Ep. 166 Wai Jia Tam - Saying Yes to God Despite the Setbacks

In this episode, Wai Jia Tam shares her incredible story of discovering Jesus and following Him despite facing many obstacles and setbacks along the way. Wai Jia grew up in a Buddhist home in Singapore but had a powerful encounter with God as a teenager that set her on a journey of faith. She shares about her experiences serving in Nepal as a young woman and how God provided in amazing ways. Wai Jia also walked through great difficulties like depression, an eating disorder and a major spinal surgery, but trusted God through it all. In this conversation she offers wisdom on discerning God's voice and taking small steps of obedience even when we feel too small. I know you'll be inspired by Wai Jia's story of God's faithfulness and how He can use our pain for His purposes. So join us as we discover how small steps of obedience can result in big dreams.

Wai Jia Tam is a multi-award-winning, international humanitarian, doctor, and speaker. Selected for Forbes Asia's inaugural 30 under 30 list, she has been featured in numerous international media outlets and is the founder of Kitedreams ministry and Kitesong Global. Learn more at kitedreams.org or follow her on Instagram @tamwaijia

Wai Jia's book:
Dream Brave

Wai Jia's Recommendations:
Walking with God Through Pain and Suffering
Counterfeit Gods

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Wai Jai Tam: 0:00

It's about realizing that we can have faltering fee we cannot tiny fee we can be I feel that shaky and wavering, but it's good we put it in the evening makes all the difference. And I think up to today, I still remind myself that life changing experience in all that I do because it'd be nice be If God could use me. But I was so broken back then. Then why should I be free? Oh, what the tool

Joshua Johnson: 0:42

Hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcasts app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy. It only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. We if you want to dig deeper, or find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Craig Greenfield, Jamie Winship, and Jesse Cruickshank. You go back listen to those episodes, and more. But today's guest is why she had tam why she is a multi award winning international humanitarian doctor and speaker. She was selected for Forbes Asia's inaugural 30 under 30 list has been featured in the numerous international media outlets and is the founder of kite dreams ministry and kite song global. In this episode, while she shares her incredible story of discovering Jesus, and following him despite facing many obstacles and setbacks along the way. My Shia grew up in a Buddhist home in Singapore but hadn't a powerful encounter with God as a teenager that set her on a journey of faith. She shares about her experiences serving in Nepal as a young woman, and how God provided in amazing ways. While she also walked through great difficulties like depression, an eating disorder and major spinal surgery, but trusted God through it all. In this conversation, she offers wisdom on discerning God's voice and taking small steps of obedience, even when we feel too small. I know you'll be inspired by why she has story of God's faithfulness and how he could use our pain for his purposes. So join us as we discover how we can be faithful and take small steps of obedience. Here's my conversation with y Shia tam iy geo Welcome to the podcasts really excited to have you on. Thank you so much for getting up early. And joining me on the show.

Wai Jai Tam: 3:25

Well, it is my pleasure, Joshua. It's a 30 here in Singapore. And there's no better way to start today by talking about Jesus. So I'd like to

Joshua Johnson: 3:36

start early in the morning at 530 in the morning to talk about your story with Jesus. I know you grew up in a Buddhist home. How did you find Jesus? What was your journey like of discovering who he was and starting to follow him?

Wai Jai Tam: 3:51

Wow, that is? That is a question. That's quite a loaded question. I never expected to become a Christian because growing up in a very, an environment with many different kinds of gods and idols. We believed in all kinds of different philosophies and, and gods and I remember we would dry it up a couple of hours, almost every year to Malaysia where we would worship like, you know, 100 foot long kind of sleeping Buddha and it was right at that moment. When I was maybe when I was 16 or so that while I was praying on my knees in that temple, I felt this stirring inside of me like a voice telling me I am God. God I am not here. And that was the first time I think I felt like I had a connection with God and that He wasn't in the form of a statue on somebody I had to sacrifice give up. Give up things for bye joysticks go through all kinds of rituals. And that's what began my journey of faith, but nothing sealed, right thief. Like the first time I went for a mission trip. And that was when I went by myself, I made a couple of calls to organizations. And I asked a very seemingly like, foolish or naive question, I would like us anywhere in the world that you need a help it, I would love to go. And they said, Oh, yes, there is a place in Nepal. Right now there is the Maoist uprising. There's a lot of political instability, all volunteers pulled out the way to go. Because the help is still there. You know, it's tough to meet it. And of course, I told my very conservative, traditional Asian father about it. And having had a daughter who has never stayed out neater than 10pm all her life. Even pro prom, he said, No, are you crazy? And I remember just telling God like God, if you are real, if you are real, you have to show me right, you have to change. And that was when I think began a real relationship with God because I started talking to God I never knew. And even then all that time, I still felt doubt. I kept feeling like, God maybe are real, maybe you're not. But I'm just going to keep talking to you and see how this pans out. So it's kind of like a testing water kind of thing. And the amazing thing was my father, who has only a tiny company of five staff at the time, had one staff who happened to know a Singaporean missionary who was returning from Nepal for furlough. But it's a cup of tea. And we didn't met her. And she managed to convince my dad to let me go. Yeah, so that was the beginning, I think of my journey of faith. And what happened after that, I think was was was life changing. And so that began, my my faith in God, knowing that He is real. And he does listen to the littlest prize of our hearts.

