endTime":922.23,"body":"got two powers, not one in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":922.23,"endTime":926.55,"body":"forever the church has been"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":922.23,"endTime":926.55,"body":"blurring the two always has to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":926.55,"endTime":931.1999999999999,"body":"go back and forth. Will we blur"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":926.55,"endTime":931.1999999999999,"body":"God's power with worldly power,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":931.65,"endTime":934.89,"body":"or and then have to separate the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":931.65,"endTime":934.89,"body":"two all over again after that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":934.89,"endTime":939.12,"body":"blows up? And that's where we're"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":934.89,"endTime":939.12,"body":"at today, the blurring of God's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":939.12,"endTime":943.29,"body":"power with worldly power. You"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":939.12,"endTime":943.29,"body":"know, I give several examples,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":943.41,"endTime":948.03,"body":"examples of churches. You know,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":943.41,"endTime":948.03,"body":"Mark Driscoll, James McDonald,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":948.03,"endTime":952.35,"body":"how they just blurred the power."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":948.03,"endTime":952.35,"body":"They, they started out as good"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":952.35,"endTime":957.0,"body":"people wanting to be the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":952.35,"endTime":957.0,"body":"minister of the presence. of God"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":957.0,"endTime":961.17,"body":"through Jesus, and things, kind"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":957.0,"endTime":961.17,"body":"of as they always do, people get"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":961.17,"endTime":964.17,"body":"saved, people get changed,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":961.17,"endTime":964.17,"body":"things happen. And then they"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":964.17,"endTime":967.23,"body":"took the power on themselves and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":964.17,"endTime":967.23,"body":"everything went wrong. They"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":967.23,"endTime":968.61,"body":"blurred the power, I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":968.61,"endTime":972.09,"body":"want to pull out"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":968.61,"endTime":972.09,"body":"a couple of things here. One, if"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":972.09,"endTime":977.64,"body":"I could think about worldly"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":972.09,"endTime":977.64,"body":"power and godly power, can can"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":977.64,"endTime":982.11,"body":"you say here there are two"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":977.64,"endTime":982.11,"body":"kingdoms that play the kingdom"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":982.11,"endTime":985.59,"body":"of the world, the kingdom of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":982.11,"endTime":985.59,"body":"God? And that's what happens in"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":985.59,"endTime":991.56,"body":"the garden? Is it something like"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":985.59,"endTime":991.56,"body":"that? Does that help have if I'm"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":991.56,"endTime":995.64,"body":"thinking about the circle of a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":991.56,"endTime":995.64,"body":"kingdom, there is there's this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":996.09,"endTime":1000.05,"body":"worldly kingdom, there's this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":996.09,"endTime":1000.05,"body":"godly kingdom, the kingdom of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1000.05,"endTime":1005.42,"body":"God. And we are trying to mix"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1000.05,"endTime":1005.42,"body":"those two things together to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1005.66,"endTime":1007.79,"body":"assert power. This"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1007.79,"endTime":1010.52,"body":"this has been going"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1007.79,"endTime":1010.52,"body":"on I have a chapter on showing"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1010.52,"endTime":1013.97,"body":"how the church has always tried"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1010.52,"endTime":1013.97,"body":"to figure this out. Agustin"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1013.97,"endTime":1019.25,"body":"being city of God's city, a city"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1013.97,"endTime":1019.25,"body":"of man, and, and how does the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1019.25,"endTime":1023.87,"body":"city of God, the city of Heaven"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1019.25,"endTime":1023.87,"body":"and the city of the earth work"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1023.87,"endTime":1028.55,"body":"together? This has always been"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1023.87,"endTime":1028.55,"body":"the struggle, because after the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1028.55,"endTime":1033.32,"body":"garden, we have the temptation"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1028.55,"endTime":1033.32,"body":"to use earthly power to do God's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1033.32,"endTime":1037.1000000000001,"body":"work. By the way, this is,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1033.32,"endTime":1037.1000000000001,"body":"folks, you got to get the book"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1037.1000000000001,"endTime":1039.14,"body":"because this is kind of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1037.1000000000001,"endTime":1039.14,"body":"complicated. But the fact of the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1039.14,"endTime":1043.19,"body":"matter is, godly power only"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1039.14,"endTime":1043.19,"body":"works when people are mutually"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1043.19,"endTime":1048.41,"body":"submitted to God. And we are"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1043.19,"endTime":1048.41,"body":"living in a world where not all"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1048.41,"endTime":1053.9,"body":"of us are. And so there will be"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1048.41,"endTime":1053.9,"body":"times when Christians entering"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1053.9,"endTime":1058.3700000000001,"body":"of the world have to use worldly"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1053.9,"endTime":1058.3700000000001,"body":"power. But it will only"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1058.3700000000001,"endTime":1062.66,"body":"accomplish what Luther called"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1058.3700000000001,"endTime":1062.66,"body":"preserve a Tory function. It"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1062.66,"endTime":1067.8500000000001,"body":"will only preserve the world. It"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1062.66,"endTime":1067.8500000000001,"body":"won't save the world. You get"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1067.8500000000001,"endTime":1071.63,"body":"what I'm saying there, Joshua, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1067.8500000000001,"endTime":1071.63,"body":"think is a huge and important"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1071.63,"endTime":1076.79,"body":"point. And I think what the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1071.63,"endTime":1076.79,"body":"church always tries to do is use"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1077.06,"endTime":1079.94,"body":"worldly power for God's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1077.06,"endTime":1079.94,"body":"purposes, and they limit what"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1079.94,"endTime":1084.02,"body":"God would do because God's not a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1079.94,"endTime":1084.02,"body":"corpse of God. And he will not"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1084.02,"endTime":1086.9,"body":"work according to worldly power."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1084.02,"endTime":1086.9,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1087.35,"endTime":1090.62,"body":"Okay. Well, you"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1087.35,"endTime":1090.62,"body":"will you enter into the mess of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1090.62,"endTime":1093.1399999999999,"body":"the Middle East with me for a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1090.62,"endTime":1093.1399999999999,"body":"moment and talk about power."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1093.5,"endTime":1097.85,"body":"Let's let's go with ISRAEL"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1093.5,"endTime":1097.85,"body":"PALESTINE. If we have a lens of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1097.85,"endTime":1104.15,"body":"worldly power, we have one power"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1097.85,"endTime":1104.15,"body":"structure over the other. Israel"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1104.18,"endTime":1110.09,"body":"Ed, it had middlee wants to make"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1104.18,"endTime":1110.09,"body":"sure that Palestine is in this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1110.09,"endTime":1113.69,"body":"little corner, they have a lot"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1110.09,"endTime":1113.69,"body":"of military might they have a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1113.69,"endTime":1120.53,"body":"lot of actual violent power that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1113.69,"endTime":1120.53,"body":"they could evoke. And because"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1120.53,"endTime":1125.81,"body":"there is this, this power,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1120.53,"endTime":1125.81,"body":"dynamic and imbalance, you know,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1125.84,"endTime":1130.4,"body":"there's, you know, Hamas came in"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1125.84,"endTime":1130.4,"body":"and did horrific things, Israel,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1131.09,"endTime":1136.52,"body":"murdered women and children took"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1131.09,"endTime":1136.52,"body":"hostages. And for a lot of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1136.52,"endTime":1139.61,"body":"people in the world now because"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1136.52,"endTime":1139.61,"body":"there is an imbalance of power,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1139.61,"endTime":1146.57,"body":"they say, Whatever way necessary"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1139.61,"endTime":1146.57,"body":"to get equity of power is going"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1146.57,"endTime":1152.66,"body":"to be good. How do we utilize"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1146.57,"endTime":1152.66,"body":"godly power? mutual submission"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1152.96,"endTime":1157.79,"body":"in a place like that, where not"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1152.96,"endTime":1157.79,"body":"many are following the way of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1157.79,"endTime":1163.34,"body":"Jesus? Is it actually is it"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1157.79,"endTime":1163.34,"body":"possible to enter into this to a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1163.34,"endTime":1166.28,"body":"place where people aren't"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1163.34,"endTime":1166.28,"body":"following the way of Jesus and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1166.28,"endTime":1173.6,"body":"exerts godly power? So that we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1166.28,"endTime":1173.6,"body":"could see the results of godly"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1173.6,"endTime":1177.56,"body":"power? Which would would be like"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1173.6,"endTime":1177.56,"body":"Shalom and peace?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1178.52,"endTime":1183.11,"body":"Yeah. So So first"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1178.52,"endTime":1183.11,"body":"kind of point is, we can never"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1183.11,"endTime":1186.74,"body":"use godly power, if we're using"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1183.11,"endTime":1186.74,"body":"godly power, it's actually not"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1187.31,"endTime":1191.3899999999999,"body":"God anymore. It's us. And so"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1187.31,"endTime":1191.3899999999999,"body":"that's a big, that's a big"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1191.3899999999999,"endTime":1199.28,"body":"distinction there, but I talk"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1191.3899999999999,"endTime":1199.28,"body":"about so so let me just because"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1199.31,"endTime":1204.08,"body":"because just war is a long"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1199.31,"endTime":1204.08,"body":"tradition, especially in Roman"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1204.08,"endTime":1208.19,"body":"Catholicism, where there"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1204.08,"endTime":1208.19,"body":"sometimes will be evil that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1208.19,"endTime":1213.26,"body":"needs to be overcome. Versus so"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1208.19,"endTime":1213.26,"body":"we have to use the lesser of the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1213.26,"endTime":1219.56,"body":"two evils etc, etc. I talk about"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1213.26,"endTime":1219.56,"body":"worldly power, like, like, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1219.56,"endTime":1222.41,"body":"give the example of a traffic"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1219.56,"endTime":1222.41,"body":"light at a busy intersection."