Ep. 168 Craig Detweiler - Honest Creativity in a World of Artificial Intelligence

In this episode, Craig Detweiler and I have a great conversation around creativity, faith, and storytelling. We talk about how creativity reflects the nature of God and is a godly activity, the differences between humans and AI, and the importance of recognizing humanity. We talk about perceiving inspiration through openness to God's spirit and finding quiet moments, the role of criticism and collaboration in the creative process, and embodied worship and improvisation as ways to fully engage creativity. How do you strike a balance between digital and physical experiences and value humanity over technology. So join us as we discover ways that human intelligence will always be better than artificial intelligence.

Filmmaker and author Craig Detweiler, PhD, is President of the cultural investment organization, the Wedgwood Circle, and Dean of the College of Arts and Media at Grand Canyon University. He wrote the screenplays for The Duke, the comedic road trip, Extreme Days and directed the award-winning documentary Remand, narrated by Angela Bassett. His acclaimed books include iGods: How Technology Shapes Our Spiritual and Social Lives, Selfies: Searching for the Image of God in a Digital Age, Deep Focus: Film and Theology in Dialogue and his new book about Honest Creativity in the age of A.I. Detweiler’s cultural commentary has been featured on ABC’s Nightline, CNN, Fox, NPR, and in The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. Variety honored Detweiler as their 2016 Mentor of the Year.

Craig's Book:
Honest Creativity

Craig's Recommendations:
BEEF
The Bear

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Transcript

Craig Detweiler: 0:00

All too often we're at with our phones. It's if it's the last thing we check in at night, and the first thing we check in at the in the morning, that thing is setting its agenda. It's saying, well, these are the notifications. This is what you need to attend to, in this order of importance. I'm actually encouraging us to say no, no, we don't, we can actually, honest creativity says that. No, I have enough worth and enough of myself that I can trust human intelligence, human ingenuity and human imagination. H AI will always be stronger than AI. It may not be as fast. But guess what fast may not be the greatest virtue, it may not be as efficient. Guess what, who said efficiency is the best thing.

Joshua Johnson: 0:55

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcasts app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy. It only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Elijah Davidson, Josh Larson and Mandy Smith. You could go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Craig Detweiler. Greg Detweiler is a filmmaker and author and president of the cultural investment organization, the Wedgewood circle, and Dean of the College of Arts and Media at Grand Canyon University. He wrote screenplays for the Duke the comedic roadtrip extreme days and directed the award winning documentary remained narrated by Angela Bassett. His acclaimed books include I gods, how technology shapes our spiritual and social lives, selfies searching for the image of God in the digital age, deep focus, film, and theology and dialogue and his latest book, on his creativity in the age of AI. That while there's cultural commentary has been featured on ABC, Nightline, CNN, Fox, NPR and the New York Times for it honored Detweiler as their 2016 mentor of the year, Craig and I sit down and we have a great conversation around creativity, faith, and storytelling. We talked about how creativity reflects the nature of God and as a godly activity the differences between humans and AI and the importance of recognizing humanity. We talked about perceiving inspiration through the openness to God's Spirit and finding quiet moments, the role of criticism and collaboration in the creative process, and embodied worship and improvisation as ways to fully engage creativity. How do you strike a balance between digital and physical experiences and value humanity over technology? Well join us as we discover ways that human intelligence will always be better than artificial intelligence. Here's my conversation with Craig Detweiler. Greg, welcome to the podcasts. We're really excited to have you on. Thank you for joining me.

Craig Detweiler: 3:41

Thank you, Joshua. Glad to be here.

Joshua Johnson: 3:43

Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about creativity. The difference between just receiving machine creativity for us and then creating our own things like what what do we need to do as humans to continue to create, to be honest, in our creativity, I want to start out with some of your story of who you are. And why why you're talking about creativity. Where has story and creativity started to play out in your own life?

Craig Detweiler: 4:17

Well, I've always been a story lover, whether that meant reading books, you know, in elementary school, checking out, you know, as many as I could check out from the library, what but then that moved into films, and really starting to resonate with the characters that I was seeing on screen and identifying with somebody like Humphrey Bogart and saying, I want to be cool like Humphrey Bogart. And then then that has gone into not only just writing my own books, my own movies, but then for the past 20 some years, also tried to educate the next generation. And how do I inspire? You know, young ministers, young youth leaders, aspiring filmmakers, songwriters, how do we help everybody? They kind of connect with that God given creative spark within them.

Joshua Johnson: 5:05

So how do you see the the relation between faith and, and film faith in the arts, the creative works?

