Shifting Culture
Shifting Culture
Ep. 211 Jamie Winship Returns - Receiving Your True Identity
In this conversation, Jamie Winship talks about the importance of finding true identity in God and community, rather than in individual performance or achievement. We discuss how fear and shame can lead to false identities, and how addressing the root causes of these negative emotions through prayer and imagination can help people find freedom and peace. We talk through how true identity and addressing the real fear we have can help untie the knots of conflicts and bring needed peace. We touch on the role of group identities, the dangers of radical individualism, and how addressing injustice and restoring what has been stolen can help overcome depression and other mental health challenges. Join us and walk in your true identity.
Jamie Winship has decades of experience bringing peaceful solutions to some of the world’s highest conflict areas.
After a distinguished career in law enforcement in the metro Washington DC area, Jamie earned an MA in English and developed a unique process called the Identity Method. This process of identity transformation is the key to resolving inner conflict and acquiring new levels of learning and creativity. His unconventional efforts to bring about societal and racial reconciliation led him to Indonesia, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Israel and back to the U.S.
Jamie has worked with leaders in professional sports, business, education, law enforcement, government, non-profit, and other sectors. He is the author of the book Living Fearless.
Jamie and his wife, Donna, are co-founders of Identity Exchange, a training and consulting agency that helps individuals and teams discover new levels of creativity and resiliency within the framework of true identity.
Jamie's Book:
Living Fearless
Register for Further Together and the Identity Exchange workshop at All Nations KC: allnations.us
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true identity takes away conflict, it takes away measurement, it takes away competition, it takes away self protection and self promotion. radical individualism is subjective, conditional to circumstances, and never let you have peace.
Joshua Johnson:Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson, our show is powered by you, the listener, if you want to support the work that we do get early access to episodes, Episode guides and more. Go to patreon.com/shifting culture to become a monthly patron so that we can continue in this important work. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now. And hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcasts where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Pete Gregg, Michael frost and Meredith Johnson. You go back and listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Jamie Winship. It's so great having Jamie back on the podcast, Jamie has decades of experience bringing peaceful solutions to some of the world's highest conflict areas. After a distinguished career in law enforcement in the metro Washington DC area, Jamie earned an MA in English and developed a unique process called the identity method. This process of identity transformation is the key to resolving inner conflict and acquiring new levels of learning and creativity is unconventional efforts to bring about societal and racial reconciliation led him to Indonesia, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Israel and back to the US. Jamie has worked with leaders in professional sports business education, law enforcement, government, nonprofit, and other sectors. He is the author of the book Living fearless. Jamie and his wife Donna are co founders of identity exchange, a training and consulting agency that helps individuals and teams discover new levels of creativity and resiliency within the framework of true identity. In this conversation, Jamie Winship talks about the importance of finding true identity in God and community. Rather than an individual performance or achievements. We discuss how fear and shame can lead to false identities and how addressing the root causes of these negative emotions through prayer and imagination can help people find freedom and peace. We talked through how true identity and addressing the real fear we have, can help untie the knots of conflicts and bring needed peace. We touch on the role of group identities, the dangers of radical individualism and how addressing injustice, and restoring what has been stolen can help overcome depression, and other mental health challenges. So join us and walk in your true identity. Here is my conversation with Jamie Winship. Uh, Jamie, welcome back to shifting culture excited to have you back on. Thanks for joining me.
Jamie Winship:Yeah, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. It's great to be with you. Again, I
Joshua Johnson:want to go a little deeper in the second conversation that we've had. So a lot of it, we've talked about the actual process of identity exchange. And I'm going to walk a little deeper through ask some questions. So I know, one of the questions you'd like to ask people when you're meeting with people sometimes meeting with groups is what are you afraid of? Yeah. And so I'm going to ask you that, what are you afraid of right now?
Jamie Winship:Yeah, I'm my fear. You know, it's interesting. Most fears are there. They're pretty rudimentary, they're pretty root level. And so my biggest fear, almost always is that I'm going to disappoint people.
