{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":0.24,"endTime":2.46,"body":"The reality is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":0.24,"endTime":2.46,"body":"that if you're just telling"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2.46,"endTime":6.48,"body":"people, let's hang out and talk"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2.46,"endTime":6.48,"body":"about ethics, it's just not"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":6.54,"endTime":9.54,"body":"doing the same kind of thing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":6.54,"endTime":9.54,"body":"that an institution that's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":9.54,"endTime":13.92,"body":"trying to sort of prepare people"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":9.54,"endTime":13.92,"body":"for virtuous behavior through"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":13.92,"endTime":16.86,"body":"the life cycle with an eye"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":13.92,"endTime":16.86,"body":"towards your eventual"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":16.86,"endTime":20.3,"body":"destination after death is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":16.86,"endTime":20.3,"body":"doing. Oh, Joshua,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":32.18,"endTime":33.92,"body":"hello and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":32.18,"endTime":33.92,"body":"welcome to the shifting culture"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":33.92,"endTime":36.2,"body":"podcast in which we have"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":33.92,"endTime":36.2,"body":"conversations about the culture"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":36.2,"endTime":39.26,"body":"we create and the impact we can"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":36.2,"endTime":39.26,"body":"make. We long to see the body of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":39.26,"endTime":43.66,"body":"Christ look like Jesus, I'm your"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":39.26,"endTime":43.66,"body":"host, Joshua Johnson, in a world"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":43.66,"endTime":47.86,"body":"that often feels fragmented,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":43.66,"endTime":47.86,"body":"uncertain and spiritually empty,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":47.86,"endTime":51.82,"body":"what if belief isn't just"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":47.86,"endTime":51.82,"body":"possible but essential? Today,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":51.88,"endTime":54.94,"body":"I'm sitting down with Ross"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":51.88,"endTime":54.94,"body":"Douthat, New York Times"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":54.94,"endTime":58.0,"body":"columnist and one of our most"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":54.94,"endTime":58.0,"body":"nuanced cultural thinkers, to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":58.0,"endTime":61.92,"body":"explore a radical proposition,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":58.0,"endTime":61.92,"body":"why everyone should be"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":61.92,"endTime":65.94,"body":"religious. In an age of growing"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":61.92,"endTime":65.94,"body":"skepticism, we're going beyond"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":65.94,"endTime":69.6,"body":"the debates of belief versus non"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":65.94,"endTime":69.6,"body":"belief. This conversation dives"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":69.6,"endTime":72.54,"body":"into the mysteries at the heart"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":69.6,"endTime":72.54,"body":"of the human experience, from"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":72.54,"endTime":75.72,"body":"quantum physics that suggests"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":72.54,"endTime":75.72,"body":"the universe might be more"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":75.72,"endTime":78.78,"body":"intentional than we thought, to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":75.72,"endTime":78.78,"body":"mere death experiences that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":78.78,"endTime":81.32,"body":"challenge everything we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":78.78,"endTime":81.32,"body":"understand about consciousness"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":81.92,"endTime":84.92,"body":"doubt that brings a provocative,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":81.92,"endTime":84.92,"body":"intellectually rigorous"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":84.92,"endTime":89.84,"body":"perspective that defies easy"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":84.92,"endTime":89.84,"body":"categorization. We'll explore"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":89.84,"endTime":93.44,"body":"how ancient spiritual wisdom"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":89.84,"endTime":93.44,"body":"might hold profound answers for"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":93.44,"endTime":97.22,"body":"our hyper individualized,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":93.44,"endTime":97.22,"body":"technology driven world. How can"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":97.22,"endTime":99.74,"body":"religious thinking help us"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":97.22,"endTime":99.74,"body":"navigate complexity, find"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":99.74,"endTime":102.76,"body":"meaning and reconnect with"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":99.74,"endTime":102.76,"body":"something larger than ourselves."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":103.12,"endTime":106.36,"body":"Expect surprises. We'll uncover"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":103.12,"endTime":106.36,"body":"scientific discoveries that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":106.36,"endTime":109.6,"body":"point toward design, discuss"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":106.36,"endTime":109.6,"body":"supernatural experiences that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":109.6,"endTime":113.62,"body":"defy materialist explanations,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":109.6,"endTime":113.62,"body":"and wrestle with life's deepest"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":113.62,"endTime":116.5,"body":"questions, whether you're a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":113.62,"endTime":116.5,"body":"committed believer, a curious"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":116.5,"endTime":119.86,"body":"skeptic or someone feeling"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":116.5,"endTime":119.86,"body":"spiritually lost, this episode"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":119.86,"endTime":122.88,"body":"promises to expand your"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":119.86,"endTime":122.88,"body":"understanding and offer a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":122.88,"endTime":126.18,"body":"message of hope. We're not just"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":122.88,"endTime":126.18,"body":"talking about belief. We're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":126.18,"endTime":130.5,"body":"reimagining what it means to be"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":126.18,"endTime":130.5,"body":"human in a mysterious universe."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":131.04,"endTime":135.3,"body":"So join us. Here is my"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":131.04,"endTime":135.3,"body":"conversation with Ross Douthat."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":136.56,"endTime":139.2,"body":"Ross, welcome to shifting"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":136.56,"endTime":139.2,"body":"culture. Excited to have you on."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":139.2,"endTime":140.34,"body":"Thank you so much for joining"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":140.339,"endTime":142.339,"body":"me. You're very"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":140.339,"endTime":142.339,"body":"welcome. Thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":142.339,"endTime":142.819,"body":"having me."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":143.179,"endTime":146.299,"body":"I'm excited to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":143.179,"endTime":146.299,"body":"dive into your book. Believe why"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":146.299,"endTime":150.079,"body":"everyone should be religious,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":146.299,"endTime":150.079,"body":"and your case for religion. I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":150.079,"endTime":154.279,"body":"would like to know as we start,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":150.079,"endTime":154.279,"body":"how did we get here? What is the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":154.279,"endTime":157.699,"body":"state of the world? And I want"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":154.279,"endTime":157.699,"body":"to go back pretty, pretty far."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":157.759,"endTime":163.719,"body":"Let's go back to what was the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":157.759,"endTime":163.719,"body":"organizing thought, life belief,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":163.779,"endTime":168.819,"body":"before Copernicus and Darwin,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":163.779,"endTime":168.819,"body":"and then what shifted and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":168.819,"endTime":175.779,"body":"changed to move us into, I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":168.819,"endTime":175.779,"body":"think, a secular type of non"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":175.779,"endTime":179.919,"body":"belief world that we currently"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":175.779,"endTime":179.919,"body":"sit in."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":180.279,"endTime":182.339,"body":"It's a good"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":180.279,"endTime":182.339,"body":"question. We'll try and cover,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":182.459,"endTime":186.419,"body":"you know, 500 to 1000 years of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":182.459,"endTime":186.419,"body":"history in brisk fashion. I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":186.419,"endTime":188.819,"body":"think the, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":186.419,"endTime":188.819,"body":"simplest way to look at it,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":188.819,"endTime":191.459,"body":"especially in the context of the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":188.819,"endTime":191.459,"body":"arguments I'm making in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":191.459,"endTime":196.619,"body":"book, is that for most of human"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":191.459,"endTime":196.619,"body":"history, in most societies and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":196.619,"endTime":201.799,"body":"civilizations, there was a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":196.619,"endTime":201.799,"body":"default to a view that the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":201.799,"endTime":206.179,"body":"universe existed for some"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":201.799,"endTime":206.179,"body":"reason, that there was some deep"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":206.179,"endTime":211.339,"body":"relationship between mind and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":206.179,"endTime":211.339,"body":"matter, where mind in some form,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":211.339,"endTime":215.719,"body":"was primary. This could take the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":211.339,"endTime":215.719,"body":"form of a creator god. It could"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":215.719,"endTime":219.559,"body":"take the form of a kind of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":215.719,"endTime":219.559,"body":"pantheistic conception, where"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":219.619,"endTime":223.539,"body":"mind and the universe are sort"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":219.619,"endTime":223.539,"body":"of bound together in some way."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":223.539,"endTime":227.979,"body":"But you know, in there was some"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":223.539,"endTime":227.979,"body":"sense of order and design and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":227.979,"endTime":233.259,"body":"intentionality in the cosmos."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":227.979,"endTime":233.259,"body":"There was some sense of a kind"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":233.259,"endTime":239.079,"body":"of spiritual hierarchy in which"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":233.259,"endTime":239.079,"body":"human beings existed, that also"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":239.079,"endTime":244.379,"body":"included a spirit world that you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":239.079,"endTime":244.379,"body":"know might include the local"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":244.379,"endTime":247.739,"body":"spirits associated with the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":244.379,"endTime":247.739,"body":"tribe. In a primitive society,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":248.339,"endTime":251.999,"body":"might include a pantheon of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":248.339,"endTime":251.999,"body":"gods. And a polytheistic society"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":251.999,"endTime":255.119,"body":"might include saints and angels"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":251.999,"endTime":255.119,"body":"and medieval Christendom. And"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":255.119,"endTime":258.599,"body":"then there was an assumption"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":255.119,"endTime":258.599,"body":"that human life continued in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":258.599,"endTime":261.919,"body":"some form, maybe a more"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":258.599,"endTime":261.919,"body":"fulfilled form, maybe a more"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":261.919,"endTime":266.059,"body":"attenuated form, but continued"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":261.919,"endTime":266.059,"body":"in some form after death, and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":266.059,"endTime":270.259,"body":"that your conduct in this life,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":266.059,"endTime":270.259,"body":"your relationship to higher"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":270.259,"endTime":274.099,"body":"powers in this life, had some"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":270.259,"endTime":274.099,"body":"kind of relationship to some"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":274.099,"endTime":277.579,"body":"kind of eternal destiny. So"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":274.099,"endTime":277.579,"body":"that's again, you know, we're"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":277.579,"endTime":280.939,"body":"glossing, we're glossing a lot"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":277.579,"endTime":280.939,"body":"of a lot of different pictures."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":280.939,"endTime":283.299,"body":"But I also think you could say"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":280.939,"endTime":283.299,"body":"then there was also a certain"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":283.299,"endTime":287.619,"body":"kind of convergence between the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":283.299,"endTime":287.619,"body":"major religious traditions,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":287.679,"endTime":292.839,"body":"right, that obviously Buddhism,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":287.679,"endTime":292.839,"body":"Hinduism, Christianity, Islam,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":293.259,"endTime":297.039,"body":"retained a lot of significant"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":293.259,"endTime":297.039,"body":"differences, but you could still"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":297.039,"endTime":302.159,"body":"see similarities, certainly in."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":297.039,"endTime":302.159,"body":"Their ethical codes that, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":302.159,"endTime":307.139,"body":"know, emerged in the, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":302.159,"endTime":307.139,"body":"the first millennium BC, and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":307.139,"endTime":309.839,"body":"then afterward, with"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":307.139,"endTime":309.839,"body":"Christianity and Islam, you have"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":309.839,"endTime":314.099,"body":"ethical conversion convergence,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":309.839,"endTime":314.099,"body":"what, what CS Lewis calls, in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":314.099,"endTime":317.699,"body":"one of his books the Dow, this"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":314.099,"endTime":317.699,"body":"sort of, you know, common moral"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":317.699,"endTime":320.839,"body":"inheritance of the major"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":317.699,"endTime":320.839,"body":"religious traditions. You have"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":320.839,"endTime":325.459,"body":"some convergence on ideas about"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":320.839,"endTime":325.459,"body":"heaven and hell and life after"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":325.459,"endTime":328.099,"body":"death, even though Eastern"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":325.459,"endTime":328.099,"body":"religions believe in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":328.099,"endTime":331.639,"body":"reincarnation and Western"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":328.099,"endTime":331.639,"body":"religions don't. Both religions"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":331.639,"endTime":335.179,"body":"believe in some kind of heaven"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":331.639,"endTime":335.179,"body":"and some kind of hell after"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":335.179,"endTime":337.879,"body":"death. And you know, and you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":335.179,"endTime":337.879,"body":"have certain kinds of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":337.879,"endTime":341.979,"body":"philosophical convergences where"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":337.879,"endTime":341.979,"body":"you can find Hindu philosophers"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":342.159,"endTime":345.399,"body":"and mystics meditating on the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":342.159,"endTime":345.399,"body":"nature of God, who say things"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":345.399,"endTime":348.399,"body":"that can sound a lot like"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":345.399,"endTime":348.399,"body":"Western mystics and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":348.399,"endTime":351.699,"body":"philosophers, again,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":348.399,"endTime":351.699,"body":"notwithstanding real theological"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":351.699,"endTime":356.619,"body":"differences. So that's that's a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":351.699,"endTime":356.619,"body":"picture of the religious world."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":356.799,"endTime":359.799,"body":"So then what happens to that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":356.799,"endTime":359.799,"body":"world? I think it's a, it's a,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":359.799,"endTime":362.459,"body":"it's an interesting and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":359.799,"endTime":362.459,"body":"complicated question, because"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":362.459,"endTime":366.059,"body":"you have a series of in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":362.459,"endTime":366.059,"body":"Western world, scientific"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":366.059,"endTime":371.399,"body":"revolutions that you know deal"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":366.059,"endTime":371.399,"body":"pose particular challenges to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":371.399,"endTime":376.979,"body":"particular aspects of Western"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":371.399,"endTime":376.979,"body":"Christianity, right? You know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":376.979,"endTime":380.479,"body":"the Copernican Revolution"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":376.979,"endTime":380.479,"body":"changes the basic conception of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":380.599,"endTime":383.779,"body":"how the universe is put"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":380.599,"endTime":383.779,"body":"together, and where earth fits"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":383.779,"endTime":387.619,"body":"among the planets. And then"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":383.779,"endTime":387.619,"body":"Darwinism poses a specific"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":387.619,"endTime":391.639,"body":"challenge, I think, to Christian"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":387.619,"endTime":391.639,"body":"ideas about the fall of man, the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":391.639,"endTime":395.599,"body":"book of Genesis, the origin of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":391.639,"endTime":395.599,"body":"the human race. So, so there,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":395.599,"endTime":400.239,"body":"there are those scientific"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":395.599,"endTime":400.239,"body":"challenges. Then there's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":400.239,"endTime":404.439,"body":"obviously a kind of, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":400.239,"endTime":404.439,"body":"sort of political process in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":404.439,"endTime":409.599,"body":"western world whereby new states"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":404.439,"endTime":409.599,"body":"and governments, you know, sort"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":409.599,"endTime":412.779,"body":"of compete with one another and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":409.599,"endTime":412.779,"body":"are in conflict and tension with"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":412.779,"endTime":416.859,"body":"religious authorities in ways"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":412.779,"endTime":416.859,"body":"that sort of create Church State"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":416.859,"endTime":420.419,"body":"debates the secular versus the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":416.859,"endTime":420.419,"body":"sacred. All of these things that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":420.419,"endTime":424.679,"body":"themselves play some important"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":420.419,"endTime":424.679,"body":"role in weakening religions"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":424.679,"endTime":427.979,"body":"hold. And then you have