Ep. 172 A.J. Swoboda Returns - Jesus, the Flesh, and the War for Our Wants

In this episode, A.J. Swoboda returns to Shifting Culture to discuss his latest book The Gift of Thorns. We talk desires and longings. Our desires are good – we see desire in Adam even before the fall. But sometimes we have desires of the flesh, but even those desires point to an ultimate longing that we have that can be ordered towards God. This is a great conversation, but we lost a bit of it because of technical issues. So you are going to miss a bit of it in the middle, but you probably won’t even notice that something is missing. So, my suggestion – get A.J.’s book. It’s really fantastic and you won’t regret it. I want to have a small group go through it together. I think it’s so helpful. But before you do all that, join us in this conversation as we figure out how to order our desires, find healing, and forgiveness.

A.J. Swoboda (Ph.D., Birmingham) is an associate professor of Bible and Theology at Bushnell University and lead mentor for the Doctor of Ministry Program on Spiritual Formation and Soul Care at Friends University. He is the author of many books, including The Gift of Thorns (Zondervan), After Doubt (Brazos), and the award-winning Subversive Sabbath (Brazos). He hosts the Slow Theology podcast with Dr. Nijay Gupta. A.J. lives and works on an urban farm with his wife and son in Eugene, Oregon.

A.J.'s Book:
The Gift of Thorns

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

A.J. Swoboda: 0:00

Because the desires I have on Monday are so different than the desires I have on Friday. And I need some place where my desires are not the center of my being. I in my book I call I call the cross the Sabbath for desires. And what I mean by that is that we need a place to hang our desires so that they don't control us that I have a stable identity that transcends that, listen, I am a different person on Mondays and I am on Fridays, I'd say on Mondays, I just want to give everything up. I'm like, I want to quit it all. I want to go live as an Amish person, by myself reject everything. And then on Friday, I'm like, I love my life, the weekends coming all is great. I am two different people. And if I don't have a place to hang my desires, I'm going to be I'm going to traumatize everyone around me. I'm going to be like to different human beings. And when Jesus says Deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me. I get the sense he's saying like you don't, you can actually be liberated from having to make your desires the core part of your identity.

Joshua Johnson: 1:25

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week. And go leave a rating and review. It's easy. It only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network, tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included new J Gupta, Lucy Pepe and Pete Gregg. You could go back listen to those episodes, and more. But today's guest is AJ Swoboda. I'm so thankful that Aj is back on the podcast. AJ is an associate professor of Bible and theology at Bucknell University and lead mentor for the Doctor of Ministry program on spiritual formation and soul care at Friends University. He is the author of many books, including the gift of thorns after doubt, and the award winning subversive Sabbath. He hosts the slow theology podcast with ni J. Gupta. He lives and works on an urban farm with his wife and son in Eugene, Oregon. AJ and I discussed his latest book the gift of thorns in this conversation, we talked desires and longings, that our desires are good. We see desire and Adam even before the fall, but sometimes we have desires of the flesh. But even those desires point to an ultimate longing that we have, that can be ordered towards Scott, this is a great conversation. But we lost a bit of it because of some technical issues. So you're gonna miss a little bit of it in the middle. But I don't even know if you're going to notice that something is missing. So my suggestion is get a Jays book. It's really fantastic and you won't regret it. I want to have a small group to go through it together. I think it's going to be so helpful. So before you do all of that, join us in this conversation as we figure out how to order our desires, find healing and forgiveness. Here's my conversation with AJ Swoboda AJ Welcome to shifting cultural really excited to have you on thanks for joining me Joshua

A.J. Swoboda: 4:04

at any chance I get on a Friday morning to drink coffee with with with somebody else and have a conversation is a good day. It's great to see you.

Joshua Johnson: 4:15

Good. I'm glad it's good. I have some coffee right here ready to go. And we're gonna have a good conversation of your new book a gift of thorns. How the world can thorns be gifts I know Paul as his thorn in the side but really are thorns a gift? I know in Genesis it did say that the words are for us. So how are thorns a gift?

