Ep. 312 Angie Ward - Reimagining Church and Parachurch: From Institutional Competition to Missional Extensions

What happens when the institutions we’ve trusted start to crumble and we realize they were never meant to carry the weight we gave them? Today, I’m joined by Angie Ward. She invites us into a deep reimagining of the Church, not just as a building or an organization, but as a Spirit-formed people living on mission together. Angie has spent decades in both church and parachurch worlds, and she brings hard-won wisdom and clarity to a question many of us are asking right now: what is the Church supposed to be? We talk about the historical split between church and parachurch, what it would look like to move from siloed excellence to shared mission, and why this cultural moment might be the perfect time to rethink everything - not out of panic, but out of trust. We discuss institutional collapse, missional ecosystems, scarcity vs. abundance, and how to step into new paradigms when the old ones stop working. If you’re sensing the shaking in the foundations and wondering what’s next for the people of God, join us as we imagine an ecosystem of missional extensions. 

Angie Ward (PhD, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) is director of the Doctor of Ministry program and associate professor of leadership and ministry at Denver Seminary. She is the author of Uncharted Leadership: 20 Case Studies to Help Ministry Leaders Adapt to Uncertainty and I Am a Leader: When Women Discover the Joy of Their Calling. Angie has over thirty-five years of leadership experience in church, nonprofit, and higher education ministry. A sportswriter in a previous life, Angie loves running, basketball, humor, and movies. She and her pastor-husband live in Denver. They have two grown sons and one very spoiled beagle.

Angie's Book:

Beyond Church and Parachurch

Angie's Recommendations:

Good Authority

Competing Against Luck

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Transcript

Angie Ward: 0:00

But it just doesn't all depend on me. And I think, you know, a lot of things, the evangelical culture, subculture I grew up in, too, is like we've got to be evangelical victorious and conquer for Jesus. It's all up to us to do all the work, and so just increasing dependence on the Lord.

Joshua Johnson: 0:22

You Joshua, hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, what happens when institutions we've trusted start to crumble and we realize they were never meant to carry the weight we gave them. Today, I'm joined by Angie ward. She invites us into a deep reimagining of the church, not just as a building or an organization, but as a spirit formed people living on mission together, Angie has spent decades in both church and parachurch worlds, and she brings hard, won wisdom and clarity to a question many of us are asking right now, what is the church supposed to be? We talk about the historical split between church and parachurch, what it would look like to move from siloed excellence to shared mission, and why this cultural moment might be the perfect time to rethink everything, not out of panic, but out of trust. We discussed institutional collapse, missional ecosystems, scarcity versus abundance, and how to step into new paradigms when the old ones stop working. If you're sensing the shaking and the foundations and wondering what's next for the people of God Join us as we imagine an ecosystem of missional extensions. Here is my conversation with Angie ward. Angie, welcome to shifting culture. Excited to have you on thank you for joining me.

Angie Ward: 1:54

Thank you so much for having me. Fun to chat beforehand. Well, it's

Joshua Johnson: 1:58

going to be great talking about beyond church and parachurch. I have worked in the church, I've worked in parachurch organizations, so I've been in both worlds. I've seen the crazy confusion, misunderstanding of who we are and what we're trying to do and how we're trying to advance the Kingdom of God together, and amen, we're not very good at working together. So I'm excited to dive into what it looks like to actually advance the kingdom. But before that, you start your book out with the state of the church, like, where are we? So I'd love to hear where are we. You go, go way back and you talk about turning points in church history. So I'd love to hear some of that to see where we are. And why do you think this is like an inflection point for us,

