Ep. 349 Peter Greer Returns - How Leaders Lose Their Way

What causes leaders to lose their way? It’s rarely one catastrophic decision, it’s usually the slow drift of small compromises, unaddressed habits, and unchecked desires. In this episode, Peter Greer talks about the hidden currents that pull leaders off course. We explore the dangers of personal and mission drift, the importance of confession and accountability, the tension between culture and structure, and why humility and downward mobility are essential for long-term faithfulness. Peter shares practical tools - from succession planning to building rhythms of transparency - that help leaders prevent drift and finish well.

Peter Greer is the president and CEO of HOPE International, a global Christ-centered nonprofit working to alleviate poverty through entrepreneurship and discipleship in Africa, Asia, Latin America, and Eastern Europe. He is a bestselling coauthor of over 15 books, including Mission Drift, Rooting for Rivals, Lead with Prayer, and How Leaders Lose Their Way. Before joining HOPE, Peter worked internationally in microfinance in Cambodia, Zimbabwe, and Rwanda and holds a graduate degree from Harvard Kennedy School.  While his sports loyalties remain in New England, Peter and his family live in Lancaster, PA.

Peter's Book:

How Leaders Lose Their Way

Peter's Recommendations:

Where the Light Fell

Soul Survivor

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Transcript

Peter Greer: 0:29

We becomes the pronoun more than me in that thinking about who's next, thinking about how can I elevate the voice of others, thinking about man, that's a great invitation, but maybe there's someone who is better served to do that. The more that you push back on that arc that bends inward, I do think is a way, an important way, to really push back against some of the things that trip up too many leaders.

Joshua Johnson: 1:08

Hello and welcome to the shift in culture, podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, leadership drift rarely happens overnight. It happens in small, unexamined places, habits left unchecked, relationships neglected, identity tied too tightly to position or platform. In this episode, I sit down again with Peter Greer, CEO of Hope International, and author of How leaders lose their way to talk about why so many leaders struggle to finish. Well, we dig it into the subtle patterns of personal and mission drift, the role of confession and accountability, the difference between culture and structure and the importance of humility, downward mobility and succession planning. Peter offers not just theory, but practical tools, simple practices that help us recalibrate, prevent drift and keep our leadership aligned with faithfulness over the long haul. This is a conversation for anyone who longs to serve with integrity, lead with transparency, and remain rooted in God's call, even in the messy middle. So join us. Here is my conversation with Peter Greer, well, Peter, welcome back to shifting culture. Excited to have you back on thanks for joining me again.

Peter Greer: 2:27

Thank you for having me looking forward to the conversation I'm excited to get

Joshua Johnson: 2:31

in and dive into how leaders are losing their way. We're going to talk about how and why they're losing their way. You know, you wrote about mission drift in the past. You got a lot of examples from different people and organizations of mission drift, and as you were looking at those, you saw that there was a parallel personal drift that was happening with leaders, and so that's one of the reasons why Mission Drift was happening in your life. Let's go introspective first, and then we'll go into a higher level. What does it look like so in your life and your leadership, have you experienced some personal drift, and what did that look like for you? And maybe, how did you make your way back?

Peter Greer: 3:12

All right, we're just going right in, aren't we? We

Unknown: 3:14

are diving in. We are

Peter Greer: 3:17

it's easier sometimes to see in others than to seeing yourself, isn't it? And actually, that was one of the consistent themes that we found that regularly people that experience significant drift, they thought it would never happen to me, and I can tell you, looking at this issue, studying it, it has only heightened my awareness as that hymn for many years ago, says, Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it, and every single one of us are the seeds for drift. And I think the challenge is that it's easy to see when someone completely loses their way, right? I mean, that's when we see the headlines. That's when we see these significant events. What is far more difficult to spot is to go upstream and to say, where did they initially go off track? And I think that's maybe the answer to your question very directly is, you know, thankfully, I've not had anything that would hit headlines. But the question is, where are the practices, where the habits, where the attitudes go upstream. And I think that's where the interesting piece is, because that is a long list of that. And if anything this kind of writing the book and researching this has done, it said these small issues are not small. And aggregate these small things we might think are no big deal, actually become a very big deal if we leave them unaddressed.

