Shifting Culture
Shifting Culture
Ep. 276 Reward Sibanda - Why and How We Should Fast
My conversation with Reward Sibanda is a deep dive into the spiritual practice of fasting. Reward grew up immersed in fasting as a cultural and religious tradition in Zimbabwe. But it wasn't until later that he grasped the profound theological significance behind it. Fasting is about aligning our whole being - body, mind, and spirit - with the will and presence of God. It's not some outdated ritual, but a powerful spiritual discipline. When we fast, we quiet the noise of our physical appetites and mental chatter, allowing our spirit to ascend and commune with God. This realignment is what enables the kind of faith and prayer that Jesus says can move mountains. Fasting humbles our soul, elevates our spirit, and puts us in a posture to help with unbelief. Reward's insights challenge us to see fasting not as a chore, but as a gift God has given us. In an age of constant distraction and self-centeredness, fasting offers a way to reorient ourselves towards the holiness and mystery of God. It has the power to revive our souls, renew our minds, and cleanse our bodies. This is a conversation that just may change the way you approach your relationship with God. Reward lays out a compelling case for why fasting should be a regular part of the Christian life today. So join us as we learn why and how to fast.
Reward Sibanda is a Speaker, Author, Teaching Pastor at Saddleback Church, and Senior Director for National Church Partnerships, World Vision.
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But you know what's happening? You're being made and remade in the image of God. And I cannot think of this single thing that is as potent and powerful and as speedy in getting us to look more like Jesus and to communion with Him than fasting.
Unknown:You Hello and
Joshua Johnson:welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, my conversation with reward. Si Banda is a deep dive into the spiritual practice of fasting. Reward grew up immersed in fasting as a cultural and religious tradition in Zimbabwe, but it wasn't until later that he grasped the profound theological significance behind it. Fasting is about aligning our whole being, body, mind and spirit, with the will and presence of God. It's not some outdated ritual, but a powerful spiritual discipline. When we fast, we quiet the noise of our physical appetites and mental chatter, allowing our spirit to ascend and commune with God. This realignment is what enables the kind of faith and prayer that Jesus says can move mountains. Fasting humbles our soul and elevates our spirit and puts us in a posture to help with unbelief, rewards insights challenge us to see fasting, not as a chore, but as a gift God has given us in an age of constant distraction and self centeredness, fasting offers a way to reorient ourselves towards the holiness and mystery of God. It has the power to revive our souls, renew our minds and cleanse our bodies. This is a conversation that just may change the way you approach your relationship with God. Reward lays out a compelling case for why fasting should be a regular part of the Christian life today. So join us as we learn why and how to fast. Here is my conversation with reward. Sabanda, reward. Welcome to shifting culture. Thank you for joining me. Excited to jump into a fasting conversation today with you,
Unknown:absolutely thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. This
Joshua Johnson:is going to be a good conversation. I would love for you to introduce yourself a little bit to our audience and just talk about your childhood. Where did you grow up? Who are you? And where did Jesus fit into your childhood? Or where did you find Jesus?
Unknown:No, absolutely. Thank you. Yeah, so much once again, for for having me and and for for this opportunity. But my name is a reward. And obviously, you know, even though a lot of my formation happened in in the great state of Texas, in Dallas, Texas, but my origin story, the first 20 years of my life, was in global in Zimbabwe. So I was born and raised in Zimbabwe, and Christ was my cradling context. I was born into a Christian family, but not just that, like my parents were in ministry, right? They were grooming their children to be in ministry. Now, the beautiful thing about it is they didn't force a context, a ministerial context, on us. It was basically like, you're going to serve the Lord, right? Wherever you serve, wherever you end up, you're going to serve the Lord. And so some of us found ourselves in vocational ministry, and some of us found ourselves in marketplace ministry. I know that that's, you know, that's a, that's a false paradigm, wherever you are, right? Is ministry? But, yeah, that's, that's essentially where it all started.
Joshua Johnson:What was the predominant culture around you? What were the things that were forming you that may look a lot different than what typical western American culture looks like.
Unknown:I think the the the main difference, the primary difference between growing up in So, I am debele. So debele is essentially an offshoot of the Zulu Nation in South Africa. There was a migration and then develop settled in Zimbabwe. Basically there was a conquer. And then when colonization came, there was almost like a reversal of that power dynamic. So we are. There's two primary tribes, right? We are the second, basically, and then develop is stemming from the historical Zulus. If you know anything about Chaga Zulu in that particular thing, are in an ancient civilization. They're an actualized civilization, in a sense. And so there's a lot of things that, and I say that in contrast to what we see within the American context, where America is still a relatively anger civilization. So a lot of our relational dynamics are still utilitarian, right in nature, but in that particular thing, when a civilization has been around as long as ours has, what happens is people settle into the things that truly matter, and so the social becomes the center of everything that you essentially. So I grew up in a context where what you did, you did for the village, you did for the people, you did for your community, right? You were raised by the village. You were raised full contribution to the village. And so that was one of the most disorienting things, to be honest with you, that I encountered when I first got to the US, right? It was, it was individualistic, but it wasn't personal. I don't know if it makes sense. It people weren't being individualistic to further their own causes. No, the entire culture, the celebration of the culture, self actualization, was the highest form of of everything. So when you come from a highly communal context, and you're coming into right a, I don't want to say selfish, because that carries negative connotation, but a self centered, a self centric kind of civilization, it's a very jarring transition, and so that that's where I found myself when I first set foot in the US.
Joshua Johnson:So were there aspects of seminary and studying scripture in Texas that was then really rubbed against what you grew up with, and were there some interesting things of even Christian culture, and differences between Christian culture when you hit Texas? Yeah.
