Shifting Culture
Shifting Culture
Ep. 311 Naeem Fazal - Encountering Jesus, Creating Beauty, Finding Hope
Today, we have a powerful and deeply honest conversation with Naeem Fazal, author of "Tomorrow Needs You." Naeem grew up in Kuwait in a Pakistani Muslim family, survived the Gulf War, and eventually found himself in the U.S. grappling with questions of identity, fear, and faith. What followed was a series of raw, spiritual encounters that opened his heart to Jesus in ways he never expected. In our conversation, we talk about what it means to find hope when everything feels lost. Naeem shares how the beauty of Jesus began to reshape his story, and why perfect love, not just faith, is what truly drives out fear. We explore the idea that hope isn't something we chase after, but something the Holy Spirit grows within us. This conversation is a reminder that beauty matters, that creating something - even something small - can pull us into the presence of God, and that tomorrow does, in fact, need you. Join us as we create something beautiful.
Naeem Fazal, a Pakistani, was born and raised in Kuwait. He grew up in a Muslim family, was a teenager in the midst of the Gulf War, and came to the United States in 1992. He had a supernatural experience with Christ that changed the course of his life. He is the author of Ex-Muslim and Tomorrow Needs You, and the founding pastor of Mosaic Church in Charlotte, NC. Naeem and his wife Ashley have two amazing children and unfortunately two cats.
Naeem's Book:
Naeem's Recommendations:
Subscribe to Our Substack: Shifting Culture
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.us
Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.
Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTube
Consider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below
Through meaningful interviews and heartfelt conversations, Friar Time, hosted by Fr....
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
Jesus says it's perfect love that casts out fear. So if you want to fight fear, you don't fight it with faith. You fight it with love. That's the only way to do it.
Joshua Johnson:You Joshua, hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we could make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, today we have a powerful and deeply honest conversation with Naeem Faisal, author of tomorrow needs you. Naim grew up in Kuwait, in a Pakistani Muslim family, survived the Gulf War and eventually found himself in the US, grappling with questions of identity, fear and faith. What followed was a series of raw spiritual encounters that opened his heart to Jesus in ways he never expected. In our conversation, we talk about what it means to find hope when everything feels lost. Naeem shares how the beauty of Jesus began to reshape his own story, and why perfect love, not just faith, is what truly drives out fear. We explore the idea that hope isn't something we chase after, but something the holy spirit grows within us. This conversation as a reminder that beauty matters, that creating something, even something small, can pull us into the presence of God and that tomorrow does, in fact, need you so join us as we create something beautiful. Here is my conversation with Naeem Faisal Naim, welcome to shifting culture. Really, really excited to have you on thanks for joining me.
Naeem Fazal:Oh man, my pleasure. I'm looking forward to this. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm really
Joshua Johnson:excited to dig into beauty. Your book tomorrow needs you is fantastic, and we're going to be talking about the themes and ideas around there. But I'd love to, like, walk into some of your story, because part of I think your story is a place where you're figuring out, does tomorrow really need me at all? You've had a really incredible story growing up. Pakistani, born in Kuwait, after the Gulf War came to America. Did the beauty of Christ draw you? And how So, how did the beauty of Christ draw you in the midst of your story? Man,
Naeem Fazal:yeah, good question. Good question. I think, I think when it comes to beauty, number one, you know, it's a process like, I think that sometimes we are awestruck by beauty, right? You look at something, you go instantly. You're like, I love this thing. This is awesome. And then there is, there is a deeper sense of beauty, where you learn to see, oh my goodness, how beautiful this relationship is, this person, is this idea is this world is it's like, it's like, the idea of like, you get infatuated, and that's great. You get attracted. But deep sense of beauty is really comes with understanding and some time and growth and looking around and really considering all the things, the idea of making something beautiful is to like, make that thing bigger, like, to make it bigger. And there's a process to that. Just the idea of like, you don't you have to get there at some point, and when you get there with time, it's deeper sense of beauty. So yeah, for me, you know, my fam, my my story is crazy. Because, yeah, I was born raised in Kuwait as a Pakistani come from, you know, a big family, two brothers, two sisters. So yeah, we were all born raised in Kuwait and as Muslims and so, you know, to your question, I didn't really know Jesus, or I didn't know Christ. I didn't know the gospel. I didn't know anything about Christianity. Grew up in Muslim household, in a Muslim country, even though I'm Pakistani, and the country was Kuwait, but still Sunni Muslim.
Joshua Johnson:So, you know, I'd love to hear I was in my wife and I were in the Middle East. We were in Jordan for many years. We work with Syrian refugees primarily. So had lots of conversation with with Muslims in their in their living rooms. And at that point, a lot of Syrians that we were encountering had dreams and visions of Jesus. They were really attracted to the stories of Jesus and what Jesus and the Gospels bring, in the hope that he brought, as somebody who grew up Sunni Muslim, how did Jesus draw you?
