Ep. 176 Ryan George - Finding Healing After Spiritual Abuse

Ryan George grew up in an abusive independent fundamental Baptist church led by his father. In the conversation, Ryan discusses how he eventually left that church and the abuse of his father and started a journey of healing from the trauma of his upbringing. He talks about some of the unhealthy and abusive behaviors he experienced. He also talks about how he eventually found healthy church communities that helped him heal and come to know Jesus in a new way. We talk secure attachments, fear and faith, and adventure. So join us as we wade through destructive behavior and trauma and find our way out towards healthy, faith-filled communities centered on Jesus.

Ryan George is the author of Scared to Life and Word on the Street. He’s the blogger behind Explorience.org. He co-founded and co-leads Dude Group, a spiritual
adventure community in the Blue Ridge Mountains where he lives with his wife,
Crystal, and daughter, Deonnie.

Ryan's Book:
Hurt and Healed by the Church

Ryan's Recommendation:
Will the Circle be Unbroken? by Sean Dietrich

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Living God's Way in an Ungodly World
In a world that makes up its own rules, Christians need to focus on Who rules! The Christ!

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Transcript

Ryan George: 0:00

It felt like we were the nerdy version of church. So like, in school in college, you know, you're not one of the cool kids, we knew we weren't medical kids. But what you start to adapt to is this feeling like but we're better, right? Most fundamentalists will tell you where the purest version of that faith, right and so it's an insecurity that leads to arrogance, which is kind of ironic. But what I find in my life is insecurity and arrogance are two sides of the same coin. And I just flipped back and forth between the two, they compensate for each other. And so you just wrapped more and more and more in it. As far as realizing that it was abuse. I didn't realize I didn't I didn't have that word for that language for till I was out for about 15 years. It wasn't a instantaneous thing. If you read the memoirs from the Duggar girls, or some of these other high profile people were coming out of similar background as me, depending on how many years they've been out of it, you can see how comfortable they are talking about that something was off. So like you knew some things were off, you didn't have a label for it, you didn't have a language for you definitely didn't have a verse for it.

Joshua Johnson: 1:17

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Scot McKnight, Jason Van ruler and Jamie Winship. You can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Ryan George Ryan George is the author of scarce life and word on the street. Ryan's latest book is hurt and healed by the church. He's the blogger behind explorance.org And he co founded and CO leads dude group, a spiritual adventure community in the Blue Ridge Mountains, where he lives with his wife, Crystal and his daughter Diani. Ryan grew up in an abusive, independent fundamental Baptist Church led by his father. In this conversation, Ryan discusses how he eventually left that church and the abuse of his father and he started a journey of healing from the trauma of his upbringing. He talks about some of the unhealthy and abusive behaviors he experienced. He also talks about how he eventually found healthy church communities that helped him heal and come to know Jesus in a new way. We talk secure attachments, fear and faith and adventure. So join us as we wade through destructive behavior and trauma and find our way out towards healthy faith filled communities centered on Jesus. Here's my conversation with Ryan George Ryan, welcome to shifting culture. Really excited to have you. Thanks for joining me. Oh, I'm stoked. I'm looking forward to this. Yeah, it's gonna be good. But before we get into, you know, some fun adventure stuff and and we we go into some reconstruction, we have to actually go into some of your story. So we know where you're starting from. So can you tell me your story growing up with a independent fundamental Baptist preacher as a father? What was that? Like? How was your your growing up? And what was church for you? Oh, wow. That's a big question. I know it's a big one. So my parents were actually Lutheran and Catholic. And then when I was about four years old, they joined this movement within the Baptist faith called the independent fundamental Baptist. And then there's subsets beneath there, there's, it just fractures out from there. And so from about the age of four until I got married, that culture was all I knew I went to an IFP college I went to IFP camps. I was in an IFP church for services a week. My dad was by vocational he got a letter to start a church on an island and Chesapeake base. We spent 12 years there while he tried to get that off the ground. But I was homeschooled and that's not a big surprise. Very, that turned out here on a lot of podcasts, a lot of books I read his high control religion, a lot of superstition if you do this, God would do that.

Ryan George: 4:55

And on top of that, which I think is abusive theology, which is was the original working title, this book, actually, that I'm pitching right now, but the on top of that there was also physical and verbal abuse in my home. Later as we would find out through podcasts and other things that my dad was a serial sexual abuser as well. And so when I got married to missionary kid, and we started to figure out what do we actually believe, as we was the first time I left I ever had a shop for a church, I hate to use that term. But you know, to look around for a church, I live in a city that has over 200 churches. So I mean, it's literally a process of compare and contrast. And and start asking questions, what do I actually believe I was mentored by some really thoughtful, introspective minds to ask me some really good questions at the right point in my life. And so I escaped that cultish behavior and have been on a journey ever since to overcome the shadow of my dad overcome the shadow the face system that I had to actually find the real Jesus, the one that was kept from me for so many years. So

Joshua Johnson: 5:59

what's that like, because you're in the middle of it. And this is all you know, you're swimming in this water where, you know, fish don't realize that they're in water, that a lot of times the culture that we're we're in, we think is, is normal, you think that this is how the world operates and works? What is it like being in the midst of that high controlling religion? And having some spiritual abuse happen? And how do you start to open your eyes to it, saying that this actually isn't Jesus? This isn't the thing that I'm seeking. And this isn't right. How do you how do you get to that spot?

