Shifting Culture
Shifting Culture
Ep. 283 Kara Powell - Future-Focused Church
Today, I'm sitting down with Kara Powell, researcher and co-author of "Future Focused Church," to talk about the challenges and opportunities facing churches right now. We'll explore how churches can better connect with younger generations, what real discipleship looks like, and how communities of faith can adapt in a rapidly changing world. Kara brings insights from her research at Fuller Youth Institute about identity, belonging, and purpose - key questions that are driving how people, especially young people, think about faith. We'll discuss practical strategies for church leaders, the importance of listening to younger generations, and how churches can become more outward-focused and missional. We'll also dig into some of the current challenges - like pastor burnout, church transitions, and the shifting religious landscape - but with a hopeful perspective on what's possible. If you're a church leader, ministry worker, or just someone interested in how faith communities might evolve, this conversation is for you. So join us.
Kara Powell, PhD, is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and the founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. Named by Christianity Today as one of "50 Women to Watch," Kara speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences. Kara has authored or coauthored numerous books, including Faith Beyond Youth Group, 3 Big Questions That Shape Your Future, 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, Growing With, Growing Young, The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family, and the entire Sticky Faith series. Kara and her husband, Dave, are regularly inspired by the learning and laughter that come from their three young adult children.
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It's the fact that this generation is irreligious that might just be an open door to religion. It's not that they have too much baggage, like their parents, they have empty bags, and maybe, just maybe open this
Unknown:you Hello and
Joshua Johnson:welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, today I'm sitting down with Cara Powell, researcher and author of future focused church, to talk about the challenges and opportunities facing churches. Right now, we'll explore how churches can better connect with younger generations, what discipleship looks like, and how communities of faith can adapt in a rapidly changing world. Kara brings insights from her research at Fuller Youth Institute about identity, belonging and purpose, key questions that are driving how people, especially young people, think about faith. We'll discuss practical strategies for church leaders, the importance of listening to younger generations, and how churches can become more outward, focused and missional. We'll also dig into some of the current challenges, like Pastor burnout, church transitions and the shifting religious landscape, but with a hopeful perspective on what's possible if you're a church leader, ministry worker, or just someone who's interested in how faith communities might evolve, this conversation is for you. So join us. Here is my conversation with Kara Powell, Kara, welcome to shifting culture. Excited to have you on. Thank you so much for joining me.
Kara Powell:My pleasure and honor. I'm looking forward to a good conversation. Well,
Joshua Johnson:thank you. I just we are are recording in January. This is going to probably come out closer to the release date of future focus Church, which is fantastic, and I think it's really important for the church right now, but we are recording in January. You are in Pasadena. You're close to the the fires in LA, and so I just want to know, like, say, this is where we are at the moment. This is where you are at the moment. You've been dealing with with this. How are you feeling? What's going on? What's the status of Pasadena? Yeah, and LA, yeah, and the church at the moment, area, yeah.
Kara Powell:Well, I'll say, let's see. The fires broke out nine days ago. Our family evacuated for the first five days. And I mean, evacuating was pretty terrifying. As a colleague of mine at Fuller said, It's like being it's like being in an action movie that you want to know part of in terms of the the smoke and the wind and the alarms, etc, just the streets were crazy, etc. Our home is okay. I'm having this discussion from my home office, but really grieving over the dozens of people who've lost homes churches who've lost their facilities, the 13 pastors who lost their homes in the Pasadena Altadena area. And we so appreciate the support of folks like you outside of the area, who are praying, who are reaching out, who are donating, and God's working through churches. I mean, literally hours after the fire broke out, churches were on a joint zoom call strategizing. And you know, as I was spending time this morning with the Lord, I feel like the theme for me personally, has been out of Psalm 34 that God is close to the brokenhearted, and we are a broken hearted community right now. Even those of us whose homes are, you know, more or less Okay, we are broken hearted because of our friends and people at our schools and on our soccer teams and all that. And so I'm just grateful that God is close to us in times like this. So,
Joshua Johnson:yeah, this, this situation that you have to go through at the moment and that your community is going through, exacerbates really what, what people have been going through for for the last five years, it's been really difficult. It's been difficult the church. It seems to me, in the last five years that the there is less hope in the church, just because we have now more more pastors are contemplating quitting, quitting saying, I've had enough. This is really difficult. This is too difficult. Just so many need some help right now, but, but you were saying in your book that the future of the church is bright, and it's brighter than it has been, yeah. Why do you think that in this time of volatility, disorientation and change, that the future is bright when we feel so disoriented at the moment?
