Shifting Culture
Shifting Culture
Ep. 290 Aimee Byrd Returns - Unmasking the Faces We Hide Behind
Today, I'm talking with Aimee Byrd—an author who often pushes us to question norms we usually take for granted. If you've ever felt the pressure to put on a mask or hide parts of who you really are, you'll find this conversation meaningful. In her latest book, "Saving Face," Aimee dives into the masks we all wear, the ways we conceal ourselves, and what it takes to discover our authentic selves underneath it all. We'll unpack some thoughtful questions: What stories do our faces reveal? What changes when we drop the act and allow ourselves to be seen? Aimee shares honestly from her experiences with spiritual abuse, theological reflection, and her personal journey toward healing and authenticity. We also discuss journaling, encountering Jesus in surprising moments, and why truly seeing each other might hold answers for a deeply divided society. If you're navigating issues of faith, identity, or just interested in genuine connection, I think you'll find this episode insightful and practical. Let's get into it—this is about what it means to save face by choosing to show our real faces.
Aimee Byrd is author, speaker, blogger, podcaster and former coffee shop owner. Aimee is the author of several books, including Saving Face, The Hope in Our Scars, Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and Sexual Reformation. Her articles have appeared in First Things, Table Talk, Modern Reformation, By Faith, New Horizons, Ordained Servant, Harvest USA, and Credo Magazine and she has been interviewed and quoted in Christianity Today and The Atlantic.
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Till We Have Faces
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Beauty is actually an invitation to walk in goodness, to walk in truth, you know, and to see beauty in that way. I definitely see God in that you not just as the creator you know, which is wonderful, but as a beckoner you Joshua,
Joshua Johnson:hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we could make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson, today I'm talking with Amy bird, an author who often pushes us to question norms we usually take for granted. If you've ever felt the pressure to put on a mask or hide parts of who you really are, you'll find this conversation meaningful. In her latest book saving face, Amy dives into the masks we all wear, the ways we conceal ourselves and what it takes to discover our authentic selves underneath it all, we'll unpack some thoughtful questions. What stories do our faces reveal? What changes when we drop the act and allow ourselves to be seen? Amy shares honestly from her experiences with spiritual abuse through theological reflection and her personal journey toward healing and authenticity. We also discuss journaling, encountering Jesus in surprising moments, and why truly seeing each other might hold answers for a deeply divided society. If you're navigating issues of faith, identity or just interested in genuine connection, I think you'll find this episode insightful and practical. So let's get into it. This is about what it means to save face by choosing to show our real faces. Here is my conversation with Amy bird. Amy, welcome back to shifting culture. So glad to have you back on. Thanks for joining me.
Aimee Byrd:Yeah, it's great to talk again. Joshua, thanks for having me. Yeah, let's talk about faces
Joshua Johnson:today. We're we're gonna dive into your book saving face. So why faces? What? What drew you to the face? What drew you to this? This topic, why do you think that our faces are so important? Ah,
Aimee Byrd:that's a good question. I believe that it's a theme that's kind of been working its way in my life and in my thought life. It's a very existential kind of theme. But Your faces are so confrontational, and I think there are such a good metaphor too, for you build, like, the first half of your life. You really build this kind of persona, right, this ego of the person that you want to be, and you want other people to see you at and you know what you define as goodness, even, and what you believe Scripture teaches about that. So we try to be that. And then often it's later in life when we realize that, oh, like, I've been putting all this on. I've been in this hustle. I've been striving so much, but maybe a lot of what I've constructed isn't real and isn't really me. There is a philosopher, Emmanuel Levinas, who has written about the face and the naked face and the blessings that we give in our face. And I was fascinated by his writing, but it's very academic, and so I wanted to bring that down into a more contemplative writing style. And so this book of mine is is a different writing style, but it's really about encounter, encounter with yourself, encounter with other people and encounter with God.
Joshua Johnson:Well, then take us into an encounter. What are some of our first encounters, of faces? How does that help us as we first enter this world? Right?
