Ep. 170 Dan Kreiss - Engaging Emerging Generations: Becoming Justice-Oriented, Multi-Inclusive Communities of Faith

In this episode, Dan Kreiss and I have a conversation about how churches can better engage emerging generations and become more just and inclusive faith communities. Dan discusses his experience ministering in New Zealand and the US. He emphasizes the importance of understanding one's community, being intentional in serving others, and working together across denominations. We also get into insights from Dan’s research on what young people value in churches, such as authenticity, action on justice issues, and community. Join us as we figure out how to engage emerging generations and become justice oriented multi-inclusive communities of faith.

Dan Kreiss has given his career to Christian ministry with emerging generations in international and domestic contexts. He served in ministry in New Zealand for 15 years with Youth for Christ, Knox Presbyterian Church, and Hutt International Boys’ School.

When they returned to the US, Dan, his wife Cindy, and their four children settled in Bristol, Tennessee where he served as professor of Youth Ministry and Dean of the School of Missions at King University. Dan completed his Master of Divinity at Emmanuel Christian Seminary and his Doctorate in Leadership and Global Perspectives at George Fox University in 2020. A revamped and updated version of his research along is set to be released in collaboration with co-author Efrem Smith, by InterVarsity Press in February.

Dan and Efrem are passionate about the church and want to ensure that emerging generations find the church to be the example to the world of genuine community and context for spiritual nurture that God desires it to be.

Dan's Book:
Church For Everyone

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Dan Kreiss: 0:00

You know, our hope is your hope, my hope, everyone's hope is that there's going to be another great awakening. My fear is that some of that is because we wanted to make sure that these institutions don't fall and we only need some to prop them up. And that's the wrong motivation from my perspective, and the motivation and ultimately that the love of Christ can be displayed. And all will know that Jesus is Savior. That's the motivation. And so what that looks like is not necessarily the institutions that we that have done that in the past that might look different.

Joshua Johnson: 0:45

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now. And hit five stars. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included only Gulabi Jamal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones. You go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Dan Christ. Dan has given his career to Christian ministry with emerging generations in international and domestic contexts. He served in ministry in New Zealand for 15 years with Youth for Christ Knox Presbyterian Church, and HUD international boys school. When they returned to the US Dan and his wife Cindy, and their four children settled in Bristol, Tennessee, where he served as professor of youth ministry, and Dean of the School of missions at King University. Dan's book is a church for everyone, which he co wrote with FM Smith, Dan and FM are passionate about the church and want to ensure that emerging generations find the church to be the example to the world of genuine community and contexts for spiritual nurture that God desires it to be. Dan and I have a conversation about how churches can better engage merchant generations and become more just an inclusive faith communities. Dan discusses his experience ministering in New Zealand in the US. And he emphasizes the importance of understanding one's community, being intentional and serving others and working together across denominations. We also get into insights from Dan's research on what young people value in churches, such as authenticity, action on justice issues, and community. Join us as we figure out how to engage emerging generations and become justice oriented, multi inclusive communities of faith. Here's my conversation with Dan Christ. Dan, welcome to shifting culture really excited to have you on the podcast. Thanks for joining me.

Dan Kreiss: 3:22

Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Joshua Johnson: 3:25

I'd love to hear a little bit of your story of your relationship with Jesus, your your time in New Zealand going and going there, what's, what brought you to New Zealand? And why? Why do you love Jesus?

