Ep. 177 Bri Stensrud - Welcoming Immigrants and Refugees with Compassion

In this episode Bri Stensrud shares about shifting from a traditional pro-life stance to a whole life approach that values all human dignity and life. Bri shares her personal journey in this regard and emphasized the importance of proximity, empathy, and compassion when it comes to issues like immigration. She encourages Christians to move beyond comfort, engage with Scripture, and advocate for vulnerable groups like immigrants and refugees from a prophetic, non-partisan perspective focused on people rather than politics. Bri encourages us all to have open conversations, welcome immigrants into their communities, and serve with presence rather than just financially supporting issues from a distance. Join us as we learn how to welcome immigrants and refugees with compassion. 

Bri Stensrud is an author, human dignity advocate, and the Director of Women of Welcome. Her passion is to equip the Church to engage more consistently and tangibly in holistic human dignity issues. Throughout her work in the pro-life movement, Bri continually faced questions from those concerned about immigrants and refugees. Understanding that many concerns were rooted in fear and misinformation she started a journey to detangle from politically partisan narratives and seek out a biblical perspective to uplift and advocate for immigrants and refugees and invite other Christian women into this same space. 

She has authored two books: Start with Welcome: The Journey toward a Confident and Compassionate Immigration Conversation, and a children's book: The Biggest Best Light: Shining God's Light into the World Around You. 

Bri's Recommendation:
Strange Religion by Nijay Gupta

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Bri Stensrud: 0:00

So what I mean by prophetic is, is that there should be a difference there should be a Christ, like powerful difference between what you're saying and what you are speaking into the culture and how you're acting within the culture than the rest of the world. And the rest of the world right now the rest of culture right now says Pick aside. And for Christians, our side is with Jesus. And we'll we'll noodle through the rest. And there are our big things to noodle through, but we should be different.

Joshua Johnson: 0:43

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week. And go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper, find us on social media at shifting culture podcast where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included nakoma The nahe, Kevin King and Meredith Johnson. He go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is barista and stret. Bree is an author, human dignity advocate and the director of women of welcome her passion is to equip the church to engage more consistently in tangibly and holistic human dignity issues. Throughout her work in the pro life movement, Bree continually faced questions from those concerned about immigrants and refugees. Understanding that many concerns were rooted in fear and misinformation. She started a journey to detangle from politically partisan narratives and seek out a biblical perspective to uplift and advocate for immigrants and refugees and invite other Christian women into the same space. Her latest book is start with welcome. In my conversation with Bree. She shares about shifting from a traditional pro life stance to a whole life approach that values all human dignity and life. Bree shares her personal journey in this regard and emphasize the importance of proximity, empathy and compassion when it comes to issues like immigration. She encourages Christians to move beyond comfort, engage with scripture, and advocate for vulnerable groups like immigrants and refugees from a prophetic, nonpartisan perspective focused on people rather than politics. Bri encourages us all to have open conversations, welcome immigrants into their communities, and serve with presence rather than just financially supporting issues from a distance. So join us as we learn how to welcome immigrants and refugees with compassion. Here's my conversation with Bree Stens. Red. Aubrey, welcome to shifting culture really excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.

Bri Stensrud: 3:19

Thanks for having me.

Joshua Johnson: 3:20

Can you share with me your story of how you move from a place of being in the the pro life movement of let's focus on abortion and make sure that a there's some life that gets to be lived out into a place of like, Hey, we're pro all life? And we want to say, yes, we want to say we want life in the womb, but we also want life for people everywhere. How did that transition for you take place? So

Bri Stensrud: 3:49

I grew up as a pastor's kid in the evangelical church. And of course, you know, evangelical Christians are pro life people. And yet growing up in the pro life movement and then working professionally in the pro life movement, you know, that's really more of a traditional way to define being pro life is about really preborn life and about vulnerable women who find themselves in really hard situations. And so during my work in the pro life movement, I was challenged by a mentor to really look at the pro life issue as more of a continuum of a whole life issue and to rethink what it meant to be pro life from a biblical point of view, not just like a dictionary definition of what it meant to be pro life. And when you look at what it means to be pro life from a biblical definition, we care about the dignity and sanctity of every human life because of Genesis 127. And because of a huge arc throughout scripture of other verses that talk about protecting vulnerable people and not taking innocent life and being champion of the flourishing of others and loving our neighbors well, and so I really got mentored into this kind of Life pro life worldview. And that carried me into other spaces of adoption and end of life care and other things like that. But really, there's, you know, any human dignity issue that deals with life and death, from a biblical standpoint is really kind of a, it's a pro life worldview. And it fits in the worldview and it feels squishy at first, especially immigration, people are like, well, that feels like it's just a political issue. But if we take out kind of the big eye of immigration, and we look at immigrants and refugees, as individual image bearers of our Creator, it's definitely a pro life issue because they are facing life and death issues and find themselves very vulnerable and without a voice in places all across the world searching for flourishing, and for a new life. And so I moved from this kind of traditional sense of what it meant to be pro life, really just for the preborn space, and then moved into a whole life pro life definition. And in that, I was invited by World Relief to go across the border to southern Mexico for four and a half days of an immersive experience. And I saw things I could never unsee and it changed really the trajectory of my life and my profession.