Naeem Fazal:So I had quite the adventure. I feel like, like I mentioned, we all, you know, we were in Kuwait. My older brother, though he's he got accepted to a college in the US, and so he he gets a student visa, and he comes to Johnson, South Carolina, and he's there. And in 1990 this was a couple of years before he had left, or after he left, Iraq invaded Kuwait, if you. Member. And so we were stuck in the war, and we decided not to leave. And so we were there throughout the whole occupation, liberation, the whole thing. And so it was interesting to see a beautiful country, you know, be ravished by war, destroyed. And before Saddam Hussein left, he, you know, he made sure that you destroyed some of the key things that would, you know, hurt in one sense, it was it would, he just tried to destroy things that just didn't make any sense, but they were kind of a these statues or these symbols of beauty in Kuwait, so you'd want to destroy that. So I come to the end of the war and, and my dad's like, you know, so you haven't graduated from high school, because, you know, I was in a war and and lost couple of years there and, and so he said, you know, you want to go and try to see if you can get to the US, like, try to see if you can go to college or go go to your brother and or you could start working here. And, you know, for me, I was kind of like, I don't know what to do, because being in Kuwait, living there, you're still immigrant there. Even though I was born there, I'm still an immigrant because they don't give citizenships to people who are not Kuwaiti. And so got on a tourist visa and took a flight and came to the US and yeah, connected with my brother. He was in Johnson. I had no idea what to expect. All I knew, though, is I remember a conversation my brother and I had several years ago in which he had told me that he was a Christian, and I threatened to kill him. So it was a very bad conversation. And so now I'm the I'm in the States, and I'm with him, and he's introducing me to his friends. I mean, day one. And I know that these guys are all Christians. I mean, they're like, not just Americans. They're like, I don't know. I thought they were a cult, you know. I was like, What's wrong with him? So he invited me to this thing called FCA Fellowship of Christian Athletes, you know. And I was like, not interested at all about you know. And then he was like, Hey, listen, there's some cute girls there. There's a there's people you want to meet. You be good. And I was like, Well, what do I have to lose? And so I showed up, and that's where her first heard the gospel of Jesus. I first heard the good news. I heard this idea of the possibility of a personal, intimate relationship with the Creator of the Universe. That's where I heard where the Jesus came and to come and sacrifice for my sins, to take away my sins, to bring redemption, not just for me, but for the world, to open access to heaven, to give me the Holy Spirit. I mean, all these concepts that I was like this is too good to be true, because in Islam, you know, God is reverent. God is almighty. He's merciful, but he's not really personal, you know. And if you know anything about Islam, which I know, you do, you know you pray in one particular language, in one particular direction, in particular times, on a particular mat and particular prayers. Needless to say, it's not really intimate, in a sense, you know, because I can't really talk to God in my own language, because I speak Urdu, and the prayers were in Arabic. And so when I heard about the gospel, I was like, Oh, I don't know. And, but my brother was convinced, if I were to ask Jesus to reveal himself, he would do it. And yeah, so that led to one night. I was a crazy night.
Joshua Johnson:Take me into that crazy night. What did it look like? How did Jesus reveal himself?
Naeem Fazal:I was at FCA one night. It was a Tuesday night, and they ended in prayer, you know, they closed it up, and I just looked up and I just like, I just said to myself, you know, if this is even half true, I want to know that was it, but it was a sincere prayer. It was sincere. I was directing it to Jesus. And so three nights later, I'm in my room trying to fall asleep, and I was reading a book, and I put the book down, and I'm about to shut off the lamp light that was right next to my bed, and and as I reach for it, I noticed that the room gets really strange. My body starts reacting to something I can't really understand. And I I start looking around, and I don't know what Joshua I felt like. Felt like death walked in. And I'm kind of freaking out, but I don't even know why. Like, I just don't understand what's going on as I'm trying to look around process this, something grabs my shoulders, physically drags me and pins me to my pillow. And now I am totally freak out mode, and I'm trying to wrestle out of it, and I noticed that something grabs my legs as well and basically paralyzes me. And I can't really move, and the only thing I can move is my neck, and I'm looking around, trying to try and toss and turn and but I can't. And so I started screaming out, you know, and then I realized I can't hear myself, like I'm screaming, but I can't hear myself, and I'm like, am I asleep? Then slowly, the door opened up and, and I thought my brother heard me from the other room, and and in walks this thing. And, you know, I grew up Muslim. So we're not really into demons or anything like that, you know, we believe in these jinns, but not really, you know, demonic warfare or demonic we don't have a demonic theology in one sense. And so, yeah, this thing starts walking up, and it's, I mean, I can kind of, it's like a it starts communicating to me, and it says, I want to kill you, and I believe it. And it gets closer and closer, and I joke about it, because at that point I'm, like, I was praying to every god out there, you know, Allah, Bucha, Oprah, you know, I'm saying, anybody, you know. I'm like, Who? And then I thought I ticked off someone, I upset someone. So I either upset Allah, because I went to FCA and I, you know, and then I thought maybe, maybe I this is Jesus. I mean, he looks nothing like the pictures, but I'm just thinking, maybe this is Jesus, because I had made fun of Jesus. I, you know, debated I would have made I was not kind towards it, you know, I wasn't laying those and so anyways, I got closer, and I just thought it was going to be the end of me and and I think I want to say Joshua. I think I I remembered Jesus, or I saw him in my mind. I don't know exactly what happened, but the thing reached my bed and stopped, and then it disappeared. And