Shifting Culture
Shifting Culture invites you into transformative conversations at the intersection of faith, culture, justice, and the way of Jesus. Each episode, host Joshua Johnson engages guests who challenge conventional thinking and inspire fresh perspectives for embodying faith in today's complex world. If you're curious about how cultural shifts impact your faith journey and passionate about living purposefully, join us as we explore deeper ways to follow Jesus in everyday life.
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Shifting Culture
Ep. 346 Joshua Ryan Butler - God is On Your Side
What do we do when it feels like God isn’t on our side? In this episode of Shifting Culture, I talk with Joshua Ryan Butler about his new book God Is On Your Side and the ways he’s wrestled with that very question through seasons of heartbreak, illness, and despair. Josh takes us into the Gospel of John, where one-on-one encounters with Jesus become mirrors for our own stories - the paralyzed man, the woman at the well, the man born blind, Lazarus in the tomb. Each scene reveals a God who sees us before we see Him, who calls us beloved, and who can turn even the hardest places into holy places. This conversation is about finding hope in the dark, learning to trust God in uncertainty, and remembering that we are never abandoned.
Joshua Ryan Butler is a Teaching Pastor with the Willamette family of churches in the Portland area and the author of God is On Your Side, The Party Crasher, Beautiful Union, The Skeletons in God’s Closet, and The Pursuing God. Josh loves shifting paradigms, to help people who wrestle with tough topics of the Christian faith by confronting popular caricatures and replacing them with the beauty and power of the real thing. He and his wife, Holly, along with their three children, live in Portland, Oregon. They enjoy spending time with friends over great meals and exploring the scenic beauty of the Pacific Northwest.
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The reality is we're invited in Christ as the church to find our deepest core identity as the beloved of God. And when that happens, you're not starting from good stuff I've done, or the bad stuff I've done or whatever, like you're starting with who God is towards you, you know, and that just changes the game.
Joshua Johnson:Hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we could make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, today I'm joined by Joshua. Ryan Butler his new book, God is on your side. Doesn't shy away from the deep questions. What do we do when life unravels, when it feels like God has stepped out of the room, when we're left wondering if he's really for us out of his own stories of heartbreak, blindness and even wrestling with despair. Josh leads us back to the Gospel of John. He shows us how its one on one encounters with Jesus aren't just ancient stories, but mirrors where we find ourselves today, paralyzed, thirsty, blind, lost, and discover that God sees us before we ever see him. This conversation is an invitation to sit in the tension of hard seasons and still trust that the God who passes by is also the God who stays with us. It's about belovedness surprise and the hope that even the hardest places can become holy places. So join us. Here is my conversation with Joshua. Ryan Butler, Josh Welcome to shifting culture. So excited to have you on. Thanks for coming on and joining me.
Joshua Ryan Butler:Thanks so much. We're so looking forward to the conversation.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, I just want to start a little bit of where you start in your book. So you open the book some really personal stories of heartbreak, illness, some betrayal. How do those seasons, those different seasons in your life, shape your sense of whether God is really on your side or not
Joshua Ryan Butler:definitely? Man, no, yeah. So you know the book's called, God is on your side, but that's like you're saying. That was really the heart behind it, just going, man, what do we do in those seasons when it doesn't feel like, God, you're on my side, like you're really with me or for me. And so in my own life, I mean, there's been a variety of those seasons, but, you know, a few just examples. I think, when our daughter was five years old and she had a psychotic break and spent 10 days in the hospital and six months with specialists, and we thought we might have lost the girl that we loved in the moon and back. You know, if we known her, they thought it might be permanent. And I found myself just going, man, God, are you really with us right now? Are you really for us? Because it feels like we're on our own out here, you know, or I had a season a few years back where I went blind in my right eye, and the doctors were concerned. They weren't sure what was causing it, and the concern was that it could be coming from my left eye as well. And so like, you need to prepare yourself that you're likely going blind this next year, and it ended up not being the case. We determined the causation was different, but didn't know that for about a year. So I spent about a year just going, man, what's it going to be like if I can't see my kids faces growing up, if I can't read and write the way I know how? And I mean, you can be blind and still have a great life, but but I was reimagining just what my future looked like with everything I knew I must have gone, man, God, are you really for me? Are you really with me? Are you really on my side right now, and even, you know, the immediate context of the book, you know, about two years ago, found myself in kind of coming out of a brutal season, and for the first time in my life, wrestling with some suicidal thoughts, even, you know, and just going, Man, the the thought was that it would be better for your family and friends as closest to you, if you just weren't around, you know. And that was a lie from the enemy, you know. It wasn't, was it wasn't true. But in the middle of that, I think, just wrestling with, God, have you left the buildings? That's what it feels like right now. It feels like feels like I'm on my own right now. And so, yeah, a lot of the heart of the book is going, Man, where do we go when it feels like God's not on our side? How do we grapple navigate those kind of seasons
Joshua Johnson:you went to the book of John as one of the places that you found some solace in to say, hey, maybe God is on my side, and I find it through this book, this beautiful book, the beautiful gospel. Why the book of John? What is it for you that really shows us that God is with us?