Dan Kreiss: 3:40

I guess with most of us in life, they're all kind of wrapped up together, right? You kind of your gloves for the Lord kind of leads you by says that you think how on earth did I get here and you know, you look back and you go, wow, that was completely unanticipated, unexpected, but hear where you are, and kind of grow and develop into the person that got, you know, design created us to be anything. You know, I had made these choices, and I thought about them in advance, I probably would not have ended up where I am. But because we're we allow ourselves to be led. It just opens up all sorts of doors. So I mean, a short story that I love Jesus, because the faith that my mother in particular, shared was kind of bestowed to me in such a vibrant, real, genuine way that there was never any doubt in my mind that that this relationship that she had was Christ was absolutely real. To the point that is sometimes frustrated me, you know, we we will she was a single mother, two boys, you know, and we, you know, money was tight. And he it was it was difficult for us. There were times when he lived on the east coast of Taiwan and Spain and there were times we didn't have enough heat for the house and have a little kerosene heater and the be ice on the inside of my house. My window in my bedroom, sometimes in the winter, and the car wouldn't start. She'd get frustrated and shoot. Alright, we're going inside. So we build, you know, after DOS, the more you go inside, it's our last break. And she got us together and I'm holding as impressive Alright, let's go lunch to get up and car would start I'd like you got to be kidding me. So the love that doesn't count, maybe we just need to go to a mechanic. He says, We got him again, we're going to go which again, it's just fast. Again to this day, she's in her 80s Now, still very much that kind of that, that I know this one God needs or God desires from us. Let's let's do this thing. You know, complete faith in the jury to New Zealand was kind of tied up in that, you know, I again, my own desire. I had been interested in law enforcement NACA stuff for a long time and had shadowed some police officers and went to study and thought, law enforcement, FBI, something like that. But in my community, where I grew up in Coatesville, Pennsylvania, so a little, little old steel town, that's, you know, the steel mills all shut down and all kinds of stuff, and had never experienced any, you know, I went to church and had these criminal acts up, but I went to college, and there was a kind of play guitar sort of, and I play guitar for university one time and these people come say, hey, we need you. I was like, What do you mean, you need me to this thing called young life. So I got involved in young life, just playing guitar and it just kind of opened up doors, I realized, you know, I had a passion for and I was still a young person myself, but just kind of thought maybe God is calling me to be a fence at the top of the cliff, rather than the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, you know, kind of picking up the scraps that's kind of prevent people from getting to the point where they need law enforcement. So I transferred I went to Eastern University, which definitely Robbins Tony Campbell, all those guys and, and again, continue to grow in my understanding of who God was. And it was a great it was a great time and a great place to kind of nurture that faith and again, with mentor was like, like Duffy Robbins and, and others it was fantastic. Got fully involved in young us there. Hetrick was the area director at again, a real man of God and discipling. And then kind of I guess, Tony was at that time can follow is that time speaking all over the world. And he I guess he had some kind of speaking engagement, Australia, New Zealand, something like that, and people and Youth for Christ in New Zealand, heard him and thought, we need some help. And Tony said, Well, we we got to use ministry degree, you know, school, so calm. So these Kiwis came and I honestly went to this to just talk to these guys because I wanted to hear Kiwi accent. That was my motivation. But they said, Dan, we we think you're a fit. And we'd like you to come come for a year and see what happens. And so I graduated and left a few days later to go to New Zealand. Again, this is an old, so this is this is late 80s. So I left Reagan was still president, there's no internet, or no cellphones, a phone call back home to my now wife with my girlfriend a year behind me or my mother was $3.70 a minute. And I'm on you know, amongst support. I released support for this. So there weren't a lot of phone calls. And that was terrible letter writing. It was it was tough. Yeah. So and I went for a year worth 3d For Christ's lived in old for at risk boys for a long time. I had been again, I was suburbanite. So you know, mostly middle class, youth ministry kind of experience. But this was something totally different was a new culture and then new cultures, and living in an over at risk, you know, street kids and that kind of stuff. And that just opened my eyes. And you know, so the year finished, I went, I came home to the United States and convinced my wife, well, let's get married, and let's go back for another year. She's like, Oh, that sounds fun. And we lived there together for 17 years. And just our children are born there. It was just a fantastic experience. And again, I was a pretty typical middle class kid in the United States. And, you know, I love the US. But living overseas for that length of time, certainly transformed my thinking and my understanding both of my faith and my own culture and all that kind of stuff. And I'm not saying that my faith was a culturally conceived faith because it was genuine but certainly over there. It was different. And it kind of made me kind of connect to my faith in a different way than than I had in the United States just observing things differently and then and experiencing things differently and and connecting with other people who had a faith that was also genuine but very different than my own because their life their experience, their worldview is completely different. And it just it just continued to mold and shape me unless there was in these were in exam for 17 years and then got a call to teach to run direct to a Duffy Robbins did and eat Started at King University, which is a small Presbyterian school in Bristol, Tennessee. And so as I was training others to be pastors, and did that for about 15 years in Bristol, and so all those experiences, kind of led to, you know, me thinking and writing and, and studying about emerging generations and just I have a passion for young people in particular, those and emerging generations in their connection, not just to the physical tradition of church, but to a genuine relationship with Jesus. And so, understanding that, as are in the United States, our culture shifts, there are some things that potentially the church can and maybe should be doing to help young people make stronger, better connections, and so that it's a lifelong kind of thing,

Joshua Johnson: 10:52

some of the stuff that you wrote about, and that, in this new book, a church for everyone is based on some of your research that you did for your PhD. Right? And how did you connect with frm? To start to write this book? And what is your goal? What was your goal? Setting out?

