Ep. 180 Aimee Byrd - Finding Hope in the Underground of Disillusionment

The whole system seems to be out of order. It’s time we reckon with the abuse, structure, and outworkings of church. But first, it’s time to heal, to find hope even in the midst of our disillusionment. In this conversation, Aimee Byrd shares her story of disillusionment with the church after facing public shaming and harassment for writing a book critiquing certain theological teachings. She discusses the pain of this experience and her journey to healing, including finding community outside her church. We talk about ideas for reforming church practices to better reflect biblical principles of community, vulnerability, and mutual care and support among believers. So join us as we sit with the disillusionment, but find hope in our scars.

Aimee Byrd is an author, speaker, blogger, podcaster, and former coffee shop owner. Aimee is author of several books, including No Little Women, Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, and her latest, The Hope in Our Scars. Her articles have appeared in First Things, Table Talk, Modern Reformation, By Faith, New Horizons, Ordained Servant, Harvest USA, and Credo Magazine, and she has been interviewed and quoted in Christianity Today and The Atlantic.

Aimee's Book:
The Hope in Our Scars

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Aimee Byrd: 0:00

You know, I was reading the revelation not with those questions in the back of my mind necessarily the time when it hit me. Right on verse nine and chapter one, John describes himself as a brother and a partner in affliction, kingdom and endurance that are in Jesus. That's discipleship. Like he's describing himself. And it's neat because, John, and you know, he should be up here. And how does he What are you gonna say you say he has to them a brother, you know, a partner, an advocate a sibling.

Joshua Johnson: 0:47

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Kurt Thompson, Karen swallow prior and Caitlin Ches. You could go back listen to those episodes, and more. But today's guest is Amy bird. Me bird is an author, speaker, blogger podcaster and former coffee shop owner. Amy is author of several books including no Little Women recovering from biblical manhood and womanhood and her latest the hope in our scars are articles have appeared in first things tabletop modern reformation by faith, New Horizons, ordained servants, and more. This whole system is kind of out of order. It's time that we record with the abuse structure and our workings of the Western Church. But first, it is time to heal to find hope even in the midst of our disillusionment. In this conversation, Amy Byrd shares her story of disillusionment with the church after facing public shaming, and harassment for writing a book critiquing certain theological teachings. She discusses the pain of this experience and her journey to healing, including finding community outside of her church. We talked about ideas for reforming church practices to better reflect biblical principles of community and vulnerability and mutual care and support among believers. So join us as we sit with the disillusionment but find hope in our scars. Here's my conversation with Amy Byrd. Amy, welcome to shifting culture. Really excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.

Aimee Byrd: 3:19

Yeah, thanks, Josh. I'm happy to be here.

Joshua Johnson: 3:21

But you know, in your book, the hope in our scars, which is fantastic, I really love the way that you write, I love you writing your story. And giving us some hope and disillusionment. One of the things that you do write about is the importance of story is to tell your story, and your story to be heard as well, that we're storied creatures. So I'd love for you to start with your story. What, what is your story of disillusionment and the church? I know, it's a big one. But it's