then whatever was holding me let go, and I'm just stunned in my bed, going, what just happened? And I look around the room, still kind of strange, but I slowly get up. I look around, run out of the room, wake up my brother and tell him what's going on. And so as I tell him the story, I'm thinking, he's thinking, you know, he's gonna say, Oh, you were just dreaming this. This stuff is not real. Like, that's what I was really expecting to him, you know, or maybe even hoping that he would say, stuff's not real. And he tells me the opposite. He says, this stuff is in the Bible. And I'm like, what? Because I had never read the Bible. I never held the Bible. I I just thought it was like, you know, just a holy book that had a lot of concepts no one could understand, like one of the holy books, you know? And he was like, No, there's stories of Jesus encountering demons. And it blew my mind. I'm like, what he was like, Yes, he did this and that. So he starts talking to me about that, and I asked him, so what do you what's happening to me? Like, what do you think has happened to me? Like, am I possessed? Like, I'm like, I'm thinking all kinds of thoughts, right? And he was like, no, no. He's like, I think this is the enemy trying to get you're just trying to scare you and this and that and that. And then he tells me some other things, and then he tells me more about Jesus. And you know, we're going for an hour. And finally, I'm like, you know, you know what? I I need some help, man. I I just feel like there's something out to kill me. And then so my brother says something to me that I'll never forget. He says, Well, I know only one person who has authority over demons and angels. And I was like, Well, who? And he said, Jesus. And I was like, well, all right, then what do we do? What do we do? And he was like, All right, we you need to ask him to come to your life. You want to ask him to and I was like, All right, let's do it. And so we, we, we do right there, you know? And, and my first prayer to Jesus, because he was gonna, he was asking me to repeat after him, you know? I mean, now I know it's like, kind of the sinners prayer kind of thing, but I wanted to say something, so I said, the first thing I said is, I said, Jesus, I don't know who you are, so I can't say you're the Lord of my life. I don't know you. I can't say I love you. I can't make any promises, because I don't know you. But if you, if you save me from this, I'll give you my life. So then I, you know, said that parade with my brother, amen. Amen. My brother's still excited. He was so happy, you know. And I'm still scared to death, you know, exactly. And I was like, okay, so I thought something would change. And he was like, All right, all right, man, I'll see you in the morning. And I was like, Oh, I'm sleeping with you, like, I'm spooning you, you know. And he goes, No, no, I'll go back in the room. I'm like, Are you out of your mind? Like, did you not hear what I just said? So he says, here, here, take this. And he gives me a Bible. And the Bible was smaller than my iPhone, you know, I'm saying it was one of those, those Gideons, Bibles, you know, those New Testament, the green ones, the small, old school ones. And I was like, this is the Bible. And he was like, no, no, this is the new just the New Testament, or just the Gospels. And I was like, okay, okay. And in my head, I'm like, you know, can you give me something bigger, like, you know, I'm against demons here. And he was like, No, don't worry about it. Just go. Just go read, John. I'll see you in the morning. And I was like, All right, so I went back in the room, turn all the lights, and I'm reading. And I mean, have you gotten to a point where you're so scared and so spooked that everything. Is, like, making sounds, you know? I'm saying it's like, it gets so eerie, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, what is that? What is that? Who's breathing? I'm like, oh, that's me. Okay, you know? So then I I'm trying to read, trying to process what happened, and I just get so frustrated, and I go, what's going on. It had been three weeks. I had just been, you know, I've been to states for just three weeks. I'd gone through a war. I had now I'm getting I don't even have real problems. I have demon problems. I'm like, What is going on? Am I losing my mind? And then I'm like, getting mad. I'm like, Why me? Like, why is happening to me? I don't want to do any of this. I don't want this. I don't want any of this. So I put the Bible down, and now I'm full on just mad. Shut off the lights, got back in my bed, I looked up again and I said, Jesus, if I die tonight, it is your fault. I don't know why I was saying that. Just want you to know my prayer. Life's gotten better, though, okay, but so I say that, I put the covers on my head, hoping nothing happens, and the next thing I know, something is trying to shake me. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is round two. And, yeah, man, I was hoping to not see anything, because I was like, just keep your eyes closed. You know, that's my that was my thought. And I found myself sitting on my bed with my eyes open and staring right at him, like it's so interesting, because I don't know I was like, I was looking at Jesus, but I was inside of him. It was the surreal, the most strangest thing, and a voice said, I am Jesus, and your life is not your own. And I remember thinking, I remember thinking, like I couldn't keep my eyes off of him, but I couldn't keep my eyes open. Like it felt like, like this body could not be in that presence, like I had entered in just for like, it's like, I know it's kind of goofy, but like, it's like, when you enter into a portal, or something, you know, like, or something like a different dimension, and I just couldn't even understand it. But I'm like, I can stay awake. I cannot, yeah, all I remember is him saying, I am Jesus, and your life is not your own. And the next morning, I mean, I woke up and I had gotten this download, I had gotten this. I was supposed to be in ministry, I was supposed to do this. I was supposed to do that. And then, yeah, that led me to just pursue that full on. Went to my brother, told him about that. And then, yeah, the journey of understanding what the Bible is, what is Christian community, what is church? I'd never been to church, no denominations, so as I was learning the US. But also, you know, starting, you know, I didn't date for three years, man, because I felt and God was saying, you got to know me, you know, I was prime, like in college. I didn't date for three years. It's crazy. That's crazy.
