Ep. 169 Charles Martin - A Pilgrimage to Encounter the Cross

In this episode, Charles Martin and I explore the crucifixion of Jesus and its profound impact on his life and faith. Charles shares a powerful personal experience encountering the site of Jesus' scourging in Jerusalem, which gave him new insight into both God's wrath towards sin and his limitless love shown through Christ's sacrifice. We talk about struggling to comprehend the depth of Jesus' suffering and why he endured it, as well as the hope, grace and restoration available to all through faith in him. We also talk about the importance of community, narrative and remembering Jesus' cross. Join arms with us as we go on pilgrimage towards the cross.

Charles Martin is a New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of over twenty books. Charles and his wife, Christy, live in Jacksonville, Florida where you might find him bow hunting, working out, or doing Tae Kwon Do with his three boys.

Charles' Book:
It is Finished

Charles' Website:
www.charlesmartinbooks.com

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Charles Martin: 0:00

He didn't just start here on earth born to marry, he was the king on a throne seated at the right end of God, in perfect union, perfect unity with the Father surrounded by hundreds of millions of angels. And around him, the other 12 rulers are on their face having cast their crowns at his feet. And he takes a look down at us at the problem of mankind. And it's not that he realizes because he knew, but there was a time at which he said, Dad, I gotta go rescue mankind because they will never be able to make payment. And that's a wrong way to say it. Because they established this God the Father established this before the foundation of the world. So it's like A Wrinkle in Time thing. I can't even wrap my head around. But whatever the case is, there was a point in which Jesus stood up and took off his crown and laid his diet him in the corner and gave his ring back to his dad and took off his priestly and Royal Guard dressed, undressed down to a loincloth, and took a swan dive out of heaven to come here on a prisoner exchange for you and me.

Joshua Johnson: 1:16

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson, go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out. Each week, go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using and hit five stars. And actually click that write a review button and write a review of shifting culture. Thank you so much. It really helps us out. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network, tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper, or find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Brian zahnd, Josh White and Liam burns. You can go back and listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Charles Martin Charles Martin is a New York Times and USA Today best selling author of over 20 books Charles's wife Christie live in Jacksonville, Florida, where you might find him bow hunting, working out or doing Taekwondo with his three boys. This was such a great conversation with Charles. While we explore the crucifixion of Jesus and his profound impact on Charles's life and faith. Charles shares a powerful personal experience encountering the sight of Jesus's scourging in Jerusalem, which gave him new insight into both God's wrath toward sin, and his limitless love shown through Christ's sacrifice. We talked about struggling to comprehend the depth of Jesus's suffering, and why he endured it as well as the hope the grace and restoration available to all of us through faith in Him. We also talked about the importance of community narrative and remembering Jesus's cross. So join arms with us as we go on pilgrimage towards the cross. Here's my conversation with Charles Martin. Charles, welcome to shifting culture really excited to have you on thank you so much for joining me. Hey, thanks for making room appreciate it. Yeah, of course, you know, as an introduction, and to you and an introduction to relate the cross and crucifixion of Jesus and where we're headed today. I want to know where has the crucifixion where's the cross of Jesus intersected in your own life?