Craig Detweiler: 5:14

Well, obviously, since we're, we're made in the image of God, and God was the, in a sense, the first self imager. And so I believe that it's something like as seemingly simple as a selfie can be elevated, that when we're making selfies, we're reflecting the beauty and wonder of our self image in God. And so that call to storytelling into extending our, our lives and our visions, is something that is when we're doing that I think we are reflecting the very nature of God. And it's not a secondary activity, it's actually it's actually amongst the most godly activities we can engage in.

Joshua Johnson: 5:57

Before we jump into some of this, the stuff between AI and create human creativity, I want to know, so let's let's talk about what's the difference between art and Christian art? Is there? Because it seems to be like there is a, I don't know, Christian art, for me, a lot of times is derivative of our God given like creativity, it's not the, I don't know, it doesn't seem to be elevated. And so why is it that if we try to put a Christian hat on something, it seems a little little cheesy, but if we just use our God given creativity, it actually elevates the the art, I would

Craig Detweiler: 6:49

say it's because Christian is a noun, describing a person. It is not an adjective. And it's used as a marketing term, right? But that's using it as an adjective. So I don't believe in Christian art, I believe that there are Christians who create art. And that act of going into the depths of their soul, and connecting to their higher source may create something, you know, redemptive and surprising and funny, and raw and painful, that hopefully reflects the truth about how the world works. What is good, what is beautiful, what is worthy. But no, I only believe I only believe in people who are Christians, that's the only use of the word I know. I don't know that. I don't know that other term. I don't use

Joshua Johnson: 7:51

it. Well, that's good. I think that's I think it's helpful for for us, and a lot of people like this is we need to start to engage in our full selves. And in our full creativity. You know, we're coming off of a time, you know, in 2023, there was the writer strike, there was the actor strike there is, and the big conversation was around the use of AI? And what is it going to be in the future? And for actors? Are you going to be able to use my image and likeness to create a character that is not me, but is looks like me? It sounds like me, talks like me? What is the state of AI in the arts of the moment? And what are the fears substantiated? Where are we headed?

Craig Detweiler: 8:42

I certainly stood in solidarity with all writers and actors in Hollywood as a screenwriter, myself, there are legitimate fears, that if studios, execs can find a cheaper way to generate stories, they undoubtedly will. And so it was right to strike. And it's right to be anxious, you know, graphic designers, I can see why they'd be worried. If something like mid journey can render something this quickly. And if you don't like it, it can render another version that quickly. animators who have done things, you know, sort of frame by frame or in in game design when we're dealing with world building, and then how do you build concepts? All of those? I would say those early level jobs are those early envisioning jobs, I think are legitimately threatened by the speed with which AI can scour the internet for all imaging that has gone on in tire human history and giving you something resembling what you have may have prompted. So I wrote the book on his creativity in response to that collective anxiety to try to maybe talk us a little bit down off allege, had said to have a little less fear. And to say there have always been tools that have always potentially, you know, threatened certain jobs and trades. But we've also always adjusted and said, Okay, well, what can I do with this new tool? And how might I use it more effectively and responsibly, to make my work even better, and not to ever use the tools as a crutch, but as maybe an accelerator for my own ideation, and, and creation? As

Joshua Johnson: 10:33

we're moving forward? With AI? How do we utilize it in a way where we could use it as a tool? And we don't just get a copy of the real thing?

Craig Detweiler: 10:46

Yes, well, as a as a person who generates original ideas and thinking, I'm very concerned, you know, there's kind of the three C's right now. The question of copyright, question of credit, question of compensation. You know, how do I ensure that my ideas aren't stolen? How do I ensure that the work that I'm generating isn't stealing from others, it's, it was interesting, there's an early court case that determined AI cannot own a copyright. So you may be able to generate something, but if it was generated by AI, that company doesn't really own it, and you don't really know what's generated because it's not made or owned by a person. And so in a sense, only a person can own an idea or own an image. That's, that's pretty interesting. So there's sort of the dignity of humanity is being preserved and protected right now in the court of law. And how do we do the same thing? Even in our own congregations, right? How do we, how do we lift up the sanctity of life? When it comes to to creativity and ownership of ideas?

Joshua Johnson: 12:06

What is the difference between us as humans, and machines? I just interviewed somebody who talked a lot about metaphors and difference between the metaphor of like, of trees, like your a tree, or your you know, your machine, there's a difference between humans and machines. And I think sometimes it's dangerous to think of us as machines. Because if we think that we're competing with the company, the AI and the computers, we like we can't keep up. Right? So how are we different? And why is it important for us to reclaim the different nests of humanity?

