Shifting Culture
Shifting Culture invites you into transformative conversations at the intersection of faith, culture, justice, and the way of Jesus. Each episode, host Joshua Johnson engages guests who challenge conventional thinking and inspire fresh perspectives for embodying faith in today's complex world. If you're curious about how cultural shifts impact your faith journey and passionate about living purposefully, join us as we explore deeper ways to follow Jesus in everyday life.
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Shifting Culture
Ep. 341 John Fugelsang - Separation of Church and Hate
On Shifting Culture, we often ask: what does it mean to follow Jesus in the complexity of our world? In this episode, John Fugelsang helps us press into that question with clarity and urgency. John is a comedian, actor, and political commentator shaped by the unlikely pairing of parents who were once a nun and a Franciscan brother. His new book, Separation of Church and Hate, takes an unflinching look at how fundamentalism and nationalism have twisted Christianity into a pursuit of power. With sharp wit and thoughtful insight, John contrasts that distortion with the radical humility and compassion of Jesus - the one who welcomed the stranger, lifted up women, broke cycles of violence, and modeled a way beyond empire. This conversation is provocative and grounding, inviting us to imagine how the way of Jesus might still break the cycles of fear and hate in our time.
John Fugelsang has been killed on CSI, picketed by Westboro Baptist Church, and hosts the acclaimed series "Tell Me Everything" on SiriusXM #127. He's been a regular on CNN, MSNBC & FOX News, appears in Coyote Ugly, hosted America’s Funniest Home Videos once got George Harrison to give his final performance on VH1. He's the child of an ex-nun and an ex-Franciscan brother, and his book SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND HATE: A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists and Flock Fleecing Frauds releases from Simon & Schuster in Summer 2025.
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I like to say spiritual people use religion to become better people than they were. Fundamentalists use religion to argue they're better people than you you
Joshua Johnson:Joshua, hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, on shifting culture, we're always asking, What does it mean to follow Jesus in the complexity of our world. What does it look like to move past slogans and power struggles into something deeper, something that actually resembles the way of Christ? That's the space John people saying pushes us into today. John is a comedian, an actor and a political commentator, raised by a mother who is a former nun, a father who is a former Franciscan brother, and out of that unlikely beginning, he's carried a deep concern for how faith is lived and how it's distorted. His new book, separation of church and hate traces the ways fundamentalism and nationalism have twisted Christianity into a pursuit of power. But he doesn't just leave us in critique. He brings us back again and again to the Jesus who welcomed the stranger, lifted up women, called for non violence and modeled humility. This conversation is sharp. Yes, you might not be used to the cutting that's about to happen, but stay with us and listen to someone who is trying to point us back to what matters most, and invite us to imagine how the way of Jesus might still break the cycles of violence and hate we're caught in today. So join us. Here is my conversation with John Fuglsang, John, welcome to shifting culture. This is gonna be a great conversation. I'm excited to dive straight in Right on. Thank you this book separation of church and hate that you have coming out, I think is fantastic. You're helping people realize that there is a Christ Christianity, and a Christ less Christianity that is out there. And one of the things that is happening is most people think that there is a Christless Christianity, like Christianity is something different. What is fundamentalism for you, and how have fundamentalists hijacked Christianity?
John Fugelsang:Oh, man, let's go. Let's open with the light stuff. I mean, you know, they like to say the largest growing religious demographic in America are Mormons. Some will say it's Islam. Lately, they say it's, it's nones, it's none of the above. I think the largest growing religious group in America are people who used to consider themselves religious and now consider themselves spiritual because they are turned off not by Jesus, not by God, not by the Bible, not by Santa Claus. They're turned off by the cruelties and hypocrisies of these pious men, often in dresses and funny hats, and that's the atheism factory. Fundamentalism is what's driving young people away from religion. It's not God, it's not Jesus, and it's not Satan, although Satan might be guiding the fundamentalists, I like to say spiritual people use religion to become better people than they were. Fundamentalists use religion to argue they're better people than you, and they are the ones who are the core Ultra conservatives of every religion, the most Orthodox, the most extreme right, the ones who are absolutely certain that they and only they speak for the one and only true God, and anyone who opposes me obviously represents Satan, because I'm on the side of God. So fundamentalists, you know, we're not going to sit down with Satan and negotiate school curriculum, negotiate who gets to get married. You're on the side of Satan. And what we have to remember is when people say, when our atheist friends say, oh, religion's responsible for all of the oppression of women and violence and homophobia, and I gotta say, No, it's not religion. It's the fundamentalist Wings of all the great fundamentalist Islam, fundamentalist Judaism, fundamentalist Christianity, have more in common with each other than they do with liberal or moderate Judaism or Christianity. And I say there's five traits Joshua that all that all fundamentalists carry, of doesn't matter their religion. If you're a fundamentalist Muslim, Hindu, women are always second class citizens. The more conservative your religious group is, the more God just likes men better. Oh, it's God's will. Secondly, is that violence is okay if my side does it, because I'm on the one side of God, sex is bad, except for procreation. If women and gay people like it, focus on punishment more than healing for all fundamentalists of all religions. And finally, there's always. Penchant of for victimhood among fundamentalists that they use to justify any cruelties they do. It's the victim bully mindset. Well, someone did it to me, so I get to do it to others. And the overwhelming majority of Christians, Jews and Muslims around the world are getting along just fine right now in businesses and schools and families, but it's the fundamentalists of all the great religions that are ruining the great religions and keep getting all the media attention.
