Ep. 182 Grace Ji-Sun Kim - Have We Made God White and Male?

In this episode, Grace Ji-Sun Kim discusses her experience immigrating to Canada from Korea as a child and facing racism. She talks about how Christianity became associated with whiteness over time as it spread in Europe, with Jesus portrayed as a white man. Grace explains that the concept of race and whiteness are social constructs used to maintain power structures. We unpack the idea of a white God and try to figure out how to present Jesus without cultural overlays. Grace also emphasizes celebrating differences and learning from other cultures to better understand God and each other. So join us as we reflect how easy it is to make God in our own image.

Grace Ji-Sun Kim (PhD, University of Toronto) is professor of theology at Earlham School of Religion in Richmond, Indiana. She is the host of the Madang podcast and has published in TIME, Huffington Post, US Catholic, and The Nation. She is an ordained PC(USA) minister and enjoys being a guest preacher on most Sundays. Her many books include Invisible, Reimagining Spirit, and Healing Our Broken Humanity. She and her spouse, Perry, have three young adult children and live in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

Grace's Book:
When God Became White

Grace's Recommendation:
The Not-Yet God by Ilia Delio

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us

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Transcript

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 0:00

When Jesus did his ministry, he didn't expect everybody to be the same. He he, you know, he talked to the Samaritan woman, you know, she taught he was wet the lepers, you know, he, he talked to various people. So it wasn't like, Oh, everybody be the same. It is all these differences that make this body of Christ so beautiful and so rich.

Joshua Johnson: 0:39

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Craig Greenfield drew Qian and nutmeg Panahi. You can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Grace G son Kim. Grace is Professor of Theology at Earlham School of Religion in Richmond, Indiana. She is the host of the Madang podcasts and has published in time Huffington Post us Catholic and the nation. She is an ordained PCUSA minister and enjoys being a guest preacher on most Sundays are many books include invisible reimagining spirits and healing are broken humanity. Her latest book is when God became white. In this episode, Grace JSON. Kim discusses her experience immigrating to Canada from Korea as a child and facing racism. She talks about how Christianity became associated with whiteness over time as it spread in Europe. Grace explains that the concept of race and whiteness are social constructs used to maintain power structures. So we unpack the idea of a white God and try to figure out how to present Jesus without cultural overlays. Grace also emphasizes celebrating our differences and learning from other cultures to better understand God and each other. So join us as we reflect how easy it is to make God in our own image. Here is my conversation with Grace G son, Kim. Grace, welcome to shifting culture. Really excited to have you on. Thank you for joining me.

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 3:02

I will thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be on your podcast.

Joshua Johnson: 3:06

Yeah, I'm looking forward to the conversation, I think important conversation that we're gonna have. I'd love to start with your story as an immigrant from Korea into Canada. And what was your experience like? I

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 3:23

was quite young. So when we immigrated I started halfway through kindergarten. We arrived in January 1975. It was really cold. We landed in Toronto, but like, couple of weeks later, we just moved to a small city called London, Ontario. And growing up there not knowing English. You know, it wasn't that easy. And it's much, much colder and much more snow than Korea, that I remember as a kid. So there was a lot of adjustment. And I think just right off from the beginning, the experience of racism was felt in school, in the kindergarten class and I attended. So that has always been with me these experiences of racism. So many of my books and writings deal with racism in one way or another. And this book when God became white, certainly touches on racism.

Joshua Johnson: 4:24

Yes, it does. So then continue just to walk us through what you you felt like and then as your your parents were able to drop you off at different churches. What was your experience, like as you started to encounter the church for the first time?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 4:45