Charles Martin: 3:47

Let me let me back up just a just a couple of years. I was. I've been to Israel six times. I love it. I love the people. I love the country. I love the topography, geography, I really love the food. Man, you get me near some shawarma, and it is all over. And I just I just love it. But on my third trip there, we managed to get a ticket down below the Western Wall to the Herodian road which sits about 30 feet below. You know where people stand today. And without going into a lot of detail. We know it's Herodian because of the stamp the border, we know is the lowest thing you can't excavate any lower than that because if you do, you hit the rock of Mount Moriah and this particular road runs north to south along the western wall and it runs basically from pilots praetorium or the soldiers Garrison all the way down to the southwest corner of the Temple Mount and basically sort of ended or came pretty close to the steps that lead out of the high priests house. typhus, kyphosis. And we had been we've been in the Galilee and fallen steps of Jesus and we finally ended up in Jerusalem like we always do. It's pilgrimage you know, we always were always we sit as we lay And we're following Jesus, but we're always doing it with an eye to the cross. I mean, that's he's already said his face for that. So we're just following him. And you know, so everything leads to Jerusalem. And we get there. We've been through the garden, we've been through the Mount of Olives, we had stood on the southern steps, we've been the Caiaphas house. And then that evening, we gotten a ticket to go down in this excavation, that was a recent thing. They had uncovered this road. And they had uncovered what they thought was the soldiers Garrison, where Pilate interrogated Jesus and we wind down, it's about 30 feet below and you get down there in the time it was at lit very well, I mean, it today, it's very nicely presented. And it's a beautiful tour, and everybody should go do it. But at the time, it was like, you know, a light bulbs hanging hanging by wires that weren't all that, you know, anyway, we get down there, and the stones are really big and smooth, and they're wagon or wagon wheel, tracks grooves in the stone, and we get down to where they thought the Gearson was. And there's this hole in the stone, it's about 14 inches, maybe 12 inches in diameter. And what we learned from Roman record is that the soldiers would wedge a post into that hole. And they would lash the prisoner to the posts, and there they would scourge Him. And we know that they did that there. Because right next to the hole is a thing carved in the stone that's maybe two to three inches wide, and it looks like a like a small gutter. And it's a blood groove that it was meant to catch what was spilling out of the man last to the post and they it goes over to a gutter that leads out and then just about 12 feet away. If you're standing over that hole, about 12 feet away, there's a series of 12 like 1210 or 12, vertical and horizontal lines looks like a big tic tac toe board. But it's more lines. And we know from history that that is the residue of a game played by Roman soldiers called the Kings game. And there they would gamble for the belongings of the dude strapped to the post. We got down there at night. And I put all these pieces together. And I remember staring down at that hole. And I know I'm 54 I've known the Lord a long time. That does not mean I've always been obedient. I do not have the monopoly on that I am a wretched black hearted senator. But I do love the Lord. And it just struck me as I'm staring down over that thing. Like this really happened. I write stories for a living. I mean, you see these books, these are my models behind me. I've written 18 novels. So I have somewhat vivid imagination. But for some reason, the Lord did a thing in me where it took it out of this story. And I just beat and I just crushed me and I remember sort of hitting the stone and I just wanted to put my palm on the stone. I just wanted to touch it. And I began having a conversation with the Lord that sounded like, what kind of keen does this like really, because I know me and I'm not worth the rescue. And I'm not trying to play superficially humble, I'm just this that can be exchanged is not equal. And I just began asking the Lord through tears. I'm like, really why? And he I just I'm not, I'm not telling you. I heard him like you and I are hearing each other's voices right now. But it was more like an impression. And I felt like he just locked arms with me. And he said, Hey, walk with me back to my cross. And I'll show you. And so that you asked about my intersection with the cross. And that was a big one for me. And I began from there I began sort of wrestling with I wonder if I could wonder if I were if I could ever tell that story in my own way and in my own style. And so the idea for this books were a bubbled up and out of that moment. I was afraid to write in about two years. And then I sat down to write it. It took me about nine months. And in those nine months, my intersection with Him and His Cross was about a daily sort of thing. And two things happened in that time with him. And I'm praying it happens with people who read my book, not I mean, not that I'm trying to control the outcome, but it was beautiful. What he did, the first thing he did was I'd really saw that the only thing I bring to the cross, the only thing I don't bring good work so don't bring good intentions. There's nothing about me good. The only thing I bring is the sin that causes me to need it in the first place. And he allowed me to see that like you allowed Charles to see Charles really clearly. And it's not pretty. And if y'all knew my thoughts you would agree with me. And but he didn't leave me there John tells us that we get the grace and truth are poured out on the lips of Jesus. And so if we're getting truth we know it's wrapped in grace and it's not cheap grace. It's the priceless kind because it cost him everything. aiming to provide it. And so he met me every day, when I would walk back to his cross literally, with the truth of me, which I asked him for, and then I hit my face and repentance. And I still do. And he met me with this sweet grace in the same way that he does with Peter on the beach after his resurrection is like, hey, just follow me. So, I don't know, that's a sort of a roundabout answer to your question. But that's, that's all I got.

Joshua Johnson: 10:28

I love it. I love it. But so as as you're going down, you know, 30 feet below the Wailing Wall, you're, you're sitting there, you're looking at this whole, you're going by chi Ephesus house, and you know, as chi fest goes to pilot, and you know, pilots saying, you know, should we kill your king, it's basically saying, We have no king, but Caesar. And he's saying, we're going to forego the kingdom of God. And we're going to say, we have the kingdom of the world. And that's, we know what power is. And then Jesus himself goes to the cross and obliterates, you know, the kingdom of the world brings about this this kingdom of God through the Scorch, and the the ugly, gruesome crucifixion. I mean, it's a it's a torture place. I mean, it's, as you you were broken. I mean, he's, he's tortured. And on a cross for us, how do we reconcile a God that comes here and puts himself through all of that, for us? When we're living in this world, where it's all you know, what coppice was all about was power and earthly power. But as something different, how do we start to approach this cross, and this God, and this Jesus that we have, that would actually put himself through this?

