Ep. 179 Kimberly Stuart - Embracing the Grace that Sets Us Free

In this conversation, Kimberly Stuart talks about her journey with grace and her new book "Star for Jesus". We discuss Kimberly's struggles with perfectionism and legalism, and how embracing God's grace has transformed her life and perspective. We also talked about the important roles that humor, shared experiences, and vulnerability play in building understanding and extending grace to ourselves and others. It was a thought-provoking discussion about living in the "not yet" while recognizing God's already finished work. So join us as we laugh, share stories, and invoke God’s grace.

Kim is a writer, a speaker, a podcaster, and a dark chocolate obsessive. She is the author of eight novels and a newly released nonfiction debut, Star For Jesus (And Other Jobs I Quit). She and New York Times-bestselling author Bob Goff have coached hundreds of aspiring authors through their executive coaching, online courses, and live events in the San Diego area. Stuart has made her home in Minneapolis, Houston, Chicago, Costa Rica, Nebraska, and Iowa, where she now lives with her brave husband and three wily children.

Kim's Book:
Star for Jesus (And Other Jobs I Quit)

Kim's Recommendation:
A Prayer for Orion by Katherine James

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.

Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Threads at
www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcast
https://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/
https://twitter.com/shiftingcultur2
https://www.threads.net/@shiftingculturepodcast
https://www.youtube.com/@shiftingculturepodcast

Consider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below.

Living God's Way in an Ungodly World
In a world that makes up its own rules, Christians need to focus on Who rules! The Christ!

Listen on: Apple Podcasts   Spotify

Transcript

Kimberly Stuart: 0:00

That is probably the most healing thing we can do, honestly, because the shared laughter can kind of cover over a bunch of differences. That in some sugary saccharin way, you know, I'm not saying break out your joke book. Typically, the better idea is to listen, right to listen longer, especially to the people who are driving you bonkers. And then be able to kind of moonwalk out of the, the harder or the more conflict ridden place, by typically poking a little fun at yourself. Right? That's, I think, what we're missing. It's not just that we're so serious, that we've forgotten that we are totally flawed, right? We're so eager to talk about everybody else's issues. make a joke about your own darn self and see how that goes. Typically, that helps people feel like Oh, that's right. We're all here together.

Joshua Johnson: 1:05

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network and tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Kayla Craig, Sarah Billups and Tory hope Peterson you can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Kimberly Stewart. Kim is a writer, a speaker, a podcaster and a dark chocolate obsessive. She is the author of eight novels and a newly released nonfiction debut star for Jesus and other jobs I quit. She, along with New York Times best selling author Bob Gough have coached hundreds of aspiring authors through their executive coaching, online courses and live events in the San Diego area. Stewart has made her home in Minneapolis, Houston, Chicago, Costa Rica, Nebraska and Iowa, where she now lives with a brave husband and three wily children. I had such a wonderful conversation with Kim about her journey with grace. In her new book starfish Jesus, we discuss Kimberly struggles with perfectionism and legalism, and how embracing God's grace has transformed her life and perspective. We also talked about the important roles that humor shared experiences and vulnerability play in building understanding and extending grace to ourselves and to others was a thought provoking discussion about living in the not yet while recognizing God's already finished work. So join us as we laugh, as we share stories and invoke God's grace. Here is my conversation with Kimberly Stewart. Kim, welcome to the podcast. So excited to have you on thank you so much for joining me.

Kimberly Stuart: 3:32

Oh, golly, it's so fun to be here. Thanks for the kind invitation.

Joshua Johnson: 3:36

Now, of course, you know, I'd love to figure out what is your relationship with grace, like in your life, as you you sat down, wrote your first nonfiction book, all about grace. And so what was your journey like with grace in your life?

Kimberly Stuart: 3:55

It's been a little slippery, I would say. I mean, I think that's just the nature of grace. It doesn't make sense to me. It's nonsensical. In fact, the math in my life is pretty predictable in every other space except for grace. And by that I mean, when I put forth effort into something, then I get paid, or in some way compensated right, whether that's at my job, or even in relationships, we don't really hang out in general in relationships where we put forth a bunch of effort and the other person eats bonbons and puts their feet up and never Jackson. So this idea of an unmerited gift, right, a gift that just is fully, completely whole and mine and I don't have to tap dance for it and I can't improve upon it. And I also can't take it away, just slips through my fingers. It just hasn't made sense to me, and I like things to make sense. So I'm a first born female. I really like boxes that I can check Golf, I make lists every day, Joshua. And then even if I'm if I do something that's not on the list, I, post event, write the item and then check it off. So that's the way I roll. Man, I love getting things done. And Grace just does not obey that system.

Joshua Johnson: 5:18

Yeah, I can feel Yeah, my wife does the same thing. She loves to check off box and saying, I got this done. I got this done. And that's her love language, I think is checking off boxes. So if I can do that, then I can show her this is love.

Kimberly Stuart: 5:34

That's right. I'm with her. Entertain,

Joshua Johnson: 5:38

as good so as so what is your then role then? As a are you a perfectionist? Are you somebody that wants to get straight A's? Make sure that you have all the all the things completed? How has that worked out?