Aimee Byrd:I mean, we come into this world looking for a face. We come looking for a face that is delighting in our face, and that really tells us something. When we see that delight, when we make that connection, it tells us that we matter. It tells us that we're loved. And so we learn about who we are by the faces that we encounter. We can't see our own face, so we're learning about who we are through the faces of others. And you know, it's interesting, because before we develop language and everything, we're really good at using that right brain that can read a face and really know what's going on in that face and and what they're communicating to us. And you know, ultimately, we're looking for God's face. Our great longing is for us to be face to face, you know, the vision of God and for him to delight in us. And so. Believe that our faces are, in a sense, like mirrors showing ourselves to one another, but also like God is hiding in the face of a neighbor. And so Emmanuel Levinas does say, he says, you know, theology begins in the face of a neighbor. And it really brings home what Christ said about I never knew you kind of thing. I was thirsty and you didn't give me water. I was in prison and you didn't visit me. You know, I was naked and you didn't clothe me. And so I just think of, I'm trying to live my life now, more picturing like Christ in that person I'm talking to and encountering
Joshua Johnson:that makes all the difference. If you see Christ in that person, even if they're not emulating Christ, if you could see Christ in that person, we are all made in the image of God. Since we come into the world seeking a face and we we know who we are for like the delight in others faces, it seems to me that we forget that right away when we're growing up, and then we're we're constantly striving to get back to the place of seeing the delight of other people's faces when they see me, so we could be truly known. We have our identity and we have belonging. Where does this brokenness come into? Where does this face? Where we we forget about the delight in others, and we forget that God is delighting in us. How do we be? How did we become broken?
Aimee Byrd:A lot of answers to that question, right? You know, there's the obvious Christian theological answer about Sen, which is very true and real, but I try to frame it in the book too, just about like the fractures in our faces and and I feel like you, so I have a whole part in the book on that, and what I try to do is, like, with each chapter, they're shorter chapters, I Have a little kind of storied memory of my own, and it's like going back and visiting my face at different stages of my life. And so I do I capture some of those, those fractures, and some of those were when I was harmed and and other times it's when I'm harming other people too, you know, in these memories, and what can we learn in them. And so I think to go back and revisit memories that have stuck with us for some reason, and why? Why is that? What I remember about when I was eight, what was it that was significant there, that it's made it like implicit in my mind still? So I think there's a lot of fractures going on in our psyche and our souls. However, we try so hard to hide them and stuff them down. They might be parts about us that we don't like, you know, sinful parts that we're like, Okay, this isn't good. I can't be this person. I want to be this person. But instead of actually being curious about why it's there, you know, and what we can explore and do about it and honest with ourselves and other people, we stuff it down and pretend like we're past it, we're over it, and those things kind of pop back up later in life, you know. Or we jack it onto other people, you know. What I'm trying to do in the book here is be able to, you know, what I kind of describe as dig up our secrets to these encounters with Jesus in Scripture. Isn't he doing that over and over again? He is this kind of mirror, you know, and and he helps people dig up their secrets about themselves. That's been there all along, but we just won't look at it. You know, that's the naked face
Joshua Johnson:I'm I'm working on a one man show at the moment, and it's all about the encounters with Jesus, and how when we encounter Jesus, he encounters us, it can shift everything in culture that there's cycles of revenge will actually be stopped, because there's love and forgiveness, and it's the encounter of Jesus, and it's really important. But you said something before that's really, really key, is that when we actually get hurt, or we hurt others and we stuff it down, then we have a a face that we put on. We have a put on face, right? We we don't project who we truly are to the world. What happened to you when you started to stuff down the fractures in your life?
Aimee Byrd:I think I became pretty self righteous, you know, like I started to leave my own story about myself. And it's interesting, because, you know, it really took, you know, I'm ashamed to say it took for me to go through terrible spiritual abuse in the church. And you know, I've written about that, I've spoken about that, and I've, you know, come to see like, as evil as it was, and as cruel as it was, and how it completely led to like, disillusionment and rocking my world. Held in a lot of ways, there was a point where I had to really do some work on myself, like, what attracted me to a church like this in the first place? You know, what? Why wasn't I looking at some things that were obviously there and wrong, you know, until this happened to me? Why did I hold on for so long thinking there would be reform and change and, you know, all these things. And so it was this evaluation of my own self then, like, I need better self awareness. And so I realized that I did have, I was attracted to this denomination, particularly because it made me feel very secure. It made me feel like there was this certainty, you know, there was kind of an elitism in that theology, that system that they had. And it made me feel safe and secure and right, you know, and good. And then when I saw it all blow up and and was led to such disillusionment, you know, I was seeing some of that in my own self, on my own character as well. No, and one memory I've revisited in the book is of one of my oldest, dearest childhood friends, whom I harmed a couple times, but one time, you know, in my 30s, when she was going our 30s, when she was going through a divorce, and I looked back and saw just how clueless I was to her pain, how self righteous I was. You know about this divorce? We both came from divorce homes, so, you know, I believe that she would do that like, like I was putting it on her, though, and it really fractured our friendship. And I will say, like being able to go through that memory, work and share it with her, like we've, we've been able to grow some more together. But it's, it's because I was able to look at my own self and be like, you know, what's the matter here with me? How did I do that to my friend, you know? And truly torn up and broken over it. So, yeah, I mean, this is not easy work to do, but it's very freeing, because then you realize, like all the work that you're doing to keep that hustle going, you know, false person that you thought you were. One
