Shifting Culture
Shifting Culture
Ep. 308 Emanuel Prinz - What Actually Starts Movements
In this conversation with Emanuel Prinz, we dig into his latest research, exploring what actually catalyzes movements, the kinds of leaders and teams that sustain them, and what blocks them from taking root. We’ll talk about the personal and spiritual qualities of movement catalysts, why reproducibility matters more than charisma, and how partnering with God, rather than simply following a method—is essential to see lasting fruit. Along the way, we wrestle with questions of multiplication, DNA, and the risks of bottleneck leadership. If you care about genuine spiritual movement, if you want to see communities transformed and leaders multiplied, not just in theory but in practice, you won’t want to miss this episode. So join us because this conversation is packed with wisdom and hard-won insight for anyone longing to shift culture in meaningful ways.
DR. EMANUEL PRINZ has partnered with God to start a movement in North Africa and speaks from personal experience. He has researched kingdom Christian movements across the globe for fifteen years. Currently, he serves ministries worldwide as an expert movement consultant, coach, trainer, and researcher, facilitating their progression toward movements. Through his Exponential Disciple-Making and MOVES Coaching trainings, more than 12,000 leaders in over fifty countries have been equipped.
Prinz has taught at Columbia International University, the European School for Culture and Theology, and Bethany Global University. He is the author of Movement Catalysts and numerous articles in journals such as Missiology, Evangelical Missions Quarterly, Global Missiology, Journal of the Evangelical Missiological Society, Mission Frontiers, as well as in Christianity Today. Above all, he seeks to live as the Father’s beloved.
He blogs at www.catalyticleadership.info.
Emanuel's Book:
What Actually Starts Movements
Emanuel's Recommendation:
Subscribe to Our Substack: Shifting Culture
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.
Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTube
Consider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below
Through meaningful interviews and heartfelt conversations, Friar Time, hosted by Fr....
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
The desire of effective catalyst for God, for God himself, to know him more deeply, to love him more deeply, to follow him more closely, is a stronger desire than wanting to see ministry fruit so they see God first and above all. You. Man.
Joshua Johnson:Hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we could make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. Today, I'm joined by Emmanuel Prins. Emanuel's journey began as a young seminary student unexpectedly captivated by a single lecture on people movements. That moment set him on a path that's taken him from refugee centers in Germany to unengaged people groups in Sudan and eventually into the heart of global research. What sets Emmanuel apart isn't just the depth of his experience. It's the way he blends careful, data driven research with a relentless hunger for God's presence and a commitment to real, reproducible transformation, instead of Quick Fix formulas or chasing ministry trends, Emmanuel has poured years into understanding what truly sparks and sustains movements where disciples make disciples, leaders, develop leaders, and churches plant churches, often in the world's most challenging environments. In this conversation, we dig into his latest research exploring what actually catalyzed movements, the kinds of leaders and teams that sustain them, and what blocks them from taking root. We'll talk about the personal and spiritual qualities of movement catalysts, why reproducibility matters more than charisma, and how partnering with God rather than simply following a method is essential to see lasting fruit along the way, we wrestle with questions of multiplication, DNA and the risks of bottleneck. Leadership, if you care about genuine spiritual movement, if you want to see communities transformed and leaders multiplied, not just in theory, but in practice, you won't want to miss this. So join us as we find wisdom and insight for anyone longing to shift culture in meaningful ways. Here is my conversation with Emmanuel Prins. Emmanuel, welcome to shifting culture. So excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.
Emanuel Prinz:Well, thank you for having me. Joshua, I look forward to this time you can ask me anything. You will get an honest answer.
Joshua Johnson:Sounds good? We love honest answers and good conversation. So we're gonna have a good conversation around movements, movement blockers that don't actually catalyze movement, movement boosters that do catalyze movement. So because we're gonna have a movement conversation, let's define movement. What is a movement? What are we talking about? What are we trying to catalyze?
Emanuel Prinz:So when I speak to a broader audience, typically, I say a movement is where disciples make disciples, and leaders develop leaders and churches plant churches. If you are interested in a more technical definition, then it includes the element of rapid replication to the fourth generation or beyond, and in multiple streams. So these are the kinds of movements that I have looked into with my research. And when we're going to talk about movements, these are the dimension of movements that we have in mind. And when we talk about catalysts, it speaks of the primary influencer and pioneer who who ignited this kind of movement. Give
Joshua Johnson:me a little bit of your background and your story of how you got fascinated with movements, got into this place of of researching and wanting to see movements catalyzed.