Angie Ward: 2:42

yeah, today, yeah. So where we are. I guess there's kind of two perspectives. One is kind of the the data driven stuff, which just all the research is showing. Now there has been a slowdown and maybe a plateau, but like the rise of the nones, the unchurched, especially in Western cultures, right? So Europe, United States, well, meanwhile, the center of global Christianity is shifting to the south and to the east, and so we've, you know, churches are closing left and right. Seminaries are, you know, dying close. All these kind of institutional structures that have been part of our society for really centuries. We're just seeing this massive shift, kind of like Phyllis tickle talks about, or quotes, at least references, kind of this idea of this rummage sale in the great emergence. And so it seems like we are in this, maybe not since, seen since the Reformation, but like this very large global shift in Christianity and the church and religiosity. So there's that. But then there's also, you know, kind of those of us on the ground in ministry, vocational, you know, vocational ministry or part time, whatever Kingdom work as part of that shift we're seeing like a decline in trust in institutions, and we've seen leadership failures and all that kind of and a lack of true discipleship. You know, like what we've been doing has been getting what we're getting. We just have this landscape littered with all these our new President of Denver seminary used this phrase the other day, he said, he said, Oh yeah, at my last institution, we had all he said, we had cylinders of excellence, and we all just kind of looked and he said, aka silos. And so we have all these cylinders of excellence, many doing excellent work, but often very siloed from one another, if not outright, depending on your perspective, even Anna monster is saying, well, they're not really the church and just this. You know, it's been easy to like blame cultural factors on the decline of the Church and its influence, and not just local congregation, but just Christianity. But I think part of it, a large part of it, is that we are unclear on who we are supposed to be as a church, like our identity as believers, what we're supposed to be and do. So seven or eight years ago, now, maybe a little bit more, I was teaching ministry the way that I've been taught it, leadership, the way I've been taught it and experienced it. And I grew up in kind of the Bill Hybels, you know, era and mega churches exploding. Everything rises and falls. On leadership. John Maxwell, and like, I'm teaching that stuff, and I have a PhD in leadership, so like, this is what I banked everything, you know, like I'm an expert on and then I stop and go, like I stopped cold. The students don't recognize, I don't think, and I'm and I'm thinking, like I'm teaching to a particular model and understanding here of ministry and the church and and leadership, and I don't understand, I don't know how we got here, or if I even buy this model, like I suddenly critically reflected in a way I had never had to do. I mean, I just, you just, kind of, it was the water we swim in. And I thought, and I have these degrees from these reputable schools, you know, in in seminaries, you know, in in ministry and ministry leadership. And I got a PhD in leadership, ministry leadership. But I know more about leadership than I do about the church, the beautiful bride of Christ. And I think that's if I'm teaching this stuff that's a problem. If I don't know that, and I don't think I'm the only one that's that problem. And, you know, and then, as I started digging the book, is kind of the outworking of years of kind of searching on my own and going, what is the church supposed to be and do? How does church and what we call parachurch, or nonprofit Christian organizations, how does it all fit together? When did we first even talk in these terms? And then from there, like went back to the early church and went, Oh, there's actually a history here from, I talk about an overview from Paul to Promise Keepers, you know, and like, oh, there's a lot more history here that I need to be aware of. And as I put all these pieces together, you

Joshua Johnson: 6:32

said before that we're kind of confused of what the church is and the purpose of church, and so bring us into that place. What is church, and why are we here? Like, that's the

Angie Ward: 6:44

book right in front of me, so I could be reading to you what I actually wrote in there. One of the things I pointed in the book with the many ways we use the term church, you know, it can mean a building. It can mean a place where you kind of take partake of religious services, like we're, you know, it really does service events, but also services, you receive things from it, you know, kind of a transactional kind of thing, you know, I go to such and such church, you know. So partly we just have all these misunderstandings, or we talk. It's, I think it's been, become fashionable now to say, because I think there have been failures sometimes with local leadership or particular congregations. Well, I'm part of the church, but it's this global thing. And I'm not really a part of a local congregation, but I think church in the Bible is actually Ecclesia. It's this gathered people for you know that it's a missional community, but there's, it's a formational piece too, and we're shaped by the gathering of it, but we are also called to each of us is called to be on mission. It's not just churches are called to be mission. And by missions, I don't just mean the term. The way I grew up understanding mission was global evangelism to the like, to the unreached. We are also all to be part of God's redemptive mission, drawing people in the world to himself, and, you know, making all things new. And so, so the the church is a community of believers who are together on mission, you know, this missio day kind of thing. And so there's this gatheredness, but also a sentence to it. And so I think last time we we get one or not the other, this or not that. You know, there's a, there's a global, universal piece to it, where we're part of, like, all believers, all time and place, you know, all over the world, and also called to be part of a local community, you know. And so it's this, lots of this, both. And

Joshua Johnson: 8:33

so then what is para church? And how did that come about? Yeah, and how does that connect in with church?