Joshua Johnson: 6:12

What was something that you saw that you can't unsee now, or

Bri Stensrud: 6:18

I think the biggest thing that I will never be able to unsee and will never leave me is an 11 year old girl holding an eight Dale baby that was her own. And I was exposed and brought in greater proximity to people that I had never been around before. And I had been given a new narrative that included people that I had long thought that I was championing. I thought, oh, yeah, well, I care about the dignity and sanctity of every human life, immigrants are made in the image of God, I am pro immigrant. And yet I wasn't using my voice well, for those who didn't have a voice, and I was also unaware of the full story of what immigrants and refugees are overcoming, to, essentially just survive. And so when I went down to Mexico, and I was taken into an unaccompanied minor shelter, where there were just children who had been lost or separated from their parents along their journey north to the US, I encountered several young girls, 111 and 113, who are holding their own babies. And that shook me, I had never been told that as an American, or even as a Christian, that this kind of violence, this kind of, really trauma and instability was happening to children around the world. And we knew this just from like the human trafficking world. And we knew that because people live in poverty, but to see the real reasons why people are being pushed out, and the real pull factors of why people want to come to America was so incredibly fresh and real. And that will never leave me.

Joshua Johnson: 7:58

I think when I sat down, and I went from thinking about immigration, or, you know, people coming from other countries as refugees, as a political issue, or just an issue in general, to a place of sitting in, in living rooms with with refugees, and actually then becoming friends. Now, I say, these are my friends, these aren't refugees. These are immigrants. These are my friends, these are people, there are people. What is it? How do we get to a place of sleep seen people instead of just issues?

Bri Stensrud: 8:38

Well, I think for the Christian, there's a couple of things I think the church is, has lost its proximity to people in pain, we are out of practice on how to long suffer with people. And we have done a very good job in American Christianity of curating communities that are very safe, and very monolithic, and very homogenous, because that is what makes us feel comfortable. And that's what we like. And America is a consumeristic nation. This is we are consumers and we also like to be catered to. And so that's no different in the way that we kind of, we want the kind of worship we want that we want the kind of community we want. We want the kind of education we want. And in America, we have the ability and the privilege to kind of just do whatever we want to go wherever we want to go and make the kind of life that we want to make. And so we have done a really great job of really kind of insulating ourselves from what the rest of the world needs us to engage in. And so we've really lost I think the the gift of proximate proximity and the power of proximity to people who are in pain. Because we all know that suffering brings us closer to the heart of God and it makes us more like Christ. And it has an eternal weight and purpose that we We are trying very hard to avoid in many cases, right? And so we've we I think we've lost our proximity. We've also lost the ability to dig into the Scriptures with hunger for other people. And so when LifeWay Research comes out with a brand new study just a couple of weeks ago, it says that only 26% of self identified evangelicalism say that their Bible is the thing that's influencing them the most about immigration. That's troubling. We need to be, you know, the Bible. I think people are surprised when I when I say, you know, it's it's not that the Bible has anything to say about US immigration policy, actually doesn't have anything to say about US immigration policy. But what it does have a lot to say about our immigrants or refugees, people who are sojourning. And the Bible has a lot to say about how we should think feel, talk and advocate for those who are vulnerable and sojourning throughout our land. And that right there should tell us all right, if God has something to say about this, I want to know about it. And we have, we are so out of practice on how to have a good conversation from a faith perspective. First that we have, we've really left this to the politicians, which have we need a new fresh, faith filled narrative from Christians to lead the way in the mayor. Yes.

Joshua Johnson: 11:16

So if we look in, in Scripture, and if you look all the way back from, you know, Genesis all the way through, how does Scripture deal with migration? If we want to look at a through the lens of migrating people or migration itself? What is the Bible telling us?

Bri Stensrud: 11:35

Well, the Bible tells us that God cares a lot about immigrants and refugees, people who are sojourning through the land, I mean, nearly every major biblical character, like major biblical character in the Bible was an immigrant. They were coming and going, and they were going because they were fleeing something or the God told them to go somewhere like Abram, or they had done something. So they needed to take shelter in a different land. I mean, David Acton acted insane at one point to get coverage from another from the Philippines in the state. So I mean, you've got Migration Stories, and biblical characters who from throughout biblical history are moving themselves to find flourishing or moving because the Lord directed them to. But even just in the Old Testament itself, the word for stranger, alien Sojourner is the word guerre, as the Hebrew word and it's used over 90 times in the Old Testament alone. And there are specific ways that God wanted His people to remember and take care of sonar sojourners, like do not glean more than once in your field, you leave the outer edges. For those who are traveling you treat the foreigner as if they were native born you appropriate land to them, you have just you speak up for the immigrant, you also appropriate justice for that immigrant, you seek out justice for them. So in the Old Testament, you have all of these major biblical characters who are migrating and traveling and going to different lands. And then you also have just God repeatedly telling his people, I want you to care about immigrants and refugees, as I want you to care about other vulnerable populations, immigrants or refugees or, you know, sojourners, the Gare is mentioned, along with the those who are in poverty, the widow and orphan, it's called the quartet of the vulnerable, it's from Nicholas Wolterstorff, was at the theologian who kind of coined this phrase of you know, every time there's just this cluster, in the Old Testament, it's the widow, the sojourner and the poor. And God keeps reminding his people that these are the vulnerable among you, and I want you to care about them. And, and I want you to see them. And then when, of course, when you move to the New Testament, Jesus is like, everybody is your neighbor. And that young lawyer is like, Well, okay, what do you mean, specifically? And if he was really trying to figure out who he could have on his non neighbor list, surely, Lord, not everybody. Because there are some cultural specifications around here, you know, it's like the Roman soldiers are occupying us, and the tax collectors are our own people who are exploiting us. Surely, I don't have to love all those people, as I love my own children, as I love my own self. And Jesus was like, Well, you know, let me tell you about this Samaritan, who you like, don't like and I'm going to make him the hero. So you have from Genesis really to Revelation and where we're talking about every tribe in every nation, singing praises of worshiping God, we have this narrative that we have to revisit and rethink about as far as alright. God wants us to care about the vulnerable, he wants to love our neighbor as ourselves. And so what does that actually mean for me, if I take God seriously, and what he's, it doesn't mean we allow everybody who wants to come into the US entry. I mean, that would be unwise and unsafe, right. So you can have these both ends, right? Everybody thinks because I advocate for Christ like welcome and compassion, that I'm also advocating for some kind of have open borders policy of some sort. And yet, that's, that's somebody even viable. That's not That's not even a reasonable request or advocate, you know, advocacy point to make because we can have safe and secure borders and humane treatment of people who are coming to the border. And those things are not mutually exclusive concepts. So I think people are a bit relieved when I say, law and order and humane treatment of people because it's like, oh, okay, I don't have to be weak. My Compassion doesn't make me weak. Your compassion should make you kind. Your compassion is not actually meant to be political. It's meant to be prophetic. So when people tell you that your compassion that God has given you we all have God given compassion as Christian, if someone was to say, well, that has made you political, that has made you soft, that has made you weak, really, our compassion is God given to be prophetic in this world around us. And compassion is not a weakness. It's a kindness.