Emanuel Prinz:So I'm it's 1994 I'm a young seminary students first semester introduction to missiology, and our missiology professor gives us one lecture, 4550 minutes on what was known as the time, as people movements. And I'm just absolutely intrigued. It's the first time in my life I heard here the world movement in a Christian context. And I'm thinking, why hasn't every missionary that has come to our church talked about movements. Why am I hearing about this now? I was so fascinated that I drove to a university library that I knew has every book on missiology and theology published in the English language, and I found out about a handful titles that contained movement in the title, borrowed them, photocopied every page, and that was basically my preparation, my most significant preparation, for field ministry in Sudan among an unengaged people group, and informed our strategy when we first started. So that was to put it into context. Before David Garrison booklet on church planting movements was first published in 1998 we were totally unaware of that at the time. So
Joshua Johnson:what was going on? Then, when you went into a totally unengaged people group and you started thinking about movement dynamics, what was happening? What did you discover as you started to work these things out?
Emanuel Prinz:Well, the first thing I need to mention is a prayer. And I don't say this, you know, just as to preface it the Christian way, I was quite a shy young man at the time, so not the break through the walls guy at all. And so I said, Lord, I'm ready. I want to see this. I'm committing myself to you, but I honestly have no clue how you could ever use me. And so that was my prayer journey. I took small steps forward without really having the confidence that God could ever use me for anything significant. And yet, I took these small steps of obedience, as much as I had clarity, you know, started discipling people in my home church started reaching Muslims in Germany, in asylum homes where refugee seekers were were living, and just these small steps. And so I prayed at one point, say, Father, you gave Paul this blank promise, basically, when he was in Ephesus, where, where he was just getting started, and God says, Paul. He says two things to Paul in a vision or dream in the night, he says, Paul, I have a big people in this city, and that that time, there wasn't any breakthrough yet. So this, this was a prophetic word, and no one is going to harm you. Just, you know, just keep ministering. And I said, when I read this, I said, Father, this is Paul. You gave him something like this. If Paul needed it, I needed 10 times more. Would you grant me something like this? And the very same night, I did have a dream, and in that dream, God revealed to me a part a certain region and showed me that, and he, he revealed to me that he would write church history and do something significant in that part of Sudan. So that informed, my well informed is not is wrong. That was the basis of my prayers from that day on, and that that was the basis of our team's vision. It was God said, there is going to be a movement. So there will be a movement. We don't know if, in five years we we thought more, and it would take us 20 years of sowing on the ground, you know, sowing gospel seeds, talking about Jesus, doing compassion ministry, serving the felt needs of the people. And maybe in 20 years, this at the moment, so unreceptive Muslim people would maybe open up after 20 years, that was sort of our horizon. Prayer
Joshua Johnson:was was really important, that you knew that God promises this movement, what was happening then? We
Emanuel Prinz:always ask the question, if we're going to see a movement in 20 years, what do we need to do now? And one thing that was evident at the beginning, we will only see a movement if we win over the key influences, the man in authority, the gatekeepers of that society, and that is where the political leaders, they were called sheikhs, the village chiefs, that were the religious leaders, the imams in the mosque. And because we're here in the Civil War context, there was also a rebel army. And so basically, we needed to have the favor of the higher level, higher ranking officers of the rebel army. And so we went into this region that God had showed me in a dream and tried to befriend these, I mean, Muslim societies, all men, right, these men in authority, and not only befriend them, but introduce ourselves from the first encounter as as people of faith. So, you know, they knew white people. There were NGOs in the country, but most of these other white people were secular. So we wanted to make it clear from the beginning, we don't want it. Didn't want to sneak that in sort of at a later point that we are followers of Jesus. So we would meet, for example, a group of Shays and say, you know, we're here because we want to serve you and your communities, and we serve God. So we would like to talk with you, you know, What? What? What are your biggest needs? What is on your heart to do you for your people, and then we can talk, you know, how we might serve you and collaboratively build something for you. So first encounter, first introductions, and we had not given them gospel, but we had basically revealed our spiritual identity, winning the the influences of. Society over and starting with the So beginning with the end in mind, basically you say, you know if it's going to be a movement in 20 years, that means now we need to befriend the key influences of society. Then after we befriend them, or as we befriend them, we reveal our spiritual identity. And after we have done that, that leads automatically to spiritual conversations. And there we were very, you know, free, although this is again Civil War, there's big brother that's watching. We need to be aware of that. But how can Jesus be good news to these which means, basically, we try to find a receptor oriented language that wasn't offensive to Muslims that spoke their religious jargon, you know, used their concept they believed in already spoke about their prophets that they believed in, Moses, Abraham, David and so forth, and then Built the bridge to be Jesus, and then found ways. Well, how is Jesus? Good news to them. So these were some of the key building stones at the early stages. And
Joshua Johnson:it started to build. Things started to happen. Now, let's zoom out so you see some some movement happening. What is happening around the world? Like, what is the state of movements today like? So that was almost 30 years ago. What is the state of movements around the world look like today?
