Ep. 183 Yolanda Solomon - Effective Discipleship: Encountering Jesus, Loving Others Well

In this episode, Yolanda Solomon shares what effective discipleship looks like. It’s important to encounter Jesus' beauty and person rather than focus on behavior modification. She highlights examples of communal and experiential discipleship, navigating cultural biases by focusing on Jesus, and understanding identity and authority in Christ. We also talk about justice and embodiment through following Jesus' care for the poor and marginalized, as well as moving discipleship from a classroom model to more participatory experiences and apprenticeship. So join us as we discover what effective discipleship looks like.

Yolanda Solomon is the Director of Discipleship at Epiphany Church in Brooklyn, N.Y. where she teaches and creates discipleship curriculum and resources. She has also worked in campus ministry at Columbia University in New York where she was blessed to serve undergraduate students for eight years. Yolanda recently published her first book entitled "Discipleship as Holy Collaboration: Helping Others Follow Jesus in Real Life" which is available for pre-order and will be released in May 2024. Yolanda is a disciple of Christ, a Brooklyn native and a lifelong Knicks fan which richly fuels her prayer life.

Yolanda's Book:
Discipleship as Holy Collaboration

Yolanda's Recommendations:
Holy Imagination
Black Liturgies

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Living God's Way in an Ungodly World
In a world that makes up its own rules, Christians need to focus on Who rules! The Christ!

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Transcript

Yolanda Solomon: 0:00

discipleship is receiving the invitation receiving Jesus's invitation to participate in the divine life, right to to literally follow him to follow in his footsteps. And what that requires is an encounter with Jesus it it requires an encounter with the beauty and the person of Jesus.

Joshua Johnson: 0:35

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcasts in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy. It only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show. I've included only Oka Wahby Jessie Cruickshank and Jonathan Tremaine, Thomas, you go back, listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Yolanda Solomon ulanda is the director of discipleship at epiphany church in Brooklyn, New York, where she teaches and creates discipleship, curriculum and resources. She has also worked in campus ministry at Columbia University in New York, where she was blessed to serve undergraduate students for eight years. ulanda recently published her first book titled discipleship as holy collaboration, helping others follow Jesus in real life. It's available. Now, Yolanda is a disciple of Christ, a Brooklyn native and a lifelong Knicks fan, which richly fuels her prayer life. ulanda shares what effective discipleship looks like in this conversation. It's important to encounter Jesus's beauty in person rather than just focus on behavior modification. And in this conversation, she highlights examples of communal and experiential discipleship, navigating cultural biases by focusing on Jesus and understanding identity and authority in Christ. We also talk about justice and embodiment through following Jesus's care for the poor and the marginalized, as well as moving discipleship from a classroom model to more participatory experiences and apprenticeship. So, join us as we discover what effective discipleship looks like. Here is my conversation with ulanda Solomon ulanda. Welcome to shifting culture. Really excited to have you on thank you so much for joining me.

Yolanda Solomon: 3:06

Oh, it's my pleasure, Joshua. Thank you for having me.

Joshua Johnson: 3:09

Yeah, this book discipleship is holy collaboration. It's fantastic. You do a great job of bringing it from a what we thought maybe discipleship is an intellectual exercise of information, but bringing it actually into a practical following of Jesus, what's it look like to follow Jesus together? As a community of believers and one another as a mentor? mentee? It's fantastic. I love it. So as an introduction to you, and some of what you mean by discipleship, can you tell me a story about how you were discipled? That's fantastic.

Yolanda Solomon: 3:48

Yeah, no, I mean, I've been discipled. In many ways. I grew up in a predominantly black church in Brooklyn, New York. And you know, I think discipleship is a word that I think I learned a little later on in life. We didn't really call it discipleship. Growing up, it was just, you know, Sunday school. I had great Sunday school teachers, one of my fondest memories, as a child is our youth pastor, Reverend Carl, Dara saw, who prays God is still with us on the communion Sundays, which was the first Sunday in the Baptist Church. We would go after church to nursing homes, and we would and you know, we're teenagers, right? And we would go with the deacons and the youth pastor and, and Reverend Doris or one of the deacons would give a brief summation of the sermon, they would give Communion to you know, we called our sick and shut in members. And we would sing a hymn and, you know, back then, I remember like that feeling super special. And I remember feeling like, this is different than sitting in church and hearing a sermon, and I didn't have words to put to it, I wouldn't have called Hold it then embodied worship. But like, even then I knew there was something about following Jesus with people in like, with all my senses, like there was something about going to the nursing home, there was something about singing about the drinking of the grape juice and holding, you know, the soft and wrinkled hand of an elderly. And just seeing the joy, you know, in their faces and me feeling like this, this feels different than sitting and receiving, like I'm doing something I'm participating is thing that is bringing joy and bringing life, you know, and it's not hard. You know, it's not it's like, you know, so yeah, I don't know if that makes sense. But that's one example of discipleship. I think another example would be, you know, as an older person, you know, a young adult. What I think most people what will come to mind when most people think of discipleship, I'm in 1999, I'm in college. I, you know, I went to college in upstate New York, but I knew I wanted to work in television and radio, and my college had a Internship Program, where you would live out in Los Angeles for a semester. And so I did I, you know, wanted to decide, am I going to live in New York, or am I going to live in LA. And so when I went out there, there was a young woman who was a member of my same church back in Brooklyn. And she's, you know, by this time, she's a successful actress, she's on a sitcom. And she basically, I would say, discipled me without me knowing it. I'm know a 20 year old, aspiring screenwriter at the time, you know, and I've got my plans to go out there and shoes and get a job after graduation. I was ready. You know, what my$75 a week paycheck, you know, and I'm stocking Diet Cokes in the fridges of the executives and I'm, you know, dreaming of fame and fortune. And she just loved me and I say in the book, in my book, that the one of the most loving and Christlike things she did for me was drive through LA traffic to come get me pick me up helped me to get groceries and bring me home because I do know

