Ep. 173 Micha Boyett - Embracing Limits and Longings: Disability, Parenting, and the Beatitudes

In this episode, Micha  Boyett shares her story of finding out her son Ace would be born with down syndrome and the subsequent years of raising him. Through her story, she uses the framework of the beatitudes found in Jesus’ sermon on the mount as a way to embrace the limits and longings that she has been given. We talk about how the Beatitudes help redefine human worth and value through Jesus' teachings of blessing the marginalized. Micha discusses ableism, grief, suffering, spirituality, following Jesus by loving those on the margins, and living more slowly in today's fast-paced world. So join us as we learn to embrace our limits and longings, so that we can enter the full life of flourishing.

In addition to Blessed Are the Rest of Us, Micha Boyett is the author of Found: A Story of Questions, Grace, and Everyday Prayer and a contributor to the New York Times bestseller A Rhythm of Prayer, edited by Sarah Bessey. She is cohost of the award winning The Lucky Few podcast, creator of The Slow Way podcast and newsletter, and has written for publications such as the Washington Post and Christianity Today. In addition to her work as a writer, she is a part-time youth pastor at Good Shepherd Church in New York City. Boyett lives with her husband and their three sons.

Micha's book:
Blessed Are the Rest of Us

Micha's Substack:
The Slow Way

Micha's Recommendations:
Field Notes for the Wilderness by Sarah Bessey
Mostly What God Does by Savannah Guthrie

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Micha Boyett: 0:00

Part of the gift for me of having a child with intellectual disability has been just that I have been forced every day to reckon with the intrinsic ableism inside me that has transformed the way I exist in the world. But I think it has the power to transform everybody else who is not with someone with a disability daily. But some of that is just knowing someone. Some of that is putting yourself in a space where you can encounter people whose lives are different than yours.

Joshua Johnson: 0:53

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week. And go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Sarah Bessie, Kayla Craig and Sharon hottie Miller. You can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Micah Boyet. In addition to bless her the rest of us Michael Boyd is the author of found a story of questions grace and everyday prayer and a contributor to the New York Times bestseller a rhythm of prayer, edited by Sarah Bessie. She is co host of the award winning the lucky few podcast, creator of the slow way podcast and newsletter and has written for publications such as the Washington Post and Christianity today. In addition to her work as a writer, she is a part time youth pastor at Good Shepherd Church in New York City boy that lives with her husband and their three sons in New Jersey. As we enter into this conversation, Micah shares her story of finding out her son ace will be born with Down syndrome in the subsequent years of raising him. For her story, she uses the framework of the Beatitudes found in Jesus's sermon on the mount as a way to embrace the limits and longings that she has been given. We talked about how the Beatitudes help redefine human worth and value through Jesus's teachings of blessing. The marginalized. Micah discusses ableism grief, suffering spirituality following Jesus by loving those on the margins, and living more slowly in today's fast paced world. So join us as we learn to embrace our limits and longings so that we can enter the full life of flourishing. Here's my conversation with Micah boy yet. Well, Micah, welcome to shifting culture. Really excited to have you on thank you for joining me.

Micha Boyett: 3:23

You are so welcome. Thanks for having me, Joshua.

Joshua Johnson: 3:26

Yeah, this book club, bless her. The rest of us how limits and longing make us whole is absolutely fantastic, did an incredible job. And I know, you know, when I have authors on, I know how much work goes into these books and how many years goes into it. And to have it be birthed is quite an accomplishment. But this one feels very, very special. And to bring in the Beatitudes, and to bring in what is our posture like towards towards Jesus in the midst of, of suffering and difficulty and the ever day of life? I think is fantastic. So Well, Dad, good job so

Micha Boyett: 4:11

much. That is that just makes my heart flutter. Thank you.

Joshua Johnson: 4:17

Yeah, of course. You know, I would love to just start out with your story as you're have written a lot of this book as you're taking the the Beatitudes as a framework as you're walking through, but also sharing a bit of your own story as well in the midst of it. So using your own story and the Beatitudes together. So take us into that. Where does this start? Where does your story start? And how does that intersect with these blessings of Jesus?

