Ep. 338 Liz Theoharis & Charon Hribar - We Pray Freedom

Prayer can be more than quiet reflection — it can be protest, solidarity, and a catalyst for justice. In this episode of Shifting Culture, I talk with Liz Theoharis and Charon Hribar about their new book We Pray Freedom, a collection of prayers, songs, and liturgies born out of the Freedom Church of the Poor.

We explore how faith traditions can sustain movements, how ritual can become resistance, and how communities on the margins are leading us toward a more just and abundant world. From prayer in homeless encampments to liturgy at the border, this conversation invites us to see that prayer isn’t escape — it’s action, hope, and transformation.

Rev. Dr. Liz Theoharis is a theologian, pastor, author, and anti-poverty activist. She is the Executive Director of the Kairos Center for Religions, Rights, and Social Justice and Co-Chair of the Poor People’s Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival. Rev. Dr. Theoharis has been organizing in poor and low-income communities for the past 30 years. Her books include: We Cry Justice: Reading the Bible with the Poor People’s Campaign (Broadleaf Press, 2021) and Always with Us?: What Jesus Really Said about the Poor (Eerdmans, 2017) and she has been published in the New York Times, Politico, the Washington Post, Sojourners and elsewhere. Rev. Dr. Theoharis is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (USA) and teaches at Union Theological Seminary.

Dr. Charon Hribar is a movement song leader, cultural organizer, and social ethicist. She serves as the director of cultural strategies for the Kairos Center and as co-director of theomusicology and movement arts for the Poor People's Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival. She cofounded Songs in the Key of Resistance and has been instrumental in creating music and cultural resources like the Songs in the Key of Resistance Songbook and the We Cry Justice Cultural Arts Project. Dr. Hribar combines on-the-ground organizing with teaching and leading social-movement music nationwide, empowering communities to integrate arts into their efforts for justice.

Liz and Charon's Book:

We Pray Freedom

Liz and Charon's Recommendation:

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Transcript

Liz Theoharis: 0:00

And I think that our communities, our communities of faith, have to be restructuring edifices that that are producing beggars and that are requiring us to have handouts, and that if we're not doing that, we're actually not doing the work of Jesus. You Joshua,

Joshua Johnson: 0:27

hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, in this episode of shifting culture, I'm joined by Liz Theoharis and Charon rebar to talk about their new book. We pray freedom born out of the Freedom Church of the poor. This book gathers prayers and liturgies and songs that don't just comfort individuals, but equip whole communities to resist empire, to imagine ritual as collective action and to hold on to hope in the face of despair. We talk about prayer as a form of protest grounded in biblical stories like the persistent widow who demands justice from an unjust judge. We hear about communities that gather in homeless encampments outside immigration courts and at the US Mexico border, where prayer isn't an escape from reality, but a way of naming what's wrong and insisting on change. Liz and Sharon remind us that rituals of faith have always carried the cries of the marginalized, and that when we pray with our feet, sing with our neighbors and create spaces of solidarity, we join in the struggle for a more just and beautiful world. This is a conversation about reclaiming faith traditions as movements for justice, about breaking cycles of oppression, and about how collective prayer and art can become fuel for transformation. It's about abundance instead of scarcity, community instead of isolation, and hope instead of resignation. So whether you come from a church pew, a protest line, or somewhere in between, this episode will invite you to see prayer and ritual as powerful tools to shift culture, resist empire and imagine freedom together. So join us. Here is my conversation with Liz Theoharis and Sharon rebar. Liz and Sharon, welcome to shifting culture. Really excited to have both of you on so thank you for joining me. Thanks for having us. Yes, I'd love to know we pray freedom, this book of liturgies and prayers for organizing for justice, the freedom church for the poor. How did this all come about? And what is this collection? What are you hoping to get from this?