Craig Detweiler: 12:49

Yeah, it's interesting how I would say the metaphors of, of each age affect our theology, you know, so maybe in the Enlightenment age, there was this notion of God as the clockmaker who has, you know, set set the world in motion now the clock is ticking. I think now, we tend to think of ourselves as like, information processors, and like, oh, that sermon today, that was a big download, right, we start to take the language of the era and apply it to ourselves, rather than kind of reversing it the other way and say, Well, how are we different from that? Not how like a machine? Are we in our, in our processing ability? But how different are we from a machine and our processing ability? I mean, as an example, if the machines are all about speed and efficiency, then perhaps how do we lean into a spirituality or a creativity that is slow and inefficient? And that that becomes a, like a superpower is that we can contemplate things slowly, over time, is weak and can deal with emotions that are very complex that might take months or even years to unpack? So a machine can give us a quick overview of the what the five stages of grief are. But we're the only ones who actually walked through those stages as we grieve for the loss of a parent or a spouse or even a child. And so even when we think of terms of like, God's grief over the loss of his son or Jesus's Agony in the Garden, machines never experienced that. But we've experienced things like that, that are comparable to that, that allow us to open up into new metaphorical possibilities of what these spiritual analogies might be. Machines can, can, can cut a mimic human history, but they can't actually filter it through their own lived, emotional and embodied experience.

Joshua Johnson: 14:57

Have you seen any AI agenda Aided Product? And can you tell that there's less human life behind it?

Craig Detweiler: 15:08

Well, I, it's interesting I, I talk with educators a lot. And I try to encourage them to use AI in their classrooms and let the students begin to compare and critique and analyze AI generated content versus human generated content. And as those things continue to merge, and there becomes less and less of a gap, and it's gonna get trickier. In fact, even if you take early generation computers, robotics, and the kinds of answers that robots would give, versus the kind of answers that Chet GPP will spit out, it is getting more and more sophisticated, and all the time all the time, I don't think that necessarily makes it a bad thing. It it challenges us to actually come up with new metaphors, and to not just build upon the past, I think, as a pastor, right? It's like, we want to know the full depth of theological history and all the different kinds of interpretive angles and lenses that were available in Scripture. Well, now, given all that, that can be generated by AI in seconds, how do we how do we analyze that? How do we look closely at that and say, Well, here's the best metaphor, or what's the metaphor that hasn't actually been dealt with? And so it actually, I think, when something else can aggregate so quickly, it actually forces us to say, how do I go deeper, and say something that hasn't been said, and, and invite the Holy Spirit into that iterative process? And say, give me something more? What do I need to know God that hasn't been said or done.

Joshua Johnson: 16:41

So then let's go into that process. Let's go get into the creative process and, and listen to the Holy Spirit and trying to create something that maybe hasn't been said, something that could show us, you know, the depth of humanity in a new way that could reckon with our our fears, and our joy and all the incredible things that our creativity does for us that we could know that we are human is the life that we we live? How does that creativity process starts in a way that is is that the human process? That's good?

Craig Detweiler: 17:20

Well, the artist creativity, the book is divided into three sections. And then the first section really does focus on us as people. And I really do start with our fears, I do start with our highest aspirations. And I do start with our limits. And so it started with all that the mess of what we have, maybe how little that we feel like we have to bring to the process. And that that abject fear, or whether it's the blank page, right of like, I don't know what I'm gonna write, as a pastor, your reward for, you know, a great Sunday is wrath. I have to do it again next week. Right? So it's the tear of the blank page that hits us, you know, every Monday, maybe that is Monday, we like ignore it on Monday, but by Tuesday, it's like, I still need something for this next week. And I think that that neediness is actually a great starting point. Because it isn't, it isn't in our giftedness that we start, but it's in our the gap is probably what I would say. And that gap, to me is what the Spirit fills it right that there's an image in the book that one of my students at Grand Canyon University generated where there's, there's open hands, you know, where they're there. And that's, that's it, that is how I think we probably should start, you know, that sermon every time is what I would call honest reception, you know, how do I get in a space where I can honestly receive what God would have for me? And what kind of perhaps quiet? What kind of different setting do I need to create for myself? How do I need to remove myself from the crowds, all those things that Jesus, right away, we hear these examples of Jesus doing these things. When when the chaos interrupts him and the disciple says, I've got a question and I've got a need. And when there's a, there's a problem over here, almost always he's in repose. He's in retreat. And that's in kind of an active retreat, right? This is a person who says, if I if I can go grab 20 minutes right now, I think I'm going to do that, because I know how much chaos is on the other side. And so it's in to me, it's, it's in those quiet moments, and, and it's making those quiet moments for ourselves. Maybe it's turning off the radio in the car. You know, it's not listening to a podcast while we run in search of ideas. It's saying, I don't have any ideas. I'm gonna go for a run and hoping by the end of the ride, I'm gonna get an idea. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 19:56