Emanuel Prinz:We see more and more movements. I write about the detail to numbers figures in the book. I haven't internalized all of them, but basically, you know, if the reports are accurate, we may have today about 115 Jesus followers who follow Jesus in a movemental expression of Christianity. And this number grows exponentially. So we're at a threshold where, you know every again, depending on you count, where you count, but probably at least every seventh evangelical in the world you know follows Jesus in the context of of a national disciple making or church planting movement. So this is, this is significant, and growth continues. I
Joshua Johnson:mean, that is a as a big number one in seven that are following Jesus within a movement. And so one of the ways that we should probably figure out like so what is happening, what is going on, and what actually catalyzes movements? So what was your role? I know that you started to research movements to see what actually works within movements, and how do we catalyze those things and what stops them? What What were you doing? What was your research? And what kinds of movements Did you research?
Emanuel Prinz:The Journey behind the research, in brief, is that, after we saw breakthrough, that's how it works in the Christian world, wherever there's success, there's interest. So, you know, others asked me to mentor me. My organizational leaders asked me to create a training, and I was very happy to do that. We did as a team, evaluate regularly, to distill, you know, what were the principles behind this? How was God at work, and what were our best practices. But I wasn't content with that, because that might have been the right strategy for a Muslim people group in Sudan. But something else, you know, it wouldn't be probably as helpful in other places, was my thinking. So that set me on a journey and created the interest in me, and I was just so curious, and wanted to know, what are the factors across the globe that ignite movements, what are factors that start movements, that boost them, and what are blockers in some other places where movements are not happening at all, or are hampered by various hindering factors. So that set me on a journey. And when I say me, I gathered a research team. So we were I was joined by some world class researchers from, you know, top universities, specialist and qualitative research, a specialist in quantitative research, and in the project that is the basis for the book, we looked in 147 movements and at least 200 to 22 different people groups across the six megacultures in the world. So we wanted this to be a large sample. And we wanted this to be a representative sample from basically, simply speaking, all continents as
Joshua Johnson:you were getting this research in what were some of the the first findings, the things that you're you were saying that these are some of the factors that are happening around the. World, around the globe and these different movements. Well,
Emanuel Prinz:what stood out Joshua was the remarkable similarity of effective movement catalysts of the set of qualities that all movement catalysts share in common. So when you look into movements, God uses a variety of different methods to start movements. You know, DMM disciple making movements is, is, is very, very widespread, for example. But then there are others. You know, there is T 40, there is four fields. There is people who refer to CPM as as Garrison describes it in his books. And there are other hybrid, hybrid methods, where people say, I learned a little from that. I learned a little from this, and then we applied it to our unique contact. But a variety of different methods. Wherever you see a movement, you will find a certain person, a leader, a man or woman of God, that is characterized by certain qualities, and to find that in such clarity, frankly, you know, I, as a researcher, I had a hunch that there would be Something like this, but I was stunned. I was stunned. So I will illustrate this. So if you Joshua and I, you know, met like, you know, three or four of these, and we sat down in a coffee shop and had a chat, they would all have their unique personalities, or personal, you know, idiosyncrasies, and they would have their cultural distinctives, but say there's one from, you know, a village in rural Kenya, there is one from a small island in Indonesia, there is one from a metropolis in India. All of them would share a set of personality traits and character traits and a set of ministry competencies. I call them the catalytic qualities, and and, and have them in common at a at a significant level. And the other thing is, we also did a control group study. In other words, we also researched comparative ministry situations and their Pioneer leaders that were either in exactly the same context as where the movement occurs, or a proximity and similar context. And so we could distinguish and say, what is it that distinguishes effective catalyst from non catalyst? So that is really the the number one finding that stood out to me that wherever you see a movement, you will find a certain type of catalyst.