Kara Powell:Yeah, first off, you're really right that this is. A hard time to be in church leadership, depending on the study, statistics range somewhere between 30 and 60% of pastors who contemplated leaving in the last year who say they're burned out, et cetera, and probably like you, Joshua, I've had so many pastors in the last few years say this is the toughest year I've ever had in ministry. This is the toughest year I've ever had in ministry. So in the midst of all that, why are we hopeful in the church? Well, I'm going to sound like a seminary professor here, because I'm going to go to theology, which I am, by the way, a professor at Fuller Seminary, like I'm hopeful because of God, like I'm hopeful because of who God is and how God redeems and how God works. And I'm hopeful because of how God chooses to work through God's Church, God's people, just like God worked through God's incarnated son when Jesus was here on Earth, and since then, God continues to work through the incarnated Church, the believers and so, you know, and even going back to the fires here in Southern California, there's a lot of bright spots. There's so much kindness that people are showing but, but it's the churches who are really rallying, who are housing people, who are donating food, who are you letting their kitchens being used by outside nonprofits who want to come and show up and so, you know, and our good days and our bad days, the church is
Joshua Johnson:the hope. Well, I think one of your your checkpoints that you have in your book that says, hey, this is where we need to get to in the church. This is what the next generation is really seeking and going after and wanting and yearning for, that the church is there is tangibly loving our neighbors, and you can see that right now with fires. What's the shift that you are starting to see with churches from being a congregation that is focused on maybe worship, preaching and, you know, making sure that their congregation is okay, towards a place of of tangible, loving neighbors and mission and being in community and benefiting the community and seeing the flourishing of the people around them.
Kara Powell:Yeah, you know Joshua, as you were just talking about the shift from A to B the and the way you described it, the shift from worship and worship services and our our own community, to our neighborhood and our external community, etc. And that's not exactly what you said, but that was certainly a theme in what you said. Well, I think in how you describe the shift, that's a classic example, or really the paradigm of what future focused churches are doing is they're saying it's not just about our inward community, it's how we love our neighbor. Yes, you know they will know that we are Christians. By the way, we love one another. We know that from John and so, of course, our community relationships are so important, but the churches that are really future focused, you're right, we highlight three checkpoints, and when I say we, I mean myself and Jake Mulder and Ray Chang, the other two co authors of the book, but it's the churches that are thinking outward, that are saying, We exist for the community. You know I heard, I heard somebody say, just yesterday, like, would your neighborhood care if you were gone as a church and future focused churches, their neighborhoods, their cities, they would care if they, all of a sudden were God. So when it comes to loving others, that's one of the key shifts to make, from being only inwardly focused to also being a church for the community. What
Joshua Johnson:are the the other things I would say, let's, let's go back into this space and say we have a blueprint of what a future focused church should look like, and I think that would be the early church, yeah. And so we have, we have the early church as they're starting out with community. They're in a they're in a difficult position, yeah, they are not insiders, majority culture people. They are pretty much outsiders, living on the edges and trying to figure out what a different type of community within a Roman culture, which is is different than how they're trying to live. Yeah, and they're being, they're being very fruitful. People are attracted to what is happening within that community, take us back into that early church. What is this blueprint that we're looking for that actually shows us? Hey, this is what we're looking for as a future focused church. Yeah.
Kara Powell:Well, first off, let's not have overly rose colored glasses about the early church.
Joshua Johnson:They're a mess, just like exactly
Kara Powell:that's the point. Joshua. That's the point. Like they have financial scandal, they disagree over leadership, they have conflict on other issues. Like, it sounds a lot like the church of 2025 right? So, so that's the good news. Is, you know, let's not put early church leaders, the disciples, you know, the Acts two church up on a pedestal in many ways, they were like us, and yet, in the midst of that, they stayed outwardly focused. How can we how can we give to bless our community? How can we disciple others to make disciples? You know, they had these core values that really drove them that were more, I would say, deeper internally than a lot of what we tend to do, and more focused outwardly than we might tend to do. So So those are just, I mean, I love that the title of this podcast is shifting culture, right? And so when it comes to shifts, I think those are two of the shifts that future focused churches make. Is let's really do discipleship, and let's really care about those who are not yet part of our community.