Joshua Ryan Butler:Yes, definitely, man. So yeah, like you said, I went back to the Gospel of John because it's been kind of my favorite gospel. I think for a lot of people, a lot of people go, man, this is this is my favorite book of the Bible. Or when someone becomes a new Christian, we'll often give them the Gospel of John. Hey, start here because you just get this beautiful, clear portrait of Jesus, this picture of who Jesus is. But I've also found one of the things that's so beautiful about John is that you can be reading it for the first time, brand new to John. Jesus and just everything's, man, popping. Like, why? But it's like the waters are shallow enough for a brand new believer to wade in, right? But it's also oceanic enough that you can be now, I'm a few decades into following Jesus, and I'm still like, there's depths in that ocean. Man, there's like, stuff that is still decades later, like lights turning on and popping. And so I found myself going back to the gospel John one because I might just need Jesus. I need to see I need a fresh vision and glimpse of Jesus right now. And because, man, all these things just started coming alive. Where I think part of getting into those oceanic depths in John is seeing some of the ways that he's drawing Old Testament backdrops that help these famous scenes of what Jesus is doing, pop in Technicolor, where it's like going, Whoa. That's where those extra layers come in. And what I found for myself was John's Gospel. I focused in the book on these one on one encounters that Jesus has with various individuals throughout John because I saw myself in those encounters, it was like man. I was the man who'd been paralyzed for 38 years, encountering Jesus, offering to lift me up. I was the woman at the well, you know, like encounter Jesus and being invited into life with him. I was Barabbas getting exchanged on the ground, like I was all of these characters, you know. And I think that's actually part of John's design. Is an intention. Is not that we would just read this as kind of abstract history, but actually that we would find ourselves almost like scenes in stained glass windows or iconic mirrors or something, that we actually find ourselves in these stories, that we could encounter Jesus and see him seeing us in some of our most desperate seasons. You're looking
Joshua Johnson:at these one on one encounters. I want to actually, then also talk about the signs that John has in his Gospel. And I want to go big picture, just to set the stage of the book, the whole book of John, what do you think his intention is placing these signs? What do you think his core thesis, and what is everything like moving towards,
Joshua Ryan Butler:great, yeah. So John famously has these seven signs, and each one, I would suggest, I argue in the book is a picture of the gospel. It's actually a picture of Christ's death and resurrection and what he's come to accomplish and bring So, as an example, his very first sign, wedding at Cana. It's interesting, like it happens on the third day. We're told, and you're kind of going, okay, third day of what John, you know, third day of the week, third day of the year. It doesn't say. It's actually ambiguous, you know. But I argue, you know? I look throughout the, you know, John sets up each of his stories with these little clues. And so Third Day is a clue he uses throughout you're about to see a resurrection scene. And so on the third day, there's this wedding where Jesus man provides an abundance, crazy amount of wine, like 150 gallons, and it's like 750 bottles or so, something like that, you know. And to a party that is already lit. I mean, they've been drinking for days. It's been a wedding piece. It's been whatever you know, you're going Jesus. Why are you making so much wine? What's going on here? You know? But when you get the Old Testament backdrop, it's interesting here. Now, prophets like Joel and Amos, they talked about how when the Messiah comes, he's going to bring this abundance of wine. So the prophet Amos, for example, said, Man, when the Messiah comes, the mountains shall drip sweet wine and all the hills shall flow with it. I'll restore the fortunes of my people Israel. They'll rebuild the ruined cities habit them. They'll plant vineyards and drink their wine, and it goes and just going, Man, this is about more than just wine. This is about restoration of the people from exile. This is about God bringing his people out of desolation, back into the land, back into abundance, back into his kingdom. And so I think Jesus is making all this wine. You know, it's a picture of what he's come to bring through the gospel. Is this resurrection wedding with false wine. And it's interesting too. John tells us that the water Jesus uses for this miracle is from the Jewish rites of purification. These vessels they would use for purification rites. And there's a picture of the gospel here too, that you used to get washed with water, but now you get washed with wine. Right? Meaning, in the Old Covenant, in the Old Testament, there were purification rights with water that we'd get washed with. But now in the Gospel, like actually, Jesus's blood, the wine of his blood shed for us is what atones for our sin, cleanses us, as His people, makes us fit for the kingdom. And it's interesting, at the end of John's gospel, the crucifixion, when Jesus is being crucified. Towards the end, there's a spear that pierces his side, and out comes blood and water. And I think there's stuff John's doing with the language he uses in that scene too, where it's like, I argue in the book, Jesus is the seventh vessel, right? Like he uses these six vessels that represent the Old Testament, covenant, you know, water, but now Jesus is the seventh vessel who turns water into wine through himself like now the water of His Spirit, the wine of his bloodshed, is how we're washed and cleansed may appear and all this kind of comes to a head with the ending of the scene where the master of the banquet is. Taste the wine and says, Oh my gosh, you've saved the best for last. Tells you, my man, most people bring out the, you know, good stuff first, and then they get to the Tupac, Chuck and whatever at the end, you know, but you actually brought the best stuff out at the end. What's going on there? Well, dude, this is a picture of the kingdom, like Jesus. I think we have a picture of the master of the feast, like the father at the wedding feast, banquet of His Son and His Church, His Bride, like he goes, Jesus, the father delights in the sacrificial love of the son poured out for his bride to accomplish this wedding, he goes, this is better than all the Old Testament, sacrifices, all the other stuff you've saved the best for last, like what Christ has accomplished on the cross through His death and resurrection, is this wedding feast of abundance and restoration and union with his people, and the Father is celebrating and rejoicing. And so that's the first sign. And, yeah, basically just go, man. I think throughout the book, I kind of look at each of the seven signs. It's like, it's not just like, hey, cool party trick Jesus, that's rad. What he you know, he's powerful. You do that thing. It's like, no, he's actually orchestrating, like a parable of the kingdom, a picture of what his death and resurrection accomplishes for the world.
Joshua Johnson:That actually makes me fall in love with the Bible even more. Right? This story that moves from the beginning to the end, that is a cohesive story that bringing in elements from the end, some analogies and metaphors of what it looks like to live in the kingdom. What Jesus is going to do is resurrection, like, how we get to live now in the kingdom, what's going to come in the consummation? Like this whole story of the Bible just phenomenal. And every time think of it as, like a big story from beginning to end, I'm like, Okay, I could find myself in it. This is when I know that God is on my side. There's a lot of times when people take, you know, different verses, like one verse that says God is for you and like, it's like, okay, that's a good truth, but it doesn't hit me. Like being part of the story hits me. So if I could find myself, so how did you find yourself here in the manboard blind. I'm going to take the physical representation of you going blind in an eye, and then just as Jesus passes by this man who was born blind, he was blind from birth and healing him like where did you find yourself in that story? And how did you know that God was with you? Because of it, definitely.
