Ep. 334 Trevin Wax - What Story Are You Living In? A Catechism That Roots You in the Story of Christ

What story are you living in? In this episode, Trevin Wax joins me to explore how the church can root itself more deeply in the story of Scripture. We talk about The Gospel Way Catechism, the ancient practice of catechesis, and why discipleship is more than just memorizing truths - it’s learning to walk in the way of Jesus. Along the way, Trevin shares why true freedom is found in submission to God, how cultural narratives like the American Dream can subtly reshape our faith, and why the global church is vital for our own spiritual health. This conversation invites us to reexamine the stories shaping us and to rediscover the flourishing life Jesus offers.

Trevin Wax is vice president of research and resource development at the North American Mission Board and a visiting professor at Cedarville University. A former missionary to Romania, Trevin is a regular columnist at The Gospel Coalition and has lectured on Christianity and culture at Oxford University. His new book is The Gospel Way Catechism.

Trevin's Book:

The Gospel Way Catechism

Trevin's Recommendation:

The Years of Lyndon Johnson

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Saying yes to Jesus will complicate your life more than simplify it, usually, because it's going to lead to all kinds of other things. But doing that, but walking his way with him, and he doesn't just tell us to walk the way alone. It's with him. I think that's, that's what makes all the difference. You Joshua,

Joshua Johnson: 0:28

hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, what story are we really living in we tell ourselves stories about freedom and success and identity all the time. Some of them are cultural scripts, the American dream, consumerism, individualism. Others are deeply Christian stories of redemption and resurrection. But often we don't realize which one is actually shaping us day by day. My guest today, Trevin wax, has spent his life wrestling with that question, from years in Romania as a missionary to his recent work on the gospel way catechism, Trevin has been asking, how do we help the church not just know the truths of the faith, but live into the way of Jesus? In this conversation, we explore catechesis, not as a rote exercise, but as a counter cultural practice, something that pushes back on the false stories of our age and roots us again in the story of Scripture. We talk about what true freedom is, why the church can't afford to forget its global body, and how discipleship is not just about having the right answers, it's also about inhabiting the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE together. So join us as we rethink what it means to be formed as a disciple, and what story we're really living inside of. Here is my conversation with Trevin wax. Trevin, welcome to shifting culture. Excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. Glad to be here. Yeah, I'd love to just know where some of your passion for rooting people in truth, the way of the Gospel, the story of the Bible, and root people in there. Where does that come from? Why is this something that you're passionate about?

Unknown: 2:10

No, I think this is, for me, it's all tied up with discipleship, with wanting to walk in the way of Jesus and to see the church look more like him. For me, that's all tangled up with mission work as well. I spent five years overseas doing mission work in Romania when I was a college student, when I was doing cross cultural mission work, one of the things that that opportunity affords you is the ability to get outside of your own culture for an extended period of time, to learn another language, to to learn to inhabit a different set of sensibilities and and then when you come back to the to the society you left, you're changed, and you have different set of eyes, because there are certain things that are taken for granted in a society that you you start to be able to to see and so. So one of my passions for the last 20 years really has been, you know, wanting to see churches in America look more like Christ, be rooted, grounded in the faith, not just a faith that's palatable for 21st Century westernized North Americans and individualistic faith, but one that actually does is rooted in the scriptures, of course, and in the great tradition of the church. And so that's really where this comes. It's really, for me, this passion for truth is connected to a passion for discipleship.

Joshua Johnson: 3:33

We're supposed to be disciples of Jesus, right? That's right. That's the point. And be a disciple of Jesus. So as you're looking this gospel way, catechism that you're bringing, there's 50 truths in there, and root us in the story. What is catechesis? What is catechism, and what was the tradition in the early church like when it comes to catechesis? Yeah,

Unknown: 3:57

catechesis is one of those big, scary words that just, I mean, it sounds scary in English, but it just, it simply means instruction. You know, it's basically, it's the old word for instruction. The ancient church actually had this practice of before someone was baptized, and you had to understand, like in those early centuries of the church. I mean, baptism was a here, sometimes it's taken very flippantly or very without the level of seriousness at times, because there, I mean, it was really a, a saying goodbye to your old life and welcoming in your new life. And the church welcoming you into the to the fellowship. And then there being, you know, it was a, it was a moment of allegiance, declaration of where, where your allegiance lies. And so, because of that, often on special days throughout the year in some of the early centuries of the church, for example, Easter Sunday and others, those would be big baptism days. But in the lead up to that, they would actually take, they called them catechumens. They would take people who were wanting to become Christians and join the church. They would take. Them through a process where they really, truly, deeply at the foundational level were to understand what it is they're confessing, what it is they are pledging allegiance to what does it mean to actually be a follower of Jesus and then they would be baptized? So that's the ancient church tradition. During the period of the Reformation, there was another explosion of catechisms, catechesis, that happened in part because the Protestant reformers were were wanting to react to and they were there. They were pushing against some of what they saw as the corruptions and the accretions that had accumulated in the Roman Catholic church at the time. And so they were setting forth a distinctively Protestant vision understanding of the Christian faith. And so you see confessions of faith, catechisms, especially you call a lot of times. We call those the classic catechisms, but it's always been present in the church. There have been seasons where there's been like a revival of it, but this question and answer format where you have very concise answers to specific questions. It's been with the church for a long time. It's a tool of discipleship, and it's one that I think we shouldn't lose sight of.