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1222.68,"endTime":1227.12,"body":"And that what the traffic light"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1222.68,"endTime":1227.12,"body":"does is it kind of coercively"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1227.3899999999999,"endTime":1230.81,"body":"orders traffic so we don't run"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1227.3899999999999,"endTime":1230.81,"body":"into each other and kill each"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1230.81,"endTime":1234.5,"body":"other at the intersection. You"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1230.81,"endTime":1234.5,"body":"know. And by the way, if you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1234.5,"endTime":1237.02,"body":"don't obey the red light, you're"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1234.5,"endTime":1237.02,"body":"probably going to get a ticket"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1237.02,"endTime":1238.7,"body":"and if you get too many of those"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1237.02,"endTime":1238.7,"body":"tickets, you're going to get"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1238.7,"endTime":1241.7,"body":"your license. If he if he had"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1238.7,"endTime":1241.7,"body":"too many tickets, you might even"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1241.7,"endTime":1249.74,"body":"go to jail coercive power over,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1241.7,"endTime":1249.74,"body":"but the intersection does keep"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1249.74,"endTime":1252.62,"body":"people from running into each"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1249.74,"endTime":1252.62,"body":"other and killing each other."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1252.92,"endTime":1257.87,"body":"But the the two cars that are in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1252.92,"endTime":1257.87,"body":"countering the intersection,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1257.87,"endTime":1260.84,"body":"let's say or or the person"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1257.87,"endTime":1260.84,"body":"behind you the intersection that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1260.84,"endTime":1263.27,"body":"is honking at you because you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1260.84,"endTime":1263.27,"body":"didn't like step on the gas"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1263.27,"endTime":1265.85,"body":"right when the green, it's not"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1263.27,"endTime":1265.85,"body":"going to solve those problems."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1265.91,"endTime":1268.76,"body":"If you're given the finger to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1265.91,"endTime":1268.76,"body":"the other person at the other"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1268.76,"endTime":1272.66,"body":"intersection, it's not going to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1268.76,"endTime":1272.66,"body":"solve the conflictual anger and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1272.66,"endTime":1276.74,"body":"sin in the world. It's just"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1272.66,"endTime":1276.74,"body":"going to hold it at bay, it's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1276.74,"endTime":1280.7,"body":"going to preserve it. And God's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1276.74,"endTime":1280.7,"body":"going to have to do that work."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1280.7,"endTime":1282.95,"body":"And that's going to be the work"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1280.7,"endTime":1282.95,"body":"of the church. This is how I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1282.95,"endTime":1287.66,"body":"believe Anyways, now in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1282.95,"endTime":1287.66,"body":"Palestine, in Israel, one thing"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1287.66,"endTime":1291.53,"body":"we learned about power over it"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1287.66,"endTime":1291.53,"body":"can, it can only preserve it"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1291.53,"endTime":1296.3,"body":"can't. It can't heal, it can't"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1291.53,"endTime":1296.3,"body":"reconcile. It can't. We've"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1296.3,"endTime":1302.3899999999999,"body":"tried. And we know the I was"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1296.3,"endTime":1302.3899999999999,"body":"listening to a study a couple of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1302.3899999999999,"endTime":1308.45,"body":"days ago, about the Iraq war."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1302.3899999999999,"endTime":1308.45,"body":"For every one civilian killed,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1308.45,"endTime":1313.97,"body":"you convert three into a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1308.45,"endTime":1313.97,"body":"terrorist, you are not solving"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1313.97,"endTime":1318.29,"body":"the problem through violence."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1313.97,"endTime":1318.29,"body":"You're creating more violence,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1318.32,"endTime":1321.29,"body":"because that's the way violence"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1318.32,"endTime":1321.29,"body":"works. It's the way of the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1321.29,"endTime":1325.76,"body":"world. It's not the way of Jesus"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1321.29,"endTime":1325.76,"body":"who dies for somebody instead of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1325.76,"endTime":1330.23,"body":"inflicting violence back on"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1325.76,"endTime":1330.23,"body":"them. It's the way of the world."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1330.35,"endTime":1335.27,"body":"And so when we come to Hamas,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1330.35,"endTime":1335.27,"body":"the awful, awful evil,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1336.23,"endTime":1342.02,"body":"horrendous evil of Hamas,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1336.23,"endTime":1342.02,"body":"inflicted on Israel to go back"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1342.02,"endTime":1346.7,"body":"and return that evil for evil"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1342.02,"endTime":1346.7,"body":"doesn't solve the problem, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1346.7,"endTime":1350.06,"body":"daresay doesn't preserve"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1346.7,"endTime":1350.06,"body":"justice. And so this is the work"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1350.06,"endTime":1355.04,"body":"of worldly power. How can we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1350.06,"endTime":1355.04,"body":"create a preserve a Tory"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1355.28,"endTime":1358.43,"body":"approach that can keep people"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1355.28,"endTime":1358.43,"body":"from killing each other, like"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1358.43,"endTime":1362.6299999999999,"body":"that traffic light in Palestine"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1358.43,"endTime":1362.6299999999999,"body":"in Israel, so that God can do"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1362.6299999999999,"endTime":1366.11,"body":"his work? The ultimate work"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1362.6299999999999,"endTime":1366.11,"body":"needs to be done by my Christian"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1366.11,"endTime":1369.65,"body":"brothers and sisters, in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1366.11,"endTime":1369.65,"body":"collaboration with Jewish"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1369.65,"endTime":1374.3,"body":"brothers and sisters. I know"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1369.65,"endTime":1374.3,"body":"many Palestinian Christians, we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1374.3,"endTime":1379.58,"body":"need to be the people of Jesus"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1374.3,"endTime":1379.58,"body":"witnessing to another way. And"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1379.58,"endTime":1382.58,"body":"that's the only way things will"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1379.58,"endTime":1382.58,"body":"go. So there's two parts to the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1382.58,"endTime":1386.6,"body":"answer the question, yes, we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1382.58,"endTime":1386.6,"body":"must work for a preserver Tory"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1386.6,"endTime":1392.36,"body":"solution there. But recognize"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1386.6,"endTime":1392.36,"body":"that this this can't achieve"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1392.3899999999999,"endTime":1396.65,"body":"ultimate justice. Only Jesus"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1392.3899999999999,"endTime":1396.65,"body":"can. And so the churches must"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1396.65,"endTime":1401.12,"body":"rise up just like they did in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1396.65,"endTime":1401.12,"body":"the Jim Crow South in the 50s."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1401.72,"endTime":1403.49,"body":"And witness to another way."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1403.91,"endTime":1407.3899999999999,"body":"Yeah. So what is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1403.91,"endTime":1407.3899999999999,"body":"that other way? How do we how do"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1407.3899999999999,"endTime":1411.86,"body":"we witness to that? And how do"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1407.3899999999999,"endTime":1411.86,"body":"we say this is a better way?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1411.8899999999999,"endTime":1415.04,"body":"This is a way that brings"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1411.8899999999999,"endTime":1415.04,"body":"justice and healing and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1415.04,"endTime":1418.6399999999999,"body":"righteousness in the place that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1415.04,"endTime":1418.6399999999999,"body":"is so desperately needed."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1419.6,"endTime":1421.37,"body":"All right, Josh,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1419.6,"endTime":1421.37,"body":"you're gonna think this is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1421.7,"endTime":1426.71,"body":"trite. Alright, but I'm going to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1421.7,"endTime":1426.71,"body":"make an argument. It's not"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1427.76,"endTime":1433.01,"body":"Christians, gathering in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1427.76,"endTime":1433.01,"body":"Bethlehem, or other Palestinian"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1433.01,"endTime":1440.36,"body":"cities, inviting Palestinian"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1433.01,"endTime":1440.36,"body":"Arab Christians, together with"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1440.36,"endTime":1446.3,"body":"Jewish peoples around the same"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1440.36,"endTime":1446.3,"body":"table, until we figure out how"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1446.3,"endTime":1449.0,"body":"to love one another, and let"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1446.3,"endTime":1449.0,"body":"Gee, here's what I'm gonna say,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1449.27,"endTime":1455.33,"body":"let Jesus work. And I just"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1449.27,"endTime":1455.33,"body":"believe that's the way true,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1455.6299999999999,"endTime":1459.02,"body":"incredible revolutions going to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1455.6299999999999,"endTime":1459.02,"body":"happen. I've got examples in the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1459.02,"endTime":1464.0,"body":"book, I talk, I talk a lot about"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1459.02,"endTime":1464.0,"body":"the Jim Crow South and John"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1464.0,"endTime":1468.56,"body":"Lewis, who was a pastor who and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1464.0,"endTime":1468.56,"body":"the Student Nonviolent"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1468.56,"endTime":1471.26,"body":"Coordinating Committees,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1468.56,"endTime":1471.26,"body":"basically out of prayer meeting"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1471.26,"endTime":1474.59,"body":"started meeting in Woolworths."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1471.26,"endTime":1474.59,"body":"At the counter there, three is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1474.59,"endTime":1478.4,"body":"four at a time, started out with"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1474.59,"endTime":1478.4,"body":"three little dinner fellowships"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1479.21,"endTime":1483.32,"body":"turned into 52. And before you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1479.21,"endTime":1483.32,"body":"know it, the Jim Crow hegemony,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1483.32,"endTime":1487.79,"body":"the etiology of Jim Crow, racism"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1483.32,"endTime":1487.79,"body":"was disrupted. And people"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1487.79,"endTime":1492.77,"body":"actually saw, Oh, we can meet,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1487.79,"endTime":1492.77,"body":"we can gather, we can eat"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1492.77,"endTime":1497.15,"body":"together, we can love one"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1492.77,"endTime":1497.15,"body":"another, and some some dynamic"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1497.15,"endTime":1500.84,"body":"stuff started to happen. I just"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1497.15,"endTime":1500.84,"body":"think that's the way true"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1500.84,"endTime":1501.83,"body":"revolutions happen."