Joshua Johnson:What a encounter with Jesus. I think a lot of people may not have had demonic experiences, you know, at night, but we're living in a day and age where so many people are pressed down with depression, anxiety, with fear, feeling like a people are pinning you to the to the bed, and they're wondering if there is any hope for tomorrow, if I matter, if it matters that we actually exist or we live, where does hope come for people in the midst of really difficult depression and fear and things that saying I can't go on? Yeah, where does hope find its way? That's great
Naeem Fazal:question. So for me, what I realized is, is that when I came to Christ and become became a follower and began to really dive into the teachings of Jesus, and then allowing the Holy Spirit to work my life, understanding who God was, the generosity of God, the goodness of God, what I realized most importantly and fundamentally is that when people come to a god, or when they usually come through religion. So religion tells them, this is who God is, this is how he works. This is this is how it is, and this what you're supposed to do to connect with God. And so fundamentally, with religion is that there's this idea of like you have to do a set of things, and you have to figure it out, get it together, to get your life in order and and then start following and be a good, whatever, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever, with the life of Jesus, what I realized is that the when you start a relationship with Him, the Holy Spirit comes and and makes you the temple where he resides in You know, Paul talks about the your bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit. Don't you know that? And he goes, so there is a spirit of God that's working in me. Ephesians says that's able to do immeasurably more than I can ask or imagine. He's, he's in me. He's able to do so God is, I'm inviting God in and it's, he's growing inside of me. You. You know, it's like the, I know it's the goofy analogy, but the Alien movies, you know that it gets in there and it starts growing out, you know, just, you can't control it. I know this is great. I just,
Joshua Johnson:I'm just hoping the Holy Spirit doesn't just, like, pop out of my belly, right? Explodes, you know exactly.
Naeem Fazal:Big difference there, yeah. But the idea of like the the Holy Spirit growing inside of us. And what he's doing is he's not just growing inside of us as we allow Him to and allow Him and be humble about it, and be open and authentic and vulnerable, but he is growing us up as well and changing us from the inside out the and that's how we get the fruits of the Spirit and all that. And one of those is perseverance. One of those is connected to hope and see, what I realized is the big difference with hope is that I used to look to things for hope. You go, I gotta I gotta hope. I gotta hope. But then we realize is there's a hope that's growing inside of me. There's a hope within me, and that's the big difference. And so when people go, man, I just need some hope. I just need some hope. What they're thinking and hoping for is to find something that grabs their attention, that gives them the security that they can look to. Instead of going, Hey, Jesus said I'm giving you a hope, a hope that does not disappoint. I'm giving you a spirit. I'm giving you peace, not like the world gives, not not that you can muster up, no that lives inside of you. And so I would say the the biggest thing that people have need to understand is is that that that sometimes the must trying to muster up things within you, just striving or like I just got to lock in. I just gotta do the thing. I just gotta get a better attitude. I can't, like, Will myself out of depression. I can't will myself out of hopelessness. And what we have to go is, Hey, God is doing a work in, like, allowing God to work inside of us. Because, I mean, we were created beautifully, but sin broke us, and so now we are the broken becoming beautiful. And then if you allow God's spirit to move inside of us, I write about it in my book tomorrow. Needs you is that we are actually the broken creating beauty. We're called to create beauty, but that's because there's a work that God is doing within us. So I think a lot of people struggle with hopelessness, but and my dad did too. In fact, he's the reason why I wrote this book, and he's the reason why the title is called, tomorrow needs you. Yeah,
Joshua Johnson:the story that you start out with your book is the story of your dad. It broke my heart that there is a vibrant man that then later on in his life, depression hits and he doesn't want to go on anymore. It's a really heartbreaking story, in a sense like that. How do you let people know that tomorrow needs you? How do you say especially well, in a place of, I mean, let's just talk about somebody who doesn't have the spirit of hope, living inside of them, growing and moving forward. Yeah, what does that look like to help people move towards that, or maybe even open their arms to surrender, their hands to surrender and say, Maybe I need a hope inside of me, and it's not just a striving or transactional hope.