Joshua Johnson: 6:11

Have we lost sight of it? And what do you think discipleship has looked like when we have lost sight of

Unknown: 6:16

it? Yeah, I you know, I think in some circles of the church we have. I sometimes when I when a question like that comes up, because there are a lot of pockets of the church, a lot of pockets of the church, not just in North America, but globally. I mean, I, you know, I feel like sometimes we give short shrift to what's happening in the global church when we think of catechesis, but overall, I do think that there has been a move away from that as well. That's just wrote, it's just ritualistic. Some people would say, oh, it's all intellectual. It's just learning the right answers, not really living into them, which I've always been, these have always been criticisms of catechism, catechisms. And no one, I don't think even people that are promoting catechisms would ever say it's the be all, end all of the Christian faith, the one solution that will fit, you know, it's one tool in the toolbox to help form and shape your mind and hopefully your heart, so that you're more in tune with what the Scriptures teach, that you sort of live into that scriptural storyline and then are able to live out your role as someone who is participating In this. You know what? Kevin Vanhoozer would say, that the drama of doctrine, the divine drama of redemption, that that we see in the scriptures.

Joshua Johnson: 7:28

I was just reading something from from Leonard sweet, from Lynn sweet, he said that identity, we don't have identity unless it's rooted in story. Like the only way we could find our identity is within story. So if people really aren't catechized to the story, if we don't know that the macro story like beginning to end a lot of times, some people, they just, they're going to church, they're getting, you know, pieces here and there, and they haven't actually been catechized into the the main story, so they can move with shifts and changes of culture or other things, because the identity is not there. What do you think the the macro story, like seeing all of this does for us as followers of Jesus? How does that help us?

Unknown: 8:18

Yeah, no, that's it. That's so crucial what you just laid out there, because I think it's very easy for people, even people who attend church, like you just mentioned, it's very easy for people who attend church to be living out of a different story with the Bibles or religious practice of some sort just tacked on. It's very easy, for example, to live with, basically within the story of the American dream, you know that the purpose of life is to acquire more wealth, have a good reputation, live comfortably. That, you know, basically the consumeristic story of life. It's very easy. And then just to sort of attach God on to that, you know, for a little spiritual sprinkling of transcendence on your life, you know when you feel like you need that. And I think that's very, very easy, very common, very possible. And it's not that's not unique to our era. Maybe the American Dream part is more than other parts than other centuries of Christian history. But this idea that you're, you're living according to a false story, and not the true story of the world is told by the scriptures. It's something that the church always has to wrestle with, and that Christians have to have to have to grapple with it. Catechesis helps with that. It doesn't necessarily solve that, because some of the some of the catechisms that are out there are not really all about the story. They're really just about points of doctrine, but they don't have the story of redemption as sort of the overarching, very clearly understood thing. And so that's something with this resource we're trying to rectify at some level. But the reason why it makes a difference is we want people living according to the story as told by Jesus. Because the story of our world is unfolded from Genesis to Revelation. People to understand their need to be in the story. You know, I heard I was just at a Preaching Conference in Alabama, and I got to give a response to Alistair McGrath from who's well known, you know, professor at Oxford, was once an atheist and has written a great biography of CS Lewis and whatnot, and he used the example that of CS Lewis's Narnia story. You know, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. When that? When the Pevensey children first get to Narnia, they have to decide which story is right? Is the White Witch really the the queen of the realm, or is is Has she? Is she a usurper in Aslan, the true King of Narnia, is coming back one day, three of the kids adopt into one of the stories, buy into one of the stories. One of them goes with the other story. But they at some level, then they have to figure out, not only what story am I living in, you have to answer that question, but as Alistair MacIntyre, the philosopher, talked about, I can't answer the question, What am I supposed to do until I answer the further, the former question of, what story am I a part of, of what story am I in? And I think that's crucial for Christians if we want them to live like Jesus.