Joshua Johnson:If people are are listening to this there, I think there's a couple of questions that people are listening one like, what are these characteristics? Do I have them if I want to catalyze movement, is that something that I possess? And so give me some of these characteristics.
Emanuel Prinz:So there are certain personality qualities. I'll just share them with you, sort of in a short list, and then, then feel free you can tell us where you want to go deeper and they include, you know, one of them is radical learning. They're radical learners. They go into every situation to learn something new with the expectation. So, you know, I would go into this conversation here with you with the expectation that I'm going to learn with you and from you. Innovation is another one, a drive to achieve. There is high level of conscientiousness in them. There is a personal agency, in other words, a conviction that really life is shaped largely by the decisions and choices that we make. And then there are traits like agreeableness and persistence. So these would be in the category of personality qualities. Now, I know most people expect certain spiritual qualities, and they're there as well, but I want to emphasize it is not just certain spiritual qualities. There is the personality as well as the social what we call social influence competency. So what includes the some of the spiritual qualities, the first one is a deep hunger for God. What is this surprising, and maybe not surprising to some, is that the desire of effective catalyst for God, for God himself, to know him more deeply, to love him more deeply to follow him more closely. Is a stronger desire than wanting to see ministry fruit. So they see God first and above all, they listening to God. That is a posture. You could describe it as a posture in their heart, active, listening to God on on a regular. Daily basis, and, of course, at Big junctions, especially, but as a really, as a regular practice, there is expectant faith. So that is similar to the story, which is my personal story. And I find this interesting in story after story. You know, they seek God, particularly for revelation, for their own ministry and the Ministry of their teams. And they seek God for His heart and and his plans for the people group or the population segment that they are called to. And in many cases, they report that God gives them revelation, through prophetic words, through dreams, through Scripture. You know, it's through a internal discernment process where they all pray together. The avenues are different, but God does speak and so on that they build expectant faith. God is going to break through. We will see a movement. God is going to do it, and then others spiritual qualities include confidence in local disciples and confidence in the Bible as the primary discipleship tool. And lastly, a tangible love, a tangible, tangibly expressed love for the people that they are serving. So not just the motivation to say we love them, and therefore we share Jesus with them, but they have the ability to express a love in tangible ways, so that people do experience being loved by them. Shall I also quickly walk through the social influence competencies and just mention them?
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, I mentioned them. That would be helpful catalyst. Have
Emanuel Prinz:an inspiring personality. Don't have to expire explain, explain that in detail. They know how to inspire a shared vision with their teams and colleagues. They have the skill to influence others beliefs. So they don't merely share their testimony, but they really shape the beliefs of others, there is a strong element of assertiveness in them, and they know how to disciple in transformational ways. And lastly, they're very empowering as leaders. So they empower disciples from early on and their teammates and partners as well.
Joshua Johnson:Are these catalysts? Are you looking at individuals? Are there any distinctives within teams that are boosting movements, catalyzing movements? Is it something where you need one individual like this, or is it a team dynamic? What does it look like for movements to start? The
Emanuel Prinz:answer, Joshua, it's both ends. It does need a tin opener or a can opener, I guess you say in America, in order to open a can. And a catalyst is kind of a can opener, you can't open a can with a fork or with a spoon. It just doesn't work. However, all catalysts work with teams and or partners, close in close collaboration. So everyone has a different approach, but most of them work with rather small teams. The pattern that I have detected is that they ask themselves the question, what kind of gifting is needed for a pioneering situation. And that typically includes, you know, that apostolic element, which often is in the effective catalyst. It needs the evangelistic element. It needs a teaching disciple making element. It needs the prayer element. And many of them, not all of them, report that there is also a prophetic element that that speaks God's perspective into the ministry. So in other words, I think many of them, all of them, work with a team, but many of them try to keep the team small, so it doesn't, you know, become an entity. We've both worked overseas, right? And I have experienced that a team can become big and become like a social compound, where so much energy that just keeps it goes into maintaining the social compound, rather than the catalytic effect into the community.