Joshua Johnson:You know, I lived in the Middle East for five years, spent a lot of time with Muslims sitting in their living rooms, and Arab Muslims are the most hospitable people on the planet. They're so kind and loving. But it is the fundamentalist arm I spoke to a Palestinian Christian talking about how their forefathers lived in that area before 1948 of how Muslims and Jews and Christians all lived together, got along, celebrated with each other, celebrated each other's holidays, and supported one another until fundamentalists come along and try to get
John Fugelsang:power. I mean, if the liberal Jews and Palestinians were in charge, you would not see this kind of conflict. The Netanyahu regime and the Hamas regime are mirror images. They prop each other up. They're extreme conservative. They've decided that violence against civilians is okay. Both sides have decided that, because God, I'm on God's side, I can do this, and both sides betray their fates. And you know, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. I mean, he 2019 he needs them because he needs a bad guy. So they're all wartime consigliere is the liberal Muslims and Jews would be insufferable trying non stop to bring peace. I think all negotiation should be done by Palestinians and Israelis under the age of 45 because they're the ones who are going to have to live with this peace one day. And I've lost faith in older generations to settle this.
Joshua Johnson:There may be a different way. There's a way that we've done things for years and years, but there may be something different. Maybe we could try something. But what I want to know is, how did Christians decide that they wanted somebody to follow? They've started to follow Jesus, who is anti empire, living in the empire, but choosing a different way, and then deciding with Constantine, deciding to say we're going to align with Empire, and for so many years that we've aligned with Empire. Now it seems like there's Christians that want power. Yes, this is the thing that they want, is power, worldly power, and not following the ways of Jesus. How? How did a Christianity that followed anti empire and laying down their lives, for the least of these become a meshed with an empire.
John Fugelsang:I mean, you just nailed it. You know it was it was Rome. This is what my book is largely about, and how marginalized religious sect that was so persecuted became an imperial religion that got to persecute smaller sects. How did the bullied faith go to being the bullying empire. And obviously, you know, Paul comes in the middle of all of this. Jesus dies. There's different ministries trying to keep his movement going, but all of his apostles were getting bumped off by Paul's friends. Paul, being a Roman citizen and a Pharisee, had a lot more freedom to travel throughout the Roman Empire than the apostles did while all they were all getting murdered by Paul's old buddies, so Paul could travel all through the Holy Land and reach out to the Gentiles. He was a born again kid with a dream, and he had a great sales pitch. It's like Judaism, but you can eat all the bacon you want and keep your foreskin. And it was an incredible, incredible rate of conversion. And within 200 years, the Empire that murdered Jesus took over his operation, and once they did it, the simple teachings of the homeless Jewish faith healer carpenter who wants you to love your enemies, those are out the window, and they're replaced by hierarchies and dogma and cathedrals and rankings and guilt and shame. And then come the Crusades, when they start first having this image of the warrior Christ that has nothing to do with the Christ of the Bible, but this is the warrior Christ. And then, you know, this led to the crusades, and that's the history. Then you get the Doctrine of Discovery, where more men in funny hats are saying, well, now it's okay to go rape foreign lands if you forcibly convert their residents to Christianity, which is what rationalized the age of discovery. It's that we're going to murder these people and enslave them, and we're going to take their resources, but we'll save them. We'll force them to convert to our religion, and then it'll be okay that we're abusing them and raping them and stealing from them, and as we well know, and as slavery and the Indians proved being saved didn't save anybody, and it's all power. And that's what my book is all about, separation of church and hate. It's all about how all of these disparate Maga Christians and nationalists and fundamentalists, their true creed is power, they don't care about. Teachings of Christ. They don't really care about abortion, not the ones in power. I mean, the people care about abortion, but if Republicans cared about abortion, you'd see sex ed. You'd see more free access to birth control. They try to reduce unwanted they don't care. They don't care about illegal immigration. If they wanted it to stop, they would start locking up the white people who do all the hiring and put up the help wanted sign at our border, they don't care. They care about power. And if abusing Muslims gets me there this year, if abusing gay marriage, if abusing feminism gets me, if it's abortion this year and and hating the Christian refugees that we are groomed to call illegals next year, it doesn't matter. It's all about power for them. But I want to say there's a flip side to all of this. And you nailed it, Joshua, in your introduction. There's two groups. There's the Christians, and there's the Jesus followers. And throughout history, when the Christians have gone too far, it's always been the Jesus followers, and they're allies of other faiths, and their allies who are atheist and agnostic, who've had to push back against the bat shit Christians. So the Crusades, right? But St Francis quits the Crusades. Campaigns against war. You've got Columbus, and they're enslaving the people. The first act of protest by a white person in this hemisphere was the Catholic priest Columbus brought over Bartolomeo de las casas, who wrote to the Queen to protest the way we were treating the indigenous folks because it wasn't normal. People knew it was wrong. Back then, slavery was propped up by Christianity, and it was Jesus followers like Frederick Douglass and the Quakers and Harriet Tubman who pushed back segregation, propped up by Christianity and a Baptist minister named Martin Luther King and his allies, including Jews and atheists, pushed back homophobia, propped up by Christianity. Jesus followers said, Wait a second. None of this bigotry towards gay people aligns with Christ. Go through it all throughout the whole history of the faith, it's been Christians who just want power doing all the unchrist like things, and it's always the Jesus followers who aren't always all Christian, who've always pushed back.
Joshua Johnson:How did you reconcile some of this growing up, the faith that you inherited from your parents. I know that your parents talks a lot about following the ways of Jesus, like going towards the marginalized, caring for the least of these and then what made you actually see a difference in the church trying to go after power, or Christianity trying to go after power. What happened in your own story where you were saying, oh, there's maybe something different here?
