Ep. 174 Michael Wear - What Does Spiritual Formation Have to do With Politics?
Apr 12, 2024Season 1Episode 174
Joshua Johnson / Michael Wear
What does spiritual formation have to do with our political engagement? Well, if we are followers of Jesus, it’s has a lot to do with it. In this episode, Michael Wear discusses how Dallas Willard's work influenced his view that Christians should approach politics as a way to love God and love their neighbor through civic involvement. We talk about different approaches to political engagement, the role of the church, and stories like Ruby Bridges that demonstrate living out one's faith even in challenging political contexts. Michael hopes that Christians will be empowered to steward their influence in politics in a way that is motivated by spiritual virtues like gentleness and is coherent with their broader discipleship and not just enter into a competition with an antagonizing spirit. So join us as we enter into an all of life spiritual formation into the image and likeness of Jesus, so that our political life looks more like Him and less like an antagonizing sport.
Micheal Wear is founder, president, and CEO of the Center for Christianity and Public Life, a nonpartisan, nonprofit institution based in the nation's capital with the mission to contend for the credibility of Christian resources in public life, for the public good. He has served as a trusted resource and advisor for a range of civic leaders on matters of faith and public life for the last fifteen years, including as a White House and presidential campaign staffer. Wear previously led Public Square Strategies, a consulting firm he founded that helps religious organizations, political organizations, businesses and others effectively navigate the rapidly changing American religious and political landscape. He is the author of "The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life," which argues that the kind of people we are has much to do with the kind of politics and public life we will have.
What does spiritual formation have to do with our political engagement? Well, if we are followers of Jesus, it’s has a lot to do with it. In this episode, Michael Wear discusses how Dallas Willard's work influenced his view that Christians should approach politics as a way to love God and love their neighbor through civic involvement. We talk about different approaches to political engagement, the role of the church, and stories like Ruby Bridges that demonstrate living out one's faith even in challenging political contexts. Michael hopes that Christians will be empowered to steward their influence in politics in a way that is motivated by spiritual virtues like gentleness and is coherent with their broader discipleship and not just enter into a competition with an antagonizing spirit. So join us as we enter into an all of life spiritual formation into the image and likeness of Jesus, so that our political life looks more like Him and less like an antagonizing sport.
Micheal Wear is founder, president, and CEO of the Center for Christianity and Public Life, a nonpartisan, nonprofit institution based in the nation's capital with the mission to contend for the credibility of Christian resources in public life, for the public good. He has served as a trusted resource and advisor for a range of civic leaders on matters of faith and public life for the last fifteen years, including as a White House and presidential campaign staffer. Wear previously led Public Square Strategies, a consulting firm he founded that helps religious organizations, political organizations, businesses and others effectively navigate the rapidly changing American religious and political landscape. He is the author of "The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life," which argues that the kind of people we are has much to do with the kind of politics and public life we will have.
Should politics gets treated as this sort of area of life that sort of cordon cordoned off from God quarantined from God. And in some ways, it's, in some ways people treat it as if it's the only real thing, sort of, what am I going to do if my side loses politically, I need to I need to do whatever I can to secure my political objectives. You know, that, that that's really the real thing. And then I'll get back to trying to be spiritual and all these things, but but it's really important that we don't lose politically. And so anything can sort of be justified in service of that, in another way. People treat politics like it's not real at all. But what I argue in the book is that there is no political you. There's just you. If you are the kind of person who will lie in a political argument to get your way. You are that kind of person.
Joshua Johnson:
Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. Thank you so much. You know it also would help us out. share this podcast with your friends, your family and your network. Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Caitlin chests, Sky chottani and Andrew Whitehead. You can go back and listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Michael ware. Michael ware is founder president and CEO for the Center for Christianity and public life, a nonpartisan, nonprofit institution based in the nation's capital with a mission to contend for the credibility of Christian resources in public life for the public good. He has served as a trusted resource and advisor for a range of civic leaders on matters of faith and public life. For the last 15 years, including as a White House and presidential campaign staffer were previously led the public square strategies a consulting firm he founded that helps religious organizations, political organizations, businesses and others effectively navigate the rapidly changing American religious and political landscape. He's the author of the spirit of our politics, spiritual formation, and the renovation of public life, which are used at the kind of people we are as much to do with the kind of politics and public life we will have. So what does spiritual formation have to do with our political engagement? Well, if we are followers of Jesus has a lot to do with it. In this episode, Michael ware discusses how Dallas Willards work influenced his view that Christians should approach politics as a way to love God and love their neighbor through civic involvement. We talked about different approaches to political engagement, the role of the church and stories like Ruby Bridges that demonstrate living out one's faith even in challenging political contexts. Michael hopes that Christians will be empowered to steward their influence in politics in a way that is motivated by spiritual virtues like gentleness, and as coherent with their broader discipleship, and not just enter into a competition with an antagonizing spirit. So, join us as we enter into an all of life, spiritual formation into the image and likeness of Jesus so that our political life looks more like him, and less like in antagonizing sports, here is my conversation with Michael ware. Michael, welcome to shifting culture. Really excited to have you on thank you so much for joining me.