Kimberly Stuart: 5:56

It worked out? The answer is yes. I love things to be completed. I like things to be done. Well. Sometimes the world cooperates sometimes I cooperate with that, and sometimes not. So I think that's been a huge part of me kind of holding Grace up into the light, spinning in a little bit, letting it catch different light in different seasons. And finding that over and over the grace of Jesus, the grace that God's got offers me through Jesus just does not abandon does not turn tail and run according to what I am doing. So that does not jive. With straight A's I have absolutely love. You know, there are plenty of instances in the Bible and Paul's very clear about this, that we are to pursue excellence right that we would work heartily as unto the Lord. So please don't hear me saying and now it's time for all of us to lay down on our beds, and say it's all done. We don't any longer need to do any good work, I think works great. I just somehow was picking up somewhere along the line. That work was a part of me gaining entrance to the throne of God, you know that when in Hebrews, the the writer says, you know, we get to approach this throne of grace with confidence. I added my own words to that, which was I need to spit shine my shoes and make sure I'm in presentable form before I go anywhere, much less to go talk to the God of the universe. I don't know that the people around me were saying this. I have phenomenal parents. They definitely were not saying this. And they were definitely not modeling this. But somewhere along the line, I definitely picked up that this must work. Like everything else works. So strap on the tap shoes. Baba,

Joshua Johnson: 7:52

I have a six year old that he is now in the space where I know that he he doesn't want to present something unless it's perfect. Like he's like, Oh, I messed up on this color and cheap. I need a brand new one. I'm going to start over. And it was like a small little mistake. And so I'm like, Oh man, you're gonna set yourself up for a lot of difficulty in life. How do we how do we start to speak into people's lives? Like what were what was happening in the your parents around you at an early age? How are you trying to instill that in your own children as they were growing up before? into a place where grace does exist? And it's okay. And you can't mess up and keep moving forward?

Kimberly Stuart: 9:19

Yeah, I think what's helpful for me for my own heart, and then also I have a couple to have three children are absolutely on the perfectionist roll, they would have their with your six year old, they would also say new sheet, and we ruined to this one. So I get it. We've got that in our house for sure. I think what's helpful for me is to think about that tendency as a gift, right? It's just there are some spaces in which that gift can become paralysis. So I really want my heart surgeon to be a perfectionist, I went, we went to go visit my daughter who's studying abroad right now we went on this very long plane ride to Spain, and I really wanted my pilot to be a perfectionist, I want that person to be overly cautious and talking about checking boxes, let's just go through all the boxes and then check them again. So there's a space for that. But it's a total ninja move right your son is going to have that's actually a really beautiful thing. The problem is if we drag that into every situation in every season, and it's a real problem if we drag it into the time that we spend with the Lord, who our prayer time into the way we approach, you know being with him and make it a checkbox situation instead of just being with him, which is you came to do and really messed up everybody else's ideas of this. So I would say your son has a beautiful gift. The question will be how he can leverage that in the right spot?

Joshua Johnson: 10:51

Oh, I hope he will really do. And I know he will. He'll be he'll be great. He has a really great father. So he's going

Kimberly Stuart: 10:58

to be yes. I don't see any problems that can occur. Yeah, exactly.

Joshua Johnson: 11:03

When we're talking about grace, this is it's a, it's a hard thing. Because we have totally misappropriated grace in, in our modern culture. And we just throw it out as a as a nice little platitude. We throw it up on our honored doors and say, you know, whatever, about grace. So what is what is grace? And how have we miss handled it? In our lives?