John Fugelsang:Well, yeah, but I have an abnormally religious upbringing. My mother was a nun. Went into the convent right out of high school. They put her through nursing school. She worked in Africa with lepers, and was in the convent for 16 years. My dad was a Franciscan brother who taught history to Catholic boys in Brooklyn and the Brooklyn Franciscan fell in love with the southern couldn't say anything. Carried a torch for many years, but they were both steeped in the humility of Christ. Obviously, the nuns and I came to believe that my mother's order kind of groomed women to confuse humility with self loathing. But my father came from the Franciscans, which is all about a culture of service, and that's all Jesus is. He modeled servant leadership. The guy who is washing the feet of poor people is not the guy who cares about total right wing domination of your local school board. It's a movement of humility and grace and looking out for the least of these. But growing up, I began to notice that my culture had a very different definition of Christianity. My dad was a social studies teacher. The news was always on, and this is in the 80s. I'm growing up, and I'm seeing the falwells and the Pat Robertsons and the swaggarts on the news, introduced as Christian leaders, but they didn't talk about anything Jesus talked. They didn't talk about poverty, didn't talk about welcoming the stranger. They didn't talk about the evils of racism. These guys actually talked about the evils of these protests against racism. And it was very confusing for me, and as I got older, it got more and more confusing. By the time it's the 1990s if you were a young person and said you're Christian, most people would assume, Oh, you hate gay people and you think women should go to jail for ending pregnancies like And back then, being a conservative Christian wasn't synonymous with despising immigrants. Ronald Reagan and George Bush ran against each other in 1980 both competing to see who could do more to help the undocumented. Because it was good to get power back then. Now it's good to get power by despising these people and smearing them and calling them illegals, when in reality, asylum seekers can't be illegal. If you're on American soil, you can claim asylum. There's no illegal part, and crossing the border is a misdemeanor. I don't know any other misdemeanors that can have your kids stolen from you, but they cross the border because there's a help wanted sign that Donald Trump and his friends put up. Donald Trump's the only president to have hired undocumented workers in two different centuries. Our economy is propped up by this exploited, brown labor force, and it always has been. They're not going after the agricultural workers because Donald Trump knows prices would go up, so they're actually letting some of. Them stay. They're giving lie to the fact that this whole thing is a racist scam. They'll never go after the guys who own the meat packing plant. They'll just arrest all the guys working in the meat packing plant. And that's the system we've grown up in. And for me, as I got older, I began to recognize, no, I'm not weird. My parents actually were following the Jesus parts of it. I mean, they were sexually uptight. That's a whole other story, which Jesus wasn't but, I mean, so we've all been groomed to think that this meanness, this pious meanness, is Christianity. I mean, we've been groomed to believe it. Two generations have been raised to think that criminalizing abortion and being mean to gay people has something to do with the ministry of Jesus, and so that sort of became my mission as I got older, and as I got further away from the organized religion of the Catholic Church, I got deeper and deeper into theology and Scripture. And as a comedian, my managers and agents hated it, but I love talking about this stuff. And as a TV and radio host, I've always wanted to have theolog I debated Bill Donohue of the Catholic League. I debated Jerry Falwell senior. I got to debate David Duke on Bill Maher's show. And I just got tired of seeing my parents faith used as a cover for meanness. These people don't follow Jesus. They use him as a prop. I have Trump supporters call my show all the time. Trump Christians, right? And they get furious because I won't call them illegals. They're Christian refugees. Your viewers should do that with your racist uncle. They'll love it. But I say, give me a teaching of Christ that this Maga movement is fought for. Number one thing, they'll say, abortion. I gotta say Christ didn't mention abortion. God didn't have any of the prophets. Moses never comes up. Which Christ was against the death penalty. But y'all differ with him on that, right? So the second thing they'll say most often is a strong border. And I gotta say, the only commandment in the entire Bible about immigration or borders is the commandment to welcome the stranger, and God does it all over the Hebrew Scriptures will not let us mistreat them. We must treat them as our own. Christ goes farther in Matthew 25 and says, individuals and nations will be judged heaven or hell by how they welcome the strangers. So why should I listen to Donald Trump and reject God and Jesus? And the third most common thing I get Joshua from the our hardcore mega Christians is, well, he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, and I'm like, Well, I hate to tell you, but Christ in the Bible never mentions the United States or our embassy in the year 33 ad, they haven't read the Bible, and your listeners know this. It's a prop to prove they're better than you. So I say, you know, if you're dealing with the right wing, nine times out of 10, whether you're a believer or not, Jesus is probably on your side.
Joshua Johnson:I know what you use. I think you use some satire, some comedy to help, you know, unveil what's going on. To see something there. I think you know some people, if they use arguments or call people names, it's not really going to work, correct? If I'm not a comedian like you, if my tongue is not as sharp as yours in satire, what can the average person do to stand up to actually show that there is a different way? Yeah, a way to stand up against the Empire, or way to stand up against people who are trying to take Christianity away from us.