Joshua Johnson: 7:02

I think sometimes that's, that's the opposite of what happens as you, you go down the journey with faith. And I know, in the West, there's a there's a difference. I've you know, as someone who leads a missions organization, myself, and we have workers all over the world, we have people that hear from God, do what he says, and really amazing things happen because of that. And a lot of times, you know, you're probably speaking to some, some in the audience where they want to believe that they want to say, great things will happen when we listen to God. But I don't know if it can happen for me. If you are talking to somebody. Now, what would you say about the God who is alive, that can speak to them? And that could lead them into greater pastures in greater places? What would you say? For them to take a step towards seeing God like that? Wow.

Wai Jai Tam: 8:05

Well, thanks for asking that, Joshua. Because that was exactly how I felt as a 17 year old in Nepal, feeling overwhelmed feeling tiny, clean, like nobody. In fact, I grew up mostly feeling depressed, awkward about myself. And it was thought, man, you know, in college, God of the universe, why would he waste time with me, you know, and I remember, while I was in Nepal, I just knew that it wasn't a coincidence that we were evicted. traumatically overnight. I was staying in our children's home was like 30 other girls who have been abused and abandoned. And I got to know these missionary house parents, and I was shocked to know that every year they would face like an eviction from the new landlord because there was such a stigma on unwanted girls. And it's a time when we were evicted. i i wish i was so sharp. I didn't know what to so we literally move the entire home like down to the littlest girl who three years old. She was picking us up in her underwear in had to dismantle all the beds and the kitchen all by ourselves. And I just looked at the world unravel around me and asked God like God, in your view, you can for these girls that would you allow me to do something for them. Like I had applied to medical school, but I hadn't heard back I had no credentials. I didn't know any Christian. I didn't have like a, you know, Christian legacy where I had a network of people pastors to fall back on. I was like, God, what am I supposed to do? And all I just prayed was God if you want real, again, testing God again, you know, for self doubt, right? Jesus, Are you real? You know, I was like, God, you have to show me that. You are reeling you hear our prayers. And so all I did was just see. God helped me to do something for these girls. And in the next couple of days, a story a new story about A girl and her kite, and all the pictures. So just download it in my mind. And then you just knew I had to go back and pick them. So when I was dropped out at the Kathmandu airport with Paul, I remember being dropped off. And then I ran back to the pastor's car. And they said, Pastor Eric, I said, you know, I have this idea, and it's not, but if they if I published a little picture book and use it to raise funds for a new world for the girls, and maybe you guys want me to walk anymore. And he was like, Yeah, of course, you have to do it, you have to believe in it. He's like, that's what we just need. It's a permanent home. jasha, you wouldn't believe it. But when I went back to Singapore, I literally was led from one stranger to the next. And before I knew it, like in the next three months, paid, some was published my first picture. And then the following three months, like over$100,000, was raised. And in my living room, I have this picture of the girls here. In the end, the same positions are 10 years apart. And that picture forever reminds me that in spite of how little heartbroken how unwanted that we are, as long as we keep quiet, the smallest price of our heart, that God is real, and he does listen, reading, that's what the dream brain is about. Like, it's a combination of all these experiences that I've had with God, and God on Hebrews 11, showing us these really aims, it's not about the size of how great your faith is. It's about realizing that we can have altering fee, we can not tiny fee, we can pay a fee that shaky and wavering, but it's good, we put it in that really makes all the difference. And I think up to today, I still remind myself off that like teaching experience and all that I do because it reminds me of God could use me. But I was so broken back then that why should I be what he can't do? Why

Joshua Johnson: 12:02

are people here that know? That is incredible. And I have some dreams in my heart. And but I'm afraid to take those first steps to to enact something like there is a small cry my heart I want to see this happen. But I don't know if I can do that myself. As somebody who is who is a young woman there that didn't have much the all you really had was, you know, your, your artistry, that you were able to paint some pictures to get that published and raise $100,000 for a home. What would be some first steps for people to say, A, I can start to say yes to the dreams, my heart and follow what God has for me.