A.J. Swoboda: 4:39

Okay, so here's my publisher would be mad at me if I gave the whole kit and caboodle so I'm not I'm not gonna give everything away. But what I will What I will say is that even in the two references that you just brought up this this image of thorns. Even Paul when he describes his thorn in the side which which by Hundreds and theologians together have no clue what the thorns are. Paul never clarifies the never irons out. Some people think it was a sexual struggle. Some people think it was a person who was bugging him. Some people think it was one of my friends actually thinks that it was that he was not one of the original 12 disciples and witches in the midst of Second Corinthians where he's arguing for His Apostle apostleship. We don't know what it is. But we know for sure, he says that when he prays to Jesus to take it away, Jesus doesn't and does it does not take it away, so as to keep him from becoming conceited. So even Paul, when he's describing that his own thorn in his side, eye, he does it in such a way where he is seeing that thorn as, as shaping him, and making him who he is. So basically, the big idea in the book is God has, because of His love, He has put us in our post rebellion state, he has put us in a world where we don't get everything we want. And that that in the end is a gift. Because if we got everything that we want in our rebellious state, things would be very bad. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 6:07

there'll be chaos. There'll be chaos everywhere. Yeah. And we have pockets of society around the world where people try and get everything that they want. And we have seen some disastrous effects. But before we get to some of that, I'd love to go into and to you, and what what is your relationship with desire? And why did you say I need to spend years working on theology of desire and really digging deep into it? Yep.

A.J. Swoboda: 6:41

A story of actually it was. It's one of the weirdest things in the world devoted. So I'm going to tell you a story and then go and then it'll make sense. A weird story. I have always I'm 42. I'm now in my midlife.

Joshua Johnson: 6:54

Welcome, welcome. Crisis. It's fine.

A.J. Swoboda: 6:58

Yeah, I've been I've been telling everybody that I've been doing my swan dive into my midlife crisis, I've arrived, I'm there. I'm 42. And I have never, I hate my birthday. I have always hated my birthday. It has been an actually, Joshua, I often get really depressed on my birthday. And there have actually been a couple of birthdays that I have. I have struggled with suicidal ideation. I mean, it's very, very dark. And there's, there's a real historic reason why that's the case. When I, when I was a kid, I had, I think I remember one birthday party that I had for me as a kid. And I've never wanted one since. And I've come to learn that the reason I don't like my birthday is I'm, I'm terrified to find out if nobody comes. And what that is going to mean for me is just realizing I'm not who you know, maybe I'm loved, I'm not loved. And I've been, here's, here's where it comes from. When I am asked what I want for my birthday, I never know what to say. And I that little, like that little insight for me is a very, it's a very telling insight, because I don't actually know my desires. And I should say, like, like I, my desires are so like, all over the place. In fact, at the very beginning of the book, I tell the story of sitting in a faculty meeting for one hour, and just writing down all of my desires for one hour. And what was what what I learned about myself in one hour is that I want a deeper relationship with Jesus, I want more time with God, I want a better relationship with my son, I want more pizza, I want sex. I want this faculty meeting to end I want I mean, my desires are so weird that it is like the realm of chaos. And I wrote this book because I don't think I'm alone. I think we all have such complex emotions. St. Augustine calls it the gymnasium of desire. We're all a gymnasium of desire. And if we don't have a grasp on those desires, we're going to do a lot of harm to a lot of people and to ourselves. And so this this book is really it's an exploration in how we can understand our wants, and what God wants for our wants.

Joshua Johnson: 9:22

If we don't understand our wants, I think we start to desire, desire, we start to figure out it's like, Hey, I just want that feeling of desire. Then how have you started to figure out what do I want? What do I desire?