Joshua Johnson:thing that you said in there, I think, is really key. I could see if, if you get disillusioned, you experience spiritual abuse, you see the system that is not right, and then you just go against the system, get out of it, and you don't do your own work and have any self awareness of who you are. In the midst of it, you can start to perpetrate the same absolute things that are happening within the church, and so like doing that work is really crucial and key if we want to see any healing within the church and with each other as as a community. What led you to some of this work? How did you start to say, I actually have to start to excavate what's inside of me and not just put everything on other people, which they perpetrated horrible things, but it's I have a part to play in this too, and I need to figure out who I am. Yeah, I
Aimee Byrd:think multiple things led me to that. My time in the Word definitely, you know, I've spent significant time in the song songs, and I feel like that, that intimate book in the Bible, you know that is kind of this intimate encounter with God, you know that I think was able to help me to feel like loved enough by God, to be able to do that, how and develop my own longings and desires. However, our family has really struggled in finding a good church home ever since, like, we're still working at it. You know, a lot of it's our own, not ready to be that vulnerable. Other parts of it are like, What the heck's going all the church right now? And in some ways, you feel a little stranded and alone. And yet, I think God has me in that liminal space. Maybe I wouldn't do that work, if I was able to rush right back into another community. And so I think that's another area. I've been doing a lot of journaling. I think that's been, you know, you really can get to some self awareness when you when you do a practice like that. And then, you know, I've also had more interest in psychology, because I felt like one surprising thing to me was how immature the leaders in the church were when I went through this problem. And in a way, that's embarrassing to even talk with unbelievers about, because it's such a poor witness of the church to see like the name, the level of meme calling and coming after, you know, my reputation online, and, you know, taking my kids pictures and doing stuff with them, and terrible, terrible things, and the way, none of it could really be addressed in the like the process of church order. So. So odd, very disillusioning to see the level of immaturity and these leaders, spiritually, emotionally, you know, in trying to address some of this and in a mature way and not have that reciprocated. So that led me to really, you know, look more into things like, you know, like Carl young, he, he talks about the shadow, you know, a lot of that is like, you build this persona your whole life, and then you're stuffing these other things down. That's the shadow. But there comes a time in life where we got to dig that back up and look at it, and unpack it, see what it's all about, and how does that get integrated into our whole self? I feel like the church has a lot of shadow work to do now, for sure, but even like in looking at our history. So these are all things I think that got me on onto this topic and wanting to do that work.
Joshua Johnson:Thank you for doing that work and showing us that we actually have to do some of this shadow work. How do we start? How do we move towards a place where we could start to find our identity, not in the scars that we have, the things that we've actually been fractured by, the striving that we do, the masks that we put on, but actually then take them off with each other. What is something like incarnational listening or like being involved with somebody like that we could open up in safe places. What does it look like to open up safe places so that we could start to do some of this work together. Close
Aimee Byrd:relationships are so important, right? Relationships where you really feel like you can be open and so what I'm trying to do in this book is help start a conversation, but really help us develop within ourselves to be that kind of person, to be the kind of person who is a safe person to talk to, who isn't going to shame you right away, but is going to help us to dig out our own secrets, and you know, not secrets like I did this terrible crying or whatever, but just things that we haven't faced about ourselves and to encourage that encounter with where God is meeting us in that so I think that friendship is so important. And you know, that's something I have written a lot about in my books and in my blogging and sub stacking, and it's something I was also disillusioned with a little bit after the church experience I had. Because, you know, we small groups are great in church, but sometimes they can be deceiving as well. You know, like I thought I was in the small group, that was one thing, and I found out it was another thing, huh? But I still have some really close friendships from my small group at church as well. Some were very painful, and then some have made it through, and I believe those were the ones that functioned with more maturity and being able to be like these are couples, married couples that we can talk to about our own struggles, you know, and know that they're not going to gossip about it somewhere. They're not going to be like, Oh my gosh, can you believe, you know, and that kind of thing, but that we're truly able to help one another imagine God's goodness and vision for us even when we can't feel it ourselves. You know, to be able to be that for other people is such a gift. And I mean, I'm thinking of my own self, and I'm thinking about my friends who you know, have been in the pit, you know, and you know, whether it's a spouse leaving them, you know, and completely heartbroken and not knowing, like how they ever are going to have a future without that person, and to be able to sit there with them in the pit and remind them of their goodness, but also to be like, Yeah, this sucks, you know, and to grieve with them, but then also be able to remind them, imagine for them the goodness that is ahead, and then To be there when it happens, you know, and when somebody's in the pit, like your brain can't hold all that stuff together, like Diane langberg talks about this a lot. When somebody's experienced trauma, they repeat things over and over because it just doesn't make sense, and their brain can't hold it. But not to get tired of it, just continue to be there for them through that they'll get through it to be that person who who stays in the room.