certain,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":424.679,"endTime":427.979,"body":"you know, broad social"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":427.979,"endTime":430.679,"body":"transformations,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":427.979,"endTime":430.679,"body":"industrialization, you know the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":430.679,"endTime":434.279,"body":"end of the agrarian world. And"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":430.679,"endTime":434.279,"body":"then beyond industrialization,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":434.519,"endTime":438.119,"body":"the trans the the revolutions"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":434.519,"endTime":438.119,"body":"for the last 50 or 60 years, the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":438.119,"endTime":441.799,"body":"sexual revolution, the cultural"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":438.119,"endTime":441.799,"body":"revolutions associated with it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":442.099,"endTime":444.679,"body":"that sort of alienate modern"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":442.099,"endTime":444.679,"body":"people from a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":444.739,"endTime":448.099,"body":"traditional, or at least some of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":444.739,"endTime":448.099,"body":"the traditional moral teachings"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":448.159,"endTime":452.479,"body":"of the faith. So you, I think,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":448.159,"endTime":452.479,"body":"in talking about how the world"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":452.479,"endTime":455.779,"body":"became more secular, you have to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":452.479,"endTime":455.779,"body":"see, yes, there's a scientific"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":455.779,"endTime":459.079,"body":"dimension. There's a scientific"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":455.779,"endTime":459.079,"body":"challenge to certain religious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":459.079,"endTime":462.399,"body":"ideas. There's a political"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":459.079,"endTime":462.399,"body":"dimension. There's a social and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":462.399,"endTime":464.799,"body":"moral dimension. And then"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":462.399,"endTime":464.799,"body":"finally, there's just, and this"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":464.799,"endTime":468.099,"body":"is, and relates to the argument"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":464.799,"endTime":468.099,"body":"I'm making in the book, there's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":468.099,"endTime":472.239,"body":"just sort of the fact of modern"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":468.099,"endTime":472.239,"body":"pluralism, right? Like, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":472.239,"endTime":476.199,"body":"know, modernity, it's not just"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":472.239,"endTime":476.199,"body":"liberalism, it's globalization,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":476.199,"endTime":479.919,"body":"it's, you know, whole host human"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":476.199,"endTime":479.919,"body":"communications technology, a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":479.919,"endTime":483.839,"body":"whole host of trends just brings"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":479.919,"endTime":483.839,"body":"people into contact with the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":483.839,"endTime":486.779,"body":"diversity of religious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":483.839,"endTime":486.779,"body":"traditions for the first time"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":486.779,"endTime":490.379,"body":"fully, you know, unless you're"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":486.779,"endTime":490.379,"body":"Marco Polo in in most of human"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":490.379,"endTime":494.279,"body":"history, and that change, I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":490.379,"endTime":494.279,"body":"think, creates sort of an extra"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":494.279,"endTime":499.019,"body":"burden for people in sort of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":494.279,"endTime":499.019,"body":"either sticking with or Choosing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":499.019,"endTime":503.299,"body":"a particular religion, a sense"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":499.019,"endTime":503.299,"body":"that, like particularity seems,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":503.779,"endTime":507.199,"body":"if not, a mistake. You know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":503.779,"endTime":507.199,"body":"it's that it's more unlikely,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":507.379,"endTime":511.219,"body":"right, that any that any"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":507.379,"endTime":511.219,"body":"particular one faith could be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":511.339,"endTime":515.119,"body":"the one true faith in the way"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":511.339,"endTime":515.119,"body":"that you know, again, certainly,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":515.659,"endTime":518.719,"body":"various forms of Christianity"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":515.659,"endTime":518.719,"body":"and Islam would would claim to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":518.719,"endTime":519.019,"body":"be,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":519.26,"endTime":520.34,"body":"that's really"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":519.26,"endTime":520.34,"body":"helpful."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":520.339,"endTime":524.079,"body":"Goodness, six, six"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":520.339,"endTime":524.079,"body":"minutes, 1000 years of history,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":524.139,"endTime":525.279,"body":"yeah, what,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":525.28,"endTime":527.8,"body":"what has been"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":525.28,"endTime":527.8,"body":"then some of the scientific"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":527.8,"endTime":533.98,"body":"discoveries and the way that we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":527.8,"endTime":533.98,"body":"have seen the cosmos and the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":534.04,"endTime":537.16,"body":"order of the universe, what are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":534.04,"endTime":537.16,"body":"some of those discoveries that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":537.16,"endTime":541.5,"body":"have started to point then maybe"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":537.16,"endTime":541.5,"body":"this isn't just an accident that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":541.5,"endTime":545.64,"body":"has happened. Maybe there is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":541.5,"endTime":545.64,"body":"something a mover at the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":545.7,"endTime":547.8,"body":"beginning. There is a creator."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":548.04,"endTime":551.82,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":548.04,"endTime":551.82,"body":"think the shift in evidence in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":551.82,"endTime":557.04,"body":"that direction, you could say in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":551.82,"endTime":557.04,"body":"part, it just reflects realities"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":557.04,"endTime":560.6,"body":"that were always there and have"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":557.04,"endTime":560.6,"body":"been integral to modern science"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":560.6,"endTime":564.62,"body":"from the beginning, if you go"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":560.6,"endTime":564.62,"body":"back to the first few centuries"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":564.62,"endTime":568.28,"body":"of the modern scientific era,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":564.62,"endTime":568.28,"body":"most scientists, while they"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":568.28,"endTime":570.86,"body":"might have been heretical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":568.28,"endTime":570.86,"body":"Christians, heterodox"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":570.86,"endTime":574.04,"body":"Christians, very eccentric"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":570.86,"endTime":574.04,"body":"Christians, in the case of Sir"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":574.04,"endTime":578.54,"body":"Isaac Newton, most, or all of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":574.04,"endTime":578.54,"body":"them, took for granted the idea"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":578.54,"endTime":581.92,"body":"that there was some ordering"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":578.54,"endTime":581.92,"body":"Power to the universe, and that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":581.92,"endTime":585.16,"body":"they were discovering an order"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":581.92,"endTime":585.16,"body":"that was discoverable precisely"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":585.16,"endTime":588.64,"body":"because it was designed right"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":585.16,"endTime":588.64,"body":"and science would make less"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":588.64,"endTime":592.6,"body":"sense if you assume that the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":588.64,"endTime":592.6,"body":"universe was accidental and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":592.6,"endTime":596.2,"body":"random. Because why would we be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":592.6,"endTime":596.2,"body":"able to discover, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":596.2,"endTime":599.26,"body":"regular, consistent, physical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":596.2,"endTime":599.26,"body":"and mathematical laws that made"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":599.26,"endTime":601.92,"body":"sense of it if. It was just"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":599.26,"endTime":601.92,"body":"random and accidental. So that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":602.4,"endTime":605.88,"body":"there was, there was that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":602.4,"endTime":605.88,"body":"synthesis originally, and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":605.88,"endTime":608.52,"body":"versions of that evidence still"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":605.88,"endTime":608.52,"body":"remain right, like the fact"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":608.52,"endTime":612.0,"body":"that, you know, science works"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":608.52,"endTime":612.0,"body":"and discovers, discovers laws"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":612.0,"endTime":615.3,"body":"and predictable realities and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":612.0,"endTime":615.3,"body":"beautiful mathematical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":615.3,"endTime":618.78,"body":"symmetries, that was always"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":615.3,"endTime":618.78,"body":"there, even you know, and sort"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":618.78,"endTime":622.76,"body":"of you know, the peak of certain"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":618.78,"endTime":622.76,"body":"forms of materialist and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":622.76,"endTime":626.24,"body":"atheistic science. But the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":622.76,"endTime":626.24,"body":"change, the shifts in the last"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":626.3,"endTime":631.28,"body":"70 to 100 years start, starts"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":626.3,"endTime":631.28,"body":"with the realization that the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":631.34,"endTime":634.58,"body":"universe probably had a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":631.34,"endTime":634.58,"body":"beginning, the Big Bang, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":634.58,"endTime":637.04,"body":"And, you know, there's debate"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":634.58,"endTime":637.04,"body":"about whether that's the only"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":637.04,"endTime":640.66,"body":"beginning. Maybe universes"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":637.04,"endTime":640.66,"body":"emerge and die and emerge and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":640.66,"endTime":645.16,"body":"die. But prior to the Big Bang"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":640.66,"endTime":645.16,"body":"being sort of widely accepted,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":645.52,"endTime":649.48,"body":"it was the concept of the of an"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":645.52,"endTime":649.48,"body":"eternal universe seemed more"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":649.48,"endTime":653.38,"body":"consonant with with atheism than"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":649.48,"endTime":653.38,"body":"dis a universe that has a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":653.38,"endTime":656.8,"body":"beginning, a moment of creation,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":653.38,"endTime":656.8,"body":"much like what's described in,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":656.8,"endTime":659.98,"body":"say, the book of Genesis, and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":656.8,"endTime":659.98,"body":"then, you know, moving from"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":659.98,"endTime":663.06,"body":"there, you entered into some of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":659.98,"endTime":663.06,"body":"the weirder discoveries of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":663.06,"endTime":666.9,"body":"quantum physics, which whose"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":663.06,"endTime":666.9,"body":"interpretation, I think will be,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":666.9,"endTime":670.74,"body":"you know, debated for centuries"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":666.9,"endTime":670.74,"body":"yet to come. But one of the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":670.74,"endTime":673.92,"body":"simplest readings of what"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":670.74,"endTime":673.92,"body":"quantum physics seemed to reveal"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":673.92,"endTime":677.64,"body":"about reality was that there was"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":673.92,"endTime":677.64,"body":"some mysterious interplay"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":677.64,"endTime":682.88,"body":"between observation and reality,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":677.64,"endTime":682.88,"body":"between the conscious scientists"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":682.88,"endTime":687.98,"body":"doing measurement and whether"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":682.88,"endTime":687.98,"body":"sort of reality collapsed from"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":687.98,"endTime":691.82,"body":"contingencies and possibilities"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":687.98,"endTime":691.82,"body":"into a singular reality. So"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":691.82,"endTime":694.76,"body":"there seemed to be a sort of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":691.82,"endTime":694.76,"body":"spooky connection between mind"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":694.76,"endTime":698.66,"body":"and matter that takes us a bit"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":694.76,"endTime":698.66,"body":"out of the purely clockwork"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":698.66,"endTime":702.52,"body":"universe model. And then, above"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":698.66,"endTime":702.52,"body":"all, you had a series of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":702.52,"endTime":708.52,"body":"discoveries about the ways in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":702.52,"endTime":708.52,"body":"which the laws and constants of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":708.58,"endTime":712.6,"body":"of this universe were set up"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":708.58,"endTime":712.6,"body":"that suggested what people now"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":712.6,"endTime":716.56,"body":"call fine tuning, the idea that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":712.6,"endTime":716.56,"body":"there were, you know, literally,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":716.56,"endTime":719.8,"body":"quadrillions of possible"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":716.56,"endTime":719.8,"body":"universes in which It was"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":719.8,"endTime":723.3,"body":"impossible for anything like"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":719.8,"endTime":723.3,"body":"human life to ever, ever"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":723.3,"endTime":727.74,"body":"develop, and then our universe"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":723.3,"endTime":727.74,"body":"was set in a kind of Goldilocks"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":727.8,"endTime":731.82,"body":"jackpot zone. Those are the kind"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":727.8,"endTime":731.82,"body":"of phrases that people, people"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":731.82,"endTime":735.3,"body":"talking about this use, where"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":731.82,"endTime":735.3,"body":"you know one constant is set"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":735.3,"endTime":738.78,"body":"exactly here and another is set"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":735.3,"endTime":738.78,"body":"exactly there, all of which is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":738.78,"endTime":743.12,"body":"necessary to produce basic"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":738.78,"endTime":743.12,"body":"order, stars, planets and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":743.18,"endTime":747.14,"body":"eventually life, life itself."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":743.18,"endTime":747.14,"body":"And that has left us in this"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":747.14,"endTime":752.3,"body":"curious position where the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":747.14,"endTime":752.3,"body":"alternative to a design"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":752.3,"endTime":756.02,"body":"hypothesis, a, you know, some"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":752.3,"endTime":756.02,"body":"kind of, you know, prime mover"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":756.02,"endTime":759.92,"body":"and so on. Coming back into the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":756.02,"endTime":759.92,"body":"picture is theories about a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":759.92,"endTime":764.86,"body":"multiverse, right? Where, in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":759.92,"endTime":764.86,"body":"effect, the hardened materialist"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":764.86,"endTime":769.78,"body":"is left to insist that the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":764.86,"endTime":769.78,"body":"reason we exist as we do is that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":769.78,"endTime":773.2,"body":"there is a near infinity of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":769.78,"endTime":773.2,"body":"other universes out there, all"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":773.2,"endTime":778.24,"body":"somehow invisible to us, that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":773.2,"endTime":778.24,"body":"are necessary to explain the one"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":778.24,"endTime":781.68,"body":"we have. You know that's that's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":778.24,"endTime":781.68,"body":"not a dynamic where it's clear"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":781.68,"endTime":787.38,"body":"that the materialist paradigm"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":781.68,"endTime":787.38,"body":"has, you know, any kind of claim"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":787.38,"endTime":790.56,"body":"to represent the kind of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":787.38,"endTime":790.56,"body":"parsimonious, hard headed"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":790.56,"endTime":795.0,"body":"alternative to wild thoughts"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":790.56,"endTime":795.0,"body":"about a creating God. In some"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":795.0,"endTime":799.02,"body":"ways, people argue about this,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":795.0,"endTime":799.02,"body":"but in some ways, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":799.2,"endTime":803.12,"body":"the argument from design seems"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":799.2,"endTime":803.12,"body":"like the much more parsimonious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":803.12,"endTime":806.9,"body":"explanation for why our universe"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":803.12,"endTime":806.9,"body":"appears to be ordered with us."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":806.9,"endTime":807.68,"body":"In mind,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":865.699,"endTime":868.279,"body":"that's good the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":865.699,"endTime":868.279,"body":"multiverse, the one thing I do"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":868.279,"endTime":872.959,"body":"know about the multiverse is it"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":868.279,"endTime":872.959,"body":"has made Marvel movies worse and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":875.06,"endTime":877.3,"body":"yes, well, it's an"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":875.06,"endTime":877.3,"body":"interesting thing. Where it's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":877.3,"endTime":882.04,"body":"been, it has been adopted into"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":877.3,"endTime":882.04,"body":"pop culture, right? And it's, it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":882.04,"endTime":886.12,"body":"is a case study in how, even you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":882.04,"endTime":886.12,"body":"know, the speculations the most"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":886.12,"endTime":889.54,"body":"sort of, you know, abs"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":886.12,"endTime":889.54,"body":"speculations of physicists and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":889.54,"endTime":893.62,"body":"philosophers eventually find"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":889.54,"endTime":893.62,"body":"their way into Marvel movies."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":893.68,"endTime":896.62,"body":"But it is a it, you know, they"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":893.68,"endTime":896.62,"body":"see it as it's like a cheat"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":896.62,"endTime":899.76,"body":"code, right? It's like, okay, we"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":896.62,"endTime":899.76,"body":"got bored with this storyline."