Joshua Johnson: 7:05

that LA traffic is no joke. And I

Yolanda Solomon: 7:07

did not know it's not Brooklyn, you know, saying like, I had no clue. I didn't even have a driver's license. That's how New York City I am Who needs a driver's license. And so I was like, how am I going to get groceries? So anyhow, her name is Ariana Johnson. And she would just come get me. You know, when I got out there. She was the first person I called. I called her because I wanted her to connect me with our friends in the industry. But God had other plans, I say, and she loved me. And I say that she showed me Jesus. She showed me what Jesus looked like with her life. And eventually she did invite me to church, but really, she would just listen she was an ear. She was she allowed me to just you know, she shared her community with me. I didn't know anyone out in LA. And I got to see Jesus through her life. She was working for her church at the time. She's a trained dancer, as well as an actress. You know, she'd done Alvin Ailey and Martha Harkness ballet, excuse me. I believe Martha Grimm as well. And she was laying down her gifts to serve her church. But I say she also served me. She one of the things I remember is, she was never different. She never switched up, whether she was around her industry friends, and, you know, she'd been in movies with, you know, a list actors, or whether she was just in the car with me going to Trader Joe's, she was the same person. And I was secretly like admiring that about her. I didn't let her you know, I was too cool to let on. But she was sneakily modeling a very Christ like life in front of me. And I say, like, she didn't have to, like she was cool. You know, I mean, like, and she just had options to do other things. And I remember just thinking, like, she's probably the happiest person I know, out here. You know, I'm interning for a major production company. I'm interning for a, you know, a TV sitcom called Dawson's Creek, I'm, I'm dating myself here. And all of these executives and these people I want to be like, and I'm realizing this woman has so much joy, whether she's working or not, which I found out was a big deal in LA. And she just seems to just have this even keel joy about her. And she just made it following Jesus look fun. Yeah, so that's a little bit there.

Joshua Johnson: 9:22

I think those those are great examples of discipleship. What does it look like for you to embody that other people embody it make it part of their entire life? So when we think of discipleship, and you think of what Jesus modeled, what is discipleship and what is it not? Wow.

Yolanda Solomon: 9:39

I'll start with what it isn't. I was one of the things I say is discipleship is not behavior modification. And the reason I say this is I work as the director of discipleship at our local church here in Brooklyn epiphany church. And so what will happen on a Sunday is people To someone who come up to me after church and say, Hey, can we talk, hey, let's schedule a conversation. So we, you know, I'll call them and they'll say, ulanda, I want to pray better. ulanda I want to follow Jesus more, you know, I want to do better. You know, I want to read my Bible more. And in and this awesome iteration, they're off. And what they're saying is, I want to be a better Christian, I want to act like a better Christian, I want to be a Dave, like a better Christian. And at that moment, I can give them a list of things to do, which is usually what they want, you know, they want here's, what are some tips and tools I can, you know, use to read my Bible more, to pray more, even when I don't want to, like how can I discipline myself, these are the words they use, you know, like, I don't really have the self control, and I wouldn't be more disciplined. And honestly, that would probably make my job a lot easier. But But what those things it doesn't touch their hearts. And so what I believe discipleship is, is discipleship is receiving the invitation, receiving Jesus's invitation to participate in the divine life, right to to literally follow him to follow in his footsteps. And what that requires is an encounter with Jesus, it it requires an encounter with the beauty and the person of Jesus. And so what I usually do is start asking them questions, like, What do you mean, when you say, pray better? What do you mean? And usually, when it gets down to it, it's like, I don't really have the desire to do these Christian things. And I feel guilty, and I feel ashamed. And and so then that's helpful, because now this gets us to a place of, alright, well, let's deal with that. And one of the places I love to take people is to like John chapter seven, where Jesus says, you know, if anyone thirst, you know, come to me and shrink. And what that does is it reminds us that Jesus cares about our desires, Jesus actually knows that following him has more to do with what we love than what we know. Right? Usually people want like some doctrine, they want some information, they want some tips, they want some scriptures to memorize. And it's like, Nah, Jesus, like, I know you have desires, bring them to me, or bring or even better bring your lack of desire to me. And, and as you encounter me, let me transform you and transform who, what and how you love, progressively. And so now this moves the conversation to what are some practices that shape your love? What are some practices that are going to shape, who, what and how you love and then let's look at how Jesus loves, let's look at, like, you know, let's look at Jesus's work life balance. I like to say, you know, like, what is what is Jesus love, and you know, you read, we will go through some scriptures, and it's like, wow, Jesus loves people. Jesus really seems to love people. Well, how, like, how does this happen? You know? And so from there, I think, you know, let me try to sum it up. Just if discipleship is receiving an invitation, receiving Jesus's invitation to follow to follow in his footsteps I need to look at, well, how does Jesus walk? How does Jesus walk? And how does how Jesus walk, shapes how Jesus loves, you know it, and through that we get to Okay, now let's look at what's shaping how you love, and it's usually men, fantasy sports is, you know, happy hour is, you know, my success or my job is shaping how I love, you know, you know, shopping is shaping how I love, you know, how I view the future and now we can in a way that's not, you know, condemning people, or trying to beat them up, getting them to see how, what they do shapes how they love. And what if sanctification is more about what we love changing progressively over time, then what we know. So yeah, hopefully that was helpful. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 14:13