Micha Boyett: 4:51

Sure, yeah. So most of the story of this book is about them, the birth and the law. I have my youngest son, I have three boys. And nine years ago, when I was pregnant with my youngest, I had an experience that happens actually to a lot of women, where you go in for your ultrasound, and the doctor comes in concerned and says, there is, there's a marker here for Down syndrome, we think we should test. Now this, I mean, I had this happen to so many friends, in my, in my 10 years where everybody was having babies, that I almost, like, barely let myself think about it. I was sort of like, yep, this happened to this person and this person in this person, everybody's fine. So I took a blood test. And two weeks later, I picked up the phone when the geneticists called me back. And I was I mean, this shows you how much I was not concerned, I tend I'm, I tend to worry a lot. But somehow there are things in my life that I don't worry about at all, and which causes problems. But I am walking to gymnastics class in San Francisco where I lived, pushing my little toddler in his stroller, and I pick up the phone. And this stranger, I didn't know, told me that the child I was carrying had Down syndrome would have Down syndrome. And it was, you know, I think there's just those moments in your life when you are like, here's, here's where my life is going. And then everything, everything stops, the whole thing turns around, you start walking in different direction. And that was what happened for me. I had a real season of, of grieving and trying to understand what I was grieving. I had been a person who had grown up around people with intellectual disability, and loved them. And I think that also shocked me that I grieved that, that I was not, like, ready, set go with this new life. That was the head God was offering me. And then my son was born. And he went from being and he remember the very moment, he went from being a diagnosis that I was terrified of, to being a person I knew and loved. And it was when I looked in his face and said, Oh, it's you. It's you, I know you. And, and this book is about, not necessarily that season, of finding out that my son would have Down syndrome, but all the seasons after of learning how to, to live beside him in this world, in a world that often doesn't want one him in a world that often doesn't make space for him. That, that is afraid of him. And, and as I started to enter into that world with my eyes opened to what people believed about my son, I needed to redefine what I believed about myself and about my son. And I found, I found a way forward in the Beatitudes, I found Jesus setting up His entire ministry, and saying, who matters most in the world. And, and I realized in the process, that the way that I had thought I mattered was by what I did, by what I achieved by how, how impressively I showed up in the world. And that in living that way, and believing that way. I, I was living opposite of how I wanted the world to see my son. So it was a transformation of myself to from a life of have seen my worth, from what I did to see my worth from my belovedness and from God's delight in my humanity.

Joshua Johnson: 9:27

Now that's the really most transformational things that could ever happen to us as humans is moving from our worth from what we do to who we are as a beloved child of God. And how do how does the Beatitudes place us in that place? How did you get that hope from saying oh, this is what Jesus says about those who who suffer and mourn and all of these things, and that there's this the kingdom. How did that how Have you realize your belovedness? And move away from saying I am? Who what I do?

Micha Boyett: 10:08

That's a great question. I think as I began to learn how to be aces, Mom aces, my youngest son, with Down syndrome, I, I needed to redefine a lot of things. And one of the things I needed to define was what makes us human in and I think that that process of working through that question was a really deeply spiritual process for me. And I think I knew, in my gut, that the way that Jesus lived in the world, was always pointing to the worth and value of my son. But I think it took me a while to find the Beatitudes as my textbook for for this, this new way of being. Jesus gives His beatitudes twice in the gospels, once it's before His Sermon on the Mount, which is the longest recorded sermon in, in the scriptures of Jesus, and His Sermon on the plane, which is almost the same as except it takes place on a plane instead of a mountain, which I think is really funny. And, you know, some scholars think that this is, maybe like Jesus had a few talks he gave, you know, like, maybe this is a talk he gave in one place, and he gave a talk in the same in another place, and they showed up a little bit different each time. But before he gets his sermon on the mount, and this is takes place at the start of his ministry, he almost has this little poetry riff. And it's like a poem when he gives his Beatitudes, and you know, a little about the background of what he's doing there. This is a Greco Roman oratory tradition, where speakers would stand up in front of people and say, I'm going to tell you how to live the good life, I'm going to tell you how to be happy, and they would start reciting how to be happy. And it would be about virtues, you know, like, do not steal from your neighbor and be keep your word. And you know, all these things of like, yes, yes, yeah, that makes a person a good person, you know, and Jesus stands up, takes this same tradition that people would know and recognize, and says, I'm going to tell you how to live the good life, I'm going to tell you how to find true human happiness. And it, I'm going to tell you that it belongs to these people, it belongs to all of you who are poor, or poor in spirit, it belongs to all of you who are grieving, it belongs to those of you who have no power, or who give up your power. It belongs to you, who are showing mercy to you who are longing for justice, like this list of, not not virtues, but lists of, of pain list of the human experience. And, you know, there's, we, we may not be experiencing everything on that list, at at, at the same time in our lives, but we will move through that list in different ways, we will all grieves, hopefully, we will all be given the chance to give up our power for the sake of another person, hopefully, we will, we will live out this longing for justice. And the reason I found ace in that was because I saw Jesus centering the people who were not being centered in the world, and still centering those people through these words. This is a poem that says, here's the people who who get to live the life that God dreams of. And it's all of you who don't think you're living the life that that you dreamed of. There. It's this incredible invitation that is sometimes really confusing. But I think also has the potential to transform us. It