Joshua Johnson:As movement starts, leaders are raised up. You have indigenous leaders, your discovery groups and things are happening. There's movement happening. Do these catalysts help sustain the movement long term, or are there other character qualities or qualities needed later, in later stages of movements that the catalysts may need to bring in for some more support? Well, that's
Emanuel Prinz:a multifaceted question. There are stages, and if we're talking about an external catalyst or catalytic team, certain. Suddenly, the role of them changes over time and the emphasis so I think many of us are aware, for example, of a simple model that depicts, as well, the mall level model, where, at initial stage, you know the catalyst, have the initial catalytic impact, and and as soon as they are the first disciples, they model what life in Christ means. So the the upward component, how to relate to God, but also the the the horizontal component, the ministry context, they do model that, but then they go quickly into sort of the background mode and rather assist the first group of disciples to do the ministry themselves, the watch in the background, and at some at some point, start gradually pulling out. So if we want to relate this to the essential catalytic qualities, I think the two that are most relevant here is transformational disciple making. So that means how effective catalyst exhibit they are engaged in disciple making in ways that changes both the character as well as the spiritual practices of disciples. And then the second one is empowering. They empower the they empower the young disciples. So even you know the baby Christians, they empower them from the first day, which means it's not the external catalyst who is in charge. It is the very first nucleus of the young baby church that is in charge. You know, it's your people group, it's your movement, it's your task, it's your God given assignment to reach your community. We are here to assist you in the process of doing that. So that is a very strongly empowering process that starts on day one. It's not like, oh, we give these group of people, you know, a chance to grow up to, to become firm and strong in their faith, and then they start the ministry. No, no, actually, we challenge them from the point of, as they journey to Christ, even to start sharing what they're what they're discovering about Jesus.
Joshua Johnson:I know of people as they're trying to catalyze movement. The multiplication of leaders and disciples is really it's kind of difficult to multiply out to the next generation. They hold on too long. Maybe they do something. What are some multiplication? What's multiplication? DNA, like, what's the DNA of multiplication to multiply leaders and disciples into next generations so it continues? One
Emanuel Prinz:thing I've learned from the research is that there are four dimensions of disciple making that need to be considered to ensure that the disciple making process is actually reproducible. Four M's, the messenger, the message, the methods and the materials. So let's run through them very briefly. First of all, we talked about modeling just a moment ago. The messenger himself needs to reproduce himself or themselves, and that means, typically, two elements, the lifestyle is attractive. It's a model that people want to follow. It's attractive to those who are outside of the kingdom they see their lives and say, Oh, that is the kind of life I would like to have as well. Related to that is that the life they live is visible. So, you know, this only works when I'm in your living room and you're in my living room, and we do send things together. This doesn't happen, you know, if it's a segregated discipleship meeting where we meet together in a separate room for one hour a week. So share, sharing of life and sharing a life that is an attractive one, that's one the message needs to be reproducible, which, in most cases, has three elements, the MA, the message needs to appeal to felt needs. Oh, you know, I have these issues in my life. I'm aware of it. Oh, really, what this guy is sharing could be an answer for that. Secondly, it is often in story form. We all love stories, and stories are easy to tell. And then a third aspect is that it can be passed on. It's it's simple, it's a simple message. So in our movement in Sudan, one of the village chiefs stood up and one day in front of, you know, 50 others, and said, brothers, oh, this is and he was referring to the gospel message. He said, You know, honestly, the old system. And he referred to Islam, I never really under. Understood it. But this is a simple system. This is a simple message. I understand it. So he was ready to, you know, able to articulate it and pass it on. So the messenger, the message, the methods and basically, the key question is to ask for a catalyst, the way you and I do ministry together. Could you replicate what we're doing together here, without me in a new place? If the answer is no, then it's not simple and reproducible enough. Then we need to simplify things further. And then finally, the methods. And again, the key is, are the methods, methods pass honorable. So in other words, when let's assume for a moment, I'm discipling you, and I could come up with a fancy discipleship course, for example, which works perfectly for you. But the question is, I have in mind not only you as my disciple. I'm thinking, who is Joshua gonna disciple? Can he use the resource that we're using for our discipleship relationship? Can he use that same resource to disciple his next generation disciples? If it's no, then I then we need to pick something else that is pass onable, that is simple enough so that you could use it for you, for your own network and for your own disciple making method. So four dimensions, the messenger, the message, the methods and the materials need to be simple and pass on double enough so that disciple making becomes reproducible.
