Ep. 167 Irwyn Ince - Holding On to Hope: Persevering in Faith Through Suffering and Division

In this episode, Irwyn Ince and I talk about hope in the context of race, oppression, community, and lament. He inspires us to persevere in hope through difficult times. We explore the roots of hope in Christ despite past rejections, detangling oppressive actions from the gospel message, and the importance of fixing one's gaze on Jesus and enduring through suffering by looking to his example. So join us as we actively push against narratives of division by demonstrating a third way of Jesus and regularly check where we are placing our hope.

Irwyn Ince is the coordinator of Mission to North America, part of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). Formerly, he was a pastor at Grace DC Presbyterian Church. He is also the author of The Beautiful Community. In 2018, Ince was unanimously elected as the forty-sixth Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) General Assembly moderator—the first African American to hold the position.

Ince is a graduate of City College of New York, Reformed Theological Seminary, and holds a DMin from Covenant Theological Seminary. He and his wife, Kim, have been married for thirty-two years and have four children and two grandchildren.

Irwyn's Book:
Hope Ain't a Hustle

Irwyn's Recommendation:
King: A Life

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Irwyn Ince: 0:00

You're surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses, all of these faithful ones. You've got more information than then they were faithful to the end. Before Jesus came, you look back, Jesus has come. So you got this great cloud of witnesses. So here's the practical work Chapter is the practical application in chapter 12, right? Therefore, let's lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely. And let's run with endurance the race that's been set before us, right? Looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of God. And here's, here's the take home for me. When he says, Consider him who endured such hostility from sinners against himself. He says, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. It is your means of indirect JESUS IS is your means of endurance.

Joshua Johnson: 1:21

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week. And go leave a rating and review. It's easy. It only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Steve Ballmer predator, Benjamin Windell, and Justin Bailey. You can go back and listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Erwin ants. Irwin is the coordinator of mission to North America part of the Presbyterian Church in America. Formerly he was a pastor at Grace DC Pres. He is also the author of the beautiful community in 2018 and was unanimously elected as the 46th Presbyterian Church in America General Assembly moderator, the first African American to hold the position. Irwin Ensign I talk about hope in the context of race, oppression community and lament. He inspires us to persevere and hope through difficult times. We explore the roots of hope and Christ despite past rejections, detangling impressive actions from the gospel message and the importance of fixing one's gaze on Jesus enduring through suffering by looking to his example. So join us as we actively push against narratives of division by demonstrating a third way of Jesus and regularly check where we are placing our hope. Here is my conversation with Erwin ince Erwin, welcome to shifting culture. Thank you so much for joining me really excited to have you.

Irwyn Ince: 3:30

Yes. Good to be with you, Joshua. Good to be with you this morning. Thanks for the invitation.

Joshua Johnson: 3:34

Yeah, I'd love to have a little bit of an introduction to you through the lens of hope. Since we're talking about hope, today. Where have you found hope, in Jesus in your own life? And where were some of those those big moments that you needed to hold on to hope? Great

Irwyn Ince: 3:53

question. I mean, you know, there are I will start this where, where I lost hope in Jesus. First, in my younger days, when I literally forsook the faith. I was raised in a Christian home, but I, by the time I got to college, became very hostile towards the Christian faith, I was immersed at the time in what was called the afro centric movement and began to view Christian faith as an oppressive religion, the white man's religion a tool used to enslave people of African descent here in the United States and other places and, and and any sense of hope. So my hope then became in the ability for or ability of black people to to fight for what I saw as their just rights and due right to so hope you in ourselves, which is a failing venture, you know, and so and so when the Lord, I use this language when when Jesus rejected my rejection of him and want me to himself, I began to see life through the lens of His word began to see oh, there, there are expectations that I had. That actually, the story, the African American story is one that has very rich gospel roots at the center of it. That a people having a hopefulness through enslavement and oppression, segregation, and Jim Crow, those are the set, those are the shoulders I'm standing on, even, even now. And so. So that's, that's one, you know, not small thing, but major aspect of when my hope was, came alive, my faith and my hope in Christ came alive, to see Oh, ye is actually the Lord has actually brought people through immense suffering and pain. And given them a sense of His love and glory and goodness to persevere.