Joshua Ryan Butler:Well, man, you know, one of the things that was so really popped for me in that story where Jesus sees the man, warm blind is, as you mentioned. It says, you know, it opens with, as he passed by, Jesus saw him. One of things that struck me was like, dude, Jesus sees him before he sees Jesus, you know, and Jesus sees him in his condition, and I found myself in the season of, you know, with the blindness in my right eye, and this kind of processing and wrestling with Man, am I? Am I losing my vision? One of the questions more metaphorically in that, was like, God, I can't see you right now. I don't know where you are, you know, like I I'm really wrestling with, have you abandoned me? Or, what does this mean? Like, what, not only because of the physical condition, but also because, you know, I felt called to, I don't know, like, I think of like, writing and reading and, you know, those are kind of some core parts of stuff that I do, and I'm like, Man, am I gonna be able to fulfill what I feel called to do? Is that actually, is that calling from you, you know, and and the fear of, like, am I gonna be able to see my kids faces, growing up, someone's fears and all that set up this place of going, God, I feel like I can't see you right now. I don't understand what you're out doing. And in this story, one of the things that was so powerful was like, dude, Jesus can see me even when I can't see him, you know, like that he sees us before we see him. And things struck me is says as he passed by. And that phrase passed by, you go to Old Testament like it's Greek in the New Testament, but the phrase, same phrase used in the Greek version of the Old Testament, it's a famous phrase that shows up regularly for God's glory passing by. So you think of Moses like my glory is going to pass by. Hide you in the cleft of the rock, or job, like in the midst of his suffering, and yet God's glory passes by, you know. And so there's this imagery, or this picture of Jesus is Yahweh in the flesh, the God of the Old Testament come to save and deliver his people. His glory is passing by. And this guy can't see it yet, you know. But Jesus sees him kind of like, I found myself going, Man, I feel like I can't see it yet. And yet you're forming, you're coming towards me. You're to me. And another thing that struck me was when Jesus heals the man, he rubs it's the mud in his eye and saliva and everything, and he tells him to wash himself in the pool of Siloam. And what hit me was, after this man was healed, he still hadn't seen Jesus yet. You know, like, like, he had to go wash the mud off, and he's somewhere else. And so he still hasn't seen he's encountered the presence of Jesus, but he hasn't yet seen Jesus face to face. And I feel like that's like a picture of all of us in some way. You know, it's like, man we, you know, New Testament church today, these days, like we've had a real encounter. Honor with Jesus, through His Spirit, His presence, he has encountered us. He's opened our eyes. And the Pool of Siloam, I argue it's a picture of baptism as well. And so we've been baptized. We've been washed by the Spirit. We've had our eyes opened by the presence of Christ, but we still haven't seen him yet face to face, you know, and this guy's getting grilled and questioned by the leaders of the day, you know who did this and what's going on, and his testimony, though, is all he's got. He's like, I don't know who's got. All I know is, I once was blind, now I see and I think similarly, like, we're in a spot where, even if we haven't seen Jesus face to face yet, we've encountered His presence. We've experienced the transformational work he's done in our lives, and Johnson elsewhere in Revelation. Man we overcome by the word of our testimony, the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony, like the blood of the Lamb, like what Christ has done, and the word of our testimony, what the impact that's had in our lives. And in short, man, I found myself in that season for that year, my theme verse became from the book of Job where he says, Man, though he slayed me, yet will I trust him? And I found myself. I didn't get there day one, but over the next few months, I found God encountering me, working on me, bringing me to a place of heart, of going, not just what, moving from what if to even if, from, like, what if I go blind to even if I go blind, God, I will trust you, though you slay me. Yet will I trust you? And I don't know. Yeah, so I think that's one of the God often wants to do in those seasons, is cultivate our trust and take us to a deeper level of trusting Him, not in spite of our circumstances, but even in the midst of it.
Joshua Johnson:So in the midst of circumstances, some people in the midst of difficult circumstances say, Where are you, God? I don't sense your presence. I don't know that you're here. What helps you? This presence like that he's with you, like the withness of God. Even you know, I know people go through the dark nights of the soul where, like God is far off, and he feels far off. And question, Is God really with me or not? How have you found his withness in those difficult places where he feels far off?
