Ep. 164 Andi Andrew - Braving Change

In this episode, Andi Andrew and I have a conversation around transition and change. We dive into hearing God’s voice, discerning the Holy Spirit, paying attention to the signs, and knowing when to jump and be brave in the midst of change. We build our foundation on the rock as we reflect on the story at the end of the sermon of the mount that Jesus tells about the wise and foolish builder. And we talk through dealing with grief and loss during transition, both personally and communally. Join us as we brave change and hold on to the rock as transitions come.

Andi Andrew is the podcast host of Coffee With Andi and the author of She Is free, Fake or Follower, Friendship-It’s Complicated and Braving Change. Passionate about freedom, family, and creating safe spaces for the prophetic to move, Andi is a heartfelt preacher who loves to see the reality of the gospel worked out in our everyday lives.

Based in Charleston, South Carolina, and planted at Seacoast Church, Andi’s life is currently focused on raising her kids, writing, and investing in local churches and lives around the world.

Andi's Book:
Braving Change

Andi's Recommendations:
Trust by Henry Cloud
All the Light We Cannot See by Anthony Doerr

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Andi Andrew: 0:00

This is the beautiful thing about hearing God's voice. So contextually think about this. We are literally created by God to hear him. I mean, you look back in the Garden of Eden, and that was the original created purpose. So walk with Him, hear him know him intimately. The one thing that enemy comes in and does is He lies to us. And I find it so interesting that we're like, I can't hear God. But we will hear a lie from the enemy and grab it and lock and load and live in that lie. And in the meanwhile, we're saying I can't hear God. And I'm like, Well, that is a lie, you can.

Joshua Johnson: 0:53

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Nicole smithy, Drew Qian and Michael carry on. You can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Andy Andrew. Andy is the podcast host of coffee with Andy and the author of she is free, Faker follower, friendship is complicated, and braving change, passionate about freedom family and creating safe spaces for the prophetic to move. And he has a heartfelt preacher who loves to see the reality of the gospel worked out in our everyday lives. And he and I have a conversation around transition and change. We dive into hearing God's voice discerning the Holy Spirit paying attention to the signs and knowing when to jump and be brave in the midst of change. We build our foundation on the rock as we reflect on the story at the end of the sermon on the mount that Jesus tells us about the wise and the foolish builder. And we talked through dealing with grief and loss during transition both personally and communally. So join us as we brave change and hold on to the rock as transitions come. Here's my conversation with Andy Andrew. Andy, welcome to shifting culture. Thanks for coming on the podcast. Really appreciate it.

Andi Andrew: 3:03

Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

Joshua Johnson: 3:06

Love to start and hear your journey with Jesus with your journey with Jesus. What are some of the the changes that have happened within your faith and your relationship with him?

Andi Andrew: 3:18

Oh my gosh, so many. I realize now I can't even do the math at how long I've been following Jesus. I'm not a math brain but because I got saved in 1998. And the 90s. Anyone heard of those?

Joshua Johnson: 3:33

And the and the 1900s and hundreds that's

Andi Andrew: 3:38

what I do. I have that in my I think I put that as like a joke. I was like born in the 19 hundred's. Um, because that's like a thing now. Which is crazy. But I look back and I think about all of the changes that have happened because, you know, in a way like Hello, that's the guy that we serve that wants to bring change and transformation to our lives. But I was about a year in after I'd gotten saved was you know, you're in that honeymoon period. And then all of a sudden he starts bringing up the stuff he's like, you're gonna need to work on that you're gonna need to work on that. So not only has that just been the journey of walking with Jesus, I think, you know, I was born and raised in Spokane, Washington live.

Joshua Johnson: 4:24

So I coached basketball Whitworth University in Spokane. Wow. Yeah. So I spent some time in Spokane and then I grew up in Puyallup, so I was you know, so Oh, my gosh, don't we

Andi Andrew: 4:38

are we know all the things we just said we know we're talking about Yeah, that's right away. It's so interesting finding people who know much of Washington State because you didn't say I am from Washington. They're like cool DC you're like, No, the state but yeah, like I think about like life after I guys saved even like Seattle, Sydney, Australia, planting a church in New York City moving down south, like our most recent move is now we're living in the South who would have thought, you know, I lived in the deep south in Australia, and now I'm in the cell. But I never, you know, Washington State growing up in Washington never would have thought I'm gonna live in the south one day. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 5:21

no, I'm in Kansas City now. And I never thought I'd be in the Midwest, like what I just thought about, but yeah,