Joshua Johnson: 14:14

will transform us, it's been really beneficial for for me as I've been walking through those things. But as we we look at the Beatitudes, one of the things that you know, even in the title of your book, blast the rest of us were talking about that word blast a lot of times it's it's just a platitude of blessings. And we don't really know what that actually means. And I like that you use the Greek throughout your your book to help us re frame and rethink what blessing is and what being blessed means. Can you reframe it for us so that we know what this is? And it's not just a really surface level platitude that we give each other Yeah,

Micha Boyett: 15:00

yeah, it actually is funny and a little bit embarrassing to me that blast is part of the title of I was gonna say, Yeah, I promised myself like 15 years ago, I would never use the word again. There's, it is such a trite phrase, and like this vaguely religious, you know, quasi spiritual term that people usually refer to, for, like getting a great parking spot, and, and their kids making straight A's and never talking back. And, you know, having their team win the Super Bowl. And I just the thing that has always driven me crazy about this, that word, is just what it assumes about God, and what it assumes about us. And it, it's this idea that, like, I'm going to somehow be good enough that God is going to make my life easier. And when we live that way, and believe those things, then when people come into our lives, like my son, whose life is not easy, but it's good and beautiful. It is hard when you have this view of blessing to know what to do with that. I also think there's like, no, no, I have, after ace was born, a kind of experience two different kinds of people, I experienced the people who were concerned him with, with his reality with his existence, who were sorry, who were I actually had someone asked me soon after he was born, just like, drop a drop off at school, why I decided to keep him. And, and it is, you know, a shock that people feel comfortable saying that kind of thing to my mom, but also really revealing about the way that people think about disability in our culture. So I had that experience. And then I had this opposite experience. That was kind of like, the, the boomers on Facebook sending me memes about how ace was an angel chain, how am I cared, it inspires all, and there was a lot of, I don't know, that made me feel icky to i, it didn't feel right for, for me to hear from people that they were so happy that I had this angel baby who was going to teach everyone how to how to be happy. And, and both things. Were denying His humanity, both the rejection or seen him as a burden on society. And the part that says he's an angel, like both were rejecting the fact that he is actually fully human, and fully loved and fully himself. And, and so I think that idea of blessing was difficult for me when I came to the Beatitudes. I, I really loved the things Jesus was blessing people for, but the fact that he was blessing was, was concerning to me. And I had, you know, I'm a Bible nerd. So I had a lot of fun researching and just was delighted when I found Jonathan Pennington scholar, scholarly work where he talks about this, this word, and I'll probably say it wrong, because I'm no Greek scholar. But it's McElroy, and it is the it's, that's that's the plural, singular is macarius. And it's the word that Jesus uses for blessing. And we've translated it blessed. But it would be a more accurate translation, probably to say something like, true human happiness, or the flourishing life, or wholeness. And now, and that felt really important to me to single in on that, that what we think of blessing is, is not what Jesus was intending in this poem. He's intending to tell us what it means to find the really real the, the true thing underneath the surface of how we live and and that that is what true human happiness and flourishing looks like.