Wai Jai Tam: 12:47

Wow, that's such a great question, Josh. You know, I think when we think about dreaming, we always think about dreaming big. I think it's just a standard of our culture. And that can be so intimidating. But what I really want to encourage people to do is just to start by dreaming small. In fact, that was the first working title of my book, instead of dreaming brave it wet dream small. You know, hey, I just love the idea of starting small because Kingdom is so topsy turvy, you know, the way up is actually the way down. And people look back at like my trajectory I love years ago, I was deployed with the United Nations and the World Health Organization COVID-19 specialist Africa for a good number of weeks. And when people look at that, and they say, Well, why don't you really on this path of like forever dreaming big achievement, achieving big goals, you know, like, like, how did that happen? And I always have to remind them and say, you know how I got to working with the W H O in the UN, it wasn't through, you know, networking, or like striving and hustling, which I actually did while I was at Johns Hopkins. When God sent me there. That's another miraculous story, how you've been quite there. But when he was out, he just hustled and I hustled culture, I'm like, I'm gonna change my own life by climbing up my ladder, you know, and God just shut every door. In his mercy and grace, He shut me down. So sometimes when we don't get the dreams we want, it's actually God's way of protecting life. He doesn't want us to carry a narrative of I can do it all. And the world's got to depend on me. And while I was at Johns Hopkins, he actually broke that. All he wanted me to do was start a little nonprofit called catesol. Global based on what I've done. And you know, when I started that nonprofit at Johns Hopkins, I taught the Lord I said, God, this is so not my dream. Like, you know, it's not glamorous, like I actually came here like when scholarships I had to answer to the board. And I'm gonna go back to tell them I started Wyatt, like seriously. And God just told me to just obey Him like step by step. And so with that little nonprofit, what happened was that, of course, I never predicted COVID-19 will break out when he came back. I didn't predict that because I was away from Super for a good number of years that it will be so hard to fit back into the system. Because when the pandemic broke up, I had no idea what I was supposed to do. And the I was with this process of public health, not knowing where to fit in. And I just talked about what happened to those big dreams that you gave to me. I am now overwhelmed and intimidated. And even though I had all these credentials behind me, it just seemed like, like what you said, you have this sense of inertia. And even really, you feel like you know, you know what you got to do, you just can't. The funny thing was 10s of 1000s of low wage, migrant workers were infected with COVID 19. And I got a request from a mentor who said, Vijay, can you just draw some help booklets for us because regular workers, they are all coming in with like, more than eight different diverse languages. We can't communicate with them. It's overwhelming for them. There's a lot of anxiety possibly addressed. Can you just draw some pictures and get them translated? And graphed at any restaurant? I assumed fee. I thought that was too small for me. And I just told God, like, like, seriously, what did you hear me when I said I wanted to work with the why the UN, like it was when such a tie with this, like, hello, I'm still here. And it was through thing yesterday and the requests My husband was the one who reminded me he's like, why Jack, I see that look on your face. He just, he's just like with me. He said, Look at the devotional today on Oswald Chambers. He said, as he claims Yes, just 910 Whatever your hand finds to do do it with all your mind. And I just knew it was gonna be it was a devotional for that day. And so I started fewers. furiously drawing and illustrating. And because I set up catesol, global as a nonprofit, that was actually a we had the infrastructure to translate into print. And to just turn this around in the shortest time possible, we were able to do it before any of the health care institutions or classes could do that. And before we knew it, we were printing 10s of 1000s of different kinds of booklets, and then posters. And one day, I just got an email from the chairperson of the World Health Organization steering committee in Singapore. And he's like, Are you a professional cartoonist, because we want to hire you. So I told you the following slides, I'm a doctor, and he puts me in charge of like, nationwide health communications with with migrant worker. And it was through that, that I got to working with the World Health Organization and the United Nations and then getting with them. So when I look back, Josh, what that tells me is that when we have big dreams down the road, there isn't straightforward, like we think, and it isn't about how much I can do for God, but rather how much we are willing to humble ourselves by Him, when He shows us those opportunities to say yes, one baby step at a time. So maybe we have a dream to like endo serve orphans in a developing country. But are we even willing to foster children in our own city? Maybe our dream is to, you know, start a huge initiative like that nationwide. But in the first place, are we willing to do something small for our community and our church? And that's, that's something I keep reminding myself, of course, like, like, like, I'm always enamored, right by these glamorous, wow, adventurous things that God does. But I always remind myself of a day when I was in the elevator, and her husband just looked at me and he rolled his eyes. And he's like, I know that I say, No, but just remember, you know, God's watching you and you just gotta see if it's for you, though. So thank God for good hesitancy. Yes,

Joshua Johnson: 18:56

yes. It's great to have somebody in your life that could actually speak some truth to you. So you could walk in it. If you talk to somebody now and say, How do I discern the voice of God knowing that he's telling me to do the small step? Oftentimes, we because you know, you're talking about big dreams. We forget to do the small things like you're talking about, but God is speaking his voice and saying, This is what I want you to obey. How do we discern His voice? And then say yes to that and move forward in it?