Andi Andrew: 5:28

where are the trees. But, um, I know, I'm like, kind of giving like a very surface of all this shifting and changing but within that is so much growth, so much inner healing, so much loss, so many highs, so many lows. And I think like, even the writing of the book that called breaking change that we're talking about a bit today was like, I came to a pinnacle moment in my life. After we transition, transition, the leadership of the church, we planted where I was like this, we're going to live and die in New York, we're gonna be here forever. And you realize, like, your purpose is fluid, but your assignment changes. And when that assignment changed, it just like rocked me in a way where it will actually about five years before that pastoring in New York City, and dealing with so much change at loss and people coming in girl going. I just think I needed to learn how to walk through transition, because what I learned was transition can be a teacher, or it can take you out and I was like, I want to live and grow. Through this, instead of letting these things take me on take me down.

Joshua Johnson: 6:42

Well, you said something there that your assignments change your purpose is fluid. So So moves forward? How do you hold on to purpose through transition, and change and changing assignments?

Andi Andrew: 6:53

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. There's a couple of ways I think that we obviously have to know what our wheelhouse is and know what God has called us to. And in a way, like when you think about your purpose, it's like what your heart has beat for from the time you were little. And you look back and go, that thread has always been there. And so often what we do is we hold on to it our assignment and it becomes part of our identity. And that's what I realized is I had to repent, actually, when we moved down south because then we were just, we were part of this team. We weren't on staff we're serving at a church. We're not leading anymore. And I realized, oh my gosh, God, will you forgive me? So much of my identity was wrapped up in LA and New York City. I'm a pastor in New York City, I was like, Oh, wow, get over yourself. So much pride that I've even to deal with. But I think it's like, you have to come back to who you are. It sounds so trite, but it's so true. Like who you are in Christ, and what he's called you to whether anybody knows, or sees or cares. It doesn't matter. Like our life is meant to be lived in radical obedience to Him, whatever that looks like. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 8:07

then what is identity look like? I mean, I, as an Enneagram, three, I like to put on masks and pretend that I am this person over here and this person in this area and that group, how do we reclaim our identity as children of God, first and foremost, we know who we are. We know who's we are. We know who we are. We know what our purpose is and where we're going because of our identity. Yeah,

Andi Andrew: 8:35

well, for me, I mean, I'll just speak to the most recent season, I think when because I think, throughout our lifetime, we have identity crisis, I didn't realize that having a baby was gonna cause me to have an identity crisis. I didn't realize getting married would cause me to have an identity crisis. I didn't know moving countries. It's like you're just in it. And then all of a sudden, you're like, who am I? And for me, like I said, I'll just speak to the most recent season of coming to a church where we have friends, it's a, it's healthy, our pastors love us have shepherded us so well through the transition. But in essence, what I realized is they want us here, but they don't need us to do anything. And I thought about that, and something in that locked and loaded for me in my identity, is that we are so wanted by God, but he doesn't need us to do anything. Yes, we have gifts. I mean, there is a whole theology, we could go down another rabbit holes like timeout. What about the things we need to steward and the talents? Okay, yes, there are things that we are called to do on this earth, obviously. But when it comes to identity, it literally is found in that place. So I had to like pick up the pieces of going through, where did I attach my identity to what I did, and repent of that. Once those fall down, you start to see what's left. as who you are, and And gosh, am I loved even while I do nothing while I achieved nothing? Well, I don't have like a ribbon to say to everybody look at what I achieved over here. So I think that that is we needed I, I'll speak for myself now my husband, he's an Enneagram three, I'm a four wing five. So I didn't realize how much I needed to just sit and not have anything to achieve and realize that I was still loved. That was hard. That was really hard been good. And, yeah, that

Joshua Johnson: 10:35

sounds scary.

Andi Andrew: 10:37

It was terrifying. I was like, God, I'm an author, and I'm a secret I have all these things that I do is like, that's so cute. Can you lay that down? And can you lay that one down and lay that one down? I'm like, Oh, um, he's like, I really just need you to love your family Well, right now, and be present. And I was like, You know what I can do that. I can do that. Even if I go a little bit dark on other areas in my life, and not need to have a PR campaign as to why I'm walking through the change that I am. Just let it be. You know,

Joshua Johnson: 11:09

that's so good that you need to let it be to move forward. But there is purpose and hope. So let's, let's walk through your book and talk through, do it. This the space where we're moving from one place to another, we're in a transition? What are the types of transitions that that you're speaking to you? Yeah, what may we find ourselves in some transitions? We choose some we don't choose? Yeah. And what are they?