Charles Martin: 12:02

One of the things I felt like he did with me in this book, and a publisher labeled it sort of like a devotional, I think that's how it's classed. You know, if you look it up on any of the sales, whatever it's, it's, you find a, I don't know, I'm not a devotional guy, and I'm not knocking them. Please note here that I just, it's never been my thing. I grew up on Oswald Chambers. But that's about all I know about it by the devotional. But as I got into it, what it felt like for me was a pilgrimage. There's this psalm, I'm gonna mess it up. But I think it's 84. And it says, Blessed is the man whose strength is in you, whose heart is set on pilgrimage. And I found that as I sort of got into this, and I was trying to understand, I was just asking simple questions like, really, Lord, why. And I felt like he took me back to what he did, he took me back to the garden, and we sort of spent some time studying the story of the garden, because in God's economy in his kingdom, he doesn't just brush off sin it, he hates it. And he's just and so for whatever reason, and I can't pretend to tell you that reason, I don't know, when we get to heaven. He'll explain it to us though, the best analogy I can come up with is, if you and I had, you know, a five year old girl, or young child and or boy, and he or she was abducted, and that person took them someplace horrible and did inexplicable, horrible things. And then several weeks later, they were caught and brought into, you know, jail, prison, whatever. And eventually, the day for the trial came. How would you feel if that person who had committed such evil walked in and said to the judge, Judge, I was just having a bad day, man, it just, it was just, you know, there was one thing led to another and he and then the judge, after hearing this story says, Look, man, I've had those kinds of days too. So look, let's just, let's just call it, let's just call it square, and don't do it again. Well, you and I would come unglued. And the reason we would come unglued is because there is a thing in us that knows and wants justice for evil. And that thing in US doesn't start with us. It starts with him. So when Adam and Eve fell and sinned, God covered their sin with the skin of an animal so that we know from the moment sin occurred, there was a covering of animal skin for that sin. It cost the animal everything, to shed its blood to rid itself of its skin and cover them. So throughout the history of the nation of Israel, we see the payment for sin against the wrath of God which is stored up. The difference though, prior to Jesus is that All of the payment for sin, the lambs sacrificed on the altar, especially the Day of Atonement only covers that sin for one year. It's a covering. And then we see Jesus who walks up at about age 30. And John, his cousin says, Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. This is a totally different thing. And so, the difference in Jesus, the shed blood of Jesus versus a sacrificial lamb, is that we don't have to go back to the cross every year. And Jesus be re crucified every year. There was one payment for sin which satisfied forever the wrath of God. Jesus made propitiation on our behalf, which just blew me away when I pressed into it. And you and you talk about the scourging will the Romans, the Romans perfected both the scourging and crucifixion because the Scourge is like a, you know, a piece of wood that's about four feet long, and this guy like four or five foot tassels, and on the end of it are these pieces of rock and stone and iron. And so when it is slung at this is not an Indiana Jones whip is is a thing that when it's slung, it wraps around the person and it embeds in the flesh. And when it is pulled off, it removes that flesh. This is why Isaiah says he became unrecognizable as a man. So by the time Jesus is forced marched out the Damascus Gate carrying his crossbar, he's been shredded, he's hamburger, he did his he doesn't even look like Jesus anymore. That's why they tap Simon until asking or telling him command him carry this for him, because he's not going to make it, then they post him up on this tree, the two greatest needs in life. So I'm told our air and water after there are needs after that, but without those life is really short. And on the cross Jesus can't get either. Because he drowns in his own lung fluid. And because he'd been beat, and as all of that flesh removed, I don't know if you've ever really been really thirsty. I mean, we've all been thirsty to some extent, but I don't know just a picture of Jesus shredded hamburger unrecognizable. Making payment that we could not pay, showed me that gee, the God the Father is really serious about his wrath. And he's not just brushed it under the rug, which also shows you the limitless love of Jesus, which we clue into a little bit in John 17, when he says, so that the love with which You have loved Me might be in then, and I in them, it's a beautiful commerce.

Joshua Johnson: 17:38

That's heartbreaking. And that is disturbing. And it's beautiful at the same time. It's, it's a paradox. You know, you're looking at the this ugly cross, but you're looking at like the most beautiful thing that's happened in human history. And

Charles Martin: 17:56

you got to ask, and one of the things I began asking is, he didn't just start here on Earth, born to marry, he was the king on a throne seated at the right end of God, in perfect union, perfect unity with the Father surrounded by hundreds of millions of angels, and around him, the other 12 rulers are on their face, having cast their crowns at his feet. And he takes a look down at us at the problem of mankind. And it's not that he realizes because he knew, but there was a time at which he said, Dad, I gotta go rescue mankind because they will never be able to make payment. And that's a wrong way to say it. Because they establish this God the Father established this before the foundation of the world. So it's like A Wrinkle in Time thing. I can't even wrap my head around. But whatever the case is, there was a point in which Jesus stood up and took off his crown and laid his diet him in the corner and gave his ring back to his dad and took off his priestly and Royal Guard dressed, undressed down to a loincloth and took a swan dive out of heaven to come here on a prisoner exchange for you and me. That started getting to me when I began trying to unwrap that.