Joshua Johnson: 11:14

And it seems to me, if I'm looking at AG, culture at the moment, is we don't know what story we're living in. And so there are so many ways to go about doing something, because we're like, we're actually being formed into something else, or being formed in the ways of culture or the world and in other ways. And so this is, I mean, it's important that we get the story. And we could see that one of the things you said earlier was there was some criticism with catechism when it's just really about truth and head knowledge and doesn't get into the way. At the very beginning of your book, you said, Hey, we want the gospel way catechism, but we believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. And when I look at way truth and life, I actually look and not just see truth or the received doctrine and truth, but I say, oh, there is a way, a way of living, and then life with community, with others, like we're living as a life. How can we use something like this, the catechisms, and then make it something where we could actually see some holistic discipleship, where it does impact some of the ways that we live and we embody Jesus, and then the life that we live with other believers.

Unknown: 12:33

Yeah, I think that's a really important point you're making, that you can't you can't separate way truth and life, not not and you can't separate them and be faithful to the vision that Jesus has for us. I think one way that a catechism can help in more than one category, rather than just the truth category, is that if the truths are presented in such a way as they push against the common sense wisdom of the world, or sort of the the ways on offer in our world, then at least there's a better shot at Christians, who are, you know, internalizing that truth, articulating that truth, maybe even memorizing that truth, if there's that, that edge where the truth that they're memorizing is is specifically and intentionally pushing against some of the ways of the world that would draw us in one way or another, maybe tug at our hearts here, pull us there, make us drift in some way, shift in ways with culture that would be inappropriate to what the Bible teaches. Then I think at least there's, there you're there's a wrestling with the truth where it's not I'm just memorizing doctrinal facts, but I'm actually internalizing truth that I know is going to make me stand out and going to lead me to live in a different way. And then if you do this in community with other people, and you have the good discussions that happen, and they're robust conversations about, what does it what does this look like, fleshed out, not just argued out, but fleshed out in real life, you know, in small groups, in communities and churches whatnot, then I think you have a better shot at seeing a more holistic wealth, rounded tool of discipleship, like a catechism having some fruit.

Joshua Johnson: 14:11

So then what does that look like? Take me into someone that maybe will facilitate this catechism within a church. What makes for a good facilitator to help people walk through these things and then wrestle with it so it actually impacts their everyday life and not just receive doctrinal truth. What's a good facilitator?

Unknown: 14:31

Yeah, good. A good facilitator first. I mean, the the best teachers are are teaching out of the overflow of their own passion. So if we're calling it facilitation teachers, modeling apprenticeship, whatever we want to call it, at the end of the day, that facilitator has got to have the passion that, hey, this, this thing that we're learning really does matter. Not only matter for getting the answer right, but also matter for for how we live. So if it's, oh, I. Of the overflow of their passion. That's the first and most important key. You know, you hand up any kind of curriculum, book and workbook to someone, and if it's just like, oh yeah, I guess we're going through this now, you know, well, the group's gonna feel the same way, you know, like they're gonna, they're gonna rise to the level of the passion of the leader in that situation. But a good facilitator, I think, has passion for the for the truths being presented. Is teaching leading out of the overflow, but at the same time modeling for the group. Hey, this is how you really dig into this. This whole week, you're going to focus on one question. There's a little bit of commentary. You got some scriptures there you can read, but you're going to focus on one question. Go over it every day. This week, we're going to come back, and I want all the, not just the discussion questions in the book, but anything has been prompted by your own working through this question and some of those scriptures. Bring that to the table. Let's put it on the table, and let's, let's discuss it. There's a lot of good learning that happens in that back and forth where you know because the truth should, it should only be countercultural, and that it makes people in the world feel uncomfortable. We it should make us as Christians feel uncomfortable. I mean, Jesus had a lot to say to religious people, just to, you know, to people out outside the faith, so to speak. So. So I think letting the truth work on you over the week and then coming together as a community to talk about whatever's come up, whatever you've been thinking, prompting real life conversations and discussions where this would be applied, how it would be applied. I think that's really key for a great group experience. And most people, if you ask them, what have been their best group experiences, they'll say, Well, I had this one teacher, or this facility or this leader who was just amazing and passionate. They'll say that, but at the same time, they'll talk about the discussions they had.

Joshua Johnson: 16:50

You're right, and I think it's the discussions, the passion of the teacher, the facilitator, when you were thinking about writing this, you and and Thomas, as you're walking through the this catechism, and you're saying, okay, maybe the the the world, the culture, is shaping us in a way where it's it's not like Christ, and we want to help believers be shaped like Christ and look like Christ. What's one story from culture that has been shaping people that you wanted to help root people in the truth and the way of Jesus that is counter to the way of culture.