Dan Kreiss: 11:11

So again, initially, the book started out as dissertation. But it's, it's, which will make it seem like the book is academic. It's one I'm not a great academic. So it's not academic, a relatively easy read. But it was basically again, me trying to my passion, alas, Vol. Two was connecting emerging generations to the church in a real and by the way, we keep hearing this in the ethos, this idea of the nuns and this growing group of nuns like, you know, 20% 30% of the merging generations are nuns. They're not wearing a habit and not Catholic this mean to NLN EDS, right there that have no, no identified faith. Oh, certainly not a traditional faith. And so as I'm hearing this, I'm kind of asking questions and wondering. And so it began to, that was what my research was based on and some of that research. Again, this is just an academic exercise at the time, I interviewed a whole bunch of people who are doing ministry, and one of those people that I interviewed was F, and then completed that it's not good. That was hard work. And I've done it, let's move on to the next thing. And my editor, who was a friend of mine, and then my dissertation supervisor was like this, this Mo, people need to read this on just us. And I'm sorry, really, that seems like work. And I'm really done. You know, I finished my M div, and then went straight into my, like, demand. And so it was like six years, I haven't seen my kids, six years, what are you thinking? So but we've kind of floated it out there. And somebody decided they wanted to pick it up. But they just thought, Dan, this is a really strong book, it'll be even stronger if we put another voice in. And so they, they reached out the extra amo board. And so the two of us collaborated, then some of the information and content of the book comes from his writing and his season, Sacramento, so he's got in a very different context than I am. And then some is mine. So together, it just makes for a broader understanding. So his is his input is a lot of thinking about justice oriented kind of issues. And that's something that emerging generations are very passionate about. And so they're wanting to see, you know, is the church doing what it what it espouses to do as it it making a difference in the communities and making a difference in the lives of people. So that was kind of his area and my areas, again, particularly young people, but also I was at the time, I decided in East Tennessee, Bristol, Tennessee. So I am in a county that is 96%. Caucasian. So when we think of diversity, that, like ethnic diversity was almost an impossibility. You know, the, the campus that I was on was much more diverse than the rest of the county. But the church that I worshiped in, was not very diverse, because it couldn't be unless we sabotaged the one or two local African American churches, then you guys came operating more so that we can be ethnically diverse, that was never going to work. But again, as I've talked to students, and as I continue to read and research, I realized that that there was a whole lot. There were a lot of people that I didn't know our surrounding area of our congregation that were diverse in other ways other than just ethnic ethnicity. And they also weren't connecting to our church. And what were those things that were different? And what are the things that you know, that unintentional walls or barriers that our individual congregations put up that says, These are the people that belong here and you don't? And so that's kind of the question that we began to wrestle with and ask and and so hopefully, we address some of that in this book church for

Joshua Johnson: 14:48

everyone. So then what are some of those barriers that basically wall up other outsiders and say you don't belong? We only only these times. So people belong in this church, what are these barriers?

Dan Kreiss: 15:04

But so you're likely you probably have heard 1963 Martin Luther King says, you know, 11 o'clock on a Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in the United States. And so he's obviously they are specifically talking about racial segregation. And we know, MLK and and what he stood for and what the arguments were at that time. Well, you move on from there, and you think, this generation, so the ones that are born from 2000, on in the United States, and actually in other parts of the Western world are going to be the most diverse generation ever. You know, they're saying by 2035, if somewhere between 2035 and 50, cases are no longer going to be a majority, they're going to be the largest minority. Right? And so that we get we grow increasingly diverse. But for emerging generations, diversity, whether it's ethnic diversity, whether it's educational diversity, whether it's social standing on stuff, every other aspect of their lives, in school, in their sports, in their other activities, or music programs, when they go to college or university, you want to go to a job, all those things, because that's the generation there. That's a much more diverse generation. That's everywhere. And then on Sunday morning, you're looking to go, why? Why is this context so different than every other aspect of my life? And so, unintentionally, I think that the church is communicating something to them that I don't think the church desires to communicate, and that is, this is an exclusive area. And I don't think that's what any of us intended, and are certainly not what I believe that God intends for the church. And so that's gonna, that's the diversity that we see. And so they're, they're much more fluid in that, then we are and much more comfortable in that aspect. And that way, if the