Joshua Ryan Butler:Yeah, that's great. Well, two different thoughts come to mind. I'll start with kind of the easier one, and then move to the more in depth one, you know. So the first thing that comes to mind is, man, there's a practice that my wife and I like to use of listening prayer, right, where we'll kind of, like, when I'm feeling unsettled, or something difficult is going on, or I feel confused or frustrated, and all kind of two phases in this prayer, where the first one will be Jesus, like, what's the lie? The fear, like, what's the lie that I'm being told, or the fear that I'm believing, you know. And I'll take a moment, 30 seconds, a minute or so, bring that for the Lord, and just take some time to listen. And often, that'd be something that will surface, not always, but often, you know. And then I'll take whatever that is and go, Okay, well, Jesus, what's the truth that you want to speak into that, you know? So to give an example, I remember, this is some years back, but I woke up one morning and I had this thought just blaring in my head of, you're gonna die soon. You're about to die soon. And I was like, man, well, what's that? Where's that coming from? You know, is kind of out of left field, but it was like, blaring, really strong. I share the story more in the so I went for a walk, and I kind of brought that with the Lord. I was like, Okay, what's going on? Where's this thought camera, so what's the lie, the fear, you know, where's this come from? And what began to surface since the spirit surfacing? For me, I had just finished this major ministry project that had taken quite a while, and there was a sense of going, Okay, now that's done. The Lord doesn't need you anymore. And and like the and realizing I'm like, there's some stuff going on here. The lie underneath is, Hey, God just wants to use you. He was just using you to get that done, and now that's done. Doesn't need you anymore. So I took that and I brought the Lord. I'm like, Okay, well, Jesus, what's the truth that you want to speak in? And very clearly, the phrase I heard was, before I called you to use you, I called you to love you, you know, like I think I didn't call you to see you. I called you to love you like you're my child. And the thing before broke, you know, like the power of whatever that thing was broke and so often on something that's my first thought that comes to mind is prayer. But specifically, that's a method of prayer that my wife and I found really helpful for just bringing tough stuff before the Lord, and we're going through it. But the second thought that comes to mind, and this is maybe more of the when life really hits the fan, you know, like, so let's just say, for example, like, two years ago, when I mentioned my life blew up, and a lot of loss, a lot of, God, where are you? The first time of really, like, suicidal thoughts and all. And for me, it was really a multifaceted approach for that next year where man, counseling, like getting in with a good counselor, was huge community, having a close community of trusted friends that I could process and walk with medication. In my case, like Man, it was really helpful to get on some medication that helped as well. I. And and the so I think just going back, there was no quick fix, you know, like, and I think also giving time for a process, because it was really about a year, especially six months like, felt like dark night of the soul, about a year of just because part of what was happening actually was I found God using my immediate circumstances to actually surface some really deeper layers from my childhood and deep stuff in my story that I didn't even realize, you know, it's like, Man, I thought I'd moved on from all that. I thought that was just in the past, you know, and all this stuff starts getting dredged up. And I'm like, Dude, I don't need to do I had enough this year to do. I need to go back to that stuff, you know, and that stuff was just coming like a train, like a freight train. And so what I found was like man, underneath some of the disillusionment and despair in that season was some deep level spiritual formation work with God. I probably did some of the deepest spiritual formation in my life, digging into layers of my childhood and life story and my personality and where that was all coming to all this stuff. And so I think there's even beautiful invitation in those seasons to go deep with God, yeah, but, but I don't want to sugarcoat that either and make it sound like that's like a quick fix or an easy overnight thing, because it's, yeah, it was a process.
Joshua Johnson:Didn't sound like a quick fix or an easy overnight thing at all, even when you were trying to maybe sugarcoat it, it wasn't sugarcoating at all. I think that God wants to do that over time, because I think this is one of the things that God really likes to do break cycles of fear, violence, oppression, trauma, and these are generational cycles that usually we pass on things generationally. And if we don't do that work of childhood, work like bringing things up, we're going to passing on things that we've inherited as well, that Christ wants to break us free from that. But not just break us free, but break generations free from it. And so I think it's pretty phenomenal we often think, like in America, I think so individualistically, right? It's just about me, but it's actually he's doing bigger work than we actually think he is, even just in our own little story. It's actually the next generation, and for people later on, where there's going to be something more flourishing, and so that they could sit in the place where they know that they're Beloved. And I think you you write about, you know, John's all about belovedness of, you know, being a beloved child of God, the one that that Jesus loved. So belovedness is really important. So as you're looking at belovedness in John, then one of the places you pointed out is the story of the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman. How did Jesus bring out the belovedness in her? And how can we start to sit in the belovedness of God?
Joshua Ryan Butler:Definitely. Man, well, I love this story. Man, the woman at the well, it's a lot of people's favorite, John chapter four. And maybe my first observation, in terms of the Old Testament backdrop, again, right? That I think helps us even pop at a bigger level, is the well, like the location that they meet. And if you go, Oh man, where's the Well, well, in the well, the well is the location where the groom meets the bride. And so we see this in places like Genesis 24 it's where Rebecca is discovered for Isaac. It's where Jacob first locks eyes with Rachel in Genesis 29 it's where Moses and sephirah meet in Exodus, chapter two. And so the leading Jewish scholar, Robert Alter, he's a famous, influential, leading Jewish scholar refers to the well as a like a Hebrew type scene for the location where the groom and the bride first meet. And he gives like five key characteristics of these scenes. So the first one is that the future groom journeys to a foreign land, and we see Jesus doing that here in John chapter four, going through Samaria. The second one is there. He encounters a girl at a well, and that happens here with Jesus and the woman. Third one is one of them draws water from the well. There's this whole discussion in John four about the water getting drawn a fourth one is the girl rushes home with news of the stranger's arrival. And that happens. The smarten woman runs back and tells everyone, you gotta come meet this person. And the fifth one is a betrothal is concluded after he has been invited to a meal. So that. And we see that picture here where Jesus and then invited by the spares to stay for a couple days and to feast with him, right? And so, well, what's going on here? Well, I don't I'm not saying that anything literally romantic is happening between Jesus and this woman, but I am saying that John is narrating this story. I think it's a real encounter. Jesus encounters this woman, but John is