Well, I just want to say this, I think is a very important conversation. We have the first gift of the Holy Spirit in the Bible were the gifts of artists and craftsmen to make the tabernacle to make it beautiful, and to give a wandering people in the middle of an ugly desert, a place of beauty that would capture the presence of God. And so that's what the arts does for us, it actually creates beauty that that transcends our human experience at times, or it helps us reckon with our human experience. And so I think as, as church leaders and people out in the world as mission, missionaries, mission leaders there, they're going to have to grapple with how do we express something in a way that actually points to the living God, in our day and age. And so this, I think it's important for each one of us, it's not important just for, you know, the screenwriters or the poets, or, you know, those types of people, but it's actually we're all actually creative. It's not just an information, download, we're not computers. So, you know, we talked about, about that. So we have open hands with the Holy Spirit we we walk in, but you know, I often think I don't know how to start to convey what I what I'm trying to convey, I'm at a loss for words, I'm going to last for the right medium, to, to produce something so that people can interact with it. How do we know how to start, like, where to go? Like, how do we say, Alright, here's the the first word on the page, and I can go?

Craig Detweiler: 21:49

Yes. Well, I think it's a process of both breathe, and receive. And, and so and so that that word for breath of God, right, that's, that's that Hebrew word Ruach. And that's that word that was a, you know, that's that spirit that was in Genesis one, it was the spirit at creation. It's that same Ruach that is placed in those artisans in in Exodus. And so in that process of breathing, and openness to receiving, then what I encourage in the book is perceiving. And I think that's, that's where it's sort of, like, I've slowed myself down enough that I'm open to what God has for me. And now, how do I perceive and that's where Jesus talks about eyes to see, and ears to hear. And, and, and that's, that's being absolutely wide open to the range of information that's often in front of us. It's, it's in our neighbors, it's, it's, it's in nature, it's in the news headlines, but it's, it's slowing down long enough to to perceive what's really happening. To perceive what's really needed to perceive the contemporary metaphor that's right in front of us. That's, that's what grace looks like today. You know, that's what you know, it means to turn around and and repent. That's what metanoia looks like today. Yeah, I did hear that in the news the other day. And I knew it resonated with me, but I wasn't quite sure why. Right? But when it's easy to miss it, because of the, I'll say the overstimulation, right, the fact that we have too many stories, and too many inputs coming at us, it's very hard to pick out like Val One. And yet, it's often only the one is the only one is all we need, right? We need that one example. We need that one metaphor, we need that one theme that then starts to hope everything else starts to open up around us. And then and then we trust it to great because coming from a deeper place or

Joshua Johnson: 24:10

so. So we perceive the the one thing I think that's really important because we often think there's so many things, we actually have to go after the one and then we trust like this is the one and we're gonna go after it. I think a lot is people are really concerned about how people people, other people will perceive what is being created. What what is the role of that of the audience is the do we I know I heard Rick Rubin recently say he says the audience should be considered last. I don't know what you think. But what as you're creating something and creating Arts, where is the the audience? Are we catering to people or are we trying to produce something and perceive something and tell one thing in a way that is just true to What we have just perceived?

Craig Detweiler: 25:02

Yes, well, so we've we've kind of walked through a little bit of the of what I would outline in the book, we start with our self, and our own needs our own openness, then that process is, is getting open to receiving that inspiration that, you know, what some might call the muse, right? Somebody like Rick Rubin might not define it, particularly. But most artists would say, I got this idea. They don't think it generated from within themselves, they received an idea they heard they saw an image, they caught a glimpse, they they, they have a vision. That third process is what do we do with the byproduct of this. And in some cases, it does become a product. And that product that needs to reach a market needs to reach an audience. But even that, again, still starts with needs, which just says, I'm not quite sure what to do with what I've been given. And I think even that humility from the pulpit is actually helpful for people. Like, I'm not exactly sure what this means for you. I feel like this is what God's got for me to give to you. Now, let's start unpacking that together. How does this apply? How does this connect? What can you do with this thing that I've been given to give to you, right, it's always been a bit of a divine handoff, I mean, from the first upper room, it was Jesus like, well, we're either on this day, we've got some bread, we've got some wine, I'm going to pass it out. And then I'm going to see what you do with it. And so it's always been in a sense of divine handoff, God's given me this life, this body, this blood, I'm now going to give you my body, my blood. And now I'm going to see how you hand off this, you know, this kind of sacred trust to someone else? One thing that I think artists struggle with is that fear of artists response, excuse me of audience response. And I think obviously, pastors deal with the same thing. You know, how will this message be received? Am I going to lose members? Am I going to create, you know, some dissonance in my congregation are people going to push back against me for what I've said, or sewn or communicated? I think we have to be honest about how we deal with criticism, and our fear of legitimate criticism, and our discomfort with people, perhaps challenging things that are close and close to our heart. That's a very vulnerable place to be I'm sharing my heart, and you're receiving it as information. In the book, I do. Write a lot about being open and honest to criticism, editing, and redoing stuff, trying to make it better. The