Andi Andrew: 11:41

Yeah, that's a huge part of, of the book, it's called recognize transition when you're in it. And I think that it's really helpful to understand when you're in the middle of a change, because the rhythm of grace changes. It's like when you're dancing to a certain song at a wedding, and the DJ changes the song. But if you're still stuck in the other song, you look a little bit like a fool. Because the rhythm is is changed. I think it's the same, even seasonally paying attention to like, holding on to that last song, like you're still trying to like live in it. God's like, I don't want need you to move on the rhythm of your life has changed. So the different I mean, there's so many different types of transition that we walk through, you know, I talk about mountain tops, valleys and plateaus, these different seasons that we go through. And a lot of times, there's the change that we asked for, like, you cry out to God for you know, you want to get married, you want to have a baby, you, you are crying out for this job, you literally achieve, maybe go through college and you become a doctor, no, like there's everything I ever wanted. But even when you hit those things that you cried out for, even God begins to transform your life in the way that you've been crying out for often we're stuck. But how life looks so different. I mean, I giggled, because when I got married, I saw my quiet times that night. And I would like turn on worship music and like candles, and just sit with Jesus, you do that when you get married and a man walks in, he's like, thank you. I'm like, no, no, like, and just realizing like, oh, everything has to change, because now we're together and we're one and realizing, even in the good change. So there's the good change that you asked for it, you still have to shift and move and find your rhythm and that in the grief and the loss. There's the loss of a loved one, there's a loss of a dream, the death of a dream, there are even people in my world and things in my world where it's like I thought by this age, my life would look like this. And it doesn't look anything like there's loss in that. So you have to pay attention to, to that change. So there are many different areas of change that I'm speaking to. And and then there's the global change that we're all walking through. And there's some of us that that affects more than others. And I am a deep feeler and operate like I anyway, there's a lot to that, where for me, I feel the seismic shifts on planet Earth and intercede and pray for them. And it gets me to the core, like the rise and the fall of kingdoms. And we're going to have an election this year in the United States. And that is going to be a thing where it how do we remain Christians? How do we build our life on the rock when the storms hit? And that's one of the key scriptures too, is that I talked about in the introduction about how, you know Jesus just gives the sermon on the mount the greatest sermon of all time, shifting us into the new covenant. And he says at the very end, if you actually hear these words of mine and do them, you can't just hear it. If you do them. You're building your life on the rocks. So then when the storms come In the shifting and the changing comes, you'll still remain on the right thing. But if you listen and don't do it, good luck, you know, it's kind of. So I think that it's like, paying attention to even the good things, the bad things, the hard things, the boring things, all the changes, that that's I speak to all of it and then give principle really, through how to walk through it all and and do it as good as we can. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 15:23

I think what Jesus says in that, and Matthew 724, through 27, and the wise and foolish builder is really crucial, because I think a lot of church goers hear the words of Jesus and don't put them into practice. And so when change happens, storms happen. We aren't built on the rock, you know, I used to growing up, go like, hey, Jesus is my rock, and he rolls my blues away. Right? But it's actually be putting into practice his words is the rock. It's, it is a little bit different than I thought growing up. What are some of these? What are some of these words of Jesus, these practices of Jesus that help us stay grounded, when storms and change and transition hits, keep

Andi Andrew: 16:14

showing up? Well, I talked about keep showing, not choosing integrity and change, having gratitude, finding rhythms of rest, and rebuilding the right things and letting other things fall to the ground, that you're not supposed to rebuild. Because in change, there is an there is a great pruning and cutting off. That can happen in our lives in the middle of change. And often we're like trying to graft things back in and God's like, can you please let that be like I do that because I love you. So there are many things. It just depends on what road you want to go down. But I mean, I talk about even grief. And even Jesus showed us how to grieve in the middle of change, and loss and resurrection and all of the things that we see. But I mean, Grief is a huge middle part of the chapter,

Joshua Johnson: 17:03

grief would be a perfect place to start. Because if we don't deal with that, and the loss that we have going through transition is going to come up later. As you know, like the things we don't deal with, they will like creep their ugly head up and say, Hey, I'm still here. He needs to deal with me. How do we how do we grieve properly, and well, the losses of one transition to another even if it's a good transition?