Charon Hribar: 2:37

So we pray freedom, as it says, is coming out of the work of the Freedom Church of the poor. And the freedom Church of the poor began back in 2020 when the pandemic was full on. And, you know, as folks were weren't able to kind of meet in their traditional spaces of worship or faith spaces, we started a space online where folks would gather, a lot of movement leaders who were driven by faith and and folks that were also, you know, maybe pastoring traditional congregations or other faith spaces. Because we again, we weren't meeting physically. It became an online space that was really a way for people to gather during that time. But what we found was that it was also became a space that people just really needed. And so it has actually continued on. It's a place we talk about it as a political and spiritual home for leaders that are again, both connected to social movements, but also connected to the role of faith in that work. And so it has become a place where people come together and really both share kind of the experiences and stories of their communities and the struggles they're a part of, as well as help to sustain that work through these kind of faith practices. And so the stories in this book come out of that community. And while that started in 2020 the stories actually reach much further back, because many folks in this network have worked together for for many years and struggle across the country. It's people that have for years seen kind of the power that our faith traditions hold in both like being stories or struggle. Our faith traditions actually are filled with stories of struggle, of communities that have, you know, been fighting for justice and fighting to sustain their communities and fighting for a different world. So drawing on those traditions naturally in the work that we do today, that the stories of prayers and liturgies and songs that have really held communities across the country in this work, and you know, both in the streets, as well as in spaces of mutual aid and soup kitchens and as well as spaces where people are gathering to think about what does organizing for a different way of living in a different world that we can see and so that's really this book is a compilation of these stories and these practices and a way for both. Organizers to think about how we are able to like draw on these traditions and incorporate faith and cultural practices into movement building, as well as for faith communities to think about and reimagine kind of our our traditions in ways that call us to social justice work and call us into practices that are about transforming the world and again, lifting up the kind of stories of struggle that exist in our in our faith traditions that are there and just how do we make that applicable for today?

Joshua Johnson: 5:31

Let's hear you frame prayer as a sort of protest, and that you could actually use this in in organizing. How do you define prayer in terms of justice movements, and why is it a form of protest?

Liz Theoharis: 5:46

Yeah, I love this question, and again, thanks so much for having us here, and it's exciting to be in conversation about about all of this. We use a biblical story to talk about this kind of prayer as protest, and it's one of my favorite Bible passages. It's the story of this persistent widow who comes to plead for for justice to an unjust judge and and what's amazing to me about this story, even though it's from 1000s of years ago, is is it describes that this is her prayer like, this is what it looks like to prayer, pray without ceasing. And then it goes on to tell the story of not sitting quietly with her head bowed and her hands folded, but instead, this woman who has been experiencing injustice, marginalization, I imagine, impoverishment and discrimination, and they don't. They don't tell us a lot about her case, but, but we know from the ancient world, which is not that different than our world today. You know, there's all forms and layers of kind of intersectional injustice going on and and she comes in front of a judge, and the the text is really clear that this judge, they basically say, doesn't give a damn about other human beings and doesn't even fear God. And yet, in her prayer, in her petitioning this judge, in her I imagine organizing her community to come and be in collaboration and solidarity with her, they're probably experiencing similar injustices, she's able to win justice. And so to me, it's like a paradigm or a window into looking at what prayer and protest are and and, you know, I think many of us will, will, will remember this, you know, famous and powerful statement of Rabbi Joshua Heschel, when he was marching across the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama, with Dr King and John Lewis and you know, many others. And when his congregation is kind of saying, Well, what's, what's the role of prayer here? And he's like, Well, I have to pray with my feet. I think many of us have have heard, especially those that are are inclined towards doing justice organizing and freedom organizing, but to actually imagine that that protest and prayer, you know, whether it's in that case, or whether it's in the case of this unjust judge and this persistent widow, or if it's in the case of you know, some of the stories that we tell in this book. You know folks that are petitioning to not be deported and detained. Who are, you, know, gathering with their colleagues and singing and praying. But that prayer is not just bowing your head and and folding your hands, but it's it's saying, demanding of society and demanding of our religious institutions to be on the side of of the poor, the marginalized, the immigrant, the the other. And I think to imagine, in our biblical text, there are all of these stories of of the people crying out, right and and sometimes that cry is is literally a wailing yesterday, I was outside of immigration court in New York City at the Federal Plaza, and we literally wailed at the building as hundreds of people are going in, many of them being detained against judges wishes. So there's sometimes, though, crying out that's a wailing, and then sometimes there's a crying out that's actually like in in the form of protest, you know, saying this is not just. This is not right. And it's, it's a story of the Bible that happens over and over again. It's, it's only when people cry out, it's only when people protest that then God hears the cries and and joins in the struggle for justice. And so I think what we're what we're looking at in this text and in many of the stories and rituals that are contained is this kind of call and response, like people cry out and pray and protest for the righting of wrongs and God joins us in lots of different forms of who God is and who how God shows up for people across religious tradition and even. Folks that do not consider themselves people of faith, but believe in the arc of the universe bending, or at least needing us to bend it towards justice. And so I think that's where this all kind of plays out for us.

Joshua Johnson: 10:13

I think one of the things that a lot of people, if I'm looking at social media or something, they say, oh, some horrible thing has happened, pray for them, or I'm gonna do a little protest, if I'm gonna put a black box or whatever on my social media page and like, but what is the difference then, of prayer as something to be like, Hey, I'm just gonna pray, or prayer as protest, prayer as like, I'm gonna put my feet and walk my prayers. I'm going to be out there. What's that difference? And how can we shift the culture to say that prayer actually has some action to it?