Aimee Byrd: 3:52

a big one. It's kind of convoluted, but I'll try to make some sense in a short presentation of it. But basically, like, I kind of say that I'm an accidental author, in some ways, because that wasn't my ambition, you know, for adulthood was, you know, to be an author or a Christian author. You know, I always liked writing that was kind of a minor for me and the university, but for fun, and I got married young, right out of college, had had kids and both my husband and I came from families of divorce. So, you know, I really started diving into like, what is this whole Christianity thing look like as an adult, you know, what is a mature Christian. And I really wanted to do this, right? Because I didn't want my husband and I's marriage to fall apart. I wanted to give our children something strong and endow the faith. So I started soaking up these resources, and I'm learning a lot about something called biblical manhood and womanhood. And at first I'm soaking that in because boy, that's what I wanted to be right. I want to be a biblical woman. So I'm reading all this stuff, but it was kind of lonely. As a thinking woman in the church, like I had a lot of vigor, I think for like learning more about God more on the theological side of things. And I thought churches where you go, like churches where you go to learn what your big questions and churches also, you know, where you go with your story. You know, my husband and I each had pretty dramatic stories, you know, we didn't call it that Ben or, I didn't call that call it that for a long time. But, um, what I was finding, but I was hitting a lot of like, maybe what I call in invisible fences. As a woman, like I saw them, men having lots of good conversations, being asked to do different things and having a lot of reciprocity. But the women were kind of off to the side, doing kind of more domesticated things, not really entering into the theological heart of the church and the creative life in that way. So it's kind of lonely. And so I wrote this book that kind of stirred inside of my heart and soul. Just trying to think like trying to encourage women and the church said, Hey, we're theologians, to you know, what we think about God really matters in our everyday living. And so I wrote this book, and I got a really a lot of encouragement from it in the Presbyterian circles that I was in. Oh, yeah, this, this is great, you know, a theology book for women. And so I start getting asked to do a podcast with with a professor and a pastor. And I got pretty popular which I also started getting asked to do speaking engagements, women's retreats in different churches, and then conferences, and then our podcast, entered into like the seminary world and things like this. And in our traveling, and you know, Joshua, it's like one, one onion peel led to another. And so I started writing more books, as I'm hitting more invisible fences about like, you know, the way men treat women in the church. I wrote a book about friendship between the sexes, and this whole Billy Graham rule, and how can we treat one another secret siblings? I really call it kind of a theology of common sense. Yeah, whenever I wrote a book about women's resources in the church called no little women, you know, just about how how the Women's Resources have a lot of error and fluff in them. And it's really a call to the leaders in the church, like, please invest in us more, and include us more instead of sight earning us as a women's ministry. I did okay, with no little woman, people really liked that one. The Why Can't We Be Friends book? Oh, Amy, you're you're starting to make us uncomfortable. You're talking about some things that we don't like, you're kind of speaking as a conscious into into this denomination into this world of theology that we're not ready to go. And, and then I wrote this book called recovering from biblical manhood and woman. And this one is, you know, it's not the title that I first thought of, but with marketing and publishing, you know, like, No, my title was, like, COVID Bibles go in church or something boring, like that, you know, and, but the title has proven Joshua to be very, very true in my life now. So biblical manhood and womanhood was a movement that started over 30 years ago, and they developed this whole thing called complementarianism. And at first I was, you know, real believer in it. And as a young woman reading their, their big book on recovering biblical manhood or womanhood that had all of these different contributors in it. I'm like stubbing my toe in some areas. I'm like, you know, there's, there's spots where it says, like, you know, here's what mature masculinity looks like leadership, benevolent leadership of women, and mature feminine, and he is kind of finding men and puffing up their leadership. So there was like, nothing true to the woman that you know that it's actually feminine, that is a contribution. And then things came out of that, like, you know, be careful not to be too muscular to the women or, you know, you might not be wanted, or to the men, like, you know, if you're driving in a neighborhood, let's say you need to ask directions, and all you can find is a housewife outside of horror of horrors. How can you ask her for direction in a way that she isn't directly guiding you? And therefore emasculating you very odd stuff? You know, but these are a lot of these leaders were people I learned from and a lot of other ways and respected. So I tried to offer a critique from within, you know, staying within the bounds of the confession of the church and, but the book was really an invitation to let's look at how the male and female voices work in Scripture. Let's talk about discipleship in the church and what that looks like. And what are great honor and privilege as brothers and sisters in the church, what does that look like? So it's all about discipleship wasn't really about who can lead, you know, who can preach those kinds of issues. It wasn't about marriage. It was just about discipleship. However, that calls, I mean, a lot, a lot, I expected critique, you know, and I was trying to have some thick skin for that. But what I wasn't expecting so much was crazy name calling, the shaming, the calling ahead of my speaking engagements, warning, churches, like beware, guard your family's from this dangerous woman, there was this group online, that assemble it was like over 1100 people, and a lot of them were pastors and elders, in churches, and in mind, denomination and others, who I wasn't the only person they talked about, a boy was full of hate, and I was their favorite to hate. And from morning to night, somebody started sending me screenshots from this group, and just hundreds of comments, and each thread, you know, calling me Jas about in the great horror of Babel. And, you know, her husband really loved her, he shut her up. And, you know, just awful, awful things, making memes about me, and, you know, putting them on Twitter and stuff, as anonymous accounts, plotting to sabotage my Amazon page with one star reviews without buying the book, you know, just all kinds of really bad stuff. And it was just so shocking to see some of the names of the people in there, you know, it was shocking to see what they were saying about me. And then I found out that one of my own elders was in that group. And he wasn't saying those horrible things, but he wasn't stepping in and he wasn't warning me, you know, if you would comment, you would answer somebody's question about our denomination or something, and then head up, head on out of the comment threads. So I knew he saw it, you know. So that was such a sense of betrayal, I was going to the speaking engagement. And the week before I see these comments, and they're being sent to me, that they've caught ahead, they caused all kinds of trouble raising suspicion about me to the leaders. And that they had joked, joked around about, maybe they'll have a meetup of their own at this retreat center at the same time. So I didn't know what I was driving into, you know, I'm starting to not feel safe at all, in so many ways. And, you know, Josh, well, there's, there's going to be jerks on the internet, there's going to be people who misrepresent your writing or want to do stuff to your character. But these were leaders in the church, and many of them in my own denomination, going online asking for help to file like ecclesial charges against me in the church, in taking pictures from my Facebook of like me taking my daughter out to lunch on a Sunday and saying they want to charge me for breaking the Sabbath. Just I've been, you know, just and so I thought, well, you know, as bad as I thought it was pretty simple. Like, this is just bad, either. And this is disqualifying. And in this complementarian teaching, they don't say that all men are qualified to be pastors and elders, you know, there's certain qualifications. And these to me, were clearly going, I mean, like my husband said, you don't have to be a Christian to know that this is just really bad stuff. But you don't behave like this, you know, the leaders definitely shouldn't be like this. So I thought, Oh, this is, you know, a matter of just taking it to my pastor and my elders, and then you know, the ones in the churches where these men are, and something will be done. You know, it wasn't that way. The process of trying to address this through like, proper church order, was the most traumatic part of the whole thing. And it was two years of me trying to go through that process.

