Ep. 185 Steve Carter - How to Grieve Well: Finding Healing and Hope in Life's Desert Seasons

Grief catches us all. One of the things I’m learning about the culture that I’m from is that we don’t grieve well. We don’t know how to do it. In this conversation, Steve Carter shares about his experience grieving after leaving his job at Willow Creek Community Church. He talks about the process of grieving he went through, including dealing with unforgiveness, reorienting his identity, and learning to forgive. He discusses the importance of community and walking through grief with hope. He also shares about helping his son process what happened and the importance of holding space for others in their grief journey. So join us as we learn to grieve, breathe, and receive.

Steve Carter is the best selling author of The Thing Beneath The Thing, host of the Craft and Character podcast, a coach to communicators who are looking to find their unique voice or take their next step of growth in speaking and teaches regularly at churches, conferences, and various businesses around the country. His latest book Grieve, Breathe, Receive helps guide people on their unique grief journey. He is the former lead teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church and currently serves as a teaching pastor at Forest City Church. He lives outside Chicago, Illinois, with his wife and two kids.

Steve's Book:
Grieve, Breathe, Receive

Steve's Recommendations:
The Hidden Peace
I Shouldn't Feel This Way

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Consider Givi

Transcript

Steve Carter: 0:00

I was in Israel. And I saw a rabbi and I just I wanted to go talk to him. And so I walked up to him, I didn't know him and introduced ourselves to each other. And he said something interesting. It's always like, Hey, I had this question when I was on the plane. You know, there's three metaphors in of place in the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, Egypt, the desert, the Promised Land, like in a person's life, how much time do you think they spend in Egypt? Place of struggle, oppression, slavery, the desert place of just wandering uncertainty, wondering why he's got where he's gotten all this and the Promised Land, like the land of milk and honey, and he laughs at me. He's like, You Americans are so funny. Do you think everything's up into the right? Now for us? We think 10 to 15% of our life is in Egypt. 10 to 15% of our life is in the Promised Land, and the remaining 70 to 80 percenters in the desert. You all just try to bypass the desert at all cost. But if you actually learned, it would transform the way that you trust and see and experience the goodness of God.

Joshua Johnson: 1:22

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcasts in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ looks like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Our show is powered by you the listener. So if you want to support the work that we do get early access to episodes, Episode guides and more. Go to patreon.com/shifting culture to become a monthly patron so that we can continue in this important work. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network, tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening, as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Amy bird Sharon, hottie Miller and Justin Davis. You can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Steve Carter. Steve Carter is the best selling author of The Thing beneath the thing. Host of the craft and character podcast, a coach to communicators who are looking to find their unique voice or take their next step of growth and speaking and teaches regularly at churches, conferences and various businesses around the country. His book, grieve, breathe and receive released on May 7, and it helps guide people on their unique grief journey. He is the former lead teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church and currently serves as a teaching pastor at Forest City Church. He lives outside Chicago, Illinois with his wife and two kids. Do you know that grief catches us all? One of the things I'm learning about the culture that I'm from as that we don't grieve? Well, we really don't know how to do it. In this conversation, Steve Carter shares about his experience grieving after leaving his job at Willow Creek. He talks about the process of grieving he went through, including dealing with unforgiveness reorienting his identity and learning to forgive. He discusses the importance of community and walking through grief, with hope. He also shares about helping his son process what happened and the importance of holding space for others in their grief journey. So join us as we learn to grieve, to breathe and to receive. Here's my conversation with Steve Carter. Steve, welcome to shifting culture. excited to have you on thanks for joining me.

Steve Carter: 4:05

Definitely it's such an honor to be on this podcast.

Joshua Johnson: 4:08

Well as honored to have you here. We're going to share your story a little bit and get into grief and the process of of walking through that and hopefully releasing some of that and getting to receive something at the end of our grief process that never actually goes away. That we get to hold grief with us the rest of our lives, but we have some joy in the midst of it. So to start us out, I'd love to hear your story of coming to grips with things falling apart, change happening in your life. And the moment that grief started to hit you. Yeah,