A.J. Swoboda: 9:42

By the way, just this it always killed as a writer. This is one of the hardest things is after a book is published, realizing that there was something you didn't include in your book that you wished you had. There is this little tiny section in one of Dallas Willards least read The books in which he wrote an article called, of Nietzsche versus Jesus Christ, Nietzsche versus Jesus Christ, in which he talks about how, when you live in an environment where you can get everything you want, where all the options are open, it leads to the death of desire. So when you when you don't have boundaries for your desire, your desire begins to die. And he says, because of that, we now live in a world where everything becomes about awakening desire, because we don't have it. And he calls it, he calls it the Viagra society. We are a society that is trying to awaken desire, because we don't have it because all of our options are open. I think that's one of the conundrums of our post, post Christian Post postmodern moment is that because everything's available to us now, our desire is overwhelmed. How have I come to understand my desire? Number one, in the last couple of years, Joshua, I have done more work to understand my family of origin and my, my childhood, than I have done in my entire life. And what I've come to find is that there was there were deep woundings of desire that took place to me as a kid, that really did affect me. In fact, one of the most important things I have ever done in my life to December's ago was I paid my therapist for four days, to go away and under just get into my, my, my early childhood sexual trauma. And those experiences, understanding those experiences, and how they have affected me have depth changed who I am. So I would say how do I understand it? I think being a Christian should mean that we know ourselves really well. And that we get into our own story. And we invite people into that story to help us be curious, because God is there's one theologian called God is the divine archaeologist, who wants us to draw out from the dust of our lives, those treasures that he wants us to see.

Joshua Johnson: 12:11

Yeah, I know that God has created this desire in us. And so they're not always bad. Sometimes we think those you know, our desire is, is bad. We want to push it aside. Yeah. And so we, we hide them, right? We hide our desires, we hide our what we think is our perversions or our lustful thoughts or something where we are not wanting other people to see that. And so if we don't get into it, those things will start to fester and grow in us. But God gave desires. So even your longing. Why you don't like birthdays is hey, I, your longing is to know to be loved, to be known. Yes. And not to be alone. Yes. And that was Adams desire. And, you know, before the fall, right, in the settler society, how does? How does that understanding help us?

A.J. Swoboda: 13:11

There's a thinker by the name of Jay Stringer, who wrote a book called unwanted. This book is one of the most important books I think, written in the last 10 years around the topic of sexual desire. And he has this kind of theory, and I think he's, I think he's absolutely right. I've really sort of bought into this. And that is that when you when you walk with somebody who has a pornography addiction, and and has a desire for something that is that is harmful to themselves, and is sinful fleshly desire, when you walk alongside somebody who who experiences that desire. Yes, the desire for pornography is is not good, and God doesn't want that. But stringer argues that underneath every single evil desire is a deeply wounded godly desire. And he has this line in the intro to his book where he says, he says, What is what appears to be a a longing for sin, or a lustful desire is at the end of the day, a deep desire to be loved. And, and what I'm really compelled by that because when you look at Genesis one and two, humans were made with only good desires. I mean, their desires were, desire is good, God main desire. Desire is not evil. You know, desire becomes perverted after Genesis three. And that's actually how I define the flesh. The flesh are good desires, disconnected from God. So the desire remains, but it becomes hitched to things that are not of God. So underneath most of our evil desires, Joshua, underneath most of our evil desires are actually desires for the good, that are just perverted and twisted. That's why this book, I think, is, is is, is so critical,

Joshua Johnson: 15:15

then how can we orient our desires towards the good? What does that discernment look like for us? How do we know when maybe some of the these desires or our gray areas? We don't know if it's black and white? And how do we order it towards the good,

A.J. Swoboda: 15:35

there's, there's a power, there's a real power in reconnecting and re understanding our family of origin or childhood. And when I go back to that story of, of getting away with my therapist for three days, for four days, and getting into my story, what I learned from that experience is afterwards, that when Jesus says, you know, Let the children come to Me, He does mean, you know, let the physical, let the actual children come to Me, I know, that's what he means. But it also I think, for many of us as adults, I think what that means is, don't let let your childhood Let your inner child but let that kid of yours, come to Jesus. And, and that what Jesus has the power to do, is he can heal much of many of our childhood wounds retroactively. And part below that requires that we're willing to go back and listen. But many of our desires are connected to those childhood stories. And so So reconnecting with our childhood family of origin stuff, is a very healing experience.