Joshua Johnson: 14:21

Yeah. I'm sorry that happen to you. That's not normal. And it's not what the body of Christ is supposed to be. It's not what it's supposed to look like, you know, Jesus came. He'd said, hey, the greatest command is to love God, and the other is like it to love your neighbor as yourself. And it seems to me like that's kind of what we're supposed to revolve around is to love one another. Well, and especially Jesus giving a new command, to believers to His disciples to love one another. And doesn't seem very, very loving. So as your If you're encountering horrific things, feeling the shame, I think one of the things you said in your in your, in your book is about, about should and shame. My, my spiritual director always tells me he says you shouldn't shit on yourself. So you're, you're starting to feel this way, you start to feel shame. And you're just like, What do I do? Who am I? How do you you start to find a place where you could feel safe to be with others in community that wouldn't shame you, but could be with you and your pain?

Aimee Byrd: 16:20

That's a really good question. And it takes time. You know, at first I was trying to make the community I was in that community, you know, because, at first I thought I was safe there before all this happen. My husband and I served like crazy in that church, we had tons of relationships. He was only like, 175 people in the church. So small church, we loved it, our children were connected, or you know, that they're like young adults now. And so my son was still in high school. I wanted to, I wanted things to reform in there, right. And interestingly, like in talking to a therapist, who specializes in spiritual abuse, he said to me, like, Amy, what makes you think that you have to be a missionary in your own church? And so that was very eye opening for me and clarifying that, oh, you know, like, I'm trying to make this place, the church shouldn't have to be the mission field. Right? So it took, like I said, two years of really thinking, I'm gonna get answers here. And there's going to be justice, in some sense, you know, just vindicated at least. And before I realized, oh, I have to leave. You know, I'm asking the wrong question. I was asking the question, Am I safe here? And even though I'm getting the same answer, no, and trying to make it safe. I wasn't asking. are me and my family rushing here? You know? Like, what, like the question alone? Am I safe here just kind of shows how bad it was. So I got to tell you visiting churches afterwards, very hard. Because it's a little different for me in the sense that it was so public, like what happened? So I had this additional fear of what of this pastor Google's me my name, right, like, what is he going to thank you for giving him this big troublemaker, you know. And so I had that kind of double part of it. And I want to say, if you've been harmed in the church, if any listeners have been harmed in the church, and you know, you want that community so bad, where you're safe and have freedom and belonging, you might need to take a little break verse for healing, you know, I don't want to make people feel like they're doing something wrong, because there's a lot of pain to get through. And there's a lot to just sort out, and your mind and your soul. And thankfully, like my husband, and some close friends, and my young children, like young adult children, like, these were people in my life, that were safe, that could hold my story with me. And, you know, I kind of talked about joy, being a sense of witness, you know, people who were there with you, you know, whether it's good or bad that you're going through, I will say it was hard. Some of the friends that I thought would be there who said they were going to be there or trying to be there, but were still harming me. You know, getting outdoors was very important to me, like finding beauty with other people. I think beauty is such an invitation into goodness, you know, got Gods hiding their church wise, meeting with meeting with the pastors, my husband, I would meet with the pastors kind of share a little bit about my story, go ahead and get it out there and ask some questions, and not rush into anything, you know. So we're still we're, you know, on a church right now, but we're still not members yet. Because I think the disillusionment we went through with the OPC if that church, thinking it was all these things, thinking membership would protect us in a lot of ways and give us some safeguard. There were so much disillusionment in it all. So, you know, we're trying to go slow, and God is bigger than what church we go to,

Unknown: 20:27

you know, he's bigger than whether we're a member or not. But we're finding places that we can go and there isn't that judgment on you there. Isn't that throwing on the shame?