Kimberly Stuart: 11:32

Yeah, sometimes it's better, I think, to ask what it's not. And I agree with you. Once you see, I always think if you see a word on a pillow at TJ Maxx, it's time to brush the dust off. And remember, again, what was the original version? If I can pick up something with that it's 1499. Then I, you know, usually that means, Okay, it's time to take a look, again, I think what has happened, oftentimes, again, this is such a big and beautiful and profound and ancient idea. So that's the first piece like, we're not the first people to ask about this. I like reading a lot of writing of very dead, very old people. And it's funny how this comes up. I mean, we're talking 300 ad 65. AD, already, people are saying, Wait, what is this? What? How can we wrap our heads around this in our hearts around this? So the first piece is just to know, it's okay, that it's mysterious. Right? That that doesn't make it less true. In fact, probably more beautiful, and it's mystery. But it is a beautiful job, we have to try to kind of take the onion layers off and see what it is. There's a chapter in the book where we talk about what it's not. So I'd probably start there. It's not a weapon. I think oftentimes, folks have used that word as a weapon. So for example, I have a friend who was told to extend grace to her abusive husband for decades. And the end, the pastor said over and over, this is your job, you follow Jesus, you need to extend grace to this man. And so she has a had in his kind of unwrapping, still a very warped version of that word. So it's not a weapon. Grace is not something that keeps the lights off. I think grace works every one of them on and bust people out of prison instead of keeping them there. Grace is a I guess it for in my own story. Grace has been this soft spot where I can see myself so much more clearly. Because it's in the light of what God says. He thinks about me. So it's like the most specific thing I think that I found. That's another thing that I've I think somewhere along the right line, we got amazing grace associated with people in kilts at funerals. It's a beautiful song. And it's kind of a just a general amazing grace for everyone how sweet the sound. But every it's just like this blurry painting that God has made that he's just gracious to us. Capital, US humankind. And I think crease is so much more specific than that. The grace that I have felt God extend to me in my life has my name written on it. It's in a language I can understand. My dad, when he was about 25 ish, 26 he prayed this ridiculous prayer and said to God, I'm tired of going to church. And I'm tired of clocking in. This is pretty much the end of this for me, unless you show me that you're real. Not an appropriate prayer. I don't think you'd get any points for finesse. But it was very honest. And God responded to that prayer in a language that he understood. And for Him what that looked like was two weeks later, I was run over by a car in my neighbor's front yard in her driveway, and I had a bilateral skull fracture. And my dad who has medical training scooped up his little girl, which you're never supposed to do with a head injury. And we went to the hospital and the doctor said this is not good. She's it's a she will likely not function. And she she could just pass away this is not gonna go well for you. And that brazen guy who had asked God, are you real? You better show it to me. He got his answer in a language that he understood. and five days later, I was out of the hospital, I didn't have surgeries, I didn't even take Tylenol. The neurologist at my follow up appointment just kind of sat and shook his head and kept saying, I don't understand what this is when I'm yammering in the background talking and my two year old voice so that that story is an important story in my life, my dad 40 years later, still cannot tell it without crying. Because he knows that that shifted everything for him. I mean, talking about shifting culture, it shifted the culture of our family, for generations. And the reason that is so beautiful, in addition to what that gave us as a family, is that I just see that just the specificity of God in that moment. He knew my dad was not going a candlelight service, was a beautiful String Quartet wasn't going to do it for him. He can't he couldn't hear that. That's not who he is. So when you ask me what grace is, I think of stories like that, where they are so personal God is so absolutely intentionally detail oriented in the way that he explains himself to us. I just can't think of a kindness greater than that. So

Joshua Johnson: 16:51

kinds, you know, but when I when I was listening to that story, and when I was reading it in your book, I that's one of the biggest fears that I had. And when you know, my son was a baby. Yeah, it's like he's like, I really when I'm backing out of the driveway, I'm looking everywhere, making sure that he's not around. Yeah, scary. God being in the midst of that and you being perfectly okay, is such a miracle. Have you got a good? Got a good ringtone there too.

Kimberly Stuart: 17:27

I don't even know how that happened. I did recreate that I wouldn't be able to.

Joshua Johnson: 17:32

Like what is that? What is that?

Kimberly Stuart: 17:37

Picture of raycast we just came up on my computer and something happened. You got Rick rolled? Yeah, by Sheridan. Wow. Newly added this is Rick going to be it's gonna be probably love it.

Joshua Johnson: 17:55

He would love it. That's, that's perfect. It's absolutely perfect. But this is what happens. I think one, like what just happened now which I something strange happened it diffuses humor diffuses the the heaviness and the fear and helps us face what we're going through. A lot of times, you know, as you said, Hey, a candlelight service, a string quartet wasn't going to do it for your dad. He's going to it's going to take a miracle specific. A lot of times, to me specific what Jesus means Jesus isn't just solemn and serious all the time. Jesus also likes to have fun. And Jesus was show me that. It's okay to be yourself, to walk in the world as yourself. What's the role of humor for you and grace? And how does that that parallel in your life?

Kimberly Stuart: 18:52

I'm so glad you're bringing this up. humor was very much a part of my growing up. My mom is absolutely one of the funniest people I've ever met. And I know what you just said she did. So when things would get too hot, the temperature's going up. You know, she had three teenagers at one point and we all had so many words and so many feelings. She I would watch how she would crack a joke or say something funny, usually pretty self deprecating. And the the temperature would drop 15 degrees, right? We'd all remember oh, wait a minute. We have so much. We have so much here. You know, we're trampling over it. There's a lot of good stuff happening here. And so humor, I think is a superpower. And I don't know that we in face circles use it enough. My husband and I have often laughed about Dockers humor. And by that I mean for a long time in the 90s I feel like we would sit early 2000s We'd sit in church and our pastor who we loved this was in another city. I want to be very clear on my current pastor although I think he does own Dockers would wear pleated Dockers when he preached and he would tell a joke that was absolutely categorically not funny. But we would all agree that we were nice Christians and we would politely laugh like a golf clap laugh. You know, I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking about here tonight. For sure, and I'm telling you we are super supportive of our pastors. They have the worst and hardest job so that is a full stop sentence. And it is really tough to be funny in church. But pulley humor is medicine. bout Solomon's take on it right? And so the thing with humor is that you can offend people. So that's why I'm nervous. Yeah, yeah. And we don't do it, I think we're missing out. So the stories in this book, the story, I'm a story uncover by nature, I just like to hear people's stories like to tell a good story. And I've watched, I know you've done I've know, you've seen this to Joshua, that you in a room, you tell a joke, or you say something funny, or someone else says something funny. There's something that happens. It's like this shared experience. And all of a sudden, everybody's shoulders relax and relax, right? And we decide, oh, we're in this together. It's, it's miraculous every time. So if I want to talk about grace, which is profound and deep and beautiful, and a little hard to get my hands around, if I can invite you into the room with something that makes you laugh, then we feel like we can be together a little bit. And I there's a trust building piece that happens there too. Like, oh, we've shared that. I don't know why I'm sure there's some there are, you know, psychologist or neuroscientists who have pinpointed what happens in the brain with that, but something happens, something happens that won't last.