Ryan George: 6:42

So those are two different questions. So what it felt like, it felt like we were the nerdy version of church. So like, in school in college, you know, you're not one of the cool kids, we knew we weren't medical kids. But what you start to adapt to is this feeling like but we're better, right? Most fundamentals will tell you where the purest version of that faith, right. And so it's an insecurity that leads to arrogance, which is kind of ironic. But what I find in my life is insecurity and arrogance are two sides of the same coin. And I just flipped back and forth between the two, they compensate for each other. And so you just wrapped more and more and more in it. As far as realizing that it was abuse, I didn't realize I didn't have that word for that language for it till I was out for about 15 years. It wasn't a instantaneous thing. If you read the memoirs from the Duggar girls, or some of these other high profile, people were coming out of similar background as me, depending on how many years they've been out of it, you can see how comfortable they are talking about that something was off. So like you knew some things were off, he didn't have a label for it, you didn't have a language for you definitely didn't have a verse for it. You know, and so what changed in me was seeing the exact opposite, right to be in faith environments, whether my church or parish church, or whatever, where you go, Oh, that's what that's supposed to look like. Like, that person actually looks like they love Jesus, and like, they're overwhelmed by him on a daily basis. That isn't such contrast, like how they parent their kids, how their kids look at them, right? Or how they treat their wife or how they talk about culture, how they talk about people different than them. You know, I want to be like that person. And then as you talk to him is, and this happened to me so many times, as in like church now, if you were looking at like your, you did what? Like your you guys did what, like, your college guys and girls had separate sidewalks and elevators and staircases, like, just some of the rules we had, like, I wasn't allowed to talk to a girl before 730 In the morning like that. When I went to propose to my wife, my little brother had to come with, Hey, I'm at my grandma's house. I'm at my grandma's house and my brother had to come with. So like, there's just so many guys, what, what in the world did we end they had a Bible verse for everything, right? I'm

Joshua Johnson: 9:01

just now trying to think about people that are in a similar situation that you were. And I think that some people don't realize that they're in that similar situation, is it possible to start to detangle some of these things and realize what is going on. without stepping back and away from I know your story is like you had to get away from it. And you said the Duggar girls as well. And some of the Duggars are like, I have to step away. And then I realized this is what was actually going on. Is there any way that we can start to detangle some of this abuse certain control in the church while we're inside of it,

Ryan George: 9:44

inside of the Big C church? Yes. Inside of the church where this is happening? I don't think so. Because you'll start asking questions and questions aren't allowed. And I was I was physically abused for asking In questions, right, like he just when they didn't have an answer, and when I called him on an answer we like, I remember having these arguments with my dad. And he would just because he couldn't, it's not sustainable to say, this is how Jesus would do it right, like, and so he had to, he had to, quote unquote, man up, he had to be aggressive on that. So I don't know. Now, whether you end up in a church, you know, that has services on Sunday, whether it's a faith community where it's people who believe in Jesus, but have been wounded, and maybe their therapist situation or counseling group or survivor. It can take different forms. And it has for me, my counselor has a saying, I really appreciate that. She said, insecure attachment is healed through secure attachment. Relational wounds, are healed through healthy relationships. And she said, church wounds are healed through healthy church situations. And so I, I fully give grace to people who are ready to come back to what you and I might describe as a church service or a church environment for a while. But I have found, whether it's hiking with people, or traveling with people, or going out to coffee, whatever, that the connection to people who have a healthy spirituality eventually will lead you back to places where more people like that are hanging out.

Joshua Johnson: 11:16

That's one of the big things that we got trained in to work with trauma victims, which we were with Syrian refugees is that one of the first things to do is to create some some good memories. So the first thing that they go back to is not that the trauma, the wounds of the past, they go back to those good memories. And so, you know, we did things like you know, we had pen Jada's for Syrian refugees. So we had Mexican culture in the midst of Syrian culture, you know, we had to go at different parties. We had some groups we did a lot of, you know, Bible studies, Sharon Jesus stories, there's all sorts of storytelling we did and but it was the activities that we did. So that can create new memories. What are some of those things as you talk about secure attachments, and you're talking about a new things to heal the wounds of your past? What are some of the things that you started to engage in so that your, the wounds of your past can become something that you can heal from and move on? Yes,

Ryan George: 12:16

a lot of it for me is outdoor adventures. So my number one spiritual pathway, depending on which framework you use, there's like seven or nine different spiritual pathways, my perimeter one is nature, which I actually didn't get a lot of as a kid. And so my one of my pastors is a trained wilderness guide. And other one is incredible wilderness, Whitewater, kayaker, Ice Climber, you know, all these things. And so going outside and experiencing an environment where instead of pulpit and rows and stuff is just projected at me, and you don't ask questions where we're sitting around a campfire, you know, we're having these road trips, you know, those kinds of things. And the Bible says that I lead now, I think we had guys, four or five, maybe six different churches that comes every Wednesday night, we just sit around a fire, there's no teaching, you know, it's all the egalitarian around the circle. It's those environments where people were Jesus to me, and let me ask questions, or ask me questions. And let me go wrestle. I remember, the first environment where a lot of this started to crack. I just told this guy this Sunday. So this is 18 years ago, this month, I said, you and your wife, were leading our small group. And I've never been in a small group. That was the first time I've ever done that in a church. And I said, you guys were struggling with infertility. And you said out loud, we're having a really hard time believing that God is good, right. And we were within the church walls, you know, and that utter honesty and authenticity just went, Whoa, that's allowed here. Like you're allowed to say those things out loud. And so then some of the other things like some of the things that my dad told me, were secular, that weren't holy, that we shouldn't pursue that I started to do, working with anticipation that Jesus would show up in them. I started to see him way more places than I was told that I can experience God, which makes sense, right? Because if you are a man of God, which is what are called called the pastor, and you you only interact with Jesus at the house of God, he's the one controlling the spigot of how much God you get, right? And so there's, that's where the control comes in. So if you find out, Oh, I don't have to go to that place and that guy to turn on the spigot to get it for myself. Well, then you can start to see Jesus all over the place. And my last book, what I wrote about so I'm an adventure travel guy. I've been all seven continents, both polar circles. I've I found Jesus in a whole bunch of places I never thought he would be. And he's been faithful in that way.