John Fugelsang:Yeah, again, that's why I wrote this book. I wanted to take every issue that divides us, from feminism to abortion rights, LGBTQ rights, healthcare, poverty, guns, sexuality. I wanted to take every issue that divides us and show the top right wing arguments to justify meanness, and then show how the Jesus argument is usually the opposite of the right wing. Now, with comedy and satire, I can be quite lacerating, but one of the things I've grown to understand is that I don't want to be mean to people who are just led astray. I try to make my targets either people in power or mean people. I try very hard to I'm not allowed to hate anybody because I'm not good enough to hate anyone, but I try to go after the meanness, not after people who have been suckered by the meanness. I don't really think you can convert Maga people into the light. You can try. Lord knows, we've seen so many progressives coax a lot of conservative loved ones out of homophobia. In the last 25 years, we've seen it. We've become a kinder society in many ways. If you told me in the 90s we'd have gay marriage and a black president, we'd stop putting people in jail for cannabis, I wouldn't have believed the human race could get that kind in 30 years. So I have a lot of faith in us, but I find when you're dealing with these people and you're not going to rely on quick one liners, sincerity. Don't be afraid. Refuse to hate them no matter how mean they are to you. And know the Scripture go in knowing where Jesus comes down on the argument. And that's why I wrote this book, to be about all these issues and what the right says about everything and why they're wrong, but we can't hate them back. Back right? I don't really think you can necessarily convert anyone, but my biggest piece of advice would be try to avoid debating these right wing Christians in a vacuum. Try, if you can, to debate them around other people at the cookout or in social media in public, because you get to model kindness. You get to model listening. You get to model turning the other cheek. Sometime you get to model not hating, right? You can be funny if you want. You don't have to try, but you have to be sincere. You have to know your points. You have to know what Jesus said versus what your opponent claims. Let them be the hateful ones. Let them be the ignorant ones. Your job is to be the relaxed person in the room who knows their and can quote Scripture. And again, you might not convert them, but I found something really interesting. Very often they'll appreciate you took the time to rather than just say, Oh, you right wing racist, but you came to meet them on their own terms and discuss scripture. And that can build a bridge even if you don't agree. I also think you can just ask them to acknowledge your points. So even if they don't agree, they'll have to acknowledge they heard you, and the points will be in their brain, which which helps a lot. But I think what's most important is to know that even if you can't reach them, you can reach their wives, you can reach their kids, you can reach the other people at the cookout who are listening. Because you're going to model sincerity, you're going to model respect, love, if possible, and you're going to model knowing what the hell is in the damn Bible, rather than just assuming that because I put up a Christmas tree in my house once a year, God likes me better than Muslims.
Joshua Johnson:So I want to actually then get into some of the stuff that you get into in the book, and one is going to be around violence. And I actually think that our militarism in America is so anti Jesus. And it's not just right wing, it's also left wing. We're warmongers in the United States. It's just
John Fugelsang:who's the left wing? Who's a left wing warmonger, who's a left wing warmonger? There are
Joshua Johnson:Democrats. Didn't want peace. All the time. Oh, all the time.
John Fugelsang:I thought we were left wingers. You're talking about Democrats. Yes, Democrats are fine with it, but, but then also, it's like the lines are so blurred now, because, you know, like, it's one, okay, Ukraine, they're our ally. We signed a treaty in 1994 that we protect them. If Russia invaded, we're, you know, I mean, I know Americans love breaking treaties, ask an Indian, but Palestine is something completely different, right? I mean, it's like, you know, war and carnage and violence is not one side fits all, but I'm with you on the militarism and and I trace it all back to the Crusades. And, yeah, it's, it's an insult to Jesus, and I go deep on it in the book.
Joshua Johnson:So go a little deep and tell us why you think that Jesus followers maybe should model a different way. Maybe there is a different way than militarism
John Fugelsang:look a Jesus follower. Or you can be a guy into fighting and violence. You can't be both. Okay. You either believe turn the other cheek or you don't. When Jesus comes up and says, turn the other cheek, when he tells people to pray for your oppressors, he's saying this to a group of Jews who are occupied by European military, and he's telling them to bless their oppressors. You want to talk about a tough room these people wanted the year. How are we going to drive these Romans out of our land? And Jesus is saying, love them and forgive them, like he's talking about not getting even and not wreaking revenge on evil rat bastards who desperately deserve it. He's talking about breaking the cycle of violence. It's not about you winning over the other guy. It's about you win if you're the side to break the back and forth of the violence that's his entire the last words out of his mouth before he dies after he is executed and murdered by the Romans, is begging God to forgive the people who murdered tortured and humiliated him. He was not into retaliation or revenge in any way. Now, the big argument you'll get, and I go deep on this, I'll try to really quick, is in Luke, Luke 22 where Jesus says, sell your cloak and buy a sword. And that's the quote the gun does use. Sell your cloak. Jesus, excuse me, Mr. Liberal. Jesus said, Sell your cloak and buy a sword. And an AR 15 is the modern sword, sir. And they love it, right? They love having civilians getting access to machines designed to kill lots of civilians really fast that have no civilian use, but they love it, because Jesus said, Sell your cloak and buy a sword in Luke 22 so when you read Luke 22 and see what the story is really about, it's the night Jesus is being arrested, and he's talking about how they have to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah that they were numbered among the transgressors. You know this. So he says, sell your cloak and buy a sword, because we have to be criminals for the prophecy to come true, we got to be armed. And right away, the apostles Jesus, we have two swords. Jesus says, oh, that's enough. Okay. And so they carry on. Have their night. No one goes out to buy swords late night at the Jerusalem Walmart. And then when the Romans, I'm sorry, when the temple guards show up to arrest him and his friends want to use their swords in Matthew, Jesus says he. Lives by the sword, will die by the sword. So Jesus doesn't come out against swords. He comes out against using them, and he comes out against self defense. But from that, they took one line, sell your cloak and buy a sword. And the only way you can do that is if you ignore the rest of Luke 22 and if you ignore the rest of Matthew Mark, Luke and John, because Jesus was not a guy who was about armed resistance or violence as self defense. So just as they ignore the well regulated militia part of the Second Amendment, they will ignore all of Luke 22 just to pick one sentence and say, This is why mentally unstable 20 somethings need machine guns. You just
Joshua Johnson:talked about cycles of violence and Jesus breaking through the cycles of violence. I think this is what has been tried with nonviolence, resistance over them and achieved and achieved violence cannot stand nonviolence. It just can't. And it is, it is crazy to me that they hate it.