Joshua Johnson: 21:53

Those people, they they're not very funny. But they do know what happens when we're

Kimberly Stuart: 22:01

totally it's a data collection situation. But oh, it does happen, you know, that, that we've seen it over and over. And you've I mean, I'm sure with your son and his friends, and definitely two kids in high school and one in college, I watch when they get together with their friends. If they're laughing, that night goes longer, right? Not that there's not a space for in fact, usually the laughter is first. We're even sandwiches, right? laugh together, go deeper together. And then laugh as you say goodbye. There's something really beautiful about that rhythm. I think we should do it more.

Joshua Johnson: 22:35

We do need to do it more. I was teaching a class on the history of missions. And afterwards, when I left, I had somebody come up to me and said, I don't know why people weren't laughing. I was laughing at all your jokes. They were funny. And I was laughing on the inside. And I'm like, why are we just laughing on the inside? You gotta laugh out loud. You gotta help me out here. And then I go. I taught the same class the next night. And everybody was laughing. Oh, finally, it was so fun. You know, such a different room. Yeah. But yeah, man that laughter is so important. And I think one of the things is that seriousness, I think, even so, if you think about the crazy political nature of our country, the United States at the moment, that people are offended, if you say anything, and sell jokes, and defuse things with humor, everything is so serious, right? And it would heal us. If we laughed. 100 That's where the grace comes. Yeah, you actually have grace for somebody when we can laugh together. Yeah, because right now, we don't think we can laugh together. We are there. Because they believe something different than we believe. Yeah. We can't laugh together. How do we how do we show grace one to another? Through the laughter? Is that something that's possible? How can that heal us?

Kimberly Stuart: 24:07

Absolutely. It's possible. In fact, I think it's imperative. I live in Iowa. Okay. We have political calls to have every four year cycle like it's just constant,

Joshua Johnson: 24:19

right? It's crazy. And I'm sorry. Yeah, it's absolutely nuts. Oh, pants and I really

Kimberly Stuart: 24:26

Yeah, it's, it's a deal. But you know what I noticed when caucus time comes around and we all go to these little you know, the neighborhood gym or the neighborhood precinct. And we get together it's actually really old school you like write it on? It's like, it's like student council elections. We write a person on paper, put it in a bowl. I said, I'm looking outside because I sit with all my neighbors. And we are howling the whole time making jokes chatting about you know, things that matter to us. It is not get heated at all, because we love each other. And I don't it does not matter one bit to me, Mrs. X, what, who you're voting for because tomorrow I'm going to be walking my dog past your house. And we are friends. So I think sometimes what we see in the news or on social media and and think oh my gosh, everyone hates each other. No one is agreeing. Typically, when we get back to the 5050 feet in front of our house, the two houses around us. That's a lot harder to make a case that everything is gone haywire, because actually, I like these people. I don't really care how they're voting. I and just have fun with them and have them over for coffee, or for dinner. And we don't, we don't need to all be in the same space where we're voting and we can laugh together. So absolutely, that is probably the most healing thing we can do, honestly, because the shared laughter can kind of cover over a bunch of differences. That in some sugary saccharin way, you know, I'm not saying break out your joke book. Typically, the better idea is to listen, right to listen longer, especially to the people who are driving you bonkers. And then be able to kind of moonwalk out of the, the harder or the more conflict ridden place, by typically poking a little fun at yourself. Right? That's, I think what we're missing, it's not just that we're so serious is that we've forgotten that we are totally flawed, right? Are so I'm here to talk about everybody else's issues. make a joke about your own darn self and see how that goes. Typically, that helps people feel like Oh, that's right. We're all here together. Yeah. For

Joshua Johnson: 26:44

me, I don't do well is I could extend grace to lots of different people. And I could embody Jesus that way. I could say, here's some grace, Jesus is gonna give it to you, I'm gonna give it to you. He's going to actually help turn your life around. I'm not gonna do much, but I'm gonna give you some grace. But I can't give myself grace. I can't get my own inner monologue or my inner thoughts into the space of saying, I am enough. And Jesus loves me. Even though I'm a screw. Yep. How do I extend grace to myself? There in my inner monologue?