Charon Hribar: 10:50

Yeah, I think one of the things is that in our society, we often, when we say the word prayer, we have this like it's an internal thing. It's our personal conversation with God. And even when we're saying we'll pray for you, you know, it's still we're praying to God and hoping that something will, you know, happen and and it, you know, there is power in prayer. And you know, I think the piece of we've lost a lot of the collective sense of what that means, and the participatory sense of what that means in our culture. And even you know, when we think about you know that we have certain days that we go and we worship together. And I had a we had a professor at Union years ago that used to talk about ritual is supposed to be a practice for us to remind and reinforce in ourselves the values that we believe in, so that we can go and actually do that in the world, right? And so, you know, when we say we should pray and we should, you know, it be involved in ritual. Ritual is actually something that is about a continual practice that we're doing in our everyday lives, right? It's not reserved only for that one day a week or that one special moment, right? But it's actually about that we have to go and do this practice. And I think there's something about prayer and ritual that we're lifting up, both out of these traditions and in this book, that is really about our collective practice of, you know, living out our values of lifting up, kind of a vision of the world that our you know that God and what our faith traditions are calling for, and you know so in that you know, what does that practice become to look like? You know, it is takes multiple forms, right? It takes the form of protest. It takes the form of gathering as a community to make sure that all of our needs are met and that the justice that our communities deserve, you know, is actually lived out in this world. And so that, I think that's that calling and that that redefining and understanding of prayer and ritual in that way,

Joshua Johnson: 12:51

when I'm looking at living in the Empire, which I am in America, and I live in the empire, and live in a very strong country, and there are pockets of people that would love to pray, but they want to hold on to power and Empire. How can people start to separate themselves from Empire and then in the ways of Jesus and embody who he is for the poor and the marginalized and the people and the outcasts, which constantly is going for. What does it look like to help separate out and like, figure out that I've may have been influenced more by the Empire than Jesus?

Liz Theoharis: 13:36

Mean, I love this. It also makes me think again about the Bible, because I think where John the Baptizer shows up is out in the wilderness, because he has to kind of pull people away from the trappings of empire, right? Like to both imagine what it really is to worship God, to imagine what kind of community we could be living in, you know, kind of the beloved community, the kind of ideals of of a community of faith, right? And a faith, not just in, you know, Jesus, but a faith of Jesus, right, which means turning over tables. I mean, one of our colleagues has been showing up with this sticker and this t shirt recently that says, like, why are you trying to sit at the tables that Jesus would turn over, right? Like, and I think it's like, that's kind of the question I hear you posing, and I think we struggle with it all the time, right? We are living in one of the richest countries in human history before some of this most extremist you know, this, this reconciliation bill and other kind of amazing, unbelievable transfers of wealth and power from the bottom to the top. That's happening. We already had almost half of the country living in in forms of poverty, marginalization, you know, like, I mean, this is a great definition of empire, right? And yet, it is really true that so many of us are being. Kind of trapped by Empire, and can't even quite see all the ways that we're not, not just with our individual actions, but just with the with our body politic, like how we're being shaped and and and doing exactly what those in power want us, which is opposite of of what it is to be, you know, truly obedient and living in to to what our sacred texts and traditions, you know, say, and that's not just Christianity, but you know, as a Christian pastor, I'm, I'm speaking particularly from Christianity, and so I mean what I have found, and what I think we are trying to show through all of these prayers and rituals in this book and and in the practices of the Freedom Church of the poor and and and beyond, is that what kind of can break through that is the bold and visionary actions of folks whose backs are against the wall, as Howard Thurman talks about it, and have no choice but to push instead of just kind of asking people, like, hey, just pay attention to where you are. Instead of just, like, going to a church and trying to, you know, preach a different sermon. All those things are great. We need to do it. But, but like, like thinking about something, like the woman with a flow of blood in the Bible, like, how she she doesn't wait for someone else to do something. She just like, goes in, she takes action. That bold action changes everything. It kind of uncovers the Empire, and it makes people respond. And, you know, I think about whether it's on House folks taking over an abandoned church, and then, you know, causing a huge uproar and a conversation and debate in our faith communities about what, what should the religious response to poverty be, or whether it's, you know, us putting up a huge memorial to the millions that have died from covid when the rest of society, just like wouldn't, wouldn't, actually stop and mourn, and developing a ritual out of that like, I think we see that when you know poor and marginalized communities, you know are able to kind of arrest the attention of the nation and and and come forward with bold ritual and protest, that then it makes us question, and it creates a little bit of that wilderness in any place, because it's you start to unveil what the Empire is and what it's doing, and show that we don't have to actually all just like, bow our heads and and, you know, and bow to this, but that actually we can. We can join those that have that are being compelled into action and have to do something new, or their very lives and livelihoods and survival is at risk and at

Joshua Johnson: 17:49

stake. If you're organizing against Empire while living in the empire, it could be dangerous, because any any power that controls and wants authority is going to crack down to make sure that control and authority stays, but there are a lot of cracks in that. So can you give me an example of what, what organizing ritual prayer protests, how that subverts empire and helps people, but maybe even in a way that it is dangerous and we could count the cost, and the cost is worth it.