Joshua Johnson: 16:58

church is communicating that this is an exclusive thing, and not inclusive, what are some steps that the church desires to be more inclusive, that they want to see that they know that A, the gospel is for all nations, it's for everyone, we want to be inclusive, and be oriented towards that, what are some steps that churches can do to start to move that direction? The

Dan Kreiss: 17:26

steps for FM and His Church in Sacramento, and the steps for me in my little church in Bristol, Tennessee are not going to be the same? Because it's a completely different context. Right. And so, rather than kind of formulaic, and say, Alright, any church that wants to be diverse, here are the things that we do. Essentially, we begin by asking some questions like, Okay, this is our neighborhood, who lives in our neighborhoods, draw a circle on a map of a mile, a mile and a half and said, who was here? And how can we serve them. So it's not necessarily about us, and making sure that people have every, you know, in our neighborhood, dark in our door and are here for worship, but actually, that feel that the church is a vital part of their lives, even if worship is not something they participate in. Because we are getting getting we communicate the love of Jesus in a whole lot of different ways. So I'm here now, and in Roswell, Georgia, what, again, is much more diverse than Bristol, Tennessee, but the church that I've been called to is not particularly diverse, at least not ethnically. And there's a whole lot of reasons for that. I mean, there are some very strong, vibrant churches for you know, we there's a Hispanic congregation that meets in our building at the same time, and, you know, there's a language barrier for them to come to worship with us. So that's a challenge. There are some very strong African American churches within, you know, walking distance of here. And their worship style is completely different, and that's fine. But what our desire is that anyone that drives past this church sees this as a vital component in the community, like those people, they open that, you know, this, this facility is open for, we have, you know, basketball programs that are here regularly, that have not affiliated with a church, but people are here to use facility in their blocks of nonprofits that use it for educational purposes, or all that kind of stuff on a regular basis, so that there's opportunity for people not only Jesus, the facilities, but for our congregants, the people who worship here to serve and mix and mingle and again, be the hands and feet of Christ in that context. And so it starts with questions like, Who are we? Who lives in our neighborhood, and what are their needs and how can we serve them? A guy named Darrell garden is a friend of mine in New Zealand, and he's an Anglican priest, and he's an Anglican priest in the Catholic coast in the US Beyond. And he talks about, he is the priest of a parish. And that's the idea that we're trying to get back to you in terms of a church, a parish is, you know, that I am the priests of this parish, even if these people don't, don't worship here, or even if they don't even have a faith, they see me as a spiritual leader in some sense. So when it comes time to wedding, you know, to promote a wedding or do a service together. I do premarital counseling with them and and talk about the faith aspect and how important that is in a marriage, you know, when it's when it's there's grief, sickness, or sadness. And so he says, I've served this entire community in a whole lot of ways. And so and he's trying to empower the people in the congregation to see it in the same way. And so that's where that that stems from that our congregations are, you know, it's a parish, that we serve these people. And so a way to kind of influence and share the level of Christ in our neighborhood.

Joshua Johnson: 21:02

So then what does it look like if we have a parish mentality that there are people that we're serving in our neighborhood, and this mile half radius of our church? And if there are other congregations around there, what does it look like to start to hold hands and together and say, we're going to work on this together as the Body of Christ, and not just my individual, brick church, and your individual brick church?