Steve Carter: 4:48

I think that for much of my life I had done what probably many of us do. And that's just to avoid grief to kind of void, I desert season in any way, shape or form just to achieve set goals go after them. And, you know, in many ways try to do the most good. But I almost like Jenga was like stacking up grievances, and pains and wounds from my childhood, you know, a biological father in the picture out of the picture. And that just creates a whole bunch of confusion around identity like was it because of me that he laughed, and you just keep kind of went through life and in 2018 is probably the, the real invitation to have to deal with the concept of grief in 2018. And I was stepping into my dream job as the lead path teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, I had been handpicked by my mentor, and myself and another person would be leading out as he was in the succession process. And then some allegations started to come out. And when those allegations start to come out, you're kind of like, wait, what, what you're overwhelmed, like? How do you How am I supposed to think about this? Okay. And there's so many thoughts going through your mind your thoughts about the victims, thoughts about the congregation thoughts about my mentor thoughts, thoughts about what does this mean for my life and my career, and unfortunately, I just had a different way that I thought that the leaders should have handled this tragic story of abuse. And I ended up resigning on August 5 2018. On a Sunday morning, I just wrote a blog and release it into the world saying, I'm stepping out and it was hard. It was just a really, really hard season. I did not want that to be the case. I just felt like, I couldn't play with a congregation's trust. And that just kind of pushed me into what do you do when life does what it does, and when it shocks you, and when change shows up on your doorstep that you didn't see coming. And I just felt like the Lord say, go to the desert, wait for instructions. You can achieve your way out of this, you can only grieve your way through it. And, and I just Josh with this, I didn't know how to grieve. And so that's what I spent the last five years learning. How do you grieve? And it took me back to my childhood, it took me back to some real trauma. But in the end, the desert season became one of the most redemptive and healing seasons that I've ever experienced.

Joshua Johnson: 8:00

It seems counterintuitive that the desert seasons are gonna be the one that is going to bring you this place of, Hey, I am I am a new creation. I'm a new person, that God has actually brought forth new things in my life that are going through this difficult, hard season. I think a lot of people right now since since the pandemic, and 2020 like we have a worldwide sense of grief and desert for a while. And so this isn't, it seems like the world was shaking. And you got you got the privilege of walking through it a couple of years before everybody to walk through it together. So one of the things that you write about, I think, while you're, you're looking like this is happening, you talk about perception, like perceiving yourself, perceiving the way that others look at you and view you and knowing that a lot of the things that you're seeing about yourself is built on, maybe on alized, maybe a little bit, a shifting of a false falsehood, but as wasn't rooted really in the truth of who God says you are or who you are as a beloved child. How did you start to realize that your perception of yourself and what the maybe even the institution or your family situation was different than you thought it was previous?

Steve Carter: 9:31

Yeah, I you know, what's interesting is you can be a preacher and pastor and study God's Word, and still drift 2% 5% 9% 15% from your belovedness by God. And you can find your identity without even really thinking about it by what you do, and not what has been done for you. You can, you can have that happen. And then when it's taken away, I think that's when it gets more exacerbated because people are referring to as the former lead teaching pastor at Willow Creek. And you're and you're like, almost like are my best days behind me. And and then people are asking you at a party Hey, what do you do and and you're like I used to do something that seemingly had significance and people respected. Now I'm trying to figure out what I do by waking up and walking in the desert, you know, like it just was such a, a tricky piece of that's like in one sense of your identity. But the second piece that I think I had to really, really wrestle down is I started to believe other people's perceptions about me as almost gospel. So for instance, I was told, Steve, you're not a leader. You're a great preacher, you are not a leader.

Joshua Johnson: 11:08

Yeah, I read your book, I got angry for you.

Steve Carter: 11:13

What he's saying here is Yeah, but But you sit there and you go, why I didn't put on a global leadership summit. I didn't like who am I? Maybe he's right, maybe. And I, these certain statements started to just attach themselves to me, and almost force me to start to wonder, well, maybe, maybe that's true. Maybe I'm just a teacher. Maybe I'm not this. And what's tricky is, when you go through a season of betrayal, and betrayal, trauma messes with you talk to anyone where there's been an affair, you talk to anyone that were someone betrayed or violated trust, it messes with you, because you don't know if your discernment got leveled or if your your discernment leveled up. And that's, that's where I started to recognize going wait, why did I allow someone to tell me who I am? And why was unable to believe that? What does that say about me? And I went back to an old Christine Caine talk, and I'll never forget it, it was sitting in the front row. And she was teaching, and she was teaching on Genesis one, two and three on the questions God asks. And she had this one moment where, you know, she gets fear, fiery and might just passionate, like she always does in her talks was brilliant. But she's like, Who told you that? Like God was asking, like demand? Like, who told you that? And then she started to play? Did God really say? Or was that like the enemy? And I had to almost bring a bunch of phrases that I was holding on to? And I had to ask, Did God really say you're not a leader? Or did someone else say that? Did God really say this? Or was that somebody else? Did God really say that? Or was that someone who was just transferring their pain on to you, but I had held it, believed it and allowed my identity to become it. And so part of the walking in the desert and speaking with mentors, and and therapists was to recognize all man, you you gave a little too much power to those people, because they don't have the right to define who you are. Only God does. So that's kind of some of the stuff that really had to work through in the desert season.