Joshua Johnson: 14:37

As a side note, I think, I don't know if you've read Jesse Crookshanks book, ordinary discipleship, but she was a wilderness guide for many years. Yeah, I read though, and, yeah, so I just think he was a wilderness guide and takes a lot of constant work from outdoors and talks about discipleship. It's rarely go the

Ryan George: 14:54

way that they're trained in our town and other of these long term wilderness guides you Steve go, Okay, you just did something uncomfortable that you didn't know you could do or you didn't think you could do. What's something back home that's uncomfortable, whether it's in your faith, it's a relationship, whatever that now you know that that's an arbitrary line. And so there are so many parallels. I mean, Jesus did the same thing with parables, right? He's walking around it goes, here's a fig tree. Let's talk about that. Okay, here's a whitewater river. Let's talk, you know, and for me, because that's my primary spiritual pathway. I'm, I'm wired for that.

Joshua Johnson: 15:26

Yeah. Now, it's amazing. I love being outside. In nature. I love creation. Growing up in Seattle is the you know, I thought that I thought the whole world looked like that until I'm going up to the edge of a desert and an ugly town. But you know, what I love about your book hurt and heal by by the church. It actually takes the dysfunctions of church and then shows us an a new way. The so what are unsafe churches? And then what are healthy churches look back and you go like every chapter, you're you're into a new, a new health of, of church. And so contrasting, unhealthy, unsafe, unhealthy to healthy as you were starting to, to write some of those things. Was there anything that you started to realize that you were growing up in or even the church experiences that you have now that were unhealthy and unsafe, that you didn't actually realize? Until you started writing? And digging deeper into what this is? That's fascinating,

Ryan George: 16:32

I haven't thought about that. I'm sure there, I'm sure some of the details for sure. how pervasive something is, when I started writing about the silencing of women, I think that's the longest chapter in a book. And I didn't start out for that to be true. But my wife is a gifted disciple, where one of our pastors stepped off of professional pastoring to go into marketplace. And when he, he's still at our church, he serves me on Sundays. But when he left, he said, your wife is the best recycler that we have in this in this community. And it's true. I mean, I there's constant women in our house being counseled to, I see my wife's location checker. She's in a different person's house all day long. She's just, and I went, Oh, not letting my wife do that, which my dad wouldn't have allowed, right. And high control religion that women women don't minister? How much that's connected to abuse? How much guys are men in particular, insecure that women might do ministry better? That was probably one of the ones that was a big aha moment for me. Yeah, there's, there's several those were I knew all of them, because obviously, I outlined it before I started writing. But as I got into it, oh, this is way more pervasive than what I thought it was. It was surprising, and I knew it physically. I've spent so much time in my counselor's office, talking, trying to feel things because for some years, I wouldn't listen to my body. Because my boss told me to run, right. And I wrote a, I wrote a chapter on the war motif, and another chapter on anger, and how everything about the churches I grew up was based in anger, like there was everything and I started quoting a whole bunch of pastors, names out of the books, one of them because the guide certain assuming if I did, but I never realized how much my faith was built on anger, and, and just being taught off all the time. So

Joshua Johnson: 18:29

what does that do? If you we get into this place of anger, and I think even in this political day and age in America that we live in, we're angry, to try and get somebody to to our side and not Jesus, Jesus did something a little bit different. As he interacted with people. He he was angry at times, you know, he flipped some tables at the temple because they were misusing the temple, selling selling things for profit, when this is a place of worship, so how do you how do we wrestle with that and deal with that as we're starting to talk to people and to get away from our our angry positions that we start to try and woo people through anger? Is there a new way? What's a better way, a way that we should enter into?

Ryan George: 19:23

So two answers on that first is anger doesn't woo anybody, but other angry people, right? Like this show that's like everybody's talking about his love his blind show. Nobody comes in there and just goes on tirades and try to attract somebody, like when you're on Tinder, and you get you finally get to date or whatever app Bumble or whatever, I never use the app. I'm not all but you get on a date and you don't show up and just start putting somebody on blast that doesn't. It's not attractive. And so I don't I don't think that I realized definitely, the movement I came out of realized how unattractive it was. But the other part I don't think they realize part two is that that wasn't Jesus's modus operandi. That was his exception, if anything, that the fact that it only happened once. And in the recording of his ministry, he didn't deputize he didn't go, Hey, guys, you guys build some whips to once you flipped some tables, he there was no hey, go do likewise there are other things that Jesus said go and do likewise. Or do is if you've seen me do or whatever, he didn't turn around his disciples like, this is how we do this. This that was the exception to the rule. And it was incredibly meek, because that dude could have just said, gone, and there would be nothing, there'll be no molecules in front of it. And so I actually see that scene as that a lot of the angry people of my youth use as justification for their anger as actually demonstrating the exact opposite like das Jesus, is meekness on display. That's

Joshua Johnson: 20:49

really good to think through that. So what does it look like to enter in meekly into conversation? And with people? How do we do that? Well, asking,

Ryan George: 21:00

asking soft questions. There's a question that we ask all the time of the faith environments that I'm in, you're just like, hey, help me understand that? What's going on inside of you? I'll ask a guy. What have you been praying about this week? Because I usually shows where his anxiety is, right? And if he says, I don't, I couldn't pray this week, but okay. So what's behind that? You know, I think seeking to understand coming and going. So I went on a trip last year, two or two years ago to the Faroe Islands out in the North Atlantic. And the guy was was far from Jesus grew up around ministry seen the dark underbelly of it said, I'm not gonna have a party, and he said on the trip, and I was like, Okay, so what's bringing you live, you know, and eventually, you can get into some really cool conversations. Right? I keep coming back to the word winsome, that Jesus's there were people, every buddy, from every perspective, Jew and Gentile, male and female, rich and poor, religious and not everybody was attracted to Jesus. Why was that? Because no matter how you came to him, he was ready for you and welcoming it before he told the rich young ruler to go sell everything. The Bible tells us, and Jesus must have told His disciples this because this is not something he said out loud. It said Jesus had compassion on it. Like there's this whole, before he told the woman who was caught underneath her adultery goes into more before you that, hey, I don't condemn you. There's this approach ability to to go, Hey, you can say whatever you need to say in front of me, and I'm not going to, I'm not going to judge you for it. Now. I've had guys confessed to molesting their daughter. I did. You know, I've had guys confess to some things in their marriage. There are action steps on that. But but even there are softer ways to do that, too. You know?