You know, the experiences of racism was very common for many Korean immigrants. There were a few other families that lived in the same apartment complex. And so, London, Ontario predominantly white and Anglo Saxon Protestant city, you know, now with some Korean immigrant families, they were very racist, you know, calling names and during the eye poll and just racial slurs it was on a daily basis. So it was very difficult and I would go home crying, and people wouldn't make fun of, there's no such place as Korea. So it, you know, it was kind of a traumatic experience from, you know, this homogeneous country, Korea where I grew up and spoke Korean, and that was surrounded by so many loving family members to be and all of a sudden, overnight, be in this isolated, cold environment. It was it was very difficult. So after a couple years, a lady in the apartment, that Korean lady said, my sister and I wanted to come to the Korean church, our parents, you know, we didn't go to church or we didn't attend church in Korea. We just decided to go, you know, something to do to kill time on a Sunday afternoon. We didn't have any extended family. So we just started going to church with her and it was fine. And then a year or so later, my parents decided to go. I think, at the time and many immigrant churches today, the church is more than a place of worship. It's a place where you make friends have extended, you know, gatherings, Christmas, Thanksgiving, whatever holidays, because many immigrants don't have extended family. It was a place to find employment, friendship, and so it was way more than a church. So my parents went and they enjoyed it. And as you mentioned, my dad decided to drop my sister and off in various churches. So Korean church was always in a rented of church building. So we would worship on a Sunday afternoon. And that's still very common for many immigrant churches that can't afford to have their own building. So Sunday morning, my dad dropped us off at this large Baptist Church. And then Sunday evenings, we went to another it was a very small Baptist Church, it was a Sunday evening worship, not many people. And then mid week, we went to various other churches, Friday nights, we went to some Missionary Alliance Church. So there was a lot of church. And, you know, my dad was the one that just dropped us off. And we didn't mind we just went. And looking back, I am pretty sure it was free English classes for us, because, you know, we were still struggling with English and you know, learning it is not learning a second language or third language or fourth language, it's always difficult, especially if you don't speak it in the whole, you're only speaking outside the home. So I'm pretty sure that was part of the reason why he just dropped us off at various churches, but you know, left good memories. Being plopped at places where I don't know anybody. And then you just have to quickly decide sit there and either make friends or just Just do your own thing and come back home.

Joshua Johnson: 8:26

And one of the things about the the immigrant experience is that it's really difficult for people that are not immigrants to to put themselves in their shoes, saying, You're you're going into a totally different culture, new language, new home new place, you feel very disoriented. And on top of that, since you not only are from other places, you look different as well, people will not treat you very well. So you you feel like an outsider in multiple ways. Was there any any sense from anybody that helped you transition? Or was that what was a helpful piece to help you transition?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 9:52

I don't know if there was any helpful piece for the transition. Except for that there were other Korean immigrant families, many Korean immigrants came in the 1970s, both to the US and to Canada. And most of them were young parents with young kids. So it wasn't they weren't bringing like teenagers. It was really like five year old six year olds, because, you know, it's hard to emigrate when you have older kids. So it was a young couples who decided to start a fresh life in a new country. It was after the war. You know, Korea was doing so poorly economically. So for those who wanted a better life for their young kids, they emigrated so I think the only kind of say When Grace was, there were other kids, my age that we kind of hung around with, where, you know, there was that familiarity, we felt more comfortable than in the white predominant, you know, the predominant white culture and society. We see Europeans emigrate to us, it's not that much of a change. There is, of course, some change, but it's not as dramatic. Because you can assimilate quickly, even if you speak French, or Spanish, because you look white, it's easy, you can easily assimilate, and your accent is preferred over Asian accents. So there is all these other things that are happening, to make it really difficult for people from Asia or Africa to kind of make US or Canada, their new home. So you know, it wasn't easy, I still have lots of memories of having difficulty assimilating into into the country. And being accepted. It's not that easy.

Joshua Johnson: 11:51

So as you're encountering a predominantly white culture, and whiteness, you you write in your book, when God became white, you write about the rise of Western Christianity, and then Western ism as a whole. And then you write about race, and how white actually started a little bit later. What is the construct of race? Where did race come from? And where did where did whiteness come from?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 12:21