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":899.76,"endTime":903.24,"body":"We can just reset it. It's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":899.76,"endTime":903.24,"body":"actually much better for drama"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":903.3,"endTime":906.0,"body":"and this, you can draw"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":903.3,"endTime":906.0,"body":"theological conclusions or not"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":906.0,"endTime":909.24,"body":"from this to have just one"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":906.0,"endTime":909.24,"body":"timeline that can't just be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":909.24,"endTime":911.9399999999999,"body":"reset every time everyone gets"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":909.24,"endTime":911.9399999999999,"body":"bored. And"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":911.939,"endTime":914.459,"body":"I mean, this is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":911.939,"endTime":914.459,"body":"the the story of who we are, I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":914.459,"endTime":918.319,"body":"think we it makes sense and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":914.459,"endTime":918.319,"body":"meaning of our lives. So if we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":918.319,"endTime":922.279,"body":"have a story of a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":918.319,"endTime":922.279,"body":"purposelessness, we have a story"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":922.279,"endTime":927.619,"body":"that there is just randomness"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":922.279,"endTime":927.619,"body":"everywhere. It seems to me that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":927.619,"endTime":929.5989999999999,"body":"there has been, there's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":927.619,"endTime":929.5989999999999,"body":"definitely been a rise in"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":929.5989999999999,"endTime":934.699,"body":"anxiety depression. There's been"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":929.5989999999999,"endTime":934.699,"body":"a rise in malaise of not knowing"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":934.759,"endTime":938.319,"body":"if there's anything here. I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":934.759,"endTime":938.319,"body":"think some people have thought"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":938.319,"endTime":942.2189999999999,"body":"that, hey, once we get rid of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":938.319,"endTime":942.2189999999999,"body":"religion, we could organize into"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":942.2189999999999,"endTime":947.319,"body":"other groups, and we could still"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":942.2189999999999,"endTime":947.319,"body":"find some meaning in the world,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":947.619,"endTime":950.739,"body":"and we'll we'll be okay, and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":947.619,"endTime":950.739,"body":"maybe we'll be even better than"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":950.739,"endTime":955.299,"body":"the institutions that we have"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":950.739,"endTime":955.299,"body":"left behind. So why has that not"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":955.299,"endTime":959.819,"body":"really panned out? Well. Well,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":955.299,"endTime":959.819,"body":"and why do you think religion is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":959.939,"endTime":962.519,"body":"a better answer? A couple"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":959.939,"endTime":962.519,"body":"reasons,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":962.52,"endTime":965.64,"body":"right. One reason"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":962.52,"endTime":965.64,"body":"is just the sort of you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":965.64,"endTime":970.86,"body":"the practical reality that the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":965.64,"endTime":970.86,"body":"claims that religion makes are"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":970.86,"endTime":975.66,"body":"more likely to inspire the kind"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":970.86,"endTime":975.66,"body":"of pro social behaviors that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":975.72,"endTime":979.22,"body":"even some secular people miss"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":975.72,"endTime":979.22,"body":"when religion declines, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":979.22,"endTime":983.84,"body":"So there have been endless"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":979.22,"endTime":983.84,"body":"attempts to set up communities,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":983.9,"endTime":988.28,"body":"congregational communities,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":983.9,"endTime":988.28,"body":"organized around, let's say, the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":988.28,"endTime":991.8199999999999,"body":"ethics of Christianity without"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":988.28,"endTime":991.8199999999999,"body":"the supernaturalism, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":992.12,"endTime":995.36,"body":"Some, some of these have a kind"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":992.12,"endTime":995.36,"body":"of quasi religious component,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":995.36,"endTime":999.28,"body":"right? And but many of them do"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":995.36,"endTime":999.28,"body":"not. You know the ethical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":999.28,"endTime":1002.16,"body":"culture societies, which still"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":999.28,"endTime":1002.16,"body":"exists, by the way, you know the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1002.16,"endTime":1005.6999999999999,"body":"sort of various atheist"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1002.16,"endTime":1005.6999999999999,"body":"societies and humanist societies"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1005.6999999999999,"endTime":1009.72,"body":"and so on. Who tried, tried to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1005.6999999999999,"endTime":1009.72,"body":"do these things. And the reality"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1009.72,"endTime":1012.96,"body":"is that if you're just telling"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1009.72,"endTime":1012.96,"body":"people, let's hang out and talk"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1012.96,"endTime":1017.12,"body":"about ethics, it's just not"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1012.96,"endTime":1017.12,"body":"doing the same kind of thing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1017.12,"endTime":1020.42,"body":"that an institution that's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1017.12,"endTime":1020.42,"body":"trying to sort of prepare people"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1020.42,"endTime":1024.74,"body":"for virtuous behavior through"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1020.42,"endTime":1024.74,"body":"the life cycle with an eye"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1024.74,"endTime":1027.08,"body":"towards your eventual"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1024.74,"endTime":1027.08,"body":"destination after death, is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1027.08,"endTime":1029.9,"body":"doing right? Like, what does a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1027.08,"endTime":1029.9,"body":"funeral look like at the ethical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1029.9,"endTime":1033.14,"body":"culture society, right? What"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1029.9,"endTime":1033.14,"body":"does a bar a bar mitzvah or bat"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1033.14,"endTime":1036.2,"body":"mitzvah look like in these kind"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1033.14,"endTime":1036.2,"body":"of secular religions? I think"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1036.2,"endTime":1039.3400000000001,"body":"it's obvious that you can do"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1036.2,"endTime":1039.3400000000001,"body":"things like that, do rites of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1039.3400000000001,"endTime":1041.92,"body":"passage and initiation and so"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1039.3400000000001,"endTime":1041.92,"body":"on, but they just aren't going"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1041.92,"endTime":1046.0,"body":"to have the same power and draw"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1041.92,"endTime":1046.0,"body":"people in in the same way. And"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1046.0,"endTime":1048.76,"body":"so those institutions are"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1046.0,"endTime":1048.76,"body":"weaker, and therefore don't do"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1048.76,"endTime":1052.54,"body":"the things, the sort of Alexis"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1048.76,"endTime":1052.54,"body":"de Tocqueville and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1052.9,"endTime":1056.68,"body":"social society building things"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1052.9,"endTime":1056.68,"body":"that religious institutions do,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1056.98,"endTime":1059.4,"body":"the other thing, and this, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1056.98,"endTime":1059.4,"body":"can see this, I think, play out"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1059.4,"endTime":1062.7,"body":"just in the last 15 years,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1059.4,"endTime":1062.7,"body":"right? Is that secular"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1062.7,"endTime":1065.7,"body":"alternatives to religion are"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1062.7,"endTime":1065.7,"body":"more appealing, naturally more"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1065.7,"endTime":1071.64,"body":"appealing if they can promise"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1065.7,"endTime":1071.64,"body":"definitively some kind of better"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1071.64,"endTime":1075.18,"body":"world, maybe not paradise, but"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1071.64,"endTime":1075.18,"body":"at least a better world in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1075.18,"endTime":1078.68,"body":"here and now. Right? The idea"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1075.18,"endTime":1078.68,"body":"that you don't need religion"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1078.68,"endTime":1082.04,"body":"because we have progress, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1078.68,"endTime":1082.04,"body":"You don't need heaven because"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1082.04,"endTime":1086.06,"body":"we're, we're getting toward"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1082.04,"endTime":1086.06,"body":"heaven on earth, right? And this"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1086.06,"endTime":1089.96,"body":"was obviously the tremendous"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1086.06,"endTime":1089.96,"body":"appeal of Marxism for so long,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1090.1399999999999,"endTime":1093.26,"body":"right? The Marxism said you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1090.1399999999999,"endTime":1093.26,"body":"don't need religion because,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1093.26,"endTime":1098.02,"body":"good news, the iron laws of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1093.26,"endTime":1098.02,"body":"history, the science, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1098.02,"endTime":1101.32,"body":"the science of socialist"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1098.02,"endTime":1101.32,"body":"materialism tells you that if"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1101.32,"endTime":1105.7,"body":"you do these things, if you work"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1101.32,"endTime":1105.7,"body":"for the revolution, you will get"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1106.0,"endTime":1109.18,"body":"a better world, a transformed"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1106.0,"endTime":1109.18,"body":"world, if not a heavenly world."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1109.18,"endTime":1112.36,"body":"The next best thing, right? If"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1109.18,"endTime":1112.36,"body":"you don't have that kind of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1112.48,"endTime":1117.72,"body":"confidence, then it's harder to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1112.48,"endTime":1117.72,"body":"sustain, to sustain a kind of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1117.72,"endTime":1120.84,"body":"secular form of faith and just"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1117.72,"endTime":1120.84,"body":"just in American life, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1120.84,"endTime":1126.06,"body":"Like it's easy. It was easier to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1120.84,"endTime":1126.06,"body":"be a secular, liberal"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1126.06,"endTime":1129.12,"body":"progressive in the time when"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1126.06,"endTime":1129.12,"body":"Barack Obama was elected"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1129.12,"endTime":1132.96,"body":"president, and it seemed like"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1129.12,"endTime":1132.96,"body":"there was a permanent Democratic"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1132.96,"endTime":1136.56,"body":"majority and that the future"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1132.96,"endTime":1136.56,"body":"belonged to liberalism than it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1136.56,"endTime":1139.82,"body":"is has been in the age of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1136.56,"endTime":1139.82,"body":"populism and Donald Trump and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1139.82,"endTime":1143.66,"body":"various defeats for liberalism,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1139.82,"endTime":1143.66,"body":"things not going liberalism's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1143.66,"endTime":1148.46,"body":"way right. And it's not a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1143.66,"endTime":1148.46,"body":"surprise that secular"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1148.46,"endTime":1152.6,"body":"progressivism would become more"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1148.46,"endTime":1152.6,"body":"pessimistic and despairing when"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1152.6,"endTime":1156.32,"body":"it's losing politically, because"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1152.6,"endTime":1156.32,"body":"politics is all in the end that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1156.32,"endTime":1160.0,"body":"secular progressivism has as a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1156.32,"endTime":1160.0,"body":"place to vest, to vest your"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1160.0,"endTime":1163.12,"body":"hope. So in microcosm, what's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1160.0,"endTime":1163.12,"body":"happened in the last 15 or 20"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1163.12,"endTime":1167.44,"body":"years is the larger problem with"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1163.12,"endTime":1167.44,"body":"secular utopianisms. They're"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1167.44,"endTime":1171.28,"body":"great when maybe not great, but"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1167.44,"endTime":1171.28,"body":"they're okay when things are"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1171.28,"endTime":1174.28,"body":"getting better or seem to be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1171.28,"endTime":1174.28,"body":"getting better, but if you have"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1174.28,"endTime":1178.44,"body":"setbacks, then you're thrown"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1174.28,"endTime":1178.44,"body":"back on the depressing reality"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1178.44,"endTime":1180.72,"body":"that it's a meaningless"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1178.44,"endTime":1180.72,"body":"universe, and you know, What?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1180.78,"endTime":1184.08,"body":"What? What? What's your what's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1180.78,"endTime":1184.08,"body":"your sucker and what's your"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1184.08,"endTime":1185.34,"body":"help? Exactly,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1185.58,"endTime":1188.16,"body":"I think, you"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1185.58,"endTime":1188.16,"body":"know, my friend talks about the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1188.16,"endTime":1192.66,"body":"the old ways, the ancient"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1188.16,"endTime":1192.66,"body":"religions as ancient wells. And"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1192.66,"endTime":1197.24,"body":"my question then is, why, when a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1192.66,"endTime":1197.24,"body":"lot of people think about"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1197.24,"endTime":1201.1399999999999,"body":"progress and moving forward,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1197.24,"endTime":1201.1399999999999,"body":"going into the future. Why do"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1201.1399999999999,"endTime":1204.56,"body":"you think religion is something"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1201.1399999999999,"endTime":1204.56,"body":"that has been around for for"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1204.56,"endTime":1209.48,"body":"centuries and centuries, and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1204.56,"endTime":1209.48,"body":"they are ancient wells of wisdom"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1209.54,"endTime":1216.82,"body":"and understanding for our world?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1209.54,"endTime":1216.82,"body":"Why do we reach back as we are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1216.82,"endTime":1219.6399999999999,"body":"moving and propelling forward"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1216.82,"endTime":1219.6399999999999,"body":"into the future."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1220.4189999999999,"endTime":1222.879,"body":"I mean, I think"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1220.4189999999999,"endTime":1222.879,"body":"that part of the assumption is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1222.879,"endTime":1228.099,"body":"that basic questions about human"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1222.879,"endTime":1228.099,"body":"life are persistent and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1228.099,"endTime":1232.4189999999999,"body":"permanent across different eras,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1228.099,"endTime":1232.4189999999999,"body":"right? You can't, you can't just"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1232.4189999999999,"endTime":1235.4189999999999,"body":"sort of, you know the just to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1232.4189999999999,"endTime":1235.4189999999999,"body":"take the basic question, like,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1235.4189999999999,"endTime":1238.559,"body":"you know, what happens to people"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1235.4189999999999,"endTime":1238.559,"body":"after they die? Right? Like,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1238.799,"endTime":1242.219,"body":"presumably, if that question has"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1238.799,"endTime":1242.219,"body":"an answer, it's not radically"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1242.219,"endTime":1245.219,"body":"altered by the Industrial"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1242.219,"endTime":1245.219,"body":"Revolution, the rise of the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1245.219,"endTime":1248.819,"body":"iPhone or anything like that,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1245.219,"endTime":1248.819,"body":"right? Questions of morality,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1248.819,"endTime":1251.339,"body":"maybe you could say are a little"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1248.819,"endTime":1251.339,"body":"different. You know, moral"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1251.339,"endTime":1254.879,"body":"landscape looks different in a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1251.339,"endTime":1254.879,"body":"pre industrial society than it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1254.879,"endTime":1257.959,"body":"does in a post industrial."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1254.879,"endTime":1257.959,"body":"Society. But I don't think"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1257.959,"endTime":1261.739,"body":"anyone thinks it looks that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1257.959,"endTime":1261.739,"body":"different, right? The questions"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1261.739,"endTime":1265.399,"body":"of what it means to live a good"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1261.739,"endTime":1265.399,"body":"life, you know, there's a reason"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1265.399,"endTime":1269.239,"body":"that people still read, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1265.399,"endTime":1269.239,"body":"know, there's a reason that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1269.599,"endTime":1273.619,"body":"Buddhism, you know, Buddhist"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1269.599,"endTime":1273.619,"body":"styles of meditation, can seem"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1273.619,"endTime":1277.059,"body":"deeply relevant to the most"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1273.619,"endTime":1277.059,"body":"harried modern person, even"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1277.059,"endTime":1280.299,"body":"though they developed in a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1277.059,"endTime":1280.299,"body":"completely different cultural,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1280.599,"endTime":1284.199,"body":"political and social context,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1280.599,"endTime":1284.199,"body":"right? So there is just sort of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1284.199,"endTime":1289.839,"body":"a permanent set of issues, of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1284.199,"endTime":1289.839,"body":"human issues that don't go away"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1289.959,"endTime":1293.979,"body":"and that require, in a sense,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1289.959,"endTime":1293.979,"body":"some form of reaching back and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1293.979,"endTime":1297.839,"body":"rediscovery when we sort of go"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1293.979,"endTime":1297.839,"body":"through a period where we think"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1297.839,"endTime":1301.259,"body":"that we've sort of transcended"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1297.839,"endTime":1301.259,"body":"the need for them. Now, I would"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1301.259,"endTime":1304.9189999999999,"body":"say two other things, though."