Ep. 162 Joy Clarkson - The Metaphors that Give Meaning to Our Lives

In this episode, Joy Clarkson and I have a great conversation around the metaphors that shape our faith. We talk about rootedness when we are on the move. We get into bad metaphors we like to use that are harming the way we view ourselves – like we are a machine and cancer is a battle. We talk about paying attention to the season that we are in and the fruit that comes in time and in season. We talk birth and rebirth, the meaning of creation and paying attention to art and beauty to create meaning out of our lives. So join us as we dive into the metaphors that breathe meaning into our everyday lives.

Joy Clarkson is the author of Aggressively Happy and host of the popular podcast, Speaking with Joy. She is the books editor for Plough Quarterly and a research associate in theology and literature at King's College London. Joy completed her PhD in theology at the University of St Andrews, where she researched how art can be a resource of hope and consolation. Joy loves daffodils, birdwatching, and a well brewed cup of Yorkshire Gold tea. Learn more at JoyClarkson.com

Joy's Book:
You are a Tree

Joy's Recommendations:
The Map and the Territory
House, M.D.

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Joy Clarkson: 0:00

I think a lot of people are really discouraged in their faith because they see, perhaps you could say really big trees that have rotten fruit, you know that, that we see big leaders that we've all that are kind of distant and far away from us. And then over the years, you pick the fruit and you realize what's actually rotten and it could be really just distressing and discouraging. So I think that that kind of bringing us back to the small tree that bears much fruit is so important and encouraging. And so essential, just to remind us that it doesn't matter if we're the big tree if we have rotten fruit, you know that we need to have that that rudeness.

Joshua Johnson: 0:50

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create an impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ looked like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week. And go leave a rating and review. It's easy. It only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, family, your network, tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. We if you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Sharon hottie Miller, Kat Armis, and Jessica Hooton Wilson. You could go back, listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is joy Clarkson. Joy Clarkson is the author of aggressively happy and host of the popular podcast, speaking with joy. She is the book's editor at plow quarterly, and a research associate in theology and literature at King's College London, joy and I have a great conversation around the metaphors that shape our faith. We talk about rootedness. When we are on the move, we get into bad metaphors we like to use when that are harming the way that we view ourselves like, we are a machine and cancer is a battle. We talk about paying attention to the season that we're in, and the fruit that comes in time and in season. We talk birth and rebirth, the meaning of creation and paying attention to art and beauty to create meaning out of our lives. So join us as we dive into the metaphors that breathe meaning into our everyday lives. Here's my conversation with joy. Clarkson. Joy, welcome to the podcast, really excited to have you on. Thank you so much for joining me.

Joy Clarkson: 2:50

Yeah, I'm very happy to be here.

Joshua Johnson: 2:52

I would love to hear and start with how metaphor has really helped shape your face in your own life. I know you wrote this book, you're a tree. And it's not literal. It's a metaphor. So how have metaphors helped you in your faith?

Joy Clarkson: 3:09

Well, I think the first place to start would be to say that scripture has nourished my faith and Scripture is just absolutely packed full of metaphors. And, and I think that sometimes we can approach the Bible as a list of rules or kind of like, you know, where we go when we want to know what guidance we need for life. But when we do that, sometimes we miss the kind of rich poetic nature of so much of Scripture, which is really just a different way of saying lean, which missed the rich poetic nature of life that they're that we see meaning in that things in the world to give us words for kind of the invisible things that we experience. So a specific example of that is, in the book I opened by talking about kind of my experience of what you might call rootlessness. My family moved 17 times and six times internationally. And so when I came to the end of my doctoral studies, and I was facing another move, I just kind of had this be called an emotional crisis, but I think is a little bit of a spiritual crisis to have, you know, Where do I belong? Where am I meant to put my roots down? How can I? How can I invest in something in the world if I don't know where I belong? And I had this kind of moment where a metaphor came to me, which was I'm a potted plant. And I thought of this because I had been taking care of this little potted plant through the kind of last year by doctoral studies. And now that I was moving I was trying to decide what to do with it and it was kind of gotten to that place where it had grown a little bit too big for its pots a little stringy and I thought do I just throw it away? But that seems a shame I've been taking care of it and or do I give it to somebody else but then it's like, not the most attractive plant so you know, feel kind of bad hand hit on and then I thought, well, maybe I could plant it because I my flat was attached to this little garden a very old tree. And then I had this horrible note where I thought we'll have planted it might die, because a lot of times if you try to plant potted plants, they kind of root shock and they, they die. And then I thought, oh, no, I'm, I'm like a potted plant. You've I've just been growing this little tiny pot for years and years, and I'm too big for my pop. But if I don't put my roots down somewhere, we know what you've survived anybody. But then what if you put me down and I couldn't put down roots and being able to kind of articulate it, that's how I felt was greatly relieving. But then it also led me to start thinking about rootedness, and being planted and bearing fruit. And kind of sitting with that metaphor in Scripture. And especially in Psalm one, where it describes the blessed person, as a tree, you know, that is that is planted that is by streams of living water, so it's nourished by God, that bears fruit in seeds, and not all the time. And that has this kind of enduring sense of a flourishing. And so sitting with those metaphors kind of was a way that actually practically led me through the kind of crisis of feeling unrooted. And, and gave me words for that, and also gave me a sense of direction, you know, if I was feeling rootless that I needed a place to put down roots, and that doesn't always mean a literal place to buy is it means a person it means planting in relationships and and family, it could mean planting in your sense of vocation. It can mean planting in a denomination or in a, you know, in a, in a body of believers. But just having that language of metaphor from Scripture helped me think about how to move forward in my life.