Well, you know, race is a socially constructed concept. It was used to divide people, you know, we are one human being one human body on Earth. But this notion of race, to make one person, one group, with maybe fair skin, versus darker skin, that the fair skinned people are better. It's a strange concept, but it has been around for a long time. And it gets embedded in our way of thinking, and how we behave globally, especially in a globalized world now, where it's easy to fly, and you know, the web, it's easy to connect. And when you tie that into Christianity, you know, Jesus was a dark Palestinian Jew. But, you know, living under the Roman Empire, crucified under the Roman Empire. So you have this Roman Empire that had spread into the area. And when Christianity spread to Europe, suddenly, Christianity became white under Western westernization. So when we're, you know, right now, Gaza is in the news all the time, one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza. And we forget that because Christianity itself has become so white, it has become so westernized. It's almost like associated with white imperialism. We have, you know, made Jesus white, you know, and all of a sudden, this homeless, roaming kind of Rabbi, teacher, healer, becomes this fair skinned blue eyed, blond hair, Emperor look in a glass windows and paintings, and carvings. It's unbelievable how white Christians in Europe had changed Jesus to look like themselves. So then you can tie that in with this concept of whiteness, which is also shaped, socially constructed. So we have, you know, this idea of white people. And we also have to remember that white people were not a was not a homogeneous group as what we may think today, because some people were not considered white, and then they become white. An example would be the Irish, lower class, Europeans who are not considered white. But then, you know, with this notion of race and racism, other people got added into who white people are. So we have to understand this. This construct of race is socially constructed to keep some people in power and to take away power from other people. So keeping that in mind, and so this understanding of white people has been fluid and has changed. You know, Jewish people are now considered white. So it is a flu Really concept, and we have to keep that in mind to understand how this whiteness works. So whiteness itself is a socially constructed concept. But it is more than this understanding of white people, it is all these social ideas, these ways of behavior, the way of thinking that really puts into place, a hierarchy of people, and white people are at the top, and everyone else falls below. So we have to understand it's a very powerful concept that comes into play within our society or culture, and even within our Christian religion, and how we view the world. So you know, it's all it's about power, and who gets to hold power. So understanding that will help us understand why white people have more power than the rest of us. And, you know, when we think globally, you know, here in the US, Asian Americans are about six to 7% of the population. Well, in that way, we are marginalized. So you know, I'm not born a minority, I'm minority, I'm minoritized, I am made marginalized, and I am, you know, oppressed because of who I am. But in the global sense, Asians make up 60% of the world population, we are the majority. But still, this power of whiteness still is fierce, and it's overpowering, that it still makes white people over us as

Joshua Johnson: 17:29

a social construct. It's, it's interesting to figure out that a if race was just made, as a social construct, and keep people in power, and to delineate others so that slavery could happen, other things can happen so that that power is accumulated. Some people get caught up in that. So for a Jesus following Christian, not a cultural Christian, but a Jesus following a Christian that wants to have humility and start to walk in the ways of, of Jesus in the world. How do we start to recognize some of the power structures if, like, for example, for me, because I, I am a white male, I don't have to constantly be thinking about race, like, that's just, I don't have to because of my, my life in the world doesn't necessitate that. How do how do we start to, to think about our own culture, our own place in society, and start to dismantle the idea of one people over another people?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 18:41