Unknown:Oh, absolutely, I think so, my first stop in the US was a seminary called Christ for the nations. It's in Dallas, right? It's mission focused, it's mission centric, but it's still right to the first year. For some people, the first two years are just a solid theological foundation and backdrop, and then afterwards, it kind of shifts to a missional expression of everything that you essentially learned. And the first thing, if I could put it this way, the first thing that I learned, which I was like, oh, that's why, is when somebody from an Asian context, whether it's Middle Eastern or or Asian, right, or even African comes into a a Western seminary, right? It's almost like there's a reversal. And what I mean by that is it's, if you're from a Western context, going to seminary, you learn how to live, right, how specific things happen, how the Bible and theology essentially speak to your sociology. When you come from those older contexts, right? You learn the why? Because a lot of the values the Bible has given to us as a gift contextualized in an ancient and gregarious culture, in a context. So when I come into seminary and I'm learning things, I'm going, so that's why we do this, right? As opposed to when we're in a western context and you're in seminary, you're going, Oh, so this is how we do this. So in the West, you're learning the context and the theolog and the theology superimposed on the context. But when you're coming from an ancient culture civilization, you're learning, basically, it's the it's the theology superimposed on the sociology. And so that was the beautiful reversal that I kind of saw. And it was, it was pretty interesting. That
Joshua Johnson:is interesting. That's That's fascinating to be able to come from a different perspective and say, Oh, we've been living this way, and we've been through some of these things, and here's the theology behind it and why that's fascinating, and exactly part of it. And
Unknown:the cool thing, Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to No, go ahead. Sorry. And I think the cool thing about it is so many times, even with some of my friends in seminary, they're like, you know, you see this? You know what the Bible says we have to take care of our neighbors. Wow, that's the epiphany. And I'm quick, are you kidding me? You heard that is survival 101, you know. But now I'm like, oh yeah. So it was, it was kind of funny in that way to for sure, yeah,
Joshua Johnson:where did the Where did fasting come in and your practice to follow Jesus. I know that you grew up there was a cultural fasting, and that was part of the culture of fasting. But where did this, this following Jesus, practice of fasting come into your own life? No,
Unknown:it's so funny, because I think I kind of mentioned it in the book. So a lot of Middle Eastern, right? A lot of Asian, a lot of these other the older contexts, a lot of what we call the practices and the discipleship to Jesus are things which, to them, are not even necessarily spiritual at all. They're cultural. You are taught those particular things. So coming I mentioned this in the book, but my mother is came from, or is a descendant of this tribe called the Lamba tribe, and this lembas have a claim to basically a lineage drawing from the 12 tribes of Israel. And so a lot of the practices that they have at a base level, never having cracked open the Bible, have. Very similar to what you get like in the Bible in that particular context. Now that say how specialized my particular context was, but you'll notice for a lot of those older contexts, they believe that there is a fundamental belief that man is spirit first, and man being spirit means that there's a higher force and a higher connectivity and a higher awareness of the spiritual realm. And that's why, for example, in a lot of spaces, prayer, in whatever context, might not necessarily be to God, but a communing with the Divine is culturally ingrained into people and into kids as they grow up. So for me, coming back full circle, fasting was a social and a cultural undertaking. It's only later that we're like, oh, okay, the roots are spiritual, which the roots of everything are essentially spirit. But we fasted because primarily it was a it was a caliber, a recalibrated, calibrated practice. It's after you've been eating a bad habit, or after getting over a cold or a sickness or whatever it was, the prescribed way that your body reset itself. It was mellowing. It was a grounding. That's the word for it. Fasting is a grounding practice, independent of the spiritual benefits of what it is. So it's one of those things that now, when I came into a context of actualization within the faith in particular. That's when I was like, Oh, so this is why we have those practices, but they were taught to us almost religiously, if I can kind of say that. So I grew up fasting because that's what we did. I hated because that's what we did. And it wasn't until I gained right the knowledge and the understanding that I thank the Lord and just the serendipity of his purpose, the fact that he will train us in particular things, and we don't even know why we're acquiring the skills and why we're but then later on, we're like, Oh, my goodness, a lot of people in modern context are like, Man, I never grew up fasting. I didn't even know there was a case where I thought it was elective, but for some of us that were forced into it, now we're thank the wisdom of God and our bringing in the gift of our context and going we were doing this before we even knew why we were so the why is just a beautiful bonus, right? So
Joshua Johnson:let's get into some of the Why then, and what is the wisdom of God within fasting, and why is it a a practice that we should enter into?