Joshua Johnson: 4:33

So what are some of the things that people usually leave unaddressed? What are these small issues that when we go upstream, that they will lead to something that we don't recognize it at the moment, but later on down the line, you're like, Oh, we found ourselves way off and we didn't realize

Peter Greer: 4:49

it. Yeah. So one of the interesting pieces, so again, we looked at leaders, and we I was always amazed at how many were so kind, so open, handed in sharing their story. And every single one had a simpler theme of, I just wish I could go back. I wish that I could go back, and I would do that differently. I would do that differently. And so one of the specific ones is, for a lot of individuals, they get so busy their work is all encompassing, and the number of people that actually know them is very, very small, even if you have the right form individuals that you truly can be very open handed. I was talking with one. Leader. And he said, I finally am at a point that I have no secrets. I have a friend that knows everything about me. And I thought that is, I don't have that that is wise. But the number of things that truly are like we know in our heart are there, but no one else knows them. The more that we put in that box it's like, the more we are just setting ourselves up for a lot of challenge. So that's one real practical piece, and it changed as a result of doing this work, is to have individuals that there is greater degree of transparency, and hopefully over time, I get to that same spot as my friend, saying, You know what, I am fully known those things that are left unaddressed, that are left unsaid, those are the things that over time, tend to trip us up, just as one very small example,

Joshua Johnson: 6:14

yeah, even with four busy people don't know us. I just talked to one leader who is part of a confessional community, and that's an ongoing normal practice to confess in community with others. And I think one of the reason, even reasons for moral failure. And bigger failure is that we don't make confession normal. It's not normalized. We don't actually say, No, me, how do we start to maybe set something up where people do in a safe environment? We can be vulnerable with with the few. Jesus was really, you know, deep with three, not with all of the 12. He shared more with three than he did with others. He was even deeper with the one, which was the father heaven. So how do we like go into a place where we can have those and people know our secrets we can confess so that we could continue to stay healthy?

Peter Greer: 7:06

Yeah, I think that's a very practical piece. We are not having that safe space. Everyone's going to be surprised right when, if something happens in the future, in that, and oftentimes it's those old friendships. Just in my own life, I have a group of people that know me as Pete. Anyone who knew me through college, they knew me as Pete. Anyone after that, I kind of, I don't know, Peter is what I got known as, and I was with one not that long ago, and he looked at me and he said, Hey, Pete, you're being an idiot.

Joshua Johnson: 7:40

He was right. He was totally right. So

Peter Greer: 7:43

having those individuals that you're doing life with, and that takes years. Those types of friendships are not formed in a moment. Those types of friendships take years, and so maybe a real simple practice would be to say, look at your calendar, and what are the frequency that you were having those times to connect. At this point, I have that particular individual. We're on a calendar where once a month we're getting together and we're going for a walk. Another individual. Every Friday morning, we are starting our day together. We are praying together. And it was like believing that this matters was finally reflected on my calendar, and we got to bring those two things together, what we say matters to us, and then making sure that there actually is time and space set apart. So again, this is like high level, simple stuff, but what we found is leaders who lost their way. It's not because they didn't know. It's because they didn't do and so how can we bring those two things together

Joshua Johnson: 8:40

as the intentionality of the thing that we need over and over again, and we need to be intentional to continue to stay on track, one of the things in this isolation moment that we have with leaders, and I see a lot of up and coming leaders, the younger leaders. Leaders want to share leadership. They don't want to be the solo heroic leader in the church, in nonprofits, in business. What have you found as you looked at shared leadership? Is there a difference between leaders who lose their way and they don't if leadership is shared, and it's not just on one.

Peter Greer: 9:16

Yeah. So one of the pieces that was just, again, really sobering to me, to realize, is to say so much of this is like upstream in attitudes and thoughts like that's where it starts. And I think one of the attitudes and thoughts is that I am what I do, that this identity that I have because of the work that I do, or the platform that I have, or the way that I speak like that, is my identity. And the more that you say that, then all these other issues that we're just talking about, let's downplay them. Let's push them aside. Let's put them in the box. And that is not a healthy thing. So I would imagine that that's sort of a shared leadership to say no, there's a group of people that are doing it. We becomes the pronoun more than me in that thinking about who's next, thinking about how can I elevate the voice of others, thinking about man, that's a great invitation, but maybe there's someone who is better served to do that. The more that you push back on that arc that bends inward, I do think is a way, an important way, to really push back against some of the things that trip up too many leaders.

Joshua Johnson: 10:26

Martin Luther talked about the inward arc as. Sin. And he talked about that is what sin looks like. Is an inward arc. And so what does that then like? Empowering leadership look like to give away some things. And it's not really just about power and control, just about us, but it is something of more of hey, an inspiration, empowering to people so that they can actually run with what God has given them as well.