Joshua Johnson: 16:43

As it is interesting, you know, when I've gone back at times back into my childhood, one of the things that that set me on a trajectory was the moment my sister came home from the hospital when I was three years old. And she as a colicky baby, had all the attention in the house. And I felt like I was alone, right. And it was strange, like that set me on a path of trajectory where my voice was, was muted and silent. I believed. And so I became quieter and more reserved. And I had to go back. And so even little things like that, where none of that was, was a sin war. None of that was was something that I did personally that I needed to say, I'm confessing those things in your childhood, I needed to say, Jesus, where were you in that situation? Where will? And then what can I know from that scene? And how can I live differently today with you? And how can you hear me? So what I know that in James that says, you know, confess your sins, one to another, and you'll be healed? Right? Yeah. You and when you're confessing your sins, one to another? But what about those trauma things, the things that have been done to us, like send that has been done to us, or even inadvertent things that have done to us? How do we get healing, and those

A.J. Swoboda: 18:09

this is a perfect moment for me to name my own. My own inadequacies, I am not a trained therapist, nor am I a trauma informed, I'm not I'm not a trauma informed theologian. And so I need to defer, as always in people's lives to being in the right spaces to ask those on a personal level, because that won't be I want to be careful to not speak in a general way. But but but I would say as someone with a unique experience in the church and as a theologian, we we can easily create false, a false form of spirituality that basically says something like this. In Jesus, the blood of Christ washes away all of that pain. And so just move on. And does Jesus heal? Does Jesus heal and bring bring us forgiveness for our sin 100%. But part of the healing process must go further than the forgiveness of sins, and actually to distinguish the two. And first John one, John says, confess your sins to God, and you'll be forgiven. James says, confess your sins to each other for healing. And what strikes me is there's a difference between forgiveness and healing. And many Christians, many Christians are forgiven but unhealed. And but but I would also say many of my secular friends who do a lot of work of naming their own brokenness in a counseling office US experience healing, but haven't tapped into forgiveness yet. We need forgiveness and healing. And the work of healing is a much larger story than just praying the sinners prayer. So I think I'm gonna defer here to people's pastors, shepherds, and, and therapists, and say, in the intricacies of your stories, get in those rooms to talk about that. But But theologically, we've, we must reject an understanding of healing, that simply says, I've prayed a prayer, the work is done. No, often the prayer is the beginning of

Joshua Johnson: 20:45

the work. So you know, a lot of people come to you and say, I'm tempted in this place or another, this is my desire that I'm going to have. Jesus himself was tempted in every way, as a human, and was able to, to live within the limits of what is God given to us. And, you know, the serpent came to you to Adam and Eve, and they decided to eat of the fruit that God said, You shouldn't eat of ants that was catastrophic for humanity, up until now. But Jesus himself was tempted by by Satan, and he was able to withstand that temptation, and not given to you. Even, you know, taking over all of the kingdoms of the worlds. He, he didn't give into that. And even the things that I, I think, would not be sinful of like a turning this this rock into bread, I don't think that would be sinful. But it was a limit that he was given at that moment. How can we learn from Jesus and his temptations and how he didn't give in to you with a into that, for us moving forward?