Unknown:No, absolutely. If I may just go into like a just a quick, I call it a teaching, but to me, this is how it helped me kind of understand the spiritual aspect of fasting, and it's all grounded on this basic premise. When I learned this, it blew the entire scripture wide open, because not only did I understand it, but it gave me the language and the handles to essentially teach it right? In the book of Genesis and my entire rant, let me call it a rant, right? It hinges on this simple premise, right? God is the cause where the effect, the effect always mirrors the cause, Genesis, 126, Let us make man in our image and according to our likeness, and then the assignment let them have dominion. So we find that what is essentially true about the core makeup of humanity, we can find its roots in in God, right, in the triune being right that we essentially call God. So why is this important? So in our basic makeup, man is what we call a tripartite three part being. Man is spirit, man is soul, man is body. You see it all over the Bible, like Paul talks about it in the Old Testament and everything. And it makes sense, right? The reason that when I die, the body doesn't disappear, because the essence of who I am is disconnected from this, right? But we have so that tripartite makeup is we have the spirit, that part that comes from God. When He breathes his spirit, he breathes, that is why we're eternal beings, because we have the Spirit of God made in the image of an eternal God. Then there's the body, right? All of our melanin, the earth suit that gives us agency in in in the universe and in the earth, we know what the body is, right? That's why you look the way you know they do, and I look the way that that I do. And then there's the soul, which I think is the most interesting. So the soul is the Center for our self consciousness, it's our mind, it's our will, it's our emotion. I mean, there's scriptural reference for all of this. I don't have time to really get into it, but, yeah, it's all in the book. So we are spirit, we are soul, and we are body, right? And man is an amalgam of those three. I call them faculties. You can call them essentially, whatever gives you understanding what that essentially looks like. Now, when you get that as the key, right, as the heads up display, it begins to open the Bible in beautiful ways, because every spiritual practice that we see in the Bible has a corresponding faculty to it in the same way that when you look at our body different receptors or faculties, right only. Respond to specific stimuli. For example, light right the way we see is because light comes into our eyes and essentially goes, you know, the whole process, the whole biological process of how we see. But if there's no light, there's no seeing, why is because the stimulus of light has entered right the faculty of my eye, if you shine a light in my ear. You know what I'm saying? There is nothing essentially happens. But in the same way, sound is for the stimulus of sound is for the faculty of the ear, right? The stimulus of Smell, smell particles is for the faculty of the nose. So in the exact same way, you begin to notice that when the Bible talks about spiritual practices, right, it will always pair it with a corresponding faculty for what that particular thing is for. For example, whenever you see the word prayer, prayer will always be matched to the Spirit. My spirit prays. Paul says, By understanding is unfruitful. You see what I'm saying. So whenever you look at prayer, it's always the spirit praying. Why is that? Well, it makes sense, because if we're spirit beings, and God is spirit and prayers, communication and communion, then it's Spirit to spirit, right? When we look at worship, you will notice this, like, raise your hands in worship. The body is the prime modality in the prime faculty for worship. Now, when we look at every time fasting, for example, is mentioned, it will always be directly connected to the soul. David says, When I humbled my soul with fasting, right? And so many times it's like when they're talking about it in the Bible, like even the people, the children of Israel, like they said, when we humbled and afflicted our souls, you will never see the the stimulus, let me call it, or the practice of fasting, coupled with the spirit or coupled with the body. But fasting is fascinating because it's actually, I believe, and I've done some research, it's the only practice that touches all of those three, and it's going to be important, as this conversation kind of goes so what fasting is, in a sense, David kind of clues us into how fasting works. Fasting never works independent of prayer, because fasting is a practice that is there to help with prayer. So what happens is, as we're raised up, right back and forth and everything our soul is shaped by the norms and the mores and the culture and all of those things around us. It's our personality essentially, right? But what happens is that soul becomes stronger and stronger as it sees things, and those things are reinforced by the things we see, by the things we believe in, all of those things, so much so that it's a game of ascendancy, that whenever we pray, most of the times we pray based on our understanding and then things that we see. And when prayer should be an aspect of the Spirit, we then essentially tell the Spirit what it can pray based on what we know is possible. So what fasting does is it humbles the soul. You see what I'm saying, so that when you're in a state of fasting, the Spirit comes into a state of ascendancy. And that's why, when people are fasting, they say, I can hear God more I have more faith. I have more grace for prayer. So that is the fundamental difference between fasting. That is its main utility. What it does is that's why so many times when people will fast to humble themselves before the Lord. It humbles our soul. It humbles our ego. It humbles everything that we know right that is antithetical, in a sense, to the plans and the purposes of God. So fasting is such a powerful and recalibrating thing, because what it does is it positions our spirit to do the business that it needs to do with God.
Joshua Johnson:That's fascinating. That's a beautiful image of humbling our soul and having the spirit ascend to the place that it needs to and with God, yeah? So then take us into the the story of disciples trying to cast out a demon, yeah? Jesus saying that, you know, this doesn't come out except through prayer. Man, thank
Unknown:you. Thank you so much. No, absolutely, I believe that is the case study. You know how every you know what I'm saying, every particular premise or whatever has a case study. That one is very interesting, because if you don't pay attention to the cultural and the linguistic nuance of that particular language. See Zulu, the language that I speak right is very much like, like, like, Aramaic or or Hebrew, or even Greek, right? All the languages. And why do I say that? Because there are no more mature languages. I say this in the book as well Joshua, it's, I believe language right is primarily for communication. That's what it is. That's where we start. That's its rudimentary function. But when we evolve in intimacy and in knowing ourselves, then language becomes a modality for communion, right? So in its matured state, it's more about communion than communication. So when your culture. Is younger, you are selfish by nature, because you're still building a civilization. Therefore your language is very direct, right? The line between understanding and execution is extremely short, because, hey, we got a civilization to build. But as you build your civilization, and as you mature, more than the language itself evolves, because now it's about communion, right? Then a lot of the meaning is in the nuance of that, what that particular looks like. So so many times with that ethnocentric lens, we miss a lot of things if we interpret the Bible from a lens of utility, because we're constantly looking for what we should do when