And that's a big question. So, you know, just as you said, you don't have to think about race. That's the power of whiteness, that white people don't have to think about it. While the rest of us we have to think about it constantly, either by ourselves, or what society does to us. So I think as Christ's believing people, we have to understand how this notion of race gets played out, and how racism works in our society. And what whiteness does, it's a learned behavior. So when we think about the evolution of Christ, I don't know, I just kind of made up that term right now, how Jesus became white, we have to name it, because Christianity, for the last 2000 years have never named it, we insist that he is this white, European male. And when the white missionaries went out into the world, that's the message that they gave us. It's in the book, I do talk about worner Solomon's image, that image, the head of Christ, head of Christ image, because my mother had that image, you know, we want that portrait in our house. Many Korean churches have it. And when I was in seminary, I was chosen to go to India for the summer. And so many Indian churches had this head of Christ. And we all believe that this is how Jesus looked like some white male, European figure. So I think we have to recognize that white Europeans have made God in their image or Jesus in their image. Because when we think about it, none of us have seen God. One of us Absolutely no one. And it says you cannot see the face of God and live. So none of us have. But Christianity itself has kept teaching that God is a white male god. Until recently, nobody really questioned it. You know, with the rise of the feminist movement in the 1960s, yes, some of the feminist theologians are questioning this. Why is God a man? And why is God white? Well, I'm questioning now the whiteness of God, and in a few other people are theologians. But we really need to question this because Mary Daly, who used to teach at Boston College, she said, If God is male, than the male is God, you know, we have this kind of relational understanding we, you know, even if scripture says do not make God in thy own image, you know, in graven image, we do that all the time. And then when artists decide to, to depict Jesus as an Asian man, or an African man, you know, there's an uproar, you know, how dare you do that? But White Europeans have been doing that for the last 2000 years. And, and when white people do it, it seems okay. So there's a lot of things that we have to question. We have to rethink, you know, because in the Bible, yes, there are those masculine images of God. But also, there's feminine images of God, all throughout the Bible. And after I wrote this book, during research for another book, the term Yawei, you know, the four syllable, y h, w. H, originally, it was yhW, it was a three letter. And then these, you know, somehow added the age, and you have to recognize also that the Israelites, it was an oral tradition, things weren't being written down, you know, the priestly tradition, all these traditions, they were, they were being told orally. And until the printing age, everything was kind of orally transmitted. So stories were told, and, and that's how people came to understand who God is. So the, the short, and the three letter word. Many of the Jewish scholars said that's pronounced as who he, and I don't know if I'm saying it, right, but Hu H i. And that actually means he she, so God was understood, as she she, you know, in the really, really early traditions of the Israelites. And when you when you hear about those terminologies, and you think, how did that happen? Well, many of the Egyptians, at that time, believed, you know, Pharaoh was God, you know, pharaohs, kind of like this incarnation of God, or Pharaoh is their God. And they all believe that Pharaoh was a he, she, a pharaoh was both a man and a woman, because that's how divine beings were portrayed. And when you think about Genesis, you know, God says, I created Adam and whatever Eve, however, you're going to name it in my own image. So if it was in God's image, God's image is both masculine and feminine. But anyway, these are other things that you can ponder about. I don't have it all in my book. But I think it's important to recognize that there are all these other images of who God is within the Old Testament and New Testament. But for the last 2000 years, we've been really focused on a male god and a white God.

Joshua Johnson: 24:27

It's been a long time. And you know, as things shifted into western Western countries and places into Europe and into America, you know, Christianity itself now is, is there's predominantly in the Global South, in Asia, there are more Christians than there are in Western countries at the moment. And those things are starting to shift and change. And so even when I lived in Korea for two years, and I worked with a church and I taught English, the school in our boarding school, we had a statue of a Korean Jesus, like it was Jesus looked very Korean. Is there I'm seeing that, you know, I teach a lot about contextualization. So as you said, you know, in Africa there was There's pictures of Jesus as East African man at at the table. Last Supper, there's and so you're looking at okay, Jesus has been a darker skin. Now Africans are talking, you know, Jesus, you know, had darker skin. He's He's more like us. And so I think that's what Europeans were started to do to is saying, okay, Jesus is for us, if Western Christians, white Western Christians are going out and doing missions, how can we start to really take off our own culture and present Jesus for Jesus and not a white Jesus or a different version of Jesus? And I think this has implications for for missions globally, since now missions is from everywhere to everywhere. And it's not really from the west to the to the rest of the world anymore. But it is a global endeavor. What is the role of taking off and and studying our own culture and seeing what we're trying to present and dismantling our own sort of culture that we've put on Jesus, and just presenting Jesus as Jesus Himself?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 26:32