Joshua Johnson: 19:56

And we just blew by really quickly really real, but you're taught, and also the dream of God, some of the things that you've helped you redefine what the kingdom of God is, is that you know, as God's dream for the world, that's what is really real. Beyond the facade of this fallen world that we live in, at sea, what is the the kingdom? And I think that's helpful for us as we're walking in, what does it look like to have flourishing? So as you're now entering into the space where you have your son, and you have ace, and he is on, on the margins on the outside of society, as you said, there's, there's two reactions to this human life that you have with you, the sun that you have that you love, that is fully human? How do we move from seeing people as marginalized to actually then centering the marginalized? How do we get to that posture of moving towards centering, instead of seeing people as other and other end people? Yeah. And

Micha Boyett: 21:13

I, I, in part of this podcast, with two other women who are also moms of kids in in the Down Syndrome space, and we we talk about every week, that our goal is to shift narratives, and to shout the worst of people living with Down syndrome. And that is a really complicated thing to do. Because, you know, I think I referred briefly to ableism. But it ableism is deep in us, and it has not, you know, I think as, as a culture, we have been, like a lot has been revealed in, in the last 20 years about the prejudices we hold. And, and thankfully, there's great conversation happening around race. And there's not as much conversation happening around the prejudice that we all carry with us, when it comes to people who are living with disability. And in my experience, of, of loving someone with disability, its intellectual disability. And, you know, when I talked about my seen my value and my worth as, as based on what I could do, even in my relationship with God, of how could I please God? How could I be the right person, even that view of life is an ableist framework. It's this way of seeing our ourselves as only worthy because what we can do, and then when we encounter people who can't do what we can do, we don't we don't know how to respond. It's scary to us, because we have lived our lives, finding our value value in this very particular way of being alive. And yeah, I think part of the gift for me of having a child with an intellectual disability has been just that I have been forced every day to reckon with the intrinsic ableism inside me, that has transformed the way I exist in the world. But I think it has the power to transform everybody else who is not with someone with a disability daily. But some of that is just knowing someone, some of that is putting yourself in a space where you can encounter people whose lives are different than yours. I have a down the street, we just happened we moved three years ago to New Jersey. And we happened to move into a house where a block away, there is a home of people with and without disabilities living together. And it's it's called co home. And it's this inclusive living situation. And one of the things the founder talks about is that in most things, what most of what we think of as group homes where people adults with disability, are living independently or living with caregivers is those group homes or on the outskirts of town. There, you have to, you know, everybody piles into a van and drive somewhere to go, you know, experience an event or whatever. And people don't typical people rarely run into people with disability because people with disability are living on the outskirts of town, people with disability are going to specific work spaces that are not in the heart of the community. And one of the things that CO home wanted to do was put a house right in the middle of the historic district of my town, walking distance to the coffee shop and walking distance to the grocery store. And for for people with disability, to be front and center, to be seen, to be valued as members of the community. And I think that is the kind of, of thing that changes all of us. People with disability are marginal, marginalized, because those of us without disability are not seeking them out. And there are so many people, if you don't know anyone with a disability, it's because you're not looking. And you're not centering them yet. But start centering. And, and you'll see him Yes,

Joshua Johnson: 26:03

as you go, and just to be able to, to be next to people to see them for who they are, their humanity, it changes us all right, that I think any of these conversations that we have have even political arguments of you know, this, whatever it is, whether it be immigration, or race or disability, whatever it is, once we have relationship with people, and we see them when we know them, and we're involved in proximate space with them, it changes us. And so we have to get outside of ourselves, and we have to move towards something different. And the thing you know, when I lived in the Middle East, it shocked me how, how much behind the century and the disabled, they are even in the Middle East, right, that all all the disabled are hidden away in people's homes. And they are just left in corners. It's it's very, very sad, of what is happening. And there's a long ways that we have to go in America to be able to do that and move people forward to see people for for who they are. And, man, it's, it's a necessary thing. You know, one of the things you talked about briefly as the beginning when you were with a sudden you realize that he is going to have Down syndrome, and you got that call, and you started to grieve, and you didn't know why you're grieving or what you are craving, because you still have this this person. And sometimes we grieve, you know, a loss of something that we never had. One of the things you say in your chapter on grief and the Beatitudes, you know, blessed are those who grieve. And you, you have it here they will be invited to a divine banquet. And I want to just want to read this, it says the invitation to the banquet of grief throws open the doors of suffering, to reveal the kind of flourishing known only to those who have gone out with weeping and stepped back through with shouts of joy. How is that possible to walk through we've been suffering and stepping back in with shouts of joy.