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1502.34,"endTime":1503.99,"body":"You know, as I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1502.34,"endTime":1503.99,"body":"worked in the Middle East's and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1503.99,"endTime":1506.84,"body":"work with Syrian refugees,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1503.99,"endTime":1506.84,"body":"primarily, they're the same"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1507.11,"endTime":1510.41,"body":"Sarbananda hubs of Milla after"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1507.11,"endTime":1510.41,"body":"we've eaten together basically"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1510.41,"endTime":1513.2,"body":"just means that we have eaten"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1510.41,"endTime":1513.2,"body":"together, bread and salt has"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1513.2,"endTime":1517.22,"body":"happened between us. And this is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1513.2,"endTime":1517.22,"body":"where friendship can now take"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1517.22,"endTime":1522.08,"body":"place. And only after we share a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1517.22,"endTime":1522.08,"body":"meal, can we enter into the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1522.08,"endTime":1527.93,"body":"space of knowing one another?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1522.08,"endTime":1527.93,"body":"And so that's primarily what we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1527.93,"endTime":1533.57,"body":"did. We went in to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1527.93,"endTime":1533.57,"body":"refugee homes. I mean, the homes"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1533.57,"endTime":1537.62,"body":"were like old goat sheds or"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1533.57,"endTime":1537.62,"body":"tents, or, you know, it was not"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1538.07,"endTime":1541.25,"body":"the greatest policy, but we sat"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1538.07,"endTime":1541.25,"body":"and we shared a meal. And after"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1541.25,"endTime":1545.24,"body":"we shared a meal, they wanted to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1541.25,"endTime":1545.24,"body":"know us, we wanted to know them,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1545.27,"endTime":1548.57,"body":"we could actually go deep. And"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1545.27,"endTime":1548.57,"body":"then there was a lot of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1548.57,"endTime":1552.05,"body":"encounter of Jesus because we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1548.57,"endTime":1552.05,"body":"were able to share a meal"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1552.05,"endTime":1557.48,"body":"together. So how do we end enter"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1552.05,"endTime":1557.48,"body":"into the table? The table that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1557.48,"endTime":1563.87,"body":"will reconcile us and show that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1557.48,"endTime":1563.87,"body":"there is a, a new way away of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1563.87,"endTime":1570.17,"body":"Jesus away that we can exercise"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1563.87,"endTime":1570.17,"body":"power, that God's power can be"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1570.17,"endTime":1573.05,"body":"utilized. And we could love one"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1570.17,"endTime":1573.05,"body":"another. How do we start to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1573.08,"endTime":1576.3799999999999,"body":"enter into table discussions?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1576.95,"endTime":1580.25,"body":"You know, I spent a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1576.95,"endTime":1580.25,"body":"significant portion of my"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1580.6399999999999,"endTime":1587.09,"body":"theological work, dissecting the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1580.6399999999999,"endTime":1587.09,"body":"table and dissecting the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1587.09,"endTime":1594.2,"body":"different parts and the way it"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1587.09,"endTime":1594.2,"body":"works in I'm just never ceases"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1594.23,"endTime":1600.95,"body":"to amaze me. How when we gather"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1594.23,"endTime":1600.95,"body":"around a table, and we just sit"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1600.95,"endTime":1606.23,"body":"there and listen to one another,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1600.95,"endTime":1606.23,"body":"and we we invite the presence of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1606.23,"endTime":1610.46,"body":"the Holy Spirit, they're no"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1606.23,"endTime":1610.46,"body":"different than the priest"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1611.03,"endTime":1616.91,"body":"invokes the Real Presence of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1611.03,"endTime":1616.91,"body":"Jesus at the Eucharist. And we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1616.91,"endTime":1620.93,"body":"then listen to one another, and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1616.91,"endTime":1620.93,"body":"we discerned together, Kingdom"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1620.93,"endTime":1626.45,"body":"breaks out, I justice breaks"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1620.93,"endTime":1626.45,"body":"out, personal animosities are"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1626.45,"endTime":1633.11,"body":"healed. But But the story here,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1626.45,"endTime":1633.11,"body":"dude, is that for Americans who"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1633.11,"endTime":1638.12,"body":"are used to traditional church"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1633.11,"endTime":1638.12,"body":"ways, especially the modern"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1638.12,"endTime":1643.16,"body":"church ways of the last 50"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1638.12,"endTime":1643.16,"body":"years, it is so damn difficult"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1643.16,"endTime":1648.1399999999999,"body":"to get people to sit around a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1643.16,"endTime":1648.1399999999999,"body":"table for two and a half hours."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1648.83,"endTime":1653.69,"body":"And do that regularly, I prefer"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1648.83,"endTime":1653.69,"body":"once a week, and pray for our"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1653.69,"endTime":1657.47,"body":"neighborhoods, and make space"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1653.69,"endTime":1657.47,"body":"for God to work in our lives."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1657.92,"endTime":1660.8899999999999,"body":"I'm in a church right now. It's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1657.92,"endTime":1660.8899999999999,"body":"a fabulous church, I've been"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1660.8899999999999,"endTime":1664.8799999999999,"body":"asked to be a pastor at this"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1660.8899999999999,"endTime":1664.8799999999999,"body":"church and, and just getting"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1664.8799999999999,"endTime":1670.55,"body":"people to think about being"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1664.8799999999999,"endTime":1670.55,"body":"around a table is a challenge."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1670.6399999999999,"endTime":1675.44,"body":"It takes cultivation and vision."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1670.6399999999999,"endTime":1675.44,"body":"Well, but this is, you know,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1675.44,"endTime":1679.19,"body":"read a finger wrote, read a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1675.44,"endTime":1679.19,"body":"Haldeman finger wrote a book, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1679.19,"endTime":1683.12,"body":"can't now I can't remember, it's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1679.19,"endTime":1683.12,"body":"about the role of tables in X,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1683.48,"endTime":1690.26,"body":"and how the table disrupted"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1683.48,"endTime":1690.26,"body":"Roman culture and brought"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1690.29,"endTime":1695.27,"body":"healing and justice into the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1690.29,"endTime":1695.27,"body":"neighborhoods. Okay, so it might"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1695.27,"endTime":1699.23,"body":"sound so so but we have to have"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1695.27,"endTime":1699.23,"body":"leaders who have a vision for"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1699.23,"endTime":1704.33,"body":"the table, and table fellowship."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1699.23,"endTime":1704.33,"body":"And you know, someone, someone"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1704.33,"endTime":1706.85,"body":"asked me, What are you gonna do"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1704.33,"endTime":1706.85,"body":"about the racism in town here?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1707.54,"endTime":1710.27,"body":"And I say, Well, can you give me"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1707.54,"endTime":1710.27,"body":"an example. And they go off on"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1710.27,"endTime":1714.11,"body":"an example of, of a town"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1710.27,"endTime":1714.11,"body":"ordinance committee, and we, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1714.11,"endTime":1717.95,"body":"won't go into details on the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1714.11,"endTime":1717.95,"body":"show here. But one guy didn't"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1717.95,"endTime":1720.59,"body":"want a restaurant because of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1717.95,"endTime":1720.59,"body":"this isn't a goal. What are we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1720.59,"endTime":1723.68,"body":"going to do about it? Well, our"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1720.59,"endTime":1723.68,"body":"first impulse, and by the way, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1723.68,"endTime":1727.97,"body":"do believe in embodied presence,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1723.68,"endTime":1727.97,"body":"through protest, I believe, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1727.97,"endTime":1732.11,"body":"believe that's a form of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1727.97,"endTime":1732.11,"body":"presence. My first instinct,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1733.1299999999999,"endTime":1739.28,"body":"invite the guy to a table, have"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1733.1299999999999,"endTime":1739.28,"body":"a brew, and have a black person"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1739.28,"endTime":1744.11,"body":"from my neighborhood, a white"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1739.28,"endTime":1744.11,"body":"person, him or her. And let's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1744.11,"endTime":1748.01,"body":"sit around and talk about that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1744.11,"endTime":1748.01,"body":"restaurant, and why we would"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1748.01,"endTime":1750.77,"body":"love that restaurant, and what"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1748.01,"endTime":1750.77,"body":"that restaurant would do in our"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1750.77,"endTime":1754.37,"body":"community, and how it would"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1750.77,"endTime":1754.37,"body":"overcome some of the racial"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1754.37,"endTime":1758.03,"body":"stereotypes and the racism"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1754.37,"endTime":1758.03,"body":"that's endemic in our community."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1758.09,"endTime":1761.99,"body":"You know, a table let's start at"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1758.09,"endTime":1761.99,"body":"the table. Let's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1761.99,"endTime":1764.93,"body":"start at the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1761.99,"endTime":1764.93,"body":"table. I agree. Let's go just"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1764.93,"endTime":1767.69,"body":"have a beer. And we could even"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1764.93,"endTime":1767.69,"body":"just watch a hockey say"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1767.69,"endTime":1770.75,"body":"beer for all my"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1767.69,"endTime":1770.75,"body":"Christian friends out there."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1772.16,"endTime":1777.02,"body":"brew a beer you can either be a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1772.16,"endTime":1777.02,"body":"coffee or a beer. There it is."