Joshua Johnson:I can, I can see that. I can feel that I have that disappointment, feeling. I think my biggest fear coming in is that I hope that I am intelligent enough. And I'm articulate enough that I can, and I can keep up with you or anybody that I'm interviewing at that time. And that is a good, good fear. Where do you think that comes from? Can you take me into your childhood? Where do you think fear and shame crept in your childhood? Yeah, it's,
Jamie Winship:it's pretty, it's pretty straightforward. So I've had I've done a lot of, you know, work, praying through this, but I have to do it pretty regularly. Um, so when I was young, you know, elementary school, my mom wanted to start a kids Bible study on our street, there's five kids in our family. And so I was like, second or third grade. And, and so just to add the Bible club, we used to have to go out and knock on doors and invite kids. And for some reason, that was just really horrifying to me, at that age to go knock on doors of some people I knew, but mostly people I didn't know. And, and then, you know, invite them to this to this Bible study. And I just, I didn't like the Bible study. I didn't like anything about it. And so, you know, so my, my brother loved him, I have an older brother, he's love knocking on doors, he loved inviting people. And I hated it. And I was intimidated by it. I didn't like the Bible club thing. And so, you know, already I started thinking, well, there's something wrong with me, because I should love this. My brother loves it. It is a Bible study. And so I would tell my mom, I go to my mom, and I'd say, Mom, I'm afraid to do this. And it's, and it's intimidating to me, and I don't, I don't like it. And she would say that God was disappointed in me. And that and that she was disappointed too. So, so So then, early in my life, I started to associate if, if there must be something wrong with me, because there's certain things I'm supposed to like, and if I don't like them, then so then I disappoint God, and I disappoint my mom. And so I develop the identity of I'm a disappointment, because I couldn't get rid of the negative feeling towards the situation. And so I just start thinking, I'm a disappointment. And then you have to develop coping mechanisms to, to deal with the truth in your mind that you're a disappointment.
Joshua Johnson:Right? So what were some of those coping mechanisms that you were doing?
Jamie Winship:over achiever, you really only have two options. If you're a disappointment, and you know, you are because you have the evidence that you are I tell people all the time, what you believe about yourself isn't because things didn't really happen. They did. It's that your understanding of them is incorrect. That facts are the facts. They did happen. My mom was disappointed in me. God was in but my mom was. That's true. And so when you when you when you're being told that by a caregiver by someone who's a nurturer, it's quite, I mean, you believe it. And so there'll be mechanism with your disappointment, you only have two coping mechanisms. One is you just become a disappointment. Like you just accept it live as a disappointment. Give up, we're not going to try or you go to prove that you're not a disappointment in everything that you do. So you'd become an over achiever or a high achiever, which looks good. But it's, it's it's very unhealthy. So I became an overachiever.
Joshua Johnson:Well, we all have these unhealthy coping mechanisms that we have in our life, we all have the facts of what happened to us growing up or in our adulthood. And but how do we start to then reframe that? What does it look like to go back to those stories back to those places where we took on a false identity and a false thing that God's not saying this about us? Were saying this about us, ourselves, or somebody else's saying it about us, and just put it on us? So how do we go back to those places?
Jamie Winship:Well, so what so what is the mechanism that God's put in place for us to address those negative emotion? So so like, I was wrestling with this the other day, you know, we're, we're working on a project, it's, it's the project's difficult, it's it, I don't have the expertise for the project. And yet, I'm part of it. And so every time I go into it, I, that there's the temptation to believe that I'm going to be a disappointment. And so it creates fear in me. Well, the so the beauty of fear is that fear is pointing to the false belief. That's what fear does. Fear is pointing to the thing that you're going to do or believe that's going to hurt you. And so, if you just try and get rid of the fear, you never address what the fear is pointing to, which is what most of us do is like, take away my fear. Instead of like, what is it that I'm afraid of? I'm afraid of being a disappointment. That's what I'm afraid of. Okay, Lord, where did I learn that I'm a disappointment. Where did I wasn't born thinking I'm a disappointment. I had to be told I was a disappointment and agree with it. So where in my life did I first learn or was I told that I was a disappointment and Actually, most humans can answer that fairly quickly. If I asked them, if I say, Well, here's the first person that told you, you were a disappointment. Most humans know where that started, or you're a failure, you're ugly or whatever. And so then, so I knew like, Yeah, my mom was the first one that told me that went. And then then you go back into the situation in your, in your mind, because your mind doesn't know past, present and future, it's only present tense, that I'm a disappointment is a present tense belief, even though you learned it in the past. It's a present tense belief. And so I still believe in the present tense, I'm a disappointment. So where did I learn it from my mother? When did that happen? What effect surrounded that occurrence of that statement? And then you walk back into it. And then you ask God, help me understand the truth of that situation. Not just what I pulled out of the situation. And that's where God is truth counters the lie. So it's not what happened. It's what's your understanding of what happened, right? So when God tells you what actually is happening there, he tells you the truth. The truth is what liberates you.