Naeem Fazal:I think that for me, this book that I wrote has so many amazing stories of people who've come out of trauma and come out of despair. And this really about post traumatic growth, but it is fundamentally changing the way you think about life and seeing a life. So there's a amazing passage in scripture that talks about Jesus. It says that for the joy set before Him, He endured the cross. And there's this idea that Jesus set a picture of a beautiful humanity that was worth dying for. And I think that when we, you and I, hit a point of like, I look around and man, things are just going downhill, even, even now in the culture, it's just there's if you want to worry about things, there's plenty of things to worry about. If you want to be depressed about things, there's plenty of things to be depressed about. You want to be anxious. This is the time to be anxious because, I mean, you've got it all over. You see it all over. And so when it comes to fear of anything, usually we say, hey, faith. Faith is what you need. You just need to believe and you just need to have faith, because faith is the solution to fear. You know, faith not fear. Now I respect that. I understand where people are coming from, but faith sometimes fails us. Here's why, because faith is the opposite of fear. It's not the solution. Fear is no it's love. Is actually the solution. I. I mean, so Jesus says it's perfect love that casts out fear. So if you want to fight fear, you don't fight it with faith. You fight it with love. That's the only way to do it. In the scriptures, he's talking about exactly the perfect love, like God's love, this love that says there's no punishment, that God loves you. He sent His Son for you. It's John 316, all over again. So I think that fundamentally, people have to go if I'm going to see beauty around me, if I'm gonna create beauty around me. That's one of the things my dad could not see. He could not see the beautiful things around him, like he actually, literally said, Tomorrow does not need me. And I was like, Dad, don't you see the beautiful things? Because what he couldn't see Is he couldn't see the loving thing, loving people around. He couldn't see love all around. He couldn't see beauty all around. And beauty and love are so interconnected, so interconnected. Because beautiful something being beautiful, is something that you're attracted to, that you love, like, like you're attracted to it. You know, it's not, it's not it's not just some things are beautiful and other things are not. No no. Beauty is anything someone loves. And so you and I have got to have a beautiful for example, you have to have a beautiful vision to dismantle the anxiety in your life. You have to put something beautiful before you that's bigger than you, to conquer the fear inside of you. See, sometimes what we say is we, like, we have to muster up faith, or whatever will courage to conquer the fear inside of us. So I gotta figure out myself, to figure out the con. Like, I gotta get this one guy fighting this other guy inside of me. You know, I'm saying like it's that's how you do it. But Jesus always put something before him. David says, I have set the Lord before me. He's at my right hand. I will not be moved. It's always this idea of setting something before Paul said, Hey, I'm not looking behind. I set my eyes on the author and finisher of the faith. I'm moving forward. I'm pressing on, I'm doing this. And so I think it's something simple. Do you have a beautiful community? Do you have a beautiful relationship? Do you have a beautiful vision? Because all these things give you the power to dismantle, to conquer fear, worry, anxiety in your life, you gotta put something beautiful in front of you to dismantle the fear inside of
Joshua Johnson:you. I was getting my Masters, and I was working with war refugees in the Middle East. I was living in the desert, and this quote from Ray Bucha in a theology as big as the city, really stuck out to me. It says this, in Exodus 31 and 35 we find the first gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the entire Bible, an art committee. Why? Why does a poor, unemployed migrant group on public aid for food need the arts? Luther knew the reason when he expressed that the poor need beauty as much as they need bread, because they live in ugliness. So Moses let the arts emerge along with them, health laws to address environmental concerns. Man, that's so good for me. Like now I constantly go back. I was like, Oh, the first gift of the Holy Spirit was the arts. Was beauty. Was something that, especially for people wandering in the desert, they needed beauty set before them so that they can continue on. You. You talk there about beauty and relationships, beauty and community, beautiful vision. What is beauty for you? What are we what are we working towards? What are we looking to find?