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1779.81,"endTime":1782.6299999999999,"body":"There it is,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1779.81,"endTime":1782.6299999999999,"body":"yeah, had a good conversation"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1782.6299999999999,"endTime":1788.51,"body":"with the CMA pastor yesterday,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1782.6299999999999,"endTime":1788.51,"body":"so they're out there. We love"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1788.51,"endTime":1792.08,"body":"them. And I know you do too,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1788.51,"endTime":1792.08,"body":"because you're part of them. We"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1853.66,"endTime":1858.25,"body":"had so let's, let's then dive"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1853.66,"endTime":1858.25,"body":"into the local church, and how"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1858.25,"endTime":1862.54,"body":"do we exercise power? So you"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1858.25,"endTime":1862.54,"body":"gave me an example of, of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1862.57,"endTime":1866.02,"body":"Marcel, Mark Driscoll, you know,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1862.57,"endTime":1866.02,"body":"at the beginning of Mars Hill,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1866.41,"endTime":1869.86,"body":"they said, Let's mutually submit"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1866.41,"endTime":1869.86,"body":"one to another. There is no"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1869.86,"endTime":1873.73,"body":"senior senior pastor. And then"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1869.86,"endTime":1873.73,"body":"later on, he's like, Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1873.73,"endTime":1876.85,"body":"forget that. You know, just get"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1873.73,"endTime":1876.85,"body":"on the bus. And we're, I'm"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1876.85,"endTime":1883.18,"body":"gonna, you know, run you over."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1876.85,"endTime":1883.18,"body":"So how do we, how do we lead a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1883.18,"endTime":1887.8,"body":"church? Can we lead a church?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1883.18,"endTime":1887.8,"body":"Or, like, what does it look like"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1888.19,"endTime":1891.58,"body":"to mutually submit one to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1888.19,"endTime":1891.58,"body":"another as the body of Christ,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1891.61,"endTime":1898.18,"body":"which I believe we need to do,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1891.61,"endTime":1898.18,"body":"but also have a leadership team,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1898.33,"endTime":1903.88,"body":"you know, your pastor and, and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1898.33,"endTime":1903.88,"body":"your local church as part of a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1903.88,"endTime":1909.28,"body":"team that's helping Shepherd"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1903.88,"endTime":1909.28,"body":"others? How do we do both?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1910.09,"endTime":1915.43,"body":"Yeah, I think that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1910.09,"endTime":1915.43,"body":"a lot of people hearing me talk"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1915.43,"endTime":1920.59,"body":"today. Thank you. Oh, this is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1915.43,"endTime":1920.59,"body":"impractical. This will never"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1920.59,"endTime":1925.54,"body":"work, we'll never get anything"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1920.59,"endTime":1925.54,"body":"done. And I think that's kind of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1925.54,"endTime":1931.03,"body":"like, the people think there's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1925.54,"endTime":1931.03,"body":"only two ways there's autocracy,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1931.54,"endTime":1934.51,"body":"where one person is in charge"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1931.54,"endTime":1934.51,"body":"and tells the other person's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1934.51,"endTime":1938.86,"body":"what to do, or there's democracy"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1934.51,"endTime":1938.86,"body":"where every individual has their"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1938.86,"endTime":1942.67,"body":"own opinion. And rarely do we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1938.86,"endTime":1942.67,"body":"agree on anything. So rarely do"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1942.67,"endTime":1948.76,"body":"we do anything? Well, this is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1942.67,"endTime":1948.76,"body":"just not the way the church is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1948.76,"endTime":1952.0,"body":"described in New Testament."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1948.76,"endTime":1952.0,"body":"autocracy is not the way"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1952.33,"endTime":1958.18,"body":"democracy is not the way I would"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1952.33,"endTime":1958.18,"body":"call it no Matok cracy. Okay."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1958.42,"endTime":1963.55,"body":"And so what we do is, and by the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1958.42,"endTime":1963.55,"body":"way, there's, there's this idea"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1963.55,"endTime":1970.39,"body":"of the way the gifts work in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1963.55,"endTime":1970.39,"body":"mutuality together. And so, uh,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1970.39,"endTime":1974.26,"body":"but they're still first gifts,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1970.39,"endTime":1974.26,"body":"like in the end of First"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1974.26,"endTime":1978.1,"body":"Corinthians 12. It's first,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1974.26,"endTime":1978.1,"body":"apostles, then prophets and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1978.1,"endTime":1983.71,"body":"evangelists. And so, so the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1978.1,"endTime":1983.71,"body":"apostles go first, frankly, the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1983.71,"endTime":1987.01,"body":"ones who are leading into a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1983.71,"endTime":1987.01,"body":"place who have a vision, but"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1987.01,"endTime":1991.12,"body":"that, but the Apostle Paul is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1987.01,"endTime":1991.12,"body":"Tim gambeson, his latest book"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1991.36,"endTime":1995.35,"body":"shows from last year, Apostle"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1991.36,"endTime":1995.35,"body":"Paul never exerted power over he"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1995.35,"endTime":2000.0,"body":"was always viewing the people he"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":1995.35,"endTime":2000.0,"body":"worked with as CO laborers, he"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2000.0,"endTime":2004.2,"body":"refused to exert power over, he"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2000.0,"endTime":2004.2,"body":"said, I must be present among"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2004.2,"endTime":2010.62,"body":"you. And so. So the first gifts"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2004.2,"endTime":2010.62,"body":"don't exert power over like,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2010.65,"endTime":2014.01,"body":"like, I'm kind of like an"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2010.65,"endTime":2014.01,"body":"apostle. I've been part of like"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2014.04,"endTime":2017.34,"body":"a church plants. I love church"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2014.04,"endTime":2017.34,"body":"planting, I love going into a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2017.34,"endTime":2021.12,"body":"new turf, and say, What's going"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2017.34,"endTime":2021.12,"body":"on here, Lord, and how can we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2021.12,"endTime":2023.97,"body":"gather your people to be a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2021.12,"endTime":2023.97,"body":"witness to your kingdom? But you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2023.97,"endTime":2026.55,"body":"know, I gotta go in and I got to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2023.97,"endTime":2026.55,"body":"paint a vision, I gotta call"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2026.55,"endTime":2030.33,"body":"people into that. But then I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2026.55,"endTime":2030.33,"body":"gotta, I gotta go. Do you see"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2030.33,"endTime":2037.62,"body":"what I'm saying? I propose this."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2030.33,"endTime":2037.62,"body":"Do you see this? Or, and then so"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2037.62,"endTime":2041.7,"body":"and so says, Well, I'm a pastor,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2037.62,"endTime":2041.7,"body":"and that, that really ignores"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2041.91,"endTime":2045.33,"body":"the spiritual needs of these"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2041.91,"endTime":2045.33,"body":"people, or I'm an evangelist,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2045.33,"endTime":2048.66,"body":"and I don't think we're dealing"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2045.33,"endTime":2048.66,"body":"with justice. And together, we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2048.66,"endTime":2054.27,"body":"submit one to another. But as I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2048.66,"endTime":2054.27,"body":"often in Pastor meetings, say,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2055.44,"endTime":2061.2,"body":"make a proposal. I propose we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2055.44,"endTime":2061.2,"body":"need to do a, I submit to you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2061.38,"endTime":2063.8399999999997,"body":"and the other pastors in the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2061.38,"endTime":2063.8399999999997,"body":"group, because it's always"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2064.3199999999997,"endTime":2068.73,"body":"polycentric always multiple"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2064.3199999999997,"endTime":2068.73,"body":"teams, multiple guests, they"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2068.73,"endTime":2072.81,"body":"will say, Yeah, I like a but"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2068.73,"endTime":2072.81,"body":"gives you thought about what"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2072.81,"endTime":2075.72,"body":"you're missing with a, so"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2072.81,"endTime":2075.72,"body":"becomes a plus b. And by the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2075.72,"endTime":2079.2,"body":"time we're done in an hour and a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2075.72,"endTime":2079.2,"body":"half, two hours, we have a great"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2079.2,"endTime":2086.73,"body":"proposal that we have said, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2079.2,"endTime":2086.73,"body":"that the mind of Christ has been"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2086.73,"endTime":2090.0899999999997,"body":"met here, let's go forward with"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2086.73,"endTime":2090.0899999999997,"body":"it. And that's how I think"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2090.0899999999997,"endTime":2092.58,"body":"leadership happens. And at"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2090.0899999999997,"endTime":2092.58,"body":"least, you know, Ephesians, four"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2092.58,"endTime":2095.85,"body":"has the fivefold that, that then"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2092.58,"endTime":2095.85,"body":"equip the rest of the church to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2095.85,"endTime":2099.3599999999997,"body":"do the same thing. First"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2095.85,"endTime":2099.3599999999997,"body":"Corinthians 12, has these"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2099.3599999999997,"endTime":2102.48,"body":"initial first gifts, that then"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2099.3599999999997,"endTime":2102.48,"body":"equip the rest of the church to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2102.48,"endTime":2106.62,"body":"do the same thing. I think"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2102.48,"endTime":2106.62,"body":"that's the way the best way. But"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2106.62,"endTime":2110.2200000000003,"body":"in Christendom, you know, very,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2106.62,"endTime":2110.2200000000003,"body":"somewhat inefficient, let's put"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2110.2200000000003,"endTime":2112.8900000000003,"body":"everything in the top down and,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2110.2200000000003,"endTime":2112.8900000000003,"body":"and get everything done"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2112.8900000000003,"endTime":2116.07,"body":"according to a corporate model."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2112.8900000000003,"endTime":2116.07,"body":"And we kind of lost the Holy"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2116.07,"endTime":2119.76,"body":"Spirit along the way. But we got"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2116.07,"endTime":2119.76,"body":"a lot done, or we thought we got"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2119.79,"endTime":2122.9100000000003,"body":"a lot done, we actually"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2119.79,"endTime":2122.9100000000003,"body":"preserved the church, we didn't"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2122.9100000000003,"endTime":2124.8,"body":"grow the church. Now."