Joshua Johnson: 6:40

So as you look back on your life, and you look back on a lot of moves, and a lot of going from one place to another, was there anything that helps keep you rooted while you were on the move? Yeah,

Joy Clarkson: 6:53

so I think the first thing that comes to mind is just relationships. So you know, I think if you talk to anybody who has had that experience of moving a lot, whether it was for military or for missions, or for ministry, in general, I think something that can be kind of really important is having a sense that there are people to whom you belong in the world, even if you don't belong to a particular place. And so I think, feeling close to my family, feeling like I had roots, you know, roots are those things that develop over many, many years. They're things that offer you nourishment, and they're things that are kind of under the surface of who you are, but that define who you are. And all of those things are things I get from my long term relationships with my family, and with others. So I think I think that was a big part of, of giving me a sense of rootedness even, even when I traveled around the world. And then I think, also, you know, this, this may sound very Christianese. But I think it is true, I think having a sense of identity in Christ. And as a Christian is also really important. I had this really cool experience recently where I was in Hong Kong, and I went to church at the oldest Chinese speaking church in in Hong Kong. And it just happens to be the same tradition. So I'm Anglican, and it's Anglican Church. And so I kind of knew the Ark of the service. And I had this sense that even though I was in a different place, spoke a different language for me, I belong to this place, because we're worshipping the same God. And it's even using the same kind of structure of the prayers you say, and the songs that you sing. And so I think even that, that sense of being rooted in the kingdom of God, and that you could find fellow believers anywhere in the world, and worship anywhere in the world is also something that's given me a sense of rootedness.

Joshua Johnson: 8:47

I think that's really helpful for a lot of people. A lot of people are on the move. And you know, I work with a lot of missionaries, and I help people. And that's a big concern with parents, with any non children going around the world. What does it look like to be rooted in a place and a people in Jesus in a way that doesn't give them a place of, you know, unsettledness that would help them wander through life? How does family help? As we go through these different seasons of life, if we're a tree and were looking at our different seasons, the seasons that were being nourished by by the river, God has given us nourishment, and we're bearing fruits in time? How does family and the people around us help us walk through the seasons that God has given us?

Joy Clarkson: 9:38

So to answer that, I'm going to do a little bit of tree nursery that which I did while I was perfect, let's do it. While I was researching for the book, which is that, you know, when you hear the metaphor, if you are a tree, it sounds very singular, right? Like it sounds like a tree is one thing, that kind of its own entity. But one of the really interesting things about trees if you kind of research them especially more recently, there's a great book called The Secret Life of trees is that they're actually very interdependent. And they're kind of like mother child relationships with various trees, you can have like a little offshoot. And there's this really interesting thing that they found in forests where even if there's a stump of a tree, so it has no leaves, which if we go back to our science lessons is a child would mean that it cannot photosynthesize to mean that it cannot live, they'll cut into it, and they'll still find green, because the other trees will send nourishment to that tree. That's, that's the stump through, through their roots through and through the fungi that kind of communicates well, communication system. And the reason I mentioned that, when you talk about kind of the seasons that we go through, is that I think that even if we think of ourselves as a tree, we think of ourselves as going through winter or being in a dry spell. We need other people sometimes to send nourishment to our roots, we we sometimes actually, no matter how dedicated we are, or how good our self care routine is, or how good our prayer is, we actually need the nourishment of other people, at certain seasons in our life. So I think I think that's an element of it. And I think also, having other people in these different seasons can help us recognize when we're having changing seasons, they can help you remember that you may be exhausted right now. And you're springtime season, you had a long winter, and this is actually it's good that you're exhausted, because it means that there's life and there's abundance, and having people who seem you over the long course of your life gives you perspective, I think that that just being alone or, or not having those long term relationships doesn't. So those are kind of two things that come to mind. One is that we need people sometimes to send us nourishment when we can't nourish ourselves. And that that's what trees do. And we're like a tree in that way. Trees are never just independent. And also that people having seen us through many seasons, gives us perspective and can give us encouragement, to kind of either endure or embrace or celebrate the season that we're in, even when we are kind of having a hard time getting that perspective ourselves.