I think that's it. That's a helpful distinction. Because if we we know that our nose, our our kn o W's our knowledge doesn't transform us if we have it, disembodied from the rest of our life. If it's not connected to the rest of our life, then we can't transform. Yeah, you know, Paul does say be renewed by the transforming of your mind. But part of that, I think is thinking about okay, the transformation happens when we're starting to act different and do different and be different. It with our relationships, our loves our relationship with Jesus and with one another. Like

Yolanda Solomon: 14:59

as you're speaking is wild because I'm thinking about like, in John chapter 13, Jesus washes the disciples feet. Right? And this is part of this upper room discourse, where it's like his last few words, it's like, you know, what would you say if you had 24 hours with your disciples, Jesus washes their feet. And then he says, Make this a pattern, right? I'm paraphrasing, like, like, what I'm how I'm serving you, and how I'm loving you. Is, is what I want you to make a pattern after I'm on. And why would he do that? I think Jesus knows that there is this. There is this relationship between the doing and beloved, like, every time you do what I did for you, every time you wash someone's feet, rather woods, metaphorically, or whether it's a literal footwashing, you're going to remember my love for you. And it's going to transform how you even view serving, because you're serving is going to be it's going to flow from, you know, you're you're you're being loved by me and what that has done to you, and how that now gives you a renewed desire to want to, to love people the way I love to you. Yeah, that makes sense. That

Joshua Johnson: 16:15

makes a lot of sense. That's really good. Because that's, that's what we're trying to get to, I could go out and serve, I could do these things. I prophesy in Jesus name. And Jesus never knows us. Like we could do all these things. But even the act of doing, we're not following closely to Jesus, we're not loving Jesus or loving others, we're doing it for a lot of times, so that I can look good, that other people around me can look at me and say, wow, look, Josh was an amazing follower of Jesus. So I'm doing it for my own own pride, and my own right my own thing, and not for the love of Jesus. Right,

Yolanda Solomon: 16:59

or I'm doing it so that God will like me more. I feel like I'm constantly reminding myself, and I'm constantly reminding those that are served that God already loves you. Here, like we're not trying to curry favor with God. By doing these things. It has to flow from our a change in what we view as what James K Smith, I'm a big fan of James K. Smith, philosopher would call it what we view as the abundant life or what we view as the good life. Like, I'm always telling my kids, it really is better to give than to receive. And I promise you that you'll only know that until you start giving, you know, and they're like, now mom, that sounds like a cop out. And now I'm like, No, I promise you, there's something in the giving. They're like when I gave giving guys gifts and presents, I love to watch your face when you open up that gift in that present. And I feel like that's how God looks at us, you know, but that that takes an entire shift of what we view, the good life being and I think, you know, we get glimpses of that type of glory sometimes. But it's really one of those things like you got to try me you got to taste and see that this is actually the best way to live. And, and slowly, you know, your how you love, others will change. And it'll change in a way that you'll be able to do it and not get burned out. Because we got a lot of burnt out Christians, bitter Christians. You know, in my book, I call them bored, but busy Christians who are going through the motions and to be honest, Joshua, they fallen out of love with Jesus, and they feel so guilty about it, because they're like, I don't even want to do this anymore. I'd rather go to brunch. I'd rather spend my Sundays watching sports, you know, and they've lost that zeal. And what I again, I remind myself, I'm mostly preaching to myself and to them, that there is something in the participating in the miracle that God is doing in someone else's life. That is life giving for you. You know, and when I think about that Samaritan woman in John chapter four, that is probably one of the best examples of discipleship that I can think of right? Like she encounters Jesus, she encounters his beauty, she encounters his truth, he listens to her. They have lengthy conversations, she is seen by Jesus, she is loved by Jesus, her soul thirst is quenched by Jesus to the point where she leaves her little her little cup behind, and to the point where she runs back to the same community that did her dirty to tell them about this man, like, I wouldn't have gone back to them, I would have kept it for myself, you know, but she goes back to the same people who have shunned her that, you know, scholars say, you know, she was she was she was abandoned five times, right? She was married five times, but in that culture, you know, she probably 1314 So she's been abandoned and discarded five times. And so she's never met a man like Jesus. sees her and speaks to her and has the audacity to engage her like a human being, much to the dismay of his male disciples. And this encounter is so formative that she is able to go back to a community that that's probably not a safe the safest place, and invite them Yanni to meet this man I just met. And it's it, there's no be great, like, it's not drudgery. It's not. And they actually say, You know what, your testimony was nice, but we want to meet, we want to encounter him and she says, Fine, you know, and I have to believe that that's what Jesus calls us to, you know, but it's not us alone. I think sometimes we can feel that discipleship is too heavy, I can't do this. And I think it's because we try to do it alone. But when I think about scripture, and I think about even that story of that Samaritan woman, fast forward, I think to Acts chapter nine, when Philip the apostle goes to Samaria, I have to believe that there was some fruit that she kind of tilled the ground of Samaria, and prepared Samaria for Philip. So now when he goes, You know, he's he's, he's following in her footsteps, she followed in Jesus footsteps. And that's why I call discipleship, a group project. You know, my friend in Los Angeles area on didn't try to disciple me alone, she shared her community with me. And I have to believe that that took a little bit of the pressure off her to know that yeah, this is this is a work of the Holy Ghost that I'm participating in. She's discipling me, as the Holy Spirit does the heavy lifting of heart transformation in my heart. But there's also other believers who are involved in this group project that are also pouring into me and answering questions. And I think that sort of communal nature of discipleship can get lost. When we only stick to these one on one, I got to have coffee and Panera with somebody for two hours a week by myself, and, you know, help them dissect the book of Romans. I don't have time for that great. But most people I know, don't have time for that, you know?