Joshua Johnson: 22:44

You said they're softer ways to do that. Okay. i That's, that's curious for me. So if I'm in a situation where somebody is revealing, you know, a, a sin. To me, that is not just a we have to deal with this together, you repent to the Lord. But it's something we actually have to report. And we have to give to the authorities because this is we just have to get you away for a while. It's my that situation. How do you do that? In a softer way, that shows compassion to the person that's in front of you, when it is a vile situation. Yeah,

Ryan George: 23:28

I remember after the guy confessed at a table, I was in a restaurant, the guy confessed to me. I've been pouring into this guy now. We're not friends on Facebook anymore. Like I'm not. We reported it. He went and served his time. There's a registry that he is going to be off for however long our state does that. But I prayed over him. I put my hand on their shoulder and I pray to Him because He knows what's coming next. Right? You go, hey, it took her Ecoli what was true, it took courage to tell us that Andy Stanley has a saying that I really like quote it all the time, is some things are not problems to be managed. There are problems to be solved their tensions to be managed. And there's a tension there going, I forgive us in my family, I forgive my dad, and I pray probably three times a month, Dear God, how we continue to forgive my dad when I feel these emotions come up. But at the same time, would you soften his heart and heal? You know, and while that both of those are true, I also don't I'm not physically around my dad, I do not answer his texts. He's not allowed around my daughter, my wife, you know, so it's, it's not there's no clear cut answers to these.

Joshua Johnson: 24:32

You know, we're right now in Kansas City. You know, there's, you know, IHOP Kansas City dealing with a lot of abuse, sexual abuse of minors, like of you know, Mike pickle, so there's a lot of relief from like, oh my gosh, like, what have I been in? And we have had some people come from IHOP to our church and come in and, and joining and right now they're they're in A lot of pain. There's a lot of you know, it's it's really hard for them to trust a another congregation to trust the church to say, is this going to be okay? Like, I love Jesus, I want to be around people who love Jesus. But I don't know if I can trust the church right now. How so? For people like that, that are coming out of this, these revelations that they didn't quite see. And now everything is really, what are some steps to take in that healing process moving forward? For these groups of people?

Ryan George: 26:17

Yeah, I think one of the first things to do is to acknowledge with them, yes, this is disorienting, you know, did it go? This conflict? Do you feel that is totally reasonable, you don't have to come back to a church building out of guilt. I definitely recommend there go visit a therapist, particularly a Christian therapist trained in either high control religion or abuse, trauma, recovery, whatever, which is what I see. Or who I see. I had this conversation two weeks ago, a friend of mine, she had a bad experience at our church. Right? It wasn't abuse, like how we would define it. But it was a really uncomfortable situation that now every time she walks in the building, it's triggering to her. As like, you need to know like, we love you. We love our church, we love you. But we're okay that you don't feel safe here. Please keep looking for a safe place. I think there's so many deconstruction's podcasts and books, I've read a whole bunch of them in preparation for this press tour and for writing my own book is to go. I think what a lot of people do is they just they keep running and and they never get it fixed. They never go. They never ask their soul the level of questions like, What did i What did I love about being in a faith community? What do I miss about being in faith community? And where can I get that in smaller doses and safe ways? And then work myself back at the point isn't for us all to go to Sunday service, the point of us all is to be connected to Jesus with other people who are connected to Jesus. Some

Joshua Johnson: 27:47

people might say, I can't do it a Sunday morning service. That's the thing that feels very unsafe for me. And triggering, how can people start to find their Jesus community and a community that is safe to move forward? If it isn't a Sunday morning service? What is that? What are communities out in the wild look like? That are like surrounded saying Jesus is our center and we're gonna move forward together as a community? That's healthy?

Ryan George: 28:20

That's an interesting question, because I didn't. This sounds really weird. I didn't go looking for it. It found me. There was one environment in our church that I absolutely loved. And it got shut down because it was dwindling. Numbers don't run numbers. And but the model of it I absolutely loved. And so I just went out, started my own and started writing guys from in my life, just say, Hey, you have Jesus and you have a version of Jesus that I like, we started with three guys. And now there's almost 40 guys in the group text, right? There was a guy going through a hard season, I just said, Hey, I'll tell you, I don't have curriculum. I don't know, I'm not a trainer. I wasn't even in therapy. At this time. I didn't know anything. He was going through a hard time. I was like, let's meet everyone's and I read a chapter of a book from Bob Gough, we'll pray over each other. You know, whatever it is to help you come through yard get you through the week to Sunday. So I just started looking for people one at a time. And now what's funny is, wives will come to me and they'll say, Hey, I've heard about this thing that you guys have gone down at the park on Wednesday nights. Would you be cool with my husband doing or could you reach out to my husband or whatever? So I don't know exactly if there's a prescriptive way to do it. Because we've done it on the download. My wife's the ministry that she started that now as part of our church. They were not they're affiliated with our church when they started but they were a home they pray their home thing. So I don't know that. I would hope no matter what you came out of that Jesus would give you one person that looks real in your life whether that's somebody you meet online, or follow on Instagram or Yeah, I don't That's a really tough question. I feel very blessed because mine fell into my life at the exact moment I needed them and some of them like a year or two before I really needed you know