Wai Jai Tam: 19:32

Wow, that is such a great question, Josh. I I love I love just being on this journey discerning God. One thing that he's has really changed my life is Henry back in his book, experiencing God and in it he talks about how discerning God is about understanding a couple of things. Firstly, finding alignment with your word, finding inner peace through prayer, finding alignment or discernment based on through community, and then mentors, and then looking at circumstances around. So I've listed about five things that we can use. And I always encourage people to use them as sort of like a toolkit from which we can we and discern how God is speaking. Because sometimes we can fall into the error or like saying, Oh, wow, just one mentor told me that, or this one circumstance, it's so divine, like, I met this guy in supermarket twice, he must be the one in front of me. And no, it's not it's about using our circumstances are the inner peace that we feel are something that we've read in the Bible, and using that to weigh against all the other four different pillars, as I call it. So with these five different aspects, I feel like God gives us a really good toolkit for which we can kind of weigh in and decide these boys, because he does speak actively to us. So one thing I have loved, of course, it makes that journey so much more challenging. But it's also exciting, even as we learn to challenge ourselves to decide. And also want to encourage people to realize it's okay to make mistakes. You know, it's okay to discern and then realize that, oh, my, I actually took that a little too, literally from that mentor, or that friend of mine. Or maybe that advice from that person wasn't so good, because I obviously missed out something that the Bible was trying to see. Or maybe I, I looked too much into the circumstances. And perhaps it was no more than a coincidence. And yet, even through all these experiences, God's grace and mercy covers us. So I always like to say, I always like to think that it's okay to err on the side of being courageous just to take steps forward. If not, we'll just be living in fear of making a mistake.

Joshua Johnson: 21:53

I think one of the biggest things that God says throughout the Bible is to not be afraid, have courage, I'm with you, in what you're doing, you know, we have when we got married, my, my wife, sister was able to paint a banner for us that has a quote, the great stories go to those who don't give into fear. And that's what we have been trying to live by is living into great stories, because and not giving into fear. How can you how can somebody now that they have discerned God's voice and saying, Okay, I might know what the first step is. But how could somebody not given to the fear that they have a failure, or now this isn't going to work out? Or maybe this isn't even God's voice? How could we step into those great stories, and not given the fear?

Wai Jai Tam: 22:43

Who Georgia, you are sharing that? What it reminds me of what my family is walking through right now, we've been praying over the past year to relocate to Tanzania, in Africa. And in the end, it's been a dream, to for us to relocate, to serve in long term mission in a developing country. As you know, George, one of the hardest things is after you decided in your heart, to actually move forward with it, because at so many points, I think we want it to back out when we face opposition, when people were, you know, accusing us of being irresponsible, or when you just look at your work and how much you aren't leaving behind or even your career, you just feel you get cold feet. And then one of the things that I learned growing up is people often tell me like, don't tell the public don't tell people because then when you do space, so to speak, in Chinese, that's a term, Julian literally means like, you're throwing your face away. It's like, it's so shameful, you know, if you if you if you tell someone your dream, and then you change your mind. So the idea is really don't tell anyone keep your dreams to yourself. I mean, what's the big deal? Just tell God. But one thing, I've appreciated his community, that word that you use Joshua, it's so powerful, because when he first shared it with my husband and human resonated, and then we decided, You know what, we're going to share it with some mentors with some Ben, in the writer on a planet, or it just became more and more real. And, at the time, really want it to plow. We just felt like, you know, what, we actually shared our story with enough people that it's not going to be as easy as just flipping a switch and just saying, Good night, we're going to wake up in the morning and just stay in our comfort zones. It's just not possible anymore. And so when one thing leads to another and you surround yourself with a community of people who believe in your dream, I think that makes all the difference. So this month is actually my last one working. I couldn't believe it like saying goodbye to my job. The The interesting thing is also that the more people you tell, the more naysayers in opposition you're also going to get So it's one thing I have to give people a heads up well, on one hand community is wonderful. On the other hand, we've got to be prepared for pushback, because so many people told me not to quit my job, they said, We will continue hanging on, get some income, at least until you actually move because right now, we're in this period of uncertainty. And that that's what I talk about the number of chapters of my book, Dream brave. It's a lot of times like that, between dreaming a dream and actually fulfilling it are many, many years of tension and uncertainty. And it's almost like walking in a fog. So right now, our work permits in Tanzania had been delayed. There is a big question about when whether it will even get through. And here I am having quit my job getting, you know, housing agents to look at our house renting it out. And I'm like, Am I crazy? But I think about it. Yeah, as I see, you know what? obeying God is just about taking one step at a time. Like, Psalm 118 105 tells us your word, is a lamp to my feet, and right into my pot, and it just keep telling myself, you know, what, it's just one step at a time, one step at a time. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 26:13

well, let's take one step at a time. And I think that's really helpful to say, you know, not kind of given the fear. And I know in your story, that you've experienced a lot of different setbacks. And a lot of people, I mean, some people are listening to this, like, and everything is working out for her. This is wonderful. So but tell us some of those setbacks, some things that were have been really difficult and how you worked through them to continue to move towards what God has for you.