Joshua Johnson:All right, you said catalyst. Some of these personal attributes are attractiveness. They have an attractive personality. People want to follow them and be around them. How does that work? When you want to try to make things simple, to be able to pass on you're saying some of these methods, can you replicate what I have been doing? Some people are like, I don't have the type of character that this catalyst has, so I'm not confident in passing it along. How do we deal with the actual like character attributes of catalysts, and then maybe their first followers and people other down the line that don't have the same types of qualities. How do those get passed on? Well,
Emanuel Prinz:that is a good point. Joshua, and when I first started out as a discipler, I didn't get that right. You know, so big picture that we had the first group of of people who made a commitment the first house church, and they would have lots of questions. Of course, they do. And what would they do? They would come to me as their discipler and bring these questions. And of course, you know, I had studied theology, and I had been reading the Bible for 10 plus years every day, so I had good answers to most of their questions. But then one day I realized, oh my Emmanuel, you are the bottleneck of this. You know, as more and more people are coming into the kingdom, do you want all of them to come to you and you will answer all of their questions? And that realization brought about a paradigm shift. So one radical change I made is I stopped answering all questions, and instead I would point them to Scripture. So, you know, let's say someone had a conflict with his brother. I would say, All right, you know, how about you read a Matthew 18, these verses, this, this the, you know what Jesus talks about, reconciliation. And then you ask Jesus what your role is in your conflict with your brother, and what you can do from your end to re establish the relationship and resolve the conflict. So one answer to your question is, you're exactly right. It mustn't all be carried in the catalyst. The catalyst must bind Thai disciples to the Bible and not to himself. That is one. The other is that a catalyst is as much as is culturally appropriate, very transparent. So I mean Case in point here I told you at the beginning of our conversation how in my mid 20s, I was a shy young man. I had no courage, I had no boldness, I was fearful. I was just lacked self confidence, and I lacked confidence that came from my walk with the Lord. I just lacked this. So I mentioned this to you, you know, and catalysts have the freedom to not wear a mask or be a persona, but basically transparently, tell disciples how they deal with fear. And so you know, all right, I understand you're afraid. Uh, you know, to share, you want to share with your parents about what you found in Jesus, and I understand you are afraid. I want to tell you I've been in the same situation. Let's talk to to Jesus about this. You know, let's just expect that specifically he will strengthen your courage. Let's go, go quickly to Joshua, who was also fearful, and listen what God said to him. And maybe you find something that God speaks also to your heart in this situation. So here it, you know, it's kind of a triangle situation. The catalyst is a role model and example and inspiring, but at the same time, that's not the only link. The other link is that the new disciple in his relationship with God looks to God for provision, for what's he needs, and then is grounded in the Bible. So
Joshua Johnson:you move it towards the Bible. And one of the the things and the factors you talk about movement is there's a discovery based approach. And so, how do you help people? What is discovery for people? Why does discovery work? And how do we keep it in you know, tied to the Bible.