Joshua Johnson: 6:18

I was just listening this morning to theologian, college professor who has his students read and listen to black spirituals, while they are studying the book of Exodus of and parallels the actual of the slaves and how they started to find hope, and gods, that there is something better than what we're enslaved. And there has to be some, some good news. And and so to parallel the Exodus story, in the Old Testament, that, that God is bringing the Israelites out of slavery into new life and the promised lands and the prayer that was happening at that time. How did you start to detangle the difference between yet yes, there are horrible oppressions that Christian white Christians have done to African Americans. And but that's not the gospel. So how did you start to detangle those threads?

Irwyn Ince: 7:21

Yeah, that's, that's an important question. It's it is, it's important to recognize that the Christian faith doesn't have its in Europe have had, that the Savior of the world, in His incarnation was a pennis. Palestinian Jewish man. Yes, that matters. But not because he wasn't white matters, because the language that the scriptures uses from beginning to end, God has a plan of redemption, and the reunion of humanity in his son, that is global in its scope, that is not possession of a particular ethnic, or cultural group or racial group, that he is literally the Savior of the world. And so beginning to appreciate those aspects of my own story, how it is rooted, or how it is tied to God's global story of redemption, in particular ways so I can look at my own familial history I can, I can look at how my parents came to faith in Christ, both people of African descent, my father from the Caribbean, and mother, North Carolina, and how God in his sovereignty, how the sin of humanity, the depravity of humanity, that that is seen in people group, oppressing other people groups, that that is not enough to throw God off of his course and plan for redeeming people. So not even enslavement will stop the Lord's redemption program. Right and, and to be able to say, to separate what people the way that to more thing they'll say is the way that humanity has a propensity towards syncretistic religion, to marry our cultural preferences and proclivities with biblical a gospel truth and package them together and saying, This is what faithfulness looks like. And, and the ability to say no, no, no, no, no. The Gospel always manifests itself in cultural context that cannot not do that, right. But the ABA, the ability to see oh, how the Gospel comes in and calls out the sinful practices of a culture, all at the same time, renewing beauty, the beauty of it in the sense of, we're all image bearers so that beauty is going to come out in a cultural context, and to not make one cultural expression, the full picture of what faithfulness to Christ looks like.

Joshua Johnson: 11:16

You know, I know that there is there's been a a difference, and really the theology of the black Caribbean people and to the African American church, there is a subtle difference between the two. Have you seen that and your own family? And what did you learn from? Both? Both sides?

Irwyn Ince: 11:36

Yeah. Well, sure, there surely is a difference in this sense. Your father's from Trinidad, originally, and

Joshua Johnson: 11:47

Trinidad is an interesting place, isn't it? There are so many different cultures. I've had a few times and it's really, really an interesting place.

Irwyn Ince: 11:55

Yes. And so in the in the Trinity, I didn't context Yes, there was slavery, right. Africans were enslaved. And Indians from India were brought over as indentured servants. When Trinidad gets its independence, you actually have the reality of, of white people being the minority in the nation. So it's a different dynamic when your faith is lived out, in a context, that is not one of oppression and segregation, and Jim Crow, where there still now there are still challenges in resisting the divide between those of African descent and those of Indian descent in the church. Right. There's still that, but but that's not a case of oppressor and oppressed relationship. Whereas in the context of in the African American context, the storyline of, of injustice runs through the Civil Rights era, you know, in many ways into our current reality. So it's, it's not past it is not, you know, oh, generations ago. Right. It's still present. wrestle you. That's why you talked about the spiritual, that those spirituals burst out of an experience in a depressive experience. Right? And so yes, they are so so you don't have in the context of when I go to Trinidad, I don't recall singing spirituals in the worship. You know, it's, it's just, it's just not part of that tradition.

Joshua Johnson: 13:48

I think that's that's just an interesting dynamic has grown up and then starting to move into this the afro centric movement and trying to to talk about the oppressors, and then starting to detangle what is gospel? What is faith? And what is the, you know, the human oppressor? And it's, you know, an interesting coming from a lot of different nations, ethnic groups coming from different perspectives. And I think that's why, you know, as you said, Jesus is the hope of the whole world. And for every people group, and I, you know, it's really difficult when we're in these hard situations, were being oppressed, or there's, you know, hard things that are happening, to hold on to hope. I, I'm in Kansas City, two days ago, Superbowl parade, we had a shooting. Two juveniles are in custody that they were perpetrators, they decided to shoot some people, one person is dead. eight kids have been shot and in the hospital. It's something where, man, I think what happens is this. I mean, my wife this morning, told me, you know, I am feeling really down. And I think it started when I heard about the shooting of the parade. And so what I think happens is that when we're in these situations of saying, I want to see justice prevail, and I really want to see the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. But then we get into circumstances like okay, it is we're far from that. So you start to say, I'm afraid to engage because doesn't do anything. And I think then fear then leads to depression of saying, nothing's going to work. There is no hope in the situation. I can't get involved. How can we, in those circumstances, step into this place a faith and hope and continue to persevere? Yes.