Joshua Johnson: 22:42

I mean, okay, one of the things in that story in John For and the Samaritan woman, that she's asking a lot of questions of, is my culture, right? Or is your culture right? Like, you say, you know, worship over there. We say worship here. And Jesus doesn't say anything about culture is like, okay, we're redefining something into the kingdom of God, or worshipping in spirit and truth, you have a whole section about in your book about discipling into culture or discipling, towards Jesus, what is the distinction? Why, how do we not fall into the trap of just regurgitating our own culture and discipling into that? Especially in group settings, right, your collaboration, because now we got, hey, look at us at our, our little, you know, distinct church culture, we're gonna disciple you into that, then so what does it look like then to, to disciple towards Jesus and not to a culture? Oh,

Yolanda Solomon: 23:50

that's a big question. I think the first thing is to recognize that you have a culture. I think some of us can think, Oh, I'm just a blank slate. I, you know, we we look at the way we follow Jesus as the objective way to follow Jesus and don't realize that we all read the scriptures, through our own cultural lens, our own socio economic lens, our own gendered lens out, like, we bring our background, like I read the gospel narrative about the woman with the issue of blood differently, because I know what it is to bleed every month, right? Like, so just there, right? I'm coming to text with someone that has never experienced that, you know, and with a bit of empathy. And so that's just one example. But so I think the first thing is to recognize that you have a culture and that your culture is not, you know, the norm, the objective norm. And that reminds me that, oh, wait a minute, I'm reading this and bringing my bias to the text. And then let's go back and look at Jesus and see that Jesus also was born in a culture. So how does Jesus navigate his his call, to proclaim the good news to Samaritans and to Jews, right. And so one of my favorite narratives in the Scripture is in Luke chapter nine, when Jesus is sending out the disciples to, you know, follow in his footsteps, and to proclaim the good news and they meet some Samaritans. And the Samaritans aren't excited about Jesus. And they asked Jesus, shall we call down fire on the Samaritans? Like, this is what they want. They got new towers, right. It's like whoa, we got We got powers now. Jesus has given them authority Jesus has given them power. He's given them instructions about being dependent on him. And they're like, let's use our new superpowers to call fire down on our cultural enemies. And the Bible says in Luke chapter nine, think it's verse 5054 55. Jesus rebukes them. And in that moment, Jesus reminds them, your cultural enemies are not mine. Okay? Like, in fact, if we have any enemies, what we should do is love them. And so when I am walking alongside someone, and trying to help them and nudge them in the direction of following Jesus, I'm reminding them that even the way I follow is is, is, is impacted through my cultural lens. And the goal is to follow Jesus to point people toward Jesus, not not culture, not politics, you know, and this can be as simple as you know, I remember years ago, you know, being in churches where, you know, certain instruments weren't allowed to be played, you know, they had demonic drums or demonic metallic drums, demonic, you know, I always want to praise him with the symbol, praise him with the hi hat, praise him loud, crashing symbol that's in the Bible, right? But just being taught that a certain cultural norm, even expository preaching, you know, I went to I went to evangelical seminary, and my master's program was co located between city Seminary of New York, which is in New York City, and evangelical Seminary in Philadelphia. And I just remember, you know, you it's not, no one will tell you that this is Orthodox, but they'll just kind of a hint that this is a better way, you know, expository preaching. And I'm like, Okay, well, I guess topical preaching is of the devil, you know, and just like recognizing that, that, that that is a cultural thing. And there's some people that enjoy and are fed by that, you know, line by line, you know, but Jesus preached on topics. You know, Jesus, you know, would would bounce around from Scripture to Scripture to talk about a theme called the kingdom of God. Right? And so if it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for us. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 28:01

So it's something about identity, I want to know how our own personal identity because you, you talked about, a lot of times we like to follow Jesus, like, say, Hey, I'm good enough. I'm, I'm doing all the things. So God will love me. So it's my, I'm just trying to, to have my identity and what I do, and now who God sees me as so as we're discipling others, and in this discipleship relationship, how formative is our identity? How to what is the role of identity within discipleship?