Angie Ward: 8:40

Well, so what I discovered, like, I grew up in what I heard that term para church, and I kind of vaguely knew parachurch. Think of like all these kind of used to be, you just had your local parish or your congregation, and then you had, like non profits or denominations would have a publishing branch, or whatever you have these kind of more mission or purpose specific organizations for ministry. So parachurch could include anything from InterVarsity, crew, navs, you know, that type of to publishers, IVP, to seminaries like Denver seminary to global evangelistic mission agencies to Compassion International. I mean, the the list I do in the book, there's just dozens and dozens of even categories Christian radio, like the majority of those sprang up for a unique need, a unique time and place. And so, like, couple 100 years ago, it was a lot of Bible track societies to help get or literacy. You know, didn't get the printed by Wycliffe. You know, some of those are still around for for many years, but they came up with a, you know, the local church, or church was kind of the local congregation, and you're more bound by locale, because you couldn't regionally go or watch something online. But then you would also give to these social concern, evangelistic, these kind of missional or. Organizations, which at some point became known as para church, so either alongside the church or next to, but not really in partnership with, and that was part of the confusion. Like, is, what is para church? Relationship? Church? And some people would say para church is the church, and other people say, Well, no, they're both part of the, you know, it's just, but there's a like various schools of thought, of, well, you know, some para church would say, or, like, Christian nonprofit, I think is a more familiar term to many of us. It's like, well, para church, these organizations, wouldn't have had to rise up if the church hadn't had done this job, you know. Or there's others saying, No, you look at like, you know, many like, mega churches or networks now, they're really a federation of a congregation with parachurch ministries. So there's, there's this gathered and sentness kind of thing again, and so, so a lot of times parachurch is helping facilitate the sent portion for a particular mission and time and people.

Joshua Johnson: 10:59

Is this a new phenomenon, or has this happened before? Well,

Angie Ward: 11:03

I thought it was a new phenomenon. I mean, I knew that there was like in the 1940s 50s, like the Christian college. I went to the Christian camp, I worked for campus life, that I was involved. There was a explosion of these kind of in the 40s, early 1950s and so I knew about all that. But when I started going back to that's when kind of the term parachurch was used. But then you start going back to, like the Second Great Awakening here, and you realize that there were actually these, these voluntary societies, which were the forerunner to what we would call parachurch. We had those a while ago. And you go back even further, and you go back, like 1000 or years of monasticism. And I thought monastics, for all the people who went lived in the desert or were cloistered completely and and what I discovered was that, you know, there was the early church, and they just kind of went out and started sharing the apostles. You know, the Acts of the Apostles, reread all that, and then over time, these structures kind of emerge. But then that were like for the local church, and as a church became a little more centralized through what the Church, which is now, at the time, was just the church. Now we have the Roman Catholic Church. And so is it new? Not at all. Throughout the history of Christianity, people have been finding, have been going out the least, the loss, the needs, bringing the full gospel, you know, to the whole world through these variety of kind of structures and ways of making work. So like Manas, the monasteries were healing the sick. First hospitals were coming out of that, you know, they were teaching kids. The first preschool is literacy, all that stuff, the things that we do today as these separate organizations that was part of monasticism. So, I mean, we have just a long history of that, and a long history of church, and, quote, parachurch, not knowing how exactly to relate to one another and who gets the who has the control of whom.

Joshua Johnson: 12:54

All right, so this has been happening forever that we don't know how to relate to each other and we don't know who is in control? Yeah. As you were looking through some research, has there been any eras in history where church and para church get along and they work well together, in a way that it's a symbiotic relationship, like we're in this together. This is Kingdom work, and let's do it together. Yeah, have you seen that? I would

Angie Ward: 13:23

say there's instances, but I wouldn't say it's an era of widespread I mean, it's you find pockets all the time, and also you have kind of, depending on what people's theological bent is, is even like, what the purpose of search is, you know. So, you know, even in monasticism, it was like, there was some tension between, like, the clearly, clergy and the monks, because who was doing the work of the ministry, and then who was sanctioned by the Pope, you know, and so then. But then there are, from times like around Second Great Awakening, also in the late 1800s there were these agreements between various denominations. Denominations started having their own like publishing houses and stuff. But, you know, in Protestant history, our nature is to break off and set a protest. We're great at right? I mean, right, right there in the name. How ironic, right, you know, and so and so, you know, you certainly see people who want to so I'd say there's some who are, you know, they have a more antagonistic view, one toward the other. But many are just like, I don't know how to do this. I'm so busy with what's going on in front of me. The needs are so great. The needs are so great that I don't have time to collaborate in one sense, or I don't know where to start. So I don't know that in, you know that, I would say in churches or one big era where everybody worked together, I think that's not going to happen until the other side of the you know, of heaven.

Joshua Johnson: 14:43

One of the things you said at the beginning is that the state of where we are, we've lost trust in institutions, and so it feels like there's people willing to to cross pollinate in ways we haven't seen before. They're willing to collaborate in. In ways where it's not really just about institutional loyalty anymore. It's more, I mean, in pockets, there's loyalty for the kingdom of God, for Jesus, and hey, we're going to do this together. Have you seen any shift in people starting to work together because of this new distrust in institution. And is there a history of institutional distrust? Has that happened before, or are we in just new territory?