Wai Jai Tam: 26:45

Wow. Who just shot when I was in medical school? Wow, this is such a loaded question. Yeah. Talking about trials and tribulations. I've got plenties. I mean, I mean, imagine, I mean, you think, Oh, this girl is Fulbright Scholar, she got a Hopkins or you know, she's got everything fine. And then then the, like hunky dory, right? I scraped through medical school. I almost feel Joshua, because I was supposed to be worded for anorexia and depression. I literally crawled through medical school. In my fourth year, I remember thinking that maybe the easy way out was to jump off my university Da Vinci balcony. And I just told myself that there is just no way that I could graduate. And I was a burden to everybody around me, there was just no way out. There was so much guilt, because I was already a building go by then. And I thought to myself, How can kite song and all those wonderful things have happened. And then suddenly, I plugged it into this abyss. And actually, that's not uncommon, like when God gives you a dream, sometimes your life can seem to spiral out of control. And sometimes that's, that's part of spiritual warfare. Suck times that that is real. And when I walked through those dark days, I mean, we're just holding on to God and asking him to make himself real to me. And so I remember one day, as I was praying, God gave me a patient, or Lee speaking on the stage to an international audience, and I was an impairment. And I literally laughed at myself. I like, like, I like nobody, like people find it hard even to remember by me, it's such a mouthful in like, a western context, you know? And I'm like, Are you kidding me? And I kid you not rush oil. Like, about seven to eight years later, when I was at Hopkins, I received a phone call from a stranger who said, I just like, would you come speak at our conference in Nashville. And I was like, what? And she was like our conference, it's got hungry for hope. It's about giving hope to people who have been through eating disorders and depression. Looks like, you've got to be kidding me. How did you even get my number? And she said, I got a copy of your little book, or at least a rainbow. And that was the second book I've done. While I was recovering from anorexia. That little book was passed to her from a friend of hers with a sister in law, or somebody who is the faculty member and a colleague of my supervisor. It was like five degrees of separation or something like that. And that was how I got to Nashville and started speaking. And that showed me how God uses our pain for a purpose. Our Stories, Our dreams are amplified when he brings us through the depths of the valley. And even right now, as I'm talking to you, I feel like I'm in a place of gratitude because just a couple of months ago, where I was suddenly scheduled for spine surgery and remit so I actually have a huge scar that you probably can't see right now but the I actually had to pull my trachea, my breathing tube apart wrong way, like the main artery that goes to my heart. And they had to take up part of my spine and replace it with titanium. And I was like, God, I'm at the peak of my life right now in ministry in my career and everything, like, how did that happen? So when that happened, I, I just fell into this valley for a couple of weeks, I stopped. I mean, I was an itinerant speaker. I was like speaking every other week, you know, I was up on my feet. I was. I was at the gym every morning at 60. And we were at high intensity exercise, it just will do it disappeared. And I thought to myself, like Why, oh, God, why are you doing? I felt God speak to me about the treasures of darkness. That in Isaiah 4020 45, verse three, when it says, you know, God can serve the treasures of darkness, I realized, wow, oh, God, you know what, this is such a bizarre, bewildering overwhelming experience, I'm not going to waste it, I'm going to mine it. So in those days of where I was being hospitalized in the intensive care unit, when I was, you know, in excruciating pain, I actually lost function of my fingers, I hit limitations in, in typing and writing, in cooking, you're exercising, and I had this pain that went from my neck to my fingers. It was I, I just felt like God was putting his finger on the things in my life, which I had tied my identity to, because you know, my right hand is why I do everything I love. And so God used that situation to remind me that he cares so much more about who we are, and our characters, way more than what we can ever do for him. And so when I was laying in bed, when I would start going, well, I spent all chair thought preaching not exercising, not typing, I couldn't even read at one point, because just looking down with her. I just knew that God was doing it in our work in my life. And, you know, after the surgery, Josh, I wish I could tell you like I just sprang up and out of my hospital chair. And the funny thing was, I was connected to other people who had gone through the same surgery, in the hopes that I would get supported by the worst thing was the people I talked to were the same surgery or worse than me. They felt better right the next day. And one of them even told me they didn't need physiotherapy. Whereas I had to go through almost Well, we have physiotherapy before I couldn't live pain free. All that to say that God need those 12 leads to work through those stubborn layers of my life, that high achieving, you know, hartsel striving person who just wanted to maximize everything she had quite just find that need to understand that he wanted me to work on the chakra. And so if that wasn't bad enough, Josh on the 12 week mark, when I was supposed to be resuming normal activity, I suffered a physiotherapy induced knee injury. And when the doctor did the MRI told me that the physiotherapist had torn my mind beneath. I was