Yeah, I'm hoping that that will happen. And you know, when you're giving those examples of Korean Africa, I think still, it's a very small minority. You know, I've been to Africa, and I've been to Korea, most recently, last year. And still, what the white missionaries brought was a white Jesus and a white God. And that's so embedded in us. And so when I, you know, about seven years ago, I went to South Africa. And I went to see my friend, who I went to seminary with, he's a Korean. And he is teaching what the white missionaries had taught Koreans. So yes, as you said, missionaries are now going all over the place. But this whiteness of Christianity is still so heavily embedded. So when white when Chris Koreans are going into Kazakhstan, and all these different places now, as missionaries, they are still taking the white male god with them. This white Christianity. So I think a lot of things need to happen. Koreans are, you know, we, as Koreans really need to unpack this white Christianity, which is very, very difficult to do. For example, in the seminaries in Korea, they still love to translate, like these no name white theologians books, like I wouldn't even read them. And none of my books have been translated. Hardly any Korean American books have been translated into Korean. Well, there's no name. And you know, I don't want to downplay, but, but the point is, they still prefer the white male theologians, they think their theology is it over their own people's theology. So this is a huge problem. So all these places where the white missionaries went, there's a lot of unpacking to do, because what white missionaries told Koreans and Africans and South Americans is your culture is horrible, you're barbaric, you're not good enough, you know, you have to become like us Western people, and then you will receive our God, our beautiful white God. So all that message has been kind of given to us for so long, it's really hard to take that, to unpack it. That's why missionaries from those places, when they go to other places, majority of them are still taking the white gospel message of a white Jesus, and not sharing the message of Jesus, of Jesus that you kind of were talking about. So you know, all these things need to happen in it's hard. It's not gonna happen overnight. I sure when my book comes out in Korea, nobody will want to read it. Because, you know, they're gonna think, oh, you know, what is this specially as a woman to? You know, why are you trying to do this, but they were like to read some white male theologians and their books will be translated into Korean. And they will be read in the seminaries in Korea. Oh, and this is probably not just in Korea, but in many places around the world where the white missionaries sweat. So it's not as simple thing to do, but it's going to take a long, it's going to take a long time to unpack all of this.

Joshua Johnson: 29:58

All right. So give us some steps, then what you think are our unpacking steps? What do we do as as people as thinkers, you know, as, as Jesus tells us, metanoia, as he tells us to think differently, to rethink what we know, how can we start to grow and rethink what are some rethinking ways for us and good steps?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 30:25

Well, I think, you know, a lot of things need to be done, I think recognizing how race is placed in our society. So understanding that that is a social construct. We have people all that It's like some biological thing, but it's not. So understanding that and had understanding this whiteness, this concept of whiteness and how it plays within Christianity to. So, you know, studying this and, and why people need to study it to it's not just something for people of color to study, and, and people of color to deal with. That's how it always feels like in this American society, it's my problem, so I need to deal with it. But it was never my problem it was made into my problem. So I'm hoping that everyone will recognize that this is a big problem. And it's just like dealing with sexism, it's not a woman's problem. It's a man's problem. So the men have to deal with this too. So in the same way, white people really need to deal with, it doesn't matter if you're conservative or liberal, progressive or not, every white person needs to deal with it. Because this racism is systemic, it's embedded into our churches, into our schools and into our society in our neighborhoods. And so if we can't deal with this, we're never going to be able to treat and and do the second commandment, Love thy neighbor, we're not going to be able to do it, no matter what, if you don't deal with this other problem first, you will never be able to love because always in the back of your head, they are the other you know, they are marginalized, you know, there's something wrong with them. So Okay, then I'll help them. It's this strange kind of well, white self, Savior attitude, or so really understanding this. So I'm hoping that a lot of white people are read my book. And then once you understand the power of whiteness, and how it, how it's constructed, then to unpack it, and really just, you know, deconstruct and dismantle this white male god, and work towards a more loving image of God, which you can find in Scripture. And as more women are teaching and speaking and writing and becoming theologians, you know, more of these images are coming out, we have to retrieve these different ways of speaking about God. Because how we view God really impacts our thinking, how we add to how we behave. So if you continue to have this white male god, then of course, these abortion laws or immigration laws, or all these other laws, that you know, legislators put into place, are going to continue to go against women or go against immigrants, or go against people of color. You know, that's the impact our white male god has, we think, well, many of us are not Christians. Yeah, many, many Americans aren't Christians. But still, this white male god is still infiltrated into our society. And it still impacts those who have left Christianity or left religion, or are atheists, it's still, there's an impact in different ways. So unpacking how we think about God will have really good cut good results, I think, in our society, in our, in our churches,

Joshua Johnson: 34:15

as the world is becoming more multicultural, and there's globalization. And we like for me, one of the the things that I don't know, as, I mean, I have, I don't know, maybe 10 different ethnic groups in my lineage like I am a, a, I'm a mutt of different ethnic groups, right. And so, as things are going to happen more and more like that, and so ethnicities are going to actually be be merged more than they have been ever before. What is what is the role of that going to play out? And how, what's the difference in with how do we get rid of this race construct? And when there is like a melding of ethnicities as well? What is the like, is there something different and new that you're you're trying to see, we know that this has happened, this we have to reckon with it, but is there a new vision of something else that we can as society start to either organized around or not organized around?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 35:27