Joshua Johnson: 12:09

So you talked to at the beginning of moving from a potted plant, to I am a tree and how that metaphor actually helped shape the way that you started thinking about your season and what you needed and what what God was doing in your life. At that point. What are some some metaphors that we use as humans that are not helpful to us that actually don't give us a flourishing beautiful life full of a wonder and amazement, but actually triggered it give us a place of of birth or death? Or are places where we don't feel like we're actually living? What are some bad metaphors that don't help us?

Joy Clarkson: 13:30

So I'll give you two off the top of my head. And I love this question. But I'll start with a little proviso, which is I'll say that I think all metaphors can bear some truth, like they can bear a little bit of truth. But there are some that are more appropriate than others. And also, I think that the danger often comes when we forget that they are metaphors that they don't encompass the whole truth. So one of a good example of that is, I think that we talk about this the book that talking about ourselves, like a machine or a computer is it's really easy to do, because we see machines and computers every Are you and I are talking through various machines, computers, microphones, headphones. So it makes sense that we often draw on machine computer language to describe ourselves. And if you're thinking to yourself, no Magellan, think about how you talk about you need to update your friend, like your friend is it like you have a software you need to download to your friend about what's been happening in your life, we talk about adjusting to, you know, to life circumstances, like you're kind of like, like, if I can just screw in that screws a little tighter than this, this new house and this new job, will will feel better, right? That it's just something I could do fix and it'll be done rather than something that takes a long time or lots of different adjustments, or things like I need to recharge, right that if you're exhausted, all you need to do is just sit with yourself plugged into something whether it's a TV or you know a nap, and you'll just be better, right that we're like computers that just need one source of charging moving on. Now, the reason we have all these metaphors is they do describe something right like a good weekend, time away, does feel like filling up our energy kind of like a computer being recharged. But the problem is, is that if you're deeply exhausted, if you're in kind of a burnout stage, then describing yourself in that way will lead you to frustration and harshness with yourself because you'll be like but I had my weekend away. I unplugged Why am I not better? Like you know what's wrong with me? And then even just the way we talk about productive IDIQ, right that has more produce can be the language of a tree. But I think often when we use it, we're using it like a production line, right? Like a, like a manufacturing center. And with that, we're expecting ourselves like our machines, I expect my computer to act the same way every day, I don't want it to change, I want to just to be the same, I want it to be able to do the same thing, have the same output be recharged in the same way every day. And when we describe ourselves machines, that's how we start interact with ourselves, we start to think I should be able to expect the same thing of myself every day, I need the same thing every day. And what I'm oriented toward is production productivity. And then if we don't do that, then we waste we start to kind of be harsh on ourselves, trying to push ourselves, we try to do the same thing over and over again and find ourselves more and more exhausted. And then we kind of get in this vicious cycle. So I think that just being aware of the limitations of that metaphor and going, you know, actually, I'm not a machine, I you know, I live in Scotland, and it is just grim from like, January to April. And I'm to be honest, it's like grow until January until like May, maybe June. It's it's dark, it's cold, it's rainy. And I've just, I've lived here almost a decade, I'm just not as as not as functional as a human being from in those dark months, especially January and February. And if I beat myself up about that, because I'm a computer that should be able to work the same way every single day, then I will just, I'll just burn myself out, I'll get depressed, I'll start hating myself instead of a more a more fruitful way of engaging with that will be to say, No, I'm a tree, it's winter, all my leaves has fallen off. This is okay, this is just a season. And it's it's a it's a season that has a purpose we need time is when we are less active, less fruitful. And right now what I need to do is conserve energy, put my roots down deep, figure out what I need to do to survive the winter. You know, that's the thing that a lot, I think a lot a lot in Scotland more than I used to. So that's a long rambling answer. But I think that's a in the night, I'll say in cuz I went longer than I meant to. The other one I was getting us is the metaphor of battle for health, whether it's physical or mental health, because I think it's intuitive to speak about that. But your body and your mind are not an opponent, you need to kill. And so that is that's another one that I could go into more depth. But those are kind of ones that come to mind.

Joshua Johnson: 18:16

I think that's really helpful. Because that actually brings us to this place of bad because we are if we are a machine, and we're not being productive, there's something wrong with us, I think it brings us into this place of depression and anxiety. And that's a lot of people are suffering from these days. And it I mean, it very well could be the way that we speak about ourselves, the way we speak to one another, the way we think about ourselves as machines, and not as as humans, and trees and things in season. Because if we're a machine, we don't think about rootedness as productivity. And we don't think that it will actually bear much fruit later on in life and do season we actually just think that we're not producing anything. And so there's something wrong with us. How can we get to this place the same? Man, there isn't something wrong with us if we're not so called in this productivity lane and producing external fruit at the at the moment?