devastated. I couldn't walk properly for a number of weeks. And I just went back to God again and said, God, this is like one storm after another do you just not want us to go to tend to the idea just why not want us to go overseas like what is too. And one thing that I learned is that it's through the builder mind or for storms that God gives us opportunity to see what he's three and our character. It's through all those dark times, all I knew was that God had never left me. So even right now, I think this week is stuck. Last week, I was actually able to completely paint me. And next week, when I'm scheduled to go to the States to speak, God was challenging me. He just showed me the story of Jonah, that you know, Jonah was set for one direction and he turned Jonah in the other direction. And I actually resonated with Jonah self righteousness. I thought that my dream was to go into the mission field by this time and do what I got to do, you know, a comic just showing me like white Yeah. Like, I created this book in you. Like, did you not think that I would want you to speak about it or do something about it? And so, like trash, even this whole, like book tour thing to the state was so unplanned. All I did was just tell God like I will avail myself from the second of February to the 21st. And if you avail any opportunities in the States when we that I will do it. Then when that happened, God just started opening one door after another and it wasn't It wasn't like a swoosh thing. It wasn't like, wow, you know, you are this hot speaker, you're hot stuff and like you got all this lined up or in your No, no, it wasn't like that at all. It was like, nobody knows me like, seriously. I'm a nobody in the States, right? Like I really, really nobody, like why would anybody want to ask me to speak? And all God wanted me to say yes to him. So all I did was just avail those things for you. Before I knew it, Christine chains team asked me to go in upon it one thing led to another, they invited me to their conference. So I said, Okay, God, if I say yes to this conference, I'll know that you want me to be in California, because that's where it was. And you wouldn't believe it. The conference timing was between the second to the 25. And so being the Maximizer that I am I see God, there's a weekend before that, or weekend after that, you know, can you help me schedule something? And the old me you would have just sent out 1000 emails and say, Hello, I'm here to speak, would you have me a conditional mind that he just wanted me to pray and be at breath? And remember by then, you know, I couldn't walk very well. You are still recovering from my neck pain and my spine. And so God was just using that to remind me not to rely on my own strength, and but every time I'd had the laptop, every time I hit walking up on my feet, it was already mentioned. It was no longer allowed to do I can No, it was like God, I have this fuel in it to the to do what I can for you. How am I going to use it as intentionally as I can. And so when speaking engagements came in, they were very caught LED. I was asked to be a keynote speaker at this conference at the conference. And I was shocked because I was ready to say no, I was ready to have in the States is so huge. What were the chances that one thing would line up one after the other. The weekend before the conference, California, I was asked to speak at L A. and then only last week, only last week, I addressed like two weeks shy of my trip. I'm still I still had a couple of weekends that were not feel. And I was like, Okay, go ahead. If there's nothing else I bet I'm okay with that. The moment I had senior pastor of another church in LA, contacted me, and I was just floored because he told me I was like, I'm like, like, why would you trust me to speak on your pulpit? Right? And he's like, You wouldn't believe there's a pastor in Australia, whom you don't even know, wrote to me and said, I needed to invite you, because you'd been in the area. And I was like, this can only be gone. And just just a couple of days ago when my husband said, okay, the best way to fly back, it's actually through Canada. And I said, Why really, we're gonna go through your hometown, because he's he's Canadian, Chinese Canadian. And I'm like, that's kind of not efficient. You know, as you can see, I'm all about efficiency, you know, again, and he's like, why'd ya record a B? There's like no street flight from Bristol. Anyway. So you, like, let's just go to Canada. And it was only after I said yes to that, that the largest TV station in Canada contacted me and asked me to short or two interviews for that recording, that was scheduled to be in the days that we would be in Canada. So all that to say that, you know, like Jonah, we all have our own plans. But when God tells us to do something, like he, he will make it like that. Like, sometimes we think, Oh God, I'm nobody, you know, added to the uninstaller it'd be in different contexts, we will feel like we are nobody, so it's just the truth. Right? That's just the truth. So when I'm in the States, I feel like wow, I'm like a fish out of water, you know, but God showed me through Jonah, that Jonah did not need to be like a super qualified, like, preacher. All he said was like one line, like, you know, for the deeds and Merola and then, you know, the whole of the tribute for saved like, that would literally be the caliber that he caught one at his obedience. And so to answer that's a long answer to your question. But sometimes, you know, God put these setbacks in our life. We believe we we we caught up in the game as far as our good and when we put our trust to believe that he gets caught. And we begin to appreciate see those treasures that that we would otherwise never get to be called. Had we not opened our eyes to see it Lord, you up good. Up in the dark.