Joshua Johnson: 19:06

Wow. Wow. And so as you're walking through the these 40 days, as you're writing, it has finished. What was one of the, one of the days that you take us through that was really impactful for you, that you you sat with and you were kind of in awe of, of Jesus while you were writing that day.

Charles Martin: 19:29

The word to tell us die, we translate as it is finished. And that is true, it's correct translation. I am told I'm not a great Hebrew and Greek scholar, but I am told that a more accurate translation is it is perfectly perfect or it is completely complete. So I began looking back into the story of one one when was when were we one was mankind in perfect unity and complete unit Well, obviously in the garden, and then, you know, granted And I am outside of scripture here. So you got to understand that I'm and I admit that in the book, but there was a point at which the angel marched Adam and Eve, who were real people with real funny bonds and real tears, and really motions, walked them out of the garden. The lock Shut up. And I think they had two emotions. One was all my what have we just done? And two, how do we get back there? Because at this point, everything changes the world is going to hell in a handbasket. They they have gone from perfection, to imperfection, from blessing to curse, from life to death, from food that never rots to maggots from no death to one son killing another and burying him. And then think about it, either Adam or Eve buried the other. So they think they went from everything perfect to this fall in place. And it has in it is the desire of the Father, to return us to that place. That's why it tells the nation of Israel and Exodus I haven't brought you to myself. And then Jesus comes on this rescue mission. And what he's trying to return us to, is perfect unity. And that's why he says, I'm the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through me the father's to the destination. But we can't get there without having satisfied the wrath of God. So Jesus said his mercy, makes payment We can't pay and offers us access both to the Father and His love for us. And somewhere early in the first. I don't know, seven days or something of this book, I sort of I just sort of had this realization that the Lord God Most High, has spent all of human history trying to bring us back to Himself. And that's a crazy, furious kind of love that I don't think we understand.

Joshua Johnson: 22:08

How does that change the way that we live in the world when we start to get a glimpse of that furious, crazy love that He has for us?

Charles Martin: 22:18

Well, sometimes when I'm talking to people like you, and you ask me questions, how should we, as there feel a little bit above my paygrade? Because you're asking me to translate what he's done in me to all of us. So let me let me let me just tell you about me. And the whoever's listening can translate it to themselves. And so I, I walk here with fear and trembling, but what he what he did with me, as I came to have a truer revelation of who he is through his word, and by the power of his Spirit, I came to see the extent to which he has gone, continues to go and will continue to go to snatch me back out of the kingdom of darkness. And when I saw the inequality of what he gets in the exchange, me for him, it just, I can't tell you the number of days I sat in my chair, which is right over here, right on a lap desk. And I would find myself weeping. Because he just it's, it's a no matter. No matter how far I have straight in my life. There is no place on planet earth that the blood of Jesus can't snatch me back. And I put this in the book I said, there's a said if you hear anything I write in this whole thing. However many pages and words that is, if you remember anything from this book, remember this there is more grace in Jesus than sin and US period. And the hit you have an enemy that wants you to not believe that. And there I've talked to the guys in prison and even folks in you know, lifers and death row, and they can't, they can't understand that God would love them. I got a crazy letter A couple months ago from a lady on death row. We all know her story was in the news. It's horrible. It's it's horrible. It's it's one of the worst things I've ever heard. And she landed there. And when we were dead in our trespasses and sins, He made us alive or he did something in her when she landed behind those bars and he made her alive and he brought a dead woman to life. And she loves Jesus. And she's like crazy repentant. And she wrote me a letter and she knows she deserves to be there. And she's, you know, she's not trying to make excuses. But she said, look, here's the thing. If Jesus Christ is not the solution to the problem of mankind, there is no such illusion is right. There's absolutely more grace and mercy in him than sin in us. And we have an enemy that is working really hard to make sure we do not believe that.

Joshua Johnson: 25:13

So as we're walking in this pilgrimage towards the cross, and we're starting to realize that there's more grace, in Jesus, there is sin and us. How do we as people, or how have you in community, had the embodied presence of Jesus in others to remind us, a let's start to shift our focus back to Jesus because the enemy is here to distract us. The enemy is here to steal, kill, and destroy. And so we I think we need each other to remind us, a Jesus is here, there's more grace there for us. Let's let's return back to him. How can we what are some steps for us to remind ourselves and community.