Michael Wear:
So good to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
Joshua Johnson:
Yeah, I'd love you know, as you're writing the spirit of our politics, you have your new nonprofits, you're walking into this new election cycle here and 2020 fours, we're talking about spiritual formation politics. I want to know where spiritual formation and politics is intersected within your own life. And what was that like for you? So
Michael Wear:
I mean, just as a bit of background, I became a Christian when I was 15 after reading Romans and went to DC to the vocational question of my life as Ben, what's It means to be faithful in and with public things that led me to DC ended up working in, in a campaign and then the White House. And when I got the White House shop, I thought this is gonna be, this is gonna be a disaster for my spiritual life, because I was going to be working 16 hour days, yes, amazing. And it actually turned out to be a time of tremendous flourishing for a number of reasons. One, the structure around my days, and the time constraints and the fact that, you know, I knew if I wasn't getting scripture in on the metro ride into the office, like it was not going to happen, it wasn't sort of like college where, well, I have a three hour gap between classes, you know, this afternoon, you know, like, there, there was no gap in my schedule later in the day. And so I probably read more Scripture than I had, at any point in my life up to that point, when I was at the White House. The other thing was, I had the opportunity to work in something called the Office of faith based and Neighborhood Partnerships, which meant that I was working every day with pastors, nonprofits that were serving those in need. And I don't think I've been ever been prayed for as much as the those those three and a half years in the White House. And so, you know, prayer, scripture reading, these things do not amounts to spiritual formation, they are practices that God can use for spiritual formation, which refers refers to the process by which the inner process by which our character, our will takes on a specific kind of shape. And Christian spiritual formation is entirely directed and focused on Jesus. And, you know, I've seen I've seen that in in my own life. And to my surprise, it was sort of when I was most in the thick of things, that that, that it was a time of tremendous formation for me.
Joshua Johnson:
Where did Dallas Willard come into the picture? For you? You know, this whole book is based on Willard Yan, you know, through the lens of what he has written. So, how did you get connected with with Dallas Willards writing? And how did that shape your thinking,
Michael Wear:
someone sent a copy of the Divine conspiracy to my office, pretty soon after I started at the White House. And I thought, this is a mean trick, who has time to read this 300 Page dance? You
Joshua Johnson:
know, that's, that's it's not to get through, but it's so good.