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1301.259,"endTime":1304.9189999999999,"body":"One is that, you know that that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1304.9189999999999,"endTime":1310.199,"body":"reaching back and rediscovery is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1304.9189999999999,"endTime":1310.199,"body":"never just sort of a pure, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1310.199,"endTime":1315.839,"body":"know, a pure, sort of return to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1310.199,"endTime":1315.839,"body":"the past, right? All eras of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1315.839,"endTime":1320.059,"body":"religious revival or religious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1315.839,"endTime":1320.059,"body":"ferment, are eras in which"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1320.239,"endTime":1323.719,"body":"things from the past are sort of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1320.239,"endTime":1323.719,"body":"brought back, but they're also"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1324.139,"endTime":1327.499,"body":"reshaped and remade and made"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1324.139,"endTime":1327.499,"body":"new, right? And this is even"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1327.499,"endTime":1330.9189999999999,"body":"true of sort of forms of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1327.499,"endTime":1330.9189999999999,"body":"religion that appear, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1330.9189999999999,"endTime":1334.459,"body":"steeped in ancient tradition,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1330.9189999999999,"endTime":1334.459,"body":"right? Like just in my own"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1334.459,"endTime":1337.479,"body":"Catholic Church, a lot of what"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1334.459,"endTime":1337.479,"body":"you know, Latin Mass,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1337.479,"endTime":1342.699,"body":"traditionalism in the Catholic"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1337.479,"endTime":1342.699,"body":"Church has found a number of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1343.239,"endTime":1349.239,"body":"early 21st century converts and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1343.239,"endTime":1349.239,"body":"in part, Latin Mass, Catholicism"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1349.239,"endTime":1352.359,"body":"really does connect to the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1349.239,"endTime":1352.359,"body":"medieval church and the ancient"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1352.359,"endTime":1355.539,"body":"church. It really does go deep"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1352.359,"endTime":1355.539,"body":"into the past. There people are"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1355.539,"endTime":1358.979,"body":"not wrong about that, but it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1355.539,"endTime":1358.979,"body":"also includes elements that are"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1358.979,"endTime":1364.319,"body":"very much, very much belong to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1358.979,"endTime":1364.319,"body":"the 1800s and to sort of very,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1364.319,"endTime":1367.379,"body":"or the 19, early 1900s these"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1364.319,"endTime":1367.379,"body":"sort of very self conscious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1367.379,"endTime":1371.879,"body":"attempts to restore and renew"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1367.379,"endTime":1371.879,"body":"Catholic tradition in the face"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1371.939,"endTime":1375.779,"body":"of industrial modernity, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1371.939,"endTime":1375.779,"body":"But so both things are there and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1375.779,"endTime":1378.859,"body":"the same. So the same would be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1375.779,"endTime":1378.859,"body":"true if you had a, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1378.859,"endTime":1382.339,"body":"successful 21st century"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1378.859,"endTime":1382.339,"body":"religious revival would produce"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1382.759,"endTime":1387.079,"body":"a successful form of religious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1382.759,"endTime":1387.079,"body":"faith that was inevitably part"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1387.079,"endTime":1391.219,"body":"old and part new or part"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1387.079,"endTime":1391.219,"body":"reinvented at the same time."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1391.639,"endTime":1395.179,"body":"Then the final, the final point"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1391.639,"endTime":1395.179,"body":"is just on this question. There"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1395.179,"endTime":1398.559,"body":"is, of course, right now, as an"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1395.179,"endTime":1398.559,"body":"alternative to religion, or"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1398.559,"endTime":1402.939,"body":"maybe a form of religion, the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1398.559,"endTime":1402.939,"body":"idea of transhumanism, right"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1402.999,"endTime":1407.019,"body":"that is very powerful in Silicon"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1402.999,"endTime":1407.019,"body":"Valley right now. It takes sort"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1407.019,"endTime":1409.779,"body":"of, you know, genetic and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1407.019,"endTime":1409.779,"body":"biological forms. Right now,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1409.779,"endTime":1413.259,"body":"it's more focused on AI and sort"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1409.779,"endTime":1413.259,"body":"of ideas of digital life and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1413.259,"endTime":1418.439,"body":"digital intelligence. But there"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1413.259,"endTime":1418.439,"body":"is clearly an idea in human life"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1418.439,"endTime":1422.579,"body":"that maybe you could transcend"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1418.439,"endTime":1422.579,"body":"human nature, right, and get to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1422.579,"endTime":1424.979,"body":"a point where, in that case,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1422.579,"endTime":1424.979,"body":"maybe the religious questions"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1424.979,"endTime":1427.799,"body":"would be different, or something"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1424.979,"endTime":1427.799,"body":"like that. I don't think that is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1428.339,"endTime":1432.299,"body":"likely, but it is worth"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1428.339,"endTime":1432.299,"body":"describing as a you know, as"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1432.479,"endTime":1435.839,"body":"part of the conversation right"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1432.479,"endTime":1435.839,"body":"now, right? That like there's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1435.839,"endTime":1439.639,"body":"renewed interest in religion,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1435.839,"endTime":1439.639,"body":"but there is also transhumanism"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1439.639,"endTime":1445.099,"body":"as an intellectual force in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1439.639,"endTime":1445.099,"body":"conversation, especially in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1445.099,"endTime":1448.879,"body":"elite in elite circles and the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1445.099,"endTime":1448.879,"body":"most sort of future and forward"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1448.879,"endTime":1450.079,"body":"oriented circles,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1450.32,"endTime":1453.74,"body":"yes, and it"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1450.32,"endTime":1453.74,"body":"feels to me, a new form of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1453.74,"endTime":1457.84,"body":"religion. It looks like all of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1453.74,"endTime":1457.84,"body":"the Silicon Valley executives"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1457.9,"endTime":1463.18,"body":"are dressing alike. They're all"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1457.9,"endTime":1463.18,"body":"going to the to the gym, working"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1463.18,"endTime":1466.78,"body":"out. They're all into, you know,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1463.18,"endTime":1466.78,"body":"health and well being. They're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1466.78,"endTime":1469.72,"body":"organizing around something,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1466.78,"endTime":1469.72,"body":"right? And their their belief"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1469.72,"endTime":1472.84,"body":"that we can actually transcend"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1469.72,"endTime":1472.84,"body":"some of this human experience"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1472.84,"endTime":1477.3,"body":"and maybe live for, you know,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1472.84,"endTime":1477.3,"body":"centuries on my own, like I'm"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1477.3,"endTime":1481.44,"body":"trying to do this on my own. A"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1477.3,"endTime":1481.44,"body":"lot of these scientific"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1481.44,"endTime":1486.18,"body":"discoveries after pernicus and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1481.44,"endTime":1486.18,"body":"Darwin made us into a lot of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1486.18,"endTime":1489.24,"body":"materialists and thinking that"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1486.18,"endTime":1489.24,"body":"maybe if we got rid of the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1489.24,"endTime":1494.16,"body":"institutions, our mystical"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1489.24,"endTime":1494.16,"body":"experiences, singing angels and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1494.16,"endTime":1498.62,"body":"demons and the supernatural will"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1494.16,"endTime":1498.62,"body":"go away. But we've been"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1498.62,"endTime":1502.34,"body":"discovering that the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1498.62,"endTime":1502.34,"body":"supernatural is encroaching on"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1502.34,"endTime":1505.6399999999999,"body":"our world because it's always"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1502.34,"endTime":1505.6399999999999,"body":"there, but it is encroaching on"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1505.6399999999999,"endTime":1508.52,"body":"our world in ways where we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1505.6399999999999,"endTime":1508.52,"body":"haven't actually seen for a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1508.52,"endTime":1513.56,"body":"while, even though it's probably"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1508.52,"endTime":1513.56,"body":"always been happening. So what"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1513.56,"endTime":1517.0,"body":"is happening when you're looking"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1513.56,"endTime":1517.0,"body":"as a journalist, what have you"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1517.0,"endTime":1521.44,"body":"started to discover with near"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1517.0,"endTime":1521.44,"body":"death experiences and others as"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1521.44,"endTime":1523.78,"body":"they're they're seeing the and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1521.44,"endTime":1523.78,"body":"interacting with the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1523.78,"endTime":1524.44,"body":"supernatural?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1525.1,"endTime":1527.98,"body":"Yeah. I mean, so"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1525.1,"endTime":1527.98,"body":"111, point to make, right is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1527.98,"endTime":1531.46,"body":"that there's an idea that the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1527.98,"endTime":1531.46,"body":"world was disenchanted by"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1531.46,"endTime":1534.16,"body":"modernity. And this is a very"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1531.46,"endTime":1534.16,"body":"powerful idea, and it's held by"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1534.16,"endTime":1537.24,"body":"secular people and religious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1534.16,"endTime":1537.24,"body":"people, and I think it's an"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1537.24,"endTime":1540.36,"body":"incomplete way of looking at"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1537.24,"endTime":1540.36,"body":"things. I think that what was"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1540.36,"endTime":1544.26,"body":"disenchanted was what we might"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1540.36,"endTime":1544.26,"body":"call official knowledge, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1544.26,"endTime":1548.82,"body":"Which is to say, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1544.26,"endTime":1548.82,"body":"you are a student in a law"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1548.82,"endTime":1552.9,"body":"school and you're writing up,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1548.82,"endTime":1552.9,"body":"you know, a paper on the history"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1552.9,"endTime":1556.44,"body":"of some legal debate, you would"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1552.9,"endTime":1556.44,"body":"not put in, you know. And then."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1556.52,"endTime":1559.7,"body":"So and So cast a spell on so and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1556.52,"endTime":1559.7,"body":"so, right? And you know, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1559.7,"endTime":1563.72,"body":"would not be taken seriously if"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1559.7,"endTime":1563.72,"body":"you included or similarly, like,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1563.72,"endTime":1566.48,"body":"if you read Wikipedia pages,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1563.72,"endTime":1566.48,"body":"right? Wikipedia is sort of the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1566.48,"endTime":1569.42,"body":"official knowledge of the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1566.48,"endTime":1569.42,"body":"internet. Wikipedia editors are"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1569.42,"endTime":1573.44,"body":"extremely hostile to anything"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1569.42,"endTime":1573.44,"body":"related to the supernatural,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1573.44,"endTime":1575.96,"body":"right? So there's a kind of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1573.44,"endTime":1575.96,"body":"official knowledge production"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1576.2,"endTime":1580.9,"body":"that sees itself as necessarily"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1576.2,"endTime":1580.9,"body":"excluding those possibilities,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1581.26,"endTime":1585.16,"body":"but in terms of experiences,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1581.26,"endTime":1585.16,"body":"terms of the experiences that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1585.16,"endTime":1588.7,"body":"people had and the shaping"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1585.16,"endTime":1588.7,"body":"effects they have on individual"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1588.7,"endTime":1591.6399999999999,"body":"lives and religious conversions"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1588.7,"endTime":1591.6399999999999,"body":"and culture and so on, there's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1591.6399999999999,"endTime":1595.66,"body":"no real evidence at all that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1591.6399999999999,"endTime":1595.66,"body":"religious experience, mystical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1595.66,"endTime":1600.42,"body":"experience, apparent miracles,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1595.66,"endTime":1600.42,"body":"healings and so on, visions,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1600.66,"endTime":1604.02,"body":"psychic experiences, that any of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1600.66,"endTime":1604.02,"body":"this became less common under"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1604.02,"endTime":1607.8,"body":"modern conditions. And if you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1604.02,"endTime":1607.8,"body":"read some of the 18th century"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1607.8,"endTime":1610.98,"body":"rationalists and skeptics, I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1607.8,"endTime":1610.98,"body":"quote David Hume in the book,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1611.04,"endTime":1615.6,"body":"there are others. You know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1611.04,"endTime":1615.6,"body":"their their assumption was, yes,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1615.6,"endTime":1618.02,"body":"people are credulous. You know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1615.6,"endTime":1618.02,"body":"there'll be belief in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1618.02,"endTime":1620.9,"body":"supernatural. But once we get"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1618.02,"endTime":1620.9,"body":"rid of established religions and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1621.02,"endTime":1624.1399999999999,"body":"stop teaching people, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1621.02,"endTime":1624.1399999999999,"body":"about the miracles of Jesus and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1624.1399999999999,"endTime":1627.8,"body":"so on, a lot of this stuff will"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1624.1399999999999,"endTime":1627.8,"body":"just sort of fade. And it hasn't"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1627.8,"endTime":1630.8,"body":"faded. In fact, you know, if you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1627.8,"endTime":1630.8,"body":"look at like pentecostalist"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1630.8,"endTime":1633.32,"body":"Christianity, you know, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1630.8,"endTime":1633.32,"body":"the emergent forms of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1633.32,"endTime":1637.9,"body":"Christianity have been more"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1633.32,"endTime":1637.9,"body":"supernaturalist than a stayed"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1637.9,"endTime":1640.9,"body":"kind of Presbyterianism or"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1637.9,"endTime":1640.9,"body":"something would have been right."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1641.1399999999999,"endTime":1644.8,"body":"That's sort of the baseline."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1641.1399999999999,"endTime":1644.8,"body":"Then you have specific things,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1644.8,"endTime":1647.62,"body":"and you mentioned near death"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1644.8,"endTime":1647.62,"body":"experiences, and that is sort of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1647.62,"endTime":1652.3,"body":"the prime example specific kinds"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1647.62,"endTime":1652.3,"body":"of mystical experience that have"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1652.3,"endTime":1656.56,"body":"become easier to study and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1652.3,"endTime":1656.56,"body":"observe under modern conditions"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1656.56,"endTime":1659.58,"body":"because we bring more people"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1656.56,"endTime":1659.58,"body":"back from the threshold of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1659.58,"endTime":1662.94,"body":"death, right? So we now know"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1659.58,"endTime":1662.94,"body":"more about the kind of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1662.94,"endTime":1666.24,"body":"experiences that people have on"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1662.94,"endTime":1666.24,"body":"that threshold, and we know that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1666.24,"endTime":1670.5,"body":"there are sort of consistent"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1666.24,"endTime":1670.5,"body":"seeming experiences across"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1670.5,"endTime":1674.94,"body":"cultures that are not just, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1670.5,"endTime":1674.94,"body":"know, sort of garbled"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1674.94,"endTime":1677.72,"body":"hallucinations or whatever you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1674.94,"endTime":1677.72,"body":"would expect a dying brain to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1677.72,"endTime":1682.1,"body":"produce, but that map in a very"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1677.72,"endTime":1682.1,"body":"general and not theologically"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1682.1,"endTime":1686.84,"body":"specific way. I want to stress"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1682.1,"endTime":1686.84,"body":"onto broad expectations about,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1687.62,"endTime":1691.8799999999999,"body":"you know, God, angels, meeting"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1687.62,"endTime":1691.8799999999999,"body":"your dead ancestors,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1691.8799999999999,"endTime":1695.36,"body":"experiencing some kind of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1691.8799999999999,"endTime":1695.36,"body":"judgment. There are hellish and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1695.36,"endTime":1698.56,"body":"purgatorial near death"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1695.36,"endTime":1698.56,"body":"experiences as well, and this is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1698.56,"endTime":1701.32,"body":"just a feature of human"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1698.56,"endTime":1701.32,"body":"existence that we know more"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1701.32,"endTime":1704.74,"body":"about than we did a couple 100"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1701.32,"endTime":1704.74,"body":"years ago. Does it prove that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1704.74,"endTime":1709.24,"body":"there's life after death? No,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1704.74,"endTime":1709.24,"body":"but it makes it more plausible"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1709.48,"endTime":1711.94,"body":"than it would have been had we"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1709.48,"endTime":1711.94,"body":"started bringing people back"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1711.94,"endTime":1714.6399999999999,"body":"from the dead, and these"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1711.94,"endTime":1714.6399999999999,"body":"experiences didn't exist, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1715.24,"endTime":1720.12,"body":"So there's there's changes like"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1715.24,"endTime":1720.12,"body":"that then and last and here, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1720.12,"endTime":1723.12,"body":"a little less certain where"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1720.12,"endTime":1723.12,"body":"we're actually going. But there"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1723.12,"endTime":1727.1399999999999,"body":"is, in this particular moment,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1723.12,"endTime":1727.1399999999999,"body":"in the last 10 or 15 years, just"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1727.2,"endTime":1732.42,"body":"more supernatural interest in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1727.2,"endTime":1732.42,"body":"the culture, more people, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1732.42,"endTime":1736.3799999999999,"body":"know, taking psychedelic drugs,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1732.42,"endTime":1736.3799999999999,"body":"doing Ayahuasca retreats with"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1736.3799999999999,"endTime":1740.0,"body":"shamans and saying, I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1736.3799999999999,"endTime":1740.0,"body":"trying. I'm not just, I don't"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1740.0,"endTime":1743.18,"body":"think this is just in my brain."