Joshua Johnson:Okay, then let's go through both of those things. So let's go deep inside. What does it look like for discipleship, and not just like surface level discipleship, but then also discipling the next generation, the youth and everybody in our church to not just be internally focused, but both. How do we go deep with discipleship? What is the church needing at the moment? Yeah, yeah,
Kara Powell:absolutely. Well, let me just say that discipleship is a tough thing to define. It kind of feels like we know it when we see it, one of those sorts of things, but some of the mistakes that we've made are that we tend to we tend to equate discipleship with a manual or a class. We tend to think of it as only something that's cognitive. And I'm glad you asked about discipling the next generation, because my expertise is definitely in young people. So if I can share what the research that we've done at the full Youth Institute, as well as a national collaborative called 10 by 10 tends to say about discipling young people, and what's most important that I think we can extrapolate for other generations, if that's okay. So, so, so as we have tried, honestly, just in the last six months, to really peel apart what does it mean to disciple young people? What's most important? We've landed on three things. Number one is that faith is shared by mentors and and that's number one for a reason. If you have, if you push me, what's the most important factor in discipling, a young people. In discipling, young people, I'm going to say it's authentic relationship with a caring Jesus centered adult. Number one for a reason. But when we say faith shared by mentors, we don't just mean a verbal explanation. We mean what Paul writes in First Thessalonians, two, eight, I was delighted to share with you not just the gospel, but my very life. So It's life on life sharing. That's number one. Number two is that faith is internalized through spiritual practices and learning. So a young person comes to really own their faith through experiences. And you know, this is something that is so exciting about this generation, when we think about future focused church, is they're hungry for experiences. They're hungry for spiritual practices. I was at a I was at a young life camp a few months ago, and young life can't, you know, geared for young people, and even geared largely for young people outside of the church. And I went to the young life store, and, you know, they had visors, they had water bottles, they had cool sweatshirts. They had five books out that were their kind of recommended five books. Four of the five books had to do with spiritual practices and spiritual formation. So you know, young people are open to spiritual information. And then note that we said faith is internalized through spiritual practices and learning, because, again, understanding is important to discipleship. It's good to have a manual and a class. We just can't equate discipleship to that class. And the third thing is that faith is applied through service. And you know, this is and that service can look like, you know, justice, work, advocacy, sharing your faith, serving in the church. So we use service as a really broad category. And that's something that's exciting about this generation, is that they they want to be changed, to change the world around them. So you know Joshua, let me just pause here and ask you. I just shared what we think is most important for discipleship, for young people, relational community, especially with mentors, internalized through practices and learning and then. Applied through service. What would you change when it comes to other generations? Or does that feel pretty salient?
Joshua Johnson:It feels salient. We like to say it's, it's experience, apprenticeship and education. So you're, you're looking at some those three things. So apprenticeship, right? Is life on life. You're actually sharing your faith with others, and you're raising them up into a place where their faith is is theirs, just like you know, Second Timothy two, two, when Paul says to Timothy, the things you've heard me say in the presence of many witnesses, then teach to others who will teach others, yeah, and that, then they could start to do that. But that was after two years of Timothy being with Paul, right? And then that experience of, like, experiencing faith, your spiritual practices, and then a little bit of learning and experience is also, you know, service and making sure you're out in the community, you're actually doing those things. I think this is what you're you're saying is true, but I think that people kind of get a little wonky. I think traditionally, what we've had is about 90% education, classroom, manual, exactly. And then 5% experience, 5% apprenticeship, yeah. And, you know, we'll call it good, yeah. Probably has to be flipped on its head, yeah. And it's a lot of like, hey, education. And then go out and do, and then debrief. And then the debriefing part is, I think, really crucial with discipleship and that, unfortunately, that means it's more time spent with people.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, not hard, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Joshua Johnson:I mean, hey, it's easier to set up. I could write a curriculum, I could put a video series out there and call it good, but yeah, I think people need to be with others, and I think that's the crucial piece. Is that community part of discipleship?