Charles Martin: 26:00

One things I love about letters of Paul is he kind of cut to the chase pretty quick. And if you read the letters of Paul, he, he's always starts off with the grace of Lord Jesus Christ be with you. And then he thanks God for whoever he's writing to, except one letter and the Letter to the Galatians. He skips the thanking God at all. He basically spends two chapters remenham A new orifice. And by the time you get to chapter three, he says foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you before whose eyes Jesus Christ was personally portrayed as crucified? And what we learned about the church in Galatia, is that these are these were eyewitnesses to the arrest, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. They saw it with their own eyes, they heard the man speak. And Paul is basically saying, Hey, yo, guys, have you have you forgotten? You saw this man die? You heard what he said, You saw him return? How have you what what has caused you to take your eyes just a little bit off because a little bit here is a whole lot down there. And he we learned that they they've taken their eyes off the cross. And one of the things that I love about all is polling, the poll never did. He said I desired to know nothing amongst you accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified, which think about that from it. Like all the things Jesus did. I mean, he fed 5000 He he'll the paralytic, the lime, excuse me, the lime, the blind, the lame, the Lazarus. I mean, how about Jesus Christ and hit him raise a lot. But no, because without the cross, none of that matters. And he could have said, Jesus Christ and the end that in the empty tomb, which is the singular basis for our statement of faith, but but before you get to the tomb, it walks underneath the shadow of this cross. Without the cross, there is no empty tomb, there is no payment, there's no satisfying the wrath of God. Allah by the time it gets to the end of Galatians, somewhere in the middle part of chapter six, he says, God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord and Savior. So you ask about what can we do in community and I don't know I got a I got a band of brothers I do life with it's 11. Guys, we've done life together for about 15 years. And the Lord has done beautiful things through us. He's healed us. He's delivered us. He's met us and our grief, he's joined us and our joy. He has used each of us to point out in each of us, where we're missing something. And there's scripture, Paul says, There's a scripture that says, I think, as Paul says, is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. And he's used us because of our friendship and our brotherhood and our love for one another that, that we have hearts to be able to hear each other most of the time. I'm not always meek and teachable, but I'm working on it. But he's used us it because we trust each other. And we love each other. We're able to say hard things, or at least ask questions that allow us to see maybe what we don't. And one of the things I love about doing life with them is on most nights when we get together, our prayers, and EBITDA inevitably start with real, real, gut wrenching repentance. Just wanting to be authentic with the Lord and not show up with a lie between us and Him. And so I don't know how people make it in this life or in this walk of faith without brothers or I don't know I don't know how you do that. I don't know how you don't I mean, the paralytic did not get to Jesus without four friends. So I don't know how you know, my pastor job. He talks about the format toters I don't know how you get through life without format toters. And I'm grateful that the Lord has given me some bro others who don't judge me, but that walk alongside me. And, and they'll love me and each other to you know, through all can be difficult stuff.

Joshua Johnson: 30:13

Now, I'm so glad you have that because I think some people don't and they need it. And so I think you know, my encouragement to anybody who's listening is to go seek that out. And not just wait for somebody to approach you but seek others out so that you can start to walk with them, towards Jesus towards the cross of Jesus. And you know, one of the things that you do really well, is that you write stories, you are a narrative person. And I think one thing that really helped me see Jesus in a new light was to look at the narrative of Scripture, and to look at the whole story arc, and not just, you know, knowing the the doctrine of things, but actually seeing the whole story play out. How, what's the importance of narrative and story as we approach and go on pilgrimage towards the cross of Jesus? Well, let's