Joshua Johnson:I don't, for some reason, this has reminded me of the movie Sing, sing, which it's it's a beautiful movie. Not many people have seen it. It didn't make very, very much money, but it's a true story about Sing, sing, prison and arts program and sing, sing. So they put on plays, and it's one of the best recidivism programs. And in the United States, more people stay out of jail when they go through this program than any other program in the US. But the thing that Coleman Domingo's character does in the in the movie is he calls people Beloved. COVID, they call each other Beloved. So as they're in a group together, they're seeing each other for their true identity as beloved children of God before whatever they did, you know, and we often put whatever we did on us, and so the belovedness is hidden underneath all of the shame and all of the the hurts and all the loss that we have in our life. And so we have to recover our belovedness. And when we do that, then we could actually see belovedness in others, where we can see the face of Jesus in others. For you, where did you start to discover some of your belovedness? Like, what does it look like in Scripture to to unfold the belovedness of Amy?
Aimee Byrd:Well, again, the Song of Songs was administered to me deeply. You know, going through what I went through, you know, a huge part of it was being a woman, going through that right, and speaking in these dynamics in the church of men and women, and being shamed as a woman. And the words used to shame me, you know Jezebel, the great whore of Babylon. You know these you don't say that about men. The Song of Songs is like the woman is the dominant voice in that book, and she represents Christ's people, his beloved, right, his church. And she opens and closes the song. She rushes in immodestly from the beginning, like saying what she wants. And there's also parts in there, though, where she can't find God, you know, she's looking for him. There's these night scenes. She's abused, you know, by the the keepers, the the gatekeepers, the guards. And where, where is he? She can't find her lover, you know. And why isn't he there for her? But then, you know, she finds him again. So I love that, because I just think it really takes you through so much of life, those words I take truly to be like these. This is Christ speaking to me, you know. And so he says, You are beautiful, my love. There is no flaw in you. And I just think, wow, like those words, I long to hear that from God, and it's because of Christ that he, you know, will say that to us. And there's a sense of receiving that right now. You know, in the beginning of the story, she says, Don't look at me, you know, I'm swarthy, and she's got the shame, and at the end, she's a very different voice. It's so emotive, which is interesting, because I was in a denomination that really took that away. You know, it was so super theological and so left brain and analytical. And I think that one thing that attracted me to that was that I do have a more contemplative, mystical kind of personality. And so I thought, I need to hone this in, you know, I need to be this, this, this and this, to go back and see, oh, man, this is in Scripture, and it's beautiful. There's a reason why metaphor is used to teach in Scripture. You know it does more than just the prepositional statements. You know it does more than the dogma. It directs our desires, it develops our longings. You know it, it gives us this picture of, oh, you know, it's beautiful. So, you know, poetry can teach us in ways that just stating doctrine cannot obviously, we need both. I think that's something that really helped me to know that unbeloved that, and then coupled with, you know, people in my life who the gig was up like, you know, even if people were saying horrible things about me that weren't true. My reputation was publicly ruined. I had to deal with what how do you live? Then do you keep defending yourself? I know I had to look to myself, Okay. I know I'm not the things that these people are calling me, but how am I going to respond? Who Am I? And so the conflict itself and the confrontation, the many, many confrontations I had to have, both with others and myself, I think, is another way of saying, okay, even while now I'm in the pit, Jesus is right there beside me, it
Joshua Johnson:reminds me. Well, it doesn't remind me, but it tells me that if people are going through what you went through. If I'm your friend, I'm important to you like I need to speak life and truth into you during that time. A lot of times, I don't know, a lot of times we everybody else ignores it. We have to be very intentional with the people in our lives, to move towards them, to see them for who they are, and then to help. Them see who they are and not believe all the lies that are being thrown at them. Because I think that happens a lot,