Joshua Johnson:It sets you free. And one of the things that you you said in your book, Living fearless, and you wrote that suicide, true identity is received from God, and community through the intuitive mind in prayer. And so we're talking a little bit about the intuitive mind there. And so tell me, what is the intuitive mind? And how do we know that we're receiving it from God the strip's Yeah, so
Jamie Winship:the intuitive mind is the you know, some people say it's, it's right brain is the intuitive minds, right brain, it's, it's the prefrontal cortex, it's the part of the brain that dreams and imagines, can you the imagination that can imagine forward. And the imagination only thinks in symbols and pictures. So when we say the intuitive mind, is the part of the mind that goes above the rational, outside the rational into anything is possible, anything's possible. And it's it the intuitive mind, or the contemplative mind is the place where humans encounter God, that's the part of the mind. And so if you're studying the history of the creative process, which have a ton of books back here, all of the creative process, documentation, talks about how you, Einstein says it, the intuitive, the intuitive mind is the master and the rational mind is the servant. But we have made servant the master. So the intuitive mind is able to go outside of existing law and frameworks to see a new paradigm. And so in the scriptures, it says, He is kept in perfect peace, whose mind and imagination that's the Hebrew whose mind and imagination is fixed on God because he trusts in God. So the mind is the rational the imagination is the intuitive, which is faith, right? Faith is the substance of the things you hope for, not the things you're already having can see, it's what you hoped for the evidence of things not yet seen. So if we ask a person, how do you see a city a robe, a computer, a culture? How do you see it different than it is right now you have to use the imagination, you don't have an option, you have to see it in a new way in order to move in that direction. So that's the intuitive mind, the contemplative mind. And the other part of that is I said this in a with a bunch of public school teachers a couple of weeks ago. In the Shuman no innovation can occur without contemplation. First, it's a human cannot innovate without contemplation. First, contemplation is intuitive mind contemplation is like that didn't work. Let's imagine another paradigm that would work. And when you when you receive that, or intuit that in prayer, or meditation whenever, then you bring it down into the rational and work it out. So it's, it's very well using the whole mind and imagination. Whole right brain left brain, we're just a very rational left brain dominant worldview. And so when you, you know, when you start talking about imagination, or meditation or prayer, people get there, they're like, Well, you know, we need to like have the facts. When you can't, no one, no one is operating apart from imagination. All of us are using it all. We just we just don't use it. properly and to the capacity that we could.
Joshua Johnson:So how does the imagination the creative process work out? One of your your identities right? You're an entire have nots. That's right. One of the things you got sad about you, this is who you are, you're an entire have nots. How does the imagination work in and major conflicts? Bring me into the the Middle East premier anti ISRAEL PALESTINE? What would the imagination I know this is a it's a big one but I think the imagination for a better future or a new future is necessary if something is going to change and happen. How do we bring new imagination to that space?
Jamie Winship:Right? And remember, like, this is what's so beautiful about Hebrews, you know what it's saying? Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not yet seen. And then it lists all the people that move and say, and it says without safe without the ability to hope for and believe in things not yet seen. Without without that it's impossible to please God. So people think why just drum up this kind of emotion to make me do courageous things that would it means it means unless you're fixing your mind and imagination on God and saying, God, what do you want me to know and do in this situation? Know is intuitive do is rational. Unless you're doing that, you're just going to do whatever you think on your own. And so you, please God, just doing whatever you think is right. So you go into a conflict situation like the Middle East. So we have a conflict between two people, the people, the conflict is sourced in fear. There's a fear on both sides of scarcity, there's not enough land, there's not enough money. So we're gonna go take it from the other person, whichever. So it's all fear based. Well, so it doesn't take any creativity or innovation to go kill somebody, my pet, no will needs to pray on how to do that. We know how to do that you Cain didn't have to pray about how to kill Abel as a competitor. So we know that to go to war is doesn't require the Holy Spirit. It just doesn't enjoy what Jesus is talking about love your enemy, and do good to those age you. What takes immense creativity is how do we overcome the fear that's driving us into conflict? Or how do we ever allied based thinking that's driving us into I've got to self protect and self promote? So to do that, so like, for example, if you're with a, I mean, you can take a group of Hamas or, or Hezbollah or any of those, any of them, Russians, Ukrainian, and you can go into that community and say, Okay, God, what is motivating the conflict? It's not land, not any of that stuff. It's fear. What? So then we're in with the Hamas guys, what are you afraid of? We are afraid that we are powerless and alone this in the situation where we're powerless and alone. Because we're powerless and alone, we have to gain path forward and prove that we have power. So so when we're with them, so they're like, we're gonna fight. And then when they go to fight, then Israel's like, well, we're gonna fight and then you know, just goes like that. So when we got in with Hamas, or with those guys, I asked them, and Hamas is not a true identity. So you don't want even use that term with these individuals? And I asked them the leadership, what is it that you want? Like, what do you want? This is years ago, I wish they would have listened to this process. And they said, you want to be free. We want to be free. Okay. Everyone wants to be free. Okay. I said, So, okay. So you want to be free? In your mind? What is the strategy to bring freedom? And they're stuck? And they're like, well, we're not sure. And I said, I'll tell you what your strategy has been war, fighting. And fighting does not bring freedom. But we're taught, it does. We are all taught that. You know, we fought for our freedom.