Charles Martin: 31:10

first start with the danger of narrative and story because there's an admonition in the somewhere about the all the middle of Revelation, I'll forget the chapter and but there's an admonition to guys like me, who come along and try and write and tell this story. If anything, if we add anything to it, it's not it does not end well for us. So I've always started out my, my desire to try and tell the story of Jesus with Lord. Please don't let me get outside of have you helped me figure out how to use the Scripture you've given us to, to interpret the Scripture you've given us. And also think I'm pretty clear in the places where I'm trying to tell the story that I say, look, Scripture says this. But let me let me try and help you see it from this perspective. And one example would be this when Jesus says, I thirst to satisfy all scripture, which is Psalm 69. It says that there was a jar of sour wine nearby and the soldiers put a sponge on a stick and held it to his mouth. Well, you can read that. And you can think that that's somewhat of a merciful act. And I've heard that taught as a merciful thing that had mercy on Jesus. Well, if you look at their behavior, in the moments and hours prior, there's nothing merciful about the soldiers treating of Jesus, you also have to understand that the Roman army, at the time of the life of Jesus is the largest army in the history of the world. And a large army has to be fed, a Fed army has to go to the bathroom. And that can cause sanitary problems if they're not careful. So that when some Roman soldiers were conscripted or taken in or assigned, given, they were given sandals, they were given certain type of armor, they were certainly given a sword and a spear. They were also given three other things. They were given a jar of vinegar, they were given a stick, and they were given a sponge, and then they were instructed with how to clean their backsides because in the first century, vinegar is a commonly used antiseptic and astringent for most everything. So the reason the Roman army was so successful at one of the reasons and so successful and long campaigns is because they knew how to maintain a sanit sanitary army. Well, that sponge on a stick has a name, it's called a TR Storium. And we see this throughout Roman record and history. So the fact that it's sitting there not too far from the cross is not a wonder. It's like first century toilet paper. When Jesus says, I thirst in my opinion, some mocking soldier laughing, and dips his chair Storium in feces laced vinegar, and shoves it down the throat of Jesus here drink this. That's a very different look on the last few moments of Jesus life. Now, do I know 100%? Certain that that is what happened? No, but I'm pretty sure I tend to think so. Also think I'm pretty safe and that in adding that historical record to how we look at that, does it in the grand scheme of things does it matter? No, but it does give us a view of Jesus that they're still mocking Him. And and even even past that, I mean, think about it. Think about the shame he's he's also naked. All these pictures that we have or paintings that we have of Jesus. I like it's not true. He's totally naked. We know that from Scripture. It says that the the woman stood at a distance, the only woman to come close was his mother. Why did they do that? Because he's naked. They're trying to shame him. And so there is Jesus, the Son of God. He's the brightness of the Father's glory. He upholds all things by the Word of His power. He fashioned you and me from the dust. He's strong 10 trillion stars in the night sky and calls him by name, he told the ocean where to stop, he told the mountains Hi. And yet he willingly allows his very own creation. To rip him mercilessly undress him nail into a tree, and then shove feces down his throat, while he's drowning in his own lung fluid, carrying literally every sin for all mankind for all time on the weight of his shoulders. And the thing that I can't understand, and I probably won't until I get to Heaven is that he didn't call down heaven, he could have called down all those angels. He could have thrown lightning bolts with accuracy. And he didn't. And that's a crazy count of mercy that I just don't understand. I want to, and I know that he, he extended that then and he continues to extend it. Now I left to the writing of this book was Lord, I know that I don't love you. The way that I know that I don't love you in my heart in a way that I really want to in my head. And I want to. So would you please do the thing in me? That lets me walk in greater obedience, greater faith? And lets me just do that. I want to, I want to walk with you and hear you. Will you help me do that? I don't know how we got there. But that's somehow you asked me something. And I tried to answer.

Joshua Johnson: 36:39

Well, this is what I want want to say I think facing the grotesque nature of the cross is important. I think a lot of people try to sanitize the cross to make it more palatable for us to talk about, you know, every every Sunday. So what does it do to us how, why is facing the grotesque nature of the cross. So important?

Charles Martin: 37:07

Well, if we can whitewash it, it doesn't hurt as much. I mean, if we can, you know, if you can just sort of hang him up there and let him bleed out. You know, it's just a I don't know, maybe it's a mundane, Friday execution. I don't know. Here's part of the picture, though, that I just this one got to me. Jesus is in the middle. There are two thieves on either side, murderers, whatever they are. One is railing at him cussing him out. If you are you say you are save us. The guy on the other side, shakes his head and says, Dude, we are getting our just reward. We deserve this. Can't you see that this man does not. And it just blew me away that that thief on the cross is a couple feet from Jesus. And he has a bird's eye view of literally the redemption of mankind. He has a perspective that no one in history ever had. And something happens in him something, something happened where the day before, whatever crime he committed, that was his life's plan. And it ended him on this cross right next to Jesus, which has been the plan throughout the ages for him to be there. And then something happened in his heart and you hear it in his language. He says, Lord, when you come into your kingdom, we remember me. And there's a submission of his heart to the Lordship of Jesus. And we know, we know something about that Joker that cannot be said of anybody else's scripture. And that is this he right? This second is in heaven with Jesus. Now, as I unpacked this, what did he do to earn that? Or what did he do to get that? Well, he didn't join a discipleship group didn't walk out in front of the church has no church membership, he can't tell you squat about the Christology or any of Jesus or the doctrine of Scripture, and he wouldn't even know how to spell it. But he didn't, he can't, this guy can't even raise his hands in worship, because their last two have crossbar. The only thing he does is he believes that Jesus is who He says He is. And that he is returning to his kingdom. And the only way that thief has access to that kingdom is submitting wholeheartedly to His Lordship and his righteous reign. And he does that and it's a it's a it's the most beautiful picture because that gives us hope, like all of us think, well, we have this like Pharisee thing and as all of us think that we got to do something, some sort of work plus belief to really like if you really boil this down. We you know, the Scripture says, for everyone who believes Well, belief is the key that gets us access. Well, we think Well, I got to do this or I got to do that. And I look, once we fall in love with him, there should be an obedience of our heart that comes out of us and our works are obedience driven. They are not, you know, this is James, it's me, show me your faith without works. I'll show you my with it. So it's, we fall in love with him. And there's a thing in us that we want to be more like him. So we begin our lives begin looking but those things don't get us access to him. So it was a beautiful thing where I saw this thief that it just, it takes the pressure off. I'm not I'm not I'm not. I'm not selling cheap grace. I am, I am. I am, I am showing the beautiful Mercy of Jesus on the cross, bringing one more into His kingdom. And the only thing that guy did was believed that Jesus is who He says He is. And I just love it it, it did a thing in me that it really it kind of like broke some legalistic chains that I didn't know I was curi. I would have told you that I wasn't but it did. It kind of broke some chains. And I'm not you. I'm not using that as a license to not do something or a license to sin. I'm not saying that at all. It just it was just a beautiful thing where that Joker places his faith is the Hebrew word is pursue to believe in Jesus. There's a massive difference between believing in and believing that because the demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but they ain't gone in the kingdom of heaven.