Well, I think difference is fine. You know, I think differences what makes this world turn I think, you know, this intercultural experience that's happening. I think that's great. So you know, these differences among the different ethnicities, you know, ethnicities is this larger category of heritage, language, nationality, culture, customs, etc. You know, I think it's okay that we have these different languages and different cultures, and different Heritage's. I think that's what makes this world so rich, I think the problem is when we don't accept it, and we say, one is so bad, you know, Chinese language is worse than the English language, you know, something so simple like that. But if you keep, say, one is better than the other, and just downgrading people that, you know, is racism. And that just leads to bigger problems, you know, of oppression and marginalization. So, you know, you are a mutt, and many of us are going to be our our, I think that's fine. I don't think we need to work towards this homogeneous society or this homogeneous world. I think it is really celebrating our differences, you know, with when Jesus did his ministry, he didn't expect everybody to be the same. He he, you know, he talked to the Samaritan woman, you know, she taught he was wet the lepers, you know, he, he talked to various people. So, it wasn't like, Oh, everybody be the same. It is all these differences that make this body of Christ, so beautiful, and so rich. So I think it is more celebration and welcoming. And we can do that in our churches by celebrating, you know, Black History Month, but not just during the black history. But throughout the year, how can we celebrate the various people in our churches that have that eat different foods? You know, I think Americans are so used to eating cold food, other people in other countries don't like cold food, and small, you know, I know a lot of Africans, all their food has to be piping hot, you know, they cannot handle the cold food. So if you wouldn't have have a celebration at church, have different foods have hot food and have different foods with spices and things like that. So you know, we have a lot to learn from each other. You know, I learned from other cultures too. And I think, you know, especially with this food in our sharing of food, you know, we all need food to live. So if we can enjoy and break bread together with different types of food, you know, that's a celebration rather than, you know. And my seminary ties to people making fun of people using chopsticks. You know, why is that happening? And I know it's still happening today. But, you know,

Joshua Johnson: 38:36

it was like all the Koreans when I lived in Korea, I'm making fun of me using job six.

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 38:42

Not making fun of people that like they think it's so strange that why would anyone use these two sticks to eat, but it's such a convenient way to eat if you ever tried. And in the Asian culture, all our food is made into small pieces. You don't need a fork and a knife there. You just all you need is a chopstick and maybe a spoon if there's soup, but everything you just pick it up because there's nothing to cut up because everything's cut up before it comes to the table.

Joshua Johnson: 39:17

That's good. I, we do that a lot. I think multiculturalism celebrating differences are really important that we see each other celebrate who people are, you know, one of the things that you write about in the book that has been been difficult for you sometimes, especially when you're in a when you're a minority in a place and people are asking you where you're from, where are you really from? They really want to know your family of origin because different, right? Yeah. For, for me, somebody who is very curious about people's ethnicity and their family of origin story, and where their family is from because I have so many different ethnicities within me. I don't feel rooted like. And so I want to see the rootedness of somebody else. And that fascinates me. And I just want to honor it. How do I ask that in a way that is honoring to somebody that is a minority and especially in America? Was that?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 40:17

Yeah, that's a good question. I think asking one's heritage or, you know, your family's heritage. I think that's a good way to begin the conversation. And you cannot really push people to say more. I think, you know, some people love to share. Other people don't know anything. You just have to leave it there. Instead of like she prodding where you really, really really from, you know, going if if California doesn't sit and then you say Seattle that this, you know, just prodding people feel uncomfortable with. But if you ask about your family heritage and maybe background and if people want to share they share if they don't, then that's the end, you know, because some people love to talk about other stuff, they may be feeling uncomfortable, maybe they are a mixed heritage and and then they're not comfortable sharing that

Joshua Johnson: 41:09

if you're looking at maybe your church or your community, what is like what you've written about race, whiteness, white God, practically, what does it look like in the congregation? Is there something that you have found that is helpful for people to start to, to reckon with it?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 41:34