Irwyn Ince: 16:01

Why? You've you hid the use of a key word there. Fear. We were faced with the reality, the depravity, death, on the things that are threats to our ability to hold on to hope. And this is, this is normal. This is normal for the life of faith in Christ. It is not an abnormality for us to experience, the the difficulty, the tragedy, the depravity of life in a way that threatens our ability to remain hopeful, hopeful, in the, in the promises that God has me, not hope in an abstract way. But hope for what Jesus has said will come to pass will come to pass. And so how do we do it? I think there are a couple of things to, to really hold on to. So write the letter to the Hebrews. That's that's the challenge that the congregation knows. He those who received this word of exhortation are are facing, they are suffering, they're facing persecution, for their faith in Jesus Christ, they're being tempted to drift away, they're being tempted to make compromises to the faith, they're wondering, is it worth it is following Jesus. And their, their pastor uses that language of fear. In the second chapter, when he talks about the Incarnation, he said that Jesus had to be made like us in every respect. All right. So that he said, through death, he might destroy the one who had the power of death, that is the devil, and deliver those who were subject to lifelong fear of death, who deliver those who are enslaved to the fear of death. Jesus, what Jesus came to free us from was our enslavement to fear of death. That's a very real thing. So when we talk about the things, I mean, you talk about the shooting this death, literal death. But every time we see the impact of human sinfulness, there's a reality of death involved. There is this loss of faith, that things are not the way they ought to be, that there's not the justice and righteousness in the land. And so, so the response is a two fold responses, just like what the writer to the Hebrews does, is the first thing he does, he fixes their gaze on Jesus, he is he is going to exhort them to persevere in the faith II, throughout the throughout the letter, endure, you have need of endures. But he starts soon there. He starts his word to them by saying, Look at Jesus, he, he's the radiance of the glory of God, the exact representation of his nature. He upholds the universe, by the Word of His power, he made purification for sins and sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Like, this is who your God is. So your gaze Yeah, is fixed horizontally on all of the issues. But but you have to also have a vertical gaze, and who your Lord is because he actually endured far worse than what you're enduring. Several times. He says in chapter five, that Jesus well in chapter two, right, it was fitting for God to make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. Chapter Five, Jesus learned obedience through what He suffered. Chapter 12 Consider him who endured such hostility from sinners against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. Look to Jesus, look to Jesus, look to Jesus and do that also buy your life with one another. So it's not the the holding on to hope the persevering is not just me, a rugged, individualistic, like, I believe in Jesus, I'm going to hold on to hope I would have fixed my gaze on Jesus. Is it No, no, we do it together as His people, we actually help one another. That's part of the major emphasis in validity. Right exhort one another every day, as long as it is called today, I see to it that, that you do not neglect to meet together as is the habit of some this is a, it is a horizontal communion, the holding on to hope is done in community. It's not me as an isolated, individual Christian.

Joshua Johnson: 21:00

So if you say exhorts, or encouraged, so to give somebody courage to, you know, that's what, what God is saying, over and over, you know, my lifelong verse that I had to give to my son when he was afraid to step into school was Joshua one, nine, have not commanded you be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid, you know, the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. And so that was that encouragement to me from a from the book of Joshua, to me, Joshua, and I hold on to that, like, be encouraged, have courage, how do we in community give courage to each other? When fear creeps in?