Joshua Johnson: 41:31

Yeah, even to somebody like you know, Peter, who believed in Jesus denied him or out of the cross. But you mentioned, you know, the very beginning, you mentioned a little bit about the story of when he was restored back to Jesus on the beach after they they went fishing. Can you take us into that? What happens? How do how does the cross of Jesus there? And how does Jesus himself then restore Peter back to em, even when there was a denial at the cross?

Charles Martin: 42:06

Let me just say this in and this is this may not be popular with your listeners. But here's the truth of this whole story with Peter. The truth is we are all Peter, we have all denied him 10,000 times Peter only did it three times. We've all denied him a month. So let's don't, let's not try and put Peter over here that he's somehow different that he denied Jesus. Look, we're all here. Now, here's the thing about that story, or that one of the things that I think about it is on his on his on his third denial. Peter is standing around a charcoal fire. And the slave girl says are you one of His followers? And Peter says no, but you got to notice the charcoal fire because it's only mentioned twice in scripture. Jesus is resurrected. As crucified, resurrected. He says, he basically says, Hey, tell Peter, I'm gonna come fly them. And Peter doesn't feel worthy. He's wrapped in shame. He does not know at one point he was captain of the team. And then he denies Jesus and he doesn't feel worthy to do anything having to do with Jesus says, Look, see boys later, peace out, I'm going back to my old way of life. I'm going fishing, and they don't really know what to do either. And so they're just following. And you find these guys and a couple of boats on the Sea of Galilee. And Peter is stripped down to you know, his shorts or whatever efficient and they see Jesus on the beach. And that is someone's and somebody says it is the Lord. And then notice what Peter does, says he puts on his cloak. Now who when they're about to go swimming, gets dressed. He's in shame. So he's trying to cover up he gets to the beach. And you see this beautiful conversation is what is one of my favorite in all of Scripture, because it's the it is the most beautiful do over in the history of do overs. And how does Jesus start it with a charcoal fire on the beach? Peter lands on the beach, he smells that charcoal and he's like, Oh, no, really, we got to go back here. And Jesus takes him back to the very place of denial. And I've heard this talk where the somebody is taught at saying that it was a you know, sort of a pokin Peter in the chest thing like come on, man. Like why did you deny me feed my sheep? And do you love me and I don't think that's the way it went down. I think Jesus made the fire. I think he cooked the fish. I think Peter sits down he's probably got his hair over his eyes. He keys doesn't want to look at Jesus. He's ashamed that I think I think Jesus sat down next to him and in him the plate and put his arm around him. And I think he probably leaned in and said, Hey, buddy, you love me? Oh, yes, Lord, you know, I love it. Alright, then feed my sheep. Pierre eats a little bit. He says Hey, buddy, you. You love me? Or do you know that? Lovey, alright, and Feed my lambs? What last time he's probably finishing up the beat probably He probably can't even swallow it because he's got so much indigestion at this point. And Jesus says you love me. And Peter can't even respond to love. He said, Well, yes, Lord, you know that I filet o or I like you Yeah, he he's he's trying to just come down and like, you know, at least I did this right. And Jesus, I think he just pushes his forehead up against his buddy and he says, Hey, be my sheep. And then he says the two words, that Peters heart is crying out to hear. Because he doesn't feel worthy to do the thing Jesus is about to tell him to do. And Jesus looks at me, says, Peter, follow me. It's the most beautiful do over ever see the most beautiful mercy filled conversation ever. And I think at that moment, Peter probably stood up on the beach. And just like fist pump, or hug Jesus or something, because he he's now been brought back in, and he has been welcomed back and given orders to do the thing that he wants to do, but he just hasn't felt worthy because the enemies will, you know, eaten his lunch with shame. And so I love that. I love that picture. I love that conversation is it's been a big marker for me. And it's been a big marker for people that I've I don't have some great big prison ministry, but I've been in, you know, a good number. And if you tell that story in prison, you will see jacked men with a bunch of tattoos, weep in their faces off. Because the enemy tells them they're not worthy. And the truth is that they are so

Joshua Johnson: 46:23

beautiful. It's my favorite story. In Scripture, it just it I just love that Jesus at the end to swats Abba barbecue on the beach with his friends, and that he restores Peter, it's just, it's just such a beautiful story. And it gives me a greater excuse to have barbecue. So Amen. So it's good. You don't what would you? What hope do you have for your readers? Get out of it has finished? What would you hope that they get?