Naeem Fazal:So I'm a painter. I'm an artist. You know, I used to say I dabble in the arts, but that means something else. Maybe I doodle in the arts. Maybe I should start
Joshua Johnson:Yes, well, if you're a Harry Potter, if you dabble on the dark arts, going on the dark side, sorry, that's
Naeem Fazal:yeah. So even if you see the book cover, you know, it's, it's very artsy. I gave the the publishers were great, because they they looked at my some of my stuff that I have online, and things like that. And I've always I thought before I was called to the ministry, before everything changed in my life. I mean, I came into the states thinking I was going to be an art major, so that was going to be the thing. And so Beauty for me was just this idea of, like, I just love beauty around me. Now, your question is so important, though, because I think people need to fundamentally understand that it's the process of creating something that's beautiful. It's It's the process. It's not the final product. The final product is someone else appreciating your work. So what is beautiful to you because you made it, what beauty did to you while you were making it is different from someone else appreciating. So we go, oh, all I need is just some I just need things to appreciate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes. For sure. For sure. We need to visually look at it, because our senses are heightened by that. We are, we are human, we we have, we're complex. We. So we can feel and sense and we can be encouraged by just looking at something, or the opposite, discouraged by just looking at something. But there's a different, deeper, like I said, sense of beauty when you create, see. So that's why, I think, when you're Do you have a beautiful vision? Do you have a beautiful community that you're building. Do you have relationships you're getting deeper with? Did you have beautiful relationship with God that you're moving towards? Are you creating something so just simply said, it's the process of creating that unlocks something inside of us, because that's when we're like the closest to God, because he is a creator, and so when we create, we're acting like him. And it could be creating a spreadsheet. I mean, it literally could be anything, but we we get excited. We're like, look at what I did. That's why kids will draw ridiculous paintings and go and we're like, that's great. That's wonderful. But what it did to them creating it is different than what you thought about it. I'm saying, look around and let's create something in the midst of beauty that's so
Joshua Johnson:good. I mean, it just reminds me of the movie Life is beautiful, of him trying to create in in the in the Holocaust, at a death camp, he's trying to create beauty for his his son. He's saying that life is beautiful, even despite our circumstances. But the process of creation, what you're saying, I think it's so key, because now we're getting back to who we are, like, we're co creators. We're made in the image of God. So this is, this is our, our core nature as people who create like and so when we have fear, depression, anxiety, all of those things where we only see the ugliness of the world, soon as we people get caught up in the I can't don't have any energy to create. I can't get up during the day, can't do anything. So when we're in thought like that, where I have no desire to create, but I know that Beauty will save me, and creation will save me. How do I just try and get up when I have no energy or no impetus to want to do it? I
Naeem Fazal:believe that I, you know, COVID. COVID is a great example of me being that person you just described. I don't have the energy to do this another day, you know? And we all, we all went through all kinds of things in during COVID, but all of us definitely were coping in all kinds of ways, right, trying to figure it out. And I would say, coping, you know, people say, you know, well, you're just coping. Well, coping tells you that you're still alive. It's your body telling you, hey, you got to do something. Because I'm dying, I got to do something. So I don't blame people for coping. Now the problem is, is that sometimes it can get super unhealthy, but it's coping is a good sign that says, hey, you got to do something. So when it comes to
Joshua Johnson:how many yellow tortilla chips did you have?
Naeem Fazal:Yeah, I had a lot. I had a lot, you know what I'm talking about. You know, it was not till, until, like, you know, until my son was like, Hey, you're, you're, you have anxiety. And I was like, whatever. Man shut the door. The issue was, is that the reason why I did not want to get up today and do the things I need to do is because I remembered yesterday. I remember that I did it yesterday. I had lost it. Like, you know, we grew this organization, we grew this church, we grew this things, we had these relationships. I did all that work, I lost it. So the reason why people don't want to go into today, they don't want to engage today is not because I'm just in a bad mood. It's because my body remembers yesterday. My mind focuses on yesterday and goes because if yesterday was killer, I would get up. If yesterday was great, I would get up. Because I'm like, oh, it's gonna be another great day, it's gonna be another great day. So I would say, first, hey, if you're that person, remember, remember yesterday, you're going back to yesterday. Hey, yesterday has forgotten you. It's like a relationship that you used to have, and they've moved on, and you haven't. You can't go back to it because, because it's, it's the because hope doesn't live there. Like hope lives in the future. It doesn't live in the past. The past, actually, if you try to