Angie Ward: 15:32

Yeah, I think are people more willing? Yes. I think COVID. I think we would all say COVID, the pandemic, accelerated things that we were starting to see happen and kind of expose and so I think a lot of people, you know, if you picture people in their kind of, their their building, from their headquarters, their congregation, or whatever, like, the wall started crumbling around them and and, you know, some were like, we've got to put this back up, you know. But then as they're coming down, you look out and you go, hey, you've been right next to me this whole time, but I've been so busy with what's going on within my walls. Sometimes it's just that I've just been, you know, busy, or we've got our focus here in this building, or this, you know, cylinder of excellence, you know, as it were, and other times it's like, you know, some people would say, well, our job was to keep the wall up, you know, but, but those that's a mindset that will go with wherever those people go, you know. But yeah, I think people are going, like, the discussion all the things we were doing before the like, I said, like, the reliability of institutions, of leaders, were having to find whole different the decline of of kind of Christendom, and this assumed Christianity in Western culture that had held for so many centuries. All of that is gone, and so suddenly we're now on the margins, or just don't have a position of power, and we have to just start look organically again. I see missions, agencies, you know, like minded, coming together and saying, okay, you've got this part of the world in this part, or we're doing this this way and this way. But instead of saying we're doing it this way, because this is the only way, we're saying no, now we need you to do that. I see networks of campus ministries, college university ministries, going, Okay, we've got IV crew and MAVs all on one campus, but this one other campus here has nothing. You know, how do we go together to those, you know, unreached places here, you know, in the United States or or Western Europe. So I think it feels a little chilly because it's exposing. It's a little breezy when the walls come down, but it's making us go like, Oh, I can't just rebuild the brick here. And institutions may not be the salvation we thought they were. Then, what do you think is perfect leading question? Yeah, well, I you know one of the things, you know, when Jesus says, like, Go into all the world, and you look at the early church, they were just kind of mission bands of people going around. It was very movemental the early church. And I think the church is supposed to the mission of God was very movement of the Holy Spirit. And move movement. And over time, we built institutions, organizations, institutions, because there is value in organizing to get stuff done like but when, when institutions become institutionalism, and most of your time is spent trying to, you know, your job is to keep the institution going and strong. You know, I think we we've grown up in for centuries. So you and I are just immersed in this, in an institutional framework of how things should get done, how things do get done. And as those walls come down, my suggestion, and this is the title of the book, is really moving to a completely new paradigm, not just of people in the institutions doing things differently, and which is what we were seeing for a while, like even seeker sensitive movement, different churches. And you know, it's like, let's change our methodology. But I think we have to really come down all the way to again, what is the church supposed to be and do? And then what are the structures? How much do we even need structure? But maybe it's not this institutional. So I envision this, what I call missional extensions. It doesn't flow as easily off the tongue as prayer. Church has become, you know, church and parachurch, but this ecosystem, globally of missional extensions, where you and I as individual believers, I'm a missional extension to my neighborhood and by Denver University. Here through the work I do at Denver seminary. I'm then part of a local congregation called Platt Park church. And we're, you know, a community that is on, you know, of these missional extensions, we ourselves are a mission extension. Our ends of the earth will be somebody else's local, you know, local ministry and just viewing ourselves instead of cylinders of excellence. What? What would it be like to go like, if whatever you're doing Joshua doesn't work, I feel the loss like, like we, we just in a true system. Every change changes everything, and we've been so insulated or sometimes isolated, even though we talk about unity, where there's really not a meaningful. Like impact to each other and throughout. So you know, back to your one of your first questions, like this, this unique missional moment and cultural moment, where, where we are in this rum sale, this kind of yard sale, this upheaval, all the kind of assumptions, kind of crumbling about institutions, leaders, all that kind of stuff like this is primary opportunity, and we can't not take advantage of it, not for like, Oh, we're going to win, but like, in a posture of humility, saying why we need each other. We're past this. Like, building, you know, building big things to make Jesus name great in, like, big declarative institutions and towers, but like mustard, seedy stuff.

Joshua Johnson: 20:44

All right, I'm going to take you into our church for a moment, because I think this is helpful. I a year before COVID, God told us to get rid of our building and to roam the city. And so now, after after six, we've been been at this six years. And so now we're in we're in home churches three times a month. We gather once a month all together, where, from the beginning, we've been trying to build a kingdom ecosystem, is what we've called it, yeah. And so we're trying to, like, think, new paradigm of what ecosystem is, and it's, I mean, it's a hard slog. It's not easy. I mean, you're, we're gonna lose people. People are like they're institutionalized. They love the institution. They want. They want it. They feel safe and secure in it. Ecosystems sometimes don't feel that. They feel unmoored. And I don't know where I'm going and what we're doing, it would be so easy to just slip back into institutional life, because it is easier. How do we start to move towards new paradigms, new thinking, new ways and keep it up when the stuff hits the fan well,