Andi Andrew: 17:29

I think it's something that I've learned as a practice to get good at. And I know that sounds really weird as Greece as a practice. But a lot of times some of we're in the middle of a cycle of grief, and we're unaware that we are we're stuck in the middle of a cycle of grief. And I learned that the hard way. And since then, I've really learned how to lean into grief properly. I went through a season where I wasn't grieving some things in the right way. I was pushing them down trying to push through. But then I ended up I mean, we all know like you just said that it's going to come up some way you can get sick gut issues. Like I mean, there's tons of stuff, depression, heaviness, if you don't deal with grief, you don't allow yourself and I remember, I was in a stage where I was laying in bed, I was not doing well. And I didn't even realize how bad I was until one of my children came in and said, Mommy, are you gonna die. And I was like, it was like a wake up call for me. And then I realized that scripture says He comforts those who mourn. And it's so interesting to me that when we're stuck in a cycle of grief, we're often pushing people away, we're pushing God away, we're trying to do it ourselves. But when we do, that's when heaviness and depression sets in. But I realized, oh, I need to shut the door, I probably need to turn on a worship song or a song that gets me close to Jesus, and just allow myself to cry and weep and wail and mourn the losses that I've suffered in this season. And even like you said, we just went through a really good transition. It was great movie. I mean, everything was good. But it was still loss. And so I realized about six months in, it was so good living down here that I had pushed away, I was like, I'm good. This is so crazy. I'm good. I'm good, I'm good. And then I was like, I'm not good. And I had to allow myself to process and get to the place of acceptance in the cycle of grief, where I went, I accept where I'm at. And even though there's still some pain, I can move forward. But

Joshua Johnson: 19:30

the thing with with grief and transition, you know, I and my wife and I lead a missions organization, we were missionaries on the field. So we got a culture shock, right. And when we moved from one culture to another, like when you move from New York to the south, there's a little bit of culture shock, a little bit, just a little bit of a shock. And so it's not an easy transition isn't easy whenever you're moving or moving somewhere else. And I think that we need to normalize that we need to like to say, this is hard. And this is difficult, even good transitions are hard and difficult. And you're going to be okay. And we know that you're going to go through a valley, where you don't want to be there. And you're like, what? Did I, What decision did I just make? Did I make the right decision? I can't believe we just did this, this is horrible. But you're gonna get through it and go through the other side? What are after you've started to say, Okay, I know that I'm starting to grieve these losses, these good transitions, as you're going through culture shock and moving towards what's next? And what's new. And stepping into that, what are some things that have helped you move into the new direction that you're going towards?

Andi Andrew: 20:52

I think I didn't realize how much I needed to give myself grace and space to recover. And, and that requires, like, we're also different. So what does that look like for each of us, I think it requires what I would call a game plan, a game plan to be kind to yourself a game plan to recover. And, and again, after there after one particular grieving season, I had a really close friend that I let into those vulnerable spaces, who one of her taglines is you know, be authentic with the many and vulnerable with a few. So be your true self wherever you are. But don't share all your stuff with everyone because people have not earned the right. And that's why even on social media, I just crumble when I watch people how to take their vulnerable posts. And I'm like, You're literally opening your heart up to so many people who don't even know your care and are going to comment on your life, and they're not going to be there for you. So you need a game plan. And again, it all depends on our tendencies and personalities for me, in that particular season. That required like that particular friend, she said, Hey, I'm going to lead a Celebrate Recovery small group for pastors, and I would love for you to be a part of it. Now, I didn't have addiction issues. But I had codependency issues, raging codependency issues. And I needed to be in discipleship with other people. So with other pastors and leaders where I could be vulnerable, where I could grow, and literally, that was part of my game plan was a every single Wednesday night, I sat together with these women, and it changed my life. And a lot of times, what we do after we grieve is we isolate. So you have to find your way, and the people that you can trust that you will intentionally walk with them. So everyone's like I said, everyone's gameplan looks different for me, my mental and physical health actually helped my whole self. So I love I'm a weirdo who loves to work out. But I have realized that it really helps the whole person, like my mind feels better that endorphin rush, like at the end of a workout. I'm like, who like I can do anything. So like I said, gameplan looks different for everybody. And now I'm in a totally different scenario where I have a small group of friends, I've never had this before, like this ever. And I'm terrified half the time, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, are these guys gonna stick around like, but a lot of times, after grieving, you need to make sure that you just have your regular regular rhythms in place so that you can recover properly, but make a game plan. And that particular friend in that season a few years back, she said, Hey, I know you've gone through a lot and you're grieving, but you're gonna be okay. And we need a game plan. And that's really where it came from. And she was, we need those friends, right? That sometimes just sit there in the pit with you. And then that same sort of friend that needs to go, Okay, we're done sitting down here. We need a game plan. Now let's get out. I

Joshua Johnson: 23:48

think a lot of people do just sit in the pit. And they're gonna give I think somebody told said on this podcast and everything somebody says, you know, in the pit, Jesus doesn't just sit there with you. He he sits there and then gives you a ladder. Let's get out of the pit. And to move forward, right? And there's this game plan. There's this ladder that we actually could say, Okay, this step in this next step in this next step, and we're going to move from this position, and he's going to be with us. I think you said, you know, you're showing up in community. One of the things that I've seen with celebrate recovery groups within churches is that it brings life to the church because people are actually finding Jesus in those places. So mere life with Jesus is happening and so brings life to the church and community. But there's also a place of vulnerable acceptance with one another that there is a safe space. How can we be safe spaces for one another?