the Bible was written from a God of communion, right given to us in a context, a cultural context of communion, so that we could decode it as people of communion, and there's no utility at all In the Bible and in our interpretation and consequent expression of that Bible, the incarnation of living out of what the Bible essentially talks about. So why is this important? When we read that particular parable right through an ethnocentric lens, a lens based on a Western utilitarian mindset, we miss a lot of the new ones and the gold the riches are in the niches. So let's go back to that particular story. So the by the disciples fail to cast this particular demon out, and other parts of the narrative, this particular narrative, the narrative that gives us the nugget, is in in the book of Matthew But everything else, all the other gospels essentially give us the nuance that's important joy. When we put it together, line upon line, precept upon precept, we get what's happening. So what was happening? They bring this child with data, with raw fact, right? They're like he has from the time he was born. There is a spirit. There's a demon on the inside of him. It throws him in the fire, and it throws him in the water, and he wants to destroy him. So the reality that the Father has, the mother has, the community has, it's how powerful and destructive and out of, you know, a crazy this, this particular thing is. So the bring it to the disciples, and in that particular moment, there's even a show to where it throws the child down, and he phones it and throws at the mouth and everything. Now, if you're watching this, can you guess what happens to your faith? I mean, they're like, all we know is this is how powerful this thing is. I mean, they're literally just worshiping this thing, right? It's like, from the time it's established, this is what it does. It tries to destroy him. And in that moment, I feel like the disciples headed crisis or faith, and it's proved not Jesus kind of says, and they're like, man, we can't do this. We need Jesus. We need Jesus right now, because this thing is too powerful. And the moment that happens, do you know what happens their soul? What is the soul again? Center of your self consciousness, their self consciousness is elevated. There is facts to why they cannot do this particular thing. And in that particular moment they call fall into what is called disbelief, right? Let's suspend that for a second. So Jesus comes into onto the scene, and basically he asked some questions, how long has this been happening? It's like whatever it is. And then he says, And Jesus rebukes the Spirit. Remember, it was a spirit that was causing this particular affliction. And it goes so later on, right? They come Nico demon style. They're like, Why could we not cast this demon out? Now let's go into some linguistic language here to essentially speak to understanding. Why could we not cast the demon out? What is the subject? What are they talking about? The demon? Exactly. The subject is the demon, right? Hang with me, it's important. So Jesus says you could not cast the demon out because of your unbelief. The word they peace this faith, the word for faith is pistis. Our pistis means a specific type of thing. So Jesus says it's because of your unbelief. The moment. He says, what it's because guess what happens. What is the subject from that moment? Moving forward, yeah, should be unbelief, exactly. It's not the demon anymore, because the demon is just a consequence of their unbelief. They came and asked him, Why could we not cast it out? He says, you couldn't, because of your unbelief. So when they came, the subject was the demon. Jesus shifts the subject and says, it's your unbelief. And then he goes on to say, Hey, I tell you that if you have faith, he's talking about faith. Now here's something to for us to understand. The antithesis of faith is not doubt. The antithesis of faith is unbelief. Faith is pissed. Unbelief is a pistis. Doubt is something else. Doubt is essentially going well, it may happen, it may not happen. I don't know if we're to put it in modern terms. Doubt is is agnostic. It's like, well, it may happen, it may not happen. There. Nothing wrong with doubt, but unbelief, ah, pissed this. It's a negative type of faith. It's a faith, but it is a faith that the opposite will happen. So what unbelief is in this particular context, unbelief is not saying, well, the demon may not unbelief is a conviction that the demon will not come out. What's the danger in this? We know that everything that we get in the faith and from God is from faith when you believe something right. That is faith is the substance of the things that we hope for. How many times throughout count? How many times throughout the Gospels? Jesus says, may it be according to your faith, if you believe, I don't have to make a case for faith. When you have faith, you get things work well. If it's a principle in the Spirit, then the opposite is also true. You see what I'm saying. If you are genuinely convinced, if you use your faith to believe, this thing will not happen. It will not happen. So therefore, this quagmire, this stalemate that they find themselves in is because they stepped into a space of unbelief, and the faith that they should be using to believe that God can do it is now anchored on the fact that they cannot cast this particular demon out. So Jesus then says, Hey, I tell you you cannot do this because of your unbelief, your faith is activated and centered and still potent in the wrong thing, therefore that is now your actualized reality. So he goes on to say, it's because of your unbelief. I tell you that if you have faith, the faith of a mustard seed. He doesn't say size, right? That's a wrong translation there. And some some translations render that says the faith of the caliber of a mastered seed, right? There are scientific things. What about the mastered seed? The mastered seed is the smallest, right seed to tree ratio. It was up until really recently. It was the only seed that could not be genetically modified. So it was talking to something that is small and potent, because all you need is basically the faith to believe in the Son of God, right? And that's how you work. The works of God, essentially why they they answered it. So he says, if you have this faith, you can say to this mountain be removed and it will be cast into the sea, right? However. So what is the con the subject, the subject is still unbelief. He hasn't changed it back right in basic linguistics, in basic grammar, if he has to once again talk about the demon, he has to revert the subject back to the demon. Otherwise, he's speaking out of context. And then he goes on to say, is however. Now that however is a conjunction, right? It's essentially joining two particular things and not every version. Back to what he says. Says, however, this type does not go out except through prayer and fasting. This type of one brother, unbelief, unbelief, exactly this type of unbelief, because the demon is inconsequential. It's the unbelief that's the problem. So he says, however, this type of unbelief does not go out, except through prayer and fasting, but most cases, in our generic and basic understanding, and have done a lot of surveys, people think and assume he's still talking about the demon. Why is that? Because linguistically does not go out is consistent with exorcism language, right? So they think that it's talking about a spirit, because in exorcism language, when we're talking about something going out, we're talking about his spirit. But unbelief, at its core is in itself, a spirit that is rooted in our thought processes. You see what I'm saying. So then the question if we genuinely believe that he's talking about unbelief, then the question becomes, then, what does prayer and fasting have to do with unbelief? And this is the beauty of where fasting comes in from a theological perspective. See, remember, what fasting does is it humbles the soul. What is the soul in this