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2125.28,"endTime":2128.67,"body":"Yeah, we did get"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2125.28,"endTime":2128.67,"body":"a lot done. But then we saw the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2128.67,"endTime":2132.9300000000003,"body":"flaws in the cracks of it. And"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2128.67,"endTime":2132.9300000000003,"body":"we saw that it didn't amount to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2133.32,"endTime":2137.94,"body":"too much. And it was worldly"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2133.32,"endTime":2137.94,"body":"power that we were exerting in"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2137.94,"endTime":2142.44,"body":"the church, to have this Church"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2137.94,"endTime":2142.44,"body":"Growth Movement. And"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2143.19,"endTime":2149.01,"body":"unfortunately, we're seeing the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2143.19,"endTime":2149.01,"body":"the downfall of it at the moment"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2149.37,"endTime":2152.46,"body":"of what we're doing. I think"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2149.37,"endTime":2152.46,"body":"some people in the in a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2152.46,"endTime":2156.81,"body":"congregation is going to say,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2152.46,"endTime":2156.81,"body":"and I know especially if we're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2156.84,"endTime":2160.35,"body":"we're looking at the church"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2156.84,"endTime":2160.35,"body":"through the lens of worldly"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2160.35,"endTime":2163.92,"body":"power, they would still say that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2160.35,"endTime":2163.92,"body":"there are our gifts and a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2163.92,"endTime":2166.14,"body":"leadership team that are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2163.92,"endTime":2166.14,"body":"mutually submitting one to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2166.14,"endTime":2168.87,"body":"another. And then they're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2166.14,"endTime":2168.87,"body":"saying, Hey, this is what we're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2168.87,"endTime":2172.77,"body":"doing as a church, but there"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2168.87,"endTime":2172.77,"body":"wasn't much say from the rest of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2172.98,"endTime":2177.36,"body":"the congregation. And they go,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2172.98,"endTime":2177.36,"body":"it feels it still feels"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2177.36,"endTime":2181.92,"body":"controlling, like we're in this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2177.36,"endTime":2181.92,"body":"this moment. today. I think that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2182.28,"endTime":2186.9,"body":"sometimes, if you're viewing it"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2182.28,"endTime":2186.9,"body":"through a worldly power, it will"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2186.9,"endTime":2192.48,"body":"feel controlling. How do we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2186.9,"endTime":2192.48,"body":"reconcile that as the body"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2192.9,"endTime":2193.83,"body":"moving forward?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2194.16,"endTime":2199.92,"body":"Yeah. Well, we are"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2194.16,"endTime":2199.92,"body":"coming out of a world of church"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2200.61,"endTime":2205.86,"body":"where we a we're used to worldly"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2200.61,"endTime":2205.86,"body":"power or coercive power or the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2205.86,"endTime":2211.56,"body":"power of office over getting a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2205.86,"endTime":2211.56,"body":"lot done. I must acknowledge"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2212.01,"endTime":2216.33,"body":"that even though there was the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2212.01,"endTime":2216.33,"body":"official clergy office say 50"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2216.33,"endTime":2219.6,"body":"years ago, a lot of them are"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2216.33,"endTime":2219.6,"body":"humble leaders submitting to the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2219.6,"endTime":2221.82,"body":"congregation. So I don't want to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2219.6,"endTime":2221.82,"body":"throw everybody under the bus."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2222.6,"endTime":2226.86,"body":"But we are used to that."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2222.6,"endTime":2226.86,"body":"Secondly, we're mad and angry"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2226.86,"endTime":2230.07,"body":"and resentful that because a lot"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2226.86,"endTime":2230.07,"body":"of us have come out of abusive"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2230.46,"endTime":2234.51,"body":"uses of that, because frankly,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2230.46,"endTime":2234.51,"body":"when you put worldly power under"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2234.51,"endTime":2238.95,"body":"God's name, all that goes off"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2234.51,"endTime":2238.95,"body":"the rails, all the restrictions"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2238.95,"endTime":2241.59,"body":"are taken off, and now the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2238.95,"endTime":2241.59,"body":"person can go abuse anybody they"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2241.59,"endTime":2245.73,"body":"want, why? Because they're doing"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2241.59,"endTime":2245.73,"body":"it for God. Okay, and so we're"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2245.73,"endTime":2250.02,"body":"coming out of that. And so now"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2245.73,"endTime":2250.02,"body":"anything that smacks of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2250.02,"endTime":2256.74,"body":"authority is viewed with some"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2250.02,"endTime":2256.74,"body":"suspicion. And so in my"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2256.74,"endTime":2260.7,"body":"experience, I've, I've, we've"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2256.74,"endTime":2260.7,"body":"got to train people out of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2260.7,"endTime":2263.55,"body":"autocracy, but we also got to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2260.7,"endTime":2263.55,"body":"train them out of democracy."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2264.27,"endTime":2266.1,"body":"Because a lot of people think,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2264.27,"endTime":2266.1,"body":"well, we're just gonna have a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2266.1,"endTime":2270.03,"body":"democracy. So one person gets to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2266.1,"endTime":2270.03,"body":"hold up the whole church,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2270.3,"endTime":2275.49,"body":"because he or she's got a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2270.3,"endTime":2275.49,"body":"bugaboo, something that is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2275.49,"endTime":2278.67,"body":"really bugging them. And that's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2275.49,"endTime":2278.67,"body":"not the church either. So we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2278.67,"endTime":2283.92,"body":"need to recognize gifts, the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2278.67,"endTime":2283.92,"body":"gifts of the Holy Spirit and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2283.92,"endTime":2287.76,"body":"learn how to discern and submit"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2283.92,"endTime":2287.76,"body":"to the gifts of the Holy Spirit."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2287.97,"endTime":2291.87,"body":"And, and when it's when it's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2287.97,"endTime":2291.87,"body":"worldly power, you can always"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2291.87,"endTime":2294.99,"body":"tell worldly power, because it"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2291.87,"endTime":2294.99,"body":"becomes abusive, you're not"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2294.99,"endTime":2299.82,"body":"listened to, you're not heard,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2294.99,"endTime":2299.82,"body":"but together. So I give a few"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2299.85,"endTime":2304.32,"body":"few practices in the last"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2299.85,"endTime":2304.32,"body":"chapter of reckoning with power,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2304.53,"endTime":2308.31,"body":"and how to think about that even"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2304.53,"endTime":2308.31,"body":"if a church is quite large. Like"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2308.31,"endTime":2310.95,"body":"Like, frankly, I don't know if"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2308.31,"endTime":2310.95,"body":"you can do this in a 10,000"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2310.95,"endTime":2317.52,"body":"member church. But 500 400 If"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2310.95,"endTime":2317.52,"body":"there's an issue in the church,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2317.52,"endTime":2322.92,"body":"we are having a struggle to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2317.52,"endTime":2322.92,"body":"discern how to shape our church,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2323.19,"endTime":2327.36,"body":"in relation to sexuality. Let's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2323.19,"endTime":2327.36,"body":"everyone who wants to talk about"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2327.36,"endTime":2331.44,"body":"this, who, who will spend the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2327.36,"endTime":2331.44,"body":"next 10 weeks on a Friday night"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2331.44,"endTime":2335.1,"body":"till midnight, discerning the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2331.44,"endTime":2335.1,"body":"spirit, hearing scripture,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2335.22,"endTime":2339.21,"body":"hearing the voices of the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2335.22,"endTime":2339.21,"body":"hurting and the broken, we're"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2339.21,"endTime":2344.13,"body":"going to meet for the next 10"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2339.21,"endTime":2344.13,"body":"weeks, PRAY, LISTEN to the gifts"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2344.19,"endTime":2347.4,"body":"and discern for our"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2344.19,"endTime":2347.4,"body":"congregation, the steps we need"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2347.4,"endTime":2353.43,"body":"to take to be a congregation"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2347.4,"endTime":2353.43,"body":"that both in is inclusive, but"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2353.43,"endTime":2358.32,"body":"also shaping of a sexuality that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2353.43,"endTime":2358.32,"body":"is faithful to Christ, and not"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2358.32,"endTime":2362.37,"body":"giving into the sexualization of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2358.32,"endTime":2362.37,"body":"our culture. You know, that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2362.4,"endTime":2365.49,"body":"that's what I call the egg"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2362.4,"endTime":2365.49,"body":"Foose, meaning it seems good to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2365.55,"endTime":2368.97,"body":"the Holy Spirit and to us, how"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2365.55,"endTime":2368.97,"body":"do we discern that together?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2370.139,"endTime":2372.089,"body":"That's good"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2370.139,"endTime":2372.089,"body":"question. How do we discern that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2372.089,"endTime":2376.199,"body":"together? So how do we discern"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2372.089,"endTime":2376.199,"body":"the Holy Spirit? How do we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2376.229,"endTime":2380.759,"body":"communally listen to gather and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2376.229,"endTime":2380.759,"body":"discern the Holy Spirit to move"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2380.759,"endTime":2384.929,"body":"forward said no, that it sounds"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2380.759,"endTime":2384.929,"body":"good to us and the Holy Spirit?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2385.439,"endTime":2388.499,"body":"Yeah, yeah. I mean,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2385.439,"endTime":2388.499,"body":"I give a you have a few steps."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2388.529,"endTime":2392.129,"body":"But But this has been in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2388.529,"endTime":2392.129,"body":"practice for hundreds of years,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2392.129,"endTime":2395.489,"body":"the the Anabaptist were a group"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2392.129,"endTime":2395.489,"body":"that brought it to the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2395.489,"endTime":2398.099,"body":"forefront. Actually, the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2395.489,"endTime":2398.099,"body":"Methodists in certain parts of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2398.099,"endTime":2401.639,"body":"their movement, brought it the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2398.099,"endTime":2401.639,"body":"society meeting, they brought it"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2401.639,"endTime":2407.849,"body":"forward, the solemn assemblies"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2401.639,"endTime":2407.849,"body":"of certain groups, and simply is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2407.849,"endTime":2411.419,"body":"gathering together and praying."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2407.849,"endTime":2411.419,"body":"And then the leader leads"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2411.419,"endTime":2414.779,"body":"through what is our question?