Joshua Johnson: 15:58

Yeah, that's true. So then get into what does that look like to be prophetic and a place to be? I am a prophetic witness. My my compassion is prophetic in a place. What are you saying in that statement?

Bri Stensrud: 16:13

What I'm saying is, is that the people of God should be different in this culture, and that their words should be giving life and sustaining life and introducing them to the one and only person, Jesus Christ, that will save their life for eternity. And so we are meant to be speaking forth, God's words, which we know do not come back empty, and that they go out and that they change people's lives, they separate bone and marrow, and we, we have the power of Christ to create solutions and to advocate for other image bearers in ways that other everyday humans who don't know Jesus don't have the ability to do. So when I say that our compassion is prophetic, it's that we are to be different. We are to be Christ, like, and so you have to detangle all of your maybe idols in the political sphere, like you know, there's so many partisan politics that have really taken so much territory away from the Christians field of play, if we could say it that way. And what we need to do is we need to detangle from partisan politics, get involved with public policy, because policy does affect people. And that we have privileged to affect how people are treated in this country, how people are treated at the border, how people are invested in, in diplomatic relations in other countries, we have a powerful voice with our government to hold them accountable and hold them to a higher standard. And so we should not be chanting and repeating the same echo chamber comments, the same kinds of narratives, because we're actually held to a higher standard than our neighbor, if we bow to Jesus. So what I mean by prophetic is, is that there should be a difference, there should be a Christ, like powerful difference between what you're saying and what you are speaking into the culture and how you're acting within the culture than the rest of the world. And the rest of the world right now, the rest of culture right now says Pick aside. And for Christians, our side is with Jesus. And we'll, we'll noodle through the rest. And there are our big things to noodle through. But we should be different.

Joshua Johnson: 18:29

We're actually primarily citizens of, of a different kingdom, yet the kingdom of Gods you know, living in different nation states around the world. But as believers, we are a part of the kingdom and we should start set help unveil the kingdom to, to everybody show compassion, and love for people who are here. I think for a lot of Christians, sometimes they they want proximity through other people. So as an example, you know, when my wife and I went to the Middle East to serve and be with refugees, people were like, Hey, I will give money to you and support you and and that is necessary and needed, and we we want that. But there are also some people says, Yeah, I will support I will give money, but I also I have some, some skills I can I can help. And, you know, bringing over fabric creating a sewing group, so refugees can have a source of income. And we can start to study the ways of Jesus together while we're doing that. So we have people coming to provide something that was actually beneficial and useful in that space. And so they would actually then be proximate to the refugees as well and now they know their stories. They know their names and who they are and it's not just an issue that we throw money at. But I think sometimes Christians are good at throwing money at issues and they Since then I've done my part. And so how can we move from a place of not just saying the person over there can do the work, and I will support them in it. But how do I become a compassionate person that is proximate and local, with people, so I actually see them know them, and I know their names.

Bri Stensrud: 20:25

Well, the evangelical dollar is powerful, but still has the power of presence. And so I love this quote from Shane Claiborne. I heard it about seven years ago, and it has stuck with me, and never left me. And I repeat it everywhere I go, because it just rang so true and was so convictional to me. And that is he said, I'm convinced that it's not that rich Christians don't care about the poor. It's that they don't know the poor. And I look around at particularly white evangelicalism. And I see a lot of people who love to attend galas, who love to attend and write the check, who love to send the other person and cheer on other people, and yet are not intentional about creating or finding margin for their own presence to be in a certain place. And so I think it's very true. I think Christians do care about vulnerable people. And I think that their dollar is incredibly powerful. So I'm not saying don't write the check, because these ministries need

Joshua Johnson: 21:30

the checks. Yeah, we need the check, we need the check.