moment, their soul is what is convinced. Their faith is hinged on they have the facts. They've got the receipt that this thing will not happen. So their soul is up there and their spirit is up there. Now the Spirit has no problem connecting with the things of God and the supernatural, because it comes from that realm. So now, when they're praying, it's no longer a prayer of faith which makes great power possible, right? So now in their thing, so now what they need is a practice or a device, or a doohickey, you know, or thingamajig, whatever you want to call it, that is to bring the things that they know about, the impossible, down their soul, their convictions, their emotions, all of those things up here it needs to be down here, so the spirit can come into a place of Ascendance, and there begin to transact at the level of the impossible. So that's why you, first of all, you will never see fasting independent of prayer and fasting. And a lot of times there's not a lot of teaching and fasting, because it was assumed that people understood that prayer and fasting go to. Together. So that's essentially how fasting works. The primary method and modality and utility of fasting is it brings our soul into subjection and therefore allowing our spirit. That's why, when you fast, there's a grace to pray. There's never a grace to fast, but there's always a grace to pray when you're fasting, right? Because then all the things we're just saying, this is boring. Am I making sense? I don't think the sickness is going to go all of those things are muted and mitigated. And now the spirit which goes with I come from a realm where all things are possible. I know God can heal this. And when we pray from prayer and fasting, we can then pray the prayer of faith, and we can get the things that we essentially ask for. So as long as we do not come back to a place of prayer and fasting, our prayers of faith will be hit or miss, and so we can never testify with conviction, right, that God can do the impossible because it's it's hit or miss. It depends on how my faith is in all of those things. And the reason, and the final thing I'll say to this is the reason it's such a dangerous theologist, not just a misnomer, but it's such a dangerous not theology, but interpretation of theology is because if we think that we have to fast more and pray more in order to to exercise specific demons, then we fall into a works based right theology, which takes away from the power of Christ. And the last thing I'll say about this, when you look throughout the Bible, right in the in the Greek, there are four expressions or iterations or types of power. There's dunamis, there's exousia, there's iskus and there's Kratos, right? Let me focus on dunamis and exude and exusia, because that's what we see a lot of in when Jesus was looking exousia literally means authority, and casting out demons is a function of authority, because God, Jesus gives us the authority right to do these things, and they are subject to US based on the delegated authority that we find from Jesus. Now, whenever you see those things, like when he talks about virtue, that is dunamis. So a lot of the miracles that Jesus did had you with dunamis. And dunamis can actually that's where in the book of Jude it says, Hey, building yourself up in the most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit. So dunamis can be cranked up. It can ebb and flow. That's why Jesus would pray, and a miracle would happen. He could feel that virtue or dunamis had gone out of him. But exousia is never that way, because it's delegated authority, and you will never and demons will never be exercised or come out through dunamis. It's always through exousia. So if prayer and fasting generate dunamis, but casting out devils is a function of exousia. So that's another, the main reason why he was talking about authority and not necessarily that. I don't know if that makes
Joshua Johnson:sense. Yeah, that makes sense. I think this is, this is great and fascinating. So the spiritual practice of fasting is important, and it's tied to prayer, and we need to make sure that they're both tied to prayer. I think one of the reasons why parts of the church don't recognize fasting as a practice that should be done now is they have seen it as a workspace practice. That's right. It is my works that I'm trying to muster up enough faith out of my own work, which got correct fasting work correct, get power or to do these things. So how is it not just a workspace practice? How is it this practice that actually humbles ourselves and gets rid of our ego and our pride and it elevates the spirit? And it's not just workspace of saying I am more powerful because of what I do? Yeah,
Unknown:well, I think even in you just kind of saying that the crazy thing about fasting is it is such a cleansing process right to where, even if you come with that, which is one of the things, whenever people are like, how do I start fasting? I'm like, find the most selfish reason ever and go there, because the first thing that gets cleansed is the wrong motives. So when you come in right like the word and and worship in the spirit and the entire process of fasting, not just what it does in the body, which is incredible, but even in the Spirit, all of a sudden, all these things start coming out of you, and you're like, oh my gosh, I feel more unspiritual now that I'm fasting good, because what's happening is in the same process, the olden day process of purification, all the impurities are rising to the top, right? And then he is just like when they come up in faster when something comes up, you submit it to the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus, right? And that through that particular thing. And then. He deals with it, and the next thing comes up, and it does all of those things. So, so what it is is, yes, the inception of it, like running a marathon, like prayer, it's labor. It's always labor right on. Because here's the thing that people miss, and I don't remember who said this, but it was so important. They said, um, God is never against the works, just striving. It's when we strive that there is a fundamental problem with it. But remember, it's like falling in love. Intimacy leads to more work, right? I had to work to get my wife, and you know what? The moment she said, I do and we logged it in and got the government involved, I would be an idiot to think the work stopped there. As a matter of fact, it started there, right? And it goes on now we're parents. It's more works, right? It's all of these particular things, but it's love based labor, and therefore it essentially makes sense, right? That's why the Bible talks about how those are labor in prayers, it's labor. Fasting is labor. I feel like our generation needs to be disenfranchised from this theology, right where we don't essentially find the holy in the heart. Once more, we have to come to terms with the theology of suffering. It is the only thing that is guaranteed when we say yes to who God is. So in that particular thing, it's gonna be work. It's gonna suck. Your body is going through an active death, and so is your spirit, and so is your soul. So it's this, the consistent state of discombobulation. But you know what's happening? You're being made and remade in the image of God. And I cannot think of this single thing that is as potent and powerful and as speedy in getting us to look more like Jesus and to communicate with him than fasting. We fast. Our soul is in a is in a place of recidivism, basically. And so our spirit connects with him. And when our spirit connects with him, when our spirit beholds him, when we commune Spirit to spirit, anything which is inconsistent with his nature, with his heart, with his will and with with his design, just begins to fall away. And in that particular place, it's, it's incredible, yeah, yeah,
Joshua Johnson:that's beautiful to see. What, what happens with the soul and the spirit through fasting, but then what also what happens with the body?