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2411.419,"endTime":2414.779,"body":"And then we hear from the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2414.779,"endTime":2419.849,"body":"teachers from Scripture, the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2414.779,"endTime":2419.849,"body":"ones that are already respected"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2419.849,"endTime":2422.819,"body":"in our church for teaching. But"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2419.849,"endTime":2422.819,"body":"we also hear from the pastor's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2423.269,"endTime":2426.629,"body":"the ones who are concerned for"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2423.269,"endTime":2426.629,"body":"the, for the real needs, hurting"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2426.629,"endTime":2431.549,"body":"needs of our carry, we hear from"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2426.629,"endTime":2431.549,"body":"the evangelists in our midst,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2431.759,"endTime":2435.599,"body":"what does this mean for justice,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2431.759,"endTime":2435.599,"body":"and together, we discern, we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2435.599,"endTime":2440.789,"body":"hear from everybody, and a good"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2435.599,"endTime":2440.789,"body":"leader will be able to craft a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2440.969,"endTime":2447.779,"body":"summation of what she or he is"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2440.969,"endTime":2447.779,"body":"hearing. And then we take, or we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2447.779,"endTime":2452.009,"body":"don't take a vote, we take a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2447.779,"endTime":2452.009,"body":"consensus. One to five, one of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2452.009,"endTime":2457.169,"body":"my favorite one to five meetings"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2452.009,"endTime":2457.169,"body":"was when we spent six weeks on"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2457.169,"endTime":2462.419,"body":"women in ministry, can women be"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2457.169,"endTime":2462.419,"body":"ordained in our particular"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2462.419,"endTime":2468.239,"body":"church for pastoral ministry,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2462.419,"endTime":2468.239,"body":"and 30 people showed up? And the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2468.239,"endTime":2472.499,"body":"two that were most adamant"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2468.239,"endTime":2472.499,"body":"against it, you know, one to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2472.499,"endTime":2476.849,"body":"five, one, it's, it's evil. It's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2472.499,"endTime":2476.849,"body":"of Satan. The statement five,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2476.999,"endTime":2482.159,"body":"totally agree four. I don't"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2476.999,"endTime":2482.159,"body":"totally agree. But I sense the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2482.159,"endTime":2486.209,"body":"Holy Spirit at work in this, and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2482.159,"endTime":2486.209,"body":"I can go along with it. Okay."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2486.299,"endTime":2491.789,"body":"And so those two were forests."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2486.299,"endTime":2491.789,"body":"And I must say, they were fours."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2491.879,"endTime":2494.129,"body":"They didn't totally agree with"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2491.879,"endTime":2494.129,"body":"where we came up. But they said,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2494.129,"endTime":2498.269,"body":"I trust what I've seen, what"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2494.129,"endTime":2498.269,"body":"I've heard. And we can go"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2498.269,"endTime":2501.989,"body":"forward of this because I trust"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2498.269,"endTime":2501.989,"body":"this community now. And I think"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2501.989,"endTime":2506.549,"body":"that's the kind of thing we need"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2501.989,"endTime":2506.549,"body":"in our churches, on some of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2506.549,"endTime":2510.419,"body":"these key issues we're facing as"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2506.549,"endTime":2510.419,"body":"we discern the future of a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2510.419,"endTime":2513.119,"body":"church and mission in the United"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2510.419,"endTime":2513.119,"body":"States, Canada."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2513.479,"endTime":2515.789,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2513.479,"endTime":2515.789,"body":"that's so good. That's really"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2515.789,"endTime":2520.049,"body":"good. I think I've a lot of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2515.789,"endTime":2520.049,"body":"people that really want to see"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2520.049,"endTime":2524.909,"body":"cultures transforms, they want"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2520.049,"endTime":2524.909,"body":"to engage on the margins and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2524.939,"endTime":2530.249,"body":"neglected people. They want some"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2524.939,"endTime":2530.249,"body":"evangelism, some mission. What"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2530.249,"endTime":2534.119,"body":"does it look like for people to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2530.249,"endTime":2534.119,"body":"encounter Jesus, you have this,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2534.659,"endTime":2539.489,"body":"this great sentence is a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2534.659,"endTime":2539.489,"body":"paragraph on evangelism, I want"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2539.489,"endTime":2543.959,"body":"to read it because I really"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2539.489,"endTime":2543.959,"body":"resonated with it. So this is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2544.529,"endTime":2548.939,"body":"right at the very end of your"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2544.529,"endTime":2548.939,"body":"book, it says, We must train"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2548.939,"endTime":2551.669,"body":"ourselves to do something so"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2548.939,"endTime":2551.669,"body":"foreign to our age into the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2551.669,"endTime":2555.569,"body":"evangelism strategies of times"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2551.669,"endTime":2555.569,"body":"past, the present in the hurting"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2555.569,"endTime":2559.289,"body":"places where we live, sit at"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2555.569,"endTime":2559.289,"body":"tables with people, listen, be"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2559.289,"endTime":2563.489,"body":"regular, allow space for the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2559.289,"endTime":2563.489,"body":"spirit to work, know how to ask"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2563.489,"endTime":2567.809,"body":"questions, speak truth,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2563.489,"endTime":2567.809,"body":"sincerely, offer reconciliation."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2568.199,"endTime":2571.649,"body":"invite people into the kingdom,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2568.199,"endTime":2571.649,"body":"invite them to accept Jesus as"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2571.649,"endTime":2574.979,"body":"Lord over our lives, our towns,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2571.649,"endTime":2574.979,"body":"allowing him to use his"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2574.979,"endTime":2578.519,"body":"wonderworking power in their"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2574.979,"endTime":2578.519,"body":"lives. This kind of evangelism"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2578.519,"endTime":2582.779,"body":"is the mark of a church on the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2578.519,"endTime":2582.779,"body":"right side of power. How is that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2582.779,"endTime":2587.099,"body":"different than the evangelism"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2582.779,"endTime":2587.099,"body":"that we have typically engaged"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2587.099,"endTime":2587.309,"body":"in?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2589.08,"endTime":2591.78,"body":"Well, most of us"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2589.08,"endTime":2591.78,"body":"haven't been engaging in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2591.9,"endTime":2599.7,"body":"evangelists for quite some time,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2591.9,"endTime":2599.7,"body":"the coercive tactics of the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2599.7,"endTime":2603.63,"body":"past, by the way, they worked"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2599.7,"endTime":2603.63,"body":"when the majority culture was"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2603.63,"endTime":2607.59,"body":"Christian, like, you know, you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2603.63,"endTime":2607.59,"body":"you, you have a Billy Graham"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2607.59,"endTime":2613.11,"body":"crusade, God bless, Billy, but"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2607.59,"endTime":2613.11,"body":"you have a Billy Graham crusade"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2613.14,"endTime":2616.68,"body":"and you convince everybody"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2613.14,"endTime":2616.68,"body":"they're going to hell, that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2616.68,"endTime":2622.56,"body":"they're sinners in need of a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2616.68,"endTime":2622.56,"body":"salvation. Now, those words sin"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2622.56,"endTime":2627.72,"body":"and salvation and hell, and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2622.56,"endTime":2627.72,"body":"Jesus in atonement for your sin."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2628.23,"endTime":2632.79,"body":"That was probably mainstream"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2628.23,"endTime":2632.79,"body":"culture, maybe 5060 years ago,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2632.82,"endTime":2636.27,"body":"wasn't unheard of, even for"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2632.82,"endTime":2636.27,"body":"people that didn't go to church"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2636.27,"endTime":2641.07,"body":"to know what some of those words"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2636.27,"endTime":2641.07,"body":"meant. And so when you, you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2641.07,"endTime":2644.25,"body":"know, when you ask somebody and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2641.07,"endTime":2644.25,"body":"challenged somebody with that,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2644.88,"endTime":2649.38,"body":"kind of, yeah, it's coercion,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2644.88,"endTime":2649.38,"body":"but it's assuming, by the way"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2649.38,"endTime":2652.44,"body":"that everyone's got this problem"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2649.38,"endTime":2652.44,"body":"before he even talked to him."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2652.74,"endTime":2655.71,"body":"It's all sorts of problems with"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2652.74,"endTime":2655.71,"body":"that. But when you got to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2655.71,"endTime":2659.28,"body":"hegemony, this culture, you can"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2655.71,"endTime":2659.28,"body":"get away with it. We don't"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2659.31,"endTime":2665.25,"body":"anymore. And so that's, that's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2659.31,"endTime":2665.25,"body":"ideally not the way what would"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2665.25,"endTime":2668.28,"body":"that did was that took passive"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2665.25,"endTime":2668.28,"body":"Christians and made them active"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2668.28,"endTime":2670.98,"body":"Christians and invited them into"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2668.28,"endTime":2670.98,"body":"a personal relationship, it"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2670.98,"endTime":2674.67,"body":"comes out of all the revivalist"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2670.98,"endTime":2674.67,"body":"movements of the of the previous"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2674.67,"endTime":2679.62,"body":"period in the United States. So"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2674.67,"endTime":2679.62,"body":"when you do that today, darn it,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2679.65,"endTime":2684.24,"body":"it's so coarse. When you, you're"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2679.65,"endTime":2684.24,"body":"a sinner, I'm going to prove it"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2684.24,"endTime":2688.92,"body":"to you. Really, you know, this"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2684.24,"endTime":2688.92,"body":"is the biggest turnoff, ever."