Emanuel Prinz:Why? Why does discovery work? We know from adult education, that we own truth that we have discovered for ourselves much more deeply than we own truth that is taught to us. And that's a that's a universal, uh, principle, you know, that is true for for for all cultures. The second is what we just actually covered here, because the discovery process doesn't tie the new disciple to his discipler, to a preacher who is charismatic on the pulpit, on on, on, on Sunday morning, or whenever, or to a set of doctrines of our particular church, but it grounds the new disciple in the Bible, in God's word, directly. And that is a dynamic. I mean, honestly, I was, I was part of, was in a church just very recently, and and talked to an elder gentleman and and, and just realized he hadn't learned a thing about how to go to the Bible and and interpret it for himself. He has relied on devotionals Sunday mornings and and whatnot all his life. But you know, to answer simple what we call inductive Bible study questions no one had ever equipped him, and there he is at the age of 78 you know, having this as a disciple for 60 years with discovery from even before they make a commitment to Christ. People are grounded in the in the scriptures and learn these very basic but simple enough discovery questions like, what do we learn about God? What do we learn about people? Is there an example positive that we can follow or a negative that we can avoid? How can we follow this so that is significantly influencing shaping the spiritual formation of the disciples in a positive way. As another aspect that is inherent in the discovery model is how the faith spreads. So let's contrast it, maybe for a moment, with the attraction model. So there is seeker, John, your or my friend, and we say, come to our church, or even come to our home group, whatever you call it, small group, discipleship group, you know, come and join us. What happens? Well, he may, you know, be one for Christ and decide to follow Christ, great. But what is the potential in this situation that got lost so in discipleship group approach, I would say, hey, that is great, John, and I'm ready to go to Scripture with you and find answers to your question. Now one question to you, John, who in your network, your family, your extended family, your friends, might be interested or benefit from the things that we have been discovering together. He may mention one name or two name or several names. Well, how about if you invited these guys to your home, and you did the same what we have been doing here, and boom, we jump into a new social network. You know, had I invited John to my home group or my Sunday morning service, we would have not tapped into these networks.
Joshua Johnson:You've done all this research and said. These are the factors. And somebody reading this might say, all I have to do is I just have to follow a step, A, B, C, and we're going to have a movement. But one of the things that you do say as well is that it's not a particular method. We can't just follow, you know these steps, but there is a guiding principles, and we have followed the lead of the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit is doing something in that place. How do we become more principle based in the way that we work, rather than a methodological approach to just doing a, b and c to make it work. The subtitle
Emanuel Prinz:of the book is partnering with God for Kingdom multiplication. What actually starts movement? Partnering with God for Kingdom multiplication. So let me apply this maybe to to our call that we're having, yeah. So I would say to the audience, oh no, by no means I'm saying everything that the research found, everything I write in the book, everything Joshua and I discussing here, turn around and do it one on one. No, no, absolutely not. What would I say? And that is an answer to your question. Joshua, I would say, after you've listened to our podcast here, pause and say, Father, what of this is for me? And maybe something becomes clear. And if you feel compelled and say, there's value for this, you know, for my ministry team, or for my group of closest colleagues, then why don't you take that to them, and you do have a group conversation again, with the prayer and the discernment to say for our unique context, for our unique challenges, what of this would help us break through Growth barriers, and then anything that goes shows, be absolutely, radically obedient to what he shows us, follow through with it. You know, don't give up after you have done it twice and it doesn't work. You know, give only up after you've tried at least 50 times, and it still doesn't work. But it is what God is showing you and how God is inspiring you to take steps, because he is, I mean, he is with us, right? We believe that. And I know, as I say this, we believe this. We all have the cognitive belief in our heads. The question is, you know, how practically does that translate to my lifestyle or affect my lifestyle? So I start the day Joshua, literally every morning, my call it devotions, my time with God, focused on God in the quiet of the morning, and I, i i Hold, hold on to God's hand. So I sit there here, you know, and it expresses to me that I want to step into this day holding the Father's hand. I will go with him into every situation now that includes an element of preparedness. So one of the prayers I pray every morning is that I say, Father, what is most essential for me today. And typically I write down one or two things before I even boot my computer and start my work day. So that gives me direction for the day. But then again, the expression to say, now I have meetings. Now I meet people. Now I engage in certain projects or tasks or planning meetings. Again, you know, with the expectation, Father, I look to you, there are 100 good things that I could be doing help me to discern what is most essential for me, for us right now that