Joshua Johnson: 13:50

What else did you have to work through in the desert season, you had to work through the the shakiness of your identity, the broken identity that you thought you had? That you're saying, Okay, God, what do you say about me? There's other people didn't What else did you have to walk through in your desert season of grief?

Steve Carter: 14:10

So for me that that phrase in Christ became really, really fascinated me. I still remember like, one of the first times I was just reading through the New Testament when we had moved to Arizona. So we left Chicago, we actually literally moved to the desert, my wife was from there. And I'd shared with her, Hey, I feel like God's telling us to go to the desert, and I'm thinking it's metaphorical. And she just teared up and said, I've been sensing the same thing. I want to go home. And so we move to Arizona, and I just get up early, start hiking. And I'm reading through some of the chapters in the New Testament. And I come across that phrase in Christ, and realizing like the first church really saw themselves entering into the life that death and the burial and the resurrection of Christ. And I had just this little phrase where I was like, I want to make discipleship fun again, like I have, there's so much hard. Let's have, let's like, let me return to when I was 18. And I realized what a talmidim or disciple of Jesus was like, bring me back to that. And in that phrase in Christ, I really saw this pattern of holy weekend, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Good Friday, where an innocent man dies, silent Saturday, where the the disciples have no idea what's next. And then the surprise of Easter Sunday. And that really became the framework for grieve, breathe, receive and I, I started to recognize when I got to grieve, what I thought it was going to be, how to grieve how key people let me down. And I gotta grieve what it actually is like what happened. I gotta breathe in new mercies like limitations. Three, the steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies ever come to an end, they're new every morning. Great is your faithfulness. I like breathe in those new mercies each morning. And exhale, whatever bitterness or unforgiveness, or sadness or anger was within me. And I had to receive, I had to have, allow myself to be surprised by Easter Sunday, and receive what I needed to learn, right, I needed to own who God and Christ and the Spirit wanted me to become. But I think the struggle for me really was in the amount of unforgiveness I was carrying. And part of that desert was recognizing in a willow didn't hurt me. Willow didn't like, mess with my faith. Willow didn't wrong me. Five people did. And my job was to actually start to work on the process of forgiveness, so that if God ever did a work in their heart, and we could show up at the table, and reconcile and have an honest and real conversation, I at least wanted to know that I had done my work. And I pray that a miracle might happen. But that process of unforgiveness and getting that out and learning to actually forgive that that did something in me that, that I'm just still thankful to God for.

Joshua Johnson: 17:24

It's crucial process, it's something that you need to release that and forgive. Now, as we train missionaries, one of the things that is crucial, is we have a process of forgiveness process, you know, the called Fresh Start, that walks people through, you know, the unforgiveness of the habit of and releases things, and forgives, and it helps tremendously, that we could go through that process. What did that process look like for you? And what was the work that you had to do to get to forgiveness, so that you could release and be free from the stuff that you weren't carrying?