Unknown: 17:31

I love that question because it brings me. That brings me to one of my favorite questions to talk about. We, because this is a catechism that has a counter cultural element to it. We we develop some questions that are not in the traditional catechisms. They're not and one of those that I, I think I go back to again and again as an example, is the question about freedom. What is freedom? It's in the in the section about our identity and our purpose. But the reason why I think we have to ask this question is because in our society today, we have moved away from the ancient understanding of freedom as basically a freedom for becoming a certain kind of person, where it was like the freedom to accept certain constraints and restraints and discipline and whatnot in order to to flourish as human beings, to reach our full potential as Human beings, our society has moved away from that understanding of freedom and has really moved to an understanding of freedom where we are. We see anything outside of us as holding us back. So we've got to cast off the constraints that might be foisted on us from our parents or the previous generation or church rules and regulations or what it might be. So we developed. So one of the questions that we developed, and this has got that counter cultural element, is, what is freedom? And then the answer is true. Freedom is submission to God. Freedom is not casting off all restraints and pursuing whatever we want. It is embracing the right restraints and aligning our wants with God's will so we can pursue what is true and good and beautiful. So that's the answer. There. It's basically, and there's, there's elements in there of Jesus and John eight, talking about how the sun will set you free, but it's through following his way, If you abide, if you continue on in His Word. You know that that he he's talking about a freedom that comes through following which, in our day, is so counter cultural, because, I mean, we're all about I'm going to follow my own dream, not anyone else's dream. I'm going to live my truth. I'm not going to take anyone else's truth, you know, like we, we, we. I'm no one's going to tell me who I am or what to do. I'm free to be whatever I want to be. Jesus comes on and says, that's actually not what's going to free you. That's going to actually just enslave you to your own desires and and the sins that you have in your heart. Jesus's way is a freedom, but it's a freedom through following.

Joshua Johnson: 19:49

It's so counter cultural because it's really difficult for people to understand it like, because it's been so ingrained that freedom is a free for all, like, it's just like, what? Ever we want to do that, and then our truth comes from inside of our ourselves, that we're going to decide who we are, where we're going, what we're doing. It's so hard to understand that that this kind of freedom leads to flourishing. I don't, and a flourishing life. And so I don't even I maybe in America, you know, if you're thinking of you know, you as a missionary, you're trying to contextualize something in Romania and make it so that people can understand a different language. There may be a, I don't know, different word that needs to be used in in America so that we can start to understand the concept that Jesus is talking about what true freedom is, and I don't know what that word is, but there may be something that we have to redefine, something so we could understand. Because I don't think Americans understand, even when you say this is what it is, it's so hard to get it

Unknown: 20:58

well, and one of the reasons it's hard, I think, for us to understand that concept of freedom is because a lot of a lot of times, let's just be honest, we as Christians, people in the church, sometimes the Christian life doesn't feel very free. It doesn't feel freeing in part, because our vision of God is still of him as a, you know, a tyrannical task master who can never be pleased, rather than as a father who's adopted us into the family. That's that's a that's a challenge. I mean, this goes again, going back to Jesus in John eight, Jesus not only talks about being slaves to sin, but he talks about the difference between the slave and the son when they're in the household, related to an inheritance. And I think a lot of people, it's so easy for us to think I'm just going to do a lot of good things and follow a lot of religious rules so that I can pay God off and then get my own freedom to do what I really want, what Jesus would say would be, first of all, that's just another form of slavery, because doing whatever you want, apart from what God's will is and What God has designed you to be is going to lead you into all sorts of conflicting, contradictory desires. And then there's but, but, but it's the sadness to me Joshua is that is the is that a lot of religious people, a lot of church goers, don't really understand the freedom that Jesus is talking about here, either, because they they're doing the right things in order to earn their relationship with God, or impress the right kind of people, or stay in the club that they think that they're a part of, or, you know, and that's what's sad is, I feel like so many, even professing Christians, may be missing out on the freeing and flourishing life that Jesus really has for us.

Joshua Johnson: 22:37

So what is the free and flourishing life like? What is the what is flourishing life with Jesus really look like, if it's not just following the rules to get God's favor? Yeah.

Unknown: 22:48

So it is. It is through following his way, in submitting to God, letting him shape and reshape our desires. But, but it's not in a way of following him to sort of then do what we want. It's a way of aligning our hearts to what actually our hearts deepest desire is anyway, which is union with Christ, union with God, recognizing that at the end of the day, I like to compare it to learning a language, in part, because this is my with my cross cultural missions experience, there are constraints around that to learn another language, to be able to speak it freely, fluently. You You do have to submit to grammatical exercises, to the structure of the language, to vocabulary. You have to you have to give away the freedom of never looking silly. Yeah, because you always look silly, you're gonna look silly like there's no way to become fluent in a language and not fall on your face in front of other people multiple times on the in the process. You know, there are certain things you have to give up, but the beauty on the other side of that is a fluency and a freedom to express yourself in another language. It's just that's beautiful. I think of the Christian faith in terms of, in some ways, it's a grammar it's a way of life. It's also a grammar book. It's also it's a map of some sense, there's all sorts of ways that you can think about what the Christian life is like, and when you really understand the scope of what Jesus is offering here, there's so much freedom in feeling like I'm not chained to my past, to my sins, to my failures, to my flaws. I'm looking ahead to the day when, on the last day, I won't be less me. I won't be less trevan, but I will be most Trevin and most like Jesus, because that's who he created me, but he didn't want he didn't, he didn't. He doesn't want us all to be clones. He wants everyone in their own uniqueness, to shine a spotlight on his glory. So I will be the most myself and the most like Christ. That's what that's what the goal is. And so everything that we do now is an anticipation of that that's