Aimee Byrd:right? And I think another thing that happens a lot is you look at people who are like, who we'd call strong, who can handle conflict well, who you know, seem to hold themselves together well, who lead well? And you think, Okay, well, they're okay. And I think a lot of times you don't realize, like, what that kind of strength takes and what is going on in their inner world, you know? And I know, for me, even see this started in 2020, all the horribleness when my book recovering from biblical manhood and womanhood came out. It's 2025 and I am still, you know, like even now, is when my body is telling me more about the trauma I went through. You know, I've been holding on to it for so long. So it's just like, you think, for years, just trying to be like the mature one, trying to address this in the best way. You know how? You know not that I didn't make mistakes and sin and that and everything else. But now I feel like, wow. It's not like, Oh, let me just take a year to heal. Here does some real damage. And so those friendships, who, who were there, who made me realize too, like, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter that they say you're the great whore of Babylon. It's horrible. They're doing that. That matters, that they're church leaders. We still love you like, you know, like, that's not that doesn't matter what's being said there,
Joshua Johnson:you said something right there that your body is just keep catching up. And a lot of times, I mean, you were in denomination that you're almost like heads on a stick, like it's, it's about the intellect and and the mind. How have you started to learn that actually, trauma and all of this actually, is stored in your body? Has there been any anything that you've done with your body, that what we can do to actually move us to to take off the masks, to say, Oh, I am me, because I could actually heal. Because Jesus is an embodied God. He came in flesh, the body, I think is really important, and you suffered. So what, what has the body been for you, and how have that helped you heal?
Aimee Byrd:You know, even though I was in that kind of denomination, I've always been very much an embodied person. I grew up with my dad teaching martial arts and jiu jitsu in our home. You know, my mom, even in the because we had a dojo, my mom used it to teach aerobics to the neighbors in the evenings, you know, like, very physical family. So, you know, that's something I've carried through my adulthood. Is a physicality is very important to me. So I thought I was doing good, Joshua, I thought, like, I'm doing this, like I'm I'm reading books, The Body Keeps the Score. You know, I'm like, doing all so I felt like, you know, I'll do some yoga here, there. I felt like I was doing well. But the thing is, I think, which is the craziest trick you can play on yourself, is like I was trying so hard to be okay and tell everybody I'm okay, but inside my body was like, you're not okay. You know, you have got to be able to say this to yourself and to others. And you know, it's hard when people you know, even leaders who you like, to repair some things with, you know, or friends, will say things like, well, you know, I was going to say this, but I didn't, because of your trauma, you know, like people like afraid, tiptoeing, like you're a bomb that could explode. But really, it's a manipulative way of not moving towards repair. And wanting you to put on this face so they can feel better about themselves. And I think I was doing that in a lot of ways. You know, putting on this I'm okay face, and, you know, you do it for your kids and and all that as well, and you want to be able to just move on with your life. Yeah, my back and my shoulders are like, no, no. It's not that easy. You know? I think that's a blessing in a lot of ways, right? Because this stuff can you can hold in and lead to heart attacks. So my muscles are telling me, No, actually, you are tense as can be because you've been trying to be okay this whole time. Help other people be okay. But you know, I think that's another thing too. Is I'm trying to learn to listen to my body better, and journaling has really helped with that is to not keep acting like you're okay when you're not. Then
Joshua Johnson:let's get into some journaling. Because I think you've mentioned a few times it's been very key for you take us through a journaling practice. What what's a good journaling practice and why is it healing? What's helpful? Within journaling for us.