Kara Powell:Yeah? Well, it's encouraging to see the overlap between what, what you all would say, and what we've seen in our research with young people. So, um, so and, and you're right, like, we can't outsource that kind of discipleship to others. That's something that we get to step into ourselves and experience ourselves. So that's how we would say, Go deeper when it comes to going wider. One of the things that we highlight in future focused church is the importance of loving those who are different than you. In our book, we talk a lot about those who are ethnically and culturally different than you, which, you know, the Acts two church off also had to deal with and really wrestle with. You know, when it comes to the US today. This is the most ethnically diverse generation that we've ever seen. You know, in 2020 we crossed a line where now half of those who are under 18 are young people of color and half are those who are white. And that was 2020 so I don't know what it is in 2025 but it's surely ticked up a few percentage points. So in the book, we talk about, you know, ethnically and culturally different. Let me add something that we don't talk about as much in the book, but it's particularly timely. Particularly timely now is what does it look like for us as a church to love those who are politically different than us? I know a lot of churches who've really struggled as our political culture has become more fractured, it's easy for the church to become more fractured. But can we say you know whether or not you're supportive of by this time that this is area President Trump, right now, he's president elect, but by the time this area still be President Trump, regardless of your feelings about President Trump. Can we learn how to love each other in the midst of those differences? And that's also part of what it means to be a future focused church.
Joshua Johnson:Talk to a church leader of hey, if you are in a predominantly red area, yeah, or predominantly blue area, a lot of times it's a little easier to grow your church numerically if you are toeing the political line, yeah, church, yeah. But if you want to be a future focused church and actually go after diversity and diversity within political thoughts and conversations, your church may not grow quickly right away, and we've thought about church growth for a long time, and that may not be the best, best metric of what your church is doing. So how then are we going to to measure what what it is to be the church? Yeah, and is it numbers, or is it something else that we're trying to focus on that actually says I'm a faithful church that is following Jesus and trying to embody Jesus faithfully where we are?
Kara Powell:Yeah? Yeah. I love the question about metrics. Joshua and we've been thinking about. This for quite a while. And, you know, I know the pressure as a pastor of submitting attendance every week and and yes, and seeing that fluctuate, and what that can do to a pastor emotionally, etc, I have been in that seat, so I very much empathize. Part of what we want to say is future focused churches? Yeah, sure, keep measuring attendance. Absolutely. It's, it's, it's not a terrible metric to track. But you know, would we really say that the true measure of spirituality is people, the number of people who sit in a chair or log in online for 75 minutes a week? No, of course not. And so, you know, what we recommend to leaders is, take attendance, take finances. You know, those are two of kind of the most typical metrics. Use that as as part of your criteria for evaluating, but let's add additional let's add additional metrics to that. So, you know, maybe the three things that we talk about in future focused church, we've we've been hitting on here. It's, How are you prioritizing young people? How are you investing in those who are different than you? And then, how are you loving, loving your neighbor and so and we actually, in the book, we give possible metrics for all three of those that I would say to a church, don't eliminate attendance and finances, but let's add some additional metrics to that. So when it comes to young people, of course you can do attendance for young people, but let's also look at how are young people serving in the church? How many adults know the names of five young people? How many adults are praying for young people, like, Let's track those sorts of things when it comes to loving our neighbor. Let's look at the how many you know, the way that we're serving in our community, the way that we're partnering with existing nonprofits. How many nonprofits are we investing in when it comes to our people and maybe even financial partnerships? So, so yes, let's keep with the kind of, you know, the most obvious two metrics, but let's round that out more holistically. That's part of what it means to be a future focused church.