Joshua Johnson: 24:52

so good. And I think that, you know, one of the things that helps me is I think that the way of the world, that's not the way of Jesus, is really just a. Facade, and it's not the real thing, like, it's the so the way of the world is not real. Where we're walking in the world and we're looking around, and we think that this is the real thing, but it's not. And if we lift our veils, and we could actually see what is underneath this facade that we're living in, that what that does for me is that, oh, I can live in the way of Jesus and whatever is coming at me from culture, or they're trying to shape me in different things. I'm like, that's just not real. That's not the right, like, it's just not real. It's just a fake thing that people are trying to do to control or to get something. And I start to to feel sad for everybody is like, let's look and see the real thing.

Unknown: 25:49

Back to like, who the real you is too. I mean, sometimes I hear, I hear believers talk about how they I think they see themselves as, oh, the stumbling, sinning sinning Christian who just can't ever get their act together, and that that's the real me and like no no sin is is not you at your most authentic sin is actually when you sin, you're going against the authenticity that you have in Jesus, what God has declared over you, when he has declared that you are His child and you in whom he is well pleased. You know, once God saves you, when if you sin, you know after salvation, as we all do, you're actually sinning against your newfound identity. You're not You're not more yourself when you sin, you're less yourself. It's a diminishing of humanity. It's not making you you know more yourself. And so to really be authentic in the Christian understanding, not authentic in the sense of, hey, just accept everyone. Just accept me as I am. Tell me my warts are beautiful, like we kind of have in the world. No, when you step into your Christian identity and you really want to be authentic as a Christian, then in that moment, it's the seeking of holiness as the seeking of you know, John Stott used to talk about self denial as intrinsic to the Christian life. But it's not just the denying of yourself and all of your desires as if you're just repressing and squashing. It's a it's a denying of what is untrue to you in order to accept and be fulfilled by what God says is now true of you. That's what self denial is it's always with that, that joy on the other side is what it's leading to.

Joshua Johnson: 27:24

If you look at at these 50 truths and these 50 questions that you have, what was one that was was hard for you to write, that maybe you struggled through it?

Unknown: 28:15

Oh, man. Well, there were a bunch that were harder, that were hard to write. I you know, as I'm as I'm looking through some of them, some of some of it is just trying to fit everything you want to say into an answer. So, like, one of the things, and I'm proud of how it came together, but, goodness, it was a long time getting there. But one of them is, you know, like the question, what is the Lord's Supper? You know, first of all, we're writing for people. We have a denominational tradition, but we're trying to write broadly, you know, for different and a lot of different denominations have different views of the supper, even different names for it, right? You've got the Lord's Supper, communion, mass, you know, Eucharist, whatever. But we want it. So we wanted to nod toward all of these different angles that coming at the Lord's Supper. And so this is the way we got it. I'll just give the answer if you're if you're okay with it, the Lord's Supper is communion with King Jesus at His table, with his people. We eat the bread and drink the cup, giving thanks for his body and blood strengthened for service by this foretaste of the feast to come. So basically, in that one answer, you've got communion with King Jesus and with other people, you know, the body of Christ, together, eating the bread, drinking the cup, giving thanks. That's Eucharist. Oh, that's the Eucharist for his body and blood strengthened for service. That's the sacramental understanding of that there is a strengthening grace that comes through the Lord's Supper when it's taken by faith and by the foretaste of the feast to come. So strengthen for service connects to the mass. Mass actually means sending, you know, that is, it's strengthening for the Christian life. And then foretaste of the feast to come is when Jesus says, you know, not only on the Are we looking back in a sort of memorial way, but we're looking ahead to when he drinks of the vine in his kingdom. We look forward and we continue to do this, as Paul says, until He comes. So you have that eschatological that, that end times element as well. But that was a hard one, because we had so much we wanted to say about the Lord's Supper, but, you know, we tried to pack it into that concise statement that would just be each word really full of truth. So

Joshua Johnson: 30:23

how does the focus and a knowledge of the global church around the world and what global Christianity is doing help you in ways, where you're you're writing and you could actually see these different perspectives. Was in things on the core tenets of the Christian faith.