Andi Andrew: 24:52

I learned a long time ago. If you want to attract safe people, and you just said it, too. That was your language. You've got to become one. You've got to be Become a safe person yourself. And to become a safe person is someone who is doing the internal work continually. The internal work of sanctification, the internal work of change. And so I think, for me, like I said, this group is new for me, a group of women, where, because I was pastoring, and leading, so you're at the, you know, the point of the spear, usually your friends are outside, your close friends are outside of your church. I'm not always I had a few close friends in the church, but a lot of times, it's it's very lonely. So you get good at lonely. And now I'm in this place where these people keep pulling me close. And I'm like, I am great, but are you going to stay? You know? Anyway, so becoming a safe person, for me over the years has looked like continually, like I said, doing the work of sanctification. If I had trust issues, if I have anger issues, if I have, whatever issues they are, what am I going to do about that, and how, because that causes you to become a safer and safer person, I think about that, even with my children, to become a safe mom, for my kids, I have to continue to grow in Christ, I have to keep running. And it's kind of like, let's go back to the Sermon on the Mount, I had to go back, read that, live it, do it every single day, it's that long obedience in the same direction. And as you do that, you become safe. And then you find you attract other safe people, where there's a reciprocity and relationship. And so I didn't even realize because I had done life, so alone, in so many ways, as a leader, that when I moved here and had people around the corner, that are friends that go to the same church as me that like actually show up on my doorstep, when I need something. I was like, I really don't know what to do with it. But over the last couple of years, it's grown me in the most beautiful of ways. And I think also you have to choose I, I just recently had a conversation with one of them that I'm very close to. And I realized I had shut down part of myself out of fear of rejection. And so I was like, I know, that's my issue. It's not hers. And so what am I going to do about that? How am I going to deal with my fear of rejection, I literally have to go to God and realize how accepted I am. And then you have to step out and do the very thing you're terrified to do, which is possibly be rejected. A lot of times, we are waiting for somebody else to reach out to us, I have had to learn how to go first and cultivate spaces and bring people and, and, and often that grows the thing that you're looking for.

Joshua Johnson: 27:47

That's a scary place. I think I've often prayed, God, just bring somebody to me and bring somebody to me, I need somebody, bring somebody to me. Pray that for my wife, like bringing somebody to for my wife, bring these people. But you just said something that was scary. But as necessary is we need to be putting ourselves out there and cultivating those spaces for ourselves. That we need to do that work for ourselves. How can you I mean, you're talking your book is called braving change. But so how can we be brave like that? That like stepping into new things, is a brave posture. And we're not always brave, how can we get courage from the Lord?

Andi Andrew: 28:39

Honestly, I think there's a few things. I think the biggest thing, and I'll just speak most recently, that I've learned and then I look back over my life, I'm like, oh, maybe I've done that all along since I started following him is just when he whispers and nudges you operate in radical obedience to Him. Um, I think I think the bravery. Oftentimes, we're not brave because we're thinking about ourselves. We're thinking about what you know, we're thinking about everything that comes with it. We're thinking about what other people will think we're thinking too much about all everything else. I just don't want to be the the person that needs bit and bridle and to be whipped. You know what I mean? I just want the nudge of the Holy Spirit to cause me to go alright, almost. I'll move this way, though and move this way. Even if that means loss. There's always gain even as you loss and as you lose, and that was in the first few months of even being here. Man uprooting my junior in high school, my eldest out of New York City, because we knew we knew lol I was my heart was ripped out for him and it. But we knew we needed to be obedient. We got down here. And that was one of the bravest things watching him. Oh, man. When we drove away from our brownstone in Brooklyn, the sound in our car was, I mean, it was the sound of, like sackcloth and ashes. We wept. But we knew, or as a family unit, we're like, this is, right. This is where we're supposed to go. And I'll tell you, what's crazy, is my son. My eldest, sorry, I'm a crier. But he, um, over that year and a half, that he was here in the cell, because he's moved back to New York City. Over the year and a half that he was here, I have never seen such radical growth. He, it was, he's, even though with pain, he left, he dove into this place with everything that he was, and I watched the fruit of it. And then he made a brave decision, because we're super close family. And he's really close with his siblings. But he made the decision. He's like, I know, I'm supposed to go back. I know that. I'm supposed to take a gap year go back to New York City. Like the passions that he has, like, the way God has already moved, he went back to the church that we planted, he's a part of the congregation. They're like, and I'm watching him flourish, and these choices that he's making now. And so I think bravery is really just radical obedience, and not becoming stubborn children. And it's not easy.