Michael Wear:
The author, the about the author was like, you know, he was a, you know, taught philosophy at University of Southern California, like, who has, and thankfully, my pastor back home and buffalo, who, you know, wasn't a big sort of public writer or anything. He happened to post something, recommending this book, and I thought, well, if it got sent to me by someone I respected and my pastor back home was telling me I should read it, I should probably pick this up. And it was like a second spiritual awakening in my life. So So just as context for for your listeners, as I sort of alluded to, or mentioned, you know, Willard was, so he passed about a decade ago, he taught philosophy at the University of Southern California for almost 50 years. At for a time, he was chair of the philosophy department, he also served at various points during his life as a pastor, author of many books, and and a Christian teacher. Yeah, there's so much that could be could be said, but my own personal life and trajectory has been profoundly impacted by his work and it his approach to the teachings of Jesus and the way that he opens up scripture. And then obviously, in this book is a testament to this as well as, as really impacted my my perspective on politics in public life and public questions. And so the book is, we do not hide the ball in the book, it's very clear. Role Willard plays out from his idea of Gospels of sin management and the disappearance of moral knowledge into his conception of spiritual formation. This book is in large part, an application of Willards ideas As in the political and realm of public life, I would say readers don't have to be familiar with Willard in order to read the book, though I certainly hope my book will lead will lead people to read Willard. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson:
I think it'd be be great to go down that path. And one of the things that he does and I think, was shaped me for a long time as his, you know, curriculum for Christ's likeness and figuring out what does it look like to, to actually have things in your life to look more like Jesus, I with Christians that I know, when it comes to engaging in politics, there's really a few different ways that that Christians, I know, engage, one is almost Dominionism, like, we want to control politics so that we could have the power to enact whatever we want to get things done. So, you know, at the beginning, maybe there maybe they think what they have is good, so to help everybody, but it's really about, you know, taking control and power. Another way a Christians really engage politics is not to engage politics, because it looks so nasty and horrible, I don't want to get involved. And then I know some Christians who really are trying to be faithful to Jesus and say, what does it look like to follow Jesus being engaged in a civic life? And primarily, what they do is, is local civic engagement where we could actually have something happen. You know, I got my master's in social and civic entrepreneurship. And, you know, for me, I the social aspect was like, this seems easier for me. So I'm, you know, I directed a nonprofit, I'm engaged in trying to help impact the worlds and positive ways. But it was really harder for me to see how do I do that in the political sphere? So in that, what is it a faithful way to follow Jesus and engage in politics? The
Michael Wear:
more specific you get, I think the, the less that we should say with short of invoking faithfulness, as, as as synonymous with a particular approach. In the book, I advance political engagement that is done in the spirit of loving service. I believe Christians should approach politics as an essential forum in which they can love their neighbors will their good. And I think that could that could take shape in a whole number of ways. And I think different people have different sort of callings, what I what I will say is that, if you are a citizen in America, or in a in a Democratic Representative system of government, you do not choose to have political influence you already habits. And so the decision to make is how to steward the influence that you have already been given. Discipleship is about learning from Jesus, how he would live your life if he was you. And Willard talks about this idea that Willards definition of of Kingdom is the range of your effective will. So God's kingdom is the range of his effective well, where what he wants done is done. But Willard says, we all have our own sort of little kingdom, so to speak, where that represent the range of our effective will, where will we mark down his time, and politics is one of those areas where that is within the range of our effective will. And so we want to, we want to steward that in a way that is consistent with the broader calling that God has on our life to love God and love our neighbor. I think politics is really tricky for folks, but in ways that could be instructive and actually could be really contributed to, again, the the broader life that we're living with God, one of the tricky aspects of politics is that it is mediated and contingent. And you have so little control over the outcomes of politics, it can be sometimes impossible to know if what you put in is actually making a difference. And even if it does, it's can be very difficult to take credit for it because it's not it's not, it's not evident, often that it was it was your input that made the difference. These can be very difficult things. They can also be really instructive. If we actually should be more aware of how little control we have over outcomes in other areas of our life, and I think there's great danger in a spirituality have outcomes. And so politics can be actually a really can be a training ground for a formation that that sort of trains us off the spot for other areas of our life. But maybe I'll stop there. Once you say Willard I get sent off in about five directions. And all that, but yeah,
Joshua Johnson:
I love it. But you know, one of the things you said in your book when you're talking about loving service is Willard is talking about. He's talking about apologetics. The Ministry of apologetics said it has become, you know, intellectual debates and arguments, conducted often with an arrogant antagonizing spirit. And it seems like that's what politics is for us now. Right, is the apologetics arm of the church now is that the apologetics of politics? All we're doing is intellectual debate argument antagonizing spirit, is there a possibility of engaging with the fruit of the Spirit? Can we have the fruit of the Spirit and engage well, and I love you you go. I mean, you have some opposition's in that and arguments against actually engaging with the fruit of the spirit within that chapter. How can what are the arguments against it? And then how? Why is the fruit of the Spirit so important for us to engage in civil discourse and our politics?