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1740.0,"endTime":1743.18,"body":"I'm trying to get in touch with"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1743.48,"endTime":1746.48,"body":"the supernatural people doing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1743.48,"endTime":1746.48,"body":"the same things in the context"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1746.48,"endTime":1751.8799999999999,"body":"of, like, UFOs, not, not"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1746.48,"endTime":1751.8799999999999,"body":"imagining them to be aliens from"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1751.8799999999999,"endTime":1756.2,"body":"Vulcan or Klingon, but like, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1751.8799999999999,"endTime":1756.2,"body":"know, interdimensional God,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1756.2,"endTime":1760.12,"body":"like, beings, these, these kind"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1756.2,"endTime":1760.12,"body":"of things, right? And so at the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1760.12,"endTime":1763.72,"body":"very least, it's a kind of 1970s"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1760.12,"endTime":1763.72,"body":"style moment where there's just"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1763.78,"endTime":1769.3,"body":"a lot of bubbling supernatural"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1763.78,"endTime":1769.3,"body":"interest. I how far this goes."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1769.3,"endTime":1772.12,"body":"Maybe it's just, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1769.3,"endTime":1772.12,"body":"a cycle, right? And maybe it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1772.12,"endTime":1776.44,"body":"goes away. You know, it is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1772.12,"endTime":1776.44,"body":"possible to imagine things"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1776.44,"endTime":1779.58,"body":"happening that were observed or"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1776.44,"endTime":1779.58,"body":"witnessed, right? That could"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1779.6399999999999,"endTime":1782.76,"body":"change how the culture's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1779.6399999999999,"endTime":1782.76,"body":"official knowledge regards the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1782.76,"endTime":1786.9,"body":"supernatural. I wouldn't exclude"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1782.76,"endTime":1786.9,"body":"that as a possibility. I think,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1787.08,"endTime":1789.84,"body":"I think the next, you know, 20"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1787.08,"endTime":1789.84,"body":"or 30 years will be quite"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1789.84,"endTime":1793.8,"body":"interesting in that regard."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1789.84,"endTime":1793.8,"body":"People are, people are opening"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1793.8,"endTime":1800.42,"body":"doors, sometimes in cautiously"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1793.8,"endTime":1800.42,"body":"and unwisely, in my view, and it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1800.42,"endTime":1803.42,"body":"will be interesting to see what"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1800.42,"endTime":1803.42,"body":"passes through, if anything,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1803.66,"endTime":1807.02,"body":"yes. And so I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1803.66,"endTime":1807.02,"body":"have a belief that there are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1807.56,"endTime":1812.18,"body":"forces of evil and there are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1807.56,"endTime":1812.18,"body":"heavenly forces of goods as"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1812.18,"endTime":1816.94,"body":"well, and we could actually"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1812.18,"endTime":1816.94,"body":"access forces of evil that will"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1816.94,"endTime":1822.52,"body":"really do harm to us and our"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1816.94,"endTime":1822.52,"body":"communities as well. That"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1822.52,"endTime":1826.12,"body":"that is the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1822.52,"endTime":1826.12,"body":"traditional teaching. And I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1826.12,"endTime":1830.8,"body":"think that you know, you can"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1826.12,"endTime":1830.8,"body":"certainly see evidence in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1830.8,"endTime":1833.56,"body":"realms of spiritual"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1830.8,"endTime":1833.56,"body":"experimentation, where people"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1833.56,"endTime":1837.24,"body":"are operating outside of any"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1833.56,"endTime":1837.24,"body":"kind of formal Christian or"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1837.24,"endTime":1841.74,"body":"otherwise paradigm. Plenty of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1837.24,"endTime":1841.74,"body":"case studies that seem to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1842.28,"endTime":1846.48,"body":"confirm, at the very least, that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1842.28,"endTime":1846.48,"body":"there are spiritual entities out"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1846.48,"endTime":1850.1399999999999,"body":"there that don't have our good"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1846.48,"endTime":1850.1399999999999,"body":"in mind. And you see, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1850.1399999999999,"endTime":1854.58,"body":"kind of there, it's amusing,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1850.1399999999999,"endTime":1854.58,"body":"maybe not amusing, right? You"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1854.58,"endTime":1857.3,"body":"know, you'll read literature."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1854.58,"endTime":1857.3,"body":"For instance, people. People who"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1857.3,"endTime":1860.24,"body":"are interested in psychedelics"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1857.3,"endTime":1860.24,"body":"or doing psychedelics, and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1860.24,"endTime":1863.9,"body":"people will say, ah, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1860.24,"endTime":1863.9,"body":"we keep having encounters with"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1863.9,"endTime":1867.98,"body":"what we call negative entities."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1863.9,"endTime":1867.98,"body":"What do we do when we encounter"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1867.98,"endTime":1871.28,"body":"a negative entity? And"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1867.98,"endTime":1871.28,"body":"obviously, Christianity has some"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1871.28,"endTime":1874.76,"body":"specific views on that, but"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1871.28,"endTime":1874.76,"body":"that's, you know, but people"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1874.76,"endTime":1877.96,"body":"are, yeah, people are sort of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1874.76,"endTime":1877.96,"body":"going out and having encounters."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1877.96,"endTime":1881.86,"body":"This is true in the mystical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1877.96,"endTime":1881.86,"body":"experience writ large, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1881.86,"endTime":1885.76,"body":"That, like in a secularized"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1881.86,"endTime":1885.76,"body":"society, what you don't get."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1885.76,"endTime":1888.4,"body":"It's not that mystical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1885.76,"endTime":1888.4,"body":"experience goes away, it's that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1888.4,"endTime":1892.0,"body":"people lose a common language to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1888.4,"endTime":1892.0,"body":"describe what it is, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1892.0,"endTime":1894.6399999999999,"body":"People will be like, Wow, I, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1892.0,"endTime":1894.6399999999999,"body":"know, I had this experience, and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1894.6399999999999,"endTime":1898.08,"body":"it was seems sort of ultimate"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1894.6399999999999,"endTime":1898.08,"body":"and absolute. But, you know, is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1898.08,"endTime":1901.3799999999999,"body":"it really, God, can I use those"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1898.08,"endTime":1901.3799999999999,"body":"kind of archaic terms to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1901.3799999999999,"endTime":1904.8,"body":"describe this experience?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1901.3799999999999,"endTime":1904.8,"body":"There's, there's a lot of of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1904.8,"endTime":1907.92,"body":"that, I think, in the culture"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":1904.8,"endTime":1907.92,"body":"right now."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1969.2,"endTime":1972.68,"body":"I just randomly"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1969.2,"endTime":1972.68,"body":"picked up Sebastian younger in"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1972.68,"endTime":1976.04,"body":"my time, a great example. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1972.68,"endTime":1976.04,"body":"and, you know, as he"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1976.04,"endTime":1980.32,"body":"experienced, has this near death"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1976.04,"endTime":1980.32,"body":"experience, he sees his father"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1980.74,"endTime":1985.0,"body":"in a vision and sees other"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1980.74,"endTime":1985.0,"body":"things. He then tries to figure"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1985.0,"endTime":1988.54,"body":"out what in the world is this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1985.0,"endTime":1988.54,"body":"and what happens? Yep, and the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1988.54,"endTime":1992.8,"body":"end to me, it feels like, well,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1988.54,"endTime":1992.8,"body":"I don't know, and we can't"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1992.8,"endTime":1996.64,"body":"really explain it, I'll just be"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1992.8,"endTime":1996.64,"body":"loved by my family, and I'll"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1996.64,"endTime":2001.1,"body":"love my family. And so how does"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":1996.64,"endTime":2001.1,"body":"this then move us into a place?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2001.1,"endTime":2004.34,"body":"Why do you think religion"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2001.1,"endTime":2004.34,"body":"actually then organizing into a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2004.34,"endTime":2010.46,"body":"religion to to help us encounter"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2004.34,"endTime":2010.46,"body":"mystery, wonder, the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2010.46,"endTime":2014.6,"body":"unexplainable in community? What"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2010.46,"endTime":2014.6,"body":"do you think that is important"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2014.6,"endTime":2018.28,"body":"for us to move into instead of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2014.6,"endTime":2018.28,"body":"just going, hey, there are"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2018.28,"endTime":2022.42,"body":"unexplainable things. Let's just"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2018.28,"endTime":2022.42,"body":"live our life and love our"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2022.42,"endTime":2024.04,"body":"family. Yeah?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2024.04,"endTime":2026.62,"body":"I mean, I found,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2024.04,"endTime":2026.62,"body":"yeah. I found the end, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2026.8,"endTime":2031.06,"body":"of, you know, of the younger"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2026.8,"endTime":2031.06,"body":"book, disappointing in that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2031.06,"endTime":2034.0,"body":"sense, but also characteristic"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2031.06,"endTime":2034.0,"body":"of the phenomenon, yeah, that I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2034.0,"endTime":2037.42,"body":"was, that I was just describing,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2034.0,"endTime":2037.42,"body":"right, where people have these"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2037.42,"endTime":2040.14,"body":"kind of encounters. Barbara"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2037.42,"endTime":2040.14,"body":"Aaron Reich, a you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2040.14,"endTime":2043.74,"body":"political journalist, woman of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2040.14,"endTime":2043.74,"body":"the left, wrote and wrote a book"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2043.92,"endTime":2046.68,"body":"not about near death"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2043.92,"endTime":2046.68,"body":"experiences, but about, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2046.68,"endTime":2049.98,"body":"know, mystical experiences"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2046.68,"endTime":2049.98,"body":"called Living with a wild God"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2050.22,"endTime":2053.04,"body":"that had the same kind of flavor"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2050.22,"endTime":2053.04,"body":"as younger as book. Like these"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2053.04,"endTime":2057.06,"body":"things happen, these, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2053.04,"endTime":2057.06,"body":"mystical encounters. They sort"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2057.06,"endTime":2060.8599999999997,"body":"of lead her beyond materialism,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2057.06,"endTime":2060.8599999999997,"body":"but she resists the idea that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2060.8599999999997,"endTime":2065.66,"body":"they should ever lead you into"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2060.8599999999997,"endTime":2065.66,"body":"organized religion. And I think"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2065.66,"endTime":2069.8599999999997,"body":"that's a mistake. I think the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2065.66,"endTime":2069.8599999999997,"body":"best way to describe the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2069.8599999999997,"endTime":2073.7,"body":"mistake, right, is to say, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2069.8599999999997,"endTime":2073.7,"body":"know, look, these, these things"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2073.7,"endTime":2076.7599999999998,"body":"are not actually random, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2073.7,"endTime":2076.7599999999998,"body":"Like, if you read Aaron Reich's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2076.8199999999997,"endTime":2079.06,"body":"in kind of encounters, or you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2076.8199999999997,"endTime":2079.06,"body":"read Jungers encounters."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2079.06,"endTime":2082.06,"body":"Obviously, they're sort of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2079.06,"endTime":2082.06,"body":"personal distinctives, but they"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2082.54,"endTime":2087.7599999999998,"body":"they tend to fit reasonably well"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2082.54,"endTime":2087.7599999999998,"body":"into the broader mystical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2087.7599999999998,"endTime":2091.54,"body":"traditions. Again, as I said"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2087.7599999999998,"endTime":2091.54,"body":"earlier, that sort of show up in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2091.54,"endTime":2094.42,"body":"multiple world religions, not"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2091.54,"endTime":2094.42,"body":"just in one, right? So like"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2094.42,"endTime":2099.48,"body":"there is some, they suggest that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2094.42,"endTime":2099.48,"body":"there's some primal reality that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2099.48,"endTime":2102.3599999999997,"body":"different people get in touch"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2099.48,"endTime":2102.3599999999997,"body":"with in different ways, but you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2102.6,"endTime":2105.2999999999997,"body":"are more likely to get in touch"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2102.6,"endTime":2105.2999999999997,"body":"with when you're about to die,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2105.8399999999997,"endTime":2113.04,"body":"right? And when you combine that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2105.8399999999997,"endTime":2113.04,"body":"with like, the case for religion"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2113.46,"endTime":2116.52,"body":"that I try and make in the book"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2113.46,"endTime":2116.52,"body":"is a case about converging lines"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2116.52,"endTime":2119.54,"body":"of evidence, right? So it's not"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2116.52,"endTime":2119.54,"body":"it's not okay, it's not mystical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2119.54,"endTime":2122.36,"body":"experience alone. Mystical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2119.54,"endTime":2122.36,"body":"experience is really interesting"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2122.36,"endTime":2125.12,"body":"and telling, and sort of pushes"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2122.36,"endTime":2125.12,"body":"you in a particular direction,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2125.36,"endTime":2129.38,"body":"but you want to combine that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2125.36,"endTime":2129.38,"body":"with the evidence for cosmic"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2129.38,"endTime":2131.9,"body":"design, right? It's like, okay,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2129.38,"endTime":2131.9,"body":"the universe appears to be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2131.9,"endTime":2135.44,"body":"organized and ordered, not"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2131.9,"endTime":2135.44,"body":"accidentally, maybe with us in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2135.44,"endTime":2139.54,"body":"mind, oh, and our minds, our"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2135.44,"endTime":2139.54,"body":"consciousness, turn out to be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2139.54,"endTime":2142.96,"body":"able to perceive and understand"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2139.54,"endTime":2142.96,"body":"and penetrate the mysteries of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2142.96,"endTime":2145.84,"body":"this universe in ways we"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2142.96,"endTime":2145.84,"body":"wouldn't have expected. And oh,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2145.84,"endTime":2149.1400000000003,"body":"by the way, lots of people have"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2145.84,"endTime":2149.1400000000003,"body":"these mystical experiences that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2149.1400000000003,"endTime":2153.7000000000003,"body":"seem to bring them in touch with"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2149.1400000000003,"endTime":2153.7000000000003,"body":"some absolute form of being and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2153.7000000000003,"endTime":2156.4,"body":"some kind of life after death. I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2153.7000000000003,"endTime":2156.4,"body":"think when you put all those"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2156.4,"endTime":2160.6800000000003,"body":"things together, that's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2156.4,"endTime":2160.6800000000003,"body":"evidence that there's a story"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2160.6800000000003,"endTime":2164.6400000000003,"body":"going on here. We're part of a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2160.6800000000003,"endTime":2164.6400000000003,"body":"story. We don't know all of the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2164.6400000000003,"endTime":2167.82,"body":"story. We don't know everything"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2164.6400000000003,"endTime":2167.82,"body":"that's going on, but whatever"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2167.82,"endTime":2171.66,"body":"the story is, on the evidence of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2167.82,"endTime":2171.66,"body":"Jungers experience and others,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2171.66,"endTime":2174.24,"body":"it