John Fugelsang:They can kill a lot of you. They can kill a lot of violent protesters, no doubt. But can you imagine if Gandhi lived in a time when everybody in India had a video camera in their pocket and could film human rights abuses? He would have gotten the British out of there 10 years sooner. This is why I keep saying Palestine, the next Gandhi is going to come from Israel or Palestine, and they're going to do it with video cameras, because I think you can't get away with that kind of brutality on the world stage anymore. And John Lennon said it fascists, if you're violent with them, they know how to crush you. The only things fascist can't handle are humor and non violence.
Joshua Johnson:Don't know if people really realize how revolutionary and radical Jesus really was,
John Fugelsang:they don't, and we're not taught that the Conservatives took over this radicals operation. That was Paul. We had this incredible, revolutionary rock star, and his whole operation was taken over by this deeply conservative, uptight, closeted, most likely conservative dude.
Joshua Johnson:Just even take the Jesus's treatment of women, of how Jesus totally went against the culture, treated women with dignity, respect, brought him into the fold as disciples that they were learning from him. You know, especially we're looking at something like Doug Wilson was just profiled in CNN and his movement. Basically, it was like, hey, only heads of households are going to be able to vote. We don't want
John Fugelsang:women to vote. Women. They like the Old Testament, and they like Paul, they don't like what comes in between.
Joshua Johnson:And So let them know, what did Jesus say? Who is he? What did he do for
John Fugelsang:women? I mean, the greatest feminists in the Bible. And before I even begin, let me just say that Jews are so far ahead of Christians on feminism at this point, we're a younger religion. We're catching up. But you know, our Hebrew friends had a female prime minister in Israel way before America elected a female president in 2016 who wasn't allowed to have the job. But we did pick one. We did a popular vote. So having said that, Jesus grew up in a very conservative time where women were property and women were, I say in the book, women fell into two categories, property or icky, because they could be owned. They had virtually no inheritance rights and menstruation, ooh, gross. Not part of God's plan. You're ritually unclean when that happens. And if you have a baby girl, you're ritually unclean for twice as long. They found so many ways to punish women for their biology and to make the menstrual blood that gives all of us life into an unholy, dirty thing. So Jesus is born into this world where women aren't allowed to work, where women are property, where divorces, I'm tired of you get out and if you didn't have a family to go live in it was either prostitution or begging. Okay? It was, it was the gospel. According to Ike Turner, women could not legally attend school or be educated. Jesus is the biggest feminist in the Bible, and he breaks down all these taboos, and they don't teach this to us as kids. So there were three women that went everywhere with Jesus and the 12, Mary Magdalene, Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus. They were there. Jesus showed up to them when he came back first. But the men who wrote the Bible said, Oh no, no, no, no. 12 Apostles, three groupies, because women aren't counted as people. When you read Jesus spoke to 500 people, it means he spoke to 500 men. Women weren't counted. Yes, Jesus had female apostles who deserved to be in the last supper, and Scorsese put him in there. By the way, in his movie, the famous story of the apostles come over for dinner at Mary and Martha's house, and Martha's cleaning and Mary's learning, and Martha's all mad and frustrated, and Jesus tells Martha to chill out. As a kid, I was like, I felt bad for Martha. She was doing all the work for these people. It's like my mom, but when you realize what was happening was Martha was trying to care of these people, and she was mad because Mary was breaking the law in the next room to be educated, and Jesus was breaking the law to educate a woman, and she sat at his feet, which meant she was the top pupil of the rabbi. So what Jesus says when he. Tells Martha to chill out. He's not scolding her for caring. He's saying to her, your stress isn't helping, but he's saying education matters more for women than housework and cleaning and cooking. That's what he's saying. And so they teach us that story when we're too young to appreciate what it means. The bleeding woman Sam Cooke wrote the great song, touched the hem of His garment, bleeding 12 years one could fix her. She was ritually unclean because icky, right? See, here's Jesus. Is there. She walks into the crowd, touches the hem of His garment, and it goes away, and she's better. Great story. She was breaking so many laws by going out in public. She made everyone in that crowd ritually impure by going into the crowd, she endangered the souls of everyone around her because she was dirty and menstruating, and when she touched Jesus, she made Jesus ritually impure in the eyes of God, according to their religion, Jesus turns around and he says, Daughter, your faith has healed you. It's the only time in Jesus's career he calls anybody daughter, and he says it to a ritually unclean woman who just broke all the laws of the religion to make him unclean. She violates the taboo, and Jesus breaks it for good. I can't believe these right wingers pretend they follow this guy. The whole gospel is, as you know, is filled with examples of Jesus breaking down this appalling treatment of women, and then Paul rolls in with his hang ups and starts it all up again. But even Paul, I'm sorry, even Paul, Paul had Phoebe was a deacon like you, realize Paul was writing different letters to different churches who have different propaganda. So in some he'll be all anti women, and then some, he'll talk about the women who saved his life and were a core part of the ministry. Again, like today, they'll use bigotry when it serves
Joshua Johnson:them. There were apostles, women apostles there in, you know, the end of Romans Junior was there female, you know, house church leaders, like all sorts of different things that were pretty amazing that women were doing. I have a lot of listeners that want to figure out how to embody Jesus and be faithful in this world and look more like him and not follow the ways of the world or the ways of people pretending to be like Jesus.
John Fugelsang:Oh yes, my favorite. 1996
Joshua Johnson:there's Disney decided to bring out the Hunchback of Notre Dame, this little musical, which for Disney to come out with this, I think is absolutely crazy.
John Fugelsang:It's a heavy, heavy movie, and it's based a lot on the Charles Laughton version, which is the most emotionally devastating version of that story.
Joshua Johnson:It is emotionally devastating. I had my eight year old come back. We just went to Notre Dame in Paris, so we came home and I was like, Hey, let's watch this.