Michael Wear:
You know, the the common arguments in the book I focus on in this chapter, I focus on gentleness, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I think that this applies more more more broadly. And in other chapters, I speak more broadly. But, you know, there are things like, we need anger, we need fear. We need certainty. We need vulgarity to can we have a truly democratic politics without without vulgarity? That is a question that's earnestly asked. These days. I think people have been surprised, you know, the book has been out for six, seven weeks, I think some people have been surprised to pick up the book to read it and find pretty quickly that it's a spiritual formation book. And and the connection, I hope is one of the connections I hope is made for folks, is that if you aren't able to answer these questions in politics, there are other areas of your life in which you're not able to answer these questions, and which you're not answering these questions. So politics gets treated as this sort of area of life that sort of cordoned cordoned off from God quarantined from God. And in some ways, it's, in some ways people treat it as if it's the only real thing, sort of, what am I going to do if my side loses politically, I need to I need to do whatever I can to secure my political objectives, you know, that, that that's really the real thing. And then I'll get back to trying to be spiritual and all these things, but but it's really important that we don't lose politically. And so anything can sort of be justified in service of that, in another way. People treat politics like it's not real at all. But what I argue in the book is that there is no political you, there's just you, if you are the kind of person who will lie in a political argument to get your way, you are that kind of person, the logic affects the whole of your life. So this is just really important to consider. And I, one of the connections I'm hoping people will make in this book is to realize that, oh, some of the reasons why I think I need anger in politics, or why I need to sort of skirt the rules in politics. I run a business I, I wonder if there are times in my life where I think that dishonesty is required to run a successful business. I wonder if in my relationships, to seat is something that I think is just required, if I'm going to live this life that I have. And what I just argue in the book, particularly certainly there are challenges. It is not a strategy for short term political success. So it's very important. And again, I'm excited about this in the book. It's not, oh, perform kindness in politics so that you will get political credit and you will, you'll be a more persuasive force. Know that this is by living the life that putting on the things of Christ. And that is the objective of our of our life. Now, I think because of the nature of the kingdom because of who God is, I think doing that will bless our politics in a whole number of ways. It may not look like our candidate winning an election or winning Hillary political argument. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson:
I think this, this example might might help some people to get away from politics and bringing it into a place where people are passionate about. So you're, you're a fan of, of the blue team, the Buffalo Bills. I live in Kansas City. So I'm a fan of the red team with the Kansas City Chiefs. Yeah, we've we've had some some really contentious games together, right? My team doesn't like your team, your team doesn't like my team, we want to beat you. And so this is the actually same thing right now that we're looking at in the political arena, right? Blue versus red. We want we our team, we want to win. How can I engage with you as a, as a fan of the team that I want to beat? How can we actually engage civically, with good discourse, and actually have a good, good spirits about it? But in a way that does not devolve into to anger? And you know, and antagonizing spirit. Yeah, you know,
Michael Wear:
I mean, interesting. There are a lot of like, theological work on sports, actually. And I don't have super developed views. I wouldn't want to like, I wouldn't want to, you know, there's just kind of my thoughts that I could revise, you know, after I ate lunch, you know, like, just depending, you know, I actually think sports could serve as an outlet for a pretty right tribalism in sports is not a bug. It's, it's the feature that and it's really the whole the whole enterprise, you know, like it. And there are a lot of like, theories about the ways that sports have functioned to decrease tribalism and other areas of life, sort of the people are able to sort of channel you know, I've actually, you know, I think, yeah, I think it's an interesting question. Here's what I, here's what I would say. So here's, here's what I'm careful about, which is, have you ever been in a tight game, and the star player on another team gets injured, I've ever been in a tight, tight game and found yourself hoping that the player aren't loud as another team gets injured, there is an orientation of the heart to will that my team does, does does well wins the game. Implicit in that, is that the other team is going to lose like someone has to someone has to lose this right. But But imagine, like, how distorted we'd feel the heart of someone is if they aren't the fan of any team, but their motivation is just seeing one team lose and lose in the worst, most destructive, you know, fashion possible. There is no positive motivation there. They're just in it to see harm done, that would run against the nature of sports, right? So you could argue, the tribalism and even an oppositional lism sort of the idea that when I'm watching a football game, I don't want to draw, I don't want to I don't want everyone to get a trophy, I want my team to get the trophy. Like that's built into it. But But if if, if you were watching sports, for the, for the thrill of seeing the dreams of some other team and really, you know, destroyed, there'll be something off about that. Now, the sad thing is, I talk in the book about this, this idea of political sectarianism, which is this framework for thinking about polarization, political sectarianism. The social scientists, who developed the concept said, is, is made up of three ingredients, the tendency of aversion, which is the tendency to dislike or distrust, opposing partisan the tendency of othering. And then the tendency of misplaced moralization, which is to elevate political disagreement to the area, to the level of iniquity, sin, good and evil, purely. One of the things that political sectarianism does, it can shift you so that you are no longer pursuing a vision of the good. You are so acting in reaction and antagonism towards your political opponents, that the social scientists say this is developed in such a way where people will refuse to help everyone because they don't want to help the other side so Bill reject their own good just to see the other side their political opponents be inflicted some some harm. That is like not being a fan of any team, but watching the New York Jets just to make sure and just to route that their quarterback gets injured and, and, and they get negative yards in the game, even though you really don't care who wins, you just want the jets to lose. We have a politics right now where a lot of people are motivated just by seeing the people they don't like lose without any. Any any real care for who holds up the Lombardi trophy.