Charon Hribar: 19:09

There's two examples I wanted to share in thinking about that. The first, I mean, one, I think, is especially in this moment where we see this rise of kind of white Christian nationalism and authoritarianism kind of being a dominant narrative. And I think it does want to have prayer be this internal, personal, you know, space and just claiming that it's, you know, on the side of those in power. I think about a story that we tell in the book about community in Aberdeen, Washington, and they, they did a Stations of the Cross to remind folks that, you know, what was the cross? You know, was a symbol of empire, right? And equating and talking about that in their community as you know, Jesus was crucified by the Empire, and what was that cross that he was, you know, it's not that he it's, you know, we tell a story that removes that story from the systems of empire. And so they, when they did the Stations of the Cross, they actually, you know, it was a community in Aberdeen where homeless, especially young people, and that had become homeless because of lack of employment in their communities, you know, and and with that, not having opportunities to, you know, really find other jobs and kind of the then infiltration of drugs and other things that just were, you know, plaguing that community, and really telling them that they're not worthy, right, that they're it's their fault that they're in this situation, and by taking up the Stations of the Cross with the stories of. Of of the people in that encampment that were living in a homeless encampment, and talking about the different ways that the Empire was crushing them, you know, whether it be by, you know, because of, you know, drug addiction, by being killed by police, by, you know, people's children being taken away. They actually, through each station, told those stories and people seeing themselves in the story of Jesus and pushing back against the Empire by coming together, right? And, you know, I think that that is a way to show this kind of counter narrative of what this kind of authoritarian narrative is right, by Re reconnecting the story of Jesus to the stories of these struggling communities. The other story I wanted to tell, and thinking about, you talked about, you know, there is danger in it, but also, how do we reach the people that, in some ways, are also just pawns of this system? And I was thinking about an action we did at the border back in 2019 2018 or 2019 when the migrant caravan was coming up to the San Diego Tijuana border, and we had a large group of multi faith leaders and other, you know, people of moral conscience that were doing a protest and silent protest and prayerful protests to the border to stand in solidarity with migrants and our Right to, you know, to migrate and to, you know, claim asylum, which is quite relevant in this moment as well, and in that we were, you know, confronted by a, you know, every kind of level of law enforcement, border patrol, you know, military, local police, you know, in riot gear For a peaceful protest. You know, as we were there, there was we talk about in the book, you know, we were also singing songs that, you know, some of them were, you know, kind of rallying the crowd and talking about our standing with our sisters and brothers, you know, or migrating, and the need for that no one is illegal. But as the kind of tensions grew, especially with the folks that were there, kind of defending the border, right, we started to sing a song that said, love, love, love, love. Sisters, brothers. Hear our call. We will not bow to injustice. God loves us all, but in a tone that was also, like, really penetrating the folks that were standing there, you know, defending the border in their riot gear, of saying, like, you don't have to do this, right? I think we see this in this moment, as we see, you know, folks being detained and folks being, you know, and going to immigration courts. And I think people in communities are really also like seeing, you know, police officers coming to stand with, you know, communities, and because we see people in our communities that are being harmed, and we know that the kind of narratives that they're saying about who these people are not true, right? And so being able to expose that through these rituals, and to be able to connect to one another on a human level, right, and to call out the sacredness that is in every life, right, that is a really important part of these kind of rituals, to to kind of acknowledge that humanity and to see that we're all, we all can be against what the kind of empire and what the powers that be are doing.