Charles Martin: 46:53

A look, the Lord took me on a pilgrimage with himself. And he revealed himself to me in ways that I had not known. And it was a beautiful revelation. And he did it through His Word and by the power of His Spirit. And my prayer for folks reading this is not that he reveals to them the same things he revealed to me, I'm not trying to control the outcome. Now they know how to do that. All I know how to do is lock arms with people and say, Hey, I swapped back to the cross. And you can see me or watch me hit my face and cry out. And then I just want to like pass you off to the Lord. And let him do with you whatever he wants and needs to do in you so that you might maybe remember or even know for the first time who he is. And when I was wrestling with whether or not to write this and I was probably I was probably a freshman probably afraid, thinking. I don't know if I could pull it off. I felt like the Lord said Charles Liu, just lock arms with him and bring him to me. And I'll take it from here. It was kind of it was always kind of funny. He was like, Wow, Lord, that's a good idea. So I just that's kind of been my posture just to walk with me back to the cross. So as I've met with folks, and they sign this book for folks, and as I pray for folks that are reading this, and diamond in my prayers, that the Lord will just meet it. If we had a fresh write revelation, Scripture inspired revelation of Jesus. And what would it do? Like, what would it do in us and to us and through us and for us, and I am so hungry for that. And I've met people who are and so I pray that I pray that that happens. Amen.

Joshua Johnson: 48:39

Amen. A couple quick questions. One, Charles, if he'd go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Charles Martin: 48:47

Fear is a liar. And he's a defeated liar. He has a microphone, and you can choose whether or not to listen to it. We walk by faith and not by sight. And without faith, it's impossible to please Him. So punch that joker in the teeth. And do what requires faith. Because fear ain't never known squat. Nothing, read Hebrews 11 Fear did nothing. Faith stop the mouths of lions and return the dead back to life. So I would encourage 21 year old me, man, don't give fear. Don't let it live rent free in your head ever. And it is a spirit and it does need to be called out and named and cast out and rebuked all of that by the Spirit of God.

Joshua Johnson: 49:38

And that's it. And we I mean, that's why it says do not be afraid more than anything else in Scripture and 65 times that and then one for every day. One for every day. So perfect. I love that love that anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend

Charles Martin: 49:56

No, I'm look, I'm 75% of the way through a novel, which I had To put on pause for this book to her, so I'm gonna, we just got back in and hours to couple hours ago from. So I'm going to, I'm going to rest up today get back to that I had been watching or reading anything except what I've been working on. And yeah, sorry, I got nothing for you. I would love to sound educated there. But no, we're

Joshua Johnson: 50:23

talking about your book is finished. How about how about a book that you have written, you've written at novels instead? What's one novel that stands out for you that you would you would recommend to people listening,

Charles Martin: 50:39

I wrote a trilogy called the keeper series, it starts with the water keeper than the letter keeper than the record keeper. So I would, I would go to the water keeper and start there because it it's the story of a man who constantly and in great expense to himself, leaves the safety of his community leaves the safety of the 99 to find the one who is lost. It's the rescue story. It's not majorly Christian easy, it's not going to thump you over the head with an agenda. It's fun storytelling. But it might shake some things loose. It's also pretty darn fast, fast paced, if I may have myself saved, if I may say so myself. So hold on.

Joshua Johnson: 51:25

Awesome. Awesome. That's good. How could people connect with you go out and get this book?

Charles Martin: 51:33

I have a website, Charles Martin books.com. You can find me all over social media. Yep, those two. Perfect,

Joshua Johnson: 51:42

well go out and get it has finished. Charles, this is a fantastic book, I thank you for going on pilgrimage, locking arms with me as a reader and bringing me to the cross. And it's so amazing to be able to sit there at the cross. And actually, what you did today in this conversation to, to encounter the grotesque aspect of of what Jesus did and endured on the cross for us, that the love of God would really go anywhere to find us that he would go into the depths of she'll say, find us we can't escape that love, and we can't. And the grace of Jesus is so much greater than any of the sin that we have. And so thank you for this conversation. Thank you for your book. I love walking through it. And so, as we're in this season, right now, the season of of Lent, and leading up to you to Easter, leading to Good Friday, when we're actually encountered this cross, I just pray that people would start to dive into it so that they could start to go on pilgrimage, pilgrimage, and journey towards the cross and see what Jesus will do for you. And that so Charles, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for this book. It was fantastic. Thanks

Charles Martin: 53:12

so much for having me. I appreciate you.