As followers of Jesus. In this world, if you're doing nothing, you're being pulled, you're drifting. We think to do nothing is neutral, but actually to sit still is to be moving in the direction of culture requires us to swim against the current. And of course, God helps us with that. He doesn't leave us to that on our own. You Joshua,
Joshua Johnson:hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ looked like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson, in this episode, I talk with will Parker Anderson, writer, editor and founder of the writer's circle, about the tension we all feel between productivity and presence, business and ministry, hustle and holiness. Will brings clarity and honesty to the internal battle many creatives face. How do we create from a place of joy, not just ambition? How do we resist comparison, reclaim play and keep our identity grounded, not in our platform, but in the God who delights in us? We dig into the realities of Christian publishing, the spiritual disciplines that sustain us and the hidden dangers of remote work and quiet isolation, whether you're a writer, an entrepreneur or someone simply trying to live faithfully in a noisy world, this conversation is full of wisdom vulnerability and practical encouragement for staying rooted in what matters most. So join us. Here is my conversation with will Parker Anderson will welcome to shifting culture. Excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me. Yeah, Joshua, great to be here. I want to know, as we start out, just as some sort of an introduction to you, what drives you, why? Why do you exist? What is your motivation and your purpose? Wow, we're
Will Parker Anderson:just we're diving into the deep end. They are. We are, oh my goodness. Well, I just had a conversation with a friend about the idea of calling, and he kind of blew my mind, because he had all these categories, but to simplify, I'd say, Yeah, I exist to bring my Creator joy, and I do that in a number of ways. As Americans in modern life, we often focus on our vocation, which is really important, but whatever we do to make money, our identity tends to be really tied up in that. And as a book editor, it's tempting sometimes, because I've discovered people think that's cool, and I can hide behind that fact, but who I am, primarily, you know, is a child of God, and I'm here to bring Him joy in all that I do. So as a father of three kids, as a husband, as someone who has a sense of humor and has friends and spends time with them, also the work that I do, the things that I create as a writer. So across the board, that is always my goal as I'm waking up in the morning is, how can I bring God joy, and how can I partner with him, and not to slip into this mundane mindset where I'm just checking things off a list, but really inviting him in, reminding myself that he is dwelling within me and he's walking beside me, and that really can transform everything we do, especially those tasks we have to do day after day after day that start to feel a little bit rote, boring, exhausting. So that would be my short answer.
Joshua Johnson:Your calling of who you are as someone that wants to bring the Creator joy. Have you seen in your life a pull to something other than that? So when you're working as a book editor or as a father or friend, is something where are you getting pulled into different directions of maybe making it more about you and what you do, or striving to get some sort of attention for yourself. Where have you found places where that goes off the rails a little
Will Parker Anderson:bit? Well, I think you nailed it already, Joshua, because you were alluding to the idea of performance and the idea that, first of all, God's gonna like me more. The more that I do for him, the more successful I am. The bigger books I work on, the bigger my platform grows. We can couch self promotion in Kingdom language and start talking about our accomplishments, whether consciously or subconsciously in a way that we're actually defining how God looks at us, how he feels about us by the things that we do. And that's really dangerous. So personally, I can just say, at the end of a day, I can evaluate my worth in his sight and. By how pure my thoughts were, or how patient I was or wasn't with my kids, or how much I served my wife versus, you know, just thinking about my own needs. And then, professionally, man, I'm in an industry that really promotes platform, and it's a prerequisite, right? If you want to publish a book, you've got to have a following. You probably are on social media, you're doing things like this, even when you're on a podcast. And I see that drive in the industry of writers that are just really working hard to be noticed and to be heard, and many times successfully. And so that's probably the biggest one, I mean, to get vulnerable either last night or early this morning. I don't remember, but I was thinking about some of my own personal goals, with my professional work, with the business that I run, and I was a little bit down, discouraged and drawn to the few negative things that maybe aren't growing or trending, as I hope they were, and just ignoring this wealth of other blessings and gifts in my life. And so you asked where you pulled I think that's the perfect word. I think I like the name of your show, shifting culture. I often think of our culture as a current in the ocean, because when you go into the ocean, you don't realize you're moving slowly drifting away. And it's not until you look back at your beach towel or your whatever you got set up on the sand that you realize, oh my goodness, I've drifted 100 yards, and I didn't even recognize it. And so as followers of Jesus, in this world, if you're doing nothing, you're being pulled, you're drifting, we think to do nothing is neutral, but actually to sit still is to be moving in the direction of culture requires us to swim against the current. And of course, God helps us with that. He doesn't leave us to that on our own. But anyways, yeah, I'd say performance is a huge one a comparison. Those are all things that are continually pulling and I would add one more isolation, I think, the loneliness of modern remote work, which is what I do, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners can relate with this is you can just sit with a laptop and get everything done that you need to and forget that it's a gift to sit with people. You know, my wife and I were just processing this. When it starts to feel like an inconvenience to see people or to chat with your neighbors, that's a sign, I think, that you're starting to drift in the current. And Justin Whitmore early, who's one of my favorite writers, he wrote a book called made for people, and he has this great line where he says the goal of modern American life is to become busier, wealthier people who used to have friends. And that line has stuck with me. I mean, as you can see, I just quoted it. It's like, man, we get so caught up in chasing more stuff, and we feel more accomplished and maybe even more acceptable, in God's sight, when we're busy, when we're running around like, surely the frenetic activity must mean that we're doing things right, but it's just not the case. So I resonated