Joshua Johnson:
Exactly, exactly. That's good. I just I thought that would be be something to get people out of there. They're traveling tribalistic political mindset, which they hold on to I think even harder than they do with their sports teams, to say, you know, there is a there is a way forward, even when you do have an affiliation with somebody that you say, I really like, a lot of their policies, and I want to stand with them. And so that's helpful. You know, one of the things that happened a lot in 2020, as you know, and 2016, but 2020, especially is that, you know, churches themselves, a lot of people left because of political ideology, more than community, KINGDOM OF GOD type of, of stuff that happened, you know, a little in our church, it happened I was at a I was teaching at a church just last week in Seattle. And they were already talking politics, because 2020 was so contentious that a lot of people laughed that they're trying to say we're going to talk about the Kingdom of God, Jesus. Yep. How do churches, especially in America, this year, start to deal with formation issues, really where their congregants in the middle of politics? It's a tricky, it's, it's a hard thing to do. So how do we how do we do that? Well, yep.
Michael Wear:
So I read a chapter in the book directed specifically to pastors and parents, and offer offer practical advice there. We need to rightly situate politics as within an under the gospel, as opposed to above it, or outside and irrelevant to it. I think that there are positive things that can be done. When the spotlight is on like it is now with the presidential election looming, it's not as as hot yet, it will get there soon enough. And include recommendations and just sort of, you know, I find, when it comes to politics, we can put too much pressure on the sermon and not distribute the responsibility throughout the service. But then also, the other both, you know, after church sort of classes, Sunday school kind of classes, but also the other six days of the week, and what the church is, what the life of the church looks like, looks like they're about, but I find, for instance, the practice of praying by name for a civic leaders, during prayers of people or however sort of your church functions, is it is a deeply formative, formative thing and not and not that this is important. It's not a it's not a prayer that they they might vote a particular way on. On a bill or that no, this is this is I think that there are some there's some value in a sermon on politics or a series on politics. But I think that amounts to triage when what is and sometimes triage is necessary. But I think the more we can't constantly be reacting to our politics. And that is my concern for the for the church right now that we are just stuck in this cycle of reacting to politics, when it imposes itself on our imagination, and then being so relieved when sort of the election is over or that that we we go well, thank goodness, I'll just be, you know, we have another three years before we have to worry about that again. The problem is that you need to build up the muscles and the expectations of people so that when they have Christians in our churches, so that when they hear tea Chane when, when when politics is this is, is sort of in discussion. They know that it's the gospel that is the subject. But if we're only talking about politics in the moment of sort of crisis, then I think people's guards go up somewhat like, understandably that, okay, Pastor never talks about this issue or never talks about politics, he must have, he must have a political opinion he wants to get across. And so NIH. So the center for Christianity and public life organization I run, we believe that what is needed is something not all that dissimilar to and is is actually deeply, deeply connected to the faith and work movement. That that, you know, in the same way that we came to understand, as, as Christian leaders, that for all of the general teaching, we were doing, people were not connecting the general teaching to their work life, they just didn't see what God had to do with their professional lives. And so we preach sermons on it, we wrote books, we created institutions center for faith and work institutes for faith and work to explicitly connect the dots, not to teach accounting practices, you know, not not to teach people the real estate business, but to teach people how that the general principles and teachings of Scripture, what what God wanted from them in their work life. And I think a similar long term institutional move in the political and public life space is necessary for the sake of discipleship.