Micha Boyett: 28:23

Mom, I love that. I love that question. In the book, I write about grieving, the pregnancy that I thought I was going to have, right, the child that I thought I was going to have. In the process of writing the book, I lost my dad, to just, you know, a horrible brain cancer that came quickly and painfully. And I think what I've learned about grief in that process has been that you don't, you don't walk out the door with grease, and then leave it outside and then come back and reach out to joy. You you go out the door with grief. And what you gather is you you gather that into the the shouts of joy are gathered in the same arms as the arms where you're still carrying the grief. The grief doesn't go away. Especially if the grief is a relationship that you don't get to have in person anymore. Like losing my dad. I grieve because I love my dad. And I don't get to have him with me. So I don't leave that behind. But I find in the person of Jesus and in the restoration, that that the hope we have gives us that we we can walk a path that brings us back to Joy, that joy can walk along with us. I think it's a mystery. And I think joy is a mystery to and I think the gift of our faith Is that we aren't asked to put down one for the other, that we get to hold them together. And it's in the same way as I feel about my, my life of raising ace, there's a lot that I longed for, for him. And in this book, I talk, I talk a lot about longing. I, I want life to be easier for him. I have grieved several things along the way in his life. And the thing that I have cried the most for, is the speech that has never come for him. And that he is still unable to talk unable to say, to call me Mama. And that doesn't mean I don't find utter delight in him. I was just with with him at therapy this morning. And his therapist, he, he was supposed to it was like physical therapy. So he's supposed to be getting like a massage and these places, and he just kept sitting back up and hugging her, just like, you know, just like, attacking her with hugs. And she's like, Ah, I really got to rub your back here. And, and that is like, my life is full of that joy of knowing him and what he has to offer the world. And the grief is still there. It's still hard. I have a friend, Heather Avis, who does the lucky few podcasts with me. And she says she always says hard is not bad. It's just hard. And I think that's good. It

Joshua Johnson: 31:34

is good. We just lost my mother in law. You know, she's lived with us for last seven years. And so she passed away, you know, at the end of January. And you know, that's the I have a six year old son. He's only known, you know, a home with his grandma living with a mountain. She's gone. And so is that it is? It's heavy right now. So that's, you know, that's why I'm entering into that grief place of like, our cat cheese us are the ones that grieve. Are we really blessed we actually get the the joy on that. On the other end? Is it wrapped together? Is that possible? Or are we just, you know, in the midst of a vacant space where our home feels empty? And what? So is he there? Is he going to meet us in the place of grief? Are we truly blessed? Is that true? That's I mean, those are the questions. Ya know, you asked me when you're actually suffering and when you're grieving, and when it's not going. Right and correct. But I know that I've seen people who have suffered the most become the most joyful people that I know. And why do you think people who suffer well and cling to Jesus in the midst of suffering, have joy? Richard

Micha Boyett: 33:00

Rohr somewhere, talks about it, he took for us to picture a circle as ourselves. And there's like the core of us, straight in the middle of the bullseye in the middle of that circle. And a lot of our lives we live on the edges. And, you know, part of that is how we as humans, learn how to survive in the world, we need to live on the edges, the surface of our lives, so that we can get the things done that we need to get done on our checklists, so that we can feed the people and clean the house and get the get our jobs done. And, and it also is how we learn to survive in a world with people. That the surface is how we say, I'm fine, are you and you know, there's we just, we mostly live our lives there. And the invitation of Jesus is to move from those edges to the core. And I think one of the things that is so beautiful about the Beatitudes is that Jesus is is sort of dividing the Beatitudes into this idea of our limits, and our longings, the things that we dream of for ourselves and the people we love, and the things that we know, we're limited in, limited by our whether it's our grief that's limited us or our power or our ability. I think that the limits and the longings of our lives are the way we can move to the core. I think they're kind of like these little arrows that are showing up on the edges inviting us to ride them down to the middle. I think that what Jesus does, when we talk about in our suffering, in our sadness in our pain, that we're finding hope is that that there are these opportunities to ride that, that limit to write that longing down to the core of who we are. And, and this some kind of mysterious alchemy that happens when, when we are honest about those things. And when we long for hope, and we long for joy, and we let, let it play out, because God works in a slow, slow way. But in that process, the transformation is happening in the core, and not on the edges of us. So that when it finally rises out, it rises from a place of, of wholeness and not surface level. You know, we're not talking about the person who paints on a happy face to appear to be like, like satisfied in Jesus. Yeah, we're talking about real transformation inside that leaks out.