Joshua Johnson: 24:05

I think in in history, I I've seen a lot of the people that have been oppressed, that have come and found some justice, they start to take power, and then they oppress others. There's there's this cycle of oppression that that happens, I would love to break that cycle, that we could say there is enough for everyone that we're, you know, the poor and the marginalized are, are in together, and we could be be one and united. How do we break that cycle? What is this better world that you're imagining? What does it look like I

Liz Theoharis: 24:41

really appreciate this, and I feel like I both see that play out, and I also feel like when poor and marginalized folk are able to win changes as a collective and a community, it doesn't always have to play out that way, and that I think instead, sometimes, often, those in power that say like, you know, power corrupts and absolute, power corrupts absolutely, because they're more or less saying, like, you don't want to be like me, you know, like and instead of exactly, let me just keep it right now, I'm, you know, we know it's it's gonna taint you, it's gonna corrupt you, right? And I think it really does come down to, are people there as individuals, or are we able to build the kind of power that holds those in power, whether they're coming from poor and marginalized communities and experiences or not accountable? And so I think so often. And in the more recent, kind of organizing world changing who individually has a position of power is what people attempt to do, instead of kind of changing how it's done in the first place. I imagine, for instance, we've learned a lot around ritual and and protest and organization from different folks across the world. And so I think about like the largest social movement of peasants in the Western Hemisphere. They're called the MST, the movemento sometera. They're in Brazil, and they're, you know, one to 2 million peasant families that are organized, landless families that are organized together. You know, they play on a national level, they're organized in every state across Brazil. They've built alliances with people in power. They've helped to establish schools through the federal government that are just the public schools, but they're kind of run by folks that are part of the movement, and in their examples and in the way that they are organized, like they understand that their power comes from the people. And so they're, you know, hyper democratic movement each encampment, like each kind of tent city that people are living at, you know, elects, you know, a diverse grouping of people that that represent that encampment. And then they they go to, like, the next body of people, and it's, again, a very like it's very representational, and folks are therefore very accountable, and they've been able to show, I think, us, how a bottom up movement actually looks and can be organized. And then, therefore, when people are in positions of power and authority, including politically and economically in society, how it can stay accountable to the kind of needs and demands of people. But in this country, I think about, you know, some of the different organizing we've been a part of, and including with unhoused folk and low wage workers. And there's some of that. I mean, I think about a group like the coal is from a motley workers down in in southwest Florida who have been able to kind of bring a bunch of the fast food corporations and grocery store chains to their knees because of the kind of organization and discipline and power that a group of mainly undocumented immigrants have been able to build that are some of the lowest paid workers that are left out of the Labor Relations Act. You know? I mean, this should be a very vulnerable, very marginalized group, and they have been able to hold folk accountable because they're united, because they're organized. You know, those two examples are, are examples of like what it looks like to be in grassroots ministries or churches or communities and be really united. Where it's not that you think that getting one person elected is going to save the day, but the movement, you know, sends folks to apply to run for those elected offices, and then they understood that they're accountable to the people and to the community and to the movement if and when they're elected, and not to the kind of interests and and so I think it's, it's it's not easy, but I think we are seeing examples of of that kind of power building and that kind of accountability that folks can demand. I think that feels really distance in this moment, because when you have a kind of an authoritarian regime, it's like the absolute opposite, but also it's, it's what many people are kind of demanding of this moment and and so I think, I think, I think it could break through.

Joshua Johnson: 29:19

I hope it can break through. And I hope we could could see that. But if you look at bottom up movements in a lot of places, you're looking at a there's like micro level changes that we're trying to make at a smaller level, maybe community level. How does that get to the the macro to see a large change in in a country of three, 30 million people, how does it move from micro to macro to see big changes?

Charon Hribar: 29:51

Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things you know that we often reflect on in our work and in ways in this book, is, you know, the really the need to study social movements and to study how does change happen? Because I think we often either see just what's happening at the top and like the kind of final legislation that we'll go through, or we see the very local things that we're connected to, right? But when you look at and you study kind of things like the abolitionist movement or the civil rights movement or the labor movement, you know that, like there were, so there have to be all of these pieces happening simultaneously and right, and that there have to be, especially, I think what we, I think, Miss sometimes, is, you know how what that local work has to be about building long term. Permanently organized communities of tight knit people that then when we can create kind of the spaces of coalition and campaigns that can be about building a larger force to kind of move those larger bodies of you know, whether it be legislation or even more further progressive change, right, that we're able to kind of connect those people. And so it's a lot about, how do we then put people in relationship to one another that are doing that local work? But we can't. We can't bypass either side of that, right? We can't just call for something national and, you know, and think that if we can just get all of kind of the national entities together, if they don't have a base of people that are doing that deep local organizing work, and that might not, that might look really different, right? It might take many different forms. And I think one of the things we lift up is it can take, you know, the form of handing out food in a food pantry or serving soup in a soup kitchen, but that is a way of of really knowing the people in your community and knowing that, like that, understanding and talking about the issues that are impacting our community, that can then be connected. And there has to be an intentional space to actually then connect it to something bigger as well, right? Like it doesn't just magically happen, right? And so there does need to then be the work of kind of, building leadership, of connecting that leadership, and, you know, moving toward a political program. But again, I think it's, it's a recognition that you have to kind of understand that there are kind of many stairs on the staircase right, and you can't just kind of jump over them.