Joshua Johnson:with almost everything that you said. It is something that I struggle with as well, especially now working remotely, without a lot of people around constantly and trying to say, hey, there's so many good things that are happening, but focusing on the things that aren't growing, that aren't working. One of the things that I want to know is so as a as a book editor, somebody in in Christian publishing, as you're looking at like what you're working on, or even as a wider whole, what we're starting to publish. One of the things you talked about was only platform we need followers. The The goal is to, is to sell something and make money. But the goal also, I think, in Christian publishing, should be to to shape what we're we're thinking how we're moving, how we're embodying Jesus. What does it look like to be faithful within the culture? And so sometimes it feels like as we're moving towards wanting to sell and make a lot of money, maybe we're not asking the right questions, or maybe we're not moving into a direction where, hey, the culture actually needs something right now, they may not actually accept it, so I may not make money, but is it worth publishing? So how do you navigate those aspects of knowing what is worth and saying we need to make money, but we also need to say something worthwhile?
Will Parker Anderson:Yeah, wow. Joshua, what a loaded question, and a great one as well. Yeah, that's a tension that we live in all the time. Time, I would liken it to sort of the polarized errors of prosperity theology and poverty theology. So prosperity theology says, Hey, God just wants you to get rich. So you know, if you give he's gonna make you a millionaire. Of course, I'm this is very reductionistic. Poverty theology, on the other hand, says, hey, you know what God wants you to financially suffer, because that is what holiness looks like, and it's wrong to have nice things. There are grains of truth in both of those views, but they're both not the whole truth. In fact, they're twisted and in the same way people sometimes come to publishing with these extreme views, they'll either say, hey, publishing is a business, and they got to keep the lights on, and so we can't be sentimental about this, like you have to take on authors that have a realistic chance of returning your investment. Because for those that don't know, publishers take absorb all the risk for an author, they pay the author. They don't get any of that money recouped unless the book does well. And spoiler alert, most books do not do well. I don't know the exact number. It's something like 80% of books do not earn back their advance. So I think to be fair, if people can put themselves in the shoes of a publisher, like, imagine running a business where 80% of your clients, you're just shelling out money to them with no return. So to demonize publishers and to and to play the God card, and like the in appeal to the kingdom mindset is partially right on the other side, yeah, I think people say so. If the one side is publishing is a business, we should just think monetarily. The other areas to say, like, no, publishing is just a ministry. And I'm using that language carefully, you know, just a ministry, because I do believe publishing is a ministry, but that's not all it is. And so some would say, hey, let's not worry about platform at all, and let's just focus on the content, and let's find people of character and conviction, and let's just publish them. Well, the problem with that is there's a lot of problems with that. One is a lot of people with big platforms have conviction and character, so it's a false dichotomy. And so what I would say is we try to the best of our ability, and we're imperfect at this, but we are looking for both authors that have large platforms, because as we take risks as a publisher, we want to know that there's at least a chance that we could make our money back. But then also, we take risks quite often on authors who do not have a huge platform, but what we see is a message and character and sort of a timeliness to whatever they're writing about that we're like, Yes, this is something that the people of God will benefit from. And I say people of God because I'm in Christian publishing, right? And so it really is a both. And you know, we have a few authors that their books have maybe hit the New York Times bestseller list or, you know, another award, have won other awards, and those books truly float us. I mean, they they pay the bills, and we're very grateful for them. And then we have other authors who write beautiful, thoughtful, challenging books that really edify and enrich and they don't sell as much. And so we don't prioritize one over the other. We just recognize God has called us to both. And I think one of the hardest things about being in Christian publishing is that tension is never fully alleviated between what is business and what is ministry. They are so enmeshed by necessity that we just have to sit in that tension. Because the minute you try to alleviate it and just become a business, or on the flip side, just become a ministry we're not operating, I would say, in the most helpful way. And so it's not an easy answer, but hopefully that sheds a little light on how we evaluate these things, and we actually try to break it down into Okay, how many authors with small platforms can we take risks on? And that helps us prioritize and choose them carefully. And then, on the flip side, how many big fish, so to speak, can we pursue this year realistically and we really are intentional about trying to welcome in both authors with platforms and those who are still trying to build them.