Unknown: 30:43

You know, it was great, as we were working on, on the the final drafts of this last year, I got to attend the Lausanne Congress for world evangelization, which met in Seoul. And I think is about the largest group of of Evangelicals worldwide that have gathered. I mean, it was more than 5000 from, you know, so many countries. I mean, it was just incredible. And wife

Joshua Johnson: 31:03

and I said, we're not spending that much money to go, but it would have been been great to be back in Korea. But

Unknown: 31:12

it was, you know, it was my second time to Korea, but my first time in Korea and at a convention center with that many people, that many languages that my favorite day, I think, was the one where everyone, a lot of people, chose to wear traditional dress from their from their countries. And it, you know that just the variety I was reflecting on it afterwards, the worship services as well, in multiple languages and with so many people, just every tribe and tongue just represented there. You know, it made me homesick for a home I've never been to, basically. And so one of the passions that I've had in terms of trying to connect with believers in other parts of the world is they strengthen me. They strengthen my faith. They give me perspective on things that are happening in society. I I like to tell people that you need the global church in order to keep your sanity. And here's what you find out, the church is a mess everywhere, but it's not the same mess, so it's just different parts of the church are healthier in certain areas and more. And so we have gifts in North America to offer the global church, but churches in other parts of the world have gifts to to offer us, and we need each other in order to like, recognize what's what can, can I? Can I distinguish between what's the core and what's the crazy, like, what's the core of the Christian faith? And then whatever crazy stuff's happening around me in culture, like if I can, if I can, stay connected to believers in other parts of the world, to know really what the core is, why, why Christians are dying for their faith or being persecuted for their faith, that it gives you a level of stability, and it also opens up avenues for just seeing more interpretations of the Scriptures and how to really wrestle with the text that is really beautiful.

Joshua Johnson: 33:03

I was, I think it was, maybe it was last year or the year before I was I was applying for a job, having conversation with somebody that I may wanted to work for. I had a belief. I have a core belief that we need to learn from the global body of Christ in North America. And they said, Yes, absolutely. But the our audience doesn't really want to hear from the global church. They just want to hear from North Americans. And so we get our listenership is low. Things are, you know, so how? How can we help people in North America get a more global perspective, if, even if they don't think they need it or want it,

Unknown: 33:49

if I had the answer to that question, your podcast would be better. My podcast would be better. I mean, this is a, I mean, this is a great question. One of the things that the President, Michael Oh of Lausanne, said that sticks out to me is that the four of the worst words for Christianity are, I don't need you. And whenever As believers, we think we're fine on our own, with our own little communities, whether it's an individual who's like, I don't need the church, or whether it's a church that says I don't need any other churches, or whether it's churches in a society that say I don't need churches from outside of this society, the posture of I don't need you goes directly against what the Apostle Paul says when he talks about One Body many members. Now, obviously, Paul's talking there, particularly about the congregation, but the application of that does extend out, and it's, it's a strong application from Paul's own ministry. He's telling, you know, the Corinthians, you know why, to be generous to these other groups that are suffering in another part of the of the known world at the time so that I don't need you. Mentality is is so deadly because it's it's because it's false. We do. We do need each other. We may frustrate each other at times. We may get annoyed with each other, may get mad at each other, may disagree with each other, but we do need the witness of the of the church around the world. I've tried to in my own preaching and teaching and writing, and probably not done it enough. I have tried to to pepper into my preaching and teaching in sermons, quotes from or stories from the church around the world, also the Church throughout history, because we also. Need the people that have gone before us. We it's not like we are the be all, end all of Christianity as just simply a way of making it normal, normalizing this, this reality where I don't have to tell the church all the time we belong to a, you know, tradition that goes back 2000 years, or I don't have to tell the church all the time we belong to a worldwide community of faith. We just show it in what we sing and who we hear from, when we talk about missions, when we hear from believers in other parts of the world, I will say there's one thing that's on my heart on this, and I've been preparing a column about it, one thing that stands out to me is a lot of worship music in the world is basically transported from the United States and translated. And there's a lot of beauty in that, because, because people can sing the same songs, and there's a connection musically. But I My concern is in some and I know this from the Romanian context the work of Diane doors or Nicola diviano and others there. There's rich hymnity and worship in other parts of the world that come from from moments of persecution suffering particular challenges related to the context of whatever that church is. There are expressions of worship and praise that come up in other parts of the world that I think the American church would benefit from. So I would love to see more, rather than just sort of the American church and Western churches, exporting our songs to the rest of the world. I'd love to be able to see that wave come back toward us as well, so that we can really sing the songs of those believers in other parts of the world,