seems like it may be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2171.66,"endTime":2174.24,"body":"consummated at the end of our"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2174.24,"endTime":2177.12,"body":"life, or at least there's some"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2174.24,"endTime":2177.12,"body":"kind of transition. It seems"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2177.12,"endTime":2182.78,"body":"like some higher agent has put"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2177.12,"endTime":2182.78,"body":"us here for a reason, and oh, by"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2182.78,"endTime":2186.44,"body":"the way, there are a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2182.78,"endTime":2186.44,"body":"distinct but with some"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2186.44,"endTime":2190.52,"body":"convergences traditions around"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2186.44,"endTime":2190.52,"body":"the world that have spent 1000s"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2190.52,"endTime":2194.66,"body":"of years thinking and arguing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2190.52,"endTime":2194.66,"body":"and talking about what all of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2194.66,"endTime":2199.78,"body":"this means and what one might"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2194.66,"endTime":2199.78,"body":"do, collectively, with support"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2199.78,"endTime":2204.16,"body":"from other people, not just on"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2199.78,"endTime":2204.16,"body":"your own, to one, live in some,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2204.22,"endTime":2206.62,"body":"try and live in some kind of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2204.22,"endTime":2206.62,"body":"relationship to ultimate"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2206.62,"endTime":2209.38,"body":"reality, not, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2206.62,"endTime":2209.38,"body":"don't have to become a monk or,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2209.38,"endTime":2212.08,"body":"you know, go live on a pillar in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2209.38,"endTime":2212.08,"body":"the desert. Maybe some people,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2212.08,"endTime":2215.38,"body":"maybe should. But no, this is,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2212.08,"endTime":2215.38,"body":"you know, you're going to church"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2215.38,"endTime":2217.74,"body":"on Sunday, right? You're doing,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2215.38,"endTime":2217.74,"body":"you know, you're you. Doing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2217.74,"endTime":2221.22,"body":"certain disciplinary things"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2217.74,"endTime":2221.22,"body":"integrated with your normal life"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2221.22,"endTime":2224.7,"body":"that try and keep you connected"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2221.22,"endTime":2224.7,"body":"to the ultimate as well as the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2224.7,"endTime":2229.44,"body":"everyday. And you're trying to,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2224.7,"endTime":2229.44,"body":"you know, be a good person and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2229.74,"endTime":2234.06,"body":"prepare, but in a context where"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2229.74,"endTime":2234.06,"body":"that is oriented towards"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2234.42,"endTime":2237.6,"body":"whatever happens after death and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2234.42,"endTime":2237.6,"body":"ultimate reality, rather than"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2237.6,"endTime":2240.62,"body":"just towards the secular and the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2237.6,"endTime":2240.62,"body":"material. And I just think it's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2240.62,"endTime":2245.36,"body":"really hard to come up with a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2240.62,"endTime":2245.36,"body":"better system on your own for"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2245.36,"endTime":2249.44,"body":"organizing your life as a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2245.36,"endTime":2249.44,"body":"response to those realities than"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2249.44,"endTime":2253.4,"body":"what is offered in in organized"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2249.44,"endTime":2253.4,"body":"religion. And it's certainly"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2253.4,"endTime":2256.7,"body":"better, like it's one thing to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2253.4,"endTime":2256.7,"body":"say, I've had these experiences,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2257.36,"endTime":2261.64,"body":"and now I'm going to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2257.36,"endTime":2261.64,"body":"go off on my own spirit quest"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2261.64,"endTime":2265.78,"body":"and figure things out. I think"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2261.64,"endTime":2265.78,"body":"that has problems, including the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2265.78,"endTime":2268.72,"body":"problem of demons that we were"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2265.78,"endTime":2268.72,"body":"just discussing, but at least"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2268.72,"endTime":2272.98,"body":"that has ambition, right? At"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2268.72,"endTime":2272.98,"body":"least that is a response I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2272.98,"endTime":2277.74,"body":"really don't understand. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2272.98,"endTime":2277.74,"body":"I do. It's very human in a way,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2277.74,"endTime":2282.18,"body":"but I struggle with the kind of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2277.74,"endTime":2282.18,"body":"shrugging reaction, like, Whoa."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2282.6,"endTime":2286.02,"body":"That was crazy, man, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2282.6,"endTime":2286.02,"body":"but I guess I just got to live"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2286.02,"endTime":2290.22,"body":"my life. It's like, No, you need"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2286.02,"endTime":2290.22,"body":"to, in some way change your life"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2290.76,"endTime":2294.3,"body":"if you think these things are"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2290.76,"endTime":2294.3,"body":"possibly real and possibly"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2294.96,"endTime":2296.16,"body":"possibly serious."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2296.7,"endTime":2299.0,"body":"A lot of this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2296.7,"endTime":2299.0,"body":"guide, the spirit guide. We're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2299.06,"endTime":2304.46,"body":"on a quest to figure out what is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2299.06,"endTime":2304.46,"body":"happening. We're seekers, trying"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2304.46,"endTime":2308.84,"body":"to figure out what's going on in"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2304.46,"endTime":2308.84,"body":"this world. But we in the in the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2308.84,"endTime":2311.6,"body":"West, particularly in America,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2308.84,"endTime":2311.6,"body":"we live in a hyper"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2311.6,"endTime":2316.7,"body":"individualized culture. It's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2311.6,"endTime":2316.7,"body":"it's really about us and our"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2316.7,"endTime":2321.64,"body":"well being and who we are, and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2316.7,"endTime":2321.64,"body":"we're going to get ahead. Why?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2321.64,"endTime":2325.84,"body":"Why do you think organized"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2321.64,"endTime":2325.84,"body":"religion as a construct for"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2325.84,"endTime":2331.9,"body":"community and being in a more"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2325.84,"endTime":2331.9,"body":"communal type area is better for"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2331.9,"endTime":2336.82,"body":"us and more helpful for us long"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2331.9,"endTime":2336.82,"body":"run, then just saying, we're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2336.82,"endTime":2339.72,"body":"going to then start to organize"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2336.82,"endTime":2339.72,"body":"ourselves in a more communal"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2339.78,"endTime":2344.22,"body":"type culture, without religion,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2339.78,"endTime":2344.22,"body":"but we're going to try to be a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2344.22,"endTime":2347.94,"body":"little bit more interdependent"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2344.22,"endTime":2347.94,"body":"than we were in the past."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2347.94,"endTime":2351.48,"body":"Because I think hyper"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2347.94,"endTime":2351.48,"body":"individualization kind of is a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2351.48,"endTime":2356.1,"body":"problem in our world, and we"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2351.48,"endTime":2356.1,"body":"need something to help us. I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2356.1,"endTime":2357.98,"body":"mean, towards a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2356.1,"endTime":2357.98,"body":"different direction. To be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2357.98,"endTime":2362.12,"body":"clear, I don't think non"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2357.98,"endTime":2362.12,"body":"religious forms of community"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2362.12,"endTime":2366.74,"body":"building are bad in any way,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2362.12,"endTime":2366.74,"body":"right? And if we're just having"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2366.74,"endTime":2370.58,"body":"a conversation about what ails"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2366.74,"endTime":2370.58,"body":"American society, right, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2370.58,"endTime":2374.06,"body":"happy to place religion. I think"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2370.58,"endTime":2374.06,"body":"it has a big role, but it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2374.06,"endTime":2378.7,"body":"belongs in a category with other"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2374.06,"endTime":2378.7,"body":"forms of community building,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2378.7,"endTime":2381.58,"body":"solidarity building as well,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2378.7,"endTime":2381.58,"body":"right? So there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2381.58,"endTime":2385.84,"body":"nothing wrong with saying a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2381.58,"endTime":2385.84,"body":"response to alienation and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2385.84,"endTime":2389.92,"body":"isolation and enemy in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2385.84,"endTime":2389.92,"body":"modern world is to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2390.04,"endTime":2394.06,"body":"Join your local kickball League,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2390.04,"endTime":2394.06,"body":"right? Whatever the equivalent"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2394.06,"endTime":2396.88,"body":"of the bowling leagues of years"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2394.06,"endTime":2396.88,"body":"gone by. There's nothing wrong"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2396.88,"endTime":2400.14,"body":"with saying we need to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2396.88,"endTime":2400.14,"body":"revitalize the local Elks club."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2400.44,"endTime":2403.74,"body":"There's nothing wrong with"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2400.44,"endTime":2403.74,"body":"treating political engagement as"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2403.74,"endTime":2407.16,"body":"a method, as long as you're"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2403.74,"endTime":2407.16,"body":"actually joining a community and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2407.16,"endTime":2410.16,"body":"not just posting online, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2407.16,"endTime":2410.16,"body":"Like a big, a big part of our"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2410.16,"endTime":2413.46,"body":"problem as a society is that in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2410.16,"endTime":2413.46,"body":"all things, including religious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2413.46,"endTime":2416.46,"body":"things, I'm guilty of this,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2413.46,"endTime":2416.46,"body":"right? People substitute posting"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2416.82,"endTime":2421.1,"body":"for actual, you know, actual"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2416.82,"endTime":2421.1,"body":"engagement, but, but if you're"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2421.1,"endTime":2425.0,"body":"getting your hands dirty in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2421.1,"endTime":2425.0,"body":"world, then you can find"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2425.24,"endTime":2429.32,"body":"benefits from, you know, your"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2425.24,"endTime":2429.32,"body":"your community garden and your"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2429.32,"endTime":2433.34,"body":"book club and your sewing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2429.32,"endTime":2433.34,"body":"circle, as well as from going to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2433.34,"endTime":2437.18,"body":"church on Sunday, right? The the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2433.34,"endTime":2437.18,"body":"case for actually going to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2437.18,"endTime":2442.42,"body":"church is, first, the point I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2437.18,"endTime":2442.42,"body":"made earlier, right? That the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2442.72,"endTime":2447.04,"body":"the things that religion is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2442.72,"endTime":2447.04,"body":"connected to life death. You"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2447.04,"endTime":2451.24,"body":"know, morality, transitions"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2447.04,"endTime":2451.24,"body":"between stages of life are just"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2451.24,"endTime":2454.9,"body":"a more powerful glue, often for"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2451.24,"endTime":2454.9,"body":"community and solidarity, than"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2454.9,"endTime":2458.04,"body":"other things, right? So you get,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2454.9,"endTime":2458.04,"body":"you get a little, you get a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2458.04,"endTime":2462.12,"body":"little more solidarity out of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2458.04,"endTime":2462.12,"body":"religion than other things. But"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2462.12,"endTime":2465.9,"body":"then two, the idea that, in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2462.12,"endTime":2465.9,"body":"fact, the things religion is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2465.9,"endTime":2469.02,"body":"concerned with are important in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2465.9,"endTime":2469.02,"body":"ways that go beyond their"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2469.02,"endTime":2472.98,"body":"sociological benefits. So I'm,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2469.02,"endTime":2472.98,"body":"I'm very intent on saying you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2472.98,"endTime":2476.88,"body":"can't just make a kind of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2472.98,"endTime":2476.88,"body":"utilitarian case for religion."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2476.94,"endTime":2482.06,"body":"There is one, absolutely. But in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2476.94,"endTime":2482.06,"body":"the end, you have to be willing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2482.06,"endTime":2486.8,"body":"to say, and the religious world"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2482.06,"endTime":2486.8,"body":"picture is broadly correct,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2486.8,"endTime":2491.06,"body":"probably broadly Correct. You"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2486.8,"endTime":2491.06,"body":"have good reasons for doing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2491.66,"endTime":2496.7,"body":"this, and potentially eternal"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2491.66,"endTime":2496.7,"body":"consequences if you don't. And"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2496.7,"endTime":2500.44,"body":"it's not just about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2496.7,"endTime":2500.44,"body":"the rate of, the rate of, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2500.44,"endTime":2503.38,"body":"know, social participation in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2500.44,"endTime":2503.38,"body":"American society in 2025"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2504.34,"endTime":2505.84,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2504.34,"endTime":2505.84,"body":"good. I think one of the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2505.84,"endTime":2509.38,"body":"stumbling blocks that you write"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2505.84,"endTime":2509.38,"body":"in your book, you have a few of"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2509.38,"endTime":2512.44,"body":"them, but one, I think, is a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2509.38,"endTime":2512.44,"body":"pretty big one, is the problem"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2512.44,"endTime":2516.4,"body":"of evil in the world. So let's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2512.44,"endTime":2516.4,"body":"dive into theodicy, just very"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2516.4,"endTime":2517.0,"body":"briefly."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2517.12,"endTime":2520.14,"body":"Five. If minutes"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2517.12,"endTime":2520.14,"body":"or less, why do bad things"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2520.14,"endTime":2521.16,"body":"happen to good people?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2521.64,"endTime":2525.0,"body":"Why is there"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2521.64,"endTime":2525.0,"body":"evil in the world? And is that a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2525.0,"endTime":2528.66,"body":"deterrent for us to actually"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2525.0,"endTime":2528.66,"body":"have belief in God?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2529.68,"endTime":2531.72,"body":"I think it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2529.68,"endTime":2531.72,"body":"obviously is a deterrent for"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2531.72,"endTime":2534.78,"body":"people, right? Like there's a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2531.72,"endTime":2534.78,"body":"reason that this argument comes"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2534.78,"endTime":2538.04,"body":"up again and again across"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2534.78,"endTime":2538.04,"body":"history, including in the sacred"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2538.04,"endTime":2541.52,"body":"books of Judaism and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2538.04,"endTime":2541.52,"body":"Christianity themselves, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2541.7,"endTime":2545.66,"body":"The fact that theodicy is woven"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2541.7,"endTime":2545.66,"body":"into the Old Testament and the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2545.66,"endTime":2548.18,"body":"New Testament in different ways,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2545.66,"endTime":2548.18,"body":"tells you that it is a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2548.18,"endTime":2552.98,"body":"substantial issue that religion"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2548.18,"endTime":2552.98,"body":"has to take seriously. My"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2553.52,"endTime":2558.04,"body":"argument in the in the book"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2553.52,"endTime":2558.04,"body":"which I which I stand by, is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2558.04,"endTime":2561.52,"body":"that doubting, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2558.04,"endTime":2561.52,"body":"doubting, having doubts about"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2561.52,"endTime":2567.04,"body":"what God is up to, having, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2561.52,"endTime":2567.04,"body":"know, sort of feeling like you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2567.04,"endTime":2571.72,"body":"know he How can he possibly be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2567.04,"endTime":2571.72,"body":"omniscient and or omnipotent and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2571.72,"endTime":2577.3,"body":"all good if he allows you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2571.72,"endTime":2577.3,"body":"Ex tragedy or ex genocide to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2577.3,"endTime":2583.44,"body":"happen, those are issues that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2577.3,"endTime":2583.44,"body":"should shape your conception of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2583.44,"endTime":2587.52,"body":"God, right and should should"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2583.44,"endTime":2587.52,"body":"shape your theology in certain"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2587.52,"endTime":2591.54,"body":"ways. They're bad reasons for"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2587.52,"endTime":2591.54,"body":"being an atheist, because even"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2591.54,"endTime":2596.46,"body":"if you say, I can't get to the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2591.54,"endTime":2596.46,"body":"omnipotence and Omni benevolence"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2596.46,"endTime":2600.56,"body":"combination, you're still left"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2596.46,"endTime":2600.56,"body":"with all of this basic evidence"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2600.56,"endTime":2604.04,"body":"for design and order in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2600.56,"endTime":2604.04,"body":"universe religious experience,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2604.04,"endTime":2607.4,"body":"like you know, the person