Joshua Johnson: 27:54

most quoted thing of the Bible is Do not be afraid, do not give into fear, you know, God is gonna be with us. So how do we how do we navigate our fears, and that and be open to criticism and be open to editing and all of the other fears that we have? I

Craig Detweiler: 28:10

think it's admitting that we actually probably do need additional perspective. I actually in the book, you know, discuss David's, you know, relationship to some of his friends and critics in his kingdom, that he, you know, people who were close to him, who challenged him, you know, and maybe we need a Nathan in our life, somebody who drives us crazy, but also tells us the truth, when we're a little bit off. I think a lot of a lot of pastors, churches, ministries, missionaries would have been saved, by listening carefully to some of that criticism. And so when we're blind, to that outside perspective to that outside voice, that may well be the voice of God. That's when we get into trouble. So if we can't hear and receive criticism, then we're really open to problems. So

Joshua Johnson: 29:12

sometimes that criticism will come from from the outside after we've produced something. But sometimes it will happen within the the process with collaborators and I think a lot of art is collaboration as well. And so it's the same within the body of Christ. It is all about us as the body coming together and working together. And I think you know, even in in a lot of your work, it seems like your work is all about figuring out how you can take one side and the other and bring them together. Right? And so you're looking at how do we work together and have some sort of unity how are we more alike than we are, are different and that you can translate from one one space to another So what is that work of then collaboration within the arts and bringing people together and translating for each other? Yeah.

Craig Detweiler: 30:11

I think it's how one plus one equals three. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Well, I mean, that's, that's just that's to me, that's divided math. Right? It doesn't make sense of their irregular world. But if you think about it, there are those, say, those gatherings those moments when, you know, the music leader has some vision and some word, some song that they've been given. And if that, you know, pastor is also kind of dialed in at that same moment says, Okay, I hear what I hear this musical word we're, we're being given that what is the, what's the preached word that goes with it, you know, and if you can do that, during the week, if you can get on the same page, not just be like, Well, I'm thinking this, while I'm thinking this, well, that's fine. What happens when you combine the two, now we've now we've suddenly got this much more holistic thing that's actually going to operate in the listeners on a whole different level, because they've now gotten the message one, two, or three different ways. And it's, and it's only when that holistic vision comes together, that something brand new, you know, takes off I, I just came back from the Sundance Film Festival, where we've been taking young aspiring filmmakers from Christian colleges and universities for over 20 years, we've been taking filmmakers to this gathering. And we've brought other leaders, pastoral leaders, ministry leaders, artistic leaders to that. And to conclude the week, it's like I was in the position to sort of say, well, here's some themes that we've discussed this week. But we also had a tap dancer, a holy tap dancer named Andrew Nimmer, who was with us, and I was like, okay, Andrew, what if I just list the themes, like standard way off off stage, you can't even see me, I'm listing the themes that we have the movies we've seen, I want you to tap dance them, I want you to dance them out. And so I grouped them broadly in like four different subjects. So there was time for him to kind of explore what that subject dances like. And it just gave people a completely different way of processing something intellectual, but seeing it, but seeing it extended through a body, you know, what does this look like, with my feet? What does it look like with my arms and my legs, and my and my hands. And so it was a more full bodied response to some things that were, that were felt, as well as, as, as understood.