Peter Greer: 10:57

There's a lot of books that are written by some amazing theologians. There's a lot of incredible thought that is out there. I'm a practitioner. I want to know, how do I how do I actually put this into practice in my life so I don't lose my way? Like, what do we actually do about it? And one of the things that we found again and again is that leaders that actually did have that long term faithfulness, that succession planning was something that they regularly thought about and acted upon. And I think that is one of the checks of our heart, a real simple practice that I did was to actually write my resignation letter. And that was powerful. Like you don't realize quite so much about how much of your identity slowly is intertwined. Writing that letter, putting it, I mean, I've got it, and then remembering that today, I'm one day closer to sending that letter than I was yesterday. That is going to happen. It's a question of not if, but when I step aside. And you know what that does? It clarifies that there are things that are going to be true the day after I send that letter. There are things that are going to be true about other ways of who I am that are not necessarily just this work that I do. And we found that leaders that had that ability to long term faithfulness, they just held pretty loosely onto what they did and held pretty tightly to whose they are, and that has real implications for how we lead and how we go about our work.

Joshua Johnson: 12:26

I mean, even as I was reading the foreword here, but Chris horse was talking about how, you know, as he moved away from Hope International, he moved into a new season that he felt like God was calling him when the email started to go away and his inbox wasn't very full. It was an identity crisis, right? It was a who really, am I? Am I the person that you know wants this full inbox because, you know, there's some status in there. Or am I somebody who a God is calling me and I'm a child of God, I'm somebody that I find my identity somewhere else. How do you navigate identity issues for you and your leadership, where, knowing that you've done incredible things, people look at you like you're the CEO of Hope International, like that's an identity marker in your own life. How do you not make that your entire identity? How do you find it somewhere else?

Peter Greer: 13:23

So one of the other pieces is I write about topics that are of interest to me, that I do not claim to be an expert in I'm on this journey trying to figure this out. I want to hear from you how you do it on that. But I think one of the practices again that we heard again and again, it was interesting to hear just there were certain themes that came up again and again and again, and one of the themes that came up again and again is there's something about downward mobility and service as a way to check our own heart and our own identity, and if we ever start buying into the lie, well, that task. I mean, other people should do that. That's not my that we wouldn't say this maybe quite so directly, but that is a little bit below me. That's not the way of Jesus, and that is not the way to long term longevity in leadership. And so we have a phrase we talk about a clean a latrine. There's something really powerful when something needs to be done. Are you the one who looks to others? Are you the one who rolls up your sleeves and figures out what it looks like to serve. And again, I think this is the incredible upside down way of thinking about power that is modeled by Jesus. He literally did the task that no one else could even be forced to do, of taking that posture of washing feet. And I think that doesn't translate culturally in the same way today as it did back then, but the principle absolutely does, what are those things that we can do? And I think the more that we do that the title goes away and is replaced by, I want to be someone who's known for loving and serving others, and that is more important than the official title that I have in my job. So there's something about downward mobility. There's something about willingness to serve. There's something about cleaning of latrine that helps disaggregate role from who we are as individuals, and hopefully we're individuals that are known being willing to follow in that example.

Joshua Johnson: 15:26

Yes, the example is fantastic. I've. Seen people who do that that their heart posture is still like I am the title. I'm just doing this so that I could put you on my shoulders and elevate you a little bit, but it's really about me still. How do we make sure that our heart is in the right spot, even while serving? And it's not about doing it because I want you to see how good of a leader I am, or that I want you to look and say, Oh, you're so humble, but it is a true, humble heart posture like it is, because that is a check, right? It's a check for me. It's like, Hey, I just want you to see how humble I am,

Peter Greer: 16:11

best at being humble? You're so good at it? No, I think this is where real, practically, Jesus gave some things. And in that context, if you're doing generosity, hey, let's make sure that it's not for all to see you're fasting. Let's make sure that you're not putting on a show. And so I would say today, in the world that we live in, perhaps some of it is, when was the last time you did something and no one knew about it, and if you can't remember, or if you want to see the good deeds, and it's real easy for you and everyone else to see them, maybe, Just maybe that might be an indication that it is the show as opposed to the heart behind it. So just as one real simple check, there's something powerful when we something with intentionality that is just no big deal people. It's just not known, done in secret. I think there's real benefit to that.

Joshua Johnson: 17:08

Let's talk about culture versus structure. Sometimes we feel like, hey, if we have the right structure, like our leadership is going to be okay, but our culture is off a little bit. Sometimes, if we like our our structure may be off, we don't know, but if we have the right culture, sometimes we could still flow and be on on track and still be intentional and not have this personal drift in our lives. How do we set up a culture that really is about empowering, good leadership, that there's some accountability? It's not a solo show all around that culture is there, and it's not just policies and structure, because sometimes you could fib that you could move in that and not sturdy, strong character.