Joshua Johnson:I think you you do touch on this, and you've touched on this, I think a lot with your your research, with youth, and your previous books, but talking about the three questions and three areas that people are really going after, is identity, belonging and purpose. And I think for young people, especially, it's important. I think it's important for everybody in the church, identity, belonging and purpose, right? We need to have that. I mean, this is conversation that we've been having on the podcast a little bit, especially around these things is that since the enlightenment, and since for a long time, in years, we and in this post modern world where everything seems like we don't know where our identity is. We don't we're not rooted in something. It's very easy to follow a a vision where it's promising identity, belonging and purpose, and oftentimes, if that visionary person decides to go off the rails and do something inappropriate, whether whatever it is, and like we've seen in the early church, that, you know, leaders felt all those things because their identity, their belonging and the purpose is all tied up in that visionary leader and that vision. Yeah, it feels like if we kick them out. We don't know where our identity lies, right? We are all shaken up. How do we have a secure identity and belonging and purpose that is outside of the great man of vision, but is actually rooted in Jesus and in the community of of faith that we have, what is the dynamic between those two things, so that we don't end up actually putting our identity in something we thought was Jesus, but was actually in just a a Nice little vision that we heard from some guy,
Kara Powell:yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for introducing something that's been in the back of my mind this whole conversation, and I was wondering how to bring it into our dialog. And you did for me. So thank you. And that is that, based on previous research we've done at the fuller Youth Institute, we think young people wrestle with three big questions, identity, you've made them, but I'll just define them real quickly. Identity, who am I? Belonging? Where do I fit and purpose? What difference can I make? Identity, belonging and purpose. You also named Joshua that these aren't just young people questions. These are people, people questions and and I have found. And that when I'm feeling heat about an issue, just kind of emotions are being raised in me, it's usually because it's somehow bumping against my identity, belonging and purpose, and maybe making me insecure in those areas. So our kids are 1822, and 24 and when they are acting a little different than they normally do, when their behavior or their attitude seems a little askew. If I stop and ask myself, gosh, are they looking for identity? Are they looking for belonging? Are they looking for purpose? It's like the penny drops. And I come to understand, oh, that's why they're doing that. And the same is true with me. If I'm having like, you know, an unusual emotional reaction, it's usually because of a threat to my identity, belonging and purpose. And you know, you named what ideally is the source of our identity, belonging and purpose, not culture, not the church, not even Christianity as a religious system, but really Jesus. And so part of what we say is when, when we think about discipleship and we think about that first thing that we talked about of adults sharing their life with young people, a big part of what we share is our own journey from our current answers to identity, belonging and purpose, to Jesus centered answers to identity, belonging and purpose and so. So you know, how does that come about? Well, that comes about through a lot of scripture study, a lot of dialog, a lot of repentance, a lot of self awareness, a lot of accountability, and so all of those elements of formation are how any of us can journey from our current answers to Jesus centered answers. Let me just say for myself, the area where I struggle the most is an identity, and especially when it comes to me as a mom, so one of my daily prayers for myself is that I would know that Jesus makes me enough, that Jesus makes me enough, and that actually is kind of the core message we suggest young people need to know for their identity, is that Jesus makes them enough, the core message for belonging that we would love young people to really embrace is that they're with God's family, that when they're with God's people, that's where they find the most joy and peace. And then when it comes to purpose, the core message is we're part of God's story. So, you know, with my own three kids. I remember, there was one time where I was reading this book that was talking about how, how you can specifically be praying for your kids. And so I was challenged. I was motivated. Like, yes, I want to discern, how should I be praying for my kids? So I practice a weekly Sabbath. And I thought, Okay, my next Sabbath, I'm going to really, you know, however long it takes, I'm going to figure out, what is it that I should be praying for my kids? And so, you know, Sabbath, journal, Bible, worship music, I'm ready. And in about 30 seconds, I realized, wait a second, I want to be praying that my kids would know that they're enough. They belong with God's people, and they're part of God's story. So literally, that's what I prayed for my three kids this morning. Like that's one of my most regular prayers. So it's the ongoing process of praying for ourselves and praying for others and just leaning into those truths
Joshua Johnson:man that is so good. And it is where, you know, anything that bumps up against us, it is bumping up against our identity, belonging or purpose. Yeah, it really is. It is such a struggle throughout our entire life. And I think we, this is the journey of a lifetime for us, yeah? And that's the, I mean, it is exacerbated as a young person, because they are questioning Yeah, those things more than that's the the big time in our life that we Yeah, in those things, right? Yep, yeah. And so we're, we're trying, do we fit in this group over here? Do we fit in that group over here? What type of a group do we fit into? Who am I? The problem is like we also live in and still in an industrial age where we are defined by what we do and not who we are as the core being of who we are. Yeah. And so what does that look like, then into like, shaping children and youth if you don't have your identity, belonging and purpose figured out, how can we actually then transfer something to the next generation? Because we can't, we don't have it figured out ourselves. Yeah,
Kara Powell:first off, let me just say that you are right that these identity, belonging and purpose questions, I would say they're always at a low simmer in our lives as humans, but in times of transition, they're at a rolling boil. And so young people, up to age 30, constant transition. And sometimes older than age 30, it's so that's an intense time. Let me also say that the third third of life is also a time of intense transition. And so at Fuller there's some folks researching that third third, and they're they're using identity, belonging and purpose as one of their main paradigms, and job transition, moving, etc, those are all times where our identity, belonging and purpose questions really heat up for us. So. So thank you for bringing that into the conversation. And I would say those of us in ministry like those questions are especially all in meshed for us, right? So our belonging, our communities, often our ministry context, that's also our sense of purpose, that's also our sense of identity. So when that's not going well, or when we're in transition there, that again, heats up all these questions.