Dan Kreiss: 21:32

What so think about if we're able to do that, what that communicates, you know, and how powerful that communicates. So again, we see, we hear in the political arena, the United States, you know, this, these guys, and those guys, and they are just at odds with one another. And so, again, the none, particularly, possibly others who don't have a strong church affiliation, drive up our street, we, you know, as a Presbyterian Church, you're right across the street Baptist Church, and then right across the street, the other way is Methodist Church, and they go, well, but what's wrong with those people? They don't understand. Right? They don't know like, why there's so many different churches that will they don't The thinking is, potentially they all like each other, they don't work together. Again, we want to eliminate that as much as possible. And, you know, you and I, who are connected to the church realize that's that may be, honestly, sometimes that's how it started. That's how we have some kind of some denominations for sure. And that's why in some towns, there is a Baptist church on every corner because they kept splitting, right? They're all the same Baptists, I guess, but they didn't get along with others. So there's some truth in that. But again, I don't think that's something we would want to communicate. So how can we join together? What are what are the ways that we're not being cared for, and ultimately concerned about maintaining our buildings or our style, or all those kinds of things and saying, This is a community that God has placed us in this is where we worship? How can we join together, so let's hold hands. And so that means that the leadership in those churches needs to be intentional about that, you know, meeting together gathering together, it means that that however, a church is structured, the eldership needs to be on board with that, and, and work to make that happen. And again, it's something that's got to be intentional, because, you know, I work and it's pretty hard work to try and have relationships with my neighboring churches, and it's, you know, because this word, this, this congregation is all consuming, right? You just, there's so much happening all the time, there's no time for all that. But we know, wait a minute, you know, there's no time for not doing that. Ultimately, again, if we're trying to share the love of Christ and, and communicate to the wider community that, hey, we are all in this together, and you can, you know, a few worship key or your worship across the street or whatever, however you find faith, we want to encourage that. And so it's gonna, I like to think of it as kind of more of a kingdom mentality than a denominational or, or even, you know, even non denominational churches still have a territorial kind of bent, offering. So we're just saying this into the kingdom and Palace, the kingdom of God. And the kingdom of God is very diverse, and God accepts to worship in all sorts of ways. It's tough, but again, as we think about emerging leaders, Christian leaders, and that kind of stuff, helping them develop that mentality. And so, you know, the next generation is not very denominational. They don't care about that a lot. So they don't wake up and go, Oh, I'm a Presbyterian or I'm a Baptist, or I'm out there, like, I have a faith. I'm going to find a community that helps me nurture that faith, whatever that looks like.

Joshua Johnson: 24:44

So as you're researching the beliefs of young people and what they're passionate about what they're what they want, in a church and a faith community. What are some of the things that they're looking for? or that would stand out in a faith community, we

Dan Kreiss: 25:04

need to discuss these things. But it's also risky to say, here are the things right because one, every person is an individual and every person is different. Every area in the country is slightly different culturally, and, and all that kind of stuff. And so there's some different things, but there are some generality. So they desire an openness and a genuineness. Something that's that's real, that's tangible. So when, you know when messages are communicated, that it's not just intellectual, it's like I, you know, here's the theology or the intellect or the faith aspect behind it. Now, what does it do? You know, they tend to be people who gravitate towards action. You know, Tony Campo called that the Praxis principle, you know, put it into practice, and the faith comes behind it, you know, as we work it out. So that's, that's one aspect. I think another aspect have been very concerned about this word. And that's, it's a, it's a difficult word, currently, in the last three, four or five years, but justice, you know, that they have a specific idea about what justice is. And that's not necessarily always accurate. But again, seeing a community where people are, are focused on that and desire to kind of work out tangibly justice issues. So you know, what that has to do with the for some of them, it's, it's ecological, you know, or they're worried about, about the planet and how we care for the planet. And what we do that for others, it's, it's justice issues surrounding race, or gender, or all those kinds of things. And some of its more fluid than that. But those kinds of things are pretty again, important to them. They, they don't desire again, gender is a generalization, but they, most of them gravitate away or move away from a congregation that seems to be attached on a Sunday morning. And then I, the rest of my life is disconnected, you know, I'm stuck, you know, that habitual kind of worship and doing the things and dressing up, or however we do it, and then it has no tangible connection to any other aspect in my life. I know that there's so many different from when you and I were younger, you know, I then churches always been like that. But I guess for a long time there was enough, particularly in the United States, there was just enough cultural connection and cultural need to be part of a church that would many people just kept it that this generation was saying, I'm not going to keep it up just just for the sake of looking the part.