Joshua Johnson: 30:07

yeah yeah. I think that's one of the things that we're we're wrestling with a little bit within our church is that there's some people have a big desire for that. I think men especially have a desire for for deeper connection with other men but don't actually know how to go about like, reaching out they feel vulnerable, insecure have like a opening up to the place of saying I need somebody now can you meet with me? Can you be with me? And I'm really appreciative of the people that reach out to me and say, Hey, can we meet we talk because it's easier to receive something like that it's hard for somebody to, to make that first move. How, what, as you're hanging out and doing these, this thing with, with all these these men? How do men start to reach across and saying, I need connection? I need help in this place. Let's, let's meet, what are some ways that men can, can do that?

Ryan George: 31:11

Well, let me back up and say one of the things I think we can claim the promise of Jesus, he said, If you seek Me, you will find me if you seek with your own heart. And I think Jesus, the way he designed the church should be he wants people to be in spiritual community, with him and with others. So I think if, if you don't have that one person be praying for it, God will bring that person to you. As far as how to make men comfortable in those environments. One of my mentors gave me a imperative several years ago. He said, give men the gift of going second. And so whenever I'm in an environment, particularly when there's new guys, like guys will come to sit around the fire for a week. And you can see him there looking around, how does this? How does this group work? What's the dynamics here. And so what I tried to do is, whatever level of authenticity I want, those guys to eventually get to, I have to model. So I have to say, I'm struggling in my marriage this week with x, or I've really been wrestling with this truth that Jesus did, or for me, so I never wanted to be a dad, you can read about the book, all the abuse that I had, as a kid, I just didn't want to be a dad, I didn't trust myself. And God, I sick, bless me against my will, I was on a helicopter expedition up in British Columbia, and get back to civilization. There's a text saying, Oh, by the way, young lady sought refuge in your home. Long story short, she's now my daughter. So I went from actively trying not to be a dad, to all of a sudden, I am a dad, you know, to then pursuing adoption. And so just to be real, my guys be like, Hey, guys, you guys know, I had all three versions of the vasectomy, make sure this wouldn't happen. And here I am. And I have a 15 year old African American daughter now like, I'm scared, or I don't know what to do. I've never washed a bra from somebody other than my wife, like, what do you do with this? Right? I don't know if that I got that specific. But just to be like, I, I didn't save to this, I don't have money to buy her a car, I don't have money to put her through college. So the level of authenticity that the person who starts the conversation sets the tone for the circle. And I've seen that in multiple shape environments, not just mine. It's interesting, because therapy doesn't work that way, right? Like your therapist doesn't tell them, they can't tell you so much. But outside of therapy, that has been true of almost every environment where I left, feeling like my heart was seen. And my soul was felt by another man. Another parishioner was, somebody went first. And I've, I've been with grown men crying in an airport in South America, confessing some they never, you know, I've been going through this, and I never told anybody about their job, their marriage, or kids, or whatever it is. So if we give people the gift of going second, and again, if we're looking for it, people are going to be attracted to the people who are authentic like that,

Joshua Johnson: 34:00

you know, for what I see in us as I see somebody who is a learner, somebody that that loves adventure and wants to connect deeply with others. That's pretty difficult when what was modeled for most of your life was the quite the opposite. It is, don't be vulnerable. Be certain, be strong, yell and say this is this is the right way and don't have any insecurities. And if you do hide them, right, how do you how do you move into a new space and learn a totally opposite completely different way of life? What does that transition like to relearn the way you interact in the world?

Ryan George: 34:48

I learned basically what you're saying is the first time in my life, I was controlled by sticks, not carrots, right. And what I've learned is to use my body's biological dopamine reward system. So when I do some scary like, BASE jump or bungee jump or skydive or whatever, I go out on the wings of airplanes while they're doing aerobatic maneuvers, it's one of my fun things to do.

Joshua Johnson: 35:09

The first the how many people say that?

Ryan George: 35:12

There's only 1300 people in the world who've gone to the class. It's amazing. It's incredible. But anyway, I'm scared like crazy people think that I don't that I do those things because I'm not scared. I was like no, no, I'm actually scared of heights like I freak out. I do them though because I am scared because the way our body works with dopamine and all the other adrenaline all the other chemicals we get is the reward is the roughly proportional to how scared we are right? And so it's been the same in my faithful life, right when I've asked a question that I thought was scary, and it was met with grace, and met with kindness and met with. Alright, let's talk about that. Yeah. So the reward for that becomes habit forming. Right. So when I, when I have to have a heart, I hate I nonconfrontational to an end, because the way I grew up, right, and I've seen my wife, Molly, like, sometimes you have to address things with people, and I'm so scared. And it's amazing how many times you go against was softly, all the ways you do it appropriately. You get there, and then you go, and at the end of it, you're closer than when you start. You go, oh, so what happens is there's this reward system. When you say, when you say, I don't know, right? That's a very scary thing to say, in a faith community, or when you say, I'm scared or whatever it is. That when that's met now, that's not always met with what you need, right? That's we're humans. But Jesus has been so faithful to me that so many times when I'm scared, relationally, spiritually, whatever, he's met me there, and that part of it, too, was realizing, oh, so I have to have a lot of faith in my harness for a lot of things that I do. I have to have a lot of faith in the equipment and my pilot, whatever. And Jesus said, The just shall live by faith. That's all throughout the New Testament. Paul said other people said, Well, you can't have faith unless there's a little doubt, or a little fear, or both. So I'm not scared on the wing of an airplane. Unless I don't trust my pilot. I don't trust my equipment. Right? If so, faith, the word faith for me going up meant you're totally sure of things. Now. I am confident in my pilot, he's a former aerobatic Are you still aerobatic pilot, a former like Air Force, fighter, whatever. But it wasn't until I grew comfortable with him that I grew less fearful out on the wing, if that makes sense. And so this idea for faith for me is such a real object lesson because so many times I have to trust. I remember, I was up in your old neck of the woods outside of Seattle, I went to DirtFish Rally school. And it's where you learn how to ride rally dry rally cars, kind of like slider on curves and stuff. And my instructor kept saying you're hitting the brake too early. He's like, I told you not to hit it until I say break. He's like, You don't trust it. I know when to break because we were driving at a concrete barrier. He's like, it's not yet. And he's like, you lost all your momentum to finish this whole big cool thing because you needed to break before I said, break. You have to trust me more than your eyes. And once I learned that, I didn't hit break until he said, Man, I started do some stuff with a car I've never done in my life. Right? It's the same thing. So I have all these object lessons. You go, Oh, God, that's what you mean. And then that transferred, not just spiritually but relationally. To go. When I say the hard thing to a friend. When I confront this, or maybe an awkward encouragement. That's a weird thing. But in guys worlds, there's weird things to encourage other guys. When you say that awkward thing that's maybe not the most alpha male NFL, you know, scratch your chest type of thing. And then it's received with tears or with someone saying, Hey, would you be would you officiate my wedding? Or, you know, would you do whatever counseling or whatever. And so, the rewards that I've learned, my faith system now is built on my rewards. If