Steve Carter: 18:01

yet? So I pretty much typically either start with my like, the cognitive the head, I want to study something or I feel it and then that jump straight to Okay, I gotta learn about it. And so I I just found myself so angry. And maybe for some of you listening right now, you know exactly what that's like you, someone betrayed you, someone hurt you, and, and even just the thought of their name or their face. And you almost have what John Ortberg refers to as an anger fantasy, like you envision being in a room with them and saying what you need to say. And I was having these moments was almost like coming out of me when I was walking on the trail or driving in the car. And, you know, I, Jim Cresa, an amazing therapist says, when you react, you're just reenacting the past, or when you get hysterical, it's most often historical. So you got to go back to that place and start to mine it, get to it, learn about it. And so I started to identify a handful of really, really painful traumatic moments in that Willow season. And the people that were behind it, I named the person, not the institution, I named the person one of those five, and named what they did. So I just held that. But the second thing I started to do is I looked at the two Greek words that are used for forgiveness. And the first one is a Fimi. It's in the Lord's Prayer, forgive us our debts as we forgive those who are indebted to us. And that comes from the day of atonement or Yom Kippur war, and a Fimi literally means to release and send away and then the second Greek word for forgiveness is the word Karis Maya and we get the word grace Karis in there, and then there's a maya literally is the grace I've received, I freely give away so it takes you to to the foot of the cross. And so I started to have this little breath prayer. And I would carry these little brown crosses in my pocket. And anytime one of those five names came to the forefront, I simply would just return to the cross. You need grace I received? Can I give away? Like I, I wronged Christ? I've wronged people. I want grace. Can I still extend it to them? And can I release it? And can I send it away? And so the simple little breath prayer cross release, send it away. And I would pray that I mean, I'd say the first time I started it, for two people in particular, I mean, it was, it was north of 100 times a day. And slowly but surely, it started to get to 75 times a day, and 40 times a day. And now you know, every once awhile, there might be a flare up on Twitter, something happens that triggers a memory. But I just simply go cross really send it away. And it just, it's, it's a way for me to say, I don't want this in me, because here's the here's the thing, Joshua, unforgiveness is a seed. And that seed will find soil in your heart, and they will grow. And it will produce a fruit of bitterness, anger, rage, gossip, slander, it's all in Ephesians chapter four, you see it. But when you choose to forgive, and you think about John chapter 20, Jesus returns and all the disciples are like, what? This guy just walked through a wall and he's like, Hey, Peace be with you. He says that again, Peace be with you that he breathes on them resurrection breath. And then he says, receive the Spirit. And then, and then he says, he says, like the most common sense of line ever he goes, the people you choose to forgive will be forgiven. And those that you don't, won't be. It's like, it's up to you. Will you choose to keep this in your system? Because you don't have the vision of the kingdom of God? Or will you see a more profound vision that you were supposed to walk lightly and freely? And watch how Jesus did it, he just cross release, send it away, cross release. So that just did a work. I mean, and I often will say this forgiveness is a solo sport. Reconciliation takes more people. But we got to do that solo sport. Well, to prepare us for the day, we can sit across the table with the people who have harmed us if that is safe and okay to do. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 22:41

I know that I need to do that as a solo sport, but I need others, sometimes to help me get to that place. Yeah. You know, like my unforgiveness that I've been holding, that sometimes my spiritual director will help. And it just comes out in those sessions, right? And then he's like, Okay, is there anybody you need to forgive is a god? Is it yourself as someone else? And we walked through that process, a debrief happened last year, and I was able to walk through stages of the last five years and say, Oh, I do need to forgive this and this. And so it helps. What is that process then with community to help us get to the place of realizing that there is some unforgiveness that we have to start to do that work? ourselves?

Steve Carter: 23:31

Great question. Yeah, I really think everyone's life would be a lot healthier if they had a therapist that they trust, and they gave permission to a spiritual director that they trust, and were able to give permission to a mentor, and community. And I think you have, because each of them see a different side of you. Some are on the payroll, some are not, some are some that you are paying, you know, and it's something that we're just friends, but they all have a different vantage point. So for me, it was, I would say definitely those four were really, really helpful, added my spouse, obviously, but I would say one thing I learned and this came from a counselor friend, I was just sharing with him a little bit about what was this these anger fantasies? And he said, you know, what's amazing 75 to 80% of my clients who come in and sit with me, don't know how to forgive. And then he said, if you actually in the church taught people how to forgive, I'd probably be out of a job. And he's like, it's kind of ironic that you don't and it wasn't like he wasn't throwing shame or shade. He was like, just, like genuinely saying this can communicate forgiveness so well, but it's still really, really hard to actually put into practice. And I had a really hard time forgive Giving myself it's easier for me to want to Brightside and forgive others was hard for me to forgive myself. And I think learning and being able to give permission to people that were safe to ask the hard, harder question just created new invitations for me to have to bring before the Lord or a mentor, or therapist or a friend or spouse. And I think for me, right now, I think so many of us are living in isolation. I was talking to a friend, I don't know if Joshua, I'd love to get your thoughts on this actually, because I realized when I came up in ministry, I really worked hard to have mentors in my life. But I didn't work at the same earnestness for mentors that I did for close friends. Because I thought, Oh, these people are gonna have like, the keys to life. But I think as you get older, you recognize a, if you if you cheat on like community, or you cheat on mentors, or you cheat on doing the internal work, or you cheat, like, it's, it's gonna affect your ability to have almost a 360 view of what it is that maybe the Lord is inviting you for your next best right stuff. And so I think I came to realize, like, in my 30s, man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna need some stronger community. And thanks be to God, because a lot of those were the people that were able to who knew me before Willow, who knew the struggles I had knew me that I think were able to reflect back? Hey, I think this is something you got to you got to start processing through. And the question is, do you have the courage to do it? Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 26:50