Kimberly Stuart: 27:26

Oh, yeah, that's the doozy. Right? I think when I started thinking about writing about grace, I thought, who's not gonna love grace, we could use more of it, right. And then, at some point, I started having to spend way too much time with this idea, I realized I had a very narrow view of it. I thought Grace would be a really great thing, as you said, to extend to the people in my life who need it. Preferably people who I don't have a lot of contact with, right, just like some drive by grace, I like great drive by grace is really fun. Second would be, as I say, in the book that drinks the difficult people who just don't leave you, they could be in your family, they could be in the carpool lane, the people who are, you know, kind of AP grace, but maybe the hardest is to me, it might admit that might be temperament. You know, your six year old and I might have some have some real estate they're together? I don't know. But it does seem like we have in general even for non perfectionist, we seem to have a difficult time holding fast to this idea that God finished this work. We're just coming out of Easter. You No, I I just think his I don't know that it becomes it could become any more important to me, the longer I live, that one of the last things Jesus said was, it's done. It is finished, the work I had is finished. Because most of my life, I have insisted that he was almost finished and that I need to help him with the last 10 or 15%. Right, thanks. I'll take it from here God, right. So in a really beautiful white, that would be my own kind of misguided intentions and a little more sinister light, it would be me deciding that I disagree with God, and that God actually isn't finished and that he is wrong. And I don't want to be in that in that pool. Right? I don't want to be opposing this beautiful work that he's already done. So typically, when I'm having a hard time extending grace to myself, I find it's very helpful for me to think about how I would talk to my children or to someone that I love. If I have a tape playing in my head and tape just shows you how old I am that I have taped

Joshua Johnson: 29:51

and you're on hands so that if it comes out of the cassettes, you could twirl it back in and get

Kimberly Stuart: 30:00

better believe recording off the radio. So I have my mixtape for Dan Johnson and fourth period. Okay. If that tape is on a loop, and I get there right with with yours and time asking Jesus what he thinks about me this has become less frequent, but it absolutely still pops up. If the narrative is something that is in opposition to what God has said about me that I am beloved, that I am his that I'm absolutely never alone. That there is something beautiful that he has for me. My own name is A name that he and I will talk about when we meet that he only knows that he adds his name. For me, that's an revelation. Like, there are these beautiful things that he's already said about me. When I start disagreeing with that, and deciding, well, but don't you think I should have her life? Don't you think I should run that fast? Don't you think I should feel shame about what I have been before what I've done before? Don't you think my worth actually is absolutely on par with what I'm doing my either my productivity or my own view of righteousness, right? I mean, I can fill that basket fast. When that tape starts to play. If I can take just a second and stop and say, how would I say this? How would I talk to Ana? My 21 year old about her? What would I say to fear who's 15? And sitting in French class right now? How would I respond to Mitch? If he said to me, you know, I think I'm pretty much worthless, or you know what, I think my sin defines me. I would come out with guns blazing, to correct that right? In kindness and gentleness and to but ferocity say absolutely not, you're listening to a voice that is not the one that made you. So let's make sure you can tune your ear in your heart to Him. If I think about that conversation, and can just gently put that toward myself and think actually, the way God talks to me and about me, is a lot more in line with how I would talk to Mitch right now than what I'm doing to me, that seems to clarify and sifts through what's actually true. And what I'm agreeing with, right, what I'm taking to myself, that actually is just a pile of hooey. And

Joshua Johnson: 32:23

you tell yourself that there's a pile of hooey over and over again, you're gonna see you don't actually know that you're being lied to. You just believe it. Right? believe those lies over and over again. And yeah, hearing the voice of God and being attuned to it is necessary to extend that grace. And you said, Hey, we're, we're at Easter, It is finished. But then, hey, where we live in the in between? And where the consummation isn't here yet. So there's a lot of Death and Decay Sin is still rampant in the world. It there's some ugliness and but it is finished. How do you how do we reconcile your where we are in the story, that we know that it's finished, but it's not yet? Yeah. How do we? How do we live in grace when there's still all this junk happening and rampant out there?