Bri Stensrud: 21:33

Your presence is also a gift. It's also incredibly powerful. And your presence is what makes things personal. So if you're not getting in close proximity to the places that you're investing, then I'm wondering what you're prioritizing in your life, if it's worthy to give your finances to, Is it worthy to give some of your time to as well. And of course, people are in different seasons of their life and you know, busier times, and others. But if everything about our lives is really just kind of circulating around our kids, and we're just the tornado of life is just really kind of around your sphere of what your people, immediate family and people need, then we're really not living out the gospel, to go and reach people and be with the hurting be with the sick. You know, Matthew 25. Lord, when did I see You hungry? When did I see you in prison? When did I see you naked? When did I see you homeless. And if we are not close enough to people to see their pain, we're not living out Matthew 25, which is how the Lord says he's going to identify us, it's how he's going to know us at the end of time, it's not just, Hey, yes, you're forgiven for your sins, He's going to be like, I need to be able to recognize you. And that you showed up in the world in a different way. And that you actually love your neighbor as yourself. And so I would say it's again, living in this both end, right. So we say safe and secure borders, and humane treatment of people giving of your time and your investment, financial investment and showing up with your presence, because your presence is also a very valuable gift. Most of these places that we're donating to actually need volunteers, they actually need the power of your presence. And so sometimes they find it just as valuable. Presence

Joshua Johnson: 23:17

is really important. I think that's a that's a big gift is a shared life with others, presence to be with people. We're we're missing that in our culture today that we're we're not very good with presence anymore. We're good with with online presence, but we're not good with that personal presence. Yeah, physical presence. Yep. So we need to step into those things. What's a story of a refugee immigrant that has moved you to compassion, that it's helped see them in a different light?

Bri Stensrud: 24:30

Well, I think a lot of people first and foremost think that they're not near these issues. And that because they don't live along the border, that they don't have proximity, or they can't find proximity to immigrants and refugees. And honestly, there are so many issues in our own communities, of people who are likely just not living in your same neighborhood, or who are likely living in the shadows because they haven't been welcomed to America, you know, in a way that we probably need to welcome them, and that we should welcome them. And so a quick Google search will tell you, where immigrants are in your community, whether that's searching for an immigrant congregation and your community. There's lots of immigrant congregations that are meeting on Sundays and other days of the week. And then there's also just Googling Immigrant Services in your county in your city that can get you in closer proximity to people and the reason why I bring that up first before I tell you this story is because a lot of times when I tell stories of where I've been and who I've talked to, it feels very distant and very far away. And yet there are 1000s of these kinds of stories right in your community. I can guarantee it and with the power Are up your presence. You can hear these stories too. So you don't have to just take my word for it, you could also get close as well. And migrating around the world, there are over 100 million forcibly displaced people around the world right now. And due to war, conflict, natural disasters, and 35 million of that 100 million are determined to be refugees, meaning people who are intentionally fleeing persecution for on account of their race, religion, social status, what's going on in their country. So it's, there's a variety of complicating factors for why people are on the move, but the world is moving in an historic rate that we've never seen before. And so I

Joshua Johnson: 26:21

just want to just say, when I got involved in a lot of refugee care, and this that was, you know, 14 years ago or so, the number was like mid 20 million, like that is exponential growth in the last 1012 years that is just unprecedented. Like, there's so many displaced people,

Bri Stensrud: 26:43

it's more than ever than the history of the world, or forcibly displaced people. And so what, again, is the church's response to welcome those who are fleeing in the sojourner as the Bible commands us to, but I think one of the most, I've heard so many stories that have changed my perspective on this, and that has given confidence to my compassion and really anchored my conviction about how we are to treat sojourners and the most recent one. I think the most recent one that I think is most powerful, is I met in Tijuana, San Diego region, borderland area, I met a woman from Iran, she had come to know the Lord by a HomeGroup. In her neighborhood, a group of ladies had invited her into a Bible study, it was obviously a very quiet Bible study in Iran. And she was she'd only been going for a month but she'd accepted Jesus and she'd be gone for a month. And she was late to group one morning. And as she was coming upon the house, she saw that it was being raided. And so she fled back to her house. And she she knew she had to flee because all of her girlfriends just got thrown into prison and more being persecuted for their faith in Jesus. And so she, you know, she can't get a visa or any way any means to come to the US. We don't accept VSAs from Iran. And so she flew with her husband and her 10 year old son to South America. And they traveled through over 10 countries on foot by train, to get to the US border, they got lost in the Darien Gap jungle for four nights by themselves, robbed, took advantage of, and they made it to the US border, the three of them. And she'd only been a Christian for a month. She'd only known Jesus for a month. So she gets to the US. she pleads her case, and they she's granted asylum. So she's in the San Diego area. She's attending a church. Her husband is not a believer, mind you. But he's made this journey with her which is incredible in and of itself. And her 10 year old son is not a believer as well. In fact, when he gets to the US, he's incredibly bitter. He's been through a lot of trauma through this journey to leave Iran. He's left his family, his friends, his language, his culture, his school, all because of mom's Jesus. And he's still bitter. And he's sad. And he's probably seen more than any 10 year old should ever have had to see. And he's 11 year old now in public schools in California. And he sticks out like a sore thumb. And his mom is just praying, Lord, take care of us take care of us. You brought us all this way. And a little, little 11 year old girl in his class befriends him and starts inviting him to play dates and birthday parties. And turns out this little girl is a Christian. She invites him to church. And this 11 year old boy accepts Christ because of another 11 year old girl in his public school in California. And you just think, Lord could not have been done in Iran, couldn't you have. And yet, the Lord brought that family all the way to the US, for her son to meet Jesus, and to do so in such a profound way. And of course, not everybody showing up at the southern border has a story like that not everybody showing up at the southern border is going to, you know, that they're going to actually be fleeing persecution in some way. They're not going to be approved for asylum. And that's why I say you know, we need thorough vetting and not everybody should be allowed to enter but so many people find that that is the only legal way that they can come, there's really no light for people to get in who are vulnerable and who are seeking a new life. And so, as so many people apply for asylum, and they will not qualify, and yet this family does, and we want to ensure their safety and their lives if they truly are fleeing persecution on account of their Christian faith. And so it was just this really powerful reminder of how God is still leading people through the wilderness, and how he protecting people who claim his name, and how he is working in really incredible ways to use our country as a safe haven for people. And if we keep withdrawing the welcome mat, for people who are fleeing persecution, I think the Lord is going to withdraw blessing from us, because he says, so in the scriptures that, you know, as you have treated these people, I will refer and treat you. And so you need to keep that in mind the fear of God, that He cares about these people just as much as you care about us. He cares about their safety, cares about our safety, he cares. But he cares about our heart posture towards those who are vulnerable. And if we are begrudging, and if we don't think this is an opportunity to invite people into the kingdom of God, that will that will be something that we will encourage our Trump for.