Irwyn Ince: 21:46

In this way, I'm gonna take my cues again, I can go several places willing to take my cues, from the Letter to the Hebrews, because there's so much there, around this corporate life together, this reality that we, as God's people share in a heavenly calling. We have a responsibility, God given responsibility for this exhortation as sometimes, right. Sometimes it can be the whole community that is having to endure through a fearful time and experience in context. And very often you will find, and I've, I've found this, that literally being together with other brothers and sisters, who have this shared experience, and a shared fear, find the courage in that shared experience, meaning, we know who we belong to, and we know it collectively and together and we know that there is therefore strength. When we when we stay in communion, in connection with one another. When we are crying out to the Lord, when we are praying together. When we are when we are laying our hearts bare. Before God together, let's go back to the Negro spirituals that you referenced earlier. Those who are burst out of out of a community, it's a wonderful thing. You can't attribute the, you know, author's name to a negro spiritual, his this was penned by such and such. You don't know who it who it is. It literally is a communal soul. You know, nobody knows the trouble. I see. Nobody knows my sorrow. Nobody knows the trouble. I see. Nobody knows but Jesus, that spiritual singing it together in community, it's a lament. And it's a confession. Jesus knows our sorrows. He knows our troubles. So he's our hope. And so you find this, you find that strength in community, even when the shared experiences is a harsh word. Right? That that we remind each other together, of who we are in Jesus, and who he is and and what we have in him. The power of His Spirit to endure, is it is indispensable for our ability to hold on

Joshua Johnson: 24:31

to all. Yeah, I think what you said there, lament is really important to lament together. I've lived in other countries have done done missions, I send missionaries, we tried to have incarnational ministry work and to different cities and communities in the States and all over the world. And what does that look like for somebody like me that has moved into the neighborhood? So say, I'm an outsider, how do I go as an outsider and laments with the people of that community? When tragedy strikes, and they're trying to hold on to hope? How can I not just put on false hope for for other people, but actually engage in the lament and the sorrow of the community? If I come in as an outsider, there's just

Irwyn Ince: 25:29

a need for a for a humility to enter in as a learner. In that, those contexts, I don't enter into a context like that, with even an offering of let me help, you know, I sit in the dust and weep with those who are weeping and mourn the brokenness, and, and not, you know, not try to not try to be like Job's friend who's who friends of who, right who blew it. So as they open their mouths, right, let's fix this, let me let me fix this for you. Like sometimes the reality is, we have to sit in the we have to sit in the grief, you got to sit in the grief, and not try to fix the grief, especially if I am new to a community a context, I don't know, half of what I need to know, to be I don't even know how to offer light in that. You know, it takes time to actually be welcomed in to be able to offer a word of encouragement and hope. And you know, we know this. When people are grieving and mourning, sometimes the best thing we can do is just sit and say nothing and be in grief and not be uneasy with our inability to fix anything. You know, what Pastor, friend of mine in his sermon is, I don't even remember the text he was preaching for. Never resist, you know, sometimes the most godly thing we can do with our mouths is keep it shut. I think that there's a skill, in a sense in learning how to lament well, like that. grief, pain, so it's not comfortable. We know intuitively as Christians, the hope of the gospel, we know the promises that are sure and true. We know the promises of redemption, of new life, of reconciliation, of, of renewal, of reunion of fixing, that what's broken, that there is a day coming of no more mourning, no more tears, no more pain of former things will have passed away. We know it is as sure as night follows day. And the and that awareness should give us the ability to sit in the pain without trying to have to move people to that the ability to sit in the pain and and allow that grief to be very present with people and be prayerful about how to serve other image bearers in in that situation.

Joshua Johnson: 28:32

Yeah, so if I'm an outsider, I'm a listener. I'm a learner, I sit, I can shut my mouth, then God can move. On I'm just thinking of circumstances in my own life where I've had to shut my mouth and just sit and weep with those that were were weeping and mourn with those that were morning, thinking about my context here in Kansas City. After the shooting, if we're going to lament and be sorrow, sorrowful, and walk with this together, that the city itself is not unified right now. Like there's the To be honest, though, the there is a white church and an African American church in Kansas City, you know, and it stems all the way through redlining. And there's specific neighborhoods that are segregated. And even today, after all those years, when we got rid of that, it's still like that, in a city where there is division, but we want unity. And we want to come together to to lament, how do we how do we do that? And in a place where some people know each other, but not very many people know each other. So walk into it, is there a good way to start?