Kimberly Stuart: 33:22

I mean, I am no theologian, and I am no expert. I have a chair in the room where I am right now. And I'm looking over there with my readers because I'm elderly, and my Bible, and I sit there in the early mornings to remind me, what is true. What is true. You're right, we are in the not yet for sure. But everything I've seen in my story, and in the story of humanity is that God does what He says he's going to do. I was thinking about that Easter weekend this year. There's this moment where the angel says to the women at the tomb, he's risen, just as he said. And I kept thinking, just as he said, why that an angel saying just as he said, and I know it's, it was ringing a bell, because that's exactly what happens in Luke's gospel, when the shepherds go home, marveling and praising God. And I'm just shocked that it happened, Just as the angels said, just as God had said, through the angels, this is what I'm going to do. Bank on it brothers. He says that again, at the tomb, when you start to like, pull that thread starting in Genesis all the way, sometimes what God says he's going to do takes hundreds of years, even millennia. But he always does it. He always does. I was in this Bible study years ago, where we went through the whole thing. And it was a lot. It was a lot of like, I mean, there were a lot of homework every week. And it was pretty intense. And that probably was the drumbeat that I took out of it, because we would go real deep, real specific. And over and over again, God would say, I'm going to do this. And then the writer of the study would point us to where he did it. So I mean, this is the law of consistent behavior. We don't do that very well as humans. So it's very hard for us to imagine that what He says He will always do, he will. So when he says this is rescue, this is redemption. This is restoration. I'm on it. I get to choose whether or not I believe that he will do that. But so far when I look behind me, he has this week of faithfulness. I just think that's who he is. I don't know but he I don't think he's capable of being anything but faithful. So in the waiting in the not yet, that's where I'm, that's where I'm planting my feet and my heart. Just make sense. Hmm. Easy, by the way, etc, right? Plenty of hard things and suffering and people that we know. And people in super, super close to me that are walking in the absolute midst of every valley of every shadow of every death. It is brutal. It is brutal. And we know, we know that this isn't new, right? We watched Jesus come to the tomb of his friend and bellow, like a wild animal. That's what that word means he was angry at death. So we are not alone and feeling like what in the world is happening? Is this it? This is what we have here. Right? We're not alone in that. And it's not over, the story is not over.

Joshua Johnson: 36:46

Doesn't that seem like Grace To You is Jesus weeping, where others that weep for his friends, as grief is happening, that we get to sit and weep together and be together. That's, that's an extension of grace. That's something I want to move into.

Kimberly Stuart: 37:09

When you were talking earlier about how you remember, you have to remember that Jesus wasn't just, you know, with his symptoms, I think art has done us wrong with his curled hair, and plastic expression. In all of these paintings, you can forget, he laughed his head off with the disciples and with his friends. And he also wept he he was fully fully fully human. And what a beautiful extension of grace because of all the people in that scene, Jesus knew where Lazarus was headed, right? He had an actual experience of eternity, and where full restoration happens. And yet he mourned with those who mourn. He absolutely entered into that. If that's not grace, I don't know. What is

Joshua Johnson: 37:58

your you're a writer. And you're good writer, too.

Kimberly Stuart: 38:03

Thank you.

Joshua Johnson: 38:05

You're a good writer. What's this? What's the role of narrative for us in our lives? And I mean, you could throw in like, as at risk, we sponsor grace, narrative grace. But I think even knowing where we are in the story of God is important as narrative. So in all of what we're talking about, why is narrative important? And what's the role of narrative?

Kimberly Stuart: 38:34

Well, I take heart as a person who loves story, I take heart in the fact that Jesus did not stand on the temple steps with a 10 point with bullet points, a brochure of dogma or doctrine, that was not his gig, he did not stand in front of people and say, Okay, let's turn to page 40. And we're going to make our way through this technical manual. He told stories about, you know, a boy who scandalized his parents took all of the money that was due to him after his dad's death, and went to eat with pigs. He told stories about a woman who lost something that was so so valuable to her and just absolutely, in every corner of her house, worked until she found it again, she I mean, we, we have a little bit of a distance from this. So we forget, they're so familiar to us now that we forget, these are stories, this is narrative over and over. And the purpose of the narrative was to help us put flesh and bones on what it means to to know and to love God. So Jesus did I feel like we can do it. Like, I feel like and we all know this, right? When we've heard a talk or a sermon, and you kind of zone out, maybe just for a little hot second. And then the speaker says, you know, this reminds me of a time when I was in a car with my daughter, and then we pick up because something happens with story. So for grace in the purpose or the, the beauty of grace, I mean, money is a purpose that sounds bullet pointy, the glory, the weight of grace, I think just gets heavier and more profound when we share our story. There's something unique about your story and my story and the stories of our listeners, that there's only one lens, there's only one person who lived with that. And so, I mean, we talked before about people having a hard time getting a long story usually diffuses some of that tension. It's very difficult to poopoo someone who says, Well, this is this was my life. This is how this worked. Right? If I start out by saying, let's talk about a few steps to sanctification. And I want to really go over that open Romans, there is a crowd that will go there with you. But usually that crowd already loves Romans, that people who don't know Jesus yet or haven't held fast to grace, yeah, and even people who do know Jesus and have forgotten grace, we can have a totally different conversation. If you start out by saying, here is the pivot point, when I realized there was nothing I could do to earn the favor of God, I was completely at his mercy. And boy, what a great thing. Right? I was on the corner of such and such, and this is what happened. I was in my living room at 3am. And this is what happened. Like, when you enter the personal space of a story, the conversation gets richer, and it gets way more honest. Immediately. It says it's a superpower. And I love it. And I think I'm not the first thing because obviously, God could have revealed himself in so many ways, and you use the storybook. So yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 41:44

I know. It's crazy. It's amazing. I mean, I don't I can't tell you how many living rooms I've sat in, especially Syrian refugee living rooms, where were you just told stories, stories of God at work in our own lives, stories of Jesus from the Bible. And stories are the things that draw people. And it was story after story after story. And we, I mean, I need to remind myself that Jesus stories are happening to me all the time. And I could tell those stories constantly. And you tell a lot of those stories in your book. And it is different for you than you have in the past. In the past, if you have written novels, written a lot of fiction, this is your first foray into nonfiction. Did you have a vulnerability hangover? What was it like? baring your soul? At present, I do have a vulnerability hangover. How is it to bare your soul? As you know, previously, you're telling, you know, fictionalized stories, now you're telling your own story of how God's grace has met you? What was that? Like? How is that different than than fiction?