Joshua Johnson: 39:00

that's interesting, What's the scariest thing you've ever done? How did you get courage to do it?

Ryan George: 39:04

Become a dad, and I didn't, I came home is there. But even in that, so like, I, I, this isn't the last chapter of the book. As I said, so many things opened up for me and my family. And that's how I see Jesus, I, I always like to talk about God through Jesus, not as God the Father, because fatherhood is scary for me. And I said, But God wanted me to pursue adoption of our daughter, to show me how he pursues our heart. I get more scared doing relational stuff than I do jumping off cliffs or mountains or whatever.

Joshua Johnson: 39:37

Yeah, relational things are, are scary. And walking into those things, it's really difficult to, to open yourself up, especially when you've been in a situation and a life that you have been in, it's hard to open up and but once you continue to see Grace after grace, you see your mat with with loving kindness, and that you could actually then start to move into secure attachment to others, then you're able to safely open up with those people. I think that's really important to be able to do that. You have your reward system, you have adventure. What does it mean for us to have the the adventure of faith? How do we move into our faith as adventure? And not just a box that we have to check to say, I've done my my spiritual thing? What does it look like to have adventure faith?

Ryan George: 40:39

People have asked me like so do you think everybody should go out on the wings of an airplane? I don't have any problem with it. I don't think it's fish for everybody and not my wife, right like, but what I've said to people who asked me that is this but all of us have something in the back of our head that we're scared of. And we need to move towards that one of my buddies gave his life to Christ. Not long after this really weird encounter, he was at our local grocery store. And he was short to pay cash for batteries and he didn't want to use his company credit card cuz then you gotta report into the receipts, whatever else. And some stranger walked out he, to this day, we still don't know this guy is he's never been walked all the way from the front of grocery store, put the amount of change on the belt that he needed to walk away. Before he left. He said, Jesus told me to give you that and just walked away. I was like that dude at the door. Again, we don't know his name. I don't even remember his age. And from the story, got an assignment from Jesus to go put$1.47 or whatever was on the belt and walk away said Jesus loves you. That was probably the weirdest, scariest thing and, and that dude probably also doesn't know that my buddy John gave his life to Jesus. Right? I've been so scared. I was in Portland writing my last book. And I was had this prop put this mat, exact number of large tip on there. On your tab. And right Jesus loves you on the on the receipt. And I struggled for like three minutes. It's in there. Come on. I can't this is Portland. Like I've heard about Portland. This isn't the right kind of weird, you know. But in those Mo, we all have that. A lot of times it's relational. It's to a send a card to that person. And, you know, in our culture, it's not normal for men to send each other cards, call something out and somebody say, Hey, I saw this in you. And I just think it should be affirm. I do it all the time. But it was it still gets weird. Never gets easy. It's I think we all have something. And it's different for each of us. Right? Like there are people who pined to be parents, I mean, they the all this discussion about in vitro fertilization, how much 10s of 1000s of dollars and all the medical procedures to try. And for them, being a parent wasn't courageous at all. Like that's the passion of their heart. For me, that was scarier than doing aerobatics on an airplane out on the wing, right. And so I think we all have something. And if we don't have one on a regular basis, I tell this to people all the time. If God hasn't given me an uncomfortable assignment, while I check in with Jesus to be like, Hey, are we good? Right? Because if the just shall live by faith, I have to keep being put in positions where I need faith to go, Oh, I gotta trust him for this. This is so awkward.

Joshua Johnson: 43:15

Yeah, that's tough to go out. I think one of the things there is the nudging the Holy Spirit, you know, going into probably, you know, from a space, I think, grown up, who probably didn't want to be able to say, Hey, I hear from the Holy Spirit, and be able to do do that, you know, the man of God in the mouths of God gets to do those things and tells you what to think. Right? Because how do you start to hear the Najee and the voice of the Holy Spirit in your everyday life? What does that look like for you? So

Ryan George: 43:48

I don't know if you're familiar with Erwin McManus, the pastor out in Los Angeles, but he has a saying that when you say yes to God, His was comes louder and clearer, louder and clearer. And when you say no, becomes fainter and fainter and fainter. And so I just got afraid that I would, I have to say yes to whatever he puts in front of me so that I don't lose connection to his voice. So the first one, one of the first yeses for me was to go to a church that didn't look like the one I grew up in. I mean, I was, I didn't tell my parents. I didn't tell them like nobody. I didn't even tell my pastor at the time. I was living out in Indiana, and we sneak to this other church on the weekends. That was my first Yes. Right. And then you get other yeses to go. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put myself out there and try a small group thing that I hear about, I'm going to try. And eventually, it's not that they all build and get bigger and bigger. It's just that I don't know for me, the more I say yes, the more assignments I get, if

Joshua Johnson: 44:41

somebody is afraid that they're going to fail. If they say yes, and they move forward, so they're afraid of that. Of that? Yes. Is there anything that you could you could share to help them have courage to move into something even though it may not even work out?