narrating the details. I think Jesus is even orchestrating what's happening here as a window into a greater reality, kind of this picture of Christ encountering church as his bride, and which is interesting, we talk about this theme of being beloved, right, as the church being beloved of Christ, and a few. Things that we see about the belovedness of the church in the story, I think, is well as a picture of the church, Jesus crosses all these boundaries to get to us, like he's crossing all these in John four, he's crossing boundaries of ethnicity, of socioeconomics, of religious boundary, like he's crossing all these divides that Jews and Samaritans hated each other, dude, and Jesus is crossing everything he can to get to his beloved. And I think in the bigger picture, Jesus is the one who's crossed the greatest boundary from heaven to earth to get to us. You know, like to be with us, to be on our side. And the Samaritan woman, I think, is a pretty fitting picture of the church as well, because, like her, the church is part Jew and part Gentile, like Samaritans were Jewish and Gentile, and that's a major theme in the New Testament. The church's identity is Jew and Gentile. Like her, we are from the wrong side of town. We encounter Jesus as one again, who journeys from a far off place, from a distant land, from heaven to earth, to meet us, and not just to like have a one off encounter and leave again, but actually to be united with us forever, as His people, you know, and so, yeah, because we get to have more. And I think that picture, for me, is so powerful of the scene as a picture of us encountering Christ as His Beloved. And one other theme that comes up here with kind of the Old Testament backdrop, and is we're told that she had five husbands in the past, and the person she's with now is not her husband. Well, on a symbolic level in the Old Testament, I kind of argue throughout the book that every number is significant. I think every number is echoing something here, and a number of commentators have observed how she's a fitting representative for Samaria and the Samaritans, because in the Old Testament, Samaria was the northern kingdom of Israel, and when they were invaded by Assyria, Assyria, basically they were invaded by five cities who brought their five male gods and planted them in Israel. And so part of the history of Israel is leaving would have been described by Old Testament prophets as adultery with these five foreign male gods. You know, like they're cheating on Yahweh with these other that's in Second Kings 17, that this all gets narrated and like that. You know, I think you say that we, as the church, we have had many other lovers. We've been both. There's been gnarly things done to us by the powers of the world. And then we've given ourselves over to other things as well and chased after these other things. And so I think that becomes a picture of, though, of man. Now, in Jesus, we've encountered, I call in the book Jesus the seventh husband, right? You have these so Samaria, you have the five, then you have the one. Now she's with now, who's not currently her husband. And scholars have seen that as a picture of she's now kind of with Yahweh, but not fully in the covenant, like married, no, you know. But now the seventh Jesus has come and him like, Dude, she's leaving behind all those other five as Samaria is leaving, called to leave behind the five idols we as the church, we're leaving behind the gods of the nations, the idols of the power, you know, all those other things to be united to Jesus in covenant with him as his people and his bride. So man, we're beloved, we're Beloved,
Joshua Johnson:we are beloved. We are beloved, but we forget it, right? Yes, we forget our belovedness. And then we go off and we choose on Jesus with all of the powers of this world, usually, you know, it's money, sex and power, right? On Jesus with throughout history. And it happens over and over again. And the beautiful thing about Jesus is he calls us back and says, I still want you, and you are still my beloved. And come back to me, yes, calls us back totally. And that's beautiful, even when we consistently do him wrong, yeah, in the church, we just do him wrong all the time. So I'm so glad that he calls us
Joshua Ryan Butler:back. Definitely hangs, definitely yeah. And I love that, even that image of the well, you know, so I kind of, I went recently. This is about two weeks ago. I was in town here walking. I walked back by the place where I first proposed to Holly, my wife, you know. And it just brought back this flood of emotions, all the memory, you know. And I feel like the well, in John Chapter Four is almost like it is going back to the place where you first met, you know. And we have all these iconic scenes of first encounters in in our culture, like, I don't know When Harry Met Sally, or, you know, the place where the couple kind of meets and sees each other becomes this classic scene, or Romeo and Juliet by the fish tank and whatnot. But in my own life, and I think in our lives, like there's an invitation here, when we do forget our belovedness and we run off to these other places, we have things happen to us to go back to the place where we met Christ to recount our story and celebrate that story, and he's there to meet with us again, you know. And, and I love like you mentioned to you. One last thought here on this is the beloved theme is like, like you mentioned a minute ago, how John refers to himself throughout the gospel as the beloved disciple, and that's amazing to me. Like, I kind of go, I had a friend asked me once, he's like, man, what, what do you want put on your tombstone? Like, when you die? That's a morbid question. You know, he's like, but he's like, when you die someday, like, what do you wish your legacy would be? And I feel like, for John, this is, like, what he's got on his tombstone, you know, it's like, Dude, I was loved by Jesus. Like, beloved. That's the most important thing I could I'm gonna use my name, like the more important than my own name is that Jesus has seen me, known me, called me, love me. And that's actually a major theme where the name David, for example, in the Old Testament, literally means beloved. It's the Hebrew word for Beloved. So whenever Israel's celebrating King David, the son of David, all that they're saying King beloved, son of the beloved. You know, like when, like Song of Songs behind my beloved and My beloved is mine. And Israel saw themselves in this relationship with God as His Beloved. So King David was the beloved of God. Israel saw themselves beloved of God. Jesus, when He's baptized, the father says, This is My beloved Son, and who I'm well pleased Jesus hasn't even done anything yet. You know, he hasn't done his ministry yet. And so I think the reality is we're invited in Christ as the church to find our deepest core identity as the beloved of God. And when that happens, you're not starting from good stuff I've done, or the bad stuff I've done or whatever, like you're starting with who God is towards you, you know, and that just changes the game.
Joshua Johnson:One of the people that Jesus really loved was Lazarus. There's a very small group of scholars, some people, they argue that Lazarus actually wrote the book of Johnson, that and that, because he was the beloved, that Jesus loved him, was a great friend, which I think is kind of fun to think about. I don't know if that happened, but it's fun to think about that he's there. And, you know, a lot of John takes place around Lazarus and where he was from, and the other gospels don't actually have those things in there. So it is an interesting thing that some people think that Lazarus wrote,
Joshua Ryan Butler:John, it's so interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, I've seen some of the scholarship on I'm like, That's intriguing. Yeah, it's worth reflecting
Joshua Johnson:on. But when you looked through Johnny, looked at that story, what stood out to you with the story of Lazarus, the raising of Lazarus.