Angie Ward: 22:05

and you talk about institutional life, and I think there's a distinction. I think we've seen a lot of folks go away from institutional life, but that doesn't mean we should go away from corporate life. And so like, and so the you know, the trick is to okay, how do we do this together in new ways when it's way more comfortable, you know, we seek equilibrium, you know. I so some of the ways to move toward the other stuff, like, one, it's like you could, kind of, you could burn your ships and say, We just can't do it that way. I mean, like, you could just, you know, you said we sold the building. So, you know, there might be a temptation to go back, but like, where are you going to go, you know? And so you could do some draft, you know, some people might say drastic things like that, you know. Roland Smith, our mutual friend, talks about, you're always discipling your people toward something, you know, and just even bringing an awareness of what assumptions are we bringing in and or training and embedding and perpetuating by what we're doing here and evaluating stuff of the assumptions level. And here in joffle, Christianity is not known for doing that very well, because we're, we're people of action. You're activists, you know. And Christian, the Christian church in general, is, you know, we are missional. And so it's like, there, there's, there's stuff to be done. But if you're not taking some time to examine kind of the frameworks behind it, I think it takes, you know, how do you disciple people to dis, to discomfort? That is so, so, so, so counter cultural. I mean community, just being in community, is counter cultural, you know? And so, and then I guess, you know, how do you embed the heart of God for the world into people? Where I was talking to a friend yesterday who wanted to be He, he wanted to be a martyr, like, we just, we just like that. To him, was the pinnacle of service for the Lord, you know. And we look at that go like, What in the world, you know. And so, so we've just become so comfortable Christian it cost us. Has cost us very little for most of our lifetimes, you know. And so, really rethinking, and that's the Lord's work. With that mindset and giving a heart of, I'll do whatever, and it's not about my comfort or, you know, you know, you know, it's like, well, sure, we'll plant a church, and that's uncomfortable for a few years, but at some point it'll be big enough that things are comfortable and stable, you know. And to choose to put yourself in that position of discomfort over and over again, to disciple people to that, that's some large work right there. I think, you know, and I wrestle with it all the time, you know. And it's an everyday kind of sacrifice kind of thing. But so and then committing, and, you know, finding other people who are committed in community, to community, to that, and then go, what's the best ways to do? To be mission like. Extensions in our particular environment, individually, corporately, doesn't mean you can't be organized, but the institution is not the end of it or like the peak.

Joshua Johnson: 25:13

So it feels like if we're missional extensions and we're connected to each other. So what does that look like for leaders of these organizations. So either the local church or parachurch organizations, where I know that when I'm leading a missions organization, I mean, one of the things that I have to do is make sure that we have enough money, and so I'm going to promote our stuff, because we need enough money to be able to do what we're doing the local church is the same way they're going to be like, hey, we need enough money. The cylinders or the silos, I think happen because of money issues.

Angie Ward: 26:34

I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, money complicates relationships.

Joshua Johnson: 26:38

Is there a way to move, move us towards a non scarcity mindset in the kingdom, to an abundance mindset, like, yeah, hey, God has enough for all of us. Like, yeah, there's enough, yeah, and we can move together, yeah.

Angie Ward: 26:57

Part of it is that, like, part of it is theological, like, really embracing this God of abundance, and there's enough. But I think another big part is defining what enough means. And, you know, with the Institute, I think, along with the probably parallel, like, you know, well, institutions are way to do it. And institutions, I mean, the work needs money. Well, yes and no, maybe not to my maybe not in the way that you think reframing, and really re rethinking our relationship to with money and and if we're looking at it as, you know, if there is endless supply, well, it's not getting to some of the right places. And then, you know. And so even making the hard decision of like, would you, you know, would you as a leader of an organization, would you be willing to go under so that another place thrive like that's against the job description of most of us as executive leaders, right? So in a couple of there's more these kind of tight, hard questions for thought experiments. And another one I do sometimes with my students and with leaders, is this idea of, like, planned obsolescence, obsolescence. So Denver seminary, for example, we were celebrating a 75th anniversary later this year. What if we said we're only going to be here for 15 more, 10 more? What if we intentionally said it's not going to be it's going to get too unwieldy, if we just kind of try to keep it forever? I mean, like none of the seven churches in Revelation are around anymore. We just have this idea that things are supposed to last forever, and, you know, bigger up to the right. So there's so many assumptions we bring in. But what if we, like, say, No, we're only gonna be here for 10 more years. What are we gonna, you know, kind of like the Wesley thing, earn all you can give, all you can save, all you can and so, but we're only gonna do that for 10 years. You know, those are like, those are reframing questions, I and again, they are not easy conversations. And this, there's so much stuff entrenched in, in systems, even from, like, tax advantages, you know, like, not that we shouldn't be shrewd and all that kind of stuff, but we're bound by it instead of just utilizing all