Joshua Johnson:Right? But freedom fighter is an identity, right? That's
Jamie Winship:right. And the reality is, Jesus died to give us our freedom. It's the opposite of how the rational brain thinks about it. So So those guys were like, you know, we have to fight and I said, Okay, let's talk about what fighting has done. You know, you lost this, you lost theirs, it only leads to more conflict, more death, and you're not winning. And anyway, so I said, So let's, let's try and think of another way. Well, to think of another way, they have to leave the rational and go into their intuitive mind which they which they've never done, who's doing it? And so I have to teach them how to Use the intuitive mind or pray or ask God, they've never done it. And because their belief is that ain't gonna work. So so so someone's got to sit with them and say, let's, let's experiment. And so with this particular group, I'm saying, let's imagine that we're with God. And we're asking God, we know that fighting is not producing freedom, what would bring us freedom, as a people, and they start to have ideas. This is called prayer. And we are, we are asking the Holy Spirit to guide and direct and give them ideas that is based on life. And then they start coming up with ideas of wow, we didn't know that you could ask God for help, and creativity and life. And then God would actually speak back to us. And so now you're talking about a whole different view of God than they have. Right? And so now you're different. Now things are different. Are you talking? They're saying, are you talking about a God that communicates back to us? Because he loves us? Yes. Wow, we didn't know that. There's a new idea. Right? And then they start moving towards that idea, God starts to give ideas. And so in that, in that community, they they said, Okay, one thing we need to stop doing is fighting. So that was huge, right? When they decided that they were going up fighting, what can we do? Well, can we do to create freedom and peace, and then the what they figured out really in prayer and stuff was that freedom comes from the inside out, doesn't come outside to you, you become free inside and that freedom goes out like this. So then the question was, are you free here? Man, they never thought about that. And so how does God bring freedom, and then we end up at the freedom, the freedom that God has given us in that while we were his enemies, He died for us whole new concept, what do you do with an enemy, you die for him. And that set this group on a journey. And the result of that was that they disarmed. They disarmed, and they disbanded as a militant group in this one community. And instead, they turned their efforts to teaching free internal freedom, spiritual freedom to their young people, which affected their education program, which made their education program better. And then then all this other influence has started come because because the school change, and then the freedom starts in the kids and goes out like this. And so even when all this stuff broke out with Hamas, you can look at a map this community, this one city, not involved in any of it. Wow, they're like an oasis.
Joshua Johnson:I, well, that's amazing to be able to get access to be able to do that, to sit with people, and to bring them through that transformation process. I think a lot of people if we're in a western context, America as the most individualistic nation, ever, in the history of the world, we think this is about me and me alone. There are so many group identities. Where does group identities? How do we heal and know the truth of group identities and not just our individual selves?
Jamie Winship:Yeah, that's also really good questions. And the fact that you even asked that question helps people. What do you mean those agree by that? What do you mean as a group? So yeah, so the thing about, you know, I'll speak just as a person from the US, but we don't know how to introduce ourselves apart from separating. So like, if I'm in a room of 20 Americans, and I say, introduce yourself, everything we say, creates fragmentation in the room. If I stand up and say, I'm an evangelical man, you split the room, right? That just with that introduction, because you're establishing your camp, if I say, I mean, first, the fact that I'm white, that can be that can start it, but if I if I say, you know, I have a PhD from Yale fragment fragment tracks, I'm fragmenting the room because then people will start comparing themselves to that. Right? And so we actually don't know how to introduce ourselves in a way that brings reconciliation at any level. We don't know how to do it. We were never taught to be separate individual. It's all about the individual and you and then your family like that. So one of the things is our in our languages, we have to introduce reconciliatory or conciliatory. Language and watch Jesus, he uses it all the time. Jesus doesn't use separation language, he uses connection language. And so that's part of being discipled is learning how to open your mouth in such a way that causes fists to drop around you instead of go up. And so for me, all I have to do, what I do is when I'm in the US talking to any individual or group, where I'm going to get we're going to Chicago to do this for for two days, is I just have to stand up and say, Listen, we're all from different groups. But what we want to talk about is what we all have in common and start there. What do we all have in common? Here's what we all have in common fear. That's what every human has in common with every other human fear. So if I say, I don't care what party you're from, what I don't care about is it. Tell me your first name, and tell me what you're most afraid of in your life right now. Whatever that person says. 90% of the room is gonna go I know exactly what you mean. They could be Muslim, they could be it doesn't matter, they're gonna go, I know exactly what you mean. So when I stand up and say, My name is Jaime, I just before we start, I just want to tell you, I'm fearful right now in this room. What I'm afraid of is that I'm going to be disappointed. That's what I'm afraid of. Has anyone ever been afraid of being a disappointment? Raise your hand 75% of the room raise their hand. So I've already connected with the whole room. Now if I stand up and say, Hey, I'm here, I'm a, you know, I have a Biblical education. I'm just chopping the room at the sessions. Because they those things, people like, oh, well, what if I don't have a what kind of biblical edge like they chop there. So I'm going to do this in Chicago, I'm going to say, that's how I'm going to start. And I'm going to say what we're going to do is I'm going to teach you how to get rid of that fear. And at telling you, every human is going to sit there and go, Okay, I got it, I want to hear this. Right. But if I said I want to teach you how to become a Christian to go to heaven, when you die, I lose part of the room. When made, I may not know what that means, or whatever. So I'm looking for the I'm looking for the thing that all humans have in common. So the number one exhortation in Scripture is don't be afraid. The number one most commonly said, exploitation of scriptures do not be afraid. Why? Because almost everything we do is fear based. Almost everything we do is fear based. So if you can, if you can tell a person, I'm here to help you not be afraid anymore, that person will listen to you for at least a while. If you can tell him that. The solution to that, which is basically what why does a terrorist group form they're afraid. They're afraid they're losing something, and they gotta go fight to get it back. Because no one's going to help them.