Joshua Johnson:I think I have a there's a lot of listeners that they're, they have a business and but they want to see some sort of a kingdom impact. They want to actually see some ministry in it. So they view it both as business and ministry, and they're riding that tension of both. And I think this is a lot of us that are, are trying to make a living in. Have something where we could take care of our families, yeah. How do we ride that tension? Like, what does it look like, faithfully and like daily like, what are we looking for in our daily walk to ride the tension between business and
Will Parker Anderson:ministry? Yeah, you know, businesses are organic living organisms, and so they're always changing, and next month, you could be in a totally different season with different revenue, different temptations, different challenges. So I think it's similar to the entirety of the Christian life that we're always having to evaluate. We're always having to take what we're doing and submit it to God and ask him, Hey, show me my heart. Show me things that I can't see. I think the regular disciplines of the Christian life are the answer to this question. So one would be, you know, personal reflection and prayer before God. Another would be community, having people around you that are willing to speak candidly, sometimes very directly, in saying, Hey, I think you're drifting here, or that doesn't sound like you, or that doesn't sound like what I know of your heart, or God's heart, and having that board of directors in our lives that can, you know, just be super. Keep it 100 with us. The other thing is auditing what voices are in your life and who you are welcoming in. And I'm thinking now of podcasts, business gurus, coaches, even preachers like who is nourishing your soul and forming your worldview. I just worked with a writer who built a seven figure business and was working like 10 hours a week. Had a team. Everything was automated, and then God said to her, shut it down. I'm not in this so she did immediately. She amazing. I mean, she was obedient, caught her off guard, pulled the rug out from under her. It meant an immediate loss of around 500,000 in revenue a year. It meant laying off like 10 people. It was very painful, but I love that story, because she's happier, now, healthier, physically, emotionally, spiritually, she is hasn't abandoned business, but she's slowly rebuilding. But her story is that she paid 1000s of dollars to be in these special masterminds, only for millionaires, and to go to these Christian influencer events and hire different coaches, and what she realized is that she had slowly absorbed some really toxic ideas, these lies that were again couched in ministry Christianese, but in reality, were more tied to some new age thinking and some other ideologies that she eventually recognized to be really harmful for her own soul. And so that's an extreme example. And like the rich young ruler, where Jesus says, sell everything. I don't know that God would say to everyone, Hey, shut down the business and just stop right in a way that's not even this author's story, because she's still building a business. It just looks very different. But anyways, long story short, I think vigilance, alertness, a sensitivity to God's Spirit, accountability to God's people, and a real discernment about whose voices are shaping your daily life, including your business. All of those are the ingredients. It's nothing new in the Christian life, but it's it's taking very seriously that Jesus spoke more about money than he spoke about sex, about hell, about a lot of other things. And so when it comes to business, making money is not inherently wrong, but it is definitely playing with fire. Some may disagree with that, but I'm just convinced we need to know the idols of our environment and in America, success, hustle, financial stability are all things that we can start to settle into that atrophy our awareness of God's leading and we become drones who have theological answers for why we're doing what we're doing, but maybe our hearts have become deadened and numb to what God would really invite us to. And that sounds so foreboding and scary, but actually it's a joy as I worked with that same author, and her life is so much better than when she was running that six figure business or seven figure business like the million dollar mark that didn't satisfy her. It's living in close communion with God and being able to hit the pillow at night knowing that you are in his will and. And that he's your provider, and he's got you, and that you're willing to say no maybe to certain things. It could be revenue or it could just be the number of hours you work, I don't know, but man, that is, that's the sweet spot, that's where God calls us to live. And it's not an easy life, but it's a really fulfilling life. And so the money's not gonna save you. It's not going to make your life as good as you think it is. And I preach that to myself all the time,
Joshua Johnson:that's good. So one of the things that you said in the middle of that is that what grounds us in the middle of this tension between business and ministry and this tension, I think, of productivity and just being in the will of God and the American culture of hustle. And you know, success is our spiritual disciplines. What spiritual disciplines have helped you? What does it look like in your life? What? What grounds you in your relationship with God?