Joshua Johnson: 27:49

I mean, you're looking at 30% or so that are nuns that have no religious affiliation, that the emerging generations are coming in, and there probably isn't going to there won't be enough people in those generations then to keep up what we have been doing in the church. So the church is going to start so radically look different than it had in the past, because we don't have that. And what ways can we started to reorient the church in ways that faith will be thriving, institutions may not, but faith in Jesus, and the body of Christ can thrive in different ways, in areas and places. This

Dan Kreiss: 28:33

is going to be very difficult. It's gonna be a tough transition, particularly again, in the United States, most of the rest of the Western world has already experienced this, I got I lived in New Zealand for for 15 years 4% 4% of the population, consider themselves Christian, you know, and attend church regularly. You know, Australians are saying England's the same, it's going to be tumultuous, and and difficult, and it's going to potentially feel like God has abandoned us or, you know, faith is gone, and there's no people left. But how one of the people that interviewed for this, your name is Mackenzie Neil, he was planting a church in the Tri Cities. That was for basically emerging generations, you know, the inner city folks who, again, felt this affected from the church, and yet this church was vibrant and growing. And she said that some of that is what she called a winnowing. And that actually, the pandemic was a was a kind of a windowing. And we've seen that, right? We know that that's, you know, all the people who were like, Oh, we did this all the time, and we we just don't anymore. But the ones that have remained are the ones for whom faith was vital. And so that means that yes, some of our churches and institutions will will end up closing but hopefully prayerfully the ones that remain open or more vibrant, having that kingdom mentality and saying, I continue to worship, you know, and God is still God, God still holds all this together. And, you know, ultimately, when we think about making some changes and making some tough decisions, and you know, if it means kind of blending some separate small congregations to be more vital and active in the community, then what does God find faithfulness? And how can I express myself fully in my worship, and it might not look like what we did, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, and it might mean, you know, my tradition, it might be, okay, if we want to engage next generation, we might have to get rid of some of the bells and smells, because they don't, that doesn't, you know, all that kind of stuff might not work so that I don't know. So we just kind of, again, be open to that, continue to ask them, continuing to share with them the traditions that that really matter to us, and why they matter to us that we've kind of winnowed out and saying, This is why these are important. And even if you don't, as a young person don't really understand or engage with this is why it's vital, you know, then, hopefully, they, they capture it and understand it. And it's vital for their fate and development as well.

Joshua Johnson: 31:16

So what as you were interviewing Mackenzie, the Tri Cities in her church was for the emergent generation, and it was thriving, what were some of the things that she was doing that was making it thriving,

Dan Kreiss: 31:30

they were very intentional about recognizing who was in the community, and then trying to serve that and making it a safe space. There was a family there who had children on the autistic spectrum. And so that was, you know, the worship is a difficult place for for families like that, right, there's a whole lot going on, particularly, you know, under the contemporary service, we got drums going on. So there's a lot of noise, and there's kind of movement and all that kind of stuff. So they actually recognize that talk to the families. And then they dedicated like, what they call STEM area, like a hands on tactile kind of area with some carpet and some things and some earphones, and I have to say, it's fine. If this is where you need to be or where you need kids, we welcome you in this space. Same with with children, you know, and we know that children can be disruptive at times, right, and you're in the middle of a, you know, a deep point in a sermon, and they're a baby whales or something like that. And you're like, Oh, I just lost the moment. So kind of recognizing, that's part of reality, but making space for them. You know, there's many other churches there, rather than they've given up on the JR Church idea where you know, you'd have to come for the children's rested, and then they're out so that we can kind of do the grown up stuff. Many churches have said, well, we're gonna gather together and we're gonna gather them in the back of our sanctuary or back of our place, so that they're still here and engaged and hear it. And we'll keep them engaged in different ways. So the parents can be free to worship, those kinds of things. They and Mackenzie church again, the way that they prayed for one another, was was intentional, the way that she structured the service was intentional, that types of music, how we did music, that it wasn't just wasn't just a passive event that somebody showed up to watch this, I sing a couple songs, that's my only involvement. And then I leave again, but there was interaction, and all that good stuff, all of it, again, as much as possible to be engaged in developing communities. And then outside of Sunday morning worship, then how they gathered together and other ways to serve. To read Scripture to to care for one another, when they were needs, all that kind of stuff was very intentional. It was a small, it's not a huge congregation, obviously, the bigger you get, the more tantalizing Nick gets. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 33:59

if you get big lead, yeah, we could have some of them over here and one side doing it and gathering together and some of them over here. It's, it's alright, we could figure it out. How we could continue to be intentional move out towards our community. You talk a lot. In your book, you talk about justice oriented, multi inclusive churches. What for you? What does that mean for us? And how can we start to get to be justice oriented, multi inclusive,