Unknown:Yeah, oh, man. See, most of the times the people right, because we're because of the discomfort, right? We always want the crown without the cross. It's, it's just a mark of immaturity. You're right. All of us it to some point, are immature. So most people will say, because, remember, fasting is spirit, soul and body touches, all of those. So So many times we can essentially customize and say what's happening to my spirit is consecration. So sometimes people gonna be like, well, I can fast specific things, which I know are a rub on my consecration, and they use the word fast operatively. And so that's why so many people like, well, I don't think I have to fast food specifically, necessarily, because whenever I fast from Netflix and TV and all those things, I still feel closer to God. Well, yes, you do, because you are tapping into the consecration aspect of it. But when God gave us fasting, he gave it to us as a total gift. It's like fruit, right? You can juice and enjoy the juice. But also the, you know what I'm saying, the fiber is good for you. It's all good for you. So what happens with the body? Man, well, that's incredible, is when you fast, first of all, the thing to understand, just a really quick thing about the body's the body's a machine, and every machine runs on fuel. So for us, the fuel is the food that we ingest when we take in food, right? The body, essentially, as simply as I can, breaks down that food and stores it for a rainy day. I'm not wanting to get into the into the science of whatever that essentially looks like, so. But what happens is, because of the 24 hour eating cycle that came about as the evolution of the steel mill. Now, basically, when we're given this, the Paleo ethical the olden day man, right, could essentially quote was not what was in. Gene was engineered for feast and famine. Let me put it that way, right, you had to do your catch. You to kill a cow. So there were longer periods between eating, which always gave the body time to digest, and, you know, take what it needs to store, what it needs to and eat it. And our physiology was optimized. But then we invent the steel mill, so now we have a 24 hour eating cycle, and most of the things are processed, which means the body has no frame of reference on where to do and what to do and what to put with all those things, which, by the way, is the reason that now we need eight hours of sleep, but when you water fast, you see that it resets your entire system, and you need between four or five hours of sleep, no matter how tired you are. When you sleep for five hours, after five hours, you're awake and your mind is alert. Why? Because it's reset it to that but we never need to sleep that long, because why we sleep? Sleep as long is because that's where the body goes into rest. And when the body goes into rest, that's when our body begins to triage nutrients and where to put things and where to put that. So if our diet is horrible, we have a hard time falling asleep, and we sleep super long, and we never really hit that point of rest. So what fasting does is, when you stop ingesting, when you stop taking in food, right? Basically, your body tries to jump start, you to kind of get going and everything. And when it doesn't, your insulin essentially drops. Okay, I'm gonna dive a little bit into the into the, the geeky lingo. And when it dives, it tells the body, then it's like, Okay, now it's time, first of all, to to burn the glucose or the glycogen. Now it's time to release the fat, and the fat goes to the liver, and then it's converted into ketones, and now your body switches to a different energy source. Now, at the release of those ketones, ketones are also hunger suppressants, so that means, when you're fasting, let's say 14 days on just water, you will only feel hunger for the first one, two or three days max, based on your particular diet. After that point, what happens is your body shifts fuel sources, and it begins to burn ketones. And so ketones are clean up burn. That's why you have that clarity of mind, which Pythagoras and and all of those, and everybody that fast, essentially, kind of sees there's an optimized cognition, because the clean and burn, but beyond then, that's why you have more sustained energy, and you don't have highs and lows and crashes, because ketones, once again, I clean and burn. It's consistent, and so is your energy. But the moment that happens, ketones are released their hunger suppressants, your body goes into what you call a state of ketosis, right? And in that particular ketosis, so every single time, it starts to burn fat for energy, and now you don't need to eat anymore. Now your mind is still trying to get you to eat, because the survival mechanism has been done that until you get to about day 10 to he accepts the new norm, and it just begins to burn ketones. Now, the most beautiful process that happens in tandem with ketosis is this thing that you call autophagy. And basically, autophagy is when your body begins to burn like cancerous growths and redundant proteins and dead cells and all the mess that's in our body, right? It begins to burn that for fuel as well. That's why you get cleaner skin, and that's why you get all of this things, and that's why, when you look at the science, people talk about how fasting drastically decreases cancer and everything. Why? Because your body essentially cleans everything. The same principle, the underlying principle behind fasting, is Sabbath, and Sabbath, we see this in agriculture to where the Lord demands that there be a fallowing of the ground so it can regain its nutrients and everything. It's the principle of the Sabbath. It's the principle of rest. So that's what happens to your body when you water fast, and when you do it for extended periods of time.