Kimberly Stuart: 42:57

Well, even hearing you ask that question makes me wonder again, it wasn't so good. You create characters, you can just kill them off, you know, chapter six, it's not going well. Well, Aunt Irma, sorry to see you go. But you cannot do it when you're telling true stories. And Irma is really fully a part of your family forever. So in some ways, writing my own story easier because I lived it in my I didn't have to, you know, I could just inhabit the scene really, and tell what I saw. But in other ways, just as you said, Oh, heavens to Betsy, this is not a book of tiptoeing. I wouldn't I didn't do a lot of tiptoeing. I really told some stories that were really stories I didn't want to write, right. And those usually are the stories that readers talk about more to you right to say I needed freedom like that, too. So I know that there is a cost and that the cost is worth it. But there is a cost for sure. For the storytelling, I leaned very much into some of the fiction things, you know, fiction, tips and tricks that I've used many times there's dialogue there scene, building a lot of like the arc of a story, I feel pretty comfortable with that. So in some ways, I had some of those tools that I had been using for a while, but nothing really has prepared me for, again, as you say that just the vulnerability hangover, the idea that wow, these have been in my head in my heart for a long time, but I've been able to choose when I let them out of the bag, and now they are fully on heavyweight paper in hardback form. So you and I are talking pre released, so maybe call me in about six months and asked me if it was worth it. I'll let you know.

Joshua Johnson: 44:57

I think it was worth it. I mean, it's a it's a wonderful book, and I really enjoyed it. So as people are going to start to pick up your book, what is your hope for your readers? What do you hope that they would get out of this? Oh,

Kimberly Stuart: 45:15

you asked really wonderful questions. You're very good podcast hosts and also transitions are phenomenal. That's hard to do. I'm just calling it out right here that's really hard to do well, so what I've done. My hope for the reader is twofold. One is lighter in that I really hope that he or she laughs Maybe cries a couple times and just It sits and kind of, again, brushes that dust off of this beautiful word. I hope it's a book of, I hope that the storytelling opens the door really wide to the room. And then on a on a more, I don't know, I would say profound, but I don't feel like a profound person, a deeper and maybe more lasting hope, really would be that the reader would remember again, the ridiculous, beautiful way tea, gift of grace, and that that he or she would be able to put aside the math that we keep attaching to it right either adding to it here, God, I will help you and perform for you. And this is going to make you like me more, or subtracting and deciding who gets grace. Were constantly with this abacus deciding how to let grace be less than it is. And my hope would be for my own heart and for the heart of the reader. That grace really would be allowed to flourish and be amazing. It's still amazing, this grace that we sing about and read about and nod our heads about. And I want it to sink in deep and grow roots in our lives.

Joshua Johnson: 47:00

That's beautiful. I you know, as I was reading that, I was like, hey, there's some people that that need to read this book. And then I finally realized, oh, this book is for me, I need to read this book. I need I need the grace. That's. And I think a lot of times we often think, oh, that grace over there is for the rich over there when it's not to read like for us like we have, we got our nice little life that we can control. And we're okay. And we don't need it. But we really do. And we need it. So I need this book. And it was it was great. And so thank you for letting me laugh. Along with you. And let me Yeah, cry tears with you. It's a it's a beautiful work. So thank you. Thank you for that.

Kimberly Stuart: 47:52

That's kind words, I just feel hold them. Thank you so much. You

Joshua Johnson: 47:57

are welcome. I have a couple questions I like to ask here at the end. One is if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Kimberly Stuart: 48:08

Wow, 21. You know, I mentioned I have a 21 year old daughter. And so I feel like in many ways, we're having all the conversations that I did at that time with my mother. So this is fresh 21 year old me I would love to encourage her to relax and take a breath kid, you're hearing a theme here, I was very intent on doing the right thing. And in some ways, that is just such a great, great impulse to have. But it also can make you second guess everything in your effort to do it well. So that would probably be one of the things I said to myself. I would also say you're getting married in a couple of years, I really would recommend that when you go move to Costa Rica with Mark. Just you don't even have to get a job. You know why? Because you are going to work way too hard. Earn $14 a day and you should just go travel more. That's probably what I would say to her. That's timely. That's a timestamp issue for

Joshua Johnson: 49:13

I agree. And so, go travel, enjoy Costa Rica see the world and just live your life and enjoy it. Yeah, you're only you really are only on once and

Kimberly Stuart: 49:28

it's not now. The ones on

Joshua Johnson: 49:31

the young youth is wasted on the young. That would have been fun. I should go back. I'd love to go back and go and explore and live. Okay, let's do it. Is there a time machine?