Aimee Byrd: 20:40

You know, because I did feel like I'm walking through the door with with these labels troublemaker defector jazz Abell. And there comes a time where you have to say like, Okay, well, first I want to defend myself. That's not what I said, That's not who I am, you know. But there's a time where you have to really say, okay, yeah, my reputation is important. It's a good thing to want. But Jesus, you're more important. And I'm getting to that to you as well. And what you think about about me matters more than anything.

Joshua Johnson: 21:13

We're going to the book of John in, in church this year. And we're, we're walking through it together. And so yesterday, we studied the the story of the woman being caught in adultery. And what happens there is that, you know, men drag out this woman, she's got it. Of course, they don't bring the man that was devolves around and says to Jesus, hey, the law says we should stone her, what do you say we should do? He writes in the sand and, and one by one, they leave. And at the end, he says to this woman, where are your consumers? So they're not condemn you or your accusers? And she said, No, they're, they're gone. He said that neither, then do I condemn you go and send no more. And one of the things that we were were talking about is that so this goes along with with theology, and it goes along with with right thinking and the law that we were talking about, that Jesus came to fulfill the law and bring life out of it. And so the, the ultimate fulfillment of the law is this love. But what happens when this woman comes to Jesus, she gets actually, she gets brought into the light of the world, because right afterwards, Jesus says, I am the light of the world, man, and it feels like as you brings her into the light, things can move and transform. The religious leaders wanted to say, this is the letter of the law, and we're going to, you know, strangle somebody out to you know, its behavior modification. Yeah. So if what we're learning from Jesus is that discipleship, we're following him here is not just behavior modification is like rallying the right thing. It's actually bringing life and flourish meant, and what does it look like to then to step into the light? What is discipleship look like? What is the the role of us as believers look like?

Aimee Byrd: 23:13

Yeah, I really want to affirm what you're saying there. Because I think one thing that attracted me to the denomination I was in it, and was this kind of theological precision, you know, I was attracted to a lot of a contributors and the Mystics are really in my early 20s. And I felt shame for that. I felt like, oh, no, I need to get, you know, get this right. And it's not about emotions and feelings. It's about the right theology. And I thought, if I could get, you know, I kind of equated good theology with sanctification. And I think that denomination does and a lot of ways and I found out and these church meetings that I had to go, endure, I saw theology without love. I saw that Rikyu they are arguing the book of church order, like crazy. And Christ is not there, you know, he's just not there. And it was dark, and horrible. And so I really see that theology without love turns out to be a lot about shaming. And here you see that in that in this picture with a woman right. But in that disillusionment, I think it really was a tool to be able to ask the question of what's real? And what is discipleship? What is spiritual formation? What is spiritual maturity and growth? What does that look like? And, you know, I was reading the revelation, not what those questions in the back of my mind necessarily at the time when it hit me, right on verse nine and chapter one, John describes himself as a brother and a partner in affliction, kingdom and endurance that are in Jesus. And I just thought, oh, yeah, that's discipleship. Like he's describing himself. And it's neat, because this is John. And you know, he should be up here. And how does he What does he say he has to them a brother, you know, a partner, an advocate a sibling. That's us, brothers and sisters, advocates for one another, but what in the first thing he says was affliction. And so I realized that like my own expectations for church and discipleship also need to be examined. Here, you know, like I had some disillusionment of my own and what I thought church was for, you know, and what we are to beat to one another, and that we are going to go through affliction, that is part of discipleship being brothers and sisters in it. But then also kingdom, like, we need to provoke one another's imaginations to see the kingdom of God. Right. And that takes the Spirit of God to do that, not just theology, you know, but we worship God in spirit and in truth. And so there's a dependence there on the Spirit of God working in one another, to help us see. And then, you know, endurance, to stay with, right, to keep at it, to stay with one another. And, you know, I think that that gives us our hope, Ben, which is this participation in the covenantal spousal union with Christ, I think

Joshua Johnson: 26:27

that's beautiful, you know, even talking about worshipping in spirit and truth comes from the story that the woman at the well, in John four, that's really the same thing Jesus sees this woman that is been with, you know, five men, this last one is not even her husband. And it is her story. He's, he sees her shame. He sees everything that she has been. And she feels like, she now has a voice. That's why she goes back and tells her whole village who she was shunned, fie and didn't want anything to do with come see this man who knows everything about me. And it's pretty amazing what happens when Jesus can see somebody for who they are more than for what they have done or haven't done or, you know, follow these worlds, but just see them and brings them into a new light and a new place. Very, very simply and easily. I think that's so beautiful, to be able to see that. What I like you know, one of the things that you write here is your reference, and you put in Michael guide spawn, there about the grain of wheat that falls to the ground, eyes, and then bears fruit. And it's a beautiful, beautiful poem. I love Michael guy. We've been reading a lot of Michael guy, me too. He's great. What is it like you that he referenced the underground, he does that in his film, referencing the underground. And so for us? What does that look like for us to find each other in the data? collusion, mat and the underground?