Irwyn Ince: 29:59

This is an important question because what you're describing is not unusual. Me, me US context, at least, I believe the world is always going to be putting a kind of burden for gospel unity on the hearts of his people. And finding those people even if it's few in number, through relationships that we have to say, Okay, we we want to pray together. Right? Like we we want to, we want to demonstrate our unity In Christ, in response to this tragedy and our division, and we want to pray together, we want to come together and commit to that. Finding those folks, even if it's a few a number, and believing that as if we start something like that, that the Lord may be pleased to grow it, we want to quickly respond, we want to say, Okay, we got to, we got to quickly respond to this pain in this tragic, we got to demonstrate a unity, we've got to, we've got to move toward healing. But, but the division didn't happen quickly. So sometimes, it's to say, Okay, here's, we may want to make a big statement in a, in a significant response to this as God's people in this place. But that may not be the most feasible response for us to have, if it's not genuine. If it's something we're manufacturing, we say, well, how do we build over the long term? How do we build over the long term, a commitment to share to shared prayer and life as God's people in this city? For the good of our neighbors like to say, how do we do that, that that something we think, will bear fruit can bear fruit over the long term, instead of only thinking, Oh, we got to respond to this tragedy, we have to have a show. We have to put something forward to demonstrate a hopefulness to the community. So I'm not dismissing that. And it may be that that can that that can happen. But that's not the thing that makes long change over the course of time. Right? That's the response to an incident. And there will be more incidents, right?

Joshua Johnson: 32:38

Yeah. As hope for the long haul, and to persevere. So you, you did this great in your book, hope ain't a hustle. But you You went through the book of Hebrews, why? And you've been mentioning this book. Yeah. But why? Why does Hebrews itself, and the book give us a picture of hope in Jesus that has not syncretistic where we're putting hope in the, in the culture that we're from, which I think many Christians have been doing lately, where we're open to the culture and not in Jesus. And then perseveres in the faith so that we could remember the faithfulness of Christ in all that we do. Give us this overview of the book of Hebrews, why Hebrews, and what can we glean from it?

Irwyn Ince: 33:31

Hebrews is, I say that most days, is my favorite New Testament book. Sometimes it's my favorite book in the whole scriptures. There's a uniqueness to the letter to the Hebrews, that is related to the life situation of the congregation that is in a hard, hard place. And the temptation, news about syncretism presentation is to go back under the rules and regulations of the Old Covenant, to to lessen the pressure and the suffering and the persecution to make their life of faith seemingly more palatable to those who are against them. Their their pastor has to say, Listen, no, no, no, no, it's old. It's the old covenant for a reason. Right? All right, it's, it's ready to vanish away, the new is better. And so his, the trajectory in Hebrews over and over again as he comes in saying that Jesus is better. That's the, that's the first point is, he is the glorious reading is the greatest of the glory, but he's better. He's better than the angels. He's better than the prophets. He's, he's better than the priests. He's better than the kings. He's better than Moses. He's better. He's better. He's better. He's better. Right? So So why are you trying to go back under Moses, Jesus is better. So therefore because he's better. Let's look at him and, and what he did for us. Let's look at him and say, Oh, he he. He suffered, He endured he, for years. He was made like his brothers and sisters in every respect. So that he can become a A merciful and faithful High Priests in the service of God. So here's part of your means of endurance. Jesus is your high priest. That means he's making intercession for you with God the Father, chapter seven, he always lives to make intercession, he has the father's ear. So you, you, you sit your hope on him, because he is seated at the right hand and majesty on AI. He says that about six times in the letter, he's seated at the right game of thrones got seated at the right end of the match, that's where he is living, making intercession for you. So he says, We want each of you chapter six, to have the full assurance of your hope, all the way to the end. Right? the fullest short, we want you to hold on to the full assurance of your hope, all the way to the end of your lives. And he says, we have this hope, as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul. This hope is seldom, it anchors us, it anchors our very lives. It doesn't so So does it. So the storm columns and what happens to the anchor ship, it doesn't move. It doesn't go off center. Right? It stays tethered. Alright. He says this hope takes us into the inner place, the Holy of Holies, the heavenly one, where Jesus has gone as a foreigner on our behalf. And so, so Hebrews in particular, puts out this hope that is rooted in our resurrected and ascended Lord, and that has very practical application for them in their lives. So when he gets toward the end of the letter, maybe the most familiar paths, or chapters in all of the Bible, Hebrews chapter 11, the Hall of Faith, what he starts out that chapter saying, right, faith, is the assurance of the things that we hoped for, the evidence of the things we don't see. So before he lays out this hole of faith, all of these faithful ones who held on to the promises, he says, that's the assurance of our hope, the things we hoped for, the evidence of the things we don't see. And then after he does that, he says, Well look, you all in your lives, you're surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses, all of these faithful ones, you've got more information than then they were faithful to the end. Before Jesus came, you look back, Jesus has come. So you got this great card of witnesses. So here's the practical work Chapter is the practical application in chapter 12. Right? Therefore, let's lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely. And let's run with endurance the race that's been set before us, right, looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of God and here's, here's the take home for me. When he says, Consider him who endured such hostility from sinners against himself. He says, so they you may not grow weary or fainthearted it is your means of indirect JESUS IS is your means of endurance. Consider him look to him so that he's a soda y'all don't growth weary or fainthearted