Will Parker Anderson:Thanks for that question. Joshua, I It's funny because I know what my answers are, but I just want to lead with this. You know, I don't have it all figured out, and I think every day is just a struggle to live a balanced life and to walk closely with Jesus. And, you know, like everyone else, probably listening, when I come to Scripture, I try to read Scripture daily. I'm not always in the mood. I'm not always walking away like, Oh, that was the best, you know, I got so much from that. It's just simple daily obedience. And so there's no silver bullet to sanctification. It is what it is, but it's just a willingness to plod along and to keep taking steps, I will say, because we've been talking so much about business, like, personally, it's easy for me to shut off from my day job as a full time editor. Like, at the end of Friday, going into the weekend, I close my laptop and I'm like, I'm done with that until Monday, but because I also run something called the writer's circle, which is a community for writers who are looking to get published, that's always just buzzing in my mind, and it's hard to turn that off. That's like, oh, I have 10 things I need to do for my business, but today is Saturday, and my highest priority is being with my kids and resting. And so some of the disciplines that have helped me, one is just digital disconnection, and what that looks like for me is on Sundays, I am not checking any social media. I'm not working on the business at all. I actually, I have three young kids, and so when they take their nap, I take that opportunity. My wife graciously allows me to drive about 2030, minutes out of Orange County, California, where I live, into this nature preserve, where there's a creek that's flowing and these beautiful oak trees, and that has become my place where I swear as I pull in and park, my soul just immediately starts to breathe in a different way, and I just use that time to journal, walk, pray, you know, read, do whatever. So that's a big one. I think it would be like if someone never slept. You know, as tired and worn down as you would be if we don't detox ever from our phones and our work and being on screens or whatever that looks like for your listeners, your soul is going to just get run down and exhausted. The difference is, with our physical bodies, we literally can't keep living if we don't sleep with our souls. We can technically still keep going and functioning. We can stuff it and plaster over it with busyness, but eventually it's gonna get us and so yeah, I've just found that you gotta let your soul rest, and not just rest, but absorb nutrients and become stronger. And I'm just reminded of how God commanded His people to let the land rest every seven years. I was just at a farm last summer on the central coast of California where they actually do this, and they were giving us a tour of all their crops, and then they paused in this area that was just sort of a tilled field, but nothing was growing. And they're like, you know, we let the land rest, and here's why, and here's all the nutrients it absorbs from the rain and the runoff. And they had all this great information to share, and that is our souls and a weekly rhythm, right? God's wisdom is every seventh day you got to give yourself that Sabbath. And so anyways, that's a huge one for me, another unexpected one, because I could talk about scripture, prayer, community, church, fasting, a number of things, but one that is often overlooked is play. I would say play is a spiritual rhythm. God's heart is one of joy. Jesus Himself said. I want your joy to be overflowing, and not as the world gives you peace or joy, but in a more robust way, my spirit wants to overflow in you. And I just I'm guilty. I take myself too seriously. I get too intense about things, and it is serious. The work that God calls us to. It's eternal work. It's meaningful work. It's work that we pour ourselves out for, we sweat for, we bleed for. But at the same time, what I've noticed back to your original question about where do you get pulled in unhealthy directions? I think I if I'm not careful, start to believe I don't have time to laugh, I don't have time to have fun, I don't have time to be with friends and to do things simply for the joy of doing them. That is such a beautiful spiritual rhythm, one that actually came out in a survey to pastors. They were trying to figure out what makes some pastors stay for decades and to finish in that role, versus those that bail? And one of the top answers was the pastors with the most longevity, despite the emotional toll of the role and everything that comes with it, is their ability to play those that make space to play, to pursue hobbies, to carve out time for vacations. I can't tell you, because I was a pastor for over a decade. How many pastors feel guilty for taking vacations and therefore just don't or they take vacations, but they're not really off. Man, that takes a toll on your soul, and so I would say play is a hugely important spiritual rhythm that I'm trying to reclaim. And with young kids, it's hard, but it's super important for my own soul. And so I'm trying to get back to more of that.