John Fugelsang:Hellfire. Hellfire. But it reminded my favorite Disney song is hellfire.
Joshua Johnson:But it reminded me of today. It reminded me right now, of people that are in charge, that are authoritarian, but are using scripture and using the name of God to commit atrocities with others. This guy is like, Hey, I'm just gonna throw, like, kill this woman, and I'm gonna throw this baby into a well and kill this baby, because it's monstrous looking. I mean, look,
John Fugelsang:we just saw a guy in Minnesota murder two Democrats and try to murder two more over Christian issues. I mean, this is terrorism. This is what we see with Netanyahu. It's what we see with Hamas. If God wanted someone dead, he'd smite them himself. You're not helping Jehovah here, Allah didn't ask you to do this.
Joshua Johnson:My question is, is that possible? I mean, Hunchback of Notre Dame, that was many years ago. Victor Hugo wrote, you know the story as well, like he's calling out the same things that are happening today with right wing fundamentalism. Oh yeah, look at Les Miserables still happening Les Mis. Look at Les Mis. Yeah, exactly.
John Fugelsang:Victor Hugo was a deeply spiritual guy. He didn't get everything right, but he he got it. And Les Mis is, I mean, how can you be Donald Trump and watch that and not understand the link between Christianity and fighting poverty. I mean, it's literally what the whole thing's about. And, you know? I mean, the whole thing is about a guy who steals a loaf of bread to feed his sister's child, and law enforcement persecutes him for 40 years because he's a criminal and sinner, and along the way, who saves his life, the priest recognizes that sin and evil aren't the same thing. So all of that bleeds in, and it's the good Christian people who are terrified of Quasimodo who's the most Christian character in the whole, in the whole, in the whole novel
Joshua Johnson:I love after you know, Les Mis was at the Kennedy Center. Trump was asked, Who do you resonate more with? Is Javert or Jean Valjean? And he figured it out. He was like, I don't know. What do you think Melania, he couldn't figure out who he resonated more with. And I think I know who resonated more with.
John Fugelsang:Well, look, maybe he saw it on stage. You know, Javert. Javert is often better on stage. You know what I mean? Like in the movie, Russell Crowe couldn't quite I think should have switched roles with Hugh Jackman. But, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I, you know, hunchback is a great I mean, I can't imagine Disney making that film today. Can you it seems like their most, the most literary thing they've done in the last 30 years?
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, it's crazy, but it was beautiful. And I think you know, for me to say, hey, you know this is happening in our world today, even to show my eight year old like, hey, there is a different way that we could live, and that looks like Jesus. And I think, you know, you write about immigrants, refugees here in your book as well, and I think this is something that really bothers me as just treatment of immigrants in this country at the moment, and what's happening the way that people are deported. Alligator Alcatraz, all of this is very disturbing to me and people using scripture, yeah, to justify what they're doing.
John Fugelsang:Not Jesus, though, not Jesus. They can't use Jesus, right? No, they can't. No, Jesus commands you to welcome the stranger. So these are the anything but Jesus. Christians and their whole life is about finding loopholes to his inconveniently liberal, woke commandments.
Joshua Johnson:So, so what did Jesus do? How did he show us that the foreigner is welcome, that we need to actually treat the foreigner
John Fugelsang:well. I mean, Matthew 25 he comes out the night he's arrested, and he says, you know, the night of the Last Supper. And you know, Matthew 25 is Jesus giving his marching orders. I was a stranger, and you fed me. You know, I was hungry, and you fed me. I mean, Jesus comes out and says, Look, man, when the world comes to an end, I'm going to gather the individuals and nations. It's called both the parable of the sheep and goats, but it's also called the judgment of nations. And Jesus says, I will gather all the individuals, all the nations. And he says he's going to judge them. And he gives them four criteria, take care of the poor, take care of the sick, be kind to prisoners, welcome the stranger, and that's it. Jesus tells us, point blank, directly, individuals and nations will be judged based on not how much they scream at women outside clinics, not how much they persecute illegals, not how mean they are to transgender children, not how much they hate liberals and Europeans and feminists, we'll all be judged by how kind we are, immigrants, criminals and jail, sick people, poor People. That's it. So anything you got beyond that isn't Christian, it's maybe you're going around him. Now they'll go all the time with Paul, right? What's the verse they always use with Paul? Submit to the governing authorities. Romans, 13. Okay, submit to God. I noticed for eight years of Obama and four years of Biden, these folks didn't believe in submitting to the God. But this is what your listeners will hear. They cross the border, it's illegal. Well, y'all support Trump, so don't ask me to believe you take our laws all that seriously. First off, but again, every time a Democrat's in office, they forget about this one. Submit to the governing authorities. This was Paul writing to Romans, okay, but Jesus challenges authority consistently. It's what gets him killed. Were Mary and Joseph submitting to government authorities when they ran away and hid in Egypt to save their child's life. Jesus, the whole thing is questioning authority and standing up to authority. And if you're saying that we have to follow the laws to persecute poor brown people, but you're indifferent to the law breaking of this rich, orange person, I don't have to take your Christianity seriously. What did Jesus say about it? And these are the anything but Jesus Christians,
Joshua Johnson:I love that you're bringing things back to Jesus and you're helping people. It doesn't matter. Like, yeah, just bring it back to Jesus to say that Christianity should be about Jesus. Well, make
John Fugelsang:them debate. Don't let them argue with you. Make them argue with Jesus. Make them argue with God. Make them argue with Scripture. God commands us to never mistreat the Alien and treat them as our own. Explain why God is wrong and Stephen Miller is right, make them fight this book. They wave around as a prop because they don't follow it. They use it for
Joshua Johnson:power. What are the biggest arguments that people call in about mega Christians into your show? What are the biggest arguments they call in about what are they really arguing for?