Joshua Johnson: 39:37

while this is really good, there's a few things that you know on a pull on one is that God is praying to God so she which is Jesus is interceding on our behalf. And so God is praying to God like a these these her people as like Jonah in community, right? Because you're doing it with us, like we're, we're saying here, here are the things I need Jesus, intercede for me, and we're doing it and community community is is key to this faithfulness and perseverance as we're running this race, as you said earlier, so I think community is key but we have seen a lot of of major leaders fall from grace. We have seen them not be faithful until the end. And there's been a lot of you know, of man, questioning, deconstruction, whole bunch of things in the wake of people falling and not being faithful. So how do we take this letter to the Hebrews? How do we take this group community of people where they're tempted to go back into the old covenant, under the old ways to make faith more palatable? So they're not being persecuted? How do we take this and say, we can see faithfulness into the ends? We can hold on to our hope. And we can be standing and not fall? Constantly. There are some faithful people.

Irwyn Ince: 41:12

Yes, there are. Yeah. And, you know, part of it is this reality. Like the church is still here. In the scriptures, you find leaders failing. And you just read, like, just go through about, there's only there's only one who didn't fail at all. And he's the center of awfully an Oracle, right? The Lord Jesus, everybody else, even those who are able to endure even those who repented, and, and you have marks on their lives that demonstrate their sinfulness every everyone, the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Right? In David and right. You cannot you the Prophet, Jeremiah says, Lord, You deceived me. And I was deceived. Like, I don't want to go, like, like, you know, Paul calls out these false leaders to the Galatians, who's B, which to you, you are running the waste? Well, you had some people come in and preach you a false gospel. Like, there is no point in the Scriptures, the letter to the seven churches, letters to the seven churches in Revelation, Jesus is calling out false prophets, false leaders in the church. Right. And so, so for those who are doing this deconstructing, because leaders are falling down the stand, the Bible doesn't present us with any human leaders who do not have sinfulness and, and does not present us with leaders who, who fall away. That's there in the scriptures. So our expectation as God's people is not that we will somehow find perfect Christian leaders, who have no sinful ways who will never ever, ever fall. We don't necessarily have that as an expectation. But when it happens, as devastating as it is, it is not as though we are surprised that people fall because we see it in the Scriptures. And what the Scriptures do constantly is to say, set your hope on God who never lies, when he says in chapter six, right, right. So right, he says, my two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for for refuge, might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope that is set before us. Right? Is we fled to God for refuge, if it's impossible for him to Allah. So, so. So we, we, we have an honesty about the Christian faith that that says, Listen, don't we don't set our hopes on people. We set our hopes on God. resurrected Christ. Right. He's the center. He's the one who upholds the universe by the word of this power.

Joshua Johnson: 44:32

Amen. Amen. We have to recognize where we put our hope. Where are we putting our hope? Are we putting our hope and in Jesus, are we putting our help somewhere else? And that's, that's almost a daily audit. Where Where am I putting my hope? today? Yes,

Irwyn Ince: 44:51

yeah. Short daily. Yes, exactly. Right. A daily, odd because my sense of my hope can waver daily. Right. My salvation is secure. But it doesn't mean I'm always going to feel assured. Amen.

Joshua Johnson: 45:11

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So that what is giving you hope, at the moment?