Joshua Johnson:What's the process then to start to identify group fear? Like what is the the fear of this particular group? Yeah.
Jamie Winship:So is, is to to again, the next thing is to teach them what it means to tell the truth. So I say this all the time when I was speaking as well. The problem with humans is not that they're liars. It's just they don't know how to tell the truth. That they're intentionally lying. They just actually don't even know what's true about even what they think. So if I say to me what you're afraid of, I'm afraid I'm afraid that I'm not gonna have enough money. Like, that's actually not what you're afraid of. That's how it shows itself. But that's not you're afraid of. Let's talk about why. Okay, keep going with that fear. I'm not gonna have enough money. So what So you run out of money? Well, okay, what happens? Well, then, I'm embarrassed. What? I'm embarrassed. Why? Because well, I'd be ashamed that up. That what are you afraid of shame. And money can't take away shame. You think it can't? Can't? And so like, and then you're down to Okay, well, who told you to be ashamed? Where did you learn to be a shame? Just like God is saying to Adam and Eve? Who told you to be ashamed? I did it. God doesn't shame. He doesn't shame people. He doesn't say tell people to go hide and cover themselves up. He's asking them who told you to be ashamed? I did it. So when you're with the person, just like with the process we just did. Once they say their fear, okay, let's look at let's tell the truth about this. And I'm gonna help you tell the truth. What are you afraid of? I'm afraid. I'm afraid I might lose my job. Okay. People lose their jobs all the time. They don't die from it. You go again. What? Yeah, but then it would mean I'm a failure, huh? Yeah. Where did you learn that? Where did you who's the first person that said you were a failure based on performance? And now you're down at the root of how they identified themselves. And so their group that they're in is to protect them? It's a coping mechanism against dealing with that belief that I'm a failure. I'm gonna get in a strong group. And the group's going to prove that we're strong and powerful. And we're going to take over the country or we're going to take over the courts or whatever. But it's all because you're afraid.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah. It all boils down to fear. We got it. It's all there. It's all fear, ever telling.
Jamie Winship:See, here's another other little thing like that goes along with that. No human being can be angry about anything, unless it's a real or perceived injustice. A human cannot get angry at any situation, unless it's a real or perceived injustice. And the reason humans get angry at injustice is because it's a god emotion. God gets angry at injustice, he does. problem but but thing what God says is, in your anger, don't sit and don't judge, but address the injustice. So what we do is we'll experience an injustice, real or perceived, and we'll get angry, will judge and then we go exact event is all that's all wrong. So God's saying, In your anger, don't sin, in your anger, address, address the injustice, don't kill the person, or don't blame person, the person is doing what wounded broken, fearful people do, attack the injustice, go after the injustice. And so instead of you know, we're going to stop human trafficking or these things by lat putting as many people in prison as we can. It's, it's never worked. It'll never work. But we keep doing it because we think it makes us feel better. But what's the but what's the real cause of trafficking? What? The cause of trafficking scarcity world? That's the concept. It's the fear of not having enough money. If there was enough for everybody, why would you traffic anybody but but when you read the scriptures, it Nehemiah chapter five, Joseph, when he establishes the, you know, bring all the food to the store houses and make the people come buy it from Pharaoh, you see human trafficking starting in those scenarios. Nehemiah in chapter five, the there's a protest going on among the Jews against Jews. And Nehemiah is like, what's the problem? And poor Jewish people are saying, Look, we the mortgages on our property is so steep from our own people, that we're selling our kids into slavery to pay our mortgages. And their question is, why are we building a wall to protect this system? So when I say when you preach that sermon, it's like, are we charging mortgages to our own people that are so expensive, our own people can't even move? That's exactly what we're doing. Who's doing it, believers are doing it unbeliever we're all doing it like that. So the injustice causes anger. And then in the the injustice causes fear, which results in anger. So anytime there's anger in a situation, the question is, tell me what injustice Have you suffered? That is always the first question to a person. So I'll ask a person Why are you mad? What are you mad at? And they'll say, I don't know if I'm telling me the in what was stolen from you that's making you mad, what was stolen from you? Your land, your dignity, your childhood, your innocent, your integrity, what was and people just will start to cry. They never thought of it. But it was stolen from you. Okay. The person can't give it back. God can. Let's let's forgive the earth and let God restored back to you what was stolen from you? And let's get moving forward. Well, what
Joshua Johnson:is justice, then? What is justice?