Aimee Byrd: 28:12

Yeah, so I mean, his poem is called a grain of wheat. And it's based off of John, I think 1224 where Jesus says, you know, unless you're like a grain of wheat, that falls to the ground and dies, you remain alone. But if it dies, it bears fruit. And so his poem is like a prayer, really, and that, oh, that I could be grain of wheat. And he talks about kind of dying to our soul selves and just Hosking, you know, off those parts, and falling to the underground, where the other Fallen gather, and be and I loved that line, where the other I'm paraphrasing the poem, but at the beginning of the poem, but that line where the other Fallen gather, isn't there. And I just thought, oh, yeah, like, even things like my reputation, like that's worth dying to my soul self, isn't it, you know, down to the underground, it needs to go. And we get disillusioned. And we we find all these things that we've been holding on to you've counterfeit means of belonging that we're holding on to, or this hustle of the Christian life, that the striving that we think we're getting somewhere by our own wills, and good decision making. And we die to these things. And it's costly, right? It's scary, it's vulnerable. But guess what, like, when you fall down there to the underground, and you look to your left, and you look to your right, there, they are the other people who are dying to their soul cells. And there's community there, and I just thought, that's where Christ works. In the underground, that's where the church should be, is in the underground? And I mean, getting dirty, feed one another, seeing our wounds, but then helping the the wounds heal and inform scars. And in the scars really tell like a testimony, don't they? where we've been, you know, Christ in there in the healing, you know, and imagining this kingdom even with a woman at the well. I mean, Jesus sees her and he's also helping her imagine the kingdom of God. You know, which is part of discipleship again. He's talking about Living Water. And what's so interesting is that, you know, she uses this word calm, and her evangelization. And, and she's joining her voice with the Spirit. And that's powerful invitation. But that's exactly what we see at the end of Scripture and Revelation at the end is the church bride is seen as a woman coming down from heaven out of God, at from God. And she's talking about the living water, exactly what Jesus was talking about. And what does she say? Calm? It's the same word. It's the same invitation. There's just so powerful. I think there's a bunch of this going on right there. That word. So

Joshua Johnson: 31:24

good. Yeah, you write a lot about the Song of Songs in your your book, too. What is it for you the beauty of the and the imagery of of that, of that scripture? What does that do for us? And that brings us how does that bring us into a new space? What is the Song of Songs for you? Yeah,

Aimee Byrd: 31:46

so I get awkward looks and silence some times when I tell people that the Song of Songs ministered to me deeply in my pain. And I think nowadays, people are like, weird, you know, like, barely ever even hear a sermon on the phone. And, but it used to be that the Song of Songs was talked about in the early church as the Holy of Holies of Scripture. That's what the Church Fathers caught it. And it's like, if you could go anywhere in God's word and experience, the intimacy of Christ, the Song of Songs is where you're going to be able to find him in that kind of way. And it's this picture this, this allegory of Christ, units of love for his bride, the Church. And so that's what the man and a woman represent in the song in the soul with every believer. And so we have the church being feminized in the song. And throughout we have this metaphor throughout Scripture, really, interestingly, to the woman's voice is the dominant voice. In the song. I think this tells us a lot about leadership, and a lot about love. And she opens the song, she closes the song, she is in latticed in how she talks to her lover. She is she makes a request now on her needs known her wants or desire. she awakens desire in the reader really, as we're reading it. And that's the great part about poetry. You know, we can teach some things didactically. And in propositional statements and theological statements, but a poem an allegory metaphor, these things actually do something to us, they stir our affection. And, you know, I look at this woman, she names her abuse twice. But she still helps us direct our desire in that. And she says, like, where are you? God, there's like, the searching night scenes where she cannot find him. Aren't the Christian leaders like that? It really is. And you know, I look at what she's saying. And I'm like, wow, I can talk to God that way. And then I look at his words to us, and think, oh, man, does he love us, you know, and the way that he loves us. And he says to the woman after what is called, like, the springtime marriage invitation. And he's like, telling her to come away with Him. And He beckons her out from the class of the rock. And he says, you know, let me see your face. Let me hear your voice because your face is lovely. And your voice is sweet. And just like, wow, that That's love right there. And that is, you know, the incarnate Christ, talking to his church, and you know, I hear those words coming out of him to the woman at the well, you know, and that's exactly what she does. It's so evangelistic.