John Fugelsang:Well, I mean, there's the mega people just arguing for Trump, and they say they're Christian, and they say they're Christian, and they can't make a Christ based argument. It's abortion. And with the border, again, they don't know. They don't care about the help wanted sign at our border. They don't care about the white people who lure these folks across the border. They don't really know that the majority of undocumented immigrants are people who overstayed visas, not people who cross borders. They don't know that there's 50,000 or so undocumented Irish in this country, and there's no movement whatsoever to root them out and deport them. They're not going after the Irish. They're not going after most they're not going after the Russians. They're going after the brown folks. For the president, who's the only president to have hired undocumented immigrants. Reasons, because he didn't want to pay a living wage to American workers, and Trump did it in two different centuries. The fact that they don't go after the employers is how we all know it's a racist scam. So I mean, immigration is a big one. Abortions, obviously the biggest one. Abortion is what the right wing used to rewire the minds of American Christians, and it's why we've had two generations of people saying that putting women or doctors in jail for ending a pregnancy is Christianity. And yet, when you bring up how Jesus really was against executing people, well, they differ with Jesus on that. They agree with Jesus on this thing. They pretend Jesus said so again, they don't follow him. So you don't have to hate them. You're angry, you don't have to get into a big, snarling fight. Let God and Jesus in the Scripture do some of the heavy lifting for you, and you can vary in a friendly way. Say, why should I listen to you instead of the Bible? And by the way, you just think you'll get a lot farther with these right wing people by showing them in the Scripture how Jesus wasn't an immigrant hating homophobe than if you just call your uncle an immigrant hating homophobe.
Joshua Johnson:So if you talk to people, who do you want to pick up this book? I know you want everybody to read your book. Separation. I'm trying to do
John Fugelsang:anyone who has ever had to deal with a Christian nationalist or a fundamentalist in your workplace, in your family, in your school, in your social media feed. Anyone who's ever had to deal with a mean Christian, anyone who's ever watched Fox News and said, Jesus Christ, these people are the opposite of Jesus Christ. You know, this is a book about what Christianity started out as, what it became, and why it's still worth fighting for. I want the ideal audience for this book. I'm sorry. Joshua me, when I was 17, I wrote a book I wish someone had given me when I was a teenager and didn't understand how my religion of love could also be this Falwell religion of hate and cruelty.
Joshua Johnson:Okay, one thing that you said that is kind of, it's getting me to a place where it's worrying me a little bit, okay, is that I can be I can be faithful. I can take care of the poor. I could feed, you know, feed the hungry. I could visit prisoners. I could do these things in Matthew 25 but if my nation's not doing it, there's judgment over the nation. How do we reconcile what our nation is doing and what we as individuals do as faithful, just people in this world to treat people well?
John Fugelsang:Yeah. See, be part of the solution. Carry the baton for your time. On Earth, it's all about greater human rights and greater love for each other and us learning to take care of each other before this world is controlled by four billionaires. So Jesus lived under Roman imperial occupation. They didn't have democracy. We do. We can criticize the rulers. We can vote to change policy. Conservative Christians like to say Jesus said that we should do this, not the government. No, no. He said individuals and nations. And this is the rationale our right wing brothers and sisters use to reject the commandments of Christ in the voting booth. What care for the poor? No, I'm voting Republican care for the sick. No, I'm voting Republican. Love your enemy. No, I'm voting Republican because Jesus said for me to do it individually, so I'll donate to my church. No, no, you're doing the anything but Jesus loophole. You're getting around him again the voting booth. We have this democracy. So if you want a society on Earth as it is in heaven, if you want the kind of world that Jesus talked about, where we care for the poor, care for the sick, avoid violence, try to resolve conflict, rather than giving in to hate. Treat women as equals. Warn the rich that it's not going to work out for then vote for it. Be a part of it with your brief time on Earth. Don't just go to church and pray for the people you know, care about the people you don't know, and put your body in the movement. Go to marches, write letters, call people, get your church to form volunteer groups, build coalitions with non Christian the atheists and the Christians going to work together to fight homelessness. I mean, there's so much you fighting for greater decency in your neighborhood. Is you fighting for greater decency in the United States? It's a ripple effect. I believe it. I've seen it. I've seen it. I was a kid AIDS crisis. I mean, look how far we've come on. Homophobia and America led the way, and it happened because of a plague.
Joshua Johnson:Thank you. There's one thing I'd love to dig deep. We don't have time, but I'd love to dig deep, and the role of art in this way of stopping cycles of violence, not just physical violence, but violence in every way. I think we have cycles of oppression, we have cycles of trauma, we have all sorts of things. And the role of arts and what you do stage through, either through like your shows, your one man shows, or through your stand up comedy, how do you see your role as a great question to stop these
John Fugelsang:cycles. I mean, that's, yeah, that wow. I love that question. That's that. That's one of the things that I can do. You know? I mean, I have a lot of things I can do privately and publicly. I can talk about this stuff, and I can do jokes about it and do routines about it, and I can. I talk about it on the radio. I can tour. I can, you know, try to turn these arguments into stand up comedy routines with setups and punch lines and premises, and make it entertaining. Not just preachy, although, God knows, I can be preachy, but art can heal us. We know it. Art can bring us together. We know our and sports too. By the way, sports can bring us together. But music, I mean, music can bring us together and can bring us into the divine art can also make it worse. I mean, let's never lose sight of how much Christianity in America was wounded by having these blonde haired, blue eyed, white Jesuses in all these Bibles in the 19th and 20th centuries. I mean, it associated divinity with whiteness and all the internalized racism that came for non white people growing up and spending their lives looking at these Bibles and saying, oh, European, good looks. That's godly. You know, art can definitely be destructive. It can damage religion too, but I'm honored you would say so, because for me, Billy Wilder said, if you're going to tell people the truth, make it funny, or they'll kill you. And as a political comedian, that's sort of been my guiding principle, because I don't want to do there's, there's enough guys doing smart propaganda better than me. If I can tack a dick joke onto it, then I've made it amusing and I can go on stage with it. So that's sort of where I come from on that. But you know, it's I mean, and with religion, I mean my god, painting, music, literature, there's so much, and there's so many ways that my spirituality has been deepened because of art. You know, when I was a teenager and I heard YouTube's cover of Woody Guthrie's Jesus Christ, and they did it like a Pogues punk version, and it was like, wow, I just unlocked a way of seeing Jesus in my faith that I had never imagined before in one three minute, you know, rock song. So I'm a big believer in that. And I think that, I mean, obviously, you know, the great religions do it as well. Sorry, but those graven images have gone a long way towards spreading the messages.