Kimberly Stuart: 49:44

Not that I know of, but if you find one, will you forward it to my house?

Joshua Johnson: 49:48

I will. I will. That's got anything you've been reading or watching lately. You could recommend.

Kimberly Stuart: 49:54

Oh, always. I just had a conversation earlier today with the author of this beautiful memoir. Her name is Katherine James and she wrote a book called A Prayer for Orion. And the subtitle is a son's addiction and a mother's love and I don't know a lot about the world of addiction. I don't know a lot about parenting in that space. And this book is so beautiful, so beautifully written so honest and tender. I just I absorbed it more than I read it. So that was it. She's a Katherine James. She's just a wonderful, wonderful author. And then I'm also so enjoying. I really am Joshua this is going to be a confession time. I'm loving watching the Great British baking show with my family. There are only so many things that we will all watch together. And I can't even explain to you why we do. I don't make a lot of bread. I do bake. But I mark is so funny because he and I will sit down. We'll be like, let's just go watch the Brits a little bit. They can't even be mean to each other. They say things like chuffing, heck, I hope that's not a cuss word somewhere else. I don't think it is. It's like so like, most angry. We love it. And then Mark and Mitch will pretend like they're not interested in they're always hovering. There'll be behind the couch pacing. And I'll hear one of them say, Wow, awesome. That's a great cupcake. So I'm a fan. I think it's like the best escape. You can jump in at any time. And you'll see them politely beating each other in competition and so fun.

Joshua Johnson: 51:26

That's so good. And yes, you we all need that. Yes. We need their skills. And yes, and we can escape to this great confectionery and England. And

Kimberly Stuart: 51:40

we'll be right with the world. Great. Yes. Yeah. I love it. As

Joshua Johnson: 51:45

you have been working with writers and coaching, when you have interaction with somebody, when we speak to somebody hat, how does Grace come across somebody that you are coaching? Like, when do you actually feel like, oh, this person exudes grace? What is that? Like? How can you pinpoint what people are like? Or how they have responded? Or what have they embodied in themselves that then exudes that grace?

Kimberly Stuart: 52:20

Yeah, this really goes back to what you were asking before about story, and how that the idea of story automatically opens the door to grace. And so I work with a lot of writers who are writing their stories and trying to get them out of their heads onto paper, hopefully, with a barcode eventually. And they extend a lot of grace to me as a coach and a kind of a compatriot. And I see with my interactions with them, it took me a bit to get in to remember that what's most helpful in all conversation, but particularly in writing cut conversation, is to listen a long time. So my impulse might be, oh, let's talk about how this paragraph could be better. And we go there we, I mean, I coach with a great guy named Bob. And he and I have different gifts, he is just phenomenal at vision and strategy. And like helping people really get the plane up and landed. And my gifting or my strength is to really look word by word, paragraph by paragraph help people get some organization into all the thoughts that have been usually whirling around for quite a while. So I, it's an instinct to me to look at, okay, how can we make this paragraph sparkly? And how can I help you shape this chapter or this section or this book, and we get there. But I think the best way to get there after doing it for a while is actually to listen hard and long first to story. And to to ask more questions than to say, here's how to fix it. Because those conversations usually end up being part story, part writing, part punctuation, part crafting, and also part therapy part Listening part. I mean, something happens when you're writing that it's just a very, we write things typically that we've wrestled with, and sometimes we write about traumatic or hard things to make sense of them. So if I'm doing my job well, I'm really listening to the words underneath the words and hearing for listening for where did this start middle and end and maybe you're living it now but tell me more. That usually gets a deduces better writing, but also, as you've just beautifully said, it also induces a whole cloak of grace around the whole conversation. It's a beautiful thing to be a part of.

Joshua Johnson: 54:51

How can people connect with you? How can people go out and get your book star for Jesus and other jobs? I quit. Wherever you like, I want people to

Kimberly Stuart: 55:02

connect with me. I would love for you to connect with me. I hang out on Instagram at Kimberley dot Stewart dot writes, love to see you there. And then to get the book really wherever books are sold. We just heard this week. I haven't even said this publicly. This is a really great announcement. That target is putting it in all of its book brick and mortar stores across the nation this summer. So that's fun. Yeah, that's a really fun thing. So if you're a target shopper and you spend way too much money there is it that would be one option, but also Amazon, Barnes and Noble, any all of your Indie stores that I also love so dearly. Be great. Thank you, My children. Thank you. My college fund thinks you

Joshua Johnson: 55:45

I'm supposed to start a college fund for my son.

Kimberly Stuart: 55:51

Joshua, we'll do that later. And yes, today.

Joshua Johnson: 55:56

Good. Well, Kim, thank you for this conversation. It was a blast. I really loved walking through some of your story, walking through grace, figuring out what does it look like to live in the in between and knowing that what God has said, comes to pass and he has said it. So thank you. This was fantastic. Again, some time.

Kimberly Stuart: 56:19

Oh, I'd love it. Thank you so much for the kind invitation such a thoughtful conversation. I appreciate it.