Joshua Johnson: 34:53

You know, one of the things that Sanyo Salas says to turn your gaze to to see and what God has his saying is I come out I want to see your face. And I know that in community as we see each other face to space as we're all searching for for faces. What does that do for us is seen each other face to face.

Unknown: 35:17

I actually have a book coming out next year all about that.

Joshua Johnson: 35:21

We'll have a deeper conversation next year that

Aimee Byrd: 35:24

saving face. You know our faces are provoking one another, right? We come out of the womb working for a face, looking for a face delighting in our face so that we know that we matter that we know that we are loved, even, we don't even know who we are without another face. But it's because we're all looking for God's face, right? For God's face gazing in our face, and then we really are going to know that we matter down deep in our bones and that we are loved. And, and so I think that there, yeah, there's this whole thread throughout scripture of your ultimate longing is to see the face of God and Jesus Christ. And his face is like a mirror to ours. You know, when we look into that, what are we going to see? And so I think, in one another spaces right now we are mirroring and there's in those ways, and so you're what are we mirroring? Are we are we, when we see somebody, like behind the countenance of their face, these masks that we keep, you know, the other? Right? There's a vulnerability there, and we have an opportunity to bless, we have an opportunity to give a better day and addiction, you know, which is our ultimate longing, like, you know, it says, the numbers and the blessing that that God's face will shine upon us.

Joshua Johnson: 36:47

Yes, yes. Amen. You, you have seen in a lot of places that the church, the system of church is broken. And we have these, these broken places in us. And hopefully, we're going to have scars that tell a good story that Jesus can heal us in those places, hopefully, we'll all the Church will become like it can't sugi cop, right, then our broken vase that then is forged with gold and made it more beautiful than it was before. But I want to go through just a little bit of of history to know that the system is broken, and then what are we going to do to to help the body of Christ? How can we help the body of Christ so that things that are, are shaming to you doesn't really happen to more people. And of course, it's going to because we're all human, but here we can, we can move forward. You know, with Constantine, we, we change the form of worship into a place of a what, what worship to the Roman gods were. And so we have now a pastor in front, and now we have this congregation that's sitting and listening. So we had that with the enlightenment, we have rational thought, right, and we forgot the relationality of our existence and how we actually learn relationally that now science is figuring out that a atoms across space and time actually jump at the same time because they have relationality. Like, it's just within where we are as the universe. And then we go into the Industrial Revolution. And so we everything is set up as a system. So we're systematizing everything so that we have this line that can produce some good works. And so we've seen, you know, books on Christian leadership didn't actually happen until after the Industrial leadership revolution, like the titles of that. So we have a brand new thought of what leadership so that the system will work. Alright, so now we're systematizing everything. And then the evangelical thought here is that A is individualized. So everything is individualized, we forget the community is just about my own personal relationship with Jesus, don't worry about the rest of the community. And it feels like all of these little shifts that have happened over time, if created a system that doesn't look like us, as brothers and sisters and partners, in a community, being discipled by Jesus, Jesus saying, you we don't call your rabbi, there's only one teacher, which is Jesus, we have community around, and how do we follow and be disciples of Jesus together? So then, now that you've we've seen some broken system in this church, what are some steps for us to recover what Jesus wanted for his bride for His church so that we could start to look beautiful, and we can have some hope in the scars that we have as the body?