Joshua Johnson:So if you're talking to writers and you're editing people, there's a few things right there with play. If you're trying, you your purpose is to bring joy to your Creator. You're made in the image of the creator. You're a creative being. This is who you are. This is all of us. We're all creative beings made in the image of a creator. And so what is then the role for you of writing as creativity and play, and then writing as as productivity and job.
Will Parker Anderson:Yeah, wow. I think they're intertwined. You know, I think of the famous Chariots of Fire quote that Eric little says, you know, he's an Olympic runner, and he says, When I run, I feel God's pleasure, and you can't find a more strenuous painful activity than an Olympic runner. Oh my gosh, it's like pure mental and physical strain. And yet, as he trained, you know, chalk it up to endorphins or the Spirit of God in Him, or whatever you want to do, and probably both, because God created our biological bodies and our souls. But as we do the work of writing, it's a love hate. It's like Man, this is toil, and we hit walls or we procrastinate. We put off our work, we get really excited about ideas, only to find others aren't as excited about them, and that's the reality of the work, right, of writing. But in the same way that pastors who go the long haul have learned to play, I would say the writers who make it are those that truly just love to write. They love the work itself, the creativity of it, the the ideating, the rewrites, the massaging paragraphs until they arrive at their intended, you know, destination. And so I talked with a writer once on my podcast, and he had tried, I think it was eight years. He kept submitting articles, just dogmatically, was trying to get published at a particular organization's, you know, website, publication, just kept being told, No, no, no, until finally he got something published. And I was like, You're telling me that you submitted dozens of articles over basically a decade. What kept you going. Why did you like at a certain point, your pride just says, Okay, I can't take any more rejection. And his answer was simple and profound. He said, Oh, I did it because I just love to write. Like even though there was rejection there, he loved his craft so much, and he used those rejections to get better and better and better and to figure out how publishing works and how to navigate those conversations with editors. And he learned through failure to the point that now he's publishing his second or third book, dozens of articles out there in the world and so but it all really does go back. To that intermingling of joy and toil. Anything worth doing is going to be hard, and that's the work side, but anything worth doing is going to reward you along the way, maybe not in the public recognition way that you would hope could be. But for most writers that I speak to I just point them back in. A lot of them probably roll their eyes, and they're like, all right, tell me. Tell me what I really want to know, which is how to get published. But it's not a pat answer or a platitude to say, no. It's about the love for writing. Like publishing a book will not make you love writing, but if you love writing, it may eventually help you publish a book, and that order is everything, because if you love writing, it doesn't matter ultimately, whether a couple friends read it or 50,000 people buy your published version of it, if you really love to write, God is going to use those words in profound ways and some of the most impactful pieces of writing that I've ever read. One came from my mom as she was struggling with cancer, and she wrote this little note while in the hospital and some of her final hours. Those few words are some of the most beautiful, some of those beautiful writing I've ever seen. Another was a note that this old guy named Jerry wrote to me when I was in sixth grade. He read something I wrote, and he saw this a gift in me, and he decided to write me a note about it, and that note has stayed with me my entire life. And so he would get so preoccupied with getting published that I think we forget there are some smaller and really profound ways that God wants to use your writing outside of the whole publishing industry.
Joshua Johnson:So how do we stay connected to our creativity, whether it's writing or whatever creative endeavor that we're called to do when we're getting a lot of nos and rejections from the world. But how do we how do we continue in it? Like, if this is what does faithfulness look like in the midst
Will Parker Anderson:of that? Yeah, I think we can be strategic about this actually, because when we have lofty goals, like I'm going to land a book deal, then anything that's not that feels like a loss and feels like rejection and can turn us against ourselves in discouragement. And so I encourage writers to set themselves up for smaller wins along the way, because it's very rewarding to put your writing out there, even if it's to a small group of people, but to receive positive feedback and to to hear someone say, Wow, that resonated with me, or that helped me, or I felt seen. I'd never thought about it that way. When we start to get that feedback, it kind of lights and relights that fire and keeps us going. And so I think we can set ourselves up to experience that and to resist the temptation to sort of hoard our writing to ourselves, thinking that, okay, one day I'm going to land the book deal, then I'm going to show my writing to the world instead of that, a maxim that I often say is practice in public. So publish on sub stack, start an email newsletter, start handwriting one to two notes a week to people. Write a short instead of writing a full 50,000 word book, write 1000 word short story and email it to 10 friends and family members, invite a friend to coffee and ask them to read it beforehand so that you can come and talk about it together. The secret is to share your writing and to write often. And so we get idealistic, and we think, Okay, I'm going to show my work when I get my big break, and instead, you got to create little breaks for yourself. You got to create little opportunities, and that's also how you grow, by the way. So both you'll be sharpened because you'll receive some some pushbacks or some critiques, but you'll also be encouraged, and you'll lose that fear of putting your material out there, it's going to lose its sting like it's anticipation is far worse, right than the actual act of doing something. So if you're just waiting and waiting and waiting for to finally show your work to people, and that's going to torture you. So I say, get it out there now and be okay with it not being your best work at times, and be okay with looking back on what you wrote a year ago and thinking, wow, I could do a lot better now. And I experienced that all the time, and I have learned not to resent Will's writing from a year ago, but to pay it its dues, because without that mediocre writing. Then I couldn't write my slightly less mediocre stuff now and and God is teaching me. I'm learning from others. And anyways, so that that would be my main advice, is practice in public. Just start putting stuff out there in whatever way you can.