Joshua Johnson: 28:59

right, since we're on the topic of money. Let's talk about about business leadership and the church. If you were like, Hey, I have this, this doctorate in leadership, I know more about leadership than I do the church. And I think that's probably what the evangelical church has been like, is, yeah, like, just built on leadership and a lot of business principles within the evangelical church. What was the shift that you made to different ecclesial models, maybe, or what the church is, or rediscovering church, and how do we start to shift the culture of the evangelical church from a business leadership model to a New Testament Church model.

Angie Ward: 29:47

Well, I think the first shift was just recognizing how much I had unthinkingly absorbed, and we have unthinkingly absorbed. I think, you know, the shift for me first was to realize there's a a sacred or divine component. It's not just your everyday non kinship. Like to use sociological terms, it's not just your everyday non kinship, formal organization, 501, c3, there is a there's a mysterious, divine, sacred there's something unique. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in IBM, you know, like in the way that it does in the gathering of people together. So there's a sacred thing that the early church, the apostles and early church writers, understood, that we've just kind of defaulted to this more pragmatic, utilitarian, organizational kind of approach and so, so I think most, you know, most elders, a lot of nonprofit leaders, have, I mean, they're they have the leadership stuff, but they don't. Have this understanding of our identity as the body of Christ, and how that's unique from just running a group of people who have organized around a purpose. And so I think our really, our deepest problems are ecclesiological, big seminary term, but it's just really our identity as the church and understanding of that, and to discover that for me, and to read some just even what the early church was like, and how they were known, not for their logo or their, you know, millions of what they were just known for, their their love on the ground, in everyday situations, you know, and meeting needs practically, and sharing Jesus love with them, in with the world in myriad ways. And I know I mean our organization, our institutions, have grown up around that stuff. But there's so many trappings that come that doesn't take us away from that and the leadership of the organization, lot of times without that foundational understanding of how a how the church, the universal, global and congregations are, and we're, we're citizens of both kingdom, you know, whatever. So there's that whole half of things which really overarches the entire thing. We've just lost it or never had it. That

Joshua Johnson: 31:53

means it's there, though. That means that we actually can, can get it like we can move towards something different and better, in a way that it looks like the sacredness of the gathered people, the Holy Spirit is present. We could get to that place. Is it a leadership issue, or is it something else? Is it organizational issue? Does it take leaders to move us somewhere? Does it take people grassroots, you know, yeah, like people saying we're gonna gather around something else. What does it take? What's the issue? Yeah,

Angie Ward: 32:26

that's great. I mean, I think, well, one sense, it's a mix, because it's interesting. I see people who are, like, espousing a more organic thing, but then they're now different, now trying to franchise their organic mindset, you know? So it's like, I mean, we just always have this tendency, you know, that we, at some point, we have to sell it and monetize it again. Because, even as an individual, I can, you know, you know, somebody can say, well, this is the way we, you know, what, if the prophets had to be, you know, had to support, raise or monetize, you know, like what they're doing and and so I think, you know, just talking with you, divorcing ourselves from really trusting the Lord's provision and for him to determine what provision is, what would that be, you know? And so part of it is, you know, there's some, there's a lot of structural things we need to just break down, these, these walls and the silence and the whole institutional mindset. We need people really just reframing again to what I suggest, this missional extension thing, I think it would do that would help do it with like the celebrity stuff. I think we need to take leadership off the pedestal. You mean, it's not even one of the greatest gifts in Scripture. It's listed, but it's listed as not one of the most important gifts of Scripture, you know. So we have to take that off the pedestal. We have to retake a hard look at all of our systems and going, are these really getting us to where we really want to go and where do we really need to go? Do we even know where we really need to go? Because so many have just like, I can teach this stuff in a leadership class, and you would have taken it from me and go, Yeah, this is how we do it at all levels, not just leaders rethinking this stuff, but I think it takes a little more responsible followership of people. We've let leadership run the show, and leaders run the show. And instead of going like, Okay, I'm I'm a disciple, I'm an extension of God's mission here, what do I do and the personal responsibility and stewardship of that? So I think a stewardship mindset also, instead of a build it big kind of thing, stewardship, from a king, global kingdom perspective, we just have an abundance of wealth here in the United States. And so, like the flow of money is so inequitable, you know? And it was really enlightening for me to have a student in one of my classes a few years ago who talked, we talked about how much percent of a typical western church budget goes for the Sunday morning experience or attractional thing. And then how many millions of people around the world do not have access to God's Word in their own language? Seeing the greater picture, I think, is a piece of it as well. Well,