Ryan George: 45:01

Well, I would definitely tell them it may not work out. It doesn't always in my life. I also have Furman peep. This sounds really weird, but I have a friend was like, It's good that you're scared. I remember the first time I told that to somebody. Oh, was it? It was one of the adrenaline things I did. And oh, no, it was me. I remember the first time I bungee jumped. I won't swear on your podcast, but I swore in front of Scott. He goes, How are you doing right now? It's about the jump. It was 439 feet. Well, I'm looking down. I'm scared, bleak. And we're in New Zealand because that's good, mate. The more scared you are, the better the ride is down. And so what I tell people is you're right to be scared. That is a hard conversation to have with your wife. That is an awkward moment with your son. Let's talk about that. What are your prayers? Like? What would you ask Jesus for? I like to turn it into a teaching moment right to go. Alright, so how do we pray about this? What is the Bible? Are there any verses? Are there any things in Jesus example, or in a study works in the red letters that wouldn't speak to this right now? What did Jesus do when it got awkward? And so, yeah, I tend to affirm the fear. And it's easy for me, because in my community around here, I'm known as adventure guy, right like that, oh, that's just fine. But you can have powerful moments when you go, yeah, that's a natural thing to feel right now. And also, Jesus designed our systems to feel this. Like we, he's not one of the phrases I use all the time, Jesus is not pacing the floor of heaven, hoping that you pick the right answer. Like, he's just, he's gonna be with you no matter what. And so you don't have to worry that you're gonna lose Jesus's love that you're gonna lose your faith. Like, I mean, if you're committing a crime, that's one thing, but I mean, most of the decisions that people have in front of you go, just be Jesus in that situation. Figure out what that is. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 46:55

that's good. The first time I went bungee jumping was in New Zealand as well. And, yeah, it was so scary. Like it was the day after I got married. And then I jumped off a bridge, you know, that's fantastic. And then, you know, my wife was there as in Queenstown, so my wife Yeah, and went paragliding. She wouldn't go bungee jumping, but she's like, I'll, I'll jump off a mountain. I'll do that. So we both had gotten paragliding. It's a beautiful spot man. As one of the most beautiful places right at the bottom of the gondola. Yeah, yeah. So gorgeous. So amazing. Man, I want to go back. Now. Yeah, maybe for New Zealand's it's time to go back to New Zealand. Ryan, what's, what's the hope that you have for your readers reading this incredible book,

Ryan George: 47:43

The Day would feel seen. It's been interesting. So I've given advanced reader copies to I don't know, 100 different people. And the number one feedback I get from people is, you wrote that book for me like I, you wrote my story, it's like, well, that's because there's 10s of 1000s of people in our country with this story. Maybe Maybe their dad isn't in the news for sexually abusing a series of women, that that's kind of niche. But to be in a high control religion or to to transition from a superstitious faith to one that gives you life. So I hope people find courage to tell their story. To go, Yeah, I'm, I'm ready to tell the world. This was me too. That would be huge. It is not a book to convince people to go to church. It tells people how I found the safe church, you know? Yeah, I just hope people feel safe to tell their stories, and that it leads them to an environment where they can tell because I think it's a chain reaction. Right? When you tell your story, then it gives somebody else the courage to tell theirs. And we keep this going until hopefully we can route more and more of this stuff out of the church. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 48:46

that's, that's my prayer. Over and over, I want to see the church look like Jesus. And I mean, that's, that's why we're here with the Imam supposed to be the embodiment of Jesus. To the world like this, we're supposed to look exactly like Jesus, He gave us his gift so that we could look like him. So and we could grow up into him who's the head and that he is full of love, and grace and compassion. We need to be more compassionate, to listen to each other stories and to be safe people to be able to receive those stories. And not to flex we're really good at deflecting stories, and we're good at deflecting things or even saying, I can't enter into your story because I feel pain right now. And so that's the only thing that I can focus on. I can't focus on somebody else's story. But I know in my life when I have pain, sorrow that I'm going through, it actually also helps me listening to other people's stories is not just for the person telling the story. But that goes a long way.

Ryan George: 49:52

Storytelling should it shouldn't surprise that that's how Jesus designed the church to work. Amen. Amen. James wrote, confess your sins one to another so that you may be healed. Now, it's not always sins that were confessing. But that principle works for me, the more I tell my story, the more healing I find from telling my story. Yeah. And why why should we be surprised that that's how it work when that's how the Bible says it should. Yeah, Jesus said I came to give you life life more abundant. I came to set you free. We so many people in his culture and currently in ours, think of that as like a political freedom or like a specific mandate. I was like Nintendo. One of my favorite verses in the Old Testament is where God said, Hey, I came to remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. In other words, I want you to feel more not less like I'm The inventor of emotions, I'm the inventor of physicality. I want to inhabit that space with you so that you can feel more. He's like, I want to turn your RGB levels up. Like I want your world to be full color. And you experience all that. That's why I gave you so many senses, because I want you to experience me as much as you can.