Joshua Johnson:shifts and changes everything, if we could get it from the cognitive brain side of our knowledge into a lived, embodied experience with God that we hear from him, we obey Him. We walk in step with him. That requires an intimacy with God that will actually then catalyze movements we partner with him, which I think is a beautiful thing. And it's only going to take that. I mean, it's going to take intimacy. It's going to take a daily walk with Him. And it's not just even you know, 15 minutes in the morning and I had your time with God, and then I do what I want the rest of the day. It is being with him, having conversations with him, being attuned to his voice. It's going to be key. So I love that. Emmanuel, if you could talk to your readers, what do you hope people get from what actually. Starts movements. What do you hope that this, this research in this book, will do for the world? One thing is what
Emanuel Prinz:we just talked about. I would hope that even while they read through the book, they begin to develop more of that lifestyle of active partnering with God every day, and I have deliberately designed the book you will you will see it when you read it in such a way that it takes not just reading through it, but it takes pausing and reflecting and and and listening prayer to say, what of of the wealth of these great thoughts is, is for me and is for us as as a ministry team. So that would be one a second. Is that i My desire is it would inspire people to go deeper in God and cultivate their hunger for God, more than any hunger for ministry success. A third desire is we talked about this at the beginning of this call, is, if it's true that wherever you see a movement, you will find a certain type of catalytic leader. Well, the good news is, none of us can manufacture a movement, but it is in our hands, and God has placed it in our hands to cultivate our personal growth. And the good news Joshua is that all these catalytic qualities can be developed if we just intentionally work on them. So there is hope, even when I hear the list or read the list in the book and say, Oh yeah, I'm good at this. Great. But then there are five other things where I think, no, I'm not really good at this. But if that's the case, good. If you're not good at it today, you become good at it if you just start developing it and practicing it deliberately so that is a call to personal growth and development in the journey toward ministry fruitfulness. Because others have said that before. You know. I quote the leadership guru, John Maxwell, for example, who says, you know your leadership is determined by who you are. And that is true, your ministry fruitfulness, wherever is the per determined by who you are. Our movement, ministry fruitfulness is determined by who we are. So a great encouragement and call to to place more emphasis on personal growth and development, as Paul actually exhorts Timothy and says, Timothy, you know, watch, watch over yourself, take care of yourself and the teaching in other words, your teaching ministry. And he Paul says, you know, Timothy, you come first, you know, make sure your life heads in the right direction. And your then your teaching ministry does as well, and then you will save those you that you serve basically.
Joshua Johnson:Emmanuel, I have a couple quick questions at the end. One, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?
Emanuel Prinz:I would Yeah, a lot, actually, but I think one that stands out to me Joshua is do less but better as a 20 year old, one, you know, I was totally driven. I worked 100 hours a week. My teammates and friends would say, Emmanuel, you drove yourself relentlessly. And I would say, do less but better. And what I mean with this is literally work less. Hours, run less projects, be involved with less people, reduce all of that drastically and have time to pause and reflect and evaluate and adapt prayerfully. I think that is probably the number one advice, if I could do it again, starting out at 21 that I would tell myself, and that would put, put my life on, on, on an even better trajectory.
Joshua Johnson:That's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend,
Emanuel Prinz:um, related to this, or just in general,
Joshua Johnson:anything, anything,
Emanuel Prinz:well, I have always a pile of books, really, I'm leading at the same time, but I be because I believe you we are kind of in the same tribe of you know, CPM and DMM, I recently met Alan Hirsch, who is also bringing a movemental approach to to to the faith and to the church. His focus is more on the church in the global north, and I have been benefiting immensely from. The book, The Forgotten ways reactivating. What's the subtitle, apostolic movements. So that's that's on my bedside table right now, and I highly recommend it. I'm I'm reading through it a second time now. Yes,
Joshua Johnson:the Forgotten ways is a is a fantastic book. I highly recommend that as well. But let's go out and get what actually starts movements, partnering with God for kingdom, multiplication. Emmanuel, how can people go and get that book? And where else would you like to point people to? I trust
Emanuel Prinz:that we will find the link the links in what you're sending out. Joshua, but yeah, launch day for what actually starts movement is May 29 you find it on amazon.com, or Amazon in wherever you live in your country. I also want to point you to my blog and actually a new podcast that I'm launching at the same time as the book. You find it on sub stack my name. You can search either my name, Emmanuel Prince, or movement catalysts. And I invite you to to subscribe, if you like to message me personally or get in touch, or I can serve you and your ministry. My website is www, catalytic leadership dot info, catalytic leadership. Dot info,
Joshua Johnson:perfect. Well. Emmanuel, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for walking us through what actually starts movements and who these catalytic leaders are. What characteristics do they have? How they rely on God, they follow the lead of the spirits, what it looks like to then make disciples that would then multiply, and how that happens, how that goes about. Thanks for for diving into these things. It was a fantastic conversation. I'm sure a lot of people got a lot of out of it. There's a lot of meat in there. So thank you for this. It was great, and
Emanuel Prinz:it's been an absolute pleasure doing this with you. Joshua, you.