Joshua Johnson:You know, if you could say one thing to people that are trying to be faithful to Jesus, that are within the church today, that they're trying to embody Jesus, and there do see some hypocritical ways that the people claiming the church are acting. What would you say to people that are trying to embody the ways of Jesus within the church and what they can do from the inside. You know?
John Fugelsang:I mean, obviously, number one is look out for yourself. I mean, you're responsible for your own soul. So you don't have to make yourself a better Christian by going and, you know, pick and fights with people because they're mean. You can look out for yourself and let the idiots reveal themselves. You don't have to mess with the idiots and the mean people and the bigots. You just you don't have to. It's, you know, we got to help them. We're called to help them. We're called to try to bring them into the light. But it's not our job to save them. And when it comes to election day, it is our job to beat them without hate. So love, you know, just keep, keep sticking to the teachings of Jesus. Keep loving and do not be afraid to engage these right wing Christians and say, How is this of Christ? What does Alligator Alley have to do with anything in the Old or New Testament? I mean alligator Alcatraz. I mean these concentration camps. You know, on immigration alone. On immigration alone, supporting the Republican Party is incompatible with the Old and New Testament period. Abortion, it's not mentioned. We have to take back the narrative from the right, because most people out there would be shocked for me to say that, but yeah, Jesus doesn't mention abortion, doesn't condemn the gays, never says a thing against birth control, commands you to welcome the immigrant. Most Christians would think I'm blaspheming, but I'm just I didn't write it. That's what's there, and they have done such a good job organizing religion of Hood, winking believers into following their movements and ignoring the gospel, the teachings and the commandments of Jesus. So I just say, if your church is telling you who your enemy is. Instead of telling you to love your enemy, you're not really in a church. And sometimes Jesus's whole mission is about transformation. And sometimes the most spiritual thing you can do is change your mind about religion and evolve. That was Jesus's whole message. Sorry, creationist, but evolve was pretty much what His thing was all about.
Joshua Johnson:Couple quick questions at the end. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?
John Fugelsang:Don't lie to women. It's a good one. Ever. Don't lie to anybody, but don't lie to women, especially because you're insecure. Don't try to make women think you're something you're not. Don't try to make anybody think something you're not. You are the way you are. Trying to be somebody else isn't going to do it. Take your imperfect self and figure out your path, but trying, trying to be the person you wish you were, that can be a way to getting where you want to be. But, uh, you know, your dream might not be your destiny, but your dream will lead you there. But I would tell myself. When I was young, just, you know, work out more, you know, just be physically stronger to deal with the stress and the anxiety, because this world will make you
Joshua Johnson:think, yeah, that's true. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend Superman.
John Fugelsang:James Gunn, Superman is the movie that I didn't know my heart needed, and America's heart needed. I've seen it twice. Superman is like Jesus. It's incredibly hard to make a compelling, interesting film about a guy with magical powers who's perfect. It's just hard to tell an interesting story about a guy like that. It's why so many Jesus movies have a lot of good parts. But it's hard to tell the story with Superman. And this new film is beautiful. I mean, when the Secretary of Defense says to him, Well, you're an alien, so the Constitution doesn't apply to you, how could they have known to write that line three years ago? I think spiritual folk will find a lot in there that's extremely that's what I've seen lately that turned me on the most spiritually
Joshua Johnson:Well, separation of church and hate is out everywhere. September 9. You can get it anywhere. Books are sold. It's a fantastic read. I loved it. It's funny. It is well researched, like there's deep theological themes in there, even though you're not a theologian. But I know that you talk to a lot of I talked
John Fugelsang:to a lot. I got a lot of codes for this. I have a lot of interview subjects above my pay grade in this book. And your your your audience may recognize a lot of the names of the people I talk to,
Joshua Johnson:yes, yes. They will. Yes, they will. So John, is there anywhere specific you'd love to point people to to get the book or anywhere else? Yeah.
John Fugelsang:Well, once again, it's called separation of church and hate a sane Person's Guide to taking back the Bible from fundamentalist fascist and flock fleecing frauds. And I would recommend you buy this at the local independent bookstore or the non evil website of your choice. But thank you for buying it, thank you for reading it, and you, if you can do me one more favor when you're done with it, pass it on to somebody else who likes the faith of their fathers but could do without the meanness that some of our fathers had implanted in them.
Joshua Johnson:Well, John, it was a privilege to talk to you, so thank you for coming on. It was a fantastic conversation.
John Fugelsang:Joshua, I'm so honored you would have me. Thank you and thank your audience. It's really a joy to be on your excellent program. And thanks for letting me talk so much. You
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