Joshua Johnson: 34:56

I know as a missions leader, for a long time, the American church gives about 1% of 1% to global missions to the unreached, which is that where we were going and what we were doing, so it's, it's a very small amount. And so that's the the problem. And it could get me, and I could get people in those organizations that are going after the same thing where there is actually a smaller slice of the pie. There's not a lot of money going there, so we have to fight each other to get the little bit of money. And that's, yeah, just it's just horrific. It is just not the kingdom, and it's not God. But it feels like we just have to do that. So we. Could get our little little amount so we can go do this thing for God. But yeah, and I think that's probably another mindset we have to shift, is we're the ones that are actually doing everything for God and without us, then he's not gonna be able to do anything.

Angie Ward: 35:55

Yeah, yeah. Get rid of that. Yeah, yeah. Like, this idea of, like, you know, this, like, I've seen some church congregational purpose statements or, you know, to make God's name famous, like he needs us for that. Like, read, you know about Elijah. He doesn't need us for that. You know,

Joshua Johnson: 36:11

I want to get a framework for people to think about missional extensions of what you're trying to advocate for here, yeah, like practically on the ground. What do you think that that is going to look like for us in this new era of the church? What does missional extensions look like for us? So that maybe there's a step or two that we could take to help get us there.

Angie Ward: 36:36

I think one is, even if the walls aren't crumbling around you, to get outside your walls and look around and say, who's next to me? I mean, and just going, like, where has God placed me? Who? Who else has God placed next to me? Whether it's in a particular, you know, area of interest or but, you know, just so first of all, that, like realizing the imperative of this, and then committing to collaboration for that, and then just looking around. So it's like, you know, I suggest, like, congregation or a nonprofit in the same area. I know of food pantries or pregnancy centers or whatever crisis center that are right next to each other, but they are from different denominations or different streams, and so they don't talk to each other, you know. So reframe the whole thing, saying, Okay, I am a missional extension where I am. My congregation has, you know, there's more this near neighbor missionality to it, you know, as like frost and Hirsch will talk about, and then there's also this ends of the earth. But also we're, when we think of that, it's like, well, we're the center, and then we go to this end, end of the earth. We're the center. We go this end of the earth thing, you know, well, it's like, but there's other people who are their center is over there. So we've just got to get over this exceptionalism, this Western, you know, some colonialism, you know, just kind of thing and little steps. It's not like. And I think we also, how do we partner so that we reach the whole world? It's like, Well, start with your neighborhood. You know, I know global missions leaders who don't know their next door neighbors, and I know seminary professors who are not part of a local congregation, you know. And most of us, most of the people in the Bible, in the Scripture, are everyday folks. They weren't all called to go to the ends of the earth. That was kind of a second decision that Ralph winter from fuller talked about, you know. And I think that lets most of us off the hook. And so I think we need to go not just Well, I'm a leader. What do I do? I think everyone in our in our congregation, I think everyone must be in a local community. I think there's something spiritual that happens when we gather together and that. So I think we've lost that as well. So so get in a local community, not just the Lord has been working on me lately. About a year ago, I felt like Lord was saying, as a leader, it's easy for me to hide behind the leadership shield. I've been burned in church ministry. My husband was a pastor, as a pastor's wife all this. So the Lord said just it's you need to now it's time for you to get back to not just commit to community, but to submit to community. We don't like that whole idea of submission. I mean, it goes against Western American entrepreneurialism. You know, so many things are embedded in there. And so to humble ourselves and see what the Lord is doing and what other great things and becoming the supporting person, not always the leading up out kind of thing. Lot of it's hard work.

Joshua Johnson: 39:16

All of this is hard work. Well, right? Yeah, well, it's, it's work, and it requires formation discipleship. It requires us to actually look more like Jesus and to follow him instead of anything else in the world. And, yeah, it's just, it's just that daily walk with Him in community. And you know, we could get there, but it's gonna take some, good, solid work. You know, if you say that we're we're in this inflection point in history of the church, that there is a big shift that we're living in the middle of which it feels unmooring, and it's, you know, not easy, but because we're in this inflection point, if you look out at the landscape of the church, what is giving you hope for the church to the moment. One thing