Joshua Johnson:
I think that's really good. You know, when I was getting my masters 1011 years ago, taking a theology of work course, and for my masters was a novel ideas like this is brand new to think about how all of our formation, how Jesus actually impacts our work life. And that was just 10 years ago. And that was, it was new, and things have shifted quickly. Now. I think a lot of people think that 10 years is not quick, but it really is in the grand scheme of things that if we can start to engage this way, and have our spiritual formation, tied up with our political life as well, that is actually all of life stuff is not just for one or my our doctrinal issues that we can assent to is actually all of life formation. We can move the needle within 10 years, which is actually not a a heavy lift. Yeah. And so it can happen, just like you said, Isn't that faith in workplace? Yeah,
Michael Wear:
no, I think so. It and I think it's necessary, again, not for, you know, our politics is suffering from a lack of Christian resources. That is true. That's a real problem. In many ways, and frankly, like the concern that's that's both concerns are deeper to my heart, but the concern that's deeper to my heart, and close closer to my heart, discipleship is made incoherence. If there are aspects of our lives in which we say, it does not apply. We are building in an incoherence into our lives that does not stay quarantined. It does affect the, the whole of our lives. And I think, pastors, I think we're all sure it is coming to growing awareness of this. And so the question is, what are we going to do about it? One more difficult things that Willard ever taught that, in my view, is, you know, he, he's talking about the passage, the scene in the gospels, where Jesus is asleep on the boat, and the storm comes. And, you know, the disciples are, you know, kind of freaking out, hit head head, and Jesus comes calm storm, but he then calls them little fates. And I think we can often read that passage as man Jesus really was disappointed in them, you know, he really laid laid into them, like what dopes Jesus has to be around. Willard says, No, Jesus wasn't rebuking them, just for doubts that they had that Jesus would come the storm. No, Jesus was telling them that life with him is such that even if the boat goes down, they are in a fundamental sense, okay? That they're, they're safe in the kingdom of God. And that is a, that is a challenge. It is also a, a totalizing vision that we could take with us into all of life, including politics. The question is just like, do we want to take it there? Can we? Can we operate in politics in a joyful way? And Willard define joy as a full of a pervasive and constant sense of well being. At my events over the last six, seven years, I've been asking people, how many of you would define our politics as full of a pervasive and constant sense of well being? That it's a laugh line, right. But like, we got to, we got to ask ourselves, like why that is, especially in our own heart, you know, why is it that that that is a place in which we find the idea of joy, to be anathema?
Joshua Johnson:
I think one of the good examples that you give of how formation could help in our our civic life, and in politics is, you know, of a young girl for Ruby Bridges. Can you tell tell us her story and why why that's a good example for us as we move forward in formation and politics.
Michael Wear:
So Ruby Bridges, at the age of six years old, was put in the position of integrating her school in Louisiana. And so this was following after Brown versus Board, the Supreme Court's decision, and Ruby eventually had to be escorted by federal marshals to school every day, often through crowds of protesters that would spit at the six year old girl, there's a report, one protester was holding up a like wooden, like a model of a coffin with a little black girl inside of it. And Ruby went every day for months and months. And a teacher recognize or a teacher reported to this, the psychologist Robert Coles, who was so in awe of what Ruby was doing, he went to Louisiana to try and study her. And he heard from a teacher that Ruby mentioned sort of in an aside, the as she was walking through the crowds, she she was praying for the protesters. And she prayed for them every night. And I go through the book, Ruby had a professor at six years old, had a profound formation, in the teachings of Jesus, and a profound trust, not just in Jesus, but in the testimony of those around her those closest to her, which enabled her to do the thing that many people even now has sort of, you know, talked about, or say little, of course, I do it or of course, I, I'd be on the right side of those debates. Ruby at six years old, was there, she was in the thick, thick of it, and she did it, I would really encourage folks to, even if it's not my book to look into Robert Coles is work on Ruby Ruby Bridges. But in the book, I also talk about how 50 some odd years later, when I was working in the White House, there was a portrait of Ruby, we write as you would walk into the Oval Office, people who were waiting to meet with the President would sometimes sit in the couch directly underneath this, this painting. And there you can look these up. They're all of these incredible reports. And I knew people who told me this personally, it's a terrifying thing to to meet the president and the Oval Office is a profoundly intimidating space. One reason that's oval is when they close the door, it becomes very difficult to remind yourself that there's a way out. And there would be these advocates, people who were charged with responsibility to say something that they thought was important, who would get weak knees. But there are all all of these testimonies of his, you know, grown adults in positions of power and influence, who would look on the painting of Ruby britches and gain courage from that and think of Ruby could do what she did. Certainly I can do what I'm allowed to do in this moment. And so yeah, it's it's a profoundly moving story, that I think we should be careful before we dismiss what Ruby did as just the, as Robert Coles was tempted to do as sort of the delusion shins of a six year old. I think that there is I think it's very difficult to read Ruby's story and not not think about the the scriptural reference to a child like faith, which is not a faith that is naive or a faith that is uneducated. It's about a faith that is trusting. The Dallas Willard said that Jesus is the most presumptuous person to ever live. He presumed upon his father wherever he went. And there's something I have two toddlers, there's something profoundly presumptuous about about a five year old, in my case, and a six year old. And, and so so yeah, I appreciate you asking me about that. That story. It's, it's painful.