Joshua Johnson: 39:45

Yeah, that's so good. And that's really helpful for a lot of people saying that he's good even in the dark, even that, the setbacks, the difficult things, the depression, you know, the anorexia, everything that you've gone through that God can starts it Use your pain for some purpose. And he could walk you through that. Do you think that as we're saying yes to God, and we know that spiritual warfare is going to take place, and there's going to be opposition? Is there a way for us to prepare for that? So we could walk through it, and hold on to our identity as children of God and knowing who we are as we walk through spiritual warfare?

Wai Jai Tam: 40:24

Well, Josh, I'm going to take a leaf from your book, I'm going to say, community or self with courage, and I think I got to print out something like that better on my own home. Right? Because like, like, if we're going to shut back, then we're going to be thought about but I kid me, I kid you not like up to today, I still get the jitters. You know, before I do something, like so called significant or God is always that that sickness that comes up or that that that star that seems to be nearby. And what I found really helpful is to have a group of friends and mentors, who I actually always review on my on my little list. And I see who's who is God, showing me to work with me to season because people change and we don't want to hold them bound to us, right forever. So I always have to at least constantly evolving. And it's not a long list, but it's like a group of five to six prayer supporters, prayer warriors, will say, Why do you need, you're going to escape the equation, you're moving right, or you're this, you're that I'm going to be praying for you. Because it always it's like the spine surgery, everything unraveled, actually, shortly after my book manuscript was submitted. To even the publishing team, they were all rallying around the printing, and saying, you know, if it's warfare, then God, we're going to stand in the gap. And so I always encourage people, like, never underestimate the power of community. Because even if you don't feel like you have a community right now, maybe people who are listening right now, a lot of people, maybe I'm charged with the church, you know, not having the study, Christian community start with one, start with one, because so many people come to me and say, you know, what, why don't we not like you, we don't have like, a, you know, supporting community. But I say start with one, and from one becomes two. And honestly, you don't need a lot of people, you need people who will go deep with you, the valley.

Joshua Johnson: 42:29

You know, one of the we have a hub in in East Asia. And we're trying to send Chinese speakers to the rest of the world to send them out as missionaries. And one of the biggest difficulties to be able to do that, is the the parents of people who say yes, and want to go. Right, you know, really dodgy parents? What would you say? How would how do we get to a place with, you know, for us sending Chinese speakers out? And how do we deal with it with parents that are reticent to send and let their children go?

Wai Jai Tam: 43:09

Wow, wow. jumpshot, you are asking the right person? Because the first chapter of my book is when a loved one say no.

Joshua Johnson: 43:17

And that's why I'm asking you.

Wai Jai Tam: 43:19

That's what I'm Oh, my goodness. That is that is so hard, actually we are walking through right now. And I have to say, it never gets easier. We are walking to that right now. Because one of our very, very close mentors, is extremely against us going to Tanzania. And you know what, sometimes we got to take that, because it's not about somebody told me this. And I think it's so true. It's not about how many voices say yes to you. It's not about taking a vote. It's not like a poll, like oh, no, because nine out of 10 mentors, it's okay for me to do this. So I'm going to send out that lone voice that really is the voice of God. So we can't do a poll. But what we can do is keep taking one step in front of the other and asking God, God surely. And I think one of the main things I have learned is to really wrestle put ourselves in that wrestling ring with God, because it's so easy to Jessie and guardian, what you allow me to be under the hierarchy of these parents are mentored and therefore if they say no, it will be no, sometimes I think people use that as a cop out. And I want to call it out. Because when you know When King Herod demanded that all the baby boys be put to death, that the midwives did not obey Moses parents did not obey. Was it because they were rebellious and anti God? No, it was precisely because they loved it. So I think we need to remember that while those moments shouldn't be everyday daily movements, like if we are walking in a practice of rebellion and defy authority, that is a problem. If we are walking in submission on a consistent basis, then we got to look for those modes. moment and say, you know, what if I just give into the copper that, hey, you know, my parents or my mentor just said that it's a little dangerous. It's kind of risky that I'm not going to do that, then we lose the opportunity to live that adventure with God in the legacy behind it, because look what Moses did. So when it comes to parents and me, okay, when it comes to Asian culture, it is very complicated, like, families can be very unmanaged. But I believe even in the American, like Western context, I think those of us, many of us will face opposition, and we'll go around it is there is no easy way. There is a lot of navigation that is Labtech involved, it's not as easy as walking away from that mentor, as well just see, I don't care about you. Because God is about relationships. I think it's about being tactful and sensitive, and just remaining opens and say, You know what, I really appreciate your eyes, I am going to take it very seriously. And I'm going to go back to God with ground zero. And that's actually what we did with recently with my knee injury. And all three people are telling us maybe that's not God's will for you to go to the mission field. And I all I said was, you know what, I'm going to go back to ground zero, which got with this, I'm not going to say no to you, because I don't want to miss out on what God could be speaking about. So I always encourage people go back to ground zero, don't cop out, wrestle with the way Jacob did, like the intensity of our restaurants should be like when Jacob wrestled with the angel, and said, God, I will not let you go until you bless me until you speak to me. And literally, I felt God put my main ring year out of joint as he did with Jacob because he wanted to give me a new identity of someone who was fully submitted and surrendered. And I see you're raising your eyebrows just because you must be thinking well, after the spine operation Wasn't that enough? And I asked him certain questions too cautious. Well, curiosity wanted to go deep. But