Aimee Byrd:Ah, man, well, I've always been, you know, I'm a writer, so journaling comes pretty naturally for me. And I'm not one who likes to follow a program, you know, I like to have a place that it kind of mentally gets me ready and, you know, 1530 minutes, depending on what's in your head that day. And some of it's just getting out dumb stuff that's circling around your head, you know. But then other parts of it are like getting out things that you you're afraid to say out loud, you know, it's okay, nobody's reading it out there. Or getting out like things that you're afraid to say to God, as if he doesn't know what's in there, you know? And I think that's where the Song of Songs has been so helpful for me, too. Because, you know, here we have this woman's voice representative of ours. And I'm like, wow, you can talk that way to God. She lays it out, you know, she talks about things. So I've been doing that more, and so it's weird, my journaling is kind of in and out with conversation with God as well, and trying to listen during that as well. So it can be very prayerful, but not in, you know, I kind of, I was just writing something about the book, and it was kind of a summation thing for my sub stack that I'm going to place later. But I remember growing up being taught like, you know, how to pray using acts and affirmation, confession, thankfulness, or whatever, as supplication. And I'm like, what bull crap, you know, like, so manipulative and fake and like, you know, it's just, like, do you talk to anyone else that way? You know, it's, we're not taught to pray like that in Scripture, like, it's just, it's it's just not personal. It's, you know, like worksheet you're filling out or something. It's formulaic. And so, you know, another thing that's really helped me is Teresa St. Teresa's the interior Castle is that what it's called her book really good. It's more mystical. But, you know, the premise behind it too, is that if God is within us as believers through His Holy Spirit, then in our being, somehow is God's tabernacle where he delights to be in. You know, he delights to be there. And so you know, her book is about helping you get to that core of communion with God who delights to dwell in you and in your neighbor. How amazing is that? And so there's another book called entering the castle. I want to say the author's name is Carolyn, miss, but I might have that wrong. That book is actually about doing the work. And so she's got a lot of journaling questions in there, and they're hard. They're facing yourself, kind of journaling questions. And you know, I remember one of them was like, name eight times you humiliated someone else or something like that. And I'm like, Oh, we better do that, you know? And I start writing, and I'm like, Oh, my goodness. Like, what have I? Who am, a lot, I found that kind of stuff extremely helpful. You know, it's just amazing. Like we all know that. You know, in your friendships and your even acquaintances, you can know something about someone that they don't really don't get about themselves pretty quickly and pretty easily, you know. And I mean, that's so crazy, isn't it? And to try to get in touch with that how other people perceive you, you things that you're projecting, that you just have no clue. And that's really where my face part gets into it too, you know, like that weird want. It's our honorable duty, special privilege, to help people dig their own selves out.
Joshua Johnson:That's so good. I think we we need to do that work. And if I thought early on that my body is a is a temple, right? This is what was told. I was like, Okay, I can't put anything bad in my body. I gotta be clean. I gotta make sure that I work out and God's gonna be okay with my body. But when Theresa vavila is talking about that, he delights in you already that the tabernacle is inside of you, and he already delights in you. That puts me in a different starting place of I'm already delighted in, and then I could start to move and figure out who I am, who I am, the one that God delights in. That's a huge different starting place than, isn't it what we were taught growing up?
Aimee Byrd:I know, I know, and it's, it's like, almost like we're afraid to teach that, you know, but I don't think it leads to bad behavior, you know, or Senate opposite. It
Joshua Johnson:makes me want to do better, right? But it's also. Freeze
Aimee Byrd:you to like, not judge yourself in all that, be more curious and and to be able, I think, to truly be repentant, you know, because you can make that turn, and it's okay to relearn and say, Oh, got that wrong, you know,
Joshua Johnson:I don't know why that's so hard, right? It's really hard. How can we, how can we physically work on our faces that we can start to be a face that delights in other people, that is the face of Christ. I know that some people see my face and I look angry. They think I'm mad at them or something, because I have, you know, a face that doesn't always project delight and love. How can I work on my face? How could I get it better so I could be better for other people? Yeah, well,
Aimee Byrd:I won't think you want to put something on that's not there, right? But one thing I talk about in the book is this idea of benediction. And you know, we have that as part of our worship service. The end of the service, you see it in numbers where, you know, one of the great blessings in the benediction is May God's face shine upon you. And what does that mean? You know, why do we really want that like that makes my heart kind of leap a little bit to think about. And so, you know, even if something is simple, I think, and Emmanuel Levinas talks about this, when we encounter another face, we actually can strip that face naked and get behind their countenance. But what we find is they're vulnerable, right? Like in that moment, we could liquidate that person, and everybody holds that, and we all know it, and that's why we put these defenses up, right? And so he calls the commandment of God, and the face is, Thou shalt not kill. When we see another face, we are awakened to that commandment. And that's what he calls like. Our whole righteousness of being like the book is called, is it righteous to be like? That's a question, right? And for him, it is yes, because my face awakens you and really to love, right? The opposite side of Thou shalt not kill is to bless, to love, which is what God does, which is what we are to do, and it's the greatest commandment, right? The second one like it is to love your neighbor as yourself. And that's because that is loving God with all our and with all our mind, because he's in them. I think that something very simple is in our benediction, when we meet faces with somebody else that to really show It's good that you're alive. I'm happy to see you, to give that kind of blessing. And I even that sounds fabulous, but what does that look like for your enemies, you know, being real, you know. And so I journal like, I share journal entries in the book. And, you know, I journal through that a little bit like, what would it look like if I were to see this elder who said this about me when I ran into them, you know, like, and, you know, even some basic recognition. And I had to do that work before I would run into them, basic recognition, that God is kind to this person. God is kind to this person. How can I recognize that in my face? How can I recognize that in my interaction, in my countenance, even in an exchange, you know, even if there are no words given, but you know, there's a humility that happens when I think about that right, and I have the opportunity to liquidate that person, but that's the blessing, is just recognizing, you know, in that relationship God is kind of that person. So I think that it's not as easy as just saying this everybody with your face, you know, but it's real work, and it's different, because we're humans and we're unique and wonderful and complicated and complex. So I think it's great to be able to think through those things
Joshua Johnson:help us as fighting polarized American Oh, man, people, yeah, to be to be better, to figure out how we could, how we could see everybody Well, the problem everybody's an enemy at the moment, like everybody's an enemy, and we're starting, we start out shouting, and so what? What's the work that we have to do to counteract that? Yeah, come in a different posture to then maybe diffuse something so we could start to see each other again.