Joshua Johnson: 36:03

And that's why I love at the end of this sermon on the mount, as he goes, he tells the parable of the wise and foolish builder, it's about hearing the words of Jesus and putting them into practice, that's gonna build your house on the rock, so that when all of this happens, because the storms will come, either your house is going to crash, because you were foolish, and you didn't actually put the words of Jesus in practice, or you're wise, and you actually did and your house is gonna stand when the storms come. And you could actually weather those storms with Jesus, because of the practice of this. And what one of the things that you wrote, as what Gregory Boyle says about the Beatitudes, they're not just a spirituality, it's not it's more about a geography is, how do we place ourselves in the geography of the Beatitudes? And what does that? What does that mean? And what does that look like to place ourselves in, in a place, and not just an A, and I thought of this as a good, good platitude.

Micha Boyett: 37:06

I think the call of a follower of Jesus is to go toward to move toward those who are living in the spaces of the Beatitudes. So, if, if we are following Jesus, then we're following Jesus toward the poor and spirit. We're following Jesus, toward those who are living with injustice. We're following Jesus toward the grieving. And I think that looks different in all of our lives. But I think we know as we recognize who we are, where we are, what we, what we are gifted in, we know what it might look like for us to move towards those who are experiencing poverty, who, who need to receive mercy. Yeah, it's a geography because it's the geography of humanity. And we're invited, just like, just like Jesus invited the people who were sitting in front of him when he gave the sermon. We're inviting people to wholeness.

Joshua Johnson: 38:21

So for us, what does that look like? I know, you talk about that, practically, for what that looked like for you, at your church in San Francisco, while you're on elder boards, and trying to be inclusive of the LGBTQ plus community, that you there are some some practical ways of actually centering those on the margins, right, that you say we, we should do this as a church. How do we, when it's difficult, and it's hard, and there's opposition and people that you know that there's going, it's not always going to go perfectly in every sphere of what you're doing? How do we enter into it and actually enter into the place of going towards those and say, Hey, we, you are loved, you're a child of God. And we're here with you. How can we do that?

Micha Boyett: 39:25

Yeah, the the story that I tell in my chapter on peacemaking is about this season of my life when I was on the board at my church, and we were making a decision to become a church that was affirming to the LGBT t q plus community. And that was the that was the messiest thing I've ever been part of. It was the end as most church pain, it goes as much which most things when the, the church that you love is in turmoil. It is the church is a lot of humans, trying to figure out what it means to love God. And we can come to different conclusions. And to me, my calling in that moment and still was to be an ally, to the queer community, to be part of a church that wasn't afraid to risk how people maybe risk what people thought about the way we were reading scripture. Risk, what, what the assumptions are. And, and to do that, for the sake of those who have been clobbered by the church, the LGBTQ community that has been rejected, kicked out unwanted, has been told that God doesn't love them. And in, in making this change in my church, it wasn't that the people who disagreed with me, were hateful, it was that we were reading scripture in a different way. And but that was choosing to read scripture in a different way is a very painful thing to happen to a community. And, and it was also a gift for me, because I, I got to suffer in a way that that I don't think I would have suffered if I hadn't been leading through that. And, and it gave me a taste of what my LGBTQ siblings have gone through just a little, a little tiny taste, because I know, I don't know what that experience is like, but I experienced a lot of rage. There was a lot of pain, and all that to say that when we are in the church, when we are following Jesus, it's going to be messy, it's always going to be messy. I learned from Professor 20 years ago, that when we read the Bible, we put on Jesus glasses, and we read it through the lens of Jesus. And in that transformed me, and also it made life a lot messier. In and that's a gift that's a gift, there's, there's still a lot of pain that that exists from that falling apart of my church community. But also, I say falling apart. Also that church community is a beautiful, vibrant thing that looks really different now. And that is beautiful, too. And so I think Jesus does a lot of things that are messy and beautiful, painful and joyful, all the things at once.