Joshua Johnson:Well, I think for being a having hope for the future of the church, yeah, I think because we have many people that are now religious nuns, or they are like, Hey, I have left the institutional church, but I still have faith in Jesus, and I love Jesus. All of those people, they're really their community has been shaken, yeah, right, their sense of belonging, they're they're trying. That's the big question. They're trying to they're asking these questions, yeah, I've had this, yeah. So is there a place where, where the church can, can step in, yeah, and help with with people that are, I would say, on the margins, like, like Periphery, around the church, but not within the actual congregation? How can we help the community and the people that have had these things, but now they're wrestling with Who am I now? Where do I belong? Yeah,
Kara Powell:yeah. Well, let me say something that's really exciting about young people these days, and I'm going to share a theory that I'm still testing. Okay, so I would say most everything I've said up until now, I have solid data for where I as a researcher, I try to make it clear when my data is less solid or when it's anec data, so to speak. And so we're kind of into anec data here. There's some data but, but, you know, when it comes to millennials and Gen X and even a lot of Gen Z, they had negative experiences with the church. What I think is interesting about Gen alpha is they have fewer experiences with the church. I Josh Packard, a fantastic researcher from future of faith. We were just dialoguing last night by email. And you know, he said, for today's young people, like teenagers today, you know, the very end of Gen Z and the start of Gen alpha, it's not that they hate the church. They nothing the church. They don't, they don't have a verb that fits there yet. And so, you know, some folks in the circles that I'm in, like we're wondering, is this, is this post Christian, using cultural terms, is this post Christian generation? Perhaps really a pre Christian generation, or a pre revival generation? And there are some glimpses of hope. I'm on the board of InterVarsity and what God is doing on college campuses. It's pretty remarkable, like campus after campus, spontaneous water baptisms. Too many people coming, signing up for retreat. So they have to, you know, house people in tents, a lot of chapters at their largest size ever. My understanding is that crew is experiencing the same kind of growth what we're seeing with teenagers. It's a little, it's, it's more spotty, I would say, than with college students. But there are, you know, really more teenagers responding here and there, especially to those three parts of discipleship, right? They're responding to adult mentors. They're responding to a spiritual experiences as well as real interesting learning. And then they're responding to service. So you know, your very first question was about hope, and I thought about diving into this then, and it just felt like it was too long of an answer. So I'm glad we're kind of circling back to that like it's, it's the fact that this generation is irreligious, that might just be an open door to religion. It's not that they have too much baggage, like their parents. They have empty bags and maybe, just maybe open this so again, I'm not I'm tentative on this. It's too early to see, but some of us are poking at this as a new way to look at this generation's faith. Well,
Joshua Johnson:we could, we could see that. I could see that I get excited. You know, I've been in the missions world for a long time, so and I lived in the Middle East, where there was. A lot of faith, but it was not Christian faith. You know, it was really easy to talk to Muslims about Jesus and God because they have a lot of faith. Then my question if, if we're there, how do we not go the way of Europe? Because they they're the same spot, and they have been, and they've been in the same spot, a little bit into the future than than we have in America. And so there may be some things where maybe there wasn't some innovation change of saying, let's get back into really what it looks like to be a faithful follower of Jesus, like the early church, was, how do we actually work towards change nation and not just say what we have always done is going to be enough, because, hey, these young people are coming. There's spontaneous water baptisms, there's all those things. There's a re energy within the church. So we could just stay with what we have done, how do we make that shift and change? To say we actually have to do something different if we're going to continue with the faith? Yeah, absolutely.