Yolanda Solomon: 28:36

Right? And so going back to Jesus, you know, a question that I asked, we're just coming out of Holy Week, right? Like, how does Jesus know that knowing that this community that He has prepared is going to basically desert him? How does he wash their feet? How does he serve them? How does he use his dying breath on the cross, you don't have a lot of breaths when you're suffocating the death rights, crucifixion makes your lungs collapse. And he's using his dying breath, to pray for the liberation of his executioner to say, Father, forgive them to see about his mother and his disciples like he's, he's, and you think to yourself, well, how can I follow in these footsteps? This seems too much. And one of my favorite scriptures, John 13. Jesus said, Let me actually grab my Bible. Jesus is washing the feet of the disciples. And the in John's narrative, Jesus says this, he says, it says, Knowing where he came from, right? He knew that the hour had come. And Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and he was returning to God. So he got it from the meal, right, took off his outer clothing, wraps a towel around his waist and gets to gets to washing feet. And I believe that Jesus knew who he was. He knew his mission. He knew where he came from. He knew where his authority came from. And that enabled him to serve. And I think in the same way, we have to know that our calling, our authority, our identity, it comes from God. And knowing that this is bigger than me, knowing that this is not my plan, knowing that my identity as a Christ follower, is part of you know, God's cosmic plan to renew all things like we're part of that cosmic renewal individually, like so this is much bigger than me, and knowing that this doesn't end hinge on Meet giving a new Christian the right answer to a question that they have about Jesus. It just it just takes a lot of pressure off. I know what I know who sent me, right? I know who called me. And it surely wasn't me. And it has nothing to do with my denomination, it actually has nothing to do even with my faithfulness to the call, this call is so bigger than me. So I know who I am, I know what God has called me to. I know that it doesn't matter whether or not I have a title or not. It doesn't matter whether I have a seminary degree or not, it's just me being faithful to follow. Follow out of the calling, and the the establishing of this call by Jesus. That's

Joshua Johnson: 31:22

so good. So if we know who we are, we will know who we have to know whose we are, which is yeah, we're, we're gods. And then we're going to know where we're going. What is our purpose? How are we to live? In the world? That's really good. That's fantastic. Yeah, I think

Yolanda Solomon: 31:40

it's like, you got to know the source of your authority, like, you know, who has called you. And that just makes all the difference. Because, you know, this isn't easy. And when it gets hard, right, when it gets hard this is work in the Spirit, you know, this is hard transformation work. This is this is it's a mystery to be quite honest, I, it can't be my grit, it can't be my intellect. It can't be my charisma, you know, and you could be a real charismatic person and get real far and this and have a nice way with words. And people think, oh, yeah, you know, but that's exhausting. You know, and as somebody that's done this for a little while, that can get really exhausting. And eventually it can lead to you even resenting God, and resenting the call and feeling bitter, right, because what happens when you are discipling someone, and nothing changes, you know, I mentioned in the book, you know, I'll never forget having a conversation with someone. And, you know, they were dealing with an, you know, anger issue, and it was having a deleterious effect on their life. And I remember saying, Alright, come on, let's pray. And they looked at me, and they said, you've been praying for me for a year, and nothing has changed. What's the point. And so when you're met with that, if if you don't remember that this is bigger than you, if you don't remember that, ultimately, you're not the Holy Spirit, I'm not the Holy Spirit, it's not my job to change this person. And that we are just participating in what God is already doing in their life. And we're just called to just walk with them. I say discipleship can drive you out of the faith, either it's gonna drive you to your knees, or at you know, it's like, you're gonna let me go join some other religion.

Joshua Johnson: 33:21

My wife and I lead a missions organization. And we we have people that go out all over the world. And I think there's been a better theme and missions for a while where people are trying to to help Jesus save souls. But we're, we're moving into a space. And I think we've we've been there for a little while. And we're gonna see a little overlap, where justice issues that are extremely important for people, and it's how does that impact our life? And what does it mean, to actually step into hard, difficult issues in the world? And make a difference? How does my me following Jesus actually make a difference in the world, and not just have a, a, I'm going to heaven when I die. There is an embodied like, practical, this is what it means to be Jesus, and to follow in His justice. footsteps. What are you seeing as you're, you're helping people follow Jesus? What questions are they asking? How do they want to see the the gospel, or the kingdom of God embodied in everyday life?