A.J. Swoboda: 22:01

Yeah, I mean, there's so much about the temptation story of Jesus that we could talk about. And by the way, that the way that Matthew is the way Matthew records, Jesus being tempted in the desert, it's it's not a mistake, that, you know, the first temptation Jesus faces, is turn the rock into bread. It it's not a mistake, that the first temptation Jesus faces is around food. And the temptation that the man and the woman expects was around food as well, that the enemy's, you know, tactics are kind of on full display here is that he often gives us our deepest temptations, in a way that is aligned with our deepest needs, you know, and so, but but but actually, you know, the more and more I read the temptation story of Jesus in the desert, in Matthew's Gospel, in particular, is is actually walk away from that story, realizing this is not a a story about what we're supposed to do. We read I think we read the the Matthew, that we read, The Temptations are in Think like, Okay, if we follow how Jesus does this, we can withstand our own temptation that becomes a paradigm for how we can, you know, withstand our own condition, there's certainly lessons we can learn from it, right? Jesus stands on what has been written, and he quotes it is written multiple times, he quotes, relatively obscure Old Testament texts like Deuteronomy, and you know, that he has in his back pocket that he knows. But but the more and more I read that I'm actually not convinced that this is a set of stories about how we can face our own temptations, it's actually the opposite. It's about how humans cannot face their own temptations and need somebody else who can. That it becomes in essence, it becomes the story about what humans could never do and can't do, and only only Jesus can do. So. I think when it's reframed that way, it becomes less about how we face our temptations. And it becomes more about how we stand behind Jesus, who faced the temptations that we ourselves cannot write, though, that we stand behind his his capacity to withstand the doubles. But But even that, I mean, still still, Jesus is the sinless Son of God, you've never since never since, and yet experiences temptation. And that even that in of itself is so redeeming for me, because I am so quick to just shame myself and beat myself up for facing temptations, as though temptations were a sin and tempt if Jesus is sinless and experienced temptations, real human temptation. And if you're gonna say they weren't real human temptations, then you are denying the humanity of Jesus, and that we have a word for that. That's called heresy. So, if Jesus really faced temptations, then it is not a sin, to experience It's unwanted desires, it is not a sin to experience, deep temptations. It is indeed a sin to follow them and do them. But to experience them all in of themselves, is to deny Jesus's own experience. You can walk faithfully with God, in an experienced temptation and not give it its power. That's a liberating concept. Because, Joshua, I know so many Christians that don't beat themselves up because of sin, they beat themselves up because they want sin. That's called the flesh. And, and you've got it, and it's not going to go away until your resurrection. And, and you don't get to choose your flesh, the flesh is. So that may be a liberating word for just one person, stop beating yourself up for having unwanted desires, or temptation. Good Lord, Jesus experienced it. You may as well be kind to yourself.

Joshua Johnson: 26:05

Yes, ads, man, I'd love to be kind to myself, that'd be great. Also helps me rely on God more than if I didn't have those, I actually lean into him more and more and more, because I have these thorns. I have these temptations. I have this sinful desire, I need Jesus over and over and over again. And so it helps me not to become complacent and my faith, my relationship with Him, and to say I need you.

A.J. Swoboda: 26:42

You started just by asking me how thorns are a gift. Yeah. And you're you're answering the question that you provoked at the beginning of this conversation, those thorns in our side. Those things that we we bear in our lives that we don't want that we wish were not there, when they are held, well make us dependent on God, they actually end up making us deeper people. We spend our lives trying to get rid of the thorns, rather than seeing the thorns as God's way of teaching us to be dependent people. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 27:17

This morning, I started to cry while reading your book, in the section where you talked about your course of teaching Bible, gender, and sexuality. Is that I mean, that was a hard thing for you to be able to enter into and do is difficult. And but it there was some beautiful things that happened in that can you take us into into that course? How? Because I think that can actually be a little bit healing for us. Thinking about today, our culture, our differences are polarization. And what does it look like to be open and honest with one another?