Dan Kreiss: 34:26

that idea of multi inclusive, that this kind of a word that we coined, ultimately recognizing that, you know, FM's church and my church in terms of multi ethnic were very different. But what were some other ways that we were needed to be inclusive and again, thinking about educational academic levels, socio economic level, gender, all that kind of stuff. How are we kind of including or excluding people and what does what is God's desire for the kingdom of God? Um, so again, in our reading Particularly I look at the Old Testament, think, here's the Old Testament that Israel allied saw themselves as God's chosen people, right? That's an exclusive OR, and yet consistently through the Old Testament, our messages of inclusion, all the time it bright, right all it back to, to the 10 commandments, you know the 10 commandments that you will keep the Sabbath that's in there as a as an inclusive thing because it says, You will keep the Sabbath and that there's rules about, you're not allowed to have your servants work in your honor, you know, they need a day of rest as well, even though they're not part of your community, we want to care for them, and they need to experience justice as well. And so that's where we begin to realize that again, that's just obviously moves to add it to the New Testament, and where becomes even more clear and powerful, and so that justice in the multi inclusiveness are kind of intertwined, and blend together. So

Joshua Johnson: 35:56

a lot of people in the West are experiencing the decline of church, the institutional church is declining. You're, you're working with emerging generations, young people, where they have less religious affiliation than before, what is given you hope, and the emerging generations, what do you see in them that will carry the flame of Christ into the world,

Dan Kreiss: 36:26

those generations just have so much, I have so much energy, and enthusiasm and, and they they do have a desire to make the world a better place, to be honest, you have integrity, to to share all these principles of faith, right? All these principle that that Christ taught. And so what the disconnection comes when they don't see the church as offering those things, when I have hope, because I think ultimately, the church does that as, as the manifestation of the work of Christ, I think the church is the best hope for the world. And so as we kind of help them, experience those things, and recognize so as we become as, as churches, as individuals, as a faith community, more inclusive, more intentional, more active, and dynamic, and expressions of our faith. I think they're on board, and they're excited about it, I don't know, you know, our hope is your hope, my hope, everyone's hope is that there's going to be another great awakening, my fear is that some of that is because we wanted to make sure that these institutions don't fall and we only need some to prop them up. And that's their own motivation, from my perspective, and the motivation, and ultimately, that the love of Christ can be displayed. And all will know that Jesus is Savior. That's the motivation. And so what that looks like, is not necessarily the institutions that we that have done that in the past with Matt, look, good friend, care pal, in their book growing young talk about giving the keys to some of these, these decisions to the next generation. You know, and so some of that is like, you know, here we are, we're the older adults who this has been our experience, but we want to, we want you to have faith, we will work with you work with you guide you as much as possible, but we are you are now leading us. How do you reach your own generation that I think that's, you know, that's on I have hope, because that, you know, in this, this congregation, this community, I see it happening, that there are some and emerging generations. And again, it's not just teenagers, right? It's those 40 and under there that are that are excited and passionate and faithful and, and wanting to see the love of God displayed and shared his lips Foxwell and that's fantastic. And yet, they're doing it in a way that is more inclusive than they are willing to cross the street in a way that we haven't before. And I get that because they're not. They're not hindered by this denominationalism or all that kind of stuff. They're just like, hey, we're because that's been their experience and other ways. We're together in this, you have a faith and I have a faith. You know, in our, in our culture in the West, United States in particular, there's that long time of falsehoods versus Protestantism. Right. And, you know, you know, when I wasn't allowed then but when Kennedy was, was elected, you know, that was a huge deal. And we put a Catholic and as, as president that's That's craziness. Right? But that's for this generation. Again, it's you have a vibrant face if you practice it in the Anglican Church or the Catholic Church or the non diluted nondenominational church or whatever. That's irrelevant. The bottom line is where the connections that we have and we have a vibrant face, however you express that is fine, but you These are the areas that we want to serve together and are open to that. And this is exciting to see.

Joshua Johnson: 40:04

Oh, what's the one one thing that you would love your readers to get out of your book?