Kara Powell:Well, I'm glad you asked that question, the how do we make change question, Joshua, because I think up until now, we've mostly been talking about what needs to change, which is the first part of our future focused church book, the second part, and actually it's the bigger half of the book, is, how do we make change? And my co authors, Jake Mulder, Ray Chang and the full Youth Institute, over the last number of years, we've journeyed with over 1000 churches who've been in this process of making change, including cultural change. In fact, at the heart, it's usually cultural change, it's adaptive change, not just technical change and and we, based on that data, based on other really good research on change, based on what scripture has to say, we've identified a four phase process, a map, so to speak, that'll look a little different for every church, but a map that has some core elements in it. And I'll just quickly rattle off the four, the four zones, and then you can decide which ones we go deeper. And the first one is here. Where are we right now? What's our current reality? And that, you know, that's a lot of what we've been talking about up until now in this discussion. The next step is knowing, are there, what is God's, you know, preferable future for us? We've also been touching on that but, but part of what we get into in the book is, how do you really involve your community in identifying that there. And how do you paint a compelling picture that people are willing to risk and willing willing to give up some a little bit at least of what's important to them because they are so compelled by that vision. The third phase is who, and that is really knowing who you are. And how do you activate a transformation team to bring about that change. And then the fourth zone is how, and this is where we actually get into like, how do you have the right meetings? How do you maintain disciplined attention? How do you navigate conflict on the way from here and there? So hopefully here, there, who and how is a graspable way for people to think about the process of change.
Joshua Johnson:And doesn't it sound like a nice, linear process?
Kara Powell:Oh, we get into that, but, like, actually our map diagram, it's got ups and downs and curly cues. I mean, it looks like a roller coaster, because change is that so, so yes, thank you for naming that. Yeah, absolutely
Joshua Johnson:it is. It is definitely a roller coaster, and it's a lot more difficult than we actually think it will be, and we're going to experience loss and pain and struggle in the midst of change. We're about, man, we're almost six years into a big change in my local church of what we're doing. I'm an elder. Oh, great at the church trying to help lead this change. We went from, you know, a every Sunday worship. We always wanted to, you know, do Acts two in the homes, but yeah, we're now, you know, meeting in homes three times, getting home churches, and then we gather once a month with all the home churches together, and then trying to figure out mission in the community, what that looks like, diversity, all the all these things that we've been shifting and changing, yeah, man, we have, we have lost a lot of people. We have gained new people. We have tried to figure out, Oh, these people are we're not the right team for, you know, to be in the this position, it is not the like a step by step, you're going to get this process, and it's going to be simple and easy. Yeah, there's a lot of trial and error and adaptive change takes a lot of I'm okay. Okay with failure? Yeah, well, and that's one of the most difficult things when we have been a church for many, for decades now, where the status quo could could lead to what we think is success. And so now, when we're into a place of of adaptive change, yeah, we're going to have to be okay with failure. What? What is that a basically internal, spiritual heart posture for church leaders? How do they need to take that of knowing that maybe their identity is going to be be shaken, yeah, and their purpose is going to be shaken in the midst of it. How do they hold on to something? Are there any practices that that leaders can do that they will be okay with the failure that's going to come, even though we know the destination where we want to get to, and we're going to get there someday, yeah?