Because I'm, you know, I'm just doing part time at a church. It's not, I'm not really that had passed, I'm just in term. So I feel that it, you know, I don't really need to teach my books there. But if people do you ask, of course, I start talking about it, I think it's important to break it down. I know, I don't use a masculine pronoun, and I avoid masculine images of God, that's just part of the liturgy, because I have weighed on the liturgy that I choose. And if it has it, I just delete everything, and just use spirit or just God, or other terminology that's not so gendered or racialized. So in that way, I'm impacting, and people may have picked it up. And I know, sometimes people may go in there, after I submit to change it, and then it's too late. I can't change it. But But I think, you know, you can't just change it overnight. I think pastors and leaders, they really need to deal with this and really move away from this patriarchal notion of God, because it's very damaging. This book, when God became white, I have another book that just came out called Surviving God, I co wrote it with Susan Shaw, and that deals with sexual abuse. And we know that sexual abuse is happening in society. But it also happens in the church. And some people, you know, they use scripture to just let it gloss it over, or we miss us and Miss read scripture, and all the patriarchal masculine images of God, they kind of perpetuate this violence against women. So we really have to see and recognize the consequences of this. And, you know, the white male god, the consequences of racism being played out in our church. So understanding this, then really, if you have opportunities to do book studies, to, you know, not only have white male authors, but have woman authors, and then people of color authors. I know many churches that do book studies, or, and invite authors and theologians and scholars to do studies. So invite scholars of color, to really challenge racism, challenge sexism, and, you know, these are all intersectional. You know, the other book that I co wrote was intersectional theology, these forms of injustice all intersect. So, you know, when we're dealing with racism, it's not just racism, it is tied in with sexism. It's tied in with climate change. It's tied in with economic justice. So understanding the intersectionality of these forms of injustice and how they feed off and they intersect to continue to oppress specially the woman of color, then understanding that first, and then working towards dealing with all these injustices will be a good thing for the church. So you can do it on a Sunday morning. You can do it in adult form, you can do it in a Bible study, or these special events. There's many avenues and then if you're going to do potlucks, or celebration, you know, AAPI Heritage Month, Native American Heritage Month and Latinx and Black History Month. Now, there's all these opportunities throughout the year, and you can create your own opportunities. is to do this. There's so many ways that we can celebrate so that we can really be a welcoming church, for all people into the

Joshua Johnson: 45:49

pews. Because what I love about Jesus Jesus's is for all people sitting with my Syrian friends, reading the story of Jesus's birth and the angels coming to the shepherds saying, you know, I bring you good news and glad tidings for all people. And she looks at us and says, Jesus really, for all people said, Yes, Jesus is for all people this what Angel said. And then she said, Oh, if he is for all people of Jesus, then I love him, I want to follow Him. This because he's for all people. And so I really do. I love Jesus, because He is for all people. And he came, and we actually could find the heart of Christ in the skin of every culture, that the differences that we do have in the world, make up a beautiful tapestry of God's glory is living in different places around the world where I was at minority like in Korea, and in the Middle East, as I was living there, it gives me a new appreciation of who God is, to see different aspects of who God is different vantage points, so that I'm not stuck in my own homogeneous culture, back home, but I could actually see it from other other places. It's really hard to detangle your own culture, when you're in it, you can't read the label from inside the bottle, you have to step outside, what are some ways to step outside? You've written some good books so that we could do that. How else can we start to encounter and engage the difference and the beauty of other people and in our everyday life,