Dan Kreiss: 40:08

Yes, the one again, I want them to be encouraged. The this is not again, it's not formulaic. It's not a book that says, Hey, these are the steps to do what you do. I one thing I love them to get out is to, to read it and feel like, well, this is what is happening in our neighborhood. And how can we be multi inclusive? In our neighborhood? Who are the people that we are not barren or anything like that we're not serving them, the adults feel a part of things. What are some, you know, asking some hard questions? What what are some things that we are doing, intentionally or unintentionally, that are putting up barriers that maybe we need to not do anymore? And again, that's, that's a long process. And it's, it'd be difficult discussion sometimes. But again, if we're, if we're open to that, I think we've become more true reflections of, of the church that that God ordained and God desires. And I'm excited, I hope. And at first, we were, who put it together. And we wrote this together in the hopes that it will move the needle summon and will again, make us more as Christians as followers of Christ as churches, better reflections of God's love and, and working together. And, you know, when when all this kind of went down a few years ago, that pandemic and all the racial injustice, and all that stuff is in the middle of us writing. You know, it, it bothered me, that political leaders and these people feeling this tension didn't go to the church and say, Hey, how do you does do it? How have you guys worked on because we weren't ones that were providing the answer. We should have been the mod. I haven't gotten all that went down, they should have gone, hey, look in the church, they know how it's done. Let's go to them for advice. But that wasn't what happened, because we're kind of behind the eight ball in that. So wouldn't it be great if we are the models for a more inclusive, more just more caring society that I think God has called us to be? You know, people constantly refer to the church and they Oh, we we need to be like those people in our politics, in our government in our, you know, in our schools and all that kind of stuff. Would that's, that's our hope. Yes.

Joshua Johnson: 42:19

Yes. Let's, let's help. Let's, let's see it. Let's make it happen. Dan, a couple quick questions. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Dan Kreiss: 42:29

Oh, man. I go bungee jumping because I never did. And now like I'm never did a I did. I'm on

Joshua Johnson: 42:38

New Zealand was where I went bungee jumping on the bridge Kawarau bridge where it started, where the first bungee

Dan Kreiss: 42:47

is happening. And at the other four of the poor youth ministry person, I didn't have them. I was like, man, 100 bucks. That's a lot of money. But now now I'm like, I'm going back to like, I don't know if I could do it now. You know, I'd lose. I might lose some teeth. You know, they're not as tight as they used to be. So I think, yeah, take more adventures, be willing to do more things. But again, I'm amazed. So me and my 21 year old son, I don't know that he would listen to me. That's the problem.

Joshua Johnson: 43:18

Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure. It's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend?

Dan Kreiss: 43:26

Yeah, when I was just thinking about that. I've been reading some stuff on I'm leading a group to Guatemala, I'm reading some more stuff about leading leading people into different cultures and contexts. I'm trying to think of the author and I don't have enough top my head. But there's some good stuff out there about, again, being intentional about cross cultural connections and all that good stuff and having them my desire when I take this group is that they experienced worship that's completely different, their own and yet just as a worshipful, you know, on that they have, you know, they will understand the language, they will understand a lot of you know, what's going on. But God is still being worshiped, and how exciting that is. If I could think of the author, I send it to you, but I can't off the top of their head, sorry.

Joshua Johnson: 44:16

You know, we I, I run a missions organization. We have some people on Guatemala and some incredible things that are happening, and you're seeing some of these things that we've been talking about this, you know, Justice oriented, multi inclusive at churches. I mean, the people that we have on the ground, the church looks a lot different than it does here in the West, but the Jesus has been worshipped and glorified and and people on the margins are being lifted up, and we're seeing a lot of incredible fruit there so that you're gonna have a good time and in Guatemala. Well, Dan, thank you for this conversation. It was it was yeah, it was fantastic. I love that. We got to talk about the emergent generations that there are a bunch of non affiliated Do people, some nuns, but there is some hope that they they love the world. They love others that they don't see denominations. They see authentic faith, and that is experienced and lived out and embodied. And that we can be churches that do that as well that we can be justice oriented, multi, inclusive churches, then we can start to walk in those ways that we're here. We're a church for everyone. So thank you for this conversations. Great.

Dan Kreiss: 45:30

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Joshua Johnson: 45:32

Thank you.