Joshua Johnson: 31:49

I think part of it, it's not not easy, but part of it is to cultivate the knowing that this is the Holy Spirit nudging me towards something else. And we have to cultivate that in our life. How do we do that? How could we recognize the Holy Spirit is nudging insane? Let's move in this direction. Time for a change time to go that way.

Andi Andrew: 32:12

Yeah, loving, it looks different. For all of us. Part of it is that rhythm of grace that I talked about a little bit, I, I write in depth about this paying attention to some of those signs, because we use it's very, you know, Christianese terminology, like the grace has lifted, and like, what does that mean? And and because, you know, his yoke is easy as His burden is light. There's always work to do. But when you start to realize like, what yoke are you wearing? Are you are you yoke to Jesus and the work that you're doing? Are you yoke to something entirely different? Are you just wearing the yoke all by yourself? And in in so for us, you know, okay, most recent shift pastoring in New York City, I thought we thought we were going to be there forever. I actually, in 2018, felt a shift and my husband didn't. He's like, no, no, we're still supposed to be here. I was like, Okay, I thought he because he's, he's running organization now that pastors, pastors and leaders, like pours into them, runs retreats, cares for pastors. So I thought that that shift was going to come in 2018. But he was like, No, and we weren't in agreement. So I let it go. And that was hard. So talk about reading the season. Well, right. I thought, I thought, Gosh, I thought it was now it wasn't a now word. It wasn't for that season, we passed her through 2020, the hardest years of our leadership life, we get to 2021. And he's still I mean, my husband has a high threshold for pain in leadership. He's just going for it. And we get to 2021. And that it was like a shift happened in him. And he goes, Okay, we're done. But also the right people were in place to take the church. And they weren't before. And so sometimes it's like watching, like, you can get a word or have this knowing and sense that something is shifting, but your timing can be way off. So it's been patient too. And if you're married, it's like you've got to be in agreement. Otherwise, you're dragging someone along, kicking and screaming. And that's never good for the marriage or for the call, you know, nothing's working really. So I think it's paying attention to things locking and loading. And then sometimes it's just you, you'll notice things are coming into place, where if you don't move, you're now in disobedience. And so it's different. And for every single person, depending on what that looks like. Some people are called to a region and a place their whole lives. And they're called even to the same job their whole lives. And change just looks like the nuance that goes in and throughout that stable thing that they're called to. So I think it's just knowing what that looks like, especially when it's like a personal change, but then there's the changes that happened to us that You didn't ask for but

Joshua Johnson: 35:03

I want to go just slightly, slightly deeper into hearing God's voice. What is it? How do we know? It's God's voice? How can we hear His voice?