Joshua Johnson:I think that's that's helpful. It's been helpful for for me, as I am pursuing some writing is so I've been, I've been writing a one man stage show, and, wow, I have a collaborator in it. So filmmaker, screenwriter that's working with me, and that's really helpful is one like, there's instant feedback from one other person, and then as we share it widely, I'm having my first table read of it next week, and I'm really excited about it's exciting, what it looks like with an audience, with some people, and then saying what doesn't work, what is bad, what what's not helpful. And that feedback is really, really key, and that's gonna help grow me as a writer, knowing that, hey, I I'm probably harder on myself than than other people, right? Like I so that's the question. I think maybe for me as you know, I'm really self critical. I want you know, I know what really good writing is, and I know that I don't live up to it. And so one of the things that I think any creative would would think about is, hey, I don't have it in me to get to that level. So why even try? Why do it? What advice do you give to people where they are self critical and they know that they don't measure up yet, but with practice, maybe they could get, you know, one or two sentences that actually sound really good.
Will Parker Anderson:Yeah. Well, Joshua, I love that very realistic goal of one or two sentences. I spoke with a writer recently who said my goal every time I sit down to write, whether it's a couple hours or however long, is to just get one good sentence. And real writers know that is easier said than done, and so some people are like, I'm gonna get 5000 words out. That's great. And maybe that's their way of getting that one good sentence, right? You have to make 100 versions of something and maybe 99 mediocre or bad versions of something to get one good thing. I would say, no matter what you do in life, you can look around and find people who are better. And so I think comparison is a really, really slippery slope. You have to be really careful, you know, rather than looking at a good writer and saying, Oh, I wish I was that good, I think you can look and find one thing that you admire about their writing and then try to emulate that so to look at them as a tutor, not your competition. So actually, yesterday I found this quote from James clear that I think speaks to this. So I'll just read it real quick. He wrote this quote to improve, compare little things, and then he lists marketing strategies, exercise techniques, writing tactics. Then he says, To be miserable. Compare big things, career path, marriage, net worth. And then here's the clincher. He says, Comparison is the thief of joy when applied broadly, but comparison is the teacher of skills when applied narrowly. And I love that. So if you look at a really good writer and you're like, oh my gosh, they wrote this amazing novel. Look at their book signings. There's a line around the block. Look at their platform. Look at the advances they get. That is comparing broadly, and you're just gonna drown in despair. But if you just say, okay, that writer, their dialog is so good and realistic and feels like it's living and breathing. Why is that? And then you go and you analyze that. That's the kind of thing that you can really learn, learn from. Fact, I was reading this great piece on dialog, and one of their pieces of advice was, just use the word said. Dial back your adjectives. Don't say, you know they they said vigorously or like and then they pointed to all these masters of the craft who it's like the words themselves are what bring dialog to life. It's not how you describe the dialog, like you just need the word said. Now, of course, good writers do use adjectives and adverbs and different things. So I'm not saying never to use them, but it's stuff like that, like very specific and suddenly, with that subtle shift, you know, as I'm writing dialog now, I just think, like, Okay, I don't even have to worry about adjective. I just or, you know, special fancy verbs. I can just say. Said, but it's what these characters are saying that really matters. And how can I make this as realistic and compelling as possible that's comparing narrowly? You know, I'm not going to Steinbeck thinking, how can I be better than him at describing a conversation that'll never that day is never gonna come. But what I can do is look at the simplicity of his verbs and the simplicity of the grammar around his dialog, and then to really hone in on how he is able to use colloquialisms and short little phrases that reflect real human interaction, and suddenly, instead of despairing, I'm growing
Joshua Johnson:fantastic. I think that's so important in comparing, you know, the small things be a teacher, comparing the big things and making miserable. That's such a such a helpful thing for us. Man, well done pulling that quote. That was
Will Parker Anderson:great. Well, thank you to James clear, yeah, I don't know how he does it. Every week he drops some gold and, my goodness, I don't know if he has a team that does it. I think he writes all his content. But yeah, thank you, James, wherever you are out there.