Aimee Byrd: 40:01

Man, oh, that is a, you know, beyond my purview to be able to fully answer that question. But that is the conversation that I really want to have. And I mean, just for you to give that history. You can't say that and a lot of churches say that, you know, like, because the way it is now and the way that we do things now, apparently, you know, in the imagination of a lot of people or I guess lack thereof imagination has is the way that it's been forever. But you know, you look in scripture you look in like First Corinthians 14 I think we're Paul gives the most, you know, lengthy prescriptive teaching on work, corporate worship, you know, if we want to call it corporate worship, and you see something very different than we have now, you see a lot of reciprocity, you know. But even simple things that people are trying to incorporate now, like, hey, what if we sat more in a circle so that we can look at each other's faces, instead of the backs of our head, you know, and we're all looking at this one person. Or, hey, what if we go back to what the early church did was centering the Eucharist, and the mystery of it, right? Of God, in Christ in these elements nurturing us? First, we need to be able to talk about that, right. And to let go of some of these things that we're holding so tightly to, because I think it makes us feel like secure to do it, like what we think we've always done, but really, you know, maybe like our parents have done. So. I mean, I think that there's some real elements that we're going to have to, in a lot of ways, church has separated so much from philosophy, and science and psychology, you know, we're just our own thing now. And so even to share testimonies and stories becoming about like psychologizing, the say, or, you know, like, there's all these. So, I mean, I think we're gonna have to be more integrative again. And like, what you're talking about, like atoms, like, it's amazing to think about, you know, how we can glorify God in the US? Yes, I think we need to first be able to have some of the basic elements. And the reason why I introduced like, these other topics is first basic elements that were missing, like, you know, being a place of safety, a place of trustworthiness and transparency, to have peer support, where we're, you know, we're equipping one another, to help each other and not just rely on this one leader, or this hierarchy, you know, that collaboration and mutuality, empowerment of more than, you know, one democratic graphic of voices, that, you know, really, I think, recognizing and responding the cultural and historical gender factors, like these are all, you know, put out by the Center of Disease Control and Prevention, to help people who've been through trauma, but, you know, these are basic things that we just don't have. And then to be able to, to come with our stories to share like to have actual community. I mean, even looking at the way we do the Lord's Supper in most churches, and what that's been reduced to. I mean, what happened to the love feast? And so now in post COVID, you spend a lot of, we're used to this little disposable packet. I mean, that communicates a message, does it not. And then we have all these other communities that we're a part of now, because church isn't these things anymore. Community

Joshua Johnson: 43:48

is really important, I think what you were talking about with trauma informed care, and you know, some of the steps of trust and vulnerability, and being in a safe place, I think can happen, I think we could have some trusts where we go, okay, there's a smaller group of people where I feel safe, I can share my story. And so I don't know if it's going to happen in a larger worship service, to be able to do something like that. But I'd have to think smaller groups are going to be able to be are going to be necessary, moving, it's gonna be really necessary for you to find those that safe place in that community to be face to face to share the story, people are gonna hold your story. And you can find Jesus together as a community. Are there any ways that churches can start to say to smaller groups? You are, you are in power, this is your little thing, be that safe community and safe place for people?

Aimee Byrd: 44:45

I mean, wouldn't it be great if small groups can happen in some more homes? I think it's just more personal. Wouldn't it be great if the leaders in the church could invest in the facilitators of these small groups in ways that can do just that and to draw out the voices of others. And so there is more reciprocity, ways that we can, I think, be trained to hear stories well, and to tell them well, and you know, we come then with our stories, and we help hold them. And my story is going to provoke something out of you right out of your own story. And you're actually going to learn more about yourself through my story, which is amazing. And those all get woven then under the meta narrative, you know, the grand story So yeah, I do think that it would be really wise and fruitful for church leaders to invest in, in in that kind of thing. All right, let's

Joshua Johnson: 45:50

do it. Invest in it. It is really good. You know, looking through my list of like 20 things that I wrote about in your book that I wanted to talk about, you've mentioned them all, but in different ways, which is great. It's fantastic. One of the things that the very beginning that you said, but then what you wrote in your book, is that maybe the church is the mission field is a mission field that we need to, you know, as I lead a missions organization, and we're going one of the things that we have been talking about thinking that the next wave of missions is going to be to the church, mostly to the disenfranchised of the church. Yeah, people that have been hurt, the church hurt. And there's also reformation that needs to take place, where actually the completion of the Reformation that we really believe in the priesthood of all believers. So what does it look like then if you sat for, you know, within your church where you didn't have safety, there is no reason for you to be a missionary there. But in the the wider church, it's important for us to view the church has a mission field to say that we need to see, it starts to look like Jesus. Yeah. What was the importance of us viewing the church as a mission field?