Joshua Johnson: 32:16

When I think of Jesus, I think of Luke chapter four, and what he actually presents and says, This is what I'm all about, right? As I'm bringing good news to the poor, like, that's the one of the first things that he says that he's about, and he says it's been fulfilled. So he's he's all about the poor. Can you speak to faith communities that actually may have a lot of money, maybe are the rich, and they look at the poor and say, we're going to give some money. We're doing our stuff. We're just giving money. How does something like this? How can we pray freedom be utilized within richer faith communities to have some more solidarity with the poor, identify more with the poor, and not just like give handouts to the

Liz Theoharis: 33:46

poor. Absolutely, amen, that is the question. And I love the example from Luke four, right? Because what? What's clearly going on in this, in this passage, for one good news, gospel, Evangelion, right? I mean, it's at the core of what it's supposed to be to be a person of faith, right? And somehow we, for one, have spiritualized that, right? And And so somehow the gospel and the good news are like, are otherworldly. And, you know, all of these things, there's, there's nowhere that Jesus says that, right? I mean, the prayer that he teaches is, like, canceled debts, you know, like, I mean, just, like, Sure, spiritualized, exactly, right, just the way we have spiritualized all of this stuff. And then also in that text from Luke four, I mean, it's, it's good news to the patokos, like those who have been made poor by injustice. And so the good news, like, for one, it's not the bad news of eviction and healthcare cuts and snap cuts. I mean, we just have to be very clear that anyone that calls themselves a Christian and is is passing policies that prey on the poor is in contradiction with the inaugural sermon of Jesus and the the core teachings and beliefs and so like that hard stop. We have to, we have to notice that. We have to call that out. We have to show that that is there. There couldn't be, actually much more on Christian than that. But then second is that, like, the good news is not individualized. I mean, good news is about, you know, restructuring society from the bottom up. It's about, you know, canceling debts and paying workers living wages. And so therefore, if our faith communities are interested in doing charity and not justice, if our, you know, more wealthy faith communities and institutions, you know, think that throwing handouts at at individuals, instead of advocating for a society that puts people first and that lifts from the bottom so everybody rises again. That also, in addition to like, you know, calling out the the like so called Christians that are passing policies to cut people off of Medicaid being anathema. We actually have to call out, you know, well meaning, wealthy Christians who think that charity and handouts are living into Matthew 25 or Luke four, or any of these texts out as well, because it's, it's that's not at all what we're learning. It's not at all what Jesus. Is suggesting, you know, he, he, he's talking about really restructuring society in the image of justice and abundance for all right, like that's what the reign of God, the kingdom of God, you know, is, is to be. And so I think there's a place to kind of unite with, with Christian communities and faith institutions that that out of the kindness and the goodness of their their hearts and their their faith are are figuring out how to buy bikes for kids and how to, you know, feed people like that's important, but if it's not linked to then kind of this more structural change even I think about a favorite quote from Dr King, where he talks about true compassion is more than flinging a coin at a beggar. It, it. It requires restructuring at edifice that has produced beggars, right? And I think that our communities, our communities of faith, have to be restructuring edifices that that are producing beggars and that are requiring us to have handouts, and that if we're not doing that, we're actually not doing the work of Jesus. It's not to make us feel bad, it's not to make us feel guilty, it's not to say we're not doing enough. It's like, okay, how do we figure and configure the work of our churches and our faith institutions to be actually bringing about the good news, which, which means both on a policy level and a structural level, and and it means actual transformative change in people's lives, not, you know, a little bit of food for a hot minute, and then where we mostly pat ourselves in the back, and mostly are proud and and, you know, I think the most famous, famous passage in the Bible about poverty, which is the poor will be with you always. I think it's telling us exactly the opposite of what it's been interpreted as, saying where, I think people there also take that passage to be like the best we can do is is handouts and charity. And I think that what's happening by Jesus quoting Deuteronomy 15, one of the most radical Jubilee passages in the Bible, like we're we're being reminded that, like that, handouts and proceeds to the poor are not what works and that and not what God requires, and not what Jesus is teaches, but instead, actually just are a part of keeping an empire in place. And what instead we're required to do is to, is to, you know, organize society around the needs of everybody, which means starting with those that are most marginalized and and pushed

Joshua Johnson: 39:04

out good word. What do you hope and how can people use we pray, freedom. What does it look like to take these liturgies, these rituals, and utilize some of these things within their communities, the things that they're organizing for?