Joshua Johnson: 37:20

we rarely see that crossover coming back into the United States. I think, you know, waymaker was one that was Nigeria. And, you know, there's a few that that crossover, but you're right, it's mostly American songs going throughout the world. And man, you know, as I lived in the Middle East, and I'm, I'm going to a church in in Arabic, and we're singing songs that, like I grew up with in America, all these English songs, but they're translated into Arabic. I'm like, they feel good to me. But like, don't you have your own songs? And they do. There's a few of their own, which was beautiful as well, but there were so many that were like, Hey, we love the American songs. We're just going to translate them for us. And

Unknown: 38:04

I want to like, and again, I want music to minister to whoever music ministers do. There's no right and wrong here. It's just, if you know, you know, if the if President Trump wants to talk about trade deficits, can we talk about worship deficits between the countries? And I feel like we, we we export a whole lot of our stuff, and I just think we would be as blessed and strengthened if the churches around the world and these wonderful songs and hymns that come about, if we could benefit from them as well.

Joshua Johnson: 38:31

Yeah, there's, there's three things that you talked about in this conversation so far that I think is going to help some people think about our Gospel way, the catechism of who Jesus is, and the story and one you said, I mean, while you were reading it, you were reading King Jesus part of communion. You talked about changing allegiance in baptism, like so allegiance was really important. And I think that also goes with freedom, freedom to follow the ways of Jesus. What when we see Jesus as King, and what does that mean for us? And why is he King, and how does that help us live a Christian life, knowing that we have allegiance to King Jesus?

Unknown: 39:16

Yeah, I think this is, it's a crucial question. In fact, there's, there's been long standing debates, actually going back, you know, the whole Lordship, salvation debates and things like that. You know, can you have Jesus as Savior, not have Him as Lord and what? Now, I think it's vital that we see Jesus as the Crucified King, because that's the way the Gospels present him. That's the way the apostles talk about him. What's challenging for us in our day is we don't really have the notion of kingship like that anymore. I was just finishing a book by about Thomas Cranmer, the reformer during the Reformation period. He's the one who drafted the First Book of Common Prayer in the became really the pivotal cornerstone of the English language, but also of the Anglican tradition in particular. And one of the things that's fascinating about that whole story, it's very messy. It's very complicated. What's going on between Protestants and Catholics at the time Cranmer zone shifting views. Some of your listeners may know that Cranmer initially recanted his Protestant beliefs under Queen Mary, and then recanted his recantation in the university church in Oxford, they dragged him out by his beard to the place where they burned him, and he put his hand in the fire. First that he had done to sign the you know that he had signed the Rec. He said the hand that offends will be the hand that burns first. I mean, it's just fascinating story. But Cranmer is complicated in part because he has this, this such a high view of kingship that it's basically like, well, whatever King Henry the Eighth however many wives were in now, whatever King Henry says is gotta go. And then he the same thing with King Edward. And then, really, he's doing the same thing with with Queen Mary, but, but he has this mindset of, I am the subject to the king, and I do what the king says, even to the to the point of, at times, you know, fudging on his doctrine, or having to change things here and there. Now we look at that and we think, well, that's just part of us thinks, you know he should have defied the king. You know he should have but, but another part of me thinks there is, there's a kernel of truth in what, in the way that we should look, not at earthly kings, but certainly the way we should look at King Jesus, is that no matter what, our loyalty is to him, our trust is in him personally. We, we, we trust him. We want to obey Him. We, you know, I Henry Blackaby used to say it's an oxymoron to say No Lord, you can't say no Lord. Like, if you say no, you're, you're, you're not letting him be Lord, you know, like it's a it's an oxymoron. Even put those two words together, and I think, I think it's very important for us, especially in a world where we don't have a monarchy, we don't have that Cranmer whole idea is just foreign to us. But to recognize, when it comes to the Lord, when it comes to our king, he calls us to follow in his way, and we're to drop our nets and follow, leave our tax collector booth and go, you know, that's that's the vision. I

Joshua Johnson: 42:18

know that there's a lot of debates with savior and Lord, but I just know that my life has looked drastically different when I said Yes, Lord, and I made Jesus Lord, and I said, Whatever you say, I will say yes, and my life has been amazing since then, and I struggled a lot to say, Okay, I'm doing so much for you, God, Aren't you pleased with me? And then I shifted and go, Okay, Jesus, I'll just follow you, and you tell me, and I will say, yes. And man, life has been so much better since then. I mean, it's not perfect, of course, because no Christian life is perfect, but it's been so much better. And so, yeah, giving allegiance to King Jesus is man. It is the way of life, the way of flourishing, and it is an incredible life that you could have when you actually say yes, and you make Jesus Lord,

Unknown: 43:12

and it is the way of freedom, too. That's the other thing, because Jesus knows how. Jesus knows your heart better than you do, right? So when he tells you to do something, even if it goes against what you want, and you know, and when you say, it makes life better, we have to qualify that, because,

Joshua Johnson: 43:30

you know, make it more

Unknown: 43:31

comfortable. No, it doesn't make it easier, and doesn't make it like. It's like, but it is better in the sense of this is what you were made for. And so you feel that even though it may be harder, it may be a harder life. You know, I think saying yes to Jesus will complicate your life more than simplify it, usually, because it's going to lead to all kinds of other things. But doing that, but walking his way with him, and he doesn't just tell us to walk the way alone. It's with him. I think that's, that's what makes all the difference.