Joshua Johnson:So water fasting is like a Sabbath for your body, which is fantastic. Entering into Sabbath. I think Sabbath is pretty it's revolutionary. Thank God that he set that up, that we need to do that actually set it up for our body as well, and not
Unknown:oh my gosh, rest. Yeah. And, you know, it's so funny. I have a whole like sub sub chapter in the book dedicated to Sabbath, because the same God when God had to transpose his law on humanity, right? What is it? Don't kill, right? We know how important that is, right? Don't steal. We know what that does to the social fabric. We know how and out of all of those particular things, he added the Sabbath, and he was so serious about the Sabbath that when you go back to the Olden laws, it says people who would violate the Sabbath could be put to death. We know because it became a thorn in the side of Jesus and the kingdom work. How seriously people took the Sabbath. It's encoded into how we're supposed into the earth, everything rests, and all of those kinds of things. So you are right. Like the Sabbath is central. It's so important to God because a lot of the recreation he creates, and then he rests, then a lot of the recreation happens from that place, in that state of rest. So yes, the Sabbath is is foundational and fundamental, for sure. So
Joshua Johnson:if people are listening to this conversation and they're encouraged to enter into a fast, which I think I don't know if anybody who's listening wouldn't be encouraged to enter into a fast. Pretty amazing to say this is what's actually happening. Yeah. What do you recommend? How like do we do a one day fast? Do we do a three day fast? 721, water, fast. What does it look like? What do you recommend people to enter into?
Unknown:There we go. So there's what I recommend, but then there's the different lengths of a fast, and the lengths are determined by utility. So first of all, the first thing that I'm going to say is fasting is food. You don't fast TV, you don't fast social media. You. Now you can use the word operatively, but that is not a heaven or eternity recognized fast at all. Fasting is basically when you close your mouth right from particular food, and all the benefits essentially come from that. Now, that's what fasting is. Now, there's different origins for fasting. What I mean by that is there are fast to where the Holy Spirit is one that initiates a fast. He invites you into a fast for His purpose. That was my first 21 day fast. It was an invitation, right? There are also corporate fast where you're out here, Josh, and you're living your best life, and you show up to church and man your faster. Your pastor has just read that how to fast book like all right? All of us are fasting for 21 days. Well, your spiritual authority has essentially mandated what that essential fast looks like. We see this even with the children of Israel, to where the king or the priest or the prophet would essentially say, this is how long you should fast and all of those particular things, right? But that was essentially based on utility. So there's them, and then there's a fast way. You're just like, I've been traveling up on the road. I've been eating trash. I've been in Texas barbecue and drinking Dr Pepper and sweet tea. Come on somebody, you got to love the South, right? And you just like my I can feel it. I need something to cleanse myself. So then you enter into a fast. So those are the three essential utility for when it comes through a fast, but those are what determines, most of the time, the length of the fast. What I mean by that is, if you want, if you're fasting for a detox, right, seven days is where the processes are optimized. And beyond seven days, they just get deeper. So if you're like, I need to lose weight, then obviously that's a 14 day or more fast. You see what I'm saying? Because at seven, that's when you're burning the more so the longer you go, the more weight you lose, right? That's what I'm talking about. So if you're like, I need to reset my body. I just feel my physiologies off, right? That's a seven day fast. It's a quick in and out and everything. If the Holy Spirit is one that's inviting you into a fast, and he determines how long that fast is, right? And your role in that particular fast is to obey. Now, what I always say is, um, and then it's so those are essentially the three things, but then the type of a fast, because, remember, there's, like, a total water fast. This is what I've been talking about. But sometimes, right, they're fast, like when you look at Yom Kippur, like one day fast to where, from sunrise, right to sunset, or some sun, whatever it looks like, a 24 hour fast to where it's like, if it's an elongated fast, where you eat one meal a day, which is very like intermittent fasting, or whatever it is. So for me, what I would recommend to people is, if you're fasting for breakthrough, if you need God to move in your life, then do the it could be six to six, but do the one meal a day. Why is that? Because you're going to need the energy to pray. You're going to need the energy to focus, to push in right, to do all of the effective fervent prayer makes great power available of the righteous. That's when you're seeking something. Is anyone sick? That's when you seek an answer. Then do a one meal, because you're going to need the energy to really press in and push in and pray for an answer. If you're fasting for clarity, then you're going to need a total fast, right? And you don't start like clarity. I just need to hear the Lord. I need to write. I need a divine idea. That's how Pythagoras used to fast. He would fast for clarity. And everybody that would come into his classes, everybody that wanted to study under him, had to fast so that they could have what he called enlightened perspectives on how to engage mathematically and all of those particular things. So if you need clarity, then seven, then no, sorry, then you you fast until the clarity hits. And that's based on your prior lifestyle, right? And all of those things. But if you're fasting because you need to hear God and you need your spirit and everything, then once again, you fast until everything in you quiets down. It's optimized for some people, that's day seven. For some people, day eight. But when you're fasting, your body goes through all this turbulence, but you're going to notice, you're going to clear, kind of like when you're going up, when a flight in a storm, there's turbulence, and then you clear that particular stratosphere, and then all of a sudden, it's beautiful, it's clear and everything. That's what it essentially feels like when you're fasting. So I think it's one of those things to where, who initiated the fast, right? Why are you fasting? And then the why and the initiation will determine what type of fast, and what type of fast will determine the longevity of the fast.
Joshua Johnson:So do you, what do you recommend with to do it by yourself, or to do it in community? And what are the benefits of doing it in community?