Charon Hribar: 39:18

Well, the book is really set together to be of a resource that people can use in community and and, you know, and personal reflection. But really we, I think we do see it being used in community. The way it's set up is, often we tell the story and context of a community. And you know, where does this ritual come out of? And then it offers, you know, whether it be a prayer or a liturgy or a song, the actual piece. And then there's often kind of reflection questions at the end of each section to think and to think about really applying it in your community. And so, you know, it's, it's meant to create parallels for people. You know, we all have unique experiences, but it's also tapping into, like, what is the, you know, the human experience, and what are the struggles of our communities? And while they might be exactly the same, we can find, you know, it's helping us unearth and think about, you know, our own our own struggles in our own communities. And so it's really like people can, you know, take kind of the prayers and songs and use them. Or it can also be a way to inspire people to kind of reimagine these kind of rituals. You know, it, it goes from anywhere from like taking a communion ritual that has a very basic, you know, it's the same words, right? That might be recited, but it takes it, instead of just doing it in your church on Sunday, it takes it into a homeless encampment. What does it look like who we're practicing communion with, right? And so there's lots of different touch points for communities to connect with in this book, and to be able to think about both like creating new rituals and giving examples of that, as well as reimagining, you know, prayers and rituals that they might already use regularly. But how do we reconnect them to these like long stories of struggle that are in our faith traditions and and bring those to life in current struggles. And then one last thing I'll add is that we are currently creating a website that will be a companion website for the book. And in the book, as you read it, there are little icons that remind you you can go to this website and. Because they offer actually, like the videos of songs and, you know, kind of further videos of different kind of rituals, so that people can see that and hear it as well as read it, so that they can further be inspired and bring that story to life

Joshua Johnson: 41:35

briefly, before I move to a few questions. I really like to ask at the end, I want to know if you're looking at songs, also things like arts, different creative prophetic acts, how does that help the prophetic movements, just the arts and and culture and songs? How does that move the needle?

Charon Hribar: 42:01

Over and over again? You know, I think we recognize when you can bring song and culture into movement spaces. It helps to connect us, I think, both to a real history of struggle, like by teaching songs that have been used and and the creation of new ones. But there's something that happens beyond kind of just being able to talk about things when you're using art and culture, right? You're able to tap into deeply held emotions and beliefs and feelings by these kind of prophetic traditions of using music. And we, you know, we talk, I talk a lot about how, in some ways, like music actually scientifically connects us, because as we sing together, we actually start to breathe together, and our hearts meet together. And there's something physically that happens when we're actually able to kind of engage in these practices collectively. And I think it's also a way of, kind of bringing participatory art and music back into these kind of spaces. Because I think in our society, we do a lot of absorbing culture, right? We watch a lot of things, we listen to a lot of things. We go to, maybe concerts. We might sing along a little bit, but, but really having this practice of doing this collectively and learning to again, lift our voices together, I think we found is just immensely transformative, and it hope it can shape the whole tone of that space, right? Like when we do music in a protest, you know, you you control if it's done well, right? Whether Do you want that to be this, like high energy, like we need to kind of move moment, or do we need to actually, kind of collectively, be able to sit with the like, deep despair and death that is happening, like, we have to know what kind of tone we're setting. And I think music and and kind of the messages through the visual arts as well, like, really help encapsulate that and bring people into a space and and see it in a different way. We're not just hearing people tell us about it, right? We're, participating in

Joshua Johnson: 44:00

it. I mean, I love that. I mean even taking it into scripture, and Ephesians, as Paul is talking about singing, He's instructing us as a community to sing together, to bring a psalm, a hymn, spiritual songs. And as we're doing that in community that brings us together, that says, hey, now we have one heart moving in a specific direction. It's just Yeah, it is. It's key for both of you, Liz and Sharon, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would

Liz Theoharis: 44:35

you give? I love this. So when I was 21 I had already been introduced to the National Union of the homeless and the national welfare rights union to grassroots anti poverty movements and networks like my life was transformed, right? And so I think because I was kind of welcomed in to this, like, really diverse geographic, racial, age, income level, movement of folks, and I started to be able to see that I had the power, not alone but in community, to make the world in the image of kind of love and abundance and truth. And so I think what I would say to 21 year olds, and to my 21 year old self is like, find communities that are like you and nothing like you, immerse yourself there and then in that work like you'll find yourself and your voice and you can, you can really like both be held and help to to hold the world in, in a in a way that like things can, don't have to be this way, and that we can, we can live in a world that is so much more just and beautiful and true than than how things are, and to hold on to that.