Joy Clarkson: 19:28

As a related question, something I want to add to that is I was just thinking, as you were describing that, that I think the machine metaphor does create a lot of anxiety, because if you're a machine malfunctioning and you can't figure out how to make yourself function, then there's no like future hope until you can figure out how to make yourself function. Whereas if you're a tree than a lot of what your you have to do is just endure seasons. And to be honest, that is a lot of what I've experienced in life is that a lot of seasons, you just have to faithfully live through them, you know, you can't magically make them if you if you have a new baby, you can't magically make the new baby sleep. You just have to kind of endure that season of you know, have sleeplessness and and it will pass you know, and there is hope in that that if you're in this season, it will pass but but it also gives you a greater sense of agency. So I think that's where I turned kind of what's your action point. So if you're feeling burned out right now, and you're feeling like well, there's no use and to an inverted thing. Kind of let yourself sit with this question of what season Am I in? Right and if it is that winter season, and most of what you're doing is putting down roots. And I think there's lots of seasons like this, I'll I'll name a few. And maybe it might, blizzards might relate. So I think like when I was, so I did my PhD. And that was basically I didn't do my PhD for eight years, but it was the period of doing Masters and PhD and then kind of getting ready for a job was about seven years. And it was a good season, but it was a lot of just doing hard work and not seeing a ton of payoff for a long time. So that could be a season where you just were it's kind of feels like winter winters can be very long seasons in life, they can they can be at almost a decade. I think also, like when you have really little kids, because it's a lot of just relentless doing the same thing every single day going, this is actually had a spiritual purpose, or am I just like a glorified? Whatever, you know, or planting a church when when you're kind of I'm watching my brother in law, put in so much effort into nursery and congregation, and you don't maybe see a lot pay off. So those are all seasons where it can feel really like, well, what's what's the point of this, but I think if you if you say to yourself, Okay, I think I might be in a winter season, I think what I am called to in the season is to have roots growing deep down, and I can't see the fruit of that. But I think that's where I am. I think it can also turn to things it can give you hope, because it can make you think not all seasons will be like this. Secondly, it can give you a sense of agency, because if you are in winter, what do you need in winter? Do you need something to keep you warm? Do you need more nourishment? You know? Are you feeling kind of depleted? Well, what can you do in your life to create more nourishment? Do you need something that will help you survive? What do you need to survive? You know, and I think asking questions like that can kind of open up a sense of purpose and of agency and of hope in those seasons, to find value in seasons where the fruit is not immediately seen. But you know, you're investing in something good. And someday you will 10 years from now find that you have a fairly functional human being that can eat and even put on clothes by themselves. Or that you're getting to teach the things that you spent hours reading in the library, or that you now see, the kids are the people you baptized, getting baptized, and that those things take a long time. They're they're long seasons, but they're worthwhile. And I think that we're able to live with those seasons better. If we kind of accept them, and then think about what we need.

Joshua Johnson: 23:20

What do we we think we need to rush through seasons? Why do we think that we need to get something done quickly. And fast. It feels like, you know, in this we're living in an accelerated age, something that goes very quickly, very fast. And I think a lot of people feel like they're always behind that they need to catch up to something, maybe because we see everybody everywhere all at once. So how can we slow down and say that life? Actually there is seasons, we can slow down? How do we get out of this accelerated age and fast pace? mess of our life these days?