yeah. We need those close friends. Like it's, it is absolutely necessary. I mean, that's, that's one of the last things I was I was talking to my spiritual director about is I feel like, I don't have enough of those close friends anymore. Yeah, I'm somebody I only need like, like 123, like, good, close friends. And I've realized that some of those friends are seasonal friends like they, they're here for a season. And so I'm trying to re up at the moment. And it's also takes courage to say, I want to put myself out there and try to go and find people that I could go deep with and be genuine and be a friend. It's not easy. It's hard. And but I know that when I have it, it is I mean, I feel like I I'm firm in my foundation like I'm, I can go and weather storms because I have those people with me. And if I didn't have those, then the storms would almost, you know, crippled me. And I needed it. Yeah,

Steve Carter: 27:57

that's so good. So good. I think of like x 16, when Paul and Silas find themselves in prison, and they start singing, while other people listen. And I think it's so much easier to sing. Or have that resiliency, like you said to face the storm when you have a couple of people beside you. And so long as there's only one person beside you. But when when you're alone, and the voices inside the voices outside, trying to be able to see true north, it's so much harder, so much harder.

Joshua Johnson: 28:36

So, you know, my my mother in law passed away at the end of January. And she lived with us for seven years really and, and my wife took care of her at the end while she was going through things and it was just a long process. One of the things my wife said, Meredith said after maybe a month after her mom died, is I don't know who I am anymore. And that's the process of grief. Right? Is when you're in that grief spot. You're just like who am I? And it feels like there's a reorientation. So that feels to me like a Saturday, it feels like the silence of Holy Week. Like, I don't know who I am. I'm disillusioned. There's something. There is a death that happens, whatever it is, or a change that happened. Now I'm sitting here, I don't know who I am. What is this breathing aspect of this process that you have in the Saturday when you're disillusioned and what are you breathing? What is it? Yeah, it's so

Steve Carter: 29:39

good. What's what's what's really tricky is for many of us who are structured, we, you know, whether we were taking care of our mother in law, like Meredith, your wife, or for me, if you asked me what time of the day and day of the week I could tell you what I was doing at Willow I was very structured All of a sudden when that gets removed, now you're like, What do I do with my time? So it affects like what? Those disciples they, they were like we walked with Jesus, we saw miracles, we, we were with that Rabbi like we, we we were doing good now. We're fishing or hiding or wondering like, what do we do now? And I think that will take us in so many different directions. Sometimes. For some of us, it takes us to anger, like, it's good that they did this, or it's frustration towards God, why did you take my mom? Why did you why this why it's frustration towards a spouse. It's, it's a sense of uncertainty. And so for me, in those Saturday moments, you almost have to Jedi mind trick yourself a little bit. Because in the desert, and you know, this, when, when the nation, the Hebrew people have gotten out of Egypt, they were pretty close to the promised land. But it still took them 40 years. And one scholar says it's because it's one thing to leave Egypt, it's another thing to have Egypt leave you. And I think that for many people in that liminality, that liminal space, we don't know how to wait well. And so for me, I hate to wait. i Please don't make me wait for my Starbucks, like, Please don't make like I want to, I want to live the most efficient life possible. And then for some of us, we waste the wait. Like we find ourselves in this liminal space between Friday and Sunday. And we don't know how to press in. We just know how to escape and we just choose some unhealthy escapes. And I understand it, there's no I'm not. I'm not shaming anyone in that. But I, I even was surprised temptations that I thought I had been overcome, like overcame when they came back, because now I realize like, oh, I don't have structure I have all this time. Well, I was just busy that I didn't have the time to even entertain this now I do. And so it was very quick and easy to choose an unhealthy escape. So for some of us, you hate the way some of us we waste the weight. I think it's the conscious decision to say, Lord, help me win the weight. And let me just trust you. Whatever, that Egypt is within me. Do it. Do it ever it takes to get that out of my system. And I'll tell you this, I I was in Israel. And I saw a rabbi and I just I want to go talk to him. And so I walked up to him, I didn't know him and introduced ourselves to each other. And he said something interesting. And so it was like, Hey, I had this question when I was on the plane. The other three metaphors in of place in the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, Egypt, the desert, the Promised Land, like in a person's life, how much time do you think they spend in Egypt? Peace of struggle, oppression, slavery, the desert place of just wandering uncertainty, wondering why he's got where he's gotten all this and the Promised Land, like the land of milk and honey, and he laughs at me. He's like, You Americans are so funny. You think everything's up into the right now for us. We think 10 to 15% of our life is in Egypt. 10 to 15% of our life is on the promised land. And the remaining 70 to 80% is in the desert, you will just try to bypass the desert at all cost. But if you actually learned it would transform the way that you trust and see and experience the goodness of God. I did not know what that guy meant when he said that to me in 2014. But come 2018 That That statement was like oh my goodness, I have spent my life bypassing the desert. bypassing the sadness, bypassing the pain, wasting the weight, hating the weight. And now the question is will I trust and experience a really deeper kinder, more gentler and good God even? Even when life isn't up into the right, even in the uncertainty and the unknown? Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 34:31