A.J. Swoboda: 27:59

Yeah, there's so many dynamics about I'm reteaching. That class, I'm teaching it in the fall again. And I'm, I'm so excited. It has become my favorite class, Bible, sexuality and gender. Yeah, I'm I'm so so I'm a I'm a very, I don't like these the terms are, can be alienating. I apologize. But I'm what you would call an old school conservative, you know, Guy on sexuality. And it's, you know, historically Christian perspective, whatever word you want to call it. And I teach at a, you know, a big your Christian University, and in which we have a very diverse set of students. And I decided a couple of years ago, I needed to teach a class on this. And I'm tired of running away from the topic, and I'm tired for my students being afraid to talk about it. So I taught a class and I went in, very excited, and then the first class happened, and I thought, I'm gonna lose my job. I'm going to get canceled or something bad's gonna happen. And what happened over the next 16 weeks, have a group of students who came together and with open hearts and open minds, read the Bible, and didn't so putting their agendas aside, I mean, I had students in that class, who work gotten conservative students, I had progressive students, I had straight kids, I had a couple of gay kids in that class. And I saw the kingdom of God come in that class. And it and it came. Because I saw a group of people put aside everything that they brought to the conversation, their anger, their frustration, their you know all of it, and just decided to listen to the Bible. And what I found was when we actually choose to allow the Bible to be our guiding star, when it becomes our when it becomes the thing that speaks to us, most truthfully and prophetically. It is healing for everybody. It's hard. And it didn't, it was not an easy class. But I had students in that class, who privately I mean, after the class students who were like, I have never, as a Christian, been in an environment where we can talk about this stuff. And the very fact that we were able to talk about it was healing for students. Here's what I found. The church needs to stop being terrified to talk about this. In our book, the Bible is so unbelievably healing, but we're embarrassed of it. And we, and we talk about it the way Abraham talked about Sarah, She's not my wife, she's my sister. And we're embarrassed. And we need to stop being embarrassed of God's word to us in His healing, and it deserves to be heard. And, yeah, it may get you cancelled, and you may lose your job. But at the end of the day, what's most important, I'd rather people be healed, and I lose my job than anything else.

Joshua Johnson: 31:00

Amen. Amen. Is there a way that we could take that, that same concept, that same thing outside of the classroom or outside of a church, where people from diverse backgrounds, perspectives can be together and have some sort of an experience like that? So they could actually hear from one another, listen to one another and see one another?

A.J. Swoboda: 31:23

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that there is I haven't figured it out. But what I can say is that there are people who are modeling that and modeling it with such profound grace and truthfulness. I think, for example, my friend Preston sprinkle, whose work in theology and the raw and whatnot. I mean, he is just modeling biblical faithfulness and profound compassion. At the same time, I think of my friend, Pastor Evan Wickham, who pastors Park Hill Church in San Diego, I'm drinking from his coffee cup right now. He is modeling in the church, what a pastor can do, in our moment in time to lead people into these things. There are models that are rising to the surface. And I would love to be part of that on the theological side. But I haven't figured it out yet. I'm just starting with doing a class. And I think eventually down the road, I want to write a book about that class, just a whole book about what I learned from this class, how to talk about these things in a really good way. But I need to teach it more than one time before I can reach up.

Joshua Johnson: 32:27

Yeah, well, yeah, more practice more practice. And I think that is good. I, man, it's such, I think, a stellar example of what we need to be, and to focus on the Bible moving forward, that helps us order things and order our desires correctly, to be more aligned with Jesus. And, you know, Jesus himself. This is the thing that he you know, he says, to all of us, is that we get to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow him. It's how, yay, I want to deny. Why is that healing to deny ourselves? Yeah,