Jamie Winship:So So justice, justice, just the word justice just means to discern or make a decision? This is where we've just invented our own definitions of these words. So what if the what the verse what is the Lord we require of you to? To do justice to love mercy and to walk humbly? So do justice just means discern how mercy and humility. So what we are taught is that justice and mercy are opposites. It can't be because God when God enacts justice, he's still merciful. And when he's merciful, He doesn't sacrifice justice, justice and mercy are the same thing. The reason we don't like that, well, what we need is mercy is letting the person go and justice is punishing the heck out of them. And so we're like, we're not just be merciful. We're also gonna have justice, but God's justice and Mercy are never separate. They're never separate. Just like, well, there's truth and there's love. No, there's not. There's truth. That's only love. And there's love. That's only truth. They're not they can't be separated. Otherwise, you have to separate God into sections. Is God being merciful today or just, he can only be merciful, and He can only do justice. So that's our that's our issue, because we want people to pay we, your I'm going to make you pay for what you did. So that's our problem. And we call it justice. That's not the answer. That's not a mission of justice. My
Joshua Johnson:My other question, now let's, let's go back into identities. We've talked about group identities, we're talking about the root and the basis of everything is fear that we want to hear God's truth. We live in a society now where identity is whatever you make of it as a very, like fluid identity. So my identity today is different than my identity tomorrow. And whatever I feel like today, that's one way that people are trying to say, they're defining themselves. The others, there's this counter enlightenment idea of I'm going to, you know, it's be rational, I could put pick myself up by my bootstraps, and I could, the way that I achieve and I perform is my identity. Like we're seeing this, a lot of probably Olympic athletes and their life, the Olympics are happening right now. They're going to define themselves by I am a gold medal swimmer, this is my identity. And then we have what you say. And I think, and I believe is that we need to receive identity from outside of ourselves. Absolutely. How do we how do we reconcile these two disparate ideas of identity is just whatever we want it to be. And then we're identity is our performance, our achievement? And where do we find true identity?
Jamie Winship:Yeah, that's a good, great question. So again, it's about definitions for sure. So the depth the difference between the two there, so so when we, it's interesting when we, when I teach this, like in low in these ideas in places where, you know, I don't mean like this term, but a secular and you're not allowed to use the Bible and all that stuff. I say, what I when I introduce what I'm going to do, I'm not talking about what's Christian and non Christian, I'm not talking about what's biblical and non biblical, those words don't really mean anything. I'm talking about what is true and what is not true. That's all and the Bible is about what is true and what is false. That's what it's about. Truth. Experiential truth sets, people free. Light a thinking produces separation and death. That's the way this world works. And so we have, so we have, we're on the issue of identity. Okay, so there's, there's identity, that's true. And the way we know it's true is it produces freedom, and love joy, peace pays patients goodness, that's the result of true identity. This other thing is called radical individualism there come it's a counterfeit to identity, radical, so true identity, as you're saying, is received in community. From God, we would say or from above, received in community, from God or outside of yourself. No, no, just like we were just doing Where did you win? And when someone says, I feel like I'm, I'm, you know, a disappointment, where our question is, where did you learn that? We're saying, Where did you receive? What community did you receive that identity from? So even in the false they've received it from a community outside of themselves? When a purse and that so no matter what they say, you're, you're still born and you start receiving all of it. You can't say you didn't receive it, you did. That's the only way we understand anything is by so if I say I get my identity from what I do, what I have and what people think about me or my attraction to another person, that's all learned. It's all received. So radical individualism though, is just saying I'm going to generate Maya. So that's okay. That's an option. So what is how to what's the what's the quality or characteristics of radical individualism? Number one, number one, it produces conflict immediately produces conflict. true identity takes away conflict, it takes away measurement, it takes away competition, it takes away self protection, self promotion, radical individualism is subjective, conditional to circumstances and never let you have peace. How do you know that you I just talked to people, right? Just look at our world, look at our world. And so so every every people group on the planet until modern times, all had naming ceremonies for their young, all of them that only the Jews still have. It's called a Bar Mitzvah. A bar mitzvah is where a Jewish person or a button mismos for a woman is when the person becomes an adult and receives their identity from the community from God. That's what, we don't have that stuff anymore. We just name our kids the coolest name of whatever the time period, right? But it's not attached to any community, or sense of Oh, I see, I'm this part. So like a Native American who was born on a certain day, that community would come together and based on all these events would say this kid is, you know, whatever, the one born under the hawk, when that kid grows up, that kid knows exactly where they belong in that community. And that community knows exactly who they are. And if you lose that person that want that things lost in our communities, we don't have any of that stuff. It's like, what where do you get identity, the community, give it to me, but I will find a community that will give it to me. It's the gay community, it's the Christian community. And then we form these gangs. And we tattoo the identities on our bodies, because we so have to have an identity that's not subjective. And conditional, even though they still are. So it's interesting. You're talking about the gold medal athletes. I mean, you can just go interview even even the you know, the big, the swimmer. That will be the guy that won all the gold medals. I saw him so many times. That's I can't even think of his name right now.