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 47:32

I think recognizing that we're all equal people is a great way to begin that, you know, Africans are not lower class or Asians or South Americans. If we all if we can view everyone equally, then we really want to learn from each other. You know, I had to learn Korean at a language school when we emigrated, because, you know, learning how to read and write, it's hard to just thought I was Moses, you have to go to school. You know, I hated doing that. There was a time when I was so embarrassed to the Korean language. And you know, if 40 years later, 50 years later, who would have thought that there's Kpop, and Kdrama, and all this Korean food that can be kind of in a global way. But I think, you know, of course, just because that has happened doesn't mean racism doesn't exist. That has happened, but still, racism is there. But you know, if you learn different cultures, and you learn different languages, you know, your life becomes more richer, because as Christians, you know, on a Sunday morning, the only thing that we really have when we're worshiping is our words. You know, we sing our hymns, we say our prayers, we hear the word of God, it's, you know, it's through words that we encounter who God is. So the more words, the more images, the more languages that you have to talk about who God is. Because we have to remember that we're these finite beings, we're not that smart. And then we were worshiping this infinite being. So we cannot imagine the infinite, we have to come to God with this understanding of this mystical understanding, we don't know the fullness of God. Augustine said, if you think that is God, then that is not God, we cannot come to know the fullness of God. That's why we should not limit ourselves and keep talking about God as a white male god, we have to retrieve these rich images that are embedded in our scripture, embedded in our culture, the heritage, and use them because then we get a more fuller or deeper or more meaningful understanding of who God is. So celebrating and learning from other cultures, how they have practice, spirituality, really helps us to, so instead of being afraid and see all those kind of barbaric or uneducated people, we want to say let's learn from each other. Let's celebrate from each other. Teach me some concepts, you know, this African concept of Ubuntu that we bring into theology, which is so helpful, thinking about the community over the individual. Asian Americans think that way too. So I brought in these concepts and I think the more we learn, the better off we will be in understanding it. Other and understanding God, Grace,

Joshua Johnson: 50:41

if you could talk to your readers and tell your readers one thing that you would hope that they would get from your book, what would that be?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 50:49

To reduce it to one, that's hard, I hope that people will enjoy it and share it. Those who are challenged, will challenge others with the book. You know, as we're recording now, the book hasn't been released. So I don't know how people are going to receive it, though people seem to be very excited about it because of the book title. So I've already got lots of invitations to speak on it. I'm hoping that it will really challenge people. And I think challenge is good. I love to be challenged. Because if I get challenged, I'm not the same as yesterday, I'm going to grow and want to see more. Because we're, you know, read, we don't know everything, and we need to learn more. We shouldn't be just satisfied with our grade one faith. I think we need to continue to grow, we need to be challenged. And I hope that that's what people will get from the book, and they will enjoy it and share it with other people too.

Joshua Johnson: 52:01

Perfect. Sounds good. Thank you. Grace. I just have a couple questions that I like to ask at the end. One is if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 52:11

to keep going?

Joshua Johnson: 52:14

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Oh, one, and you did it. And you kept going. And you're here today. That's great. Good job. Good. Yeah. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 52:32

Oh, I'm just reading just snippets here and there and mostly from my own podcasts, but any of my podcast guests. Everyone should read their books. So our most recent one is Elia Dalio. They should read that book. And yep, saw, you know, yeah, read all those books. And what I'm watching is all Kdrama most times

Joshua Johnson: 52:57

that's, that's good. I know many, many people love Kpop there's a lot of it, it's good. How can people connect with you? Where would you like to point people to how can people go get your book?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 53:11

So um, it's available everywhere, I think ebooks and hardcover and paperback and I think the audio is coming out soon. I didn't record it. I wanted to but so many limitations. I didn't record it. I really, one day I really want to record one of my books, but I'm in a small town and I have to travel to a big city and etc, etc. I hope people will follow me on my substack it's loving life. Subscribe, you can subscribe for free and follow me there. And I'm all on social media, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter as Grace je Sen. Kim, and also on Tik Tok people can't believe I'm on Tik Tok. Neither can I But anyway, I'm on Tik Tok to raise your son count so people can follow me there.

Joshua Johnson: 53:59

Perfect. Grace, thank you for this conversation. Thank You that we get to start to confront racism and whiteness, and where it came from. And the race is a social construct and how Christianity has has grabbed a hold of that and actually translated Jesus into a white Jesus and God into a white male god and what does that mean for us in our society and how we could start to then shed that cultural aspects and present God and different aspects and facets of God and who he is and learn from other people differences and celebrate our differences. So it was a fantastic conversation. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. So I

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: 54:40

tried it so much to thank you so much Joshua, for having me. And thank you so much for reading my book. I thank you so much for this conversation. You're welcome.