Joshua Johnson: 32:44

As Westerners, we often are in our heads way too much. And we just think, what is this right information? And if we get the right information, we know the right way to go. But sometimes we need a more embodied experience, we need to know that, you know, God is is with us, like I can, I could sense that in a at a dance and with music with, you know, full, full orchestra. There is no the only information that I have is is notes, and, you know, movement. But I do feel that the grace and the truth that comes through those things. How do we move from the head to the heart to get a full embodied experience? I

Craig Detweiler: 33:34

think that's the beauty of that's something machines are gonna struggle to do. The robots are gonna be great at improv, though, and so a leaning into the body, leaning into the sides live performance, leaning into improv, I think is just going to be a beautiful thing. There's a discussion in the, in the, in the other's creativity, about what happens when jazz musicians improvise, and they actually have to cut off they've done analyses of their brain, they actually have to cut off like the critical portion of their brain that self critiques and self analyzes, they actually stop self critiquing. And then they cross over into this other side that says, I'm just doing this. I'm not deciding whether it's good or bad. I'm just doing it. And and so it's completely lived in the moment. I can't do it again, because I'm not even sure what it is I'm doing. Well, that's a complete act of faith. Right? Every time it's just like, Okay, well, I know what the melody is. I know what the structure is. I'm not sure now where I'm gonna go. I'm not sure how long it's gonna last. I don't even know where it's going to end. And yet, that's where somebody like John Coltrane, you know, doing something like I love supreme. Or I talked about his solo in a song called My Favorite Things from Sound of Music, a song everybody knows, but nobody's ever heard a nine minute improvised soprano saxophone version of what my favorite things are. So what does it feel like to express my favorite things? I don't know, maybe something like this. And then he just goes, right, and so that you talked about being into the breath of God into the freedom and the Ruach of God. That's an embodied experience, where we're literally trying to leave our limitations behind and making room for, I would say, Sonic exploration, but also spiritual explorations.

Joshua Johnson: 35:47

So what does that look like to improvise in our daily lives? Like, how do we how do we do that? Our read jazz artists in our daily lives?

Craig Detweiler: 35:58

Well, I would say in a sense that, you know, there's a theologian named Hans urs von Baltazar who talked about, you know, our lived life as a, as a bit of a play, where God has given us the set the stage right, the, the creator, God has set the stage, Jesus, in a sense has given us a script, here are here are ways to respond with love in a variety of settings. But then, every day, it's a new, slightly new setting and a new set of characters. And I'm not quite sure how to apply those things. And that script that I may have even memorized, now becomes an act of improv. And that's where the Spirit in it enters and says, Okay, you haven't been here before with these people with this set of ethical conundrums. What are you going to do? How are you going to play this scene, every day is a daily improv, rooted in confidence that the spirit has got us prepared for that moment. But we can still have fear, we can still have uncertainty. In fact, we should have a healthy fear of the unknown. But we should also walk with confidence that God has prepared us, Jesus has shown us and then the Holy Spirit will guide us in that moment.

Joshua Johnson: 37:22

So as you're been working with a lot of up and coming people trying to study filmmaking in the arts and walking with people, when you're looking at the young generation that has has to deal with these AI issues all the time now, and they're dealing with with machines and machine learning constantly. What what is exciting to you about this generation that? And how are you? How's their thinking, helping us move forward in a in a healthy way?

Craig Detweiler: 38:02

I think they always figure out their own self correctives. So when Instagram was sort of saying, like, Okay, you need to put yourself out there and be Insta perfect. Something like Snapchat came along and said, you know, what, what if the images don't last forever? What if you can just throw something out there and then disappears in 24 hours? Oh, that's that's much less pressure. Yeah, I can do that. And then you had another thing come along, and just say be real, I'm gonna pick the random moment when you need to be real, and throw it out there. And then that will also disappear. So in a sense, all of the pressure that maybe the platforms have placed on people to be idealized or to be perfected or airbrushed. I keep finding young people who are saying, I don't really want to do that. That doesn't sound like fun. Why, why? Why would I want to do that. And so at this point, my own 20 somethings in my own family, they would say, Dad, you're way more on social media than we are. We're not as connected to our phones. And in fact, my daughter's like, 25 has shut off her Instagram, because she was tired of looking at it and feeling that instant pressure. And so I'm like, Well, if the 25 year old can live without insulin, maybe I can too, you know. So it's it's like, it's an interesting thing where we like hand up the phone and say like, good luck kids. But then after maybe 10 years of dealing with it, they're like, This is dumb. I don't want to play that game anymore. And so you now see kids who are more interested in you know, what are you what do you call it, like folk core, you know, or they're, you know, they're interested in like, making stuff like, I'm gonna go do pottery, I'm gonna learn how to do glassblowing like they're interested in how do I manipulate the physical world? Because they've only been given a digital world. They're more interested in LPS that we threw away. My kids are like repurchase sing my albums from you know, the used record store that I sold 20 years ago, they've been waiting for them to come take it back. So there's always I think we're in this beautiful moment of people wanting physical experiences and wanting lived experiences. In a world that's only given them often digital simulacra. Instead, what

Joshua Johnson: 40:22

is the space that we're moving into? If the the young generation are saying we want to move more into the physical worlds and manipulate the physical world, you have technical achievements and advances that were unfathomable, even 20 years ago? What, Where are we moving towards? What's it gonna look like?