Joshua Ryan Butler:Well, a couple things. You know, one piece that really, I'd never seen before was how so arguing the book that John 10, where Jesus talks about himself as the Good Shepherd, and John 11, with the raising of Lazarus from the dead, are meant to go together like they're actually heard together. And so, so there's a lot of interesting stuff here, where, for example, in John 10 Jesus is talking about himself like, I'm the Good Shepherd, my sheep. Know my voice. I call him out of the pen, and they come come out, you know. He also says, I'm the gate for the sheep, you know. And so they can come out and and in context, so kind of setting the stage for Lazarus in a second, right? But in the context, in Jesus being the Good Shepherd is back in Ezekiel, 34 Ezekiel before where God is confronting Bad Shepherds, leaders of God's people, who are mistreating, abusing like horrible, you know, but he holds out this hope that the day is coming when I myself will come and shepherd my people. So I think subtext here Jesus is going that day is here like there are a lot of bad shepherds out here who've been mistreating my sheep, but now I, as the Good Shepherd have come and My sheep know my voice, and I myself. I am Yahweh in the flesh, come to redeem and to care for and shepherd and guide my people. Now in the Lazarus story, a lot of the same language and imagery is used that Jesus was using in the Good Shepherd stuff. So the Good Shepherd calls his sheep by name. Jesus calls Lazarus by name, Lazarus come out. I am the gate for the sheep. I am the resurrection and the life. Like Lazarus is raised from the dead through Jesus, through his power as the resurrection alive. I think there's Exodus imagery that's used here as well, where depiction of that says that Lazarus was, I mean, it's been a little bit so I'm trying to remember for sure. But like that, Lazarus is bound in the grave clothes, like the picture, like, dude, these are like chains that he's bound in. And so now the ultimate bad Shepherd, death, Satan, the Dominion revealed, like Jesus is coming. He's the Good Shepherd who's breaking that gate open. He's calling Lazarus his sheep out of the tomb out into open pastures of life with him. And here's one final thought, instead of is, it's kind of a big one, though, is I argue in the structure of John that so John five to 10, really, five to 11 are a unit, right? And so John two to four has a certain structure. And then in John five opens where Jesus is at the sheep gate. And then in John 10, Good Shepherd, he says, I am the gate for the sheep. And everything in this section is against the backdrop of Israel's wilderness wanderings. And so there's Israel getting manna in the wilderness. John six, it. Israel getting water in the wilderness. John seven, there's Israel being led by light in the wilderness. John eight and nine, there's God shepherding his people in the wilderness. John 10, and all that to say, when you get to Lazarus, you've got now Exodus imagery of God calling his people out, out of Egypt, out from the tomb, out into life with him. And it's like the seventh sign, right? And all through the Gospel of John, thus far, he's been given these six prior signs that are all about Jesus, death and resurrection. Now in John seven, we see like, I mean, John in in Lazarus, we see the seventh sign the clearest. Hey, here's what I've come to do, man, my death and resurrection is going to raise you from the dead. It's going to knock open that gate and call you out, call out my people as my sheep, into my open pastures.
Joshua Johnson:It's beautiful. I mean, I love that and that He's calling us out into open pastures, that we are the sheep, as you know, as you move then out of raising of Lazarus, then into the raising of Jesus Himself. And you talk about anticipating hope that there is some surprises and anticipating surprise. Surprises. This morning, some spiritual direction. My spiritual director told me to look for God surprises. I mean, that's one of my assignments coming out of spiritual direction this morning, is to look for these surprises. And I want to know is, how do you anticipate surprise in the midst of darkness, of when there is Saturday and you have nothing, it's dark, you feel like the enemy has lied to you. Said nobody needs you. God isn't with you. Your family doesn't need you. How do you anticipate surprise and like, hey, hope may be coming?
Joshua Ryan Butler:Yes, definitely. Well, so in the story here John 20 as the first story of Jesus resurrection in John's Gospel. And I love it how it opens where it's dark. On the third day in the dark, Mary went to the tomb. And I think about that, how Mary is going to the hard place she's she's will make the journey in the dark to the difficult place where what she loves was lost. You know, I mean, Jesus has been her everything, her deliverer, like her hope, all that has now been destroyed by the crucifixion. And so for Mary, it's probably like the darkest spot she's ever been in all hope is lost, and yet she still has the courage to go to the tomb, to go to the hard place, to go to where what she loves was lost. And I see that as something powerful, like in our own lives, like I'm tempted, you know, to ignore the hard places, to avoid going to the difficult. So even in my own difficult season, I shared earlier about you, two years ago and going through the year of counseling and processing stuff, I felt like that was, in a sense, it was going to the tomb, you know, it was going to the area where, man, it feels like Jesus is gone. It feels like I'm in dark night of the soul. And God, it seems like you're not around anywhere, you know, I can't see you. I don't know where you are. It feels like all hope is lost. I feel like I really knew you, but now I don't know where I'm at. And I think for a lot of us, you know, for people, it takes courage in the dark night of the soul, to go to the tomb, to not just kind of run to trying to medicate or entertain or by Medicaid. I mean, you know, with drugs or, you know, addictions or behaviors that are not going to be healthy for us, we can easily avoid or enter trying to get sucked up in entertainment or ignoring or distracting. I think a lot of that we're avoiding grief, you know. And yet, to go to the tomb is to go to some of those hard places in our life where God feels absent, or what we love has been lost, and to sit, to sit, sit with that, you know. And yet, what married encounters when she goes to the tomb, and I think John is depicting Mary here, as well as a representative of the church in the season. In the scene, Mary goes and and encounters not only the resurrected Christ, but I love this image where she goes in the empty tomb. And in the tomb, we're told that on the slab where Jesus's body lay, there's an angel at the head and an angel at the foot. Well, that's an interesting Old Testament echo where that's like the Ark of the Covenant, dude, where what you had in the Holy of Holies, in the most holy place, you had the Ark of the Covenant, had the angel at the head and the angel at the foot, and the blood was spilled, you know, was shed, was put on the Ark of the Covenant to atone for the people's sin, and it was seen as the resting place for God, like God's footstool, God on His holy throne, resting his feet on there. And, okay, what's the point here? Well, I think the symbolism here is saying that the hard place has become a holy place, but now the spot where Jesus's crucified body lay has now been transformed through the. Power of His sacrifice into a place where the power and presence of God, His reconciling, restoring presence, is now coming out of here to redeem and restore the world, you know. And on a macrocosm level, you know, on a big level, it's going, Dude, the hard place has become a holy place, like Jesus is the crucifixion. This is like ground zero for everything blew up and went down, and yet it's now becoming the place through which God is reconciling and restoring creation and humanity to himself in and through Christ. But on a microcosm level, I'd say, for Mary herself as a picture of the church, she goes to the hard place where it seems like God is absent, and yet encounters there that the hard place has become a holy place where she meets with the glorified, resurrected Christ. And I can attest in my own life that part of what happened, part of what I experienced in going to the hard place, with counseling, with friends, with processing, with not avoiding or ignoring. And there were times where I wanted to avoid ignoring, what's but like, but going, God wouldn't let me, man. He kept bringing me back into the hard place. Going into those hard places became places of some of the deepest, most intimate encounter with God on the other side, you know. And so that phrase you mentioned, you say, anticipate, surprise. I think because of the resurrection of Christ, part of what the resurrection means is that on our own personal microcosm levels, right, we can go to we can take courage to go to the hard places of our lives, to go to the memories, the wounds, the hurts, the scars, the places that it could be easier to avoid. And yet, when we go to those hard places, I believe the part of the significance of resurrection that Christ loves to encounter us there. It may not be overnight, it may take some time, it may be a season, but that Christ loves to encounter us there, and that the power of Jesus can transform our hard places into holy places where we most deeply encounter the presence of the living God.