Unknown:Oh, absolutely, community. Here's the thing, everything that the Lord gave us right, gave us to be initiated in solitude, but optimized and enjoyed in community. Why is that? Look at prayer, right? I mean, you could pray at home by yourself, but when you go to church. You see what I'm saying, the benefits are optimized. Because there's something made in the image of a communal God. There's something that's optimized when we are when we're in community, there's accountability. It's the body. You bring something that I don't have, I don't bring some I bring something that you don't have, and it's optimized. It's the exact same way prayer, like fasting, is a practice that was gifted to us. So yes, you can fast alone, and sometimes the Lord will call you into solitude and fasting, as he sometimes does with solitude in prayer, but primarily, you get the highest benefits when you fast with other people, because then you can encourage each other, right? You can whatever you're going through. You can strengthen each other. You can share experiences. You can share what God is saying, and you always leave more strengthened with that. So the practice, the daily practice, right instituted in solitude, but the corporate fast, the solemn assemblies, as the Bible would say, it's most optimized and most potent when done in and with community. And I'll say this, I said in a book as well. And I'll say this, I have broken many solitude fasts, right to where I started to fast, and I'm like, Man, I broke. I slipped up. You know, I had a whole steak. It was a mistake. I didn't realize I was eating it till I was done all of those things. I've broken a lot of personal fast. I have never broken a communal fast, because the level of accountability and that comes with it. So yeah, that's what I'd recommend. That's
Joshua Johnson:so good. A couple quick questions here at reward at the end. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?
Unknown:Basically, it'd be more of an epiphany than that. It's like you're probably going to be 20 years from now, you're probably still gonna hate fasting, right? I don't think you're ever gonna get used to it and you ever love it, but you are going to have such a profound appreciation that by God's grace, you're gonna be the greatest champion for what it is. I genuinely believe, Josh, that we cannot do the works of God in this generation, without a devotion and a return to fasting, because fasting is foundational to power. And what is power? Right is that it's the gospel. I'm not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God without power, our Gospel uses relevance, because at its heart, at its core, the gospel is the good news of solutions. If I'm sick, the good news is that Jesus loves you. He loves me so much he wants to prove it by healing you. And when we can stretch out our hands and do what the disciples did and the apostles did, then a generation will cut, will flood to who we are, because they will know that we have the solutions that they essentially need. Right? That's why Jesus was like, forget the theology of whether I'm the Messiah or not, right? The works that I do, let them speak for me. So that's what I would say to Matt, but like, I would wish he understood fasting and the power of it and the call to it sooner, not so that can be easier. So you can love it or like it or enjoy it, but be so you can appreciate it and get a generation fasting as quickly as possible.
Joshua Johnson:Amazing. So good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend a
Unknown:couple of my friends just came out with books. JP, Jonathan bakuda, he just came with your story has a villain. It's a phenomenal read. Just on on Spiritual Warfare. And Tyler Staton, he just, I mean, I called him a prayer Jedi, he just came with a book the familiar stranger, which talks about the power of the Holy Spirit. So I love how in this particular things, I love when, when, when contemporary, modern day voices what begin to turn a generation to the wisdom of the just we're back to the ancient paths. And they get all of those things. So those are two books I would recommend. They're so timely, so powerful, so anointed. And, yeah, get them now. Great.
Joshua Johnson:And how can people get your book how to fast? And how could people just go out and buy a bunch of boxes of how to fast, do some passing together, like, where could people go get it? And where else would you like to point people to?
Unknown:Absolutely, man, I have, I have phenomenal publishing out water Brook and Multnomah, so they made sure that it's available every so wherever books are sold, Walmart target, Amazon books, a million audio book is out. So ever books are sold, search it online, wherever, and you'll find a modality. And please what this man says, buy a box and give it out. And, yeah, let's get a generation back to fasting. That's
Joshua Johnson:right, if you could call call this generation to something now, what do you want to say to the body of Christ? What do you want to say, to call us towards today, in this day and age,
Unknown:yes, I feel like it is not an indictment. It's more like what the Lord has been dealing with me and I see the proof generationally. And we have become a carnal generation. We have become people who are more moved by our feelings and what we understand than people who are in awe of. The mystery of God and in servitude to His will and His way above all else. And I truly believe the primary call was a call to priesthood, right and kingship. When God created us, He called us to priesthood. And the culture of priesthood is a culture of holiness. We need to call it generational, back to holiness. And that's why, when I believe, when the Lord called me to fasting, it was a call to realize that the way that our souls, our minds, our will, our emotions, that have been taken by everything else that chokes out the productivity of the Word of God has to once again come become submitted to His Lordship. And so I would say, build into your daily cadence like the priest, a lifestyle of prayer and worship, and build into your weekly cadence and lifestyle of fasting. Because it's only when we're truly people who live as priests, right according to the culture of holiness, that our generation can look and go, hey, they have what we do not have. So that's what's burning in my heart. It's a call back to priesthood and holiness, using the practices that God has so generously and lavishly blessed us with, like prayer, fasting, worship and anchoring ourselves in our lives in His Word, amen, amen.
Joshua Johnson:Thank you, reward and thank you for this conversation. It was fascinating to go into the spiritual benefits of fasting, why we do it, why God has actually set this up for us, why it's a place of Sabbath and rest for our body, of a reset for our body, that we could actually lower our soul into a place of humility so that the Spirit can ascend and we could actually communicate and commune with God, Spirit to spirit, in that that place that our disbelief can actually move into belief and faith in this process. And it was fascinating and a thing. And I think hopefully people have heard the call to enter into to fasting and to fast, because I think what you've done in this book, and what you've done in my in the conversation with me today, is the most compelling reason to enter into the fasting that I've heard from people. And so thank you for that. It was fantastic.
Unknown:Thank you so much just for heaven. Mean just the gracious gift that first of all those platform is to the body, but also the gift with which you draw out the things that God has placed in people. I truly appreciate you, and it's been such an honor being, yeah, on this on this platform.
Joshua Johnson:Thanks for watching.