Joshua Johnson: 47:04

yeah, he always wants to take us deeper. And he takes us deeper and deeper and deeper. And there's really not, there's also not an end to our submission to Him surrenders empathy. There's not an end to his love for us. And He wants all of us because He loves us so much. And he will give all have him self to us, as well. As beautiful. If you can say to your readers, people who read dream brave and say, Hi, I want to put this into practice. What would you want them to get out of your book? How do you want them to change and live in a new way? Because of what they have read?

Wai Jai Tam: 47:46

Wow. Wow, thank you for asking that. Joshua. I think the one takeaway I would love people to have is to get to live by faith, even when you feel too small. That is the start. I mean, the various I think, the greatest theme of the book, even when you feel small, to dare to take that first step forward, because they always start with the first step. Yeah, yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 48:20

Why don't you if you could go back to your 21 year old self? What advice would you give? Yeah.

Wai Jai Tam: 48:26

Oh, wow. If I could go back to the 21 year old cell. Oh, God, that would be a very long list. I would see this. Everybody has baggage. Everybody has trauma. Don't let that hold you back. Use that as a launch pad. Because so many people come to me and tell me by Jake, you don't understand. I'm walking to abuse and I still might in xiety I have insomnia. I have depression, I have an injury. There are so many things. I am not like you. And I always remind myself people people ask me for advice that use that as a launch pad. Remember Josiah? Remember he had to go to the pain and the prison before he could take the palace. And God did not get did not use the palace to compensate him for the bed in his life. God actually meant all of that. Because the prison will what Joseph needed to be launched into the pillar. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 49:38

That's so good. That's really really good. Anything that you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend

Wai Jai Tam: 49:46

oral titles again, I will go with my current lead which is walking through pain and suffering by Timothy Keller. Also, while we're at it counter Pete calm But by Timothy Keller because our dreams can very easily become our idol, they can very easily become something we encounter. And we serve, we immerse ourselves into, that they can take precedence over God. And we might not even realize it. It is so insidious, but one thing can lead to another. And so I think, counterfeit God, it's a really good read, for people to discern those idols in their lives and the different forms that they take. And walking through pain and suffering. Of course, this is a good read about how we can no Mickey those trials in our lives that God keeps in his lap.

Joshua Johnson: 50:43

Those are great recommendations. Really, really good. How can people go out and get your book Dream brave? And where can people connect with you if they want to connect with you?

Wai Jai Tam: 50:55

I think you dot I am most active on my Instagram. So that's at Tom YGRTMW ai dia. I also have a website called kite dreams dot o RG that kite ki i t and dream dot o RG people can get their book, they can pre order on Amazon at the moment and the book will be released on the 30th of January, in America and worldwide. You can get it from your local bookstores, as well as on Amazon or wherever books I saw from the 30th of January aren't.

Joshua Johnson: 51:35

Great, well, I hope a lot of people get your book, I really love this conversation that you were open that even in the setbacks and the the hardships, the difficulties that you have been faced, you said yes to God, you took those small steps. And then big things started to happen. I used to say that as a basketball coach, I said if you do the little things, right, big things will happen. And so I love that, with these big dreams that we have that we just want to start small. We want to discern God's voice and you did a great job of pulling in five different ways for us to be able to discern God's voice, as we're hearing and we're seeing our circumstances we have mentors and people in our lives to be able to do that we have aligned with Scripture. And so thank you for for walking us through that. Thank you for for walking us through a place of total surrender, and faithfulness to God, even when you have spinal surgery and your knee is then messed up and your God is is giving you a deeper a deeper understanding of reliance on him. And so I love that you went from hustle into rest and that God would start to work through the rest that you have in Him. And knowing that he is faithful, He is there with us as he can actually do it. So thank you for this conversation. I really, really loved it. So I really want to say, I pray that God will move you in the direction that he wants to move you in, whether it be Tanzania, whether you get there or not that I just pray that you still have that light at your feet, that you could walk in his ways and say, I will do what you want God. So thank you for this conversation.

Wai Jai Tam: 53:23

Wow, thank you, Josh. It was so much my privilege and pleasure