Joshua Johnson:So as you're working with writer circle, and you're working with a lot of riders, where do you where's the majority of people getting stuck in the writing like, what are some of the common pain points that you find?
Will Parker Anderson:It's a great question. Two come to mind, and I'll label them an internal hurdle and an external hurdle. The internal one is plain and simple, imposter syndrome. So I was leading a retreat for writers about exactly a year ago, actually, and the room was, it was a small group of maybe 15 that it was really high capacity leaders in the room that I had personally invited people I really respect that I really just want them to release their thoughts into the world. So I'm here to help them and coach them, but they're brilliant. And what surprised me is, as the retreat got started, one by one, different, people started to confide in me. I don't know if I belong here or I feel really nervous about this. As great thinkers and communicators, they still had all this hesitation when it came to writing and publishing, and think that's instructive for us, is that the greatest enemy is not some big publisher out there or some industry gatekeeper. It's our own self doubt. And as Christians, we have incredible resources, both in our identity in Christ, as well as the safety of community and unconditional love that is not tied to what we've accomplished or our status. Now as humans, we mess up. We start to overvalue those things, even in the body of Christ. But again, we self correct one another in love, and we do our best. And I would say the church is where I cut my teeth creatively, as a musician, as a writer. I told you about that note, that kind elderly man sent me. The church is an incredible incubator for creatives, or it can be, I think, when it's functioning in its healthiest form. So that's the internal hurdle imposter syndrome, that just this nagging sense that we're not good enough at any moment. You know, as you're approaching your table read Joshua, like, for you, like, it's just those thoughts of, like, what if I read this out loud and it sounds stupid? Or people are like, Ah, it's okay, but I don't know. It's those types of thoughts. I have them, you have them. And anyways, the external hurdle is, I think what we were talking about before, and this is specific to those that really want to get published traditionally, it's the platform thing. It's the fact that the industry has shifted in a way to favor those that have garnered a lot of followers, and that is a nut that many of us struggle to crack, but that's very specific to wanting to get published, right? So I think both of those I meet writers who they've talked and talked and talked about this book they're gonna write, but the self doubt has paralyzed them. And then I meet some real, driven people who might, quite honestly overestimate their writing ability, but I love their tenacity and zeal, and they're just going for it, and they're cold emailing publishers, and they've written 100,000 word manuscripts, and they're like, Who wants this? Let's go. Let's do this. But they just have not developed and gathered a following that publishers are expecting. So you know, those are two very real hurdles.
Joshua Johnson:So if you could talk to to Christian writers specifically. Like people that actually want to put words out in the world that maybe shape some some thinking and some thoughts and to help people. What would your advice to Christian writers be? What would you say to Christian writers?
Will Parker Anderson:Yeah, I'm very, very passionate about helping writers who also love Jesus navigate this journey and so quick, shameless plug, I started something called the writer's circle, which is a podcast and a newsletter. And if people go to writerscircle.co.co, they can sign up for my newsletter. But here's the vision behind it that I think answers your question. If I could say something to other Christian writers, it would be we need each other, and it's, I call it writer's circle, because publishing often feels to those on the outside like it's this elite inner circle that only the cool kids get to join. You know that you have to do something impressive to be welcomed into the ranks and to publish your work. And as an editor, I do work with a lot of authors who have, quote, unquote, arrived in terms of their name recognition. They've gathered people around their thoughts and ideas. But writer circle is to say, Okay, this is not who's in, who's out. Let's erase those lines and let's actually gather in a circle and have conversations and share knowledge and be really generous with what it's like on the inside of publishing, and for those really skilled writers to circle up and share what you know with one another. And so that's what I do on the writer circle podcast, is I just, I invite in literary agents, editors, well known Christian authors, newbie Christian authors who are just starting out, and just document their journey in real time. And all of that is just meant to drip feed encouragement into the lives of those writers. And same thing with the newsletter is I just I share what I'm learning, and little insider tips that I know are going to help move writers forward, and so do not try to do it alone. Is the takeaway. Like you need others around you, both for wisdom and insight, for encouragement, for feedback and sharpening and so, yeah, don't. Don't do it alone, just like any part of our lives, as followers of Jesus are meant to be lived in community. The same is true as a writer. Don't go it alone and recognize again, that the the current of our culture will naturally isolate you, will pull you away in front of your laptop, and will not push you to have community. So that's something that you can seek out on your own and in my own small way, I think the writer's circle provides that, at least in terms of listening in on conversations and reading developmental content that will encourage and nourish your soul and your craft. But yeah, find your people.