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2689.4,"endTime":2692.46,"body":"And so no wonder most Christians"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2689.4,"endTime":2692.46,"body":"don't want to do evangelism if"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2692.46,"endTime":2697.05,"body":"they learned it that way. But"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2692.46,"endTime":2697.05,"body":"man, salvage evangelism is the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2697.05,"endTime":2702.81,"body":"good news of what God has done"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2697.05,"endTime":2702.81,"body":"in Christ, to restore and heal"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2702.84,"endTime":2707.37,"body":"the world, and restore and heal"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2702.84,"endTime":2707.37,"body":"you as part of healing the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2707.37,"endTime":2712.89,"body":"world. And it's so good, but you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2707.37,"endTime":2712.89,"body":"don't have to say a thing,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2712.89,"endTime":2717.51,"body":"frankly, you just have to go sit"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2712.89,"endTime":2717.51,"body":"there long enough, and allow the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2717.51,"endTime":2723.39,"body":"Spirit to work. And then you go,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2717.51,"endTime":2723.39,"body":"Hey, I think I saw Jesus at work"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2723.39,"endTime":2726.3,"body":"in your life, do you? Do you see"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2723.39,"endTime":2726.3,"body":"what I'm saying? Let the Holy"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2726.3,"endTime":2731.22,"body":"Spirit do the work. And it's a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2726.3,"endTime":2731.22,"body":"totally non coercive way that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2731.22,"endTime":2735.66,"body":"God works to bring people to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2731.22,"endTime":2735.66,"body":"Himself, it is so illustrated,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2735.99,"endTime":2740.88,"body":"is so well, in Luke 10, when"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2735.99,"endTime":2740.88,"body":"Jesus says, go there, sit at"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2740.88,"endTime":2746.13,"body":"tables, don't bring a purse, go"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2740.88,"endTime":2746.13,"body":"vulnerable, as sheep among"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2746.13,"endTime":2749.97,"body":"wolves. Sit and remain there,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2746.13,"endTime":2749.97,"body":"eat what set before you. In"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2749.97,"endTime":2755.16,"body":"other words, be a guest. You"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2749.97,"endTime":2755.16,"body":"have no power. And then when"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2755.16,"endTime":2760.8,"body":"somebody exposes that they are"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2755.16,"endTime":2760.8,"body":"sick, pray for and then when"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2760.8,"endTime":2766.44,"body":"they're healed, go, oh, that's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2760.8,"endTime":2766.44,"body":"the kingdom. I proclaim. Jesus"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2766.44,"endTime":2769.83,"body":"is Lord and he's working in your"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2766.44,"endTime":2769.83,"body":"life. Do you see it too? That's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2769.83,"endTime":2776.19,"body":"the model. I think of evangelism"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2769.83,"endTime":2776.19,"body":"always. Until culture became"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2776.19,"endTime":2780.66,"body":"hegemony this in terms of its"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2776.19,"endTime":2780.66,"body":"Christianity, and Bill Bright"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2780.66,"endTime":2785.19,"body":"published 4 billion, did you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2780.66,"endTime":2785.19,"body":"hear that billion copies of the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2785.19,"endTime":2788.76,"body":"four spiritualist, he's got the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2785.19,"endTime":2788.76,"body":"one way to talk about the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2788.76,"endTime":2791.61,"body":"gospel. That's good for"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2788.76,"endTime":2791.61,"body":"everybody. I got news for you."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2791.61,"endTime":2794.7,"body":"The Gospel meets you where"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2791.61,"endTime":2794.7,"body":"you're at, in whatever struggles"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2794.7,"endTime":2797.1,"body":"you're at. And it's different"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2794.7,"endTime":2797.1,"body":"for everybody."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2797.91,"endTime":2802.77,"body":"Amen. Amen. I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2797.91,"endTime":2802.77,"body":"love that. I love that. I think"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2802.77,"endTime":2807.09,"body":"that's, that's helpful. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2802.77,"endTime":2807.09,"body":"there's a few things that I wish"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2807.12,"endTime":2811.53,"body":"we would really dig into but I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2807.12,"endTime":2811.53,"body":"don't know if we have time. But"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2811.53,"endTime":2817.05,"body":"one thing that I do want to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2811.53,"endTime":2817.05,"body":"really racket in with is there's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2817.08,"endTime":2822.12,"body":"this encampment of the church"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2817.08,"endTime":2822.12,"body":"that says because there is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2822.12,"endTime":2826.02,"body":"worldly power, we we have to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2822.12,"endTime":2826.02,"body":"exert that in the world. So even"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2826.02,"endTime":2830.61,"body":"with with Christian nationalism,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2826.02,"endTime":2830.61,"body":"of, we have to preserve"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2830.67,"endTime":2836.28,"body":"Christianity within our culture."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2830.67,"endTime":2836.28,"body":"So I'm going to, I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2836.31,"endTime":2841.29,"body":"exert power over to be able to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2836.31,"endTime":2841.29,"body":"preserve Christianity within our"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2841.29,"endTime":2848.01,"body":"culture. How do we engage the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2841.29,"endTime":2848.01,"body":"culture without a power over"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2848.01,"endTime":2850.65,"body":"stance and exerting worldly"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2848.01,"endTime":2850.65,"body":"power?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2852.33,"endTime":2856.11,"body":"Yeah, I have a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2852.33,"endTime":2856.11,"body":"chapter on Christian nationalism"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2856.44,"endTime":2863.82,"body":"in the book is kind of a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2856.44,"endTime":2863.82,"body":"diagnosis. And this isn't"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2863.82,"endTime":2866.64,"body":"directly engineer question, but"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2863.82,"endTime":2866.64,"body":"I'm gonna get there. I think we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2866.64,"endTime":2870.03,"body":"need to understand all the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2866.64,"endTime":2870.03,"body":"Christian nationalists for"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2870.03,"endTime":2876.96,"body":"what's going on. And by the way,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2870.03,"endTime":2876.96,"body":"again, whenever you assume, to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2876.96,"endTime":2881.7,"body":"do God's work with worldly"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2876.96,"endTime":2881.7,"body":"power, bad things will"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2881.7,"endTime":2887.61,"body":"eventually happen. Bad, violent."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2881.7,"endTime":2887.61,"body":"And we all know what Christian"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2887.61,"endTime":2890.85,"body":"nationalism does, it turns we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2887.61,"endTime":2890.85,"body":"got people turned off the church"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2890.85,"endTime":2894.09,"body":"now faster and more furious than"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2890.85,"endTime":2894.09,"body":"we've ever had, over this"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2894.09,"endTime":2897.21,"body":"Christian nationalism thing. You"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2894.09,"endTime":2897.21,"body":"know, in, in Quebec, Canada,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2897.21,"endTime":2899.94,"body":"they had the quietest"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2897.21,"endTime":2899.94,"body":"revolution, the Roman Catholic"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2899.94,"endTime":2904.32,"body":"Church tried to take over Quebec"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2899.94,"endTime":2904.32,"body":"in the 30s 40s and 50s. And the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2904.32,"endTime":2909.51,"body":"whole culture went away from"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2904.32,"endTime":2909.51,"body":"Christianity, one away from"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2909.51,"endTime":2913.23,"body":"Catholicism, they actually use"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2909.51,"endTime":2913.23,"body":"Catholic words, as swear words,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2913.23,"endTime":2916.2,"body":"now in Quebec, this is an"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2913.23,"endTime":2916.2,"body":"illustration of what happens"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2916.2,"endTime":2920.82,"body":"when you use worldly power to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2916.2,"endTime":2920.82,"body":"accomplish God's purposes. And"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2920.82,"endTime":2927.0,"body":"so, again, we must I plea, that"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2920.82,"endTime":2927.0,"body":"for all the Christian"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2927.0,"endTime":2930.03,"body":"nationalists, there's still some"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2927.0,"endTime":2930.03,"body":"left that go, you know, the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2930.03,"endTime":2933.0,"body":"saint work and we can still have"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2930.03,"endTime":2933.0,"body":"a conversation with him. Do you"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2933.0,"endTime":2937.32,"body":"understand the way God wants to"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2933.0,"endTime":2937.32,"body":"work? And can we understand his"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2937.32,"endTime":2941.82,"body":"power? And can we now go be"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2937.32,"endTime":2941.82,"body":"present to his work in the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2941.82,"endTime":2945.51,"body":"neighborhoods, and so we will"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2941.82,"endTime":2945.51,"body":"engage culture, but it will"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2945.51,"endTime":2950.76,"body":"almost always be in the way God"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2945.51,"endTime":2950.76,"body":"came to engage culture, by"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2950.91,"endTime":2957.09,"body":"becoming present in flesh and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2950.91,"endTime":2957.09,"body":"blood, in a manger in Bethlehem,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2957.87,"endTime":2961.29,"body":"in a particular time and a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2957.87,"endTime":2961.29,"body":"particular place, and manifest"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2961.29,"endTime":2965.34,"body":"who he was to real people in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2961.29,"endTime":2965.34,"body":"real relationships, and it's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2965.34,"endTime":2969.84,"body":"spread from there. That's God's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2965.34,"endTime":2969.84,"body":"strategy. That's the way he"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2969.84,"endTime":2975.09,"body":"works. That's what he wants the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2969.84,"endTime":2975.09,"body":"church to be now. incarnational"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2975.09,"endTime":2979.86,"body":"presence of Jesus, his body, in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2975.09,"endTime":2979.86,"body":"the neighborhoods of all the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2979.86,"endTime":2983.52,"body":"hurting, and we start with the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2979.86,"endTime":2983.52,"body":"hurting. Why? Because, as James"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2983.52,"endTime":2987.99,"body":"Cohn as, as numerous other"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2983.52,"endTime":2987.99,"body":"liberation theologians have"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2987.99,"endTime":2990.09,"body":"reminded us, there's a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2987.99,"endTime":2990.09,"body":"privilege, there's an"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2990.09,"endTime":2994.29,"body":"epistemological openness there,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2990.09,"endTime":2994.29,"body":"to God, that is not present"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2994.29,"endTime":2997.41,"body":"amongst the affluent, and the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2994.29,"endTime":2997.41,"body":"people who don't think they need"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2997.41,"endTime":3003.05,"body":"it. And so and can we engage"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":2997.41,"endTime":3003.05,"body":"culture, the way Jesus the way"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3003.05,"endTime":3007.28,"body":"God engaged culture, in the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3003.05,"endTime":3007.28,"body":"person and work of Jesus, as"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3007.28,"endTime":3011.96,"body":"opposed to our own designs of"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3007.28,"endTime":3011.96,"body":"getting things done? And it"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3011.96,"endTime":3012.95,"body":"never works?