Charon Hribar: 45:57

Yeah, and my 21 year old self was living in South Carolina for a moment when the Iraq war was starting, and I was protesting the Iraq war in South Carolina, which was a little interesting, as you can imagine. And I think to my 21 year old self again, I think it's similar. To Liz, though, is, you know, I knew that I needed to say something and that something was not right, and I found a small group of people. But I think to my 20 year old self, I would say, know that there are many more people that are out there that are doing this work, and that have been doing it for many, many years, for centuries, and for movements beyond and to note, to say, you know that I wasn't alone, that you're not alone, and that you know it's a long struggle. It's a long haul, as Miles Horton like to say, and and so each each moment and each you know, step is important, and find more and more of us that are out there doing

Joshua Johnson: 47:01

this work. For both of you, anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend

Liz Theoharis: 47:06

I only are all talking about and or,

Joshua Johnson: 47:10

Yes, love it. I just rewatched season one. Finished the season finale of Season One last night. And so, yeah, I'm right about

Charon Hribar: 47:19

to finish the season finale of season

Liz Theoharis: 47:22

one campaign of harassment, because it was like, wait, you haven't watched this amazing thing and you're doing social justice organizing. Like, like, come on, yeah, I feel like I'm obsessed with that

Joshua Johnson: 47:35

nice and or great, great recommendation. Yeah. Is there anything else? Sharon,

Charon Hribar: 47:42

no, I was, I was laughing though, because I was like, Yes. And I was like, I realized there's not a lot of singing in that movie. Now, that's true, but, you know, I still, I'm loving it.

Joshua Johnson: 47:54

Well, yeah, there's the finale. Has some music. Has some music. So that's good. We pray freedom is available anywhere books are sold. You go and get those and join in solidarity with the poor. Have prayers, rituals and liturgies, so that we can actually see some movement, a social movement for change and justice for beauty and good, so that all people can be lifted up, given dignity and worth, because we're all human, made in the image of God, and we're all worthy of love and be out of poverty in all ways. And so there's more than enough. There's more than enough in this world. We don't need to have a scarcity mindset, and we don't have to hoard things because we think things are going to go away. There's more than enough for everybody. Anywhere else that you would like to point people to, how can they connect with what you're doing and where? What's what are the best places for that.

Charon Hribar: 49:00

Yeah, I think, you know, definitely follow the Kairos Center. We're on Instagram and Tiktok and Facebook and blue sky and LinkedIn, and as well as the Kairos website is a really great resource. We're always, you know, putting resources and information there. And as I mentioned, we will have we pray freedom.org by September 1 for the launch of the book, and we'll be able to also keep continuing to add resources and connect folks there. Liz, anywhere else you would point folks,

Liz Theoharis: 49:33

if folks are interested in joining us for the freedom Church of the poor, we meet on Wednesday evenings for bible study at 6pm Eastern Time, and Sunday evenings for kind of worship and community at 6pm Eastern Time. And you can, you can kind of sign up for the freedom Church of the poor, like E News through the Kairos Center's website. But we would love if people want to come and join us virtually. We also stream them, but really want to invite people in to hang out with us in the Zoom Room. It's just like a really diverse group of folks, people of faith, people not of faith, people from different trades, traditions, folks that are all in struggle on the front lines of struggle these days, in August, we'll be celebrating for the third year in a row, Black August. If folks are interested in, in, you know, in coming and taking part, please, please join us. And then we're, we're out in the world, organizing and, you know, trying to transform society so that everyone is in and nobody's out. So no matter where people are located, there are folks that are connected to this work there. And if people want to reach out to us, find out who. Please, please do

Joshua Johnson: 51:01

Excellent. Well, Liz and Sharon, thank you for this conversation. Thank you the people like you give me hope for the world, and I know that there are a lot more people like you that want to see this work happen. And so thank you for collecting these rituals and these stories. I. Of these prayers for people as they're going to walk and organize for a more just and beautiful world. It's a fantastic conversation. I really love talking to both of you. So thank you so much. Do

Charon Hribar: 51:30

you mind if I close us out in this song? Joshua, Oh, I love it. Let's do it. Great. Yeah, I was just thinking about the song. It comes out of the anti apartheid movement in South Africa, and it's a song that has been used in many spaces. It was originally used to learn the names of political prisoners and to say you're not alone. And so I was just thinking about that theme that we've raised and maybe some listeners are feeling alone in this moment as so much is going on, but knowing that actually, when we come together in this kind of way, that we are singing each other home to a different world. And so with that, I'll just sing a verse of this song. It says, courage,

Unknown: 52:16

my friend, you do not walk alone, we will walk with you and sing your Spirit home.

Joshua Johnson: 52:46

Beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you. You

Unknown: 52:59

you.