are always just becoming alright. So we never get to arrive up into there, right? No, it's not we're never there. Yeah. Even in the promised land area. We've we're still becoming and we're still growing. We're still moving towards Christ. Yeah,

Steve Carter: 34:48

is it isn't it? Ruth Bell Graham, her tombstone says her name the date she was born, he dies and then underneath that it says, end of construction. Thanks for your patience on her tombstone. It is just amazing to me. You know, so I

Joshua Johnson: 35:01

love that. That's really good. You know what sometimes you know, when we're in that waiting place, you're a desert. So the 70% of our life in the desert, let's this will be fun. We, we open ourselves up, but we say, Okay, I have I feel like I've given everything up away like, I'm not holding anything else. It's just you Jesus. But then there's still the waiting. Is there resurrection life? Is Sunday really coming? Like where we're here in the desert? Is Sunday coming? Is there resurrection? Is there a gift? Do we get a gift? Going through this process? What is there at the end? It's not the end because right? We're still under construction. But is there any good gifts that God gives in the midst of it?

Steve Carter: 35:49

So for me, I think formation can one of the ways formation can work in discipleship is through like a little simple, struggle, sacred process, meaning we love simple truths. You know, God is with me. God has for me, God will never leave me nor forsake me. That's a very simple truth. But then you go through the desert, the struggle, the suffering, you get, you get punched in the gut. And now you have to go, Is God with me? Is God for me? Will God never leave me nor forsake me when I don't have a stage or a congregation? or this or that, like, will he. And that's what the desert really, really showed me. As I was walking and there's no concrete. It's a coyotes and rattlesnakes. It's barren. And then every once awhile, you'd start to see something bloom. And it just reminded me of the way that the Lord all throughout scripture would surprise you. And I just, I felt like the disciples were surprised they didn't see Sunday coming in most people when they die, they die. They don't get back up. And that must have changed everything. And so I just started having this little prayer Lord surprised me today. Or surprised me today. Would you surprise me today? Let me see Sunday today, surprise me today. And what was amazing is when that's simple truth, God is with you. God has for you, God never leave you nor forsake you actually can go through the struggle. And it still holds up. That statement isn't simple anymore. It is weighty and sacred. As he is with me. It was never about how good of a sermon I preached was never How about how big of a congregation. And that wasn't what made him want to be with me. And for me, it was with me, even when nobody was watching. He was for me, even at my lowest moment. And so all of a sudden now it's like I hear these phrases, that I would nod my head in agreement. Now it's like I put both hands over my heart and inhale and exhale and say thanks, be to God. And so, for me, that's that is how do you stay open? To the surprise? How do you stay open and First Thessalonians. Four is, you know, you have to grieve. We had to grieve with hope. That's, that's what's different about us in our faith is we know that Sunday happened, and that he's returning again, we have hope, and how do we hold both? And not just choose one? Or just use the other? But how do you hold both and hold them? Well? Can

Joshua Johnson: 38:43

you define hope for us? I know that in America, we we don't really know what hope is we just use it. Yeah, what? So what's a deeper hope for us? What is what is hope?