Irwyn Ince: 45:16

Yeah, yeah. The things that I've talked about the, you know, it's really interesting, because we're, you know, we're dealing with some challenges in ministry right now, you know, both at our church level and in the work that I do, and in conversation with my wife that, you know, you know, denominationally I just the challenges and, and so that there that I see. And because of social media, the critiques that come of the Church of my denomination, all of that, and I keep having to remind myself that, that Jesus is the King. And that he, he has made it his purpose to do his work through jars of clay that He may be glorified. And I remember Oh, yeah, um, um, play to play to, like, you have this treasure and Joseph place and at the surpassing glory maybe is, and not ours, right. And that's what gives me hope to say Okay, today, today, you know, last version Hebrews are quote, I think, in chapter four, when he says, you know, we have, we don't have a great high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weakness, but one who has been tempted in every way as we have yet without sin. So therefore, let's draw nearer to the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in our time of need, there it is. That intentionality there is the continue the languages keep drawing near. The Lord gives you todays mercy and grace to take his mercy and grace. Yes,

Joshua Johnson: 47:17

amen. Is there a hope that you have for your readers to read hope in a hustle? That is not just to say, Hey, I'm going to take Irwin's great words, and I'm going to hold on to them, and then put my hope in Jesus, but is there like a hope that you have that they'll take a next step after reading the book? Yeah,

Irwyn Ince: 47:37

there's a particular a particular aspiration that I had, it is for people to see that we can have a far different response in our polarized culture of contents today, as God's people because of the hope that we have, in Christ that we, we are not driven and shaped and move in how we live life in this world, by the political agendas of the day, by the polarization that sets us against them. So that the step might, that I would desire for my readers to take is to say, were, in my own life, or maybe in my own life together as a congregate our life together as a congregation. Do we actually push against the narrative of polarization and division? In our community? In our, in the church? Right? And where do we? Where would God have us? Where would God have me more faithfully and fully press against this narrative of division that our culture wants to uplift? Hide it. So that's why that we will start to see that and people would take that step and say, no, no, no, no, no, I'm willing to, I'm willing to sit with people I differ with vastly. I'm willing to give people dignity and honor as image bearers, I'm willing to reflect a Christ's likeness, because my hope is sitting him not in. Not in being right, about my, you know, perspectives in positions.

Joshua Johnson: 49:42

Yeah, that's, that's really, really good. I think that if we could go in to this polarized age that we live in and be a prophetic witness, to say that I'm going to sit with with people that are different from me. And I'm going to say that there is a third way that we could point to a way that is the way of Jesus that is subversive to the culture and to the way that we go about doing things, we're going to see radical change, and it doesn't, we don't have to, like, yell at people to bring them over to our side, we actually have to show a third way, a new way away of Jesus, and that I could get my hope behind that I could get behind to say, okay, Jesus is faithful, and we're gonna hold on to that in the middle of this crazy culture that we live in. So that's good. Man, this book, hope and hustle is a book for our age and our day that we need it. We need to hold on to this and to hold on to hope. So I, I really pray that a lot of people read this, take it to heart and put it into action, be that prophetic witness in their community to do that. Or when I have a couple of questions at the end here, one, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give? If I could go? Hey, you were having a good time back then.

Irwyn Ince: 51:11

I could go back to my 21 year old self. I would, I would say a few things. I would say, Listen, you need a lot more humility, you do not know nearly as much as you think you do. You you need to you need to listen more. And stop being so bombastic with your position you. I would I would say that. And then I would say in a very real sense. It's actually going to be okay. God is who He says He is. And she will keep you so many dangers, toils and snares. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 52:05

that's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend?

Irwyn Ince: 52:09

Oh, boy. There I am. Um, I am working through at the recommendation of my son, my oldest son, Jonathan Aigues. Biography on Martin Luther King, Jr. King life. I have been working through that. And it is, it is a fabulous biography. Because there's new information that had been released from tapes and interviews. And it paints a full picture warts and all, you know, so it gives a full picture of the man it's not so you know, high and Teflon that he doesn't want to talk about his sinful tendencies and things like that, or what he was up against it really, it's probably, to this point, the best that I I've ever encountered in terms of reading something on the life of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Joshua Johnson: 53:08

Cool. That's great. Fantastic recommendation. Erwin, thank you for this conversation. And thank you for going deep right away. I get we did. Much surface revisit, we went down to the battle. And the I appreciate that you would go on that journey with me to dive deep into into laments and sorrow and hard, difficult things within our culture and cultures around the world to know that Jesus is good news for all people, all ethnicities around the world. He's the Savior of the world. And that we can hold on to hope that we can say that Jesus is faithful that we can know that there is a third way, a new way that we can live and that we can do that community. So thank you for this conversation. Fantastic. I absolutely loved it. It's been

Irwyn Ince: 53:57

my pleasure. And thank you for asking the questions.

Joshua Johnson: 54:00

You're welcome. You're welcome.