Joshua Johnson: 43:09

I mean, that's helpful for us to figure out what, like, we want to find a way to be faithfully like Jesus to embody Jesus, in all the way to what does it look like, you know, for me, because I have a lot of Arab Muslim friends like my, my centering, especially in America, is for the Arab Muslims and immigrants, refugees to be seen and known and sad that they are beloved children of God, as well. Because we all we all have some sort of enemies for some reason. And so whether it be immigrants, whether it be LGBT, q plus people, whether it be ace that has Down syndrome, what, how to we have the the eyes of Jesus in those situations and circumstances. And I think that, that you're right, it is the belovedness of all of us. And every human that has existed, that our beloved children of God, that will change the way that we see humanity all around us. And it'll change the way we interact in the world. And we love and we love others. Well, there's, there's something to say, you know, at the end, you know, for me, the Beatitudes themselves have been a good posture. I have come into a place of we're thinking about the things that we do for Jesus as like Jesus has called us to obey His commands, so we're doing things for him. The Beatitudes for me, helped me like this is the posture of who I am in the midst of that. Yeah, but I have limits and long longings and I could have this posture so I could walk into it. What it looks like to follow Jesus. Because this posture, I think, marks Cantor, it really helped me in that as like, yes, he helped me with the postures that I could take with the Beatitudes, the end of your book, I want to read something to you like, man, I've highlighted a lot in your buttons. To think that's one of the ads we who follow Jesus may never transform the whole story of the world into one in which all justice is restorative. And all people have access to health, community and joy. But we could follow Jesus towards that end, living with the hope that all things will be made new. How do we long for hope, when we know that we're only going to get partial justice, here on this earth,

Micha Boyett: 45:52

I think we, as a culture, live in a time where we have seen so much change so quickly in terms of technology, and the way the way humans exist with each other. That are, we who are alive right now, don't move according to natural time. Like we, we live in an alternative time, we live in a time machine, that is just speeding and speeding and speeding and speeding. And one of the reasons I love the, like reading the ancients reading the reading what the saints have written over the past 2000 years is that I'm, I'm allowed to see faith, from the perspective of someone who lived in a really different world than I live in. And one of the things that we see is this, just this slower way of being in the world. And I think that if we were in the natural world more, if we paid attention to the way that I'm thinking right now of the daffodils that are popping up in my backyard, the way that plants grow and bloom and, and go back to the earth, and their seeds, like, you know, go back into the ground and the next thing comes up. And it's a regenerative restorative world, in the midst of death and pain, some of what it means to believe that God is making all things new and will be making all things new, is to live in that slower perspective, to step back from the way that that we exist with our technology and speed and our to do lists and receive that the work of God is happening and the work of God will keep happening. And we will be here for a bit. And we are invited to our tasks at the moment, were invited to long for justice, were invited to show mercy were invited to to be misunderstood for doing good. And because we're because we were not going to be here that long. We can kind of let go of having to see everything change all at once. But believe that it's changing and it will. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 48:26

that's good. My wife has been quoting this. There's a quote from Marshall McLuhan back in the 80s. She's been quoting this to me a lot lately. He says the greatest discovery of the 21st century will be the discovery that man was not meant to live at the speed of light. And, and I think, yeah, I think he's right. This is not the way that we're meant to live. We're, we're meant to go, as you said, from, from the edges into the core of who we are, and that's this low, transformative work into the image and likeness of Jesus over over time. That these limits these longings that we have will start to shape us and form us into what it looks like to follow Jesus, what it looks like to be like Jesus to embody him in the world that these are things that are good for us. Is there a limit in your life that you thank God for now?