Joshua Johnson: 31:54

So how do we do that? Well, how do we become people of welcome in a way that literally welcomes people without an agenda, but just as compassionate loves people, where they're at? How do we become those types of people? Well,

Bri Stensrud: 32:10

there are multiple ways for people to get involved. And first and foremost, what I would say is, hopefully, if you pick up the start with welcome book that's just been released, you will get a full biblical conversation that maybe you've never had before. And it's a conversation about how does this fit in your pro life worldview? How does what does the Bible say about this? What has been going on in partisan politics that has entangled us so much? How do we detangle from that we're not deconstructing our faith, we're detangling from some really unhealthy and probably toxic and idealistic things that we have really set on the mantle above what our heart posture should be towards vulnerable people. And I think so first and foremost, I think we have to dive into what the Bible says and let God really shape and kind of convict us of where we are and how we have been aloof on this matter, or we have been really angry, or really unhelpful in this matter. But I also think that there are ways to get involved. And there is one very specific way that really the the US government is asking for people of faith to help. And that is there is currently a private refugee sponsorship program that the US has never done before. And it's brand new in the history of the US. Canada has been doing it for a very long time, this private refugee sponsorship program. And then like we just mentioned, there are 35 million refugees who have already been thoroughly vetted by the UN, and determined that they are refugees, and they are living in refugee camps around the world. And then they need to be welcomed into countries. And so for the first time ever, private citizens of the United States can welcome refugees. So that used to just be done through government resettlement agencies. And so now, private everyday citizens can do this. And my small group, and my church is doing this, we have eight couples in our group, you have to have a minimum of five people to welcome a refugee family. And you have to raise a certain amount of money. And you have to kind of just sign up and say, Yes, we will welcome this family, but you can welcome a refugee family through a small group of your friends or your Bible study, you can start doing that today. And these are people who are already been vetted and are just waiting for welcome. So you could sign up to become a sponsor of a refugee family. And that's something that you can either DM me or women of welcome about. I'm sure you have show notes that can link people to that. But I also just think keeping your curiosity in tact about the people who are around you in your community, use your voice well in the public sphere. And in all the public policy and and all the partisan politics, your voice should be different. It shouldn't be attached to one person or one thing it should only be attached to Jesus and it should be edifying and helpful for others around you. But on top of that, then keeping a healthy dose of curiosity for the community around you. Why don't you have margin to see people? Where are they are? Why don't you see immigrants or refugees in your community? Why don't you spend time with the places that you donate to? You know, if you donate to a homeless shelter, are you participating in the mentorship program for that community? If you are, doesn't matter, whatever issue your could be the pregnancy center in town could be the anti trafficking movement in town. Are you spending time by gifting your presence in those places that provide a level of proximity that your paycheck cannot? So that would be my thing I will To say, hopefully pick up a copy of the book because that is going to give you the full conversation. And then I think, you know, getting into your Bible, and then also getting close in proximity, signing up for some things that are going to stretch you, I think is how we become more like Christ in these ways. A

Joshua Johnson: 35:54

lot of those things are really uncomfortable. And, you know, we, we had a group at our church that, you know, my wife led to welcome a family from Afghanistan and to Kansas City. And it was a lot of work. And, you know, you're, you're sitting there, you're, you're helping them rent places, you're helping them get possums out of the basement. Yeah, you're helping them get that car, you're translating for a whole bunch of different things. I mean, there's all sorts of things that you're doing. And a lot of it is like getting into this uncomfortableness of of doing it. Like, I think just a lot of people are complacent, because they don't want to be uncomfortable. It scares them to be uncomfortable. They're in a comfortable position. How do we move people from a place of comfort into willingness to be uncomfortable, and enter into something that they're scared of?