Joy Clarkson: 24:03

Yeah, well, I think part of the reason we want to some guys who want to rush through seasons is that some seasons are just hard. Like, I don't like winter, it's rough, and I want to be done with it. So that's a part of it. But But I think that when it comes to that, that sense of kind of the hurried, you know, the the violence, the hurried violence of of modern life, a big part of it just comes down to acknowledging that that is the case, you know, starting to notice it around yourself. And that was actually one of the main things I wanted people out of the book was I wanted them to pay attention to their lives, right? Pay attention to your life, pay attention to what season you're in, look at the world outside, see how seasons, change it and think about yourself and think about how does that reflect what's inside of me. So pay attention to your own life, but also to the kind of cultural messages that are enclosing your life, one of which might be that sense of we want easy access to things immediately. And we want to not remember there are seasons. You know, I think I think what this one of the great examples of this is we all go to the grocery store and expect to be able to get apples no matter what month of the year it is right. So we live in a world that literally kind of erases the seasons. So I think sometimes it's not that we're resisting the seasons. It's just that we functionally don't have to remember them in the modern world. And of course the irony of that is that it is actually exhausting the earth right because trees get can't produce apples at all times of the year. So if we're going to get them, then we have to spend a lot of money to send someone away to get one for another country and bring it back. So I think, kind of paying attention to that makes you go, Oh, well, maybe living in my own season is a part of not exhausting myself just like we eating the seasons near you is most more delicious and less exhausting for the earth in the economy. So I think just paying attention, and then also actively resisting, I think, the idea that what makes you valuable as a human being and as a Christian, is what you produce. Because I think that is a big part of it, right? If we are machines, machines, our machines are for purpose, we don't usually just make people do I suppose, as like a work of art, you can make machines work of art. But generally speaking, we make machines to do stuff for us to make duped particular task. And so if we think about ourselves as machines that we think that we are made to do a particular task. And so if we're not doing that, or we're not having some kind of output that we feel, and valuable, and I think that's a pretty pervasive kind of message that we have in the back of our heads. But I think as Christians, we have to affirm that God doesn't value us for what we do, right? He creates us, we're in his image, he loves us. And we are capable of great things. We're capable of being fruitful and Christ. But all of that is is never founded upon that being our actual value. Because our salvation is not dependent on our own effort. We would as Christians, we would never look at someone who wasn't productive. It's kind of an important part of our ethical system, that we look at children, and people who are disabled. And we still think they're valuable, right? Because they're made in the image of God. And that's also true of us, right, we can do things and be fruitful. But our fundamental value is not in that, and it's in I love, there's a little phrase in an E. Cummings poem talks about a human merely being. And as humans merely being we are valuable and valued by God. And I think the irony of, if you resist the kind of idea that you're only valuable for what you produce, and you accept that you're fundamentally loved and valued as a human being, you then actually become more fruitful. That's, that's the ironic thing, at least I've discovered in my life is, the more that I resist the message of needing to be proactive, the more fruit actually see in my life, because I am kind of dwelling on the vine that makes me fruitful, that isn't about my own kind of difficult effort.

Joshua Johnson: 28:15

I was meeting with a friend this morning, and he shared a dream that he had, he had a dream of sitting on the back porch and looking out into his backyard. And he saw two big, huge, beautiful apple trees. He went up to him and, and he picked the apples off and all of the apples were rotten. It's all rotten fruit. He went back to the porch. And then he noticed that a small little tree on the side, that didn't look significant at all. But he went up to that one. And that small tree had beautiful ripe fruit that, you know, he could enjoy and he could eat. And, you know, it reminds me of a lot of what we've been talking about is that what we think is our fast productivity or big significant work, sometimes bears bad fruit, even though we think it's going to be significant to and I reflected this morning about how, you know, Jesus came to Nazareth, he came in a small backwoods town, to a people that was subjugated by the ruling power and authority to you know, and had 30 years of hiddenness, before he even came onto the scene, and that the small, hidden nature of God that produces really good fruit, that's God we're talking about. And if you can do it, and be small and hidden for a long time and bear incredible fruits, why can't we? How do we, how do we embrace the small Is there any other metaphors that you have thought about and walked through that help us embrace the small and the hiddenness that produces beauty and fruit?

Joy Clarkson: 30:12

I just I love that. And I think it's so, so important. And I think it's so important, especially right now when I think a lot of people are really discouraged in their faith because they see, perhaps you could say really big trees that have rotten fruit, you know, that, that we see big leaders that we've all that are kind of distant and far away from us. And then over the years, you pick the fruit and you realize what's actually rotten and it could be really just distressing and discouraging. So I think that that kind of Bringing yes back to the small tree that bears much fruit is so important and encouraging. And so essential, just to remind us that it doesn't matter if we're the big tree, if we have rotten fruit, you know that we need to have that, that rotundus I'd rather be the tiny, I don't know, in the opening chapter, in my book, I actually talk about this tiny apple tree that had exactly and I'm not kidding, the three summers I was there, it would bear exactly six apples. So one year five, and they were amazing. But they were just six or five. So that that very much resonates was my, my lovely little apple tree, whereas the other apples were all very sour, and you can only cook with them. So So metaphors for the small. One of the things, I guess what comes to my mind when he first said, that is how often Jesus talks about seeds, you know, I think about the mustard seed that grows into this large tree where birds can rest in it, I love that image of, of, it's not just that it's a huge tree, that's cool, but it's also the sense that it becomes a haven for the creatures in the sky. And, and also, you know, the metaphors of the, the sower and seeds are just a continual kind of metaphor, which are probably related to trees, right? That that sense of, of being something that grows into something larger, something small. And if you've ever actually gardened, like, seeds are crazy, they are amazing. Like you, you put this little tiny thing in the ground, and depending on what play you have, it can be huge by the end of the summer. And so I think sitting with those metaphors of seeds, and thinking about how you can kind of do stuff to encourage the seeds, you can put it in the light, you know, you can water it. But ultimately, it is this just kind of miraculous thing that you do. And then you sit with with patients with faith and an blooms. And so I think, approaching our own life of faith in that way, thinking okay, well, I can plant seeds in my life, I can put them by the windows that they get sun and you know, trash drown them with too much water or dry them out. But then at the end of the day, it is this process of you know, it's the passage in which a fistula is where it says, you know, Peter planted and I watered, but it is called who bears the fruit. I think thinking of our lives like that, remembering that all the all the good works we do are something that we can plant, we can water, we can put the sun, but they're always this miraculous thing and trusting that trusting God with our seeds with our tiny things that we can nourish and nurture. But ultimately, it is God who causes it to grow and cause it to bear the fruit. That's a metaphor. It's