Aimee Byrd: 47:16

I know it's kind of odd, right to hear. I mean, we're the ones who are supposed to be going out there and spreading the gospel. But do we even really believe that ourselves, and I feel like, my writing has been a way for me to, to try to do that. And, and, and that's not all the way station for me either. But, um, you know, I feel like through my writing, and one reason why I continued because when all this was going on, I was like, I don't need to keep doing this, you know, what, why, why torture myself. But in sharing my story, I shared the public parts of it. And like the the public meetings and rulings and things like that, and I heard from so many other people, I mean, coming out of the woodwork telling me their own stories of pain, and, you know, poor worse than mine, and saying, hearing your story is helping me heal. Because I'm able to name things that are happening to myself. We gaslight ourselves are gaslighted so much in the process, that you really lose sight of what's real. And I think another thing to see is okay, I named my own disillusionment, and distant disenfranchisement, but looking at these leaders who are caught up in this, not just the horrible angry one, but the ones who couldn't do anything about it, you know, the ones who still keep going on as business as usual. And in these spaces along fine, you know, enabling this kind of leadership? Aren't they disillusioned? There, they're very disillusioned. And so for me to be able to look at it instead of like, vindictively or, you know, demanding justice even. But to be able to step out of that. I look at it now with sympathy, in some ways, right? Like, I hope, you know, as I wrote my whole book, I'm like, I hope they read it. Not because, you know, there you go, you know, but because there's something in their hearts, I hope that they see the beauty in, you know, in, in the scars, and those kinds of things. So I think one big part of it, as the mission part is to point to the beauty, and to not settle for anything less, you

Joshua Johnson: 49:46

know, that's good. Well, Amy, if you could talk to your readers, and you could tell them one thing that you would hope that they would get from your book, what do you hope your readers will get?

Aimee Byrd: 49:58

Who, what do I hope my readers will get? Well, I hope that they will be able to get a clearer, or a beginning of an imagination, even an a boldness, then to look for Christ and emits whatever chaos they're in, you know, because I hope that the bookstores them to the beauty that he is calling us into and the beauty of who he is. But I also know if I have questions at the end of each chapter for discussion. And I hope that those can serve as a way for people to form small groups and come energies to talk about this stuff together for churches to, to maybe examine, hey, you know, How do y'all feel about this in our in our culture? You know what's going on here. So I'm really hoping for more conversation to happen with it. I've

Joshua Johnson: 50:55

a couple questions I like to ask at the end one, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Aimee Byrd: 51:02

Oh, man, there's so many. I think part of it would just be to relax, you know, I felt like I, you know, I was had so much vigor and wanting to do things, right, you know, that I got caught up in the striving and hustling of the Christian life. And, you know, in my marriage, and my, my raising my kids, you know, was so caught up in what a Christian looks like, how Christian behaves, and how they raise their kids and how their kids are going to turn out. Instead of, you know, the grace that we're saturated in, in the process, do not that obedience isn't important. It obviously is. But that to be more sensitive to the Spirit's working, and, and allow him to do that in a messy way that he just that's really good to be less condemning of others. Yes.

Joshua Johnson: 52:00

Yes. Great advice. Great advice. Well, maybe we could all take that in. And we could lean into that. Wherever we're at right now. Anything you've been reading or watching lately could recommend?

Aimee Byrd: 52:13

Oh, man, I'm reading all kinds of good stuff. Right now. I'm reading Walter Brigman. In Jeremiah, loving that. I just read the story of Martin Luthers. Life, they atrophy that I can't think of the author's name really good. And right now, I am in Eugene Peterson's under the unpredictable plant, which I'm loving. Yeah. So I don't know. There's a cycle through about three different books every couple of weeks.

Joshua Johnson: 52:46

That's awesome. That's good. I love it. Thank you. For those recommendation. How can people connect with you? Where can people get your book? Where would you like to point people to?

Aimee Byrd: 52:57

You know, obviously, Amazon's the easiest place. There is a landing page for the book, the hope and our scars.com. If you preorder the book, and you still have two weeks, and go to the hoop in our scars.com, you can get all kinds of cool bonus stuff, video, stuff that we have out that I've done, the first read chapter to read before the book comes out. A coupon all kinds of different things. I have a sub stack called bird in your box, B Y R D in your box. And that is a newsletter that comes out weekly. And I'm really just like the tagline for that is looking for the poem in the church. My writings pivoted to more contemplative kind of stuff. So that's what I'm doing there. And I guess Twitter, or x or whatever you want to call it. Is Amy Byrd. P. YP. Wall picked up PYW for pure Yellow Wallpaper. It's a reference to an old book. But yeah, my name is Todd AI, n e e y rd.

Joshua Johnson: 54:14

Perfect. Ami, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for sharing your story. And I really appreciate that you would do that, that you would open up and share your story to walk with all of us. As we know that there are many people that have been shamed and hurts and are disillusions of the church. But there is some hope that Jesus beautiful that there is as the Song of Songs are here that God is searching and wondering where we are, oh, come on out. Your face is beautiful. And I want to see your face. I want to hear your voice, that your voice matters, that your story matters, and that you as a vital contributor to the body of Christ matters and always so thank you for this. I really appreciate it.

Aimee Byrd: 55:04

Thanks so much for having me on introducing me to your listeners. I really appreciate it and just it was a delight talking to you. Thank you