Joshua Johnson:Michael Phelps helps
Jamie Winship:the depression he went through. We did a we did a identity session with 10 medalist, we did this probably five years ago. 10 Olympic medalists. And we were lucky enough to work into false identity. The majority of them, eight of them said standing on the metal stand. What was going through their mind was I sacrificed my entire youth for this moment. I got up at 5am, I worked my butt off, I skipped all this, I never ate that. For this to hang around my neck. How long is that gonna last? That thing? And they it's very discouraging to him to think about this is my nd This is it. Because this isn't going to last long. You know how many how long people care that you want a gold medal?
Joshua Johnson:Not very long. And
Jamie Winship:so it's especially in those. So when we worked through with those with those medalists, it was there, none of their identities came from having a medal, or being in the Olympics. Because that's, that's getting your identity from a temporary situation. And so we so then we would pray with them. And like what is what is God always called you whether you want a metal or not. And that's the that gives them peace, rest. Right? So the radical individualism produces conflict immediately inside the person. When I ask a person why tell me what you're afraid of, I'm afraid to act. I already know they're operating in itself generated false identity. Because the person that true identity, you can you can tell when you're talking to them, they understand who they are, because they don't self put and they don't self protect. Yeah, there's a piece. But
Joshua Johnson:you briefly brought up depression. We have a society now that depression, anxiety runs rampant. Where does this identity the truth of knowing who we are actually play into our mental health?
Jamie Winship:Yeah, so depression, and we just did a 21 day guide walks through depression, it's called 21 days of hope in depression, which is free on our website, but So depression, you know, and I'm not a mental health expert. So this is a layman's description of it, but just from being a police officer and working in that field, and then overseas and, you know, conflict situation. Depression is anger turned inward and downward in a human. So back to what makes a person angry injustice. Alright, so you have a person, you're dealing with a person, we ran into this all the time, who becomes angry at a situation where an injustice has occurred in their life, whatever it is. And then so, so in healthy situation, that anger against the injustice is, is acted out in a in a healthy way to counter the injustice and then the anger is done. It's done its job. In an unhealthy situation the person's in, there's nothing they can do about the injustice. That's their perception. And so the anger just continues. But it can't go anywhere unless you go out and you know, hurt people, which some people do. So the anger gets turned inward. And this is like, don't let the sun go down on your anger for give place to the enemies because then that anger becomes part of you. And it does. It's a wait. It's funny in Scripture. It's not the word depressed. It's the word. It's the word burdened, weighted down, that's really more, right. It's like pushing you down, because it doesn't have anywhere to go. So when we're working with people who are depressed, I asked them, let's talk about what you're angry about first. And they may not know, they may say, Well, I'm not really angry. But it's like, well, let's just try and think about I'm not saying you're raging around, I'm just saying inside, you've had a low boil, anger going on for years. And it's driving you downward. And so let's figure out what's the source of the anger, which will be an injustice that you experienced in the injustice, what was stolen from you and be injustice, what did you lose, and it's very emotional to people to realize, oh, my gosh, it was stolen, something was stolen from me. I can't, you know, like, I have these granddaughters, and they're beautiful. And they sing, you know, they, they FaceTime us and sing songs to us. And they think or they're amazing singer. And they think they're beautiful. And they think they're great actresses, and they just are they are positive that there the top of their game at you know, nine. And that last, that'll last until one person tells them they're ugly. Right. And two are Junkers because you're a terrible singer. As soon as that lie, or truth, there may not be, they can never look in the mirror the same way. Now that had they just have been stolen from that shouldn't have been stolen from a less they have a process to work through to not let that be stolen from it's gone. So now, you know, they gotta do well, you know, you're not pretty. So now they look in the mirror, like, what are you gonna do with that? Either I'm going to strive to make myself as attractive as possible, or I'm going to accept the fact that I'm not attractive. And I'll just have to cope with that the rest of my life. So that can cause a lot of depression in a purse that and so it's like, what was stolen from what was stolen from you that day was your beauty. Your was stolen from you that day. It wasn't stolen, but you think it was stolen and that person and can come back to you and say you're beautiful 1000 times, it'll never help you. So let's let them go forgiveness? And let's ask God, would you restore back to me the view of myself that you have. And when they Kitt received that their beauty from the one who made them beautiful. There's no more injustice, and it's been restored back to him. And that's what helps us get out of the depression. So that's that's kind of the process we walk through. Depression is a wrong view of God, a wrong view of yourself and a wrong view of others turned inward on you.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah. Can you briefly talk? I know we talk a lot because we're, you know, adults and we talk about our own childhoods what what do we do then if that happens to your your granddaughter? What are your kids do as they parent her through this process?