Joshua Johnson: 33:32

really good. Yeah, it's really good. That seed reminds me, you know, unless this is you, the seed dies and falls to the earth and planted doesn't bear any fruit. And so, you know, dying to ourselves is really important as well, you know, as you walk through, you know, in your book, a lot of different metaphors. Is there a metaphor that was really that resonated with you that you wrote about that you were like, I it's something that you gravitate to that you love. So

Joy Clarkson: 34:03

I mean, to be honest, I loved writing this book. And with every metaphor that I wrote, I discovered things I wasn't expecting that really spoke to me personally. But I think that the chapter and it's kind of a little bit more ambiguous in a way. But I think the chapter that really spoke to me personally at that point in my life when I was writing it was the metaphor of creation or change as birth. And that's something you see a lot in Scripture, you know, like when when Nicodemus goes to Jesus, and he says, You have to be poor again. And Nicodemus is like really puzzled by it, because he's like, Well, you didn't, I don't know, can I go back into the womb, and that seems kind of intense. And there's various portions of Scripture that explore that kind of theme of being reborn baptism is often described as kind of your emerging through the waters of new births, you know. But what's interesting to me too, is that, that is often tied up with, with something like death. Also, there's this kind of connection between new life but also you die to yourself when you're born again. And it's interesting that Jesus is described as the first born over all creation, you know, the sense of that Christ also was born. So that, that kind of metaphor of birth, but then we also we use that metaphor to describe either changes, often vocational changes, so things like getting married, getting ordained, having a child, all these things He's create big personal changes for us. And we usually use those metaphors to describe those changes. So we say, you know, she kind of had a rebirth by which we mean somebody, you know, has changed. And I think actually meditating on that metaphor, thinking about it, thinking about actual birth. And thinking about, there are two different sides of it. One side is when you're the person given birth, because that is sometimes the metaphor is used, but often it's you or the person being born. And there's this great, beautiful, eerie song by an artist called Oliver Arnold's. And he has a monologue read by this Canadian artist, and she talks about the experience of the baby being born, like how kind of scary on some level it must be to go from this cozy, safe, dark, warm place to light and people and breathing on your own and how how scary and terrifying that must be. For a baby, but the it's so it must feel like death to baby to be like shot out of the world that you've known and into this, this new world. And that that's often how it feels for us, we go through big transitions, you know, you don't quite now it'll be like, your suddenly your environment changes your sense of self changes. And there can be this kind of real trepidation that comes on the cusp of big life changes, like having a child or getting married or entering a location that can, you can feel like you're going to shoot out of this warm place that you know, that you understand, into this much more vulnerable place. But that, that kind of change. And that kind of growth is also in tying that metaphor is necessary for survival, right, a baby can't stay in the womb forever, you do actually have to be born again, you do actually have to change, all of us one day will have to die and enter into eternal life. And that's terrifying. I think sitting with that, and putting my finger on like, all these different kinds of areas of life that can create fear. But also, the beauty and the possibility of new life. That was a that was a metaphor that was more complex to me. But it really spoke to me and thinking about how, what big changes come when we feel like we're being reborn, it makes sense that we feel afraid, that we feel like who we are, is, is kind of dying and being reborn again. But that that's something that Jesus has done. So we're not alone. You know, we do and many little times in our life, and ultimately, we'll do it in our death and resurrection. And also that we actually have to be born again to survive. And so that, that kind of gives us some bravery. So that was a I know that may sound very heady. But that was something that really spoke to me and it kind of mysterious way laws writing,

Joshua Johnson: 38:24

as we're being reborn, and we come into this new light, and we're called we were in this embryonic fluids, that it was very nice. We were nourished through this umbilical cords, where you have all of your nutrients, you don't even have to drink, or eat or do anything. It's just there for you. And then you're there and the lights, I think you're right, we get afraid, we're scared, you know, babies start to cry at the very beginning, when they're exiting the womb. They're they're trying to figure out, oh, how do we breathe? What's the new breath? actually like? And so I think a couple of those things that you shared was really helpful to us getting through the fear, and stepping into the new to being born again. I think that was really beautiful. What are some of your hopes for your readers? The people that that get this book and to walk through these metaphors? What do you hope that they get out of this?