A.J. Swoboda: 33:17

yeah, here's why. Because the desires I have on Monday are so different than the desires I have on Friday. And I need some place where my desires are not the center of my being. I in my book, I call I call the cross the Sabbath for desires. And what I mean by that is that we need a place to hang our desires so that they don't control us that I have a stable identity that transcends that, listen, I am a different person on Mondays and I am on Fridays, I'd say on Mondays, I just want to give everything up. I'm like, I want to quit it all. I want to go live as an Amish person, by myself, reject everything. And then on Friday, I'm like, I love my life, the weekends coming all is great. I am two different people. And if I don't have a place to hang my desires, I'm going to be I'm going to traumatize everyone around me. I'm going to be like two different human beings. And when Jesus says Deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me. I get the sense he's saying like, you don't, you can actually be liberated from having to make your desires the core part of your identity. You don't have to follow your desires. That is so liberating. Because we live in a moment in time, where it's like the secular sainthood of our moment is you have to follow your desires. And if you do that, that is living hell. That's how on earth I can't live that way. If I if I followed the mantra you do you, everybody in my life would be traumatized. My son would Pay the heaviest price for that Bologna, trashy way of thinking. Thank God, I'm freed from that. I don't have to do that. I have the Holy Spirit. And I have I have I get to have a stable identity that transcends the Monday, AJ from the Friday, AJ.

Joshua Johnson: 35:17

And then that's so good. What would you say to your readers? What? What would you hope for them to move forward after reading your book?

A.J. Swoboda: 35:29

There's this weird thing that happens with writers where when you get together with another writer, it's so fun. It's so awesome. Because you get to like, be like, Oh, you get me. You understand what it's like to put a book out, you understand, like, the anxiety in the sphere, it really means a lot to be understood by somebody. And I want I want people to read this book, and say the phrase, this book put language to what I experienced every day of my life, so that you know, you are not alone. And, and to have that kind of fellowship, I may never meet all my readers, but I want my reader to feel like whoever wrote this book gets me, I'm not alone.

Joshua Johnson: 36:21

And God is with me, as beautiful. That's really beautiful. So then how can people go out and get your book and connect with you?

A.J. Swoboda: 36:31

Yeah, I you know, I increasingly hate social media. But if somebody wanted to, and I have a website, AJ swoboda.com, you can buy my book anywhere books are sold. Another great way is I do a Thursday substack article called low level theologian, that called the low level theologian, which is about just a weekly devotional, I have a podcast called Slow theology that you can listen to, but at the end of the day, to get the book, you can get it anywhere books are sold, try to support your local bookstore if you can.

Joshua Johnson: 37:04

Yeah, that's right. That's good. Well, AJ, I love your book, like it's, it spoke to me deeply, to be able to figure out how do I order my desires? Well, to know that desires are actually good, they're from God, and that my sinful desires are the backdrop of a undergirding longing that I actually have. Yeah, that is good. And for God and with God. And so thank you for walking us through this. I know it was, it was not an easy book, to write. And it was a lot of a lot of work for you. And I think this is really, it's been helpful for me, and I pray that it's really helpful for a lot of people. I mean, there's a couple of desires that I have, after reading this book, one, I have a desire to get a groups of people to read this together, to be able to discuss their desires, and help us order them properly as a actual formation towards Jesus, like, what does that look like? And to I have a desire to spend time with you, because I loved getting to know you through these pages and these words, and that I would love to be at a birthday celebration with you.

A.J. Swoboda: 38:28

It would require a drawing. But Manchester from you back, Joshua. Yeah, I think this is actually the second time I've been with you. I think we actually did a podcast earlier. And the podcast worlds an interesting world. Many of the people that I get interviewed by don't read my books. And the fact that you just said that you cried, as you read, it actually says you read the thing. Thank you for taking seriously your task and doing the work that you do, and actually caring enough to actually engage the stuff that you're talking about. It means the world to me as a reader, your your listeners are served very well by you.

Joshua Johnson: 39:00

Thank you. Thank you. As a closing, can you just recommend one thing for us that has been helping you right now to something has been helping you? Yep.

A.J. Swoboda: 39:14

Listening to my son. My son is a prophet to my life, and he is the best gauge in terms of how I'm doing health wise. And he tells me when I'm not around enough, he says, Dad, you are angry, but you're not saying it. My son was a prophet. And when Jesus said, Let the children come to Me, he meant it. Let the children come to you their profits, listen to kids.

Joshua Johnson: 39:40

Amen. So God, thank you, AJ, I really enjoyed this conversation. And it's just a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you,

A.J. Swoboda: 39:47

Joshua. Thank you