Yolanda Solomon: 34:32

Yeah, so at our church, I just finished teaching through the book of Mark, with a group, we just went through all 16 chapters, and, you know, asked for feedback. And one of the feet, you know, bits of feedback that I got from a few people, particularly people who work in what I call, like, helping, helping professions, social worker, teacher, psychiatrist, was seeing the seeing that God actually cares more about justice than we do. Right. I think somewhere in Psalm Psalm 89, right. Righteousness and justice are the foundation of the throne of God. And so what does that mean? Well, if Jesus comes if he proclaims the kingdom, a huge part of the kingdom is it's good news for poor people, like that's pretty late. And that's Jesus first sermon, right? He's quoting Isaiah 61. And he says, you know, the spirit has anointed me to preach the Good News to the poor to set the captives free, you know, to proclaim, you know, the year of Jubilee or the year of Lords favor, I'm here to cancel debts. And every and I tried to show them and I didn't so it brings me so much joy, because I don't have to Add to the Scripture, right? We just get to read through and see that everywhere Jesus goes, poor people get happy, poor people get fed. Right? You know, I think of, you know, the fish fry in the wilderness, right? Jesus go. And he sends his disciples out to preach and teach. And they're so excited to come back and talk about all the demons that they cast it out. And Jesus says, Wait a minute, and some hungry people here. And they're like, Well, you know, let them go and go get something to eat them, I guess that'd be a good idea that they go feed themselves. And Jesus says, No, you feed them, you serve them. And to see that Jesus doesn't ask them perform a miracle. He performs the miracle. It says, I'm going to perform the miracle. But then you're going to hand it out, you're going to think the Greek word literally means you're going to serve, you are going to pass out peridinium. I might be wrong. But I think it's parroted in my you're going to distribute this fish and this bread to these people. Because discipleship and following me in just preaching, yes, y'all just went and y'all just I sent y'all out to buy to y'all just cast it out some demons, I'm sure you feel great. But the people are hungry. And that's just as important. And it's just it that that's just as much ministry as preaching and teaching is feeding. You know, and this is its literal, you know, he's literally metaphor, you know, literally feeding them. But I think the metaphor is trying to help people to see that nobody cares that Jesus rose from the dead. Right? If if their hearts and their souls, and their bellies aren't being fed, Jesus was into feeding people's bellies, and making sure that when you met him, Jesus, I would say Jesus had a, he is always having a dinner party everywhere Jesus went, he was always sitting at a table. And people were always eating and drinking and happy. And so Jesus is going around making sure that people's souls aren't just being fed, but that their bellies are and in, in Galilee, where there's oppression, there's colonization, you know, I find it very interesting that, you know, Jesus calls these fishermen, and they leave immediately. And I think they left immediately, because the fishing job wasn't so great. I think they left immediately, because that was Caesar's lake. And they probably didn't make much I believe that they were sharecroppers of the sea, if you want to really get into the historical context. And Jesus is like, Hey, I got a new job for you guys. And, you know, it's gonna be a lot more rewarding than, you know, fishing for someone else, and then paying taxes and barely making a living, right, so So these have these poor people following him. And they see him, you know, he goes to Jericho. And you have Zacchaeus, who was scheming and scamming, you know, and Zacchaeus meets Jesus, and all of a sudden, you've got reparations for your Jericho, good news, like Jesus literally is good news to the poor. And so I can say a lot more. But I think that's a great starting place to show people that Jesus comes and he identifies with the poor. He's in solidarity with the poor. Does this mean Jesus aids rich people? Absolutely not. He has dinner with the kids. He's chatting it up with Nicodemus, but he's calling people with wealth to him to transform them so that they might see the people on the floor, I like to call them he's constantly reorienting the gaze of his disciples, to the people who are on the margins, right? When the disciples go to the temple. And he says, Stop looking at the people with the best seats in the synagogue, right? With the long flowy robes who were putting all the money because that's what they want to be. They want to be the rich young ruler, right? When Jesus talks to that rich young ruler. And Peter says, well, now listen, if you can't get in, what hope is there for us? And Jesus said, I need you to fix your gaze on that woman over there, who's given her last? Stop looking at the beautiful stones of the temple, stop looking at the opulence. Look at her, see her see the children, and because my kingdom is for them, too. You know, and he's constantly trying to fix there. And so I think following Jesus, discipleship means that we our gaze needs to be where Jesus's gazes and I think that's a good starting point, you know, for people to say just on your commute to work, this is not spiritual at all. Look at people you know, in a New York City you know, maybe if you're in the burbs, you're not looking to nobody, because you're in your car. But in New York, we're constantly surrounded by people, you know, you you're never alone. And so you're constantly surrounded by poverty. You're constantly surrounded by very, very, very wealthy people and very, very, very poor people. Right in the same subway car, you'll have millionaires and people begging for change. And so who are you looking at? And who are you loving? With whatever you have, right? Everybody is not going to start, you know, some nonprofit org integration. But what does it mean to be in solidarity with the poor? I think it should cost us something. I think that's part of the cost of discipleship, right? Come on. The trick was a digit bagnasco With the clock right now. Yeah, that's part of the cost. I can't your cost is not going to be my cost. But there's got to be a cost. Because Because advocating for the poor, blurring the lines, got Jesus in a bit of trouble. You know, so cost him the initial cause by some, yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 41:09

Whoever came to Jesus was transforms as people encountered him, the rich people encountered him, there was transformation that take place for people that encountered him, there was transformation that take place. In our discipleship, how can we help people encounter Jesus? And not just good words on the page?