Jamie Winship:Yeah, actually an art you know, because our, our kids grew up in this style of prayer and, and thinking, and so they're quite I've watched him his parents, they're like, better than we ever did with them. But But what a parent can do, I just was writing that I had a I had a kid who's in fifth grade, emailed me the other day, and as he asked me questions about identity, I said, Hey, that's really sweet of you. I recognizing that you rep me and I honor you. However, I can't counsel someone under 21 on email, like get your dad get your whatever. And then I talked to his dad, and I was just telling his Dad, look, here's some simple things you can do. The main thing is watch for negative emotion. negative emotion is the invitation to transformation. So when everything's fine, it's fine. You know, you're praying together, talking about Jesus, whatever. But when that negative emotion is expressed, the negative emotion is the invitation to address a lie that's being presented. That's when that's the beauty of negative emotion. Right? So so my youngest son comes home from school one day when he was in sixth seventh grade, super, super discouraged, frustrated now is younger than that anyways, young, and my wife sees I mean, he's got his head down, and she's like, what's, what's wrong? And he's like, ah, you know, like a boy. And she said, she waits for him. And then she says what happened and you He said, Well, you know, he had forgotten his Lodge. He went to the principal the principal called my wife she brings a lodge. Principal gives the lunch to the teacher the teacher takes into the classroom and makes fun of Caleb for being what are you a little baby? Your mommy's got to bring you lunch in front of the class. And it hurt his feel it shamed him. Right. So whatever the teacher, so he finally tells my wife that and she says, How did it make you feel? Because she gets a Oh, it's okay. You don't you shouldn't feel like that doesn't help him. How did it make you feel? He says it makes me made me feel stupid. How does it make you feel? It feels stupid. It makes me feel ashamed. Jesus. What do you want him to know about shame? And just let him teach them to go to the Lord with the true thing. I feel ashamed. And then he has, he has he just listened to the Lord with my wife sitting next to him. And this is what he says, You know what he goes, it's it's not that I feel stupid. It's that my teacher feels stupid. And that's why he did that. Because he feels stupid about something in his life. And then my wife said, Jesus, what do you want Caleb to know about his teacher? I feel sorry for him. There it is. Forgive ya. So what do you want to learn? How can I how can I help my teacher not feel stupid? And so it and then what do you say about Caleb? Caleb, I love you. You know, I love it that you're asking me. And so it energizes Caleb, then it he goes back in and he purposely tries to interact with the teacher to encourage him. So just a simple watch for the negative emotion, get, get his child learn how to say what it is. express it, and then go. What? Yeah, okay, so what do you what do you angry about? It made me feel afraid. Okay. What are you afraid of? That I'm not as smart as everybody else. That's what you want to go after? Not like Don't be angry, don't like, no, don't believe the lie that you're not as smart as everyone else. That's what you want to attack. Lord, what do you want to know about that right now? What do you want about not being smart? That's, that's what you want to get to. And you can just do that as a normal practice with kids. It's not a big you don't make a big deal about it. That's just a practice. And they pick it up. A so
Joshua Johnson:good. So helpful. I think we could learn that early. And walk through life, man, life would be better if we could get get to that place. So I wish we could do that. What is something one thing that you could tell the world that can help the world? What would you want the world to know? If they could just get it inside of them?
Jamie Winship:Yeah, I mean, I would say what the scripture says over and over again, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. What? You know, when Jesus after the resurrection, the disciples are locked in a room. And he comes in to them, he walks through the door, you know, into their fear right away. He doesn't, he walks through the locked door right into their fear. And the first thing he says to him is, don't be afraid. Peace, peace. He doesn't say get out what are you doing Hidin in this room, what's wrong with you? He comes in he says, Peace be upon you. And and then he breathes on the spirit. He doesn't read the spirit. And then says Peace. He says Peace. Because the peace allows them to receive allows him to. So that's what I would say to everyone is is perfect love casts out fear. If you live in fear, you don't understand perfect love. Right and perfect love casts out your fear. So, yeah, address your fear. Don't be afraid. Don't make fear based decisions. Our our whole foreign policy is based on fear based decisions every country is for That's why That's why we'll never have peace. Yes,
Joshua Johnson:well, we can get there someday, when we address the fear. And so let's address the fear. Jamie, thank you. This has been a fantastic conversation. Where would you like to point people to? Is there anything that you would like to tell people about
Jamie Winship:yet? Well, on our website, identity exchange.com. There's a lot of good material. There's the 21 days of free 21 day walk, they're just little short devotionals and exercises, for people struggling in depression. That's a great resource. There's other resources on there. So yeah, that website identity exchange.com.
Joshua Johnson:Perfect. Well, Jamie, thank you for this conversation. I really loved talking with you chatting with you to walk through this identity exchange, what does it look like to get rid of the lies that we have believed at an early age and that we have formed our identities around and then receiving the truth from God and community and then having some imagination of what the world could be and our lives could be in there. So it was fantastic. Loved it. Thank you so much.