Bri Stensrud: 36:55

You have to go scared? You You know, John Wayne has this quote, of courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway. And I love that because God doesn't say go and do this work without me. He says, I'm already there. Can you come meet me where you are, you know, when I take people down for immersion experiences at the border, I just say I want to be very clear, we are not coming to bring God to this place. He is already here. He is alive and well. And we are here to see him working in spaces that we could never imagine living in the insert in situations that we could never imagine finding ourselves or our family. And likely, maybe, yeah. And so you have to tell yourself that you're gonna go scared and you have to want Jesus, you have to want to be like Jesus, there has to be something that the Holy Spirit says to you, that says, Alright, do you want to be more like yourself? Or do you want to continue to grow and be like Jesus, because I want to put you in, in situations that are going to be uncomfortable, but they're going to make you more Christ like and that is the goal for every Christian is to be more Christ like so. We're not actually supposed to get to a place of comfort. I think comfort is actually crippling American comfort. Evangelical comfort is crippling the church. And if you think about how we keep praying for revival, and we keep praying for God's presence, in schools, and in government, and all these things we want to participate in all of this revival we want to see, well, how do you think revival comes, it comes from the people of God, showing up and acting in pathetic ways, and Christlike ways to reach people who are in a lot of pain and can't see past that pain, and who are in a lot of vulnerability and are looking for a lifeline. They're looking for daily bread. And we have all the bread that we could be handing out to the world and people who are in pain. And so I think you have to want Jesus, I think you have to want to keep moving in ways that stretch you because your comfort is crippling you. And it's honestly probably most likely keeping your faith very stagnant and lukewarm, which doesn't change the world. The world is not changed by an angry tweet, it does not change by you getting upset with other people. It's changed by radical love and hospitality, which is what all of Jesus's followers were, like, confused about. Even way back when when the disciples were like, I don't see why we are eating with these people. I do not understand why you're not yelling at this Roman guard. I do not understand why you're not upset. And she says like, well, I'm I'm definitely upset with this, like business production you have going on inside the lobby of the church. I'm definitely upset with the Pharisees who are keeping you at a distance where you feel safe and will you feel a better stature and standing. I'm upset with that. I'm not upset with these people who are lost because they're lost. So I've come to seek and save the lost and if we're not about that, then we were missing it in a big way.

Joshua Johnson: 40:16

No, one of the things that I realized living in proximity to refugees is that I I seldom welcomed them into my own home. But I I learned how to be a good guest and their home and their place in their tent that they were living in. I was at guests and you know, looking at Jesus's life, Jesus didn't welcome people in his own home in his ministry, he was a good guest everywhere he went, what does it look like for us to take a posture of curiosity and learning from the people that where we are also welcoming into this country?

Bri Stensrud: 41:02

We have so much to learn. I mean, the world is at our doorstep. I mean, we continually send people like I mean, this is what we do, right? Churches are sending missionaries were supporting missionaries, we're writing checks, to support missions, all of these things were going around the world, and yet, the world is at our doorstep. They're right here. And a lot of times what we hear from Christians is they're like, We want to help you where you are. We don't want actually want you here. And that's why we have you kind of pulled the welcome mat out from, you know, the southern border and there because we've entangled it and all of these other things, right? And so when I'm going to answer your question, because people are coming, people are coming here, and then they're getting set up, and they're trying to establish a life and they're trying to start over. And yet they, they come from all of these cultures, where hospital hospitality is the way in which you just do life, like you are always giving the best of what you have, you're always making the biggest meal for your guests, even if you can't afford it, you are doing that. And while we go out on missions trips, and we do all of these things in other countries, we are guests in their country, and they're hosting us well welcoming us well. The American church should get good at hospitality here in America, we should be the best at welcoming, because we are Christians, because we are a global church. We're not the American church, we're the global church. And so there are people who are coming, and they and they're not being invited into American homes, which is sad. And if you talk to immigrants who are here, it's very, very rare that you will find one who will say, Yes, I was welcomed here. And they will probably welcome you into their home. And so what part of being a good guest in their home part of being a good guest to someone who's trying to find a new life in your community is a posture of learning, and a posture of curiosity, listening wed to deep curiosity and authentic love for that person. I don't know you, but I want to love you. Well, what can I learn from you? That, that I don't know? What can I learn about your culture? What could because listening, wed to like deep empathy for someone is how you actually get to know them well enough to offer them Jesus, you know, so if we don't understand all of the trauma that they have been through, when they choose to share it, if they ever do, when we when we don't understand what culture they're coming from, or what their family history is, or what they've seen or what they're passionate about. How can we actually really connect in a very personal and prophetic way to people that we don't know. As a guest, you show up and you listen well, so that you can learn? What are the ways in which I can love this person well, and love them so well, that they're going to ask me, Why do you love me like this? Why are you interested in me? Why do you keep showing up and spending time with me? Why do you keep inviting my kids to birthday parties and play dates? Well, it's because I love Jesus. And Jesus told me that I was to love you. And then there you go. And then there's the onramp. It's just like this little girl that reached out to this boy who was stuck out like a sore thumb didn't speak the language. He's Middle Eastern, you know, and he's put in this public school and this little 11 year old American Girl befriends him and he comes to know Jesus. It is, it's very simple. Yeah, you have to get over your you have to get over how uncomfortable it is. And you have to let there be awkward silence. And there you have to let there be, you know, cultural, faux pas and all kinds of things. You know, we've got dozens of stories over in our women of welcome community, just entering in and getting over that hump of being scared, but then just like, oh, I, I brought them a pizza, and they're a Muslim family, and I brought them a piece that has meat on it. Wow, that was the right leg. They don't need, you know, so it's like, okay, so then you just laugh about it together. And you let that be a cherished memory of how, you know, the Lord helped humble you in a very sweet way. And then you went out to the grocery store together and bought a new meal for dinner. You know, it's like, just show up, just show up. See what God does?