Yolanda Solomon: 41:30

Oh, that's good. That's good. Some of this is gonna sound really boring. Some of this happens. I mean, it's, it is what it is, I think, I try to help people encounter Jesus, through pointing out the humanity of Jesus. I think, you know, if you've spent any time around Christians, if you spent any time around the church, you've been told that Jesus is God. And he is he makes claims to divinity. But I try to point people, to the humanity of Jesus, to show them that Jesus didn't just suffer for us. In many instances, he suffered like us, and that we actually have more in common with Jesus than we think. And that helps with the encounter, to see that Jesus family was a little crazy. You know, Jesus, you you got a dysfunctional family. Hey, so the Jesus, Jesus, parents and brothers are coming to him. And they're calling him out. And Jesus said, Now listen, if you're in this room, you're my mother, father and sister and brother, they thought he was possessed by demons. Right? Jesus had some issues with his family. So if you do, you're in good company, with Jesus. You know, Jesus knows what it is to be betrayed. Jesus knows what it is to cry. I always wonder why did Jesus cry with Mary and Martha, if he knew he was going to resurrect Lazarus, right, John, chapter 11, which is a scripture that's been very formative for how I see discipleship, he's going to resurrect his friend from the dead. He knows he's going to do that. He says it quite a few times, I'm going to do this so that you guys might believe that I am the resurrection in the life. But he cries, he spent some good time weeping and crying. And I think right there, we see the humanity of Jesus that even though he was going to be the resurrect door, he also was comforter, he was a mourner. And he mourned the the, the sadness of death. Right, he mourned, you know, because his friends were mourning. You know, when I think about Jesus, even on the way to the cross, I think it's insane that he asks his friends to pray with him, like What awful prayer partners, he knows they're going to fall asleep. And he still says, I'm struggling. Come pray with me. And I think he does that for us. I think there's a modeling of a vulnerability. And so I think when I think about encountering Jesus, the Gospels help us to see ourselves and see how Jesus identifies with us, so that we could know that he knows what it is to walk in this broken world, like Jesus, you know, knows what it is to metaphorically walk in the wilderness, he knows what it is to be thirsty, he knows what it is to be betrayed, he knows what it is, you know, to be misunderstood. He knows what it is to be tired. Jesus took naps. Like there's, there's not, I mean, and this, you know, getting, you know, very well, one of the before I started doing discipleship ministry, in a local church, I worked in campus ministry for eight years at Columbia University, and, you know, unfortunately, working at a college context means that you are in a context where sexual assault is very prevalent. One of my colleagues even, you know, she she did some research and showed us that one out of four college students experiences some sort of assault. So if I have a Bible study, and there's 12 young women in that Bible study, just by the virtue of the math, at least, you know, three of them have been assaulted, or have assaulted someone else. And so, what do you do with right? I, what I what I what I usually do, and what's surprising to me and people like will Gaffney and people like Christina Edmondson, Dr. Kristina Adams and Dr. Weil Gaffney have helped me to see is that on the cross, Jesus is assaulted. You know, we don't we don't really like to talk about that, but the Bible says they stripped him, They stripped him naked, he knows what it is to be snatched by violent people and have his clothing torn off. He knows what it is to be humiliated and exposed to the elements. It's not everything. But but from what I what I can see, that has been a real point of identification. You know, it's one thing to say that Jesus knows what you're going through. But when you're able to sit with a survivor, and say that, even that Jesus knows what it is to go through that sort of thing. And he still calls us to follow him. You know, he can sympathize, he can empathize with our weakness, but also, you know, with with very real, wretched and awful assault that people have gone through, he knows what it is to suffer in that way. And I've seen, there's been some solace there, to know that, wow, he even identifies with me, and that is

Joshua Johnson: 46:39

to have a God come and do that. And Willie Lee expose himself to all of that pain and that suffering, and that he could identify with us in every way. It is a that's just an absolute incredible. It's like, it is a wonder. I mean, this movement to Jesus has lasted over 2000 years, and it's going strong, right? There's, and a lot of it, I think, has to do with, he's not like any of the gods that were there. Were there he is. He's different. He's not this unattainable superhero. He's somebody that identifies with us in every way. And that's incredible. That's pretty incredible. Yeah,

Yolanda Solomon: 47:24

Doctor, what's her name, diet, Dr. Diana Butler Bass, she says he's eminent and he's imminent. You know, he's transcendent, but he's also with us, you know, and that helps me to see how to live you know, I'm not the first person to say this. But Jesus shows us what it means to be human. He shows us how to love, he shows us how to be obedient sons and daughters of God, he shows us how to depend on the father. But he also shows us how to love people in everyday practical ways. He shows us, you know, what really matters in this world. He shows us, you know, in a status quo, zero sum world, no, there's abundance, you know, if we share, there can be abundance, there doesn't have to be scarcity. This doesn't have to be, you know, as I gain you lose, no, we can all you know, have our basic needs fulfilled, you know, and I think that is super, just he shows us that another world is possible. You know, I think he spends quite a bit of time coaxing His disciples to use their imaginations, and to dream that the status quo isn't how it has to be. Now, it might call it might cost you some things, right? Because some people like the status quo, some people are very fine with oppression, it makes them a good living. everybody's not going to be happy when you start shaking tables. But actually, that's the abundant life. That's the promise. You know, one

Joshua Johnson: 49:01

of the things I teach when, when it comes to discipleship that my friends had gone through, so I, of course, steal it from someone else, like we all steal books, good things from other people. But, you know, it talks about most of our discipleship in the in the west and Western churches right now. It's, it's usually classroom based. So about 90 95% are like classroom based discipleship, this way, too, but let's fill in the blanks do something. And then our apprenticeship, right of bringing people along with us, is pretty miniscule. And the experience, like embodied experience of discipleship is pretty small. But he's big, but we basically say we need to flip that on its head and have the classroom time, the smaller time. And that experience and apprenticeship, a lot more like we those are the things that we need to get people to, to participate in as a participatory work. Discipleship is what how do we move from classroom to participation?