go back to it, because we want to go back to it, and I've wanted to go back to it sometimes, because sometimes it was good. You know, there were times were good, the glory days, or something, whatever, things were great. When I go back to it, the past is too small for you to. Live in. It's too small for you live in. And by the way, it's too small for God to fit in wide open spaces the future. The the next thing God says, Hey, behold, I'm doing a new thing, like, forget the past. I'm doing a new thing. Do you not see it? Do you not see it? It's, it's when the people of God we're in exile to Babylon. What do you think happened? Get up every day going, we're exiled. We lost everything. I want to go back. I want to go back back home. We're in Babylon. I want to go back to Jews. I want to go back and God in the middle of that says, hey, there are prophets that telling you that just hold on, and it's going to turn around. Just hold on. Keep thinking about keep the memory alive. And then Jeremiah comes in and goes, hey, those prophets are lying to you that God did not send them. What's the message then? Well, you don't want to hear it, but here's the message. The message is, plant gardens. Start relationships again. Build homes start again. And they're like, why would why? Why do I don't want to stay here? Why do I plant a garden? You know how long it takes? Like, why do we want to do he said, Do this? Pray for the peace of where you are right now. Like, build homes. Don't dwindle. And it's a great picture of like, what happens when we want to go back in the past, when we go on the past, our present starts to dwindle, or we just get drained, and maybe our past, or maybe our future just is never created. So God says, Hey, listen, I've got great plans for you. You know, with Jeremiah 2911 right? Plan for hope in the future, but you got to do this. What
Joshua Johnson:has been helpful for you is there practice every day or something where you say and maybe I'm just coping at the moment. I don't really want to to move forward, to have a hope in future. I don't want to plant a garden today. Is there something that that helps move you towards actually paying attention to today and creating something beautiful. I walk a
Naeem Fazal:lot at night, or at night I'm on my porch, there's, there's this, this practice of a I'm just a night owl sometimes, and nighttime just allows me to just get rid of all the noise. So what I would say is the practice and pace of your life is really connected to your piece, you know, like, so I gotta have a practice. So there were times where it started with, Hey, I would just journal at night, and then it went from just, I'm just gonna walk at night, then I'm gonna walk and listen to worship music at night, then I'm gonna walk and I listen to a book. Oh, I walk and talk to my mom, you know, I'm make some calls. I'm just gonna walk at nights. And for me, I realized that God was like saying, Hey, you don't have to always come with, you know, ready to go like, you don't have to always come and, you know, have something to write or journal and pray about and list and all that, because there were times I was like, I just don't want to pray, I just don't want, I just don't want to put that energy into because I'm going to feel bad. I'm going to feel like, you know, I'm not that excited, you know. You know I'm not. I don't want to say I'm not in the mood for God, but I'm not in the mood for God, you know. And what I realized is my soul. I just really felt, felt this my soul, and I felt God's Spirit. Just said, hey, just come and stand close. You don't have to do anything. Just be close. Because I always felt like I need to do something. So then I started this practice of like, hey, you know, almost every night I'm on my porch, and sometimes it's not godly. I mean, it's like, it's not like I'm praying and all that I'm listening to work. No, I'm not. I'm just I'm creating that pace. So I would say number one, create a spiritual space and redefine what spiritual means to you. Spiritual place means I'm gonna come separate from everybody else that's important, alone, not totally distracted by technology. You can have technology, but just say, God, this is our time. And sometimes we just might just listen to a book together, and sometimes I'm like, opening up my heart, and sometimes I'm crying, and sometimes I'm listening to worship music for an hour. And man, Joshua, I mean, I've walked for like, maybe two hours, sometimes maybe two and a half hour. And I'm just and then I love doing this, you know, I love doing this. I look up at the night sky. I will stop in my neighborhood, and I will just look up in the night sky. And you know how David said, you know, when I, when I consider the heavens, the moon, the stars, you ordained. What is man that you're mindful for him, mindful of him? You know, what is man that You care for him. And I have those moments of like man when I look up. So I would say, start that kind of practice, a spiritual practice that allows you to just calm the noise, look up. I think everybody can do it. I honestly think so. I mean, whatever, if you're. Morning person you could do in the morning. If you're a night person,
Joshua Johnson:you do at night. You're an artist, so you like to create and to make beautiful things. When you're standing in front of a blank canvas and you're like, I don't have any inspiration. I don't know where it's coming from. It's not coming from me right now. I don't know what to do, because I'm sure that's happened, yeah. Yeah. Where does inspiration come for you? How do we how do you get started when you have a blank cap Canvas in front of you? How do you know what to start to create?