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3014.3,"endTime":3019.58,"body":"Yes, I hope so."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3014.3,"endTime":3019.58,"body":"I, I really think that this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3019.91,"endTime":3024.11,"body":"reckoning with power book that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3019.91,"endTime":3024.11,"body":"you wrote, is really a crucial"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3024.11,"endTime":3028.73,"body":"read for the church, and for us"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3024.11,"endTime":3028.73,"body":"to start to engage the world in"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3028.73,"endTime":3031.52,"body":"a different way, and engage the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3028.73,"endTime":3031.52,"body":"church in different way and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3031.64,"endTime":3035.54,"body":"really heal from a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3031.64,"endTime":3035.54,"body":"abuse that is happening within"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3035.54,"endTime":3039.71,"body":"the church. I really have hoped"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3035.54,"endTime":3039.71,"body":"for this. What's your hope? For"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3039.71,"endTime":3043.13,"body":"this book? What what do you hope"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3039.71,"endTime":3043.13,"body":"that readers would get from"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3043.13,"endTime":3048.77,"body":"this? And what does our lives"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3043.13,"endTime":3048.77,"body":"look like if we truly do get it?"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3050.449,"endTime":3053.299,"body":"I mean, my first"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3050.449,"endTime":3053.299,"body":"impulse judge was just say, I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3053.299,"endTime":3058.489,"body":"hope people get saved. I hope"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3053.299,"endTime":3058.489,"body":"people is saved from their"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3058.489,"endTime":3065.479,"body":"addiction, to power and control"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3058.489,"endTime":3065.479,"body":"in politics, in, say, our own"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3065.479,"endTime":3070.639,"body":"families, in our churches, and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3065.479,"endTime":3070.639,"body":"that we can make space for the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3070.639,"endTime":3074.989,"body":"power and the presence of the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3070.639,"endTime":3074.989,"body":"living resurrected Christ be"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3074.989,"endTime":3078.619,"body":"among us through the Holy"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3074.989,"endTime":3078.619,"body":"Spirit, and do his work. I mean,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3078.709,"endTime":3083.479,"body":"that's really ostentatious and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3078.709,"endTime":3083.479,"body":"high. But but but this is what I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3083.479,"endTime":3086.299,"body":"think we need to do if we want"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3083.479,"endTime":3086.299,"body":"to see a renewal of the church"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3086.299,"endTime":3089.539,"body":"and a healing of the church and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3086.299,"endTime":3089.539,"body":"a healing of our culture in this"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3089.539,"endTime":3094.999,"body":"time. Those are my hopes, but I"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3089.539,"endTime":3094.999,"body":"have no, this is Jesus is Lord."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3095.269,"endTime":3097.969,"body":"I have I just put it out there"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3095.269,"endTime":3097.969,"body":"and see what he's going to do"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3097.969,"endTime":3098.449,"body":"with it."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3100.07,"endTime":3102.77,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3100.07,"endTime":3102.77,"body":"fantastic. random question."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3103.19,"endTime":3108.77,"body":"Here. At the end. What is the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3103.19,"endTime":3108.77,"body":"most memorable sporting event"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3108.77,"endTime":3113.48,"body":"that you have seen, that you"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3108.77,"endTime":3113.48,"body":"have engaged in either in person"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3113.48,"endTime":3117.17,"body":"or watch on TV? What was"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3113.48,"endTime":3117.17,"body":"something that was really"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3117.17,"endTime":3120.11,"body":"memorable? Well, it's a sporting"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3117.17,"endTime":3120.11,"body":"event for you. It"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3120.109,"endTime":3123.949,"body":"was the it was the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3120.109,"endTime":3123.949,"body":"first Stanley Cup of the Chicago"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3123.949,"endTime":3130.639,"body":"Blackhawks hockey folks. That's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3123.949,"endTime":3130.639,"body":"hockey 2010. I, I'm in a little"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3130.639,"endTime":3135.529,"body":"cabin in Canada. And the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3130.639,"endTime":3135.529,"body":"internet was really bad. And I'm"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3135.529,"endTime":3139.369,"body":"watching the last game there."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3135.529,"endTime":3139.369,"body":"And the internet's going in and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3139.369,"endTime":3143.779,"body":"out, and I'm freaking out. And"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3139.369,"endTime":3143.779,"body":"my son and I, and my wife. Oh,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3143.779,"endTime":3149.119,"body":"we're gonna miss it. But we did"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3143.779,"endTime":3149.119,"body":"catch Patrick Kane's famous goal"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3149.119,"endTime":3152.329,"body":"when they and we were out in a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3149.119,"endTime":3152.329,"body":"cabinet somewhere, but it was a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3152.329,"endTime":3157.069,"body":"rip roaring celebration all by"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3152.329,"endTime":3157.069,"body":"ourselves in a cabin, the first"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3157.069,"endTime":3162.109,"body":"Stanley Cup since the early"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3157.069,"endTime":3162.109,"body":"early 60s. So the one the first"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3162.109,"endTime":3164.779,"body":"one I'm really conscious of for"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3162.109,"endTime":3164.779,"body":"the Chicago Blackhawks, and I've"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3164.779,"endTime":3167.299,"body":"been a Blackhawks fan all my"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3164.779,"endTime":3167.299,"body":"life. Even when I grew up in"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3167.299,"endTime":3171.049,"body":"Canada. My mom was from Chicago."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3167.299,"endTime":3171.049,"body":"We love the Blackhawks."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3171.71,"endTime":3174.77,"body":"That's awesome."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3171.71,"endTime":3174.77,"body":"And that's just what a cool"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3174.77,"endTime":3177.98,"body":"story right in the middle of a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3174.77,"endTime":3177.98,"body":"cabin with your family sitting"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3177.98,"endTime":3183.23,"body":"around? Yeah, having this great"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3177.98,"endTime":3183.23,"body":"celebration of Stanley Cup."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3183.92,"endTime":3187.67,"body":"That's awesome. Yeah, other"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3183.92,"endTime":3187.67,"body":"precious memories. Really fun."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3187.67,"endTime":3190.79,"body":"Thanks for checking people go"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3187.67,"endTime":3190.79,"body":"out. How can people get your"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3190.79,"endTime":3193.88,"body":"book? Connect with you? Where"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3190.79,"endTime":3193.88,"body":"would you like to point people"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3193.88,"endTime":3195.02,"body":"to? Yeah,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3195.499,"endTime":3199.609,"body":"I'm on Twitter at"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3195.499,"endTime":3199.609,"body":"FIT chest fit ch e s. T. I'm on"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3199.609,"endTime":3202.609,"body":"Facebook, which is probably my"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3199.609,"endTime":3202.609,"body":"most lively platform where we"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3202.609,"endTime":3206.389,"body":"ask questions and you can engage"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3202.609,"endTime":3206.389,"body":"me and we can go back and forth"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3206.389,"endTime":3209.539,"body":"on all these issues. It's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3206.389,"endTime":3209.539,"body":"culture issues, nonstop. I have"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3209.539,"endTime":3213.679,"body":"a substack. Can't remember the"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3209.539,"endTime":3213.679,"body":"name of his David Fitch substack"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3213.679,"endTime":3216.049,"body":"or something. But you can find"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3213.679,"endTime":3216.049,"body":"me I call it fiches"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3216.049,"endTime":3220.729,"body":"provocations. And so yeah,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3216.049,"endTime":3220.729,"body":"you're all invited into this"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3220.729,"endTime":3225.469,"body":"long conversation for what God's"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3220.729,"endTime":3225.469,"body":"doing in this country. And, and"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3225.469,"endTime":3230.089,"body":"in Canada. We just pray for a"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3225.469,"endTime":3230.089,"body":"new outbreak of the Holy Spirit"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3230.509,"endTime":3233.479,"body":"through these conversations."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3230.509,"endTime":3233.479,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3233.66,"endTime":3236.3,"body":"Well, yes, let's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3233.66,"endTime":3236.3,"body":"have a new outbreak in the Holy"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3236.3,"endTime":3241.13,"body":"Spirit. And I think really, by"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3236.3,"endTime":3241.13,"body":"working with the Holy Spirit,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3241.13,"endTime":3245.24,"body":"starting to discern what he is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3241.13,"endTime":3245.24,"body":"doing, coming together in mutual"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3245.24,"endTime":3250.4,"body":"submission one to another, and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3245.24,"endTime":3250.4,"body":"then starting to engage at the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3250.4,"endTime":3254.06,"body":"table in conversation so that we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3250.4,"endTime":3254.06,"body":"could start to love one another."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3254.42,"endTime":3259.04,"body":"We could see what it looks like"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3254.42,"endTime":3259.04,"body":"to enter and to godly power and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3259.04,"endTime":3263.27,"body":"see God at work for healing and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3259.04,"endTime":3263.27,"body":"restoration and justice around"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3263.27,"endTime":3265.64,"body":"the world. Selfish. Thank you"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3263.27,"endTime":3265.64,"body":"for this conversation."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3266.57,"endTime":3267.05,"body":"Somewhere."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3267.05,"endTime":3269.84,"body":"By the way, Josh,"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3267.05,"endTime":3269.84,"body":"such a great summary of my book."},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3270.02,"endTime":3272.78,"body":"Thanks for having me. It's been"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3270.02,"endTime":3272.78,"body":"great to be with you. I'll see"},{"speaker":"David Fitch","startTime":3272.78,"endTime":3274.19,"body":"you in another year and a half."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3275.36,"endTime":3276.44,"body":"All right. Thank"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3275.36,"endTime":3276.44,"body":"you."}]}