Joy Clarkson: 39:29

One thing I hope that they get is just a renewed sense of how meaningful the world is that God has made the world in such a way that when we look at the seasons, or at light, or at childbirth, that there are these kind of strings of meaning that can help us speak about our spiritual lives, and that they will kind of approach both their interior and their exterior worlds with a sense of wonder, and with a sense of the way that God has made the world a meaningful place. And I also hope that it will just be a book that will give them resources to enrich their spiritual and imaginative life. I think a big part of the book is about how important it is to be able to speak about things are our spiritual lives, our experiences, and that metaphors help us do that. And as a part of that I kind of at the end of every chapter, so the end of every meditation, the metaphor there seven metaphors, I include kind of a section with with poems and essays and artwork and movies, you could watch that kind of enrich those metaphors. They give you new ways to think about it. And so I hope people enjoy that and find that are enriching their spiritual lives and I hope it also makes them reengage with Scripture with an eye toward the metaphorical and the political and, and seeing how how richly meaningful scripture is that you can return to it again and again and find new and rich depths, and images to think on.

Joshua Johnson: 40:59

And every chapter you were you were looking for those movies and the music and the poems and the essays, the things that that stood out to you with those metaphors? How can we intentionally look for those, as we are encountering those things in our lives? I think oftentimes, people, people watch a movie to escape and not to be having metaphor come at you seriously reflect on your life and move into a new space. I like to do that. But some people just want to escape, right? So how do we intentionally look at works of art, to help nourish our lives and points us to a better spiritual place in our relationship with God and our lives and each other? Well,

Joy Clarkson: 41:48

I want to say, first of all, that I do understand the impulse for watching things or enjoying things for escape. And I, I do it too, you know, I enjoy, I enjoy a good escape TV or a for me, it's often like, I read a lot of mystery novels. And my, when I was in the depths of my study, that was kind of like mine go to escape thing. But I think that, I think there, I think a way to think about drawing meaning from it is just to have conversations about things with people, or, you know, just talk, think about why do these things? Why do we enjoy these things? What do they speak to, that makes me want to keep coming back to it? And I think I always just assumed that the world is a meaningful place, because there's a God who created it. And so whatever artwork or movie or people you're encountering, there's usually something about it that appeals to some human desire. It scratches some itch. So I think just kind of having that question in your mind. Why do people enjoy this? What is it about this, it's appealing, what is what human need is the speaking to. And I think also, when you're thinking from a ministry standpoint, that's also really important, because a lot of times, even people who can't, who aren't really interested in the faith, still want to talk about the story. So they love. And so if you can kind of detect what it is in the stories in the TV that people watch what it is, is appealing to that can be a great place to start conversations about the spiritual life.

Joshua Johnson: 43:13

That's really good. I hope people start to pay attention and engage and metaphor and gauge and the stories of their life that is coming at them. Because I want to let us be intentionally formed in our journey is and not just unintentionally formed, and figuring out, Hey, I'm gonna wake up as a computer, and hopefully I can recharge and get better. I have a couple of questions for you joy. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give

Joy Clarkson: 43:45

one general one specific piece of advice, one specific piece of advice is I would tell her to do a more specific PhD thesis don't go global goal specific because you're I know you're thinking too broad and a will exhaust you that we might that we might my my cheat to have slowed myself down a little bit. My sweet advisor was was too encouraging. I did a PhD, which wanted to say everything about everything. So that's my that'd be my, my, my cheat. And then the second thing I think I'd probably say is like, read more novels and watch more TV because you won't have any time the rest of your life to do it. I know that's really not a very spiritually answer, but I think I would say

Joshua Johnson: 44:22

spiritual. That's great. That's fantastic. Yeah, I Yeah. Just read more novels, watch warrants. Yeah. That's great. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend?

Joy Clarkson: 44:35

Oh, that's a good question. Both of us have been reading and watching are mildly dark, which is not my usual but I have