Joshua Johnson: 44:00

So if you could talk to people pick up the gospel way catechism, how would you envision people using this? How do you want to see this utilized within the church? What? What can people do to to implement this as part of the life of the church and life of discipleship for people as they're following Jesus. So

Unknown: 44:21

we designed it to be flexible, and so that it would, it would be able to really fit some different ways of using it. But I'll tell you what we what we would love to see the most. There are 50 questions and answers with some brief commentary, some reflection questions, discussion questions, things like that. So that's where that's, that's what it is. So, you know, thinking through a church, I think the best way to get the most use out of this would be, you're going to take a year with a group, and you're going to, basically, you've got 50 questions and answers. Give yourself a couple of weeks off here and there. Maybe you bunch up a couple of weeks if you need to, if you got vacations, but you go through, you know, one a week, and it becomes the the focus of your memorization and your discussion. That's one way to do this. We have a kids version coming out next year that's simplified so that in that scenario, it would be great if you know the church is doing this all at once, or if parents are doing it on their own and doing it with their kids as well, the kids are learning them the easier version. The parents are learning the harder version. But they're both, you know, they're, it's, it's meant to be memorizable. I mean, we had, you know, I one of our I had had some, some people with real artistic sensibility come behind us here and help us to craft it in such a way. To make it flow. And Michael card, the singer songwriter, gave us some suggestions on that front. So kind of stylistically. So I think that's the main way. But then, you know, there are other other groups are going to be like, Oh, we want to do this in seven weeks, seven questions a week, you know, whatever. You know, that's fine too. That'll work. And then if someone just wants to do it devotionally, one a day or one every few days, to, kind of like, memorize, or just not even memorize, but just go through it devotionally to kind of get a tune up or a refresher on Christian truth, but in a way that has that eye toward, hey, how does this make me stand out in the world? Like, how does this make me live Jesus's way as opposed to the world's way? I think it would be richly beneficial, even for an individual working through it and the discussion questions on their

Joshua Johnson: 46:24

own. Trevin, I have a couple of quick questions I like to ask at the end. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give? Oh, wow,

Unknown: 46:32

I got to think about when I was 21 Oh, I would tell my 21 year old self you're gonna you're gonna face some setbacks and challenges and disappointments in the death of some dreams. Trust God through that, because he knows what he's doing. I would tell my 21 year old self that, because that's been multiple times since then when that's been the case and there's some tears when a dream dies. But you just got to know the Lord's got it, and the Lord's plan will make more sense. Generally, it has for me. Anyway, with a little more time and a little more perspective, you look back and say, God, thanks for not answering that prayer. And so I just, I tell my 21 year old self, just chill out when you get to those moments. You

Joshua Johnson: 47:19

know, anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend,

Unknown: 47:23

oh, you know, I was just, I just mentioned that Thomas Cramer biography by dear maid McCulloch, that was a fascinating read and very complicated, because it's, it's very complicated era. But I really, I really do love history and biography, and I recently, I've been making my way through Robert Caro's massive volumes on the life of Lyndon B Johnson, which LBJ is not a president that people look back and be like, oh, I want to read four volumes about Lyndon Johnson, but Robert Caro is just an Amazing biographer. How he tells, how he gives the details about what's going on, contextually at the time and whatnot. And so I've done three out of the four that are already out. I'm hoping that Robert Caro lives long enough to finish the last one, but they're, they're really excellent, and now I understand what all the fuss is about, because I've heard people talk about those for a long time, and they really are an achievement. Wow,

Joshua Johnson: 48:22

that's great. Well, the Gospel way catechism will be out wherever you get books, and you can use that, buy them for your church to help people go through this. Good Is there anywhere else that you'd like to point people to? Yeah, you can just

Unknown: 48:38

go to gospelwaycatechism.com if you're interested in it, it'll show you there's a workbook with it as well. So it's, it's just, it's got some couple of videos that explain it. But yeah, we'd love for anyone to check it out for their own benefit or for their churches benefit. And we just, our prayer is that it'll just be a good discipleship tool to help the church, you know, look a little more like Jesus. Excellent.

Joshua Johnson: 48:59

Well, Trevin, thank you for this conversation to help us know what it looks like to follow King Jesus in this world, this crazy world that we live in, and thank you for this great resource. I appreciate the conversation. Really had a good time talking to you. So thanks so much. You

Unknown: 49:19

you.