Joshua Johnson:
I mean, I've learned so much from my six year olds. And Luke, like he, he has that trusting faith, that when I get scared, and you know, I try not to let him know that I'm scared. But when I get scared, and I, you know, something is wrong. He's like, this is this is what Jesus says. And he's walking in, in the trust and the faith that Jesus is there with us, in the midst of whatever we're going through, you know, his, his grandmother just passed away that lived with us. And he has been a sense of, of comfort that there is trust in Jesus at the nets, even when we're in the midst of of grief, and sorrow. And yeah, no, I think that's right, Michael, if people read your book, The spirit of our politics, which I hope people do, because this is one of the very few books that ties spiritual formation, politics together, which I think is so important, because if we're not being formed into the image and likeness of Jesus, we're being formed into sub mouths. And we want to be formed into the image like this, Jesus, what is your hope for people who read your book? Yet?
Michael Wear:
It may help it I'll just go back to something I said earlier. You know, my, my hope is, is yes, I mean, I think what I write about in the book would be a blessing to our politics, I think, I have a vision. And the Center for Christianity in public life has a vision for a healthier politics, and public life. That is the benefits from a coherent, integrated Christian presence. So I think that's true. But my greatest hope for this book is that it will empower Christians to approach politics in a way that doesn't view Christianity, as useless or as something to be used. But instead, approach politics is something that is within and under the gospel, an area an area of life in which they can steward the limited influence and responsibility that they have, in a way that is motivated of love of God and motivated toward the love of their neighbor. And I think that is important for our politics. More importantly, it's vital for the life that we're living with Jesus. So
Joshua Johnson:
good. Michael, two quick questions here. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give? Oh, goodness,
Michael Wear:
you know, I think I, I would give my 21 year old self advice to have a bit wider vision for opportunities to be present with people even in the midst of the busyness of life and the sort of, you know, when you're 21 it's old, looking up and thinking about the destination, and and knowing what I know now, I would have, I would have, I would have advised my 21 year old self to be a little less anxious about what tomorrow held and what five years from them held and, and take a bit more time for people and relationships and new conversations. Yeah, yeah, I think I think that that would be
Joshua Johnson:
awesome. That's good advice is great. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend
Michael Wear:
Oh, well, I'd be I saw dune two doing two was pretty great. There is a new book coming out by my friend Elizabeth Oldfield fully alive, I believe, is this the the the RADLE and Elizabeth's amazing and the book is, is it's incredible. And so I point i point people to that I also you know, really deeply appreciate the work that John Mark commerce doing and have benefited from. So but yeah, this this new book from Elizabeth Oldfield is going to be really special. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson:
I'm so excited. I'm gonna interview Elizabeth, you know soon for this book. Yeah. And I saw I have it and I've, I just read the the introduction, the very first few pages, started to cry and weep and put it down because I had to read a bunch of other things. I'm so excited to get back to it. It looks incredible. Amazing. So great. And John Mark comer soon incredible things, you know, we do have to practice the way we actually you have to start to look like Jesus and, and your book does a wonderful job to help steward us into what his spiritual formation look like in all of life, so that it could impact our politics and our political life. And that we can start to engage in a way that brings out gentleness and all of the fruits of the Spirit so that we don't have to just have intellectual assent into doctrinal issues. But we can say that our life with Jesus and our faith in Jesus impacts everything that we do, and our political life, and so stop delving into an antagonizing spirit with intellectual debates and arguments, but actually engage politics in a way that looks like Jesus. So thank you so much.