Joshua Johnson: 50:57

And we can have all the other conversation about, about emotions and feeling Yeah, especially. Okay, but let's go back to advice that you would give to your 21 year old self. And I think this is this be helpful for anybody in your situation when you were 21. So what, what advice would you give to yourself now? So

Ryan George: 51:15

I've been listening to your podcasts prepare for this interview? Yeah. What's the cause? Like, Oh, no. Because I have a like, Back to the Future view. Like if I went back to 21 year old me, I think I would mess everything up. You know, if I, I could, I could be a lot wealthier now. But as far as an aside, has been thinking like, I'd have to have an answer for Joshua, I have to have an answer. I, I think what I would tell 21 year old me is instead of chasing affirmation, Chase influence, whether you will ever be noticed, recognize no matter how many likes you get, no matter you know, I was bullied in school, I wasn't one of the cool kids. I tried so hard. Once a week, the reason I got into action sports, was to try to prove to the world that I was worth their attention. And I would turn on that GoPro and I'd suddenly have courage, do the things I never had courage to do my life, just hoping for a little bit of dopamine on Facebook. And I would tell a 21 year old me, Hey, man, you may not ever get enough of that, if you believe I'm at all and I do, Kevin traveled all over the world, you can take that train all the way out. And it still won't be enough. But what it feels like when you see your influence coming alive and the people you disciple, and the people that you mentor, that there's an abundance of that, and that's plentiful.

Joshua Johnson: 52:28

That's really good. And that goes from the macro to the micro, right, that you're the influences in the micro areas, the places where it's in relationships, one to another, on on a place where you could actually have conversations with people, right. And so I think that's really important. I mean, that's what discipleship looks like this, we're discipling others in community in relationship. It has to be a shared life has to be part of it. You know, I could, you know, I can have all these conversations I want, that's great. But I have to have a shared life with others to grow and loving relationship with Jesus as well. So that's good. I love that. That's a great, great answer you and I pat it. Good job. Good job. Anything you've been reading watching lately, you could recommend?

Ryan George: 53:17

Absolutely. So I haven't been able to read for the last three months, because of preparing for launch of my book and whatever else, whatever I can. I've listened to my book to say that I'm ready to quote it and whatever. But the last book I read was the best book I read in 2024. by Sean Dietrich, he goes by Shaun of the South, I think it's called will the circle be unbroken, there's a heron on the front cover. And he lost his dad to suicide when he was like 12, I think. And it's about how he put his life back together after losing his dad. And his beautiful it is, for a man who never got a high school diploma, it is the best writing I've ever read. I've read both of his books, but that his last two books, but yet, it just I was in the canyon lands of Texas, New Years, and right after fishing or listening to that book, and he had recorded it in the same studio that I recorded mine. That's how I found out about it. And we're going down this canyon, 1600 foot rock walls on either side, going down the Rio Grande, Mexico on the right, Texas on the left, and a heron lands in front of me and follows me, the entire trip outs just stink just off the end of my canoe. And I lost it. I just wept. And it was as if Jesus was saying, I sent you that book about how to deal with grieving your father. Right before this time when you'd have to go and talk to a whole bunch of people about what it is to lose so much that fatherhood carries what church meant to you, whatever else. And it was a very tender moment with my heavenly Father. And so maybe I have more connected in that book than most of the people who hear this or see this would but man it was it was absolutely powerful.

Joshua Johnson: 54:57

Yeah, but friends who lost her sister and really close in a heron came and and that has she was just, you know, on her porch watching and that gave her you know, so much hope that she was still there with her. It was for some reason, you know, herons are assigned that God's with us, which is interesting, you know.

Ryan George: 55:26

Chesapeake Bay, I worked at a golf course that was built out into the water, and I mowed the greens. You know, it was, you know, unskilled labor. And in the morning, you know, my house was tumultuous, right? So work was actually a safe place for me. Just sit there in the morning and wash these herons. They can stand utterly still for hours. And I can't I still struggled to be still for more than three minutes because my thoughts get too much. You go man, I would love to just sit in that water for 45 minutes waiting for one fish. Like it's just so fascinating.

Joshua Johnson: 55:57

I still go back to my memories of setting pens in the morning, early morning when before everybody everybody gets up. You know, it's it's such a peaceful place to be out there on the bandstand.

Ryan George: 56:10

They never let me set pens points to you, man. I was not good enough to do that.

Joshua Johnson: 56:16

Thank you. Thank you. I was advanced. Yeah, maybe you know, my, my best friend's family on the golf course.

Ryan George: 56:22

Oh, there you go. You had a nail.

Joshua Johnson: 56:24

I had men. I did had that. So Ryan, how can people get your book and connect with you? Where would you like to point people to?

Ryan George: 56:33

Yeah, so two places, you can follow me on Instagram, I'm making all my announcements there. It's I'm at ride plane. It's ry, Pl A and E. And then you can order all the various versions of my book at books by ryan.com. Because right now you can preorder. And then as more and more editions are available, audiobook, ebook, whatever they're all be posted right there at books by ryan.com.

Joshua Johnson: 56:52

Arrived. This is a fantastic book to take people into your story of, of abuse, but then moving into a place of reconstruction and being healed by the church and saying that the church can be a safe place we can find our community we can find the people that would would show us a better way, a new way, a way that looks like Jesus. And so I do pray that many people are seeing this, if they're in this situation, that they could find their way into safe communities that will love them. The way that Jesus loves the sinner, the what the abused, the outcasts, the the lonely, he loved us all, and he sees us all. And we as community can do that for other people. So just pray that they are able to find that safe space, and the place where they're going to be be healed in a way that brings them to a loving relationship with with Jesus. And man, because humans suck sometimes, but she's gotten away of it for sure. And we do get in the way of it. So, Ryan, thank you for this book. And thank you for this conversation. It was really fun to talk to you. So thank you so much.

Ryan George: 58:06

Thanks for having me.