Steve Carter: 38:58

So hope for me is, I think one of the most profound and stunning and beautiful words and concepts. You know, in the Roman culture, they didn't teach hope they actually mocked you if you if you were a person of hope, because all they wanted was you to live in reality. And if it could not be defined, they thought it was weak. And so when Paul writes in Romans five, you know, talking about suffering and perseverance, perseverance, character and character, hope and hope will not be put to shame. That would have been so revolutionary for that church in Rome, like we are people of hope. So it's fascinating though, is the way that we talk about hope is in this like whimsy. Far from what the text meant with hope. It's like, you know, I hope the University of Michigan wins the national championship again next year in football, like, I hope there's no traffic on my way to the airport. But that's all preaching uncertainty. I don't really know. So what is hope? And for me, I use this acronym because I try to dare people to hope I had a dare myself to hope. And the D is you desire something good for this situation, I desire reconciliation, I desire healing, I desires and when you desire something good, it's, it's, it's desiring heaven to enter into that situation and the values of heaven in the way of Christ to do something in that moment. So I desire that I try to, you know, way Paul writes in his fixer eyes on the heavenly things set or have the same mindset as Christ, what would Christ mindset be for this situation have that level of desire and hope? Second, is anything is possible, as Joby Martin, pastor and Jacksonville Church of 1122 says, if the tomb is empty, anything's possible. So what's harder, fixing this relationship that's broken? or raising a man from the dead? I haven't found I think raising a man is probably harder. So I think that anything is possible, including this, as that's it the heartbeat of God, restoration, renewal reconciliation? And why can I say that because resurrection are bring certainty. And when I actually believe we people of the resurrection, or as Barbara Johnson says, We are Easter people leaving in a Good Friday world. And so my definition of hope is when I can desire something good, believe anything is possible. Resurrection brings certainty. And II, I can expect and anticipate that good is on its way. For me. That's what hope is, it is the expectation in anticipation, because of the resurrection. And because of the heart of God, that His goodness and His redemption, and his restoration is on its way. And sometimes it doesn't go as fast as I like it to go. But I gotta keep my eyes open my ears open my heart open. Because he's in the business of surprising us again, and again and again. Amen.

Joshua Johnson: 42:14

So good. I think that's really helpful for us to figure out what does it look like to hold on to hope? As we're walking through these situations? That's so helpful. Thank you for that. One of the things that meant for me, I've a question of you going through what you did at Willow was very painful, it was hard. You were trying to live in an integral space and have integrity through the situation. And, you know, at that same time, you were having conversations with your son about integrity. And he was asking if you are lived with integrity during that day. And your son said something at the coffee shop and your book that I think was was important. And if I get it wrong, you can correct me. But you know, as he's talking about, hey, I thought that you said if you did things right, then things will go well for you. And people, the coffee shops were yelling at you. You had somebody yelling at you. It just looked like somebody didn't like you at that time. When you stood up and you did something, right? How do we walk our children through this process, when painful things are happening to us, and they are seeing it and viewing it? And so how do you walk alongside of them?

Steve Carter: 43:35

Yeah. You know, that's that's probably where so much of my unforgiveness came because I was really, really worried and fearful of what that trauma would do for for my kids, and their faith and their life and their heart, their mind, their body, their soul. So it was at a local coffee shop and someone who went to Willow saw me and I was grabbing the drink for my son and me and he was fifth grade at the time. And we were walking, about to turn walk out and this woman just came up and just You're a coward. You abandoned us you're not a leader. And just in front of my son, my son's holding my hand looking at me looking at her looking at me looking at her. And I just, you know, brought him close. And she went for about 45 seconds. And I just said I as a people in the coffee shop, were looking and I just looked back at her and I just said hey, I appreciate you. trusting me with your full feelings about man. Walk to the car, and I could feel the anger coming. I'm so frustrated like just the cortisol rushing through my body and I'm putting my son in the backseat and the car and he just looks at me before he like, enters and he's like, Hey, you always told told me that if you did the right thing, you'd be rewarded. So you either lied to me because that didn't feel like a reward, or you didn't do the right thing. And I, Joshua, I didn't know what to say like, But thanks be to God, God gave me like just this little word in that moment I just said, but I don't know what to really say to you outside of when mom was pregnant with your sister, whose name is mercy, she threw up two times a day. And it was a hard pregnancy. But on May 22, when you when mom and I held mercy for the first time, she wasn't thinking about the vomiting and the throwing. She was just it was all worth it. And I don't know when we're going to hold our version of mercy. But I am choosing to believe that day will come. And that's all I could remind my son of, I couldn't tell him when I couldn't tell him how I just had to almost embody that hope and that biblical understanding of it. And then second, hold space for him to feel and mean, well, we moved to Arizona was a really dark time for him to be honest. Because, you know, then COVID happens he can't go to school, it's like it just all and all of his friends were back here. And so it just sitting and and then he's asking more questions. Why did that affect us? Why did that happen? And, and you're having to sit present to him, not get triggered yourself. But then go on a walk and let that come out, cross released, send it away, process it with, you know, your, your spiritual mentors and pastors and friends. But he just had to give him space to feel it. And, and I will say this the end, we've always tried to teach your kids the power of agency to be able to name their desires doesn't mean it's always going to come but we wanted them to be attuned to that. And as he was moving into the, his freshman year, we asked him, Where would you like to go to high school? You want to stay in Arizona? Do you want to? And without missing a beat? He said, I want to go home. I said where's home? And he said, our old neighborhood. And Joshua, we did the craziest thing we move 20 doors down from where we used to live. And I don't know very many people who move back to their personal Chernobyl, but I will tell you, he felt heard. And in recently, he told me he said he thanks for listening to my, what I needed. I know this is probably harder, and maybe not what you chose would have chosen. But this feels like the right move for me. He's a sophomore in high school is he's just awesome. But I just think in that moment, he wasn't saying this. But I I went back to that coffee shop parking lot neat. And I was like, just with tears like in my eye. He's holding his version of mercy. Thanks be to God.