Joshua Johnson: 44:43

been, I've been watching some mildly dark things. So it's okay. I've been

Joy Clarkson: 44:48

so I've been reading a novel by Michelle Beck, who's not like my norm someone gave me like the, he's a very, he's a French, kind of nihilistic author about you know, how people fail to find meaning in the modern world. And I thought that's not my thing, but I'm interested in it. And so I've been reading the, the, the terror, the madness, territory, and actually really enjoying it has kind of like a weird Dickens vibe of a slight saturation of culture. And it has a lot more God in it than I was expecting for someone who's nihilistic talks a lot about wanting to pray and not being able to so that's intriguing. I don't know if I recommend it, but I'm, I'm finding interesting and then I've been watching. I've been watching through house in D, the TV show, which is a really interesting, it's just fun. It's interesting because it's kind of like a medical drama based in mystery novels. But I also think it's a really fascinating portrayal of addiction and is a really, I think, a weirdly realistic one. I don't think there's a lot of, of why people were turned to things that they know, will hurt them even when they don't want to. And I think that is a fascinating question to ask. And it also is premised on to two things from the very first episode to the very last, which is that everybody lies and everybody dies. And so, which I think is is a, you know, that's a pretty good starting place for a Christian conversation, right? We have all sinned, and we're all going to die. So what do you do with those two facts? So that's what I'm I now I want to know what you've been watching or reading.

Joshua Johnson: 46:16

Well, my wife was watching house with my mother in love. Last month before she passed away, she passed away we could go. And my wife was our primary caregiver during that time as she was passing away. And they watched house together so interesting in its world, so I thought that was interesting. I'm like up. So yeah, and I was like, You were watching us. Okay. Yeah. So we started watching The Last of Us, you know, which still haven't seen that, which is really, really good. And there aren't the most of the horror comes from other people and not the crazy zombies. So there, there are less zombies in it that than I thought there would be. But I think it's, it's really pretty fascinating show, you know. Yeah. So there was a lot of incredible things that I really enjoyed the last of us. It's not that I didn't, didn't think I would, and it took us a while to actually start it. But that was really good. Well, joy, how can people go out and get your book? You are a tree? And how can people connect with you? Where would you like to point people to,

Joy Clarkson: 47:32

so you can buy your tree and other metaphors nourish like that, and prayer, anywhere that sells books. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble, if you're the sort that wants to support your local bookstore, you can buy it through bookstore.org. But anywhere, you can buy new find books. And you can find me on the internet. I have my own podcast called speaking with joy. And then I have you just go to Joy clarkson.com. And that will redirect you to my substack. So I have a weekly newsletter. And I also teach at King's College London, and I'm an editor for plough quarterly, so you can also find some of my writing and plow, and then all the usuals like, Instagram and Facebook and the website formerly known as Twitter.

Joshua Johnson: 48:19

I know whatever we call it, whatever

Joy Clarkson: 48:22

it is now. Yep.

Joshua Johnson: 48:25

Excellent. Oh, one really? Yeah. Last question. If you if somebody had one extra day to spend anywhere in Scotland, where would you say they should spend a day in Scotland?

Joy Clarkson: 48:40

This feels like a very specific question.

Joshua Johnson: 48:43

It is very specific.

Joy Clarkson: 48:46

I think. So I'm assuming this person is probably going to spend a day in Edinburgh because they're in Scotland. This is my hypothetical imagination.

Joshua Johnson: 48:54

That's a good hypothetical. So don't not Edinburgh somewhere

Joy Clarkson: 48:58

else. Yeah, so not umbra, I think I would do one or two things. And these are kind of simple. And I'm just biased, because it's where I spent a lot of my time. One would be to do a little trip up some of the, the fishing villages along kind of the North Sea side. So through intro there and crale and Pittenweem, where you have, they're very tiny, but they have really good fish and chips. And they have, there's a chocolate shop that I think is the basis for, at least in my mind, I think it's the basis for the novel chocolate. And then there's also like, little random like church sites, or Celtic saints, how their cells and stuff. So that's and then end in St. Andrews, which is where I did my decrees. And you can go look at the oldest school golf course. And walk around through cathedral. So I think that's what I do. That'd be like a pretty easy day. The other one would be I would just say, go kind of like to the neck of the highlands and go to a few whiskey distilleries and check out some of the beautiful old towns. So what one of those two, I should say sky but I've never actually been to Sky, which is Wow, crazy. All right, I live here. So I've got to work on it.

Joshua Johnson: 50:11

You need to work on that you need to go well Joy thank you for taking us into the world of metaphor and the the poetic that will help us truly live and to see our lives as as beauty that we could look at the amazement and the wonder of the every day that we could see and rightly discern which season that we're in that we could put down our roots and that we can bear fruit in the right way. time in the right season, thank you that you helped us walk with the idea that we need people to be able to do that to discern with that we could actually have our roots with, with people and not just a place, and that we could look at rebirth. And we can say we're we're going to be transitioning into a new season. And although it could be scary that there's beauty, and that it's necessary to be reborn to walk through those things. Thank you for joining us from Scotland. And so I just hope that you have an incredible time that people get your book your a tree, and then they start to apply this to our lives so that we can actually pay attention in a way and not use bad metaphors for our life that deplete us. But use metaphors that bring us beauty and joy, some Thank you joy.

Joy Clarkson: 51:37

Thank you really enjoyed this conversation.