Aimee Byrd:Yeah, see each other again. I like that. I mean, this is above my pay grade, but you know, each one of us really does have to do that individual work. And you know, I have some strong conviction, convictions politically. And you know, within my own family, there are. Are strongly different conviction and extended family. So I think that's where I start first, because that's the hardest and within myself. But then also to be like, All right, here's a person that I know and love, and I don't think they're idiots. They have many, many great values and intelligence. And obviously I can't understand how these things go together, you know. But to try to see like okay, where to ask good questions, you know, and to recognize what values do connect and then to say, like, well, we share this value however, you know, this is how I see it play out. And this is how you see it play out, you know. But I think that's it is so hard. Like, I mean, there are plenty of times where it's just like better to not talk about politics with some people so that I can still love them. You know? Well, I feel like I can also say I still value this person so much. There's other things I can learn from this person still too, and God is kind to them.
Joshua Johnson:So this is what happens when, when our identity and belonging happen and we get caught up into something that is fleeting, that could actually go away. Then when it does go away, then we have to try to figure out who we are again and again and again and again, and so we get scared. I think we're running on fear, like the whole the whole world is running on fear at the moment, and so, because we are so fearful, how do we move towards the face of Jesus, and how does that encounter help us dispel some of that fear and to receive His love so that We can be people of love,
Aimee Byrd:yeah, well, and we have to face our fear. I think we covered like we stuff the fear down, and we cover it up with all these things that we think will fix it, but we don't actually face the fear itself. What is the core of that fear? And sometimes we'll face the surface of it, but not really what's behind it, and that's where I think the journal work is really helpful, too. But to be able to say I'm terrified, why am I? Why am I terrified? And and to really work that out, and let's go worst case scenario of what I'm terrified of, who will I be then, and will God be there? Who will be there? You know? So I think that we get caught in this loop of fear and trying to get past the fear, when really we need to face the fear, you know, ask some of those more existential questions that we can even find meaningfulness there where we are now, and we have to be in this place now. We can't get past it. So what does that mean for us? You
Joshua Johnson:talked about journaling a lot, and that's one way that we could start to find the face of Jesus and that he could encounter us. Are there any other practices that could help us find his face, where he could find us, and we could actually realize that he's, he is actually looking at us.