Joshua Johnson:How beautiful those hard places could be, holy places that we could actually go there. That's such a beautiful description of what happens there on the micro level and on the macro level, you talk about as the place where Jesus starts to redeem and restore all things and renew all things through Him for that level. But we also get to participate in this which is strange and weird that he says, Come along with me, and we get to participate in this kingdom work. So restore and renew all things on Earth, which is incredible. Thank you, Jesus, that you invite us along, but he's inviting Peter along when he restores Peter. So the restoration of Peter, this is my favorite story in all scripture, so I want to get into it. And I think it might be my favorite story, because at the end, before Jesus ascends, he just wants to have a barbecue on the beach with his friends. So it just gives me an excuse to barbecue over an open flame and hang out with my friends. But other than that, just this beautiful restoration that we just see on this level of Peter, what's happening in the story that that may be surprising to us that we may not have recognized and seen even you know, I've, as you said something about, like, bringing all people in, like, it, it is a little surprising, some of the stuff that you said. So what? What would be surprising
Joshua Ryan Butler:here? Definitely, yes, like you said, I love the story. Jesus is busting out the Traeger grill, and he's cooking up a feast and grilling and and making it happen. But, yeah, so big picture. I think what Jesus is doing here is he is walking Peter through some of his painful memories in order to redeem and restore them, right? And so the first part of the scene, disciples have been fishing all night. It's in the dark, and I think there's even some symbolism here. You know, it's darkness. The boat is out, hovering over the waters, and there's echoes of Genesis, one here, of like, like the spirit hovering over the waters, darkness, having no catch anything. But then there's the light breaks, and the voice, the word of God, goes forth over the waters, and Jesus says, Hey, Cast your net on the other side. So they do have this miraculous catch of 153 fish. Boats are full, right? What's going on here? Well, couple thoughts. First off, so if Jesus is reinstating Peter's calling, right? And so a lot of the details in the scene echo when Jesus first called Peter. This is in Luke's gospel, but I believe John, many scholars would say it's written last, and he's drawing off of the Matthew Mark and Luke like as common knowledge, right? And so some of the themes that happen in Luke's gospel is Jesus does same thing. Hey, if they're gonna see the other side, they have this miraculous catch of fish. And so much so that in Luke the nets are breaking, the boats are going under. They can't hold this massive cat. Church, and then Jesus calls Peter follow me, and I'll make you a fisher of men. So the miraculous catch of fish earlier in Peter's life, it's a sign of His calling to go and gather in the nations, to be an evangelist, really, to bring the gospel. And now he's gonna become a fisher of men, like bringing people to encounter Jesus, right? Well, why? John tells us here in John 21 he says the nets were not torn. They have this massive catch of fish. But he goes, even still, the nets were not torn. Why does he include that? Well, if you remember the earlier story where the nets were torn, there's a sense. Well, when Jesus first called Peter, he wasn't ready for the gathering of the nations. It was coming like he and the church. You have the church like the boat, like Peter. And the church were not yet ready. Peter and the disciples were not yet ready for the miraculous catch of fish, the in gathering of the nations that God was going to bring. They still needed three years with Jesus, walking with him. He still needed to go through the death. You know Jesus, death and resurrection. He'd go through his own failure and so on. There was a lot he had to go through, but now Jesus is reinstating him, and Pentecost is about to come. And when Pentecost comes, dude, Peter's going to lead the gathering of the nations. There's going to be a miraculous catch. Every nation, tribe and tongue, is like entering into the kingdom, you know. And Peter's gonna get the helm of the ship. And now the nets will not break, the boats will not sink like the church is ready, you know? And so and so. I think there's a picture here of Peter's evangelistic calling, which, okay, side note, it's really interesting. This is 153 fish. What's going on with that number, right? Well, I again, I kind of argue make the case every number in John is significant. And I think here there's one other place in the Bible where the number 153 shows up. And it's back in Second Chronicles two verse 17, where King Solomon is like the glory days of Israel. And King Solomon says he took a census to find out all the Gentiles, all the all the non Israelites who were residing in the land. They basically the Gentiles who'd been gathered into the kingdom, right? And the number was 153,000 it's like 150,600 right? 600 right? And similar here, I'd say the 153 fish. It's echoing that one dude, Jesus is like the new greater Solomon. Dude, he's bringing in now, ushering in the glory days of God's kingdom. And there's going to be this miraculous catch, and in gathering of the Gentiles, and the nets won't break, the boat will hold man. So for me, that was like, Whoa, mind blowing, right? But to your original question, what's she just doing here with just doing here? I think he's reinstating Peter's calling. And not only that, he then walks Peter through his biggest failure. And so the next thing Jesus is cooking the fish over a charcoal fire. And there's one other place that that term charcoal fire shows up, and it's earlier in John's gospel, when Jesus is going to be crucified, and Peter is outside, warming his hands by the charcoal fire and denies Jesus three times, right? And so when Peter smells the charcoal fire, that scene like Dude, it's evoking those memories. I think part of what Jesus doing here, it's like I went recently to showing my kids the house I grew up in, and the owners, new owners, happened to be home, and so we stopped out front, and they're like, oh, what's up, you know? Like, hey, I grew up in this house. Oh, do you want to come inside? I'm like, Oh my gosh. So we walk back in, and as I'm walking my kids through each room, it's like, dude, oh, this is where we snuck out or TPD our neighbors. This is where my mom used to cook spaghetti, you know, and all like being in those places, smelling the smells in the yard, the smells, the sights, the location sound. It's evoking all of these memories. And similarly, I think that's what Jesus is doing here. It's like Dude, the catch of fish, the charcoal fire. It's evoking these memories for Peter, of the calling that he thinks he's lost, of the his failure that Jesus is out to redeem and restore, and yet Jesus is walking him back into those memories, not to guilt Him, not to shame him, not to he's walking him back into those painful places redeem and to restore and to bring him into his calling. I think that's what Jesus does in our life. You know, he'll take us back into those hard places. But it's not to shame us are guilty. It's it's to redeem and heal and restore and make us whole