Joshua Johnson:That's great. A couple quick questions here at the end. Will one, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give? Oh,
Will Parker Anderson:wow. Well, first I would ask, Why are you such a fool? No, just kidding, my 21 year old self, yeah, I'm just thinking back, where was I? Okay? So I would have been, I think, a junior or senior in college. One I would have grace on that guy, because I think I was still discerning what God's direction for my life was, right. I was coming to the end of a journalism degree. I guess one thing I would say is cherish this season of life, especially when it comes to community. I'm approaching middle age here, so a lot of people experience this, particularly men, but we just find ourselves in a season of life that's high in responsibility and lacking in community. And the loneliness epidemic of modern life is well documented, but an interesting nuance to it is that men in particular are very lonely and struggle to initiate friendships and to maintain those rhythms. So thinking back on my 21 year old self, I was surrounded by friends and really immersed in good community, just a very different season of life. And so I think just savoring that and appreciating that, maybe the other thing I would do is, and I don't know, yeah, because you have to learn lessons over time, but I think my love for building and creating things, I think I would take that more seriously, and maybe have started some things earlier, even with my writing, of investing more in my craft. So. Those would be maybe a few things I'd say. But overall, I know that God, in His wisdom and His timing, has led me on a path that's quite intentional, and I sort of accept what my early 20s were and what I needed to learn in those seasons. But anyways, what a great question
Joshua Johnson:that's helpful. I mean to me, yes, I would like, hey, savor that time. I mean, I look back and like, I didn't have the greatest college experience. I had actually a pretty bad college experience. Yeah, there are aspects of it that are like, I need to savor that community, the people around me. Yeah, so good. That's helpful for a lot of people. Anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend,
Will Parker Anderson:oh, wow, yeah, reading or watching? Yeah? Well, I'm always reading, so that's never a shortage of books. I would say I've been reading a series that's called every moment holy. Some of your listeners may know what that is, but it's a three volume work that is essentially liturgies for everyday moments of life. So I actually have a copy here, and I'm always looking to remind myself that God is present with me. And why I love this book, is it it turns mundane moments into holy moments. And so here's a sampling of like the types of there's these little prayers, almost poetic little prayers. And so some of them are a liturgy for the preparation of a meal, for doing laundry, for first responders, a liturgy before taking the stage for the morning of a yard sale, before beginning a book for gardening, for consuming media like it's such a brilliant series, and it's really beautifully written as well. So the writing is so good. So yeah, I would encourage readers to check that out, and there's a couple in there specifically for creatives and writers. So no matter what you do, there's one that I think it's volume three is aimed at the vocations we have in the work that we do, and that's probably a good place to start.
Joshua Johnson:Well, my wife has probably bought Volume Two for people more than anything. And so she's she used it a lot as we were processing and walking with her mother as she was dying. So it's a liturgy for death and dying. And it was pretty powerful, as reading over these liturgies through that process was really, really good and helpful. So every moment holy is fantastic series. It's really good. So you could go to writer circle.co right? Is it the writer's circle? That CEO? Just writer circle.co, writer ridercircle.co, so go sign up for the newsletter. Join this community as you're you're writing, you're hoping to get published, you're going to gain a lot of wisdom from will. And what he has discovered as he's editing in the middle of it, as he's talking to different writers and publishers and and people in the game. So you want to go and join that. It's good. Is there anywhere else you'd like to point people to? How can they connect with you?
Will Parker Anderson:Nope, that's it. Yeah. That'd be a great place to go for those that are looking to build a book proposal, which is a huge part of the publishing process. I'm also rolling out a course in a couple of weeks here that walks you through that very daunting process, step by step and so, but all of that will be housed at writer circle.co so that's our
Joshua Johnson:people. Perfect, great. Well, well, thank you for this conversation. Thanks for diving deep into the process of writing, into creativity, into the tension of business and ministry, into spiritual disciplines. It was a fantastic conversation. Really enjoyed talking to you. So thank you so much.
Will Parker Anderson:Yeah, thanks. Joshua, really deep and good question. So it was a joy to talk with you. You.