Angie Ward: 40:03

is giving me hope is that we can't keep doing it the way we're always worth that's a frightening thing to a lot of people. That to me, it's, I think it was frustrating sometimes to try to bring change to some pretty stagnant stuff. And so it's like we're having to find some new ways. And I'm just seeing a lot of people returning to roots, which is great. I mean, there's causing people to ask questions. I'm seeing a lot of different, you know, individuals and organizations or groups, you know, and leaders starting to ask some of these questions and thinking just bigger picture than my institution, my you know, this little our little poll. Lot of ground. I just think the the mustard seed way of the kingdom we're seeing some of return to some of those ways. You know, there, there's just more and more the conversation, you know, if you and I had talked about, like, missional church, or, you know, any of this type of stuff. I mean, there's a lingo that can go with some of that too. But like, more and more people come to me at Denver Center, and they're familiar with that kind of stuff, and they're going, you know, what is this or or they're going, they're coming in and saying, Something's not working, something's not right. And so they're at a point where they're ripe for change and reevaluation and growth. Sometimes, because it's forced, it's like, well, my my whole thing closed down. Now what I do, and others are saying, Man, I'm seeing we're not having to stop, we're not collaborating. We're more and more polarized, you know, and and so they're seeing the need and can't just do status quo. So to me, that's actually hopeful, because that means that opens up portals for that work to happen.

Joshua Johnson: 41:43

So what hope do you have for your readers that pick up beyond church and parachurch? What do you want people? What's the outcome for this book for you? Yeah, I

Angie Ward: 41:52

would. I want, first of all, I want people to fall in love with the church like, you know, congregation, but just God's design and heart for the body of Christ. Then to also just be convinced like that we need the whole church for the whole world in this moment. And then to exam like, okay, so what? And then, what does that mean for me, in particular, whatever your you know, locale and context and and just be a mustard seed in that area, in your wherever God has put you blown you planted you for I think so those are big things. But I just really want us to champion. I'm kind of a champion for the church to like we've just lost, lost who we are. It's an identity thing. It's not just a belonging to it's, it really is our identity which changes everything. If

Joshua Johnson: 42:36

you could go back to your 21 year old self, Angie, what advice would you give Wow,

Angie Ward: 42:42

the same thing I'm wrestling with right now, or continue to, because I'm a good Enneagram one and all the different things, like, it doesn't all depend on you. Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, no, the it doesn't all depend on you. So to again, to the posture of trust and openness and humility and sorry, 21 years self, there's a lot of striving. So I think there is for every 21 year old. But hopefully I've mellowed a lot more, you know, and so, but it just doesn't all depend on me. And I think, you know, a lot of things, the evangelical culture, subculture I grew up in, too, is like we've got to be, even though victorious and conquer for Jesus. It's all up to us to do all the work. And so just increasing dependence on

Joshua Johnson: 43:24

the Lord, anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend, well, reading and watching,

Angie Ward: 43:29

and then that I could recommend, yes, I'm reading. Well, actually, our president. We have a new president at Denver seminary. This is more of a leadership Ben thing. He's actually so, so in the reality of that, he's leading an institution that has not said, we're just going to be around 510 years. So I'm I read a kind of book on managing others called good authority, and about how to bring in the relational dynamics and like those types of things. I'm also reading, our small group is going through a book about, like, the use of technology in our lives. And I think restless devices is really good. It talks about how people need communion, not just community, you know, and and the role of that. And then I'm reading a leadership book called, kind of a business book called the competing against luck. So I'm looking at my right now, my little Kindle thing. So I've been reading those things some more stuff about, like, how to be a non anxious presence in changing environments. Well,

Joshua Johnson: 44:23

how can people go out and get your book Beyond church and para church, and where else would you like to point people

Angie Ward: 44:30

to? Yeah, thanks. Where to find the book? It's everywhere you buy fine. That's fine. Booksellers. It's like all the websites, Amazon. It's published by University Press, IVP. I have several other books about like a leadership, ministry leadership case study book and a book about calling for women ministry leaders. But you can go to my website, Angie Ward, phd.com, or find me on the Denver seminary website. I work at Denver seminary as director of our Doctor of Ministry program, so if anybody's interested in that, I can talk to you about that as well. But my overall calling is really just to equip and encourage the church through like ministry leaders and leadership development, so you have to do that through a variety of cool outlets. Well,

Joshua Johnson: 45:09

Angie, thank you for this conversation. I really enjoyed talking to you. Enjoyed going deep into where we are in church history, that we're an inflection point, that we can rethink what we've been doing, and we could see the Spirit of God move in ways where we could gather as the saints together, and we could see the sacred space that then we could start to work together. We could, like, get rid of our walls, and we could become missional extensions wherever we are. Yeah. And, yeah, the global church, wherever we are, we could work together, and we could do it imagine, I know, isn't that amazing? The kingdom is big and it's wide, and there's room for all of us to play, and God is with us, and it's, it's amazing. So I loved our conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you. You