Joshua Johnson: 48:23

As beautiful. Such a beautiful story. Thank God that he's holding this version of mercy at the moment. That's right. That is so good. So good. If you could tell your readers one thing you hope that they would get from this book, what would you hope your readers would get?

Steve Carter: 48:40

I hope that you will see the text. See holy weekend, see your story, your pain and realize you're not alone. This isn't a book that's going to tell you all the answers seven steps to this this and it's it's one that I believe you will be able to find yourself in and invite some deeper conversations with the Lord with a spirit with a friend, a mentor, therapist, Pastor, spiritual director. Because I think that the grief journey, maybe a better way to say it is you can't get to Sunday. If you don't experience Friday and Saturday, and I want Sunday for every single one of you. And to do that do that. Well, we have to my definition of grief is honor what comes up when change shows up and fully honor the Friday and fully honored the Saturday and make room for the surprise of Sunday.

Joshua Johnson: 49:46

So good. Steve, couple questions at the EDS one. If you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Steve Carter: 49:55

You're going to be okay. You're going to be okay. You keep doing your or internal work, keep getting after the thing beneath the thing, keep doing your work on your story. And then secondly is it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where you're at, and how big of an opportunity you have. That still feels the same about you, no matter what, no matter what you do, or what you did. He still feels absolutely, fully, madly, recklessly in love with who you are becoming. Anything

Joshua Johnson: 50:36

you've been reading watching lately, you could recommend. Oh,

Steve Carter: 50:39

great question. I mean, look at me look. And I've been reading a bunch of books, you know, when when you write a book, you don't read outside of like, because you just don't want like other thoughts getting through and so you maybe do research but then it's you get into writing and just writing. And then when you get done with the edited manuscript, you're like, I can return to my third love, you know, first love the Lord second love Michigan football, third love reading and like I can just return to it. So I just read the hidden piece by Joel Muda. Molly, Darren whiteheads, the digital fast. I'm working my way through Allison Cook's new book, which is unbelievable. And then stronger like water by Andi Kohler. She has a she has a guided journal that I've been working through, and then my buddy Luke Norsworthy just wrote a book that's, it's such a good title, how to love the life you already have. And I've just finished that book two days ago. And it was remarkable. So yeah, those are some of the stuff I've been reading. Awesome.

Joshua Johnson: 51:48

Those are great. How can people go out and get your book, grieve, breathe, receive? And then connect with you? Where would you like to point people to?

Steve Carter: 51:59

It find me at Steve carter.org or online, Instagram, Twitter x, or whatever we call it at Steve Ryan Carter. So we'd love to connect, reach out help in any way.

Joshua Johnson: 52:11

Great. Well, Steve, thank you for this conversation. It was fantastic. I love walking through your story. And thank you for sharing that with us. Thank you for opening yourself up and taking us through your grieving process so that we can feel like we aren't alone. Like we can do it as well, that we can go through Friday and go through Saturday so that we can get to the to the hope of Sunday, that there is resurrection coming, but that the grief process is something that we have to go through. But we have to go through the desert. And thank you for sharing the story with your son as well. I think that was very, very moving to me and helpful. And figuring out how do we hold on to hope? How do we dare to hold on to hope? So thank you, Steve, for this conversation. It was fantastic.

Steve Carter: 53:02

Thank you, Joshua. And seriously, I I have some holy envy over the guests that you've had on the shifting culture podcast. And so just to be on this podcast, man, it really really truly means the world. So you're doing great work. So thanks for having me.

Joshua Johnson: 53:17

Thank you. You too.