Aimee Byrd:Yeah. I mean, I would hope church, you know, I would really hope church. And, you know, even in our liturgies, it's designed to do that right, to show us Christ, to give us Christ, and the, you know, means of grace in his preached word and in the sacraments, that's something I really valued from my other denomination. But now I see as well that he's not just contained in these sacraments. He's walking on the street right next to me, you know, my my neighbor and my neighbor. So I think is in that loving others that we're called to do. It's hard, you know, and so looking for Christ is really helpful, but it is also the blessing. So I in our relationships, in our encounters during the day, to be awakened, to see Christ at work, and then such a huge thing to help me in healing and growing is beauty. You know, it's all around us. It's so powerful. And you know, some others and philosophers talk about beauty is actually an invitation to walk in goodness, to walk in truth, you know, and to see beauty in that way. I definitely see God in that you not just as the creator you know, which is wonderful, but as a beckoner, you know. And sometimes beauty is. As simple as me being out on my front stoop and, you know, seeing some animal, like, you know, funny bird thing or squirrel or, you know, beautiful sunset. But other times it's beauty and moving out of my comfort zone and and sitting next to somebody suffering, you know, and finding beauty happening in that, in the witness, you know. I think with this is holiness, you know. So to really look at, okay, it's not just the bread and the wine that's been blessed on Sunday morning. That's holy, you know. But it's this encounter with this person right now, or this encounter with nature right now, like God isn't just contained in those other things. Well,
Joshua Johnson:thank you for encountering me in this holy space, and this is a holy encounter, and so I appreciate that. What would you have hopes for for your readers that would pick up your book? Saving Face? I
Aimee Byrd:would love for people to do book clubs with it, because I just feel like it's a stimulator of conversation. I feel like it can be such a good tool to get people to start journaling, to get people to start thinking about their own memories and why they're significant in their life, and how, you know, help them become the type of person they are, or to want to be able to talk with others in a safe place about, oh, you know, I'm starting to see too, like this persona versus what's down deep in me. And I want to be some of that out, you know. So I hope that it can really promote also just reaching out of our own little bubbles of whatever denominations we're in, even, even how it's so connected to politics now, but to to reach out of our little bubbles and to see the goodness that's around us as well, and to be able to communicate better in that way.
Joshua Johnson:And people will love the cover of the book. I love the cover. It's so good. It's so good. Wayne
Aimee Byrd:brzezinka, we hired an artist out of Tennessee. He's amazing. It was actually three dimensional. What he made? Yeah, he's a cool guy, man, yeah, that's
Joshua Johnson:amazing. Uh huh, yeah, if Yeah, can people get that too? Can they get a print of that cover?
Aimee Byrd:Oh yeah. Wayne brzezinka Art maybe.com or just waynebrazyka.com and he's got some really amazing work on there to look
Joshua Johnson:at, awesome that's good. Any recommendations for us, anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend, of course.
Aimee Byrd:Well, I mean, I've just been really digging deeper into the mystics, like I would love for people to read Teresa of Avila, like that would be really helpful, I think, but also a book that I another foundational book for writing this one was CS Lewis's novel, till we have faces and the encounter there at the end of the book, but the whole novel is so good, so it would be a really, I think you're better than a companion to reading saving face, it's really what provoked me. So, yeah, there's two things
Joshua Johnson:nice so, so go get saving face. It's a fantastic read. I really love I mean, as you have always, I love your writing, and love the way that you write, especially in this book that the journal entries and just the way that you've put things in there, it just feels very It feels like we're encountering your face in the midst of this book, which is is wonderful. It helps us open up and free ourselves to know that we could be a little bit more vulnerable, that we could say, Hey, we've actually put on faces that are not our own, that we need to figure out how to take those off. And it's a wonderful, wonderful book that I hope a lot of people get. How can people get it? And is there anywhere else you'd like to point people to?
Aimee Byrd:Yeah, well, I mean, I have a landing page for it, saving facebook.com, you can go on Amazon, you can go on Barnes and Noble, but there's, I think all the links are on there. If you do pre order it before April 8, you can be a part. You get some different bonuses. But one of them that I'm excited about is you get to be a part of a book club on my sub stack, which is bird in your box at sub stack.com but I think that's going to be a lot of fun. I think it's going to bring people together and get them talking like the way it's the way, ways that I'm hoping that people will when they read the book. So nice.
Joshua Johnson:That's good. Well, I subscribed to your sub stack, and so I think other people should do that as well. Amy, thank you for this conversation. Thank You that we could figure out how we could actually encounter the face of Jesus, so that we can figure out who we truly are, that we could become people that reflect his face, that then we could see the goodness in other people's faces, that we could know that they are made in the image of God, that there's belovedness within them as well, and the graciousness and goodness of of Jesus, even when they're our enemy and it's difficult for us, and thank. For, for diving into like practices, like journaling, and how that has helped heal our yourself. And then it could help heal us as we walk through the places where man, these are the places we need healing. And we could have some, some prayer time, listening to God in that space, and we figure out, hey, how do I heal? And where do I go from here you were on a year ago, and something has has shifted in you from a year ago that has given you there's a little there's a little more softness and love in you than before, which it was there before, but I've seen, I don't know, maybe you have encountered the face of Jesus in deep, deep ways, a
Aimee Byrd:little bit. Thank you. I appreciate you noticing and telling me that, because I sure you know, can't measure those things. Yeah, it's quite a compliment to hear that. Thank you. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson:well, thanks for this conversation. That's great. All right, hopefully we'll talk again. Yes, you.