having"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2604.04,"endTime":2607.4,"body":"the near death experience,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2607.46,"endTime":2611.48,"body":"right? If that's real, it's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2607.46,"endTime":2611.48,"body":"real, whether or not it all you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2611.48,"endTime":2615.02,"body":"know, the moral logic of God's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2611.48,"endTime":2615.02,"body":"goodness and the problem of evil"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2615.02,"endTime":2619.0,"body":"adds up in your head. So what"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2615.02,"endTime":2619.0,"body":"are, what are, then the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2619.0,"endTime":2623.02,"body":"plausible responses. One"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2619.0,"endTime":2623.02,"body":"plausible response is to say, I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2623.02,"endTime":2626.74,"body":"don't agree with classical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2623.02,"endTime":2626.74,"body":"theism, this sort of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2626.74,"endTime":2630.88,"body":"philosophical concept of who God"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2626.74,"endTime":2630.88,"body":"is. I think you know, something"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2630.88,"endTime":2635.38,"body":"else must be going on. And there"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2630.88,"endTime":2635.38,"body":"are other theological schools"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2635.38,"endTime":2639.36,"body":"that have, you know, different"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2635.38,"endTime":2639.36,"body":"accounts of who God is that make"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2639.54,"endTime":2642.24,"body":"the problem of evil at least"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2639.54,"endTime":2642.24,"body":"seem less like an inherent"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2642.24,"endTime":2646.14,"body":"contradiction or tension, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2642.24,"endTime":2646.14,"body":"So, you know, pantheism, where"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2646.14,"endTime":2649.74,"body":"God and the universe are one,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2646.14,"endTime":2649.74,"body":"offers a somewhat different set,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2649.98,"endTime":2654.06,"body":"set of issues. You know, you can"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2649.98,"endTime":2654.06,"body":"be, you can be a Gnostic. You"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2654.06,"endTime":2656.34,"body":"can be, I mean, there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2654.06,"endTime":2656.34,"body":"a long list which, as a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2656.34,"endTime":2659.12,"body":"Christian I'm not actually, I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2656.34,"endTime":2659.12,"body":"would prefer that people became"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2659.12,"endTime":2662.36,"body":"an Orthodox Christian. But I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2659.12,"endTime":2662.36,"body":"would also say it's better to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2662.36,"endTime":2666.86,"body":"have a heterodox concept of God"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2662.36,"endTime":2666.86,"body":"than to become an atheist,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2667.04,"endTime":2670.46,"body":"because the heterodoxy has a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2667.04,"endTime":2670.46,"body":"better argument for it than than"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2670.46,"endTime":2676.76,"body":"the atheism. But then I also"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2670.46,"endTime":2676.76,"body":"think that you know that most of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2676.76,"endTime":2681.34,"body":"my own tradition seems to signal"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2676.76,"endTime":2681.34,"body":"very strongly that God exists,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2681.34,"endTime":2684.94,"body":"and the problem of evil is one"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2681.34,"endTime":2684.94,"body":"that he expects us to wrestle"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2684.94,"endTime":2690.04,"body":"with, and he doesn't mind it."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2684.94,"endTime":2690.04,"body":"If, you know, we if, if we do"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2690.04,"endTime":2692.92,"body":"the wrestling in ways where"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2690.04,"endTime":2692.92,"body":"sometimes we feel alienated from"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2692.92,"endTime":2696.64,"body":"him, and sometimes we feel angry"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2692.92,"endTime":2696.64,"body":"with him, and you know, all the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2696.64,"endTime":2700.92,"body":"way up to Jesus himself weeping"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2696.64,"endTime":2700.92,"body":"in the Garden of Gethsemane and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2700.92,"endTime":2704.82,"body":"crying out in desolation on the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2700.92,"endTime":2704.82,"body":"cross, right? And I do think, as"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2704.82,"endTime":2707.94,"body":"a Christian, that the New"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2704.82,"endTime":2707.94,"body":"Testament, the Gospels, the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2707.94,"endTime":2712.62,"body":"passion especially, are pretty"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2707.94,"endTime":2712.62,"body":"clearly an answer to the problem"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2712.62,"endTime":2715.74,"body":"of theodicy. They're not an"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2712.62,"endTime":2715.74,"body":"answer in the form of logical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2715.74,"endTime":2718.28,"body":"proof, right? You're not saying"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2715.74,"endTime":2718.28,"body":"here at all. It's all"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2718.58,"endTime":2722.0,"body":"mathematically resolved, but"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2718.58,"endTime":2722.0,"body":"they are an answer where you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2722.0,"endTime":2724.64,"body":"know the claim is that God"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2722.0,"endTime":2724.64,"body":"Himself has come down and shared"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2724.64,"endTime":2729.32,"body":"our suffering in a very profound"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2724.64,"endTime":2729.32,"body":"and extreme kind of way. And I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2729.44,"endTime":2732.38,"body":"completely understand why some"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2729.44,"endTime":2732.38,"body":"people confronting the problem"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2732.38,"endTime":2735.5,"body":"of evil are not fully satisfied"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2732.38,"endTime":2735.5,"body":"with that kind of narrative"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2736.04,"endTime":2739.72,"body":"answer. But it is there, I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2736.04,"endTime":2739.72,"body":"think, and is an important part"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2739.72,"endTime":2742.9,"body":"of what Christianity"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2739.72,"endTime":2742.9,"body":"specifically is offering. But"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2742.9,"endTime":2746.38,"body":"the whole monotheistic"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2742.9,"endTime":2746.38,"body":"tradition, I think, is it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2746.38,"endTime":2749.86,"body":"basically says, Yeah, we can't"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2746.38,"endTime":2749.86,"body":"fully resolve this problem. Come"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2749.86,"endTime":2753.76,"body":"on in and wrestle with it with"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2749.86,"endTime":2753.76,"body":"us. Because whether or not it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2753.76,"endTime":2756.04,"body":"fully makes sense, there still"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2753.76,"endTime":2756.04,"body":"probably is a god."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2757.06,"endTime":2759.9,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2757.06,"endTime":2759.9,"body":"good. As you mentioned, Jesus"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2759.96,"endTime":2766.14,"body":"and God, becoming flesh, living"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2759.96,"endTime":2766.14,"body":"among us, suffered with us and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2766.14,"endTime":2771.6,"body":"entered into our suffering, took"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2766.14,"endTime":2771.6,"body":"on all of our suffering himself."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2771.78,"endTime":2778.08,"body":"What really attracts you to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2771.78,"endTime":2778.08,"body":"Jesus? Why Jesus for you? Why"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2778.14,"endTime":2782.84,"body":"Christianity and you could go"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2778.14,"endTime":2782.84,"body":"into Catholicism. And why Roman"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2782.84,"endTime":2787.28,"body":"Catholic for you, but why Jesus?"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":2782.84,"endTime":2787.28,"body":"Jesus specifically? Well,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2787.28,"endTime":2788.96,"body":"I mean, what I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2787.28,"endTime":2788.96,"body":"just said is part of it, and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2788.96,"endTime":2792.44,"body":"maybe a really important part of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2788.96,"endTime":2792.44,"body":"it, because, and this connects"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2792.44,"endTime":2796.22,"body":"to my Catholicism in the sense"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2792.44,"endTime":2796.22,"body":"that I think one of the one of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2796.22,"endTime":2800.74,"body":"the strongest things that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2796.22,"endTime":2800.74,"body":"Catholicism does as a liturgical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2800.8,"endTime":2806.08,"body":"religion is to place, is to sort"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2800.8,"endTime":2806.08,"body":"of put the passion front and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2806.08,"endTime":2809.92,"body":"center in this way that I didn't"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2806.08,"endTime":2809.92,"body":"experience in the same way when"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2809.92,"endTime":2813.82,"body":"I was a Protestant, right? That"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2809.92,"endTime":2813.82,"body":"like you would, you would the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2813.82,"endTime":2817.42,"body":"protestantisms that I was part"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2813.82,"endTime":2817.42,"body":"of were very focused on here."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2817.5,"endTime":2821.28,"body":"Faster and less focused on Good"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2817.5,"endTime":2821.28,"body":"Friday and the Catholic"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2821.28,"endTime":2824.88,"body":"tradition. Just, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2821.28,"endTime":2824.88,"body":"whole build up through Lent Palm"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2824.88,"endTime":2828.06,"body":"Sunday, through passion week and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2824.88,"endTime":2828.06,"body":"so on. Think just does a really"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2828.06,"endTime":2833.34,"body":"good job of making the divine"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2828.06,"endTime":2833.34,"body":"response to human evil and human"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2833.34,"endTime":2838.46,"body":"suffering really powerful and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2833.34,"endTime":2838.46,"body":"potent before you reach the joy,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2838.52,"endTime":2843.98,"body":"the joy of the resurrection, the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2838.52,"endTime":2843.98,"body":"story of Jesus is a answer to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2843.98,"endTime":2849.08,"body":"certain questions that hang over"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2843.98,"endTime":2849.08,"body":"monotheism as a tradition, and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2849.08,"endTime":2852.62,"body":"that is important to me. But"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2849.08,"endTime":2852.62,"body":"then beyond that, I think that,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2852.62,"endTime":2855.02,"body":"you know, I've been saying"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2852.62,"endTime":2855.02,"body":"throughout this conversation,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2855.02,"endTime":2858.1,"body":"right, that I think there's good"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2855.02,"endTime":2858.1,"body":"reasons to think that God is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2858.1,"endTime":2861.04,"body":"present in multiple religious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2858.1,"endTime":2861.04,"body":"traditions, that there are these"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2861.04,"endTime":2863.86,"body":"convergences and overlaps where"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2861.04,"endTime":2863.86,"body":"people seem to be talking about"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2863.86,"endTime":2866.98,"body":"the same reality, even if"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2863.86,"endTime":2866.98,"body":"they're using different language"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2867.28,"endTime":2870.28,"body":"at the same time. The reason I'm"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2867.28,"endTime":2870.28,"body":"a Christian, and not just a kind"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2870.28,"endTime":2874.36,"body":"of like perennialist or someone"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2870.28,"endTime":2874.36,"body":"who says they're all basically"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2874.36,"endTime":2877.54,"body":"equal, is that I think that the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2874.36,"endTime":2877.54,"body":"story in the Gospel stands out"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2877.6,"endTime":2881.46,"body":"in a really radical and stark"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2877.6,"endTime":2881.46,"body":"and unusual way among the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2881.46,"endTime":2886.02,"body":"different stories of religious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2881.46,"endTime":2886.02,"body":"foundings, prophets and holy"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2886.02,"endTime":2890.52,"body":"people, right? That, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2886.02,"endTime":2890.52,"body":"there is a basic historical"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2890.52,"endTime":2894.54,"body":"credibility to the Gospels, that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2890.52,"endTime":2894.54,"body":"is, I think, underestimated"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2894.96,"endTime":2898.22,"body":"currently, by whatever the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2894.96,"endTime":2898.22,"body":"secular historical consensus is,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2898.22,"endTime":2902.12,"body":"I think that, you know, and I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2898.22,"endTime":2902.12,"body":"don't think that consensus is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2902.12,"endTime":2905.18,"body":"destined to long survive, to the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2902.12,"endTime":2905.18,"body":"extent that it still survives."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2905.18,"endTime":2908.42,"body":"But I think the Gospels present"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2905.18,"endTime":2908.42,"body":"themselves as, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2908.42,"endTime":2912.74,"body":"overlapping credible eyewitness"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2908.42,"endTime":2912.74,"body":"testimony, personal memoir that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2912.74,"endTime":2916.22,"body":"doesn't seem constructed long"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2912.74,"endTime":2916.22,"body":"after the fact is not sort of a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2916.46,"endTime":2919.96,"body":"pious fake, is a real account of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2916.46,"endTime":2919.96,"body":"something that happened to real"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2919.96,"endTime":2923.26,"body":"people in the full light of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2919.96,"endTime":2923.26,"body":"recorded history that they did"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2923.26,"endTime":2926.92,"body":"not expect at all, right, that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2923.26,"endTime":2926.92,"body":"baffled them, and that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2926.92,"endTime":2930.7,"body":"bafflement is itself apparent in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2926.92,"endTime":2930.7,"body":"the Gospels. It's not all"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2930.76,"endTime":2933.52,"body":"smoothed away into perfect"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2930.76,"endTime":2933.52,"body":"theological formulations."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2933.52,"endTime":2936.58,"body":"There's a lot of riddles and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2933.52,"endTime":2936.58,"body":"uncertainty, and it's like"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2936.58,"endTime":2940.86,"body":"you're reading people working"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2936.58,"endTime":2940.86,"body":"through an experience, right?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2941.22,"endTime":2945.42,"body":"And that experience was extreme."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2941.22,"endTime":2945.42,"body":"It was not just, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2945.42,"endTime":2948.96,"body":"healing miracle or a sort of one"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2945.42,"endTime":2948.96,"body":"off sign or signifier of which"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2948.96,"endTime":2953.46,"body":"there are plenty in history. It"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2948.96,"endTime":2953.46,"body":"was a whole drama, a whole story"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2953.58,"endTime":2959.06,"body":"that, you know, that that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2953.58,"endTime":2959.06,"body":"essentially reshaped the moral"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2959.06,"endTime":2962.66,"body":"landscape of the ancient world"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2959.06,"endTime":2962.66,"body":"in profound ways. You know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2962.66,"endTime":2965.84,"body":"recommend a book like Tom"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2962.66,"endTime":2965.84,"body":"Holland's book, Dominion about"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2965.84,"endTime":2968.66,"body":"the Christian revolution, that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2965.84,"endTime":2968.66,"body":"focuses on that component,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2968.96,"endTime":2973.34,"body":"right? Just how completely the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2968.96,"endTime":2973.34,"body":"crucifixion and resurrection"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2973.34,"endTime":2976.4,"body":"sort of inverted a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2973.34,"endTime":2976.4,"body":"moral categories that people had"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2976.4,"endTime":2979.24,"body":"inherited, but, and, then, but"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2976.4,"endTime":2979.24,"body":"then it's just sort of, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2979.24,"endTime":2984.58,"body":"know, it's this wild and crazy"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2979.24,"endTime":2984.58,"body":"ending, right where Jesus comes"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2984.58,"endTime":2988.12,"body":"back from the dead, and in ways"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2984.58,"endTime":2988.12,"body":"that, you know, again, if you,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2988.3,"endTime":2990.76,"body":"if you don't exclude the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2988.3,"endTime":2990.76,"body":"miraculous presump"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2990.76,"endTime":2993.76,"body":"presumptively, are pretty"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2990.76,"endTime":2993.76,"body":"compelling, pretty historically"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2993.76,"endTime":2997.66,"body":"compelling. And I don't think"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2993.76,"endTime":2997.66,"body":"there's anything else quite like"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2997.66,"endTime":3002.06,"body":"it, again. Not that other"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":2997.66,"endTime":3002.06,"body":"religious foundings, other"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3002.06,"endTime":3006.38,"body":"religious experiences, aren't"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3002.06,"endTime":3006.38,"body":"themselves or, you know, I don't"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3006.38,"endTime":3009.44,"body":"think they're all fake. I think"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3006.38,"endTime":3009.44,"body":"God is there in a lot of places,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3009.74,"endTime":3013.7,"body":"but I think God seems to be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3009.74,"endTime":3013.7,"body":"there in a really singular way,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3014.36,"endTime":3017.06,"body":"in the New Testament, and in a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3014.36,"endTime":3017.06,"body":"way that, for me, makes it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3017.06,"endTime":3020.92,"body":"reasonable to say, Okay, think"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3017.06,"endTime":3020.92,"body":"there's a lot of divine stuff"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3020.92,"endTime":3023.44,"body":"out there, but this is the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3020.92,"endTime":3023.44,"body":"controlling revelation. This is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3023.44,"endTime":3026.86,"body":"the place where God wants you to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3023.44,"endTime":3026.86,"body":"start. God wants you to read"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3026.98,"endTime":3031.96,"body":"other religious material through"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3026.98,"endTime":3031.96,"body":"this story and this and this"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3031.96,"endTime":3032.38,"body":"person."