Kara Powell:Well, I'm speaking to myself with this principle that I'm going to say, because I tend to often be a little bit too cautious. And it's this, if, if you aren't failing, then you probably aren't risking enough. If there aren't some things that don't work, then you're probably not trying outlandish enough ideas. And so you know what I would say is, we talk about this in the book, like, how do we reframe failure as an opportunity to learn? And we actually do this periodically in full Youth Institute staff meetings. And I want us to do it even more, which is part of our agenda, is how I failed and what I learned from it. And again, I want to do it more and have it be but more regular feature of our agenda, but just to make failure discussable and as a learning opportunity now, now with that, you know, I I'm not saying fail intentionally, and there are, of course, steps we can take To try to not fail and to succeed. But one, one hack that we highly recommend is when you're trying new things, to call those new things an experiment, because it signals to your community that, yeah, we're trying something, and just like with other experiments, if it doesn't work, we'll go ahead and and shut it down, and then with the experiment, and we're working on this internally, too, at the full Youth Institute. Let's be really clear on the metrics we're going to track to know if that experiment is really working. So I would say the language experiment is really helpful in a community when it comes to try new things
Joshua Johnson:that's so good. And, man, there's a there's a ton of things that you just need to go out, get the book, future focused church and and read it and and walk through that with your teams. But what would your hope be for the people pick up the book, read it, and for the churches that would say, I want to actually implement some of this stuff.
Kara Powell:Thank you for asking that. And I guess I would say, as we wrap up here, that a theme in our research, a theme in our book, is that we would really listen to those we serve. A lot of times we as leaders, we have hunches, we have ideas. But one of the principles in the book, to quote my colleague at Fuller Scott core mode, is that leadership begins with listening. And so if you want to engage the next generation, are you listening to the next generation? If you want to engage those who are different, are you listening to those who are different? I can't tell you how many churches have come to us with ideas for what they want to do for teenagers and young adults, and they haven't actually listened to teenagers and young adults, or they want it to be for them instead of with them and by them. And so first step, listen, create practices, mobilize others in your church to listen. The other benefit is that people will be more supportive of change if they feel like they've helped shape the change. Or, as we say more succinctly in the book, people tend to support what they create. And so when people are involved in discussions and feel heard and when you loop back to them and let let them know how their input, their experiences, are making a difference in your plans, then they feel like they're helping create something, and they'll generally be more supportive.
Joshua Johnson:Hmm, yes, that's so good. That is so true. That's so right. And the the the hard thing is, listening, I think is a little easier. Getting feedback is a little easier, but then providing, like, something on the back end, saying, Hey, this is how we implemented things. I don't think the follow through is always there. I think that's the hard thing. Yeah,
Unknown:I know. Well, I'm working on that too. Yes, absolutely. But I
Joshua Johnson:think it's crucial. So important. So I'm glad you pointed that out. Those were good couple really quick questions at the end. One. Cara, now, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would
Kara Powell:you give rest and pray more? I mean, those are the first two things that come to mind, and it's what I part of what I feel like God's saying to me today is, how do I really release and rest. And how do I really seek the Lord so rest and pray more. Great.
Joshua Johnson:Anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend,
Kara Powell:ooh, I just finished a book. Oh, now I've got to look up the name. So about reducing friction, and it's got me thinking a lot about how much friction we unwittingly allow the friction project, sorry, let's just look at the name real quick. The subtitle is how smart leaders make the right things easier and the wrong things harder. And so it's about how we in our organizations, we were well intentioned, but we create friction that keeps us from doing the things we all want to do. So that's something I've been quoting lately. So that's
Joshua Johnson:great. Sounds fascinating. Sounds good. People could go out and get future focused church, wherever books are sold. I guess you could go to Baker, book house. They'll have that for 40% off. If you pre order it. They have crepe prices, so you can go, go straight there to the publisher, but go out and get the book. Is this fantastic? And so I think this will help a lot of churches as they're navigating what is next, what is the future of the church? Where are we headed? Give us a little bit of handholds to help us on the journey that because we are in a disorienting time, requires some adaptive change, requires us to lead into the future, which is not always easy, and it is a different it is a different skill set than a lot of pastors have been using for their career. And so this is going to be very helpful for a lot of people. So go out and get the book future focused church. Kara, thank you for this conversation. I loved this conversation. And then really talk about identity, belonging and purpose, making sure that we are actually discipling the next generation and relationally with mentors, sharing their faith with young people, that we actually model some Kingdom diversity, and then we are loving our neighbors well in community. So I just pray that we continue to do that. And thank you, Kara, this was fantastic. It's
Kara Powell:been my honor and joy. Thanks. Joshua, you you.