Naeem Fazal:Oh, man, that's such a great question, because that that moment staring on again at the canvas, is the worst moment. So even in our conversation, of people going, okay, man, what do I do with my life? Like, what's the next thing that's the most terrifying thing? Like, I'd rather not even deal with where my life is going, because I don't want to create something because all of a sudden I'm blank. I don't know where to go, I just don't know what to do. I had this moment a couple of days ago, a couple of days ago, so I'm trying to do this a party, like a book release party, and my wife had a great idea of doing an art show with it as well and donating the artwork to a nonprofit in Pakistan that sponsors kids in Pakistan. And I thought, that's great. And she's like, Okay, well, you have to make these paintings. And I was like, Okay, I'll do it. And so I went, and I was like, I'm gonna do wood Canvas. So I went, went to Lowe's got them cut, stained them and all that. And they just been sitting around. And she was like, hey, so when are you gonna do that? Hey, so when are you gonna do that? And then what I did was, you see a picture of my house, we have a breakfast nook area. There's no breakfast nook table. That table has like, stuff on it now, and it's an art all my supplies are on there. And so I'd walk by it, it's in the middle of the house. So that's one thing I've done, is I put it in the middle of house, then it's like, okay, name, okay. And so the other night, I was like, What? What do I do? What do I do? So, on Canvas, when you start, you just gotta go. So the other day I started, and I'm like, where am I going? And you I can't tell you there's some canvases going back to my dad, for example. I sat down because I was watching a show, this dream COVID, watching a show, and I was like, I was like, name, can't just stop watching the show, just to stop watching TV and put the tips down. And I just got up. I walked by the table. I just sat there. I just sat down, and I just started going, and kid you not, Joshua, like I it was a blank canvas. And I was, I think, 15 minutes, or maybe even 10 minutes. It was maybe 40, maybe even less than 30 strokes. I don't know. I'll show you the I can send you a picture like maybe even 15 strokes. And I looked, and once I was done, I looked, and I go, Oh my gosh, I just painted dad in the midst of his depression. I painted him the picture of him, I'm like, the what he felt. And I was like, Oh, I like, it shocked me, and I said to my siblings, and they were like, Oh my gosh, this dad. I didn't even plan it. So all that to say, sometimes you just, you have to sit there and you give yourself grace to say I'm gonna I might create something that's stupid or dumb, or something that no one finds pretty, but I will tell you on good days, I realize that there is this sense of this might get weird, but when I say this, but I get into a kind of a trance. I get into this. I'm just doing this thing. I'm just doing this thing. I'm just doing like, I don't like talking to anybody. I don't like just I can't, don't distract me. Sometimes I'll have music, I'll just get into it. And you know what I realized the word genius. You know the word genius comes from the word Genie. And so in the Western world, when we know the word genius, we call each other genius like, oh, you're a genius. But when the word originated, the idea was that there was something beyond you that came in, did something through you and left. That was genius. So it was like a genie. So I just believe, like, like, I believe the Spirit of God comes over me, in a sense, does something profound and leaves. It's like, you know, it's not like, it's not like, I don't have the Holy Spirit. You know, Paul said, I do, I do. But there are moments we have an overflowing of it. And so when I'm when I when I do something, I'm like, That was genius. When I look at that term, I don't think genius is a person. I think it's an act. And so now on. The days I'm like, Man, I just want to go ahead and just try something, just because I just know that I'm going to interact with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God in a way that I'll never get to if I didn't do anything.
Joshua Johnson:I have a couple quick questions, yes at the end. One, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give
Naeem Fazal:21 year old self, oh, man, I would say, hey, stop trying to fit in. Stop trying to fit in. I spent a whole lot, a whole decade or more, trying to fit in. Maybe it's because I was an immigrant. Always been one, then came here, felt like an immigrant, but I spent a lot of time trying to fit in, just like, you know, hey, you know you gotta. It's like code switching, if you've heard that term, yeah, for me, I think I went not into extremes, but I just, yeah, I spent a lot of time wondering what other people thought.
Joshua Johnson:I mean, I can't imagine, like, going through your 20s. I think that's, that's really what, what life is in your 20s, trying to fit in, and being an immigrant and saying, you know you're you're not from here, you're feeling a little out of place, like all of that exacerbates that. Man, it would be so great if you know we could figure out who we are underneath all the masks that we wear. Yeah, so good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately recommend. You
Naeem Fazal:know, I've been listening to a podcast, and it's not a religious podcast, so I'm not I don't know if I can endorse it or not, but honestly, it's really got me thinking in very different way. It's actually Trevor Noah's podcast called what now I listen to a lot just because I want to have a very different perspective. And do feel like, at the end of the day, the podcast really wants to help the world, and so I think that's, that's a really, this is really good one. You know, I would recommend, light of our conversation, a book called culture care by Makoto fujimoru, but that's a great book. And again, talking about why we need beauty, beauty. I mean, this just great book. There's I love listening to and I listen to books just because I, you know, I've dyslexia and dysgraphia, so it's hard for me to read. Listening to books helps me so lust for life by Ivan stone was a great book. It was a book on on Van Gogh. Just a great, great book. Another one I would recommend, man, in light of our conversation today, is called the war for art. I believe it's called the war for art, and that is a must read. Not a Christian book, though, and just FYI, because he has a mouth on him at times. But, man, he makes such a great case to come against a resistance in any form, in terms of mentally and, you know, and fighting that and you gotta, you gotta go battle. You gotta battle to create art tomorrow
Joshua Johnson:needs you. It's a fantastic book, and I think everybody should go and get it and so that they could start to create some beauty around them, that they could have the hope of God within them, that there is a beautiful life and future here for you now. Name, thank you for this conversation. It was fantastic to walk through your story of Jesus encountering you, and then living a life of beauty and creation and so that we could actually be co creators with God, that we could actually be the people that God has created us to be. And man, it was a beautiful conversation. I really enjoyed talking to you so thank you so much, Likewise,
Naeem Fazal:likewise, thank you so much. You.