Micha Boyett: 49:25

I mean, the first thing that comes to mind with my limits, maybe I'm learning to thank God for I had for gosh, four years ago, 2019 asa and I fell down the stairs together. Outside of his school, he ran at me for a hug, and I went back and I was able to save his little head, but my head took it and I had about six to nine months of trying to recover from this concussion and then I would bang my head again. It was like I had no spatial awareness. And, and it has turned into pretty terrible chronic migraines. And I spend a lot of my life managing that, you know, taking preventative medications going to whichever helpful, like doctor is going to help next. And that has been a limit that I'm still trying to make peace with. I, I ended up in bed, more than I want to be in bed, I ended up being the mom who was like, Mom can help the sumo honey Mama's has to stay better I'm, and still, when I am laying in my bed and pain. Every once in a while, I get this spark of this as a gift. And I'm learning how to rest after a lifetime of thinking that I needed to learn how to rest. And you know, sometimes we are forced into it. And that doesn't mean it's easy. It doesn't mean it's fun. It doesn't mean it's even great for my family. But I am learning something. And I think even if I continue to have this, kind of have these kinds of migraines and spend time in my bed for the rest of my life. I think I'll get there as being grateful. Do you think I will?

Joshua Johnson: 51:31

Yeah. Hope so. We long for that place of gratefulness. Yeah. Miko, what's one hope you have your readers that people that read your book,

Micha Boyett: 51:43

I hope that my readers who, you know, I hope they come to this, whether they connect with disability or connect with parenting or connect with the things that I'm talking about that they would find in the Beatitudes, something fresh and alive, that that they haven't found in their faith. So far, I really want people to ask the question of what it means to be whole, and what it means to be moving towards wholeness. And I think that's my hope that, that that question is being asked, and that question is leading to other questions. It is not so complicated. And even as it is really mysterious,

Joshua Johnson: 52:31

I have a couple quick questions. If you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give? I

Micha Boyett: 52:37

would tell my 21 year old self that God isn't mad at her that she is deeply loved. And there's nothing more that she has to do to earn that love.

Joshua Johnson: 52:52

Beautiful, beautiful. We all need to hear that. So he'll need to hear that. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, Greg recommend.

Micha Boyett: 53:04

Oh, boy, what have I been reading? I just finished reading Sarah besties filled notes in the wilderness, which is wonderful. Yes, I also, I just picked up Savannah Guthrie's new book on faith. And I have been pretty intrigued by it. It's called mostly what God does. Things I've been watching. i This is this is not very exciting. But my family is watching old survivor to get out survivor episodes together. So we just we've jumped around. But this is our fourth or fifth season that we're watching. But we just got to season two. So very exciting.

Joshua Johnson: 53:50

Nice. Isn't it great to have something to watch as a family and walk through them. That's it's kind of fun and

Micha Boyett: 53:56

people to yell out from the couch. Just yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 54:00

That's good. Well, Sarah besties book Field Notes for the wilderness. Fantastic. I love it. It is incredible. So that's really good. And you know, I've heard many good things about Savannah Guthrie's books out, I really would be interested in checking that out as well. Mike, thank you so much for this conversation. Where can people find your book? How can people get it and where would you like to point people to?

Micha Boyett: 54:28

Yeah, you can find blessed or the rest of us really at any bookseller, Amazon, Barnes and Noble that, I love to go to that. What is it bookshop.com Where you can support independent bookstores. So yes, I would, I would love for people to pick it up. And I think that right now Baker book house is having 40% off of my book. So if you're in that's my publisher, if you want to go to Baker book house and see if you can grab it for on the cheap. And in terms of finding me, I'm on Instagram at mica boy yet. I also have an Instagram that is an advocacy account where we talk about Down syndrome and autism. And that's with my son, ace, ace faces my friend. You can also find me at the lucky few podcast where we I, along with Heather, Avis and Mercedes, Laura have a podcast about Down syndrome advocacy. And then I have a substack called the slow way. That is spiritual practices

Joshua Johnson: 55:40

is beautiful. Oh my god, thank you so much for this conversation. Fantastic. I really want people to enter into living within their limits their longings for what God can do here on Earth, and then look at the Beatitudes as our geography as our place that we can enter into that there is a posture that we could take that we could not just follow the ways of Jesus, but then we could also do what Jesus said and center, the marginalized and get things back to the core of who we are to go through that slow transformation process so that we could see all people as beloved children of God and see their humanity no matter what, whether it be the disabled, or the marginalized in other areas. So thank you mica for this conversation was fantastic. I really enjoyed it.

Micha Boyett: 56:35

I'm delighted we could have it. Thank you, Joshua. That's fun.