Yolanda Solomon: 50:05

Man, that's a great question. And I have to I can't This isn't me, Dr. Maria Lou Wong and Dr. Mark Gornick. The dean, I think now with a pro I think she's the provost. But basically, they are the heads of city Seminary of New York, and that's where I was able to study some time ago. And, and I tell you, you know, when I went to seminary, I didn't know what to expect. You know, there were actually people who told me if you go to seminary, it'll they call it a cemetery, you know, you'll lose your zeal because you'll just be sitting in a classroom, you know, learning doctrine, and you will actually be with people. And so I thank God for city Seminary of New York, because it when I say, our the city was our missiology classroom, we literally walked the streets of New York, and I'm from New York City, I like to say, you know, there aren't too many streets in New York City that I haven't walked down. But But alas, they made me a liar. Oh, we would go all over the Bronx, and Queens, Staten Island, Brooklyn. And we used to do this thing called pray and break bread. And I have to say, it is one of the most formative things that I've ever done, I still do it, I still invite people to do it. And so what we would do is we would find a neighborhood. And we would go to a neighborhood. And there would be you know, someone who actually was from that neighborhood would come and before we opened our mouths to pray, they would you know, talk to us about the neighborhood. In a, they would say, This is what the neighborhood is like, and I'll never forget one of my friends, Peter. He's a pastor here in New York City. He led one in Chinatown. And so we're in Chinatown. And we are hearing about what it means to be a Christian in Chinatown. What it's like in Chinatown, and we're looking around to like, we're not just hearing Peter, talk to us. We're looking and we're seeing you have sagging tenements in next to, you know, multimillion dollar condominiums. And he's saying, as you can see, it's getting harder and harder to be a lower income or working class person here. Because literally, you know, the gentrification is pushing people out and raising rents. And so people are having to work more. And so now you have, you know, immigrants, you know, some undocumented, some undocumented working 1415 hour days, you know, just to be able to provide for their families. And so how does that impact the teenagers that I work with at my church? Well, that means mom and daddy are home very much, you know. And also, it means that, you know, kids are kind of their kids, but they're grownups, because their parents don't necessarily speak the language. So they're the ones filling the prescriptions, they're the ones filling out the tax documents, they're the ones that, you know, no one's helping them with their homework. And so this is giving us a sense of Wow, now, we're not just coming into a community to pray for a community or theoretically thinking, how can we change this community? How can we take it back to Jesus, right, that's usually the language you hear no, we're exit sheeting the neighborhood by and learning about the needs of the community, from someone who's actually in that community. So that now when we begin to pray for that community, our prayers are informed by what they're actually not what their felt needs actually are. And so this, this, this practice, you know, didn't end with us just learning now. Now, knowing what you know, now, let's walk, let's walk in, let's pray. And let's stop by the basketball courts. And let's stop in front of this after school program and pray for this after school program, let's, you know, walk past this tenement building, let's pray for that landlord, let's walk past this playground, let's pray over this playground. And then, because listen, it all comes down to the money. Remember, Jesus was good news to the poor, let's go to a mom and pop restaurant in his community. And, and give them a whole bunch of money and buy it buy out the kitchen, right and tangibly be a blessing to this community. And, you know, this is, you know, years ago, but running a restaurant in New York City isn't isn't easy. And so that practice is something that I keep with me. So one of the things that I do with people that I'm discipling and that I participate in just even myself is prayer walks, I find that prayer walks are a great way to be amongst the people, to pray for the community, but also a way to just, you know, be like, I felt like Jesus always was on the go. He was always on his way somewhere, you know, and they would get into a conversation with somebody at a well at a synagogue at a tomb. Right? And I'm on his way somewhere. So I love talking to people about on the way discipleship, particularly if you you know, you're in a season of life where you're very busy, and you don't have time for that hour at Panera, you know, on your way somewhere, talk and walk with people in New York City, obviously, that that's very easy for me to walk and talk and pray with people but also for the community. And you'll learn a lot if you keep your eyes open. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 55:05

so good. ulanda. If you can go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Yolanda Solomon: 55:10

Oh my gosh, save up, open up a 401 K. Saved save your money. Now. If I go back to my 21 year old self, I would probably tell my 21 year old self to that there's more than one way to follow Jesus. I think I definitely got caught up in the cult of Reformed evangelical theology and thinking that, you know, the ice was called there over there and there's a there's one one way A to serve and one way to do things and it's like, I think I would tell that 21 year old woman, if God is who God says God is if God is infinite, and if the love of God transcends anything that we can ask for think or imagine, there's got to be more than one way to follow. Good.

Joshua Johnson: 55:58

Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend. Oh,

Yolanda Solomon: 56:02

yes. Ah, I love to read I love to read. I'm reading through a book called holy imagination. by Judy Fentress Williams, I find this is a commentary of the whole Bible. And it's phenomenal hold on my book dispel that, that's a I'm reading through black liturgies by Col. Arthur Riley, which is really, really great. I'm reading way too much. My husband he's like, if I see one more Amazon box come in his house. You know, you get a whole lot of gadgets to I'm also reading just for fun. A book about the Knicks, I'm a huge index in

Joshua Johnson: 56:41

perfect I this book, discipleship is holy collaborations. Fantastic. How can people go out and get your book? How can people connect with you? Yeah,

Yolanda Solomon: 56:51

so you can get my book wherever books are sold, Amazon InterVarsity. Press Barnes and Noble. It's all over. There's an audio book as well as a physical book. And you can actually if you go to the InterVarsity, press website, you can download a sample chapter so you can try before you buy. And it's available for pre order, it'll be released May 14 2024. And I am on social media. Sometimes not so good for my spiritual life. But I'm on there. I'm on all the socials, I'm on Instagram ulanda.solomon.bk. I'm on Twitter under an alias because Twitter is the devil. But you can find me on Twitter as well. I'm on, you know, Facebook. And so you can connect with me. I love to talk. I love to chat. And so and also my website ulanda Solomon dot site. Yeah. So please reach out.

Joshua Johnson: 57:41

Perfect. You're allowed to thank you for this conversation. It was illuminating. It was good. As we followed Jesus, what does it look like to disciple others so that we could encounter Jesus and we could actually be transformed and move into a different direction that we could be reordered by our loves. And we could walk through those things and and it's not about just what we know. But it is about what we love and how we love and how we love others that following Jesus, as a disciple will actually be good news for the poor and the march lies the neglect of the people on the margins. And so thank you for this. It was fantastic. You're

Yolanda Solomon: 58:21

welcome. You're welcome, Joshua. Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.