Joshua Johnson:so good. Let's live into this restoration. He's bringing that redeeming, restoring us. It's great. God is on your side. A fantastic book. If you talk to your readers, what hope do you have for this
Joshua Ryan Butler:book? Man, definitely. You know, my biggest hope would be that in our darkest seasons, like when the grenade goes off, your world blows up, we're all gonna have seasons where just stuff hits the fan and it feels like man, God. Where are you in that season that we could lift our eyes to the gospel to Jesus and find man? He is the God who's on our side. He's the creator who's entered on our side of creation to be with us. He's the Savior who stepped onto our side as the guilty ones. You know, he was innocent to fight for us on the cross. And he's the risen and ascended one who's bringing his side of heaven onto our side of Earth, in us and through us. And so my hope for readers would just be that we could gain that greater confidence and go. And even in the hard places, perhaps especially the hard places, God is with you. He's for you, and he's ultimately on your side.
Joshua Johnson:A couple quick questions here at the end, I like to ask one. If you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice
Joshua Ryan Butler:would you give? Oh, man, that's a great question. I think it would be, you don't need to be smart enough or nice enough to be okay with God. You know, I longer story. I go into the book. Part of this last season was realizing, man, how much I, without even knowing it, had learned this is how I belong. If I could be smart enough, be nice enough, I'll belong, have a place in the table. And part of what God's done this last season has been to go, Yeah, your belonging is not based on that. It's based on my love for you, which is independent
Joshua Johnson:of that, anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend,
Joshua Ryan Butler:oh, man, great question, dang man. I'm always reading a ton. I'm trying to think of what's been the best lately. I'm currently reading a guy named Newman, an older guy on like, a development of doctrine, which is great, but it's pretty kind of boring. Actually. I think that's the book I was reading last night. I think most folks probably bored with that. So, yeah,
Joshua Johnson:anything else? Come on, give it. Give me something, uh, something else that you've been reading.
Joshua Ryan Butler:Yeah, definitely. Man, let's see what? So I've been reading, actually, I've been reading a couple books by Mary Carr. So for those you don't know. So this is not a theology or whatever, but she's famous for a memoir, you know. And so I would recently read her book on how to write memoir, not because I'm wanting to write memoir per se, you know, but just it's, it's been really fascinating. Kind of how she processes her own money she's really famous for is going into hard parts of her own story, and yet, processing those with a lot of humility, but also a lot of honesty, and, you know, and that. And so currently reading now her third memoir, lit, you know, which is her life, yeah, which has been really good. So I guess that's been, that's awesome, fun, fun lately, great. Oh, I'll do one more. Actually, I'm sorry. One more, yeah. So my daughter, and we just got back last week, we did a 10 day road trip down to California, and my daughter's 15, she's got her permit, and so she's preparing to drive, you know, she drove the whole trip. She's preparing to get her license. And we did an audio book on the way down there, Unbroken by Laura Hildebrand. It's the story of Louis Zamperini, about 10 years old. I never read it, but I a couple people recommended it. Oh my gosh, it's so good. Like, just the book opens where it's true story. You know, his plane got shot down, 46 days, surviving on a raft in the Atlantic Ocean. So story opens, he's on this raft, underneath the raft, fighting off hundreds of sharks is like a plane overhead. Is like shooting bullets in the water trying to get it's like a survival, resilience story. It was amazing. Yeah, so good. Awesome.
Joshua Johnson:That's a great, great recommendation, Josh, God is on your side. Available anywhere books are sold. It's great. Is there anywhere you'd like to point people to? How can they connect with you? Is there anywhere you'd like them to get the book?
Joshua Ryan Butler:Oh, that's awesome. You know, I'm on Instagram primarily these days. I have a website, Joshua Ryan butler.com, so just my full name, and yeah, it's out there anywhere books are sold. If you want to support Powell's books my local here in my hometown here, they're a good, big one you can order from. But yeah, it's out there wherever books are sold. Awesome.
Joshua Johnson:That's one of the reasons I would want to move to Portland is Palace book. Have you been there before? I have it is amazing. I grew up about three hours north, and, yes, just out of Tacoma. So I, you know, been to Portland many times, and I love it. But Powell's books is one of my favorites.
Joshua Ryan Butler:Yeah, it's like a whole square block, like four stories tall. It's, yeah, it's pretty
Joshua Johnson:amazing. Yeah, it's good. Well, Josh, thank you for letting us know that God is on our side. Thank you for diving deep into the book of John. Let us know some of these Old Testament echoes and these one on one encounters Jesus has with people and in the signs that John has laid out for us. So that points to the death and resurrection of Jesus, that He could now then come and redeem and restore all things, and not just on a macro level, he could do it for us on a micro level as well, and that we could find hope in Him, that He is for us. He is with us always, even if we don't feel it, even if we don't feel his presence, he is still with us, and he's still for us. So thank you, Joshua is fantastic.
Joshua Ryan Butler:Thanks so much, Joshua, great, awesome. Have a great day. You.