Craig Detweiler: 40:48

Well, I'm fascinated in a world where like, digital companions become like, the, the preferred option that people are gonna give you like, oh, look, you'll have your own AI, you know, friend that you can talk to all day. Like, the more you're all in love with it like it like a movie hurry Exactly. I think the more you see that, it's interesting how the Christian community could potentially be the last place where you could gather in person, you could get a hug, you could get a cup of soup. And you could be handed bread and wine, face to face, eye to eye, we could be one of the last groups of people who actually believe in the power of embodied experience. Because we, you know, have an incarnated God. So we believe in the Incarnation, at a time when the entire world is going for simulation. That's very interesting. And even just the idea that no, no, actually, we actually take the communion, you know, in the Anglican tradition that I'm part of, we actually take the communion to those who are shut in. That's how every service ends is with the sending out of the bread and why we're not gonna let people stay home and Whoa, we're actually gonna go knock on their door, we're going to bring Jesus to them. That's actually what we do after church. So if that's countercultural, then so be it. Let's go. Let's go. That's That sounds fun to me. I'm not opposed to the bigger louder, faster church service. Like if you want to bring all the digital bells and whistles, that's fine. And if you want an AI counselor on your website to answer questions, 24/7 I get it. That's, that's all good too. But do not think that that replaces the idea of the physical experience of healing touch, holding someone's hand and actually sharing a meal with others. Now,

Joshua Johnson: 42:49

I have some some friends that are doing church in the metaverse like their, you know, meeting with people with their digital avatars. And so there's a meeting space where some people don't have that face to face time, or they wouldn't want to have that face to face time for some reason. So it's serving some sort of a purpose. But I like the the call for us to have an embodied human experience moving forward, and it may be the place where we can we can do that for one another is is the church and that community? And hope so? How? What is your hope for honest creativity? What do you want people to get out of it, and to apply it to their lives?

Craig Detweiler: 43:36

I guess I would want people to not fear for the future, to not fear that the machines are taking over, that we are now forced to serve somebody else's Digital Agenda. All too often right with our phones, bits if it's the last thing we check in at night, and the first thing we check in at the in the morning, that thing is setting its agenda. It's saying, well, these are the notifications, this is what you need to attend to, in this order of importance. I'm actually encouraging us to say no, no, we don't we can actually honest creativity says that. No, I have enough worth and enough of myself that I can trust human intelligence, human ingenuity and human imagination. H AI will always be stronger than AI. It may not be as fast. But guess what fast may not be the greatest virtue, it may not be as efficient. Guess what, who said efficiency is the best thing that Jesus choose the most efficient way. It seemed like he was always going like the long way or the wrong way. He was always like slow and inefficient. It is ministry. So for us to want to be like faster and more efficient. And like I don't know, I don't know. Not sure that's actually how the gospel spread.

Joshua Johnson: 44:54

That's good. We I mean, we talk a lot in our ministry is the difference between efficiency and effectiveness. That's going slow and reaching through within our discipleship or you know, human interactions, actually is more effective in the long run than the efficient even just like getting up and sharing a message in front of 15,000 people. It's very efficient. But the effectiveness long term isn't going to be there. Unless, you know, you have the your, your small groups here have your one on ones that you're walking with people for the long haul. So that's good. A chai is always gonna be better than AI. That's true. Craig, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Craig Detweiler: 45:39

I would say probably say, I don't know, slow down isn't that's maybe too strong. Because it's good. It's good to have youthful enthusiasm. I would simply say you don't need to hurry. You don't need to hurry. There's plenty of time. For whatever that, that thing is that you feel like you need to get to. It may come to you faster than you pursuing it. Self. Yeah. So it's okay, young man. Just slow down, relax. There's plenty of time.

Joshua Johnson: 46:20

That's good. Usually, when we hurry, we make a lot more mistakes. You could be quick, if you go fast without hurting. So that's really good advice to not hurry. I don't think any of us need to hurry. Before we get going. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend

Craig Detweiler: 46:43

while a lot of the things I like, you know, they're hard, they're hard things to watch. You think about the shows that won Emmys this year, they were series like beef, and the bear that start with a lot of anger, a lot of profane ranting at each other, which I think is actually a fair reflection of our cultural moment. It's, it is a lot of reactive anger all day on almost every channel. But both of those shows, the longer you stick with them, the more you start to empathize with the people and you see the pain behind the anger. And you see the possibility of healing within it. But you have to put in like three or four hours of, of dealing with the pain before you're kind of like I don't know, if I like these people. And then suddenly there's a glimmer of humanity, and you go all away. Okay, maybe they're not so different than I am, oh, maybe I actually am a little bit like they are. And, and then suddenly, that empathy starts to transform into something else. In terms of solidarity and understanding, and then you suddenly you know, there's some grace notes within both of those shows where, you know, you have people breaking down in church, and listening to Amazing Grace, and you have an people discovering the powerful, right, and then you have, you know, moments of, of what kind of these chefs realize that they're capable of, and I'm not just churning out the daily beef, you know, but on the bear, I'm actually creating true art and artisan ship rooted in hospitality. And so as metaphors for how we need to love and care for people and even how we set the table for people in our in our sacred settings. I found both of them deeply inspiring.

Joshua Johnson: 48:46

Yeah. Yeah, those are great, great recommendations, I highly recommend both of them. They're really good. They are hard. You're right. They're hard watches sit through, but there is that, that Grace at the end those notes that have humanity, and artistry at the end that really, really get to you. And you know, because if you look at the Bible, there's all sorts of that in there as well. There's this difficult human emotions that are are there. So sometimes, as we we need to be uncomfortable, and to sit with the uncomfortable so can move us into a better spot. I want to know, you know, as you were just at Sundance, did you see anything there that you're really excited to get distribution come out?

Craig Detweiler: 49:35

There were several films that were just devastatingly beautiful. There's a documentary called daughters that will show up on Netflix later this year, that the logline below will sort of tell you a little bit about it. It is what happens at a daddy daughter dance in a prison, you have incarcerated fathers, what happens when their daughters come to visit them? And you I mean, you can just imagine the swirl up of emotions, right? I have not wept at a documentary ever in my life, both the moments of disappointment and, and pain, and also the healing and the joy of reunion. It's just super powerful. So that's called daughters. And that's coming out. And we are sometimes in 2024. And then there's another one called Ebola and which I think pertains a bit to what we're talking about without us creativity. It's about a gamer, who was also severely handicapped, and cracked in his body in physical life, but he was able to be very active on why why? And, and so it's about his parents essentially discovering his robust interpersonal relationships online. And so in many ways it dignifies that that that Metaverse ministry that some of those folks you're talking about, have undoubtedly experienced that it shows to those who are like, What do you mean, you have friends online, or that you've never met? What do you mean, you you know, have a crew, you know, in World of Warcraft that are, you know, your best friends that that doesn't make any sense, while this film shows you how that can be the case. And that those exchanges can be filled with real caring, and support for each other. Even if you've never been face to face. And so that's, that's evil and has also been bought by by Netflix. And so it'll be out sometime this year for everybody to see. Great.

Joshua Johnson: 51:56

Well, Craig, how could people get out get on his creativity? And then where would you like to point people to? How can they connect with you? Um,

Craig Detweiler: 52:03

yeah, honest, creativity is definitely available wherever find or less fine books are sold, whether that means Amazon or Barnes and Noble, or, you know, directly from the church Publishing Group website. I think that put it together. And, yeah, I'm on Twitter and Instagram and all those places. My daughter said, I spent too much time. Facebook is still I've heard that bed exists somewhere. So there's still I'm still on Facebook, you know, for all of the other grandparents. To join. Join me. I haven't crossed over to Tiktok yet. I just think it would just be too tragic. I need somebody like Martin Scorsese, his daughter, you know, has, has shown him how to how to be cool on Tik Tok. I need I need my daughter to take me under under her wing. But I think she doesn't have enough patience with tick tock either. So. So don't look for me on tick tock, unless you want to make a digital version of me. And then you can do whatever you want to me. And through me, I guess.

Joshua Johnson: 53:11

Well, Craig, thank you so much for this conversation as we're walked through creativity, and what does it look like to be open and receive from the Holy Spirit and then perceive what is going on in the world pick that one thing that we want to focus on to start to, to walk our creative selves out so that we can interact with the world and help others start to perceive what is going on to move to a space that is not just machine learning and generated, but a space where it is interacting with the world with one another and moving from a place of difficulty and hardship. And to a place of joy and some grace, in the midst of our pain and our sorrows. Craig, this is great, this fantastic conversation. I'm really excited to go out and be creative and start to pursue. What does it look like to build something in this world? That is not just a reflection of what I can find on chat. GPT so thank you, Greg.

Craig Detweiler: 54:15

Hey, Joshua, keep up the great work. Keep shifting culture.

Joshua Johnson: 54:19

All right. Thank you so much. Yep.