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3032.68,"endTime":3035.38,"body":"Ross, I think"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3032.68,"endTime":3035.38,"body":"people need to go pick up your"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3035.38,"endTime":3037.86,"body":"book. Believe why everyone"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3035.38,"endTime":3037.86,"body":"should be religious. It's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3037.86,"endTime":3040.8,"body":"fantastic read. You're a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3037.86,"endTime":3040.8,"body":"fantastic writer, and you're"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3040.8,"endTime":3044.16,"body":"you're writing in The New York"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3040.8,"endTime":3044.16,"body":"Times elsewhere has been"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3044.16,"endTime":3048.78,"body":"fantastic as well, so they"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3044.16,"endTime":3048.78,"body":"should check that out too. What"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3048.78,"endTime":3052.14,"body":"hope would you have for your"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3048.78,"endTime":3052.14,"body":"readers if they they pick this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3052.14,"endTime":3053.64,"body":"up and pick up belief"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3054.48,"endTime":3058.88,"body":"it depends on the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3054.48,"endTime":3058.88,"body":"reader, for the sort of curious,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3058.88,"endTime":3064.58,"body":"secular reader who's interested"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3058.88,"endTime":3064.58,"body":"in religion but feels like it"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3064.58,"endTime":3068.96,"body":"requires too much of a sacrifice"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3064.58,"endTime":3068.96,"body":"of your reason and your"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3069.02,"endTime":3072.08,"body":"confidence in science and your"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3069.02,"endTime":3072.08,"body":"place as a modern person. I'm"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3072.08,"endTime":3076.76,"body":"trying to help that reader get"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3072.08,"endTime":3076.76,"body":"over, get over that sense and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3076.76,"endTime":3080.92,"body":"realize that no, actually it is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3076.76,"endTime":3080.92,"body":"more reasonable than not to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3080.92,"endTime":3085.3,"body":"become religious. And then for"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3080.92,"endTime":3085.3,"body":"the religious Reader, I'm either"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3085.3,"endTime":3089.32,"body":"trying to instill a version of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3085.3,"endTime":3089.32,"body":"that same confidence, right, a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3089.32,"endTime":3092.02,"body":"sense that, like the religious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3089.32,"endTime":3092.02,"body":"believer, doesn't have to be"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3092.02,"endTime":3095.08,"body":"back on their heels and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3092.02,"endTime":3095.08,"body":"defensive all the time. Of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3095.08,"endTime":3097.3,"body":"course, there are issues in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3095.08,"endTime":3097.3,"body":"religion and scandals and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3097.3,"endTime":3100.32,"body":"unresolved controversies, all"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3097.3,"endTime":3100.32,"body":"that's real, but the basic"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3100.32,"endTime":3103.5,"body":"attitude towards the world has"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3100.32,"endTime":3103.5,"body":"more to recommend it than the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3103.5,"endTime":3106.92,"body":"alternative. But then also for"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3103.5,"endTime":3106.92,"body":"the religious reader, who is you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3106.92,"endTime":3111.42,"body":"know people, people go through"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3106.92,"endTime":3111.42,"body":"difficult times in their faith"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3111.48,"endTime":3114.72,"body":"life, and people you know, in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3111.48,"endTime":3114.72,"body":"evangelical terms, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3114.72,"endTime":3118.16,"body":"people end up deconstructing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3114.72,"endTime":3118.16,"body":"right at some point. Or in their"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3118.16,"endTime":3120.98,"body":"life in some way, something"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3118.16,"endTime":3120.98,"body":"they've inherited or believed"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3120.98,"endTime":3123.92,"body":"they suddenly struggle with. And"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3120.98,"endTime":3123.92,"body":"I'm kind of trying to put a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3123.92,"endTime":3126.62,"body":"floor under that, right? I'm"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3123.92,"endTime":3126.62,"body":"saying, yes, you may change your"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3126.62,"endTime":3130.7,"body":"mind about a particular idea or"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3126.62,"endTime":3130.7,"body":"particular doctrine, but at"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3130.7,"endTime":3133.22,"body":"bottom, you should hit a level"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3130.7,"endTime":3133.22,"body":"where you say, okay, but I still"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3133.22,"endTime":3136.22,"body":"should be religious. I'm still"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3133.22,"endTime":3136.22,"body":"doing the right thing. Maybe I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3136.22,"endTime":3138.76,"body":"need to do it in a different"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3136.22,"endTime":3138.76,"body":"place or with a different set of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3138.76,"endTime":3143.02,"body":"ideas, but the basic thing is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3138.76,"endTime":3143.02,"body":"still worth doing, even if"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3143.02,"endTime":3146.14,"body":"you've had a period of struggle"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3143.02,"endTime":3146.14,"body":"and transformation. That's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3146.14,"endTime":3148.66,"body":"so good. A"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3146.14,"endTime":3148.66,"body":"couple real quick questions at"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3148.66,"endTime":3151.48,"body":"the end. One, if you go back to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3148.66,"endTime":3151.48,"body":"your 21 year old self, what"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3151.48,"endTime":3152.26,"body":"advice would you give?"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3153.04,"endTime":3155.08,"body":"I mean, that's a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3153.04,"endTime":3155.08,"body":"tricky question, right? It get"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3155.08,"endTime":3157.8,"body":"it touches on questions of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3155.08,"endTime":3157.8,"body":"divine providence. I mean, the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3157.8,"endTime":3160.92,"body":"worst, the worst thing that has"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3157.8,"endTime":3160.92,"body":"happened to me as an adult has"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3160.92,"endTime":3165.54,"body":"been that I, we my family, and I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3160.92,"endTime":3165.54,"body":"moved to a farmhouse in rural"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3165.54,"endTime":3169.14,"body":"Connecticut, fulfilling a sort"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3165.54,"endTime":3169.14,"body":"of fantasy of rural, rural life,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3169.32,"endTime":3172.68,"body":"and immediately I got Lyme"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3169.32,"endTime":3172.68,"body":"disease and was desperately sick"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3172.68,"endTime":3177.54,"body":"with it for many years, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3172.68,"endTime":3177.54,"body":"much better now. But so the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3177.54,"endTime":3180.56,"body":"easiest, the simplest thing is"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3177.54,"endTime":3180.56,"body":"to say, oh, you know, go back"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3180.56,"endTime":3185.06,"body":"and tell your 21 year old self,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3180.56,"endTime":3185.06,"body":"don't walk in the fields of the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3185.06,"endTime":3189.02,"body":"house that you just bought"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3185.06,"endTime":3189.02,"body":"without checking for ticks. But,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3189.08,"endTime":3191.84,"body":"but this is like a question of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3189.08,"endTime":3191.84,"body":"suffering thing, right? It's"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3191.84,"endTime":3195.92,"body":"like, okay, but at this point,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3191.84,"endTime":3195.92,"body":"at 45 you know, would I want to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3195.92,"endTime":3199.66,"body":"lose the person that I've become"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3195.92,"endTime":3199.66,"body":"over the last 10 years, like"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3199.66,"endTime":3203.56,"body":"we've had, you know, two"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3199.66,"endTime":3203.56,"body":"children. My wife was pregnant"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3203.56,"endTime":3206.56,"body":"when I got sick, so two and a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3203.56,"endTime":3206.56,"body":"half children, let's say, since"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3206.56,"endTime":3210.7,"body":"I got sick, like I don't know. I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3206.56,"endTime":3210.7,"body":"don't I think there are ways in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3210.7,"endTime":3214.96,"body":"which you, you almost you don't"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3210.7,"endTime":3214.96,"body":"want to say anything to the 21"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3215.14,"endTime":3218.82,"body":"year old self. If you have a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3215.14,"endTime":3218.82,"body":"certain confidence that you know"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3218.88,"endTime":3222.9,"body":"that Providence has a hand in in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3218.88,"endTime":3222.9,"body":"your life, even the even the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3222.9,"endTime":3224.16,"body":"toughest parts. That's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3224.16,"endTime":3226.98,"body":"really good and"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3224.16,"endTime":3226.98,"body":"helpful for us as we look back"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3226.98,"endTime":3229.98,"body":"on our life and figure out who"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3226.98,"endTime":3229.98,"body":"we are and where we're going."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3230.28,"endTime":3232.74,"body":"And that's helpful anything"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3230.28,"endTime":3232.74,"body":"you've been reading or watching"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3232.74,"endTime":3233.82,"body":"lately, you could recommend"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3234.12,"endTime":3237.0,"body":"the TV show that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3234.12,"endTime":3237.0,"body":"I've been watching is the Apple"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3237.0,"endTime":3241.04,"body":"TV show severance, which just"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3237.0,"endTime":3241.04,"body":"came back for its second season."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3241.4,"endTime":3247.58,"body":"And it's a show about people who"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3241.4,"endTime":3247.58,"body":"basically have a procedure where"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3247.58,"endTime":3251.48,"body":"they go to work during the day"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3247.58,"endTime":3251.48,"body":"and don't remember the self that"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3251.48,"endTime":3254.6,"body":"works, that's at work. So they"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3251.48,"endTime":3254.6,"body":"have a literal home self and"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3254.6,"endTime":3257.54,"body":"work self. And these have"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3254.6,"endTime":3257.54,"body":"different experiences. And of"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3257.54,"endTime":3260.62,"body":"course, there's, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3257.54,"endTime":3260.62,"body":"sinister Corporation, and it's,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3260.62,"endTime":3264.16,"body":"it's sort of probably a little"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3260.62,"endTime":3264.16,"body":"bit like lost in that way, like"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3264.16,"endTime":3267.52,"body":"various signifiers and so on. So"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3264.16,"endTime":3267.52,"body":"far, it's a good show. It'll"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3267.52,"endTime":3269.98,"body":"probably disappoint me in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3267.52,"endTime":3269.98,"body":"end, but it does touch on, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3270.34,"endTime":3273.04,"body":"know, it connects to some of the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3270.34,"endTime":3273.04,"body":"things we've been talking about,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3273.16,"endTime":3277.86,"body":"you know, the soul, the self,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3273.16,"endTime":3277.86,"body":"the possibility of a plan, all"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3277.86,"endTime":3280.44,"body":"of these things, religious"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3277.86,"endTime":3280.44,"body":"issues are never completely"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3280.44,"endTime":3284.7,"body":"absent, even from pop culture."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3280.44,"endTime":3284.7,"body":"Yeah, the last episode really"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3284.76,"endTime":3288.12,"body":"don't, don't say, No, I have not"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3284.76,"endTime":3288.12,"body":"gotten out. I'm not okay. I'm"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3288.12,"endTime":3290.58,"body":"two episodes into season two. So"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3288.12,"endTime":3290.58,"body":"there's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3290.58,"endTime":3292.74,"body":"an interesting"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3290.58,"endTime":3292.74,"body":"religious conversation in that."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3292.74,"endTime":3294.12,"body":"That's all I want to say, is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3292.74,"endTime":3294.12,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3294.24,"endTime":3297.18,"body":"So there were, I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3294.24,"endTime":3297.18,"body":"did notice a lot of churches in"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3297.18,"endTime":3300.5,"body":"season one, sort of in the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3297.18,"endTime":3300.5,"body":"background, so we'll see what I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3300.5,"endTime":3301.28,"body":"think. Don't spoil"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3301.28,"endTime":3302.9,"body":"it. I won't"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3301.28,"endTime":3302.9,"body":"spoil it, but I'm just saying"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3302.9,"endTime":3305.6,"body":"it's interesting that there is"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3302.9,"endTime":3305.6,"body":"religious conversation going on"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3305.6,"endTime":3308.96,"body":"and figuring out, right, what's"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3305.6,"endTime":3308.96,"body":"going on here. Good. Ross, this"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3308.96,"endTime":3311.9,"body":"is fantastic. Is there any place"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3308.96,"endTime":3311.9,"body":"you would like to point people"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3311.9,"endTime":3316.64,"body":"to for to connect with you, or"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3311.9,"endTime":3316.64,"body":"anywhere specifically you would"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3316.64,"endTime":3319.06,"body":"like people to go out and get"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3316.64,"endTime":3319.06,"body":"your book, no"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3319.06,"endTime":3323.14,"body":"wherever, you"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3319.06,"endTime":3323.14,"body":"know. I mean, both support your"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3323.14,"endTime":3327.46,"body":"local bookstore, but also it has"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3323.14,"endTime":3327.46,"body":"a very low price on Amazon. So"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3327.46,"endTime":3330.22,"body":"if the price point is an issue,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3327.46,"endTime":3330.22,"body":"that's that's the place to buy"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3330.22,"endTime":3333.34,"body":"it. I write for the New York"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3330.22,"endTime":3333.34,"body":"Times, that's right, and do"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3333.34,"endTime":3336.04,"body":"podcasting for them. That's the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3333.34,"endTime":3336.04,"body":"primary place they can find me."},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3336.04,"endTime":3342.36,"body":"I'm on Twitter, X, whatever"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3336.04,"endTime":3342.36,"body":"intermittently it's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3342.42,"endTime":3345.36,"body":"it's a bad habit. Oh, and I"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3342.42,"endTime":3345.36,"body":"know, and I should say that for"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3345.36,"endTime":3349.68,"body":"readers who who like that sort"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3345.36,"endTime":3349.68,"body":"of thing, I am also serializing"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3349.68,"endTime":3353.64,"body":"a fantasy novel on sub stack"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3349.68,"endTime":3353.64,"body":"called the Falcons children. So"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3353.94,"endTime":3356.7,"body":"if you want to read a different"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3353.94,"endTime":3356.7,"body":"kind of book about the"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3356.7,"endTime":3359.96,"body":"supernatural, I have that one to"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3356.7,"endTime":3359.96,"body":"offer as well."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3360.26,"endTime":3363.08,"body":"Awesome. That"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3360.26,"endTime":3363.08,"body":"sounds great. Fantastic. I'll"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3363.08,"endTime":3366.5,"body":"check that out since we get off"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3363.08,"endTime":3366.5,"body":"now. All right, the Falcons,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3366.5,"endTime":3369.56,"body":"children, falcons, children on"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3366.5,"endTime":3369.56,"body":"sub stack, awesome. Well, Ross,"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3369.56,"endTime":3372.68,"body":"thank you for this conversation."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3369.56,"endTime":3372.68,"body":"I really loved going deep into"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3372.68,"endTime":3377.06,"body":"some of these, the reasons why"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3372.68,"endTime":3377.06,"body":"people don't believe and the"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3377.06,"endTime":3382.36,"body":"things that we have started to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3377.06,"endTime":3382.36,"body":"observe in the cosmos of things"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3382.36,"endTime":3385.72,"body":"that says, hey, maybe there is a"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3382.36,"endTime":3385.72,"body":"Creator. Maybe there is a God"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3385.96,"endTime":3390.7,"body":"that actually organizing in"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3385.96,"endTime":3390.7,"body":"religion with God at the center"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3390.76,"endTime":3396.28,"body":"in communal life is a good way"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3390.76,"endTime":3396.28,"body":"to live like we should actually"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3396.28,"endTime":3400.38,"body":"move towards that place. So"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3396.28,"endTime":3400.38,"body":"thank you for this conversation."},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3400.38,"endTime":3404.52,"body":"It was a pleasure to talk to"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3400.38,"endTime":3404.52,"body":"you. I truly enjoyed it. I"},{"speaker":"Joshua Johnson","startTime":3404.52,"endTime":3405.3,"body":"really appreciate"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3405.3,"endTime":3406.98,"body":"it as well. Thanks"},{"speaker":"Ross Douthat","startTime":3405.3,"endTime":3406.98,"body":"for the opportunity. You."}]}