Joshua Johnson: 45:27

Yeah, it's just like, you know, our friends came over there from Iraq, and we haven't seen him in a long time. And so my wife got really excited and she accidentally kissed the husband. Both both cheeks as like you, she would have done with with the wife, you know. And they were just sat back and we just laughed. And you know, my wife was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It was just, I was just overjoyed to see you. I'm so sorry. Because we're, you're entering into that space. And so, mistakes are mistakes, we're gonna have those all the time. And it's okay. And the people are very gracious. And they know that, you know, we're from different cultures, and that we can make those mistakes together. So, yeah, that's really good. We need to do that. I think one of the issues that we I mean, we haven't really touched a lot on immigration itself, and then policy, and I'd love to just briefly help people, especially if they're, you know, in the US, so or in other parts of the world? What are some of these common misconceptions that we have about immigration?

Bri Stensrud: 46:35

Well, I think some of the common misconceptions is that one particular party doesn't, right, and has gotten it right. And really, when you look back through the history, and I talked about this in the book, there's a whole chapter dedicated to this, and for who is welcome here. And in that chapter, we go through the history of past presidents and administrations, and we talk through what has been helpful in those administrations and what has not been helpful, what's been positive, what's been really harmful. And it's very interesting to go back and just realize that every administration has mishandled this, this is we've never gotten this right. And so there are their faults and ownership to be had on both sides of the fence. And, you know, our community, women of welcome is strictly nonpartisan, and I don't engage in partisan politics, because whatever, you know, if you want to whatever side, you're on, fine, great, we need advocates on both sides of the fence. So I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican, or if you're independent. We need your compassionate and convictional prophetic voice on both sides of the fence, if you call it that, right. And so I actually am not necessarily interested in where you fall, politically, and what platform you're aligned with. Hopefully, you're aligned with a bigger platform, which is Jesus's platform, which doesn't align perfectly with either party's platform, we have to just keep in mind that it doesn't. And I think a lot of us had been raised to think that it does, and I certainly was. And so when you look back, and you see that each administration has done harm and has done some good, then you realize this is a really, really agenda feel filled. Topic, just like, you know, and and be like, I don't want to talk about it, because it's political. Well, I know you, I know, you'll talk about abortion. And that's political. I know, you'll talk about other human dignity issues, and those are political. Will we have to go back to is what about people? I don't want to have a conversation about personnel politics, I want to talk about people do you want to help people, you want to talk about individual image bearers, who are caught in a really broken system. And so so many of them, we're not talking about those who want to enter illegally innovate Border Patrol, and I'm talking about that group, we can all agree that we don't want illegal entry, and we want people to be vetted. And we want to know who's coming in and out of the country, we can all agree there. But what we're talking about is people who are showing up at the border, the vast majority of people showing up at the border right now are looking to find Border Patrol, and then they want to submit themselves to the thorough vetting of the country and say, All right, try me and see if I am allowed to stay, I don't want to live in the shadows like I was in my own community, here in the US. So it's a, it's an attempt to come a legal way through the asylum process. And so there are some adjustments that need to be made to the asylum process, we have to have some sort of cap on the asylum process, or we have to have a faster way to adjudicate claims so that people are either allowed to stay and start working and start flourishing, or be repatriated back home. So there are solutions to be had. But there because of partisan politics, it has gotten so incredibly divisive. And there's, there's reasons for why there aren't solutions. And that's unfortunate. So as evangelicals as Christians, we have got to hold our elected officials accountable and say, Hey, I need you to find a solution here. And you know what 77% of self identified evangelicalism say that they want comprehensive immigration reform this year. So brand new study out a couple of weeks ago from LifeWay Research. 77% of people with average local beliefs and self identified evangelicalism, they want comprehensive immigration reform before the year is out. They're seeing the issue, right. And 91% of Evangelicals want safe and secure borders, and they want policies that actually affirm the dignity of people who are created in the image of God. So it's not that there isn't a demand for this. It's that there hasn't been a consistent voice calling out the accountability of those who are in power, which is Congress to make immigration. So then what you have is you have presidents coming in and doing these band-aid executive orders of law interpretation or you know, kind of piecemeal things at the border. And it really has caused great harm to people. It's caused all kinds of other implications and other countries. And it has ruined kind of our diplomatic witness across the world. And so when you have 91% of our church community, saying, we, we want to do both things, that we need to be using our voice with our elected officials to say, get this done, you can do this, we want you to take out all of the, the circus, and we want to talk about people. And we want to get this done not only for the American people, but for those who are showing up at our border, and for those who are seeking thrashing around the globe. So I think it's surprising about how politically motivated people are to not find a solution. And that's where the everyday citizen comes in, where we have to use our voice. Well, I'll tell you one of the most surprising things about entering into this immigration space. When I first came in, about six, seven years ago, I thought I was just very like eyes wide open, every conversation I'm going to get in. At some point, someone is going to present to me that the most compassionate thing we can do is to have open borders, I was just like, looking for it around every single corner. And I have talked with the Biden administration, I've talked with the Trump administration, I have talked with people all over Capitol Hill. And never once, never once Has anyone ever brought up open borders as a solution as a compassionate policy as the right way forward, because after 911 is not actually a viable credible option to put on the table. We have to secure safety for American citizens, we have to know who's coming across our borders. But that doesn't mean you shut down the border that would ruin the American economy that would also ruin our witness or diplomatic relations around the world for people who are truly fleeing persecution, and want to come for legal ways of working and contributing. And so I think we have to get close enough to actually understand that the narrative is very different than what partisan politics will put in front of us. And that is what changed my perspective on all this was getting close enough to see and hear stories that I'd never been told before. And also be given permission to hold the tension of the both end, that safe and secure borders and humane treatment of people are not mutually exclusive concepts. And that it doesn't matter what side of the fence you're on. Because your vote no matter who you vote for is going to be imperfect. So what that means is the year is in between matter. And you've got to use your voice to hold people accountable to do their job in the years in between. And so I think people are sick of the circus, and they want to find solutions. And we are part of the solution because we have to hold people accountable to find those solutions. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 53:45