Andi Andrew: 35:15

Yes, well, there's there. This is the beautiful thing about hearing God's voice. So contextually think about this, we are literally created by God to hear him. I mean, you look back in the Garden of Eden, and that was the original created purpose. So walk with Him, hear him know him intimately. The one thing that enemy comes in and does is He lies to us. And I find it so interesting that we're like, I can't hear God. But we will hear a lie from the enemy and grab it and lock and load and live in that lie. And in the meanwhile, we're saying I can't hear God. And I'm like, Well, that is a lie. You can. And we're all created differently. So I look at my four children, and how they hear God, first and foremost, everyone can hear God through scripture, everyone. So that's why to that is the basis of understanding, even hearing and knowing the voice of God and the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit speaks to you, is knowing the difference to be able to, to discern what's your thoughts? What is the Holy Spirit? And what is the voice of the enemy? So when you're in scripture on a daily basis, you start to know the sound of the voice of God. You know how he speaks? You know how he wouldn't speak. So then when the deceiver comes to deceive, you're like, No, that's not that's not right. And then there is the way of how we hear God, like how we all hear him differently. So like I said, My four kids, obviously, they all I'm like, they're in Scripture. So they know the word through that. But then I watched like, my eldest, like, he'll see pictures, which is so interesting, like a movie that plays in his head, and it looks like a movie trailer. And he's like, Whoa, I just saw this picture. And let me share it. And we, as he shares it, we can begin to perceive is this from God? Or is this just your imagination and something cool, you thought up? So it's paying attention to that, testing it? Some other people, they just intuitively have wisdom, and know that that's the voice of God. So you may never hear an audible voice, but you intuitively with wisdom, understand what the right thing to do is? And that's how God speaks through your life. Others, I've had people that I got, I literally heard the Holy Spirit saying this to me. I'm like, that's amazing. Wow. And then some of us it comes in as a God thought, like a God thought. There's, there's your thoughts. There's God thoughts, and there's the enemy's seeding thoughts. So there's multiple ways that we can hear and I think it's paying attention to that when I thought we were done pastoring the church in 2018, I saw like a movie trailer. Like my husband had come back from a retreat. And it was like, I got my husband back. And he does so well in small discipleship and caring for pastors and shepherding them. It's like his wheelhouse. Yes, he's an amazing teacher, and apostle of church plants are all those things. But I watch him come alive when he cares for pastors and leaders. And I saw the whole movie play out, I was like, I saw I was packing up our houses. I was like, we're done. And he's like, No, we're not. And, and realizing, like, oh, I have a timing issue, and maybe I'm wrong altogether. Maybe we will be in New York forever. But when he went, Okay, it was like his was a wisdom, knowing moment, that the trigger just got pulled, and we need to shift. So is that helpful? Yeah, that's

Joshua Johnson: 38:48

really helpful. I think a lot of people were like, okay, there are different ways to hear God, I could actually enter into the place where God has created me for, for this purpose in the way that I hear the way that I move in the world. So I think that's where the good for people, how do we do this as, as a collective, as a whole, as we are now saying, Hey, look at 2020 and we have a pandemic, and we're all in this change together? How do we Shepherd one another through change? And how do we deal with change as a collective? That's

Andi Andrew: 39:26

because we are like, again, we're in an election year. There are wars and there are rumors of wars. Like we're living in biblical times of birthing pain, like you know, we're seeing the shifting and the changing. So how do we do that? Well, there's a couple of things. Well, I think two we have to pay attention to what's going on even within the church. There is a revealing that's happening like God is actually in a place where holiness matters. And, and US laying down our lives for him really does matter and walking with His integrity really does matter. And so how we walk through this is, so when we watch pastors rise and fall, when we see these things that are hard for us, I think a lot of times you'll watch people leave the church. But how do we go? Okay, wait a second, come here come close, what were you connected to? Were you connected to Jesus or a personality, because their free will choices do not have to. It can grieve you, but it doesn't have to affect your walk with Jesus, unless you let it. So I think it's like being able to, to watch and perceive and truly be there for each other. When we're gonna walk through this next year, people are gonna, some people are gonna get loud, some people are gonna get quiet, opinions are gonna come out there, it's gonna be crazy. But we have to keep coming back to as the body of Christ. What are we actually building our lives on? Because the shaking of 2020 that's still kind of continued thinking, printing, cutting OS has revealed what we're building our lives on, hasn't it? I've, I think the heartbreak for me it has been watching people walk away from Jesus that I never thought would you know that, but how am I going to let that affect me? Will I continue to build my life? On the rock on the words of Jesus actually do what they say? Or will I listen? And then just kind of, I don't know, maybe I will, maybe I won't, because that's when the storms come. That's when we get in trouble. And so collectively, I think we need to really walk in integrity in personal integrity before God. We need to have our eyes lifted up, not just on ourselves and be caring for one another and seeing people and bringing them back to the rock and going, Hey, are you are you really living this? What are you building your life on? Let's have a look at that. And, and really asking, like being like being the church. And so I think just even those few couple of things. And I think just staying off your phone when you need to stay off your phone. I was talking to thinking about how these things have made us weirdos like we we wouldn't have this access. We live such simple lives. 15 years ago, 20 years ago, there was such simplicity. So how do we have discipline? And that? And how do we fix our eyes on the right thing and remove distraction from our lives so that we continue to build on the right thing and stay in strength in the changes that we're still going to maneuver as the body of Christ as Planet Earth over the next coming years until whenever he returns? I don't know, it could be 1000s of years could be we don't know, literally, he doesn't even know. So

Joshua Johnson: 42:47

that's really good. I think eliminating distractions is going to be really helpful for us and trying to create some new disciplines and rhythms and rhythms of grace in our lives and rhythms of a fix that that are are not doom scrolling. All the time. Stop

Andi Andrew: 43:06

it Stop the Doom scrolling.