really good. Really good. Bri I love this book, start with welcome. What would you hope readers would do? How would you want them to, to utilize this book? And what where would you want people to go from after after reading that?

Bri Stensrud: 53:59

So this is a book that is a conversation. It's not a heady academic book, there are really, really great books about immigration already floating out in the world. And I have them all over my shelf. I love them. This is the book that it has is a kind of a laypersons conversation about what does the Bible say about immigration? What does how does this even fit in kind of our holistic pro life ethic? What has been going on historically, you know, just who is welcomed here? Why have they been welcomed here who's not welcomed here. And it's really the conversation that you never knew you could have about immigration, it maybe it's one that you never thought you wanted to have. But this is the book that you could hand to somebody and say, This is the conversation I don't know how to have yet but this is the conversation we should be having. So after each chapter, there are nine chapters, there is a small group kind of conversation page. So I'd love for people to go through this with their Bible studies. I'd love for people who are on the more progressive side of things, and maybe aren't involved in church and maybe have maybe deconstructed and they're like, I don't, I don't really belong there. And people don't understand why I'm here over here over here loving and seeking justice and other ways that I don't see other people doing. This is the book that you hand people that says you know what, here's a charitable conversation that's probably going to meet you right where you are. Your fears are intact, but so is your compassion. And so this is just going to attach confidence to that compassion that you have and have a charitable conversation that says, Yeah, show up with your fears, show up with your messy questions. And if we're just going to figure out all of this together in a way that It doesn't dehumanize you, doesn't demonize you for feeling the way that you feel but invites you into, hopefully a better and more Christ like conversation about a group of people that God really does care about.

Joshua Johnson: 55:50

That's really good. I hope people use it that way. And they enter into this conversation. And they can start to see people and set of issues and then gain some proximity towards those people and get to know people's names and their stories and who they are and not just see them as then immigration blob at the southern border, that they have things that have to do to be able to enter in or they're scary and things are gonna, you know, I want people to see people as people and image bearers, as you said, yeah, leave the partisan

Bri Stensrud: 56:24

politics aside and just talk about people we, as Christians need to be having a better conversation about this. And this is a book that helps you have a better conversation.

Joshua Johnson: 56:33

Bree, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give, go

Bri Stensrud: 56:37

scared, I would tell myself that I grew up a very fear filled kid. I mean, I was a Christian kid in the 80s and 90s. I've read every you know, Tim, like a book about, you know, the rapture, and all the things you know, as fire and brimstone from the start. No. And so I grew up with just a lot of fear. But am I getting this right? Am I doing? Am I sure I was a pastor's kid, too, you know. So you grew up in a fishbowl. And so I just was always kind of entering into life walking on eggshells and wondering if I was doing this right. So I'd go back and just say, saddle up anyway. And, you know, oh, scared, go scared, but go do it.

Joshua Johnson: 57:14

Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend. There's

Bri Stensrud: 57:17

lots of great books out there. You're gonna make me pick one. My goodness.

Joshua Johnson: 57:21

Now you could you could pick you could pick four or five. just rattle them off. Look, I

Bri Stensrud: 57:25

haven't started. haven't started. But I just got in the mail, because it was recommended was strange religion. I don't even know who it's by. This is how Vijay

Joshua Johnson: 57:35

Gupta,

Unknown: 57:36

thank you.

Joshua Johnson: 57:36

If you go back, you can listen to him on my podcast, too. Because it's great. I

Bri Stensrud: 57:41

think Kat Armstrong recommended his book. And I just clicked on Amazon and bought it and I didn't even read who it was by it was like, it just sounds fascinating. So I'm not going to dive strange religion.

Joshua Johnson: 57:52

Awesome. Well, it is a great book, you're going to enjoy it, you're gonna love it. And you'll you'll get to see early Christianity and in a different way. And they see first century Greco Roman culture in a way that you've really never thought of it. So it's really helpful. Very forward. Yeah, Bri how can people go out and get your book connect with you? Where would you like to point people to?

Bri Stensrud: 58:14

I mean, Amazon, I think is the easiest, right? And then hopefully, if you like the book, you can leave a good review. But Amazon anywhere books are sold. And I'm on Instagram, at Bri dot Stens. Or at women of welcome. So hope to find you there. Awesome.

Joshua Johnson: 58:31

Well, Bree, thank you for this conversation. It was it was really great to be able to get into this place where we see people hear their stories, you get to be actually close to them, to know their name that we could actually interact and be compassionate people that look like Jesus. We could walk them well. And we could point people to the way so thank you so much for this conversation. It was great. Thank you for having me.