Joshua Johnson: 43:10

Please. Yeah, please do. And if you could tell your readers listeners here one thing that you really hope that they would get from this book, what would you want them to carry with them as they read it?

Andi Andrew: 43:24

I think my hope would be that your lens for change, changes, that you welcome all types of change into your life as literally like my prayers that this is the discipleship tool. And that when we realize transition can be a teacher can take us out, that we will lean in to Christ in change. Because I think that's why this is why I could write this as I'm like, I don't ever like to write something that I haven't lived. I don't want to write a good idea. I want to write something that is kept me and this is what is kept in me I'm more in love with Jesus. I'm more in love with the church and and the believing that it is the vehicle for it is the hope of the world no matter what we're seeing, like, I truly believe that. But it's because I have kept my eyes fixed and fixed on Christ. And so my hope is that you know, this book will be a discipleship to tool, whatever change you're walking through, that you can find hope again and begin to rebuild and find the right rhythms again and grieve where you need to grieve and find hope. Hoping the storms that you will walk through. That's That's my hope.

Joshua Johnson: 44:37

There is hope in the storms. Amen. Amen. How about for the person who says, I have felt the nudge in the Holy Spirit. I know change is necessary and needed but I'm, I'm afraid and I'm scared to do it. What would you say to them?

Andi Andrew: 44:56

I would say picture your life in five years time. And you didn't operate in obedience to the change, you knew you were supposed to operate and just go down that road. How are you going to feel? And knowing that you needed to give it a shot? I mean, I know for for us. I remember when we were going to plant our church. And I just watched my husband and I. And I knew that if he didn't, I was terrified. I did not want to move our children to New York City. I did not I didn't, I was like, I'm fine. God, I'm fine. I want to just private little cushy little life. And but I knew my husband would die on the line. And I knew that we needed to at least try the worst thing that can happen. The worst, you fail and you're wrong. And then you just humble yourself, and you turn right back around and you try again. And you grow, you'll grow no matter what. When you feel that nudge, oh, I don't be disobedient. That's what I would say. Jump in and face your fears. And move through it. Yeah, yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 46:10

we got to move through that transition, move through the change and just go and yet continue to be obedience. And I love that you you brought up the the story of the Wise and Foolish builder that being wise, we can actually brave all the changes in our, in our story in our lives, and our relationship with Jesus and with family and friends, and our career and profession, and all of the things that have us wrapped up in our life. But we could brave that, well, when we build our house. On the rock. When we hear the words of Jesus, we put them into practice that will sustain us for the long haul that we can move forward with purpose into change. It's good. Andy, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Andi Andrew: 47:00

Oh, my 29 year old self. Calm down. That's it, it's gonna be okay. You can't do everything in your 21 year old self, you're gonna live a lot of seasons. Just enjoy where you are right now.

Joshua Johnson: 47:20

Enjoy. Oftentimes subway when we're in our early 20s. We think we can do it all at the same time. Yeah, at

Andi Andrew: 47:28

the same time. I know we had a lot more energy. But still, like, chill out. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 47:37

it's good. It's really good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend.

Andi Andrew: 47:41

Oh, so reading lately, I have been reading the book trust by Dr. Henry Cloud, which has been really, really powerful, I would pull it out for you. But I have just moved house and I don't know where it is. So I've got to find it. Because the subtitle is really good, but it's long, and I don't remember it fully. But it's a book about trust learning when to give it when to receive it and how to cultivate it in your life. And so it's art, when to give it when to withhold it and how to cultivate in your life. So I think that that has been just a really, that's a really great book at the moment. I also am a big world war two historical fiction novel reader. So I love that All the Light We Cannot See is out on Netflix because I read that book. And it's one of my favorite books. I haven't watched it yet though, probably because we've been moving house. So I haven't really been watching a lot of TV. But, um, but that that book was really good, too. So those are two that I can think of right now.

Joshua Johnson: 48:45

I love it. But Andy, this was a fantastic conversation. Thank you for walking us through the journey of transition and change that we could step into it. We could jump and be obedient to the nudging of the Holy Spirit, we could learn how to cultivate hearing God's voice, recognizing when the Holy Spirit says to move and to change and to shift and to cultivate community and safe spaces. So that we can grieve well, that we could grieve the losses and that we can know that we could move forward together with others in community and then change. It was a really good conversation. I really appreciate it. So thank you so much.

Andi Andrew: 49:23

Thank you for having me.