Peter Greer: 18:59

Yeah, and I would probably say those two fit together much more of not one leads to two, but much more of they both reinforce each other. You've got all the right policies in place, and then you've got a leadership team that actually doesn't follow it those policies. It doesn't matter at all, right? That's going to road. And similarly, you got a team that does it, but you're trying to scale an organization, and you don't have the policies that's not going to work in that, and everything's going to feel like an exception or a one off. And you actually can't scale without those systems. So I think they go together, and I think it is a healthy thing for a leadership team to say, Are we are we living this out? We do surveys every year, and I can tell you, there is one question that I value the feedback more than any other, and it is basically, can we trust leadership? Is there integrity in what they say and what they do, or are there tons of exceptions? And if you're at this level, the normal rules don't apply to you. That always gets individuals into trouble. So I think of as the reinforcement. Let's create great policies for team members to flourish. Let's create a great system, and let's make sure that we're living it out in the best way possible, and if anything, leadership should be held to a higher standard of actually being fully implementing the type of culture. So at our team here, we have our culture identified, and we've got these elements of what we say we're going to do. And it is a good thing periodically to ask the team, are we actually living it out? Is there integrity? Is there alignment between what we say and what we do? And I think for all of us, the answer is not perfectly yet. Let's keep working at it. That is certainly the case with us here,

Joshua Johnson: 20:48

as you're scaling an organization, when I'm looking at a book like yours, how leaders lose their way, my first go to are top level leaders, but an organization like yours, you have lots of different leaders, and the organization can drift really easily when leaders at any level and any place, especially a multinational organization, you know, in different areas, it could start to drift apart. What is cohesion as you scale with culture and structure policies in place with the right leadership, what are some of the practices for the entire. Organization as people are leading in their own areas.

Peter Greer: 21:35

Yeah, and we intentionally leadership is broadly defined, and it's the principles are applicable to all of us on the journey for certain in that. And you know, in the work that we do at Hope International, we've seen we have a staff in lots of different countries. And the reality is, there's a significant impact. Doesn't really matter what layer of leadership, there is a significant impact when a leader loses his or her way. And I think the principle is for all of us to say, what are we doing? And the analogy that we build on, and it started in mission, drift, is basically like there's currents, right? And if you stop doing the rowing, if you stop doing the work, you're going to drift to a place that is not where you want to be. You will not get to a place in any aspect of your life just by drifting there. So the question is, are you doing the work. Do you know the destination, and are you rowing in that direction against the currents that we find ourselves in? And that is true regardless of where you are in an org chart, regardless of context or geography. Let's identify, what does it look like to have a life of long term faithfulness? Let's identify where we're going. And then let's ask the questions, and am I on track or no? Better question, where do I need to recalibrate? Where do I need to change direction? Where do I need to refocus? Those are good questions for those who want to be marked by long term faithfulness.

Joshua Johnson: 23:07

So as we are faithful and we're rowing, but then we get into the middle. We get into the messy middle, the middle of the ocean, where we know our destination, but we can't see it right now. We can't see where we came from. We don't know. All we see is this messy water in the middle, and we're rowing. We're trying to be faithful. So what is recalibration and saying, Hey, we've gone off course look like when you can't see the destination ahead, what faithfulness in the messy middle look like for leaders.

Peter Greer: 23:40

Yeah, and maybe this is little too somber, but one of the most profound experiences of my life was being in the hospital room when my grandfather went from this life to the next, and watching the reaction of my grandmother, who just, I mean, she threw herself on him, and watching his kids and his grandkids all around him, it was one of the most profound moments of My life. And everyone in that room knew that was a life that was lived well and and I think for all of us, there is a level of clarity that comes when we remember there is a day that we too will be and what do we want to be true at that moment? And so even if you can't see the specifics of where you're going, I think we all, with a piece of paper and a pen, could jot down a few things that we would want to be true at that moment, and maybe that might help us calibrate or set the direction of our lives. What would it look like in that moment for those around us to say that was a life well lived. And my grandfather gave me that gift, an extraordinary gift. He gave us that picture, and would love nothing more than for that to be true of my life, that moment as well.

Joshua Johnson: 25:02

That's beautiful, that's long term faithfulness. What does it look like for a life well lived? And so it's just yeah, putting that one foot in front of another, knowing where you're headed, long term, knowing who you are, who's who are, and where you're going and your purpose, which is really helpful. Let's get into a case study. Tell me a story of some leaders that you've talked to where they found some personal drift, like they went off course. What did it look like, and what was happening. And then we'll get into some ways, maybe, if we look back, where did it go off and how we could stop that now for us,

Peter Greer: 25:40

yeah, and again, so enormously grateful for those that shared candidly and vulnerably with us, and then we match that with some of the well known stories. Again, not trying to do investigative journalism by any means, but just trying to understand it would be foolish not to learn from some of the lessons of recent years. And I hope we got that balance right. But one of the things that we heard again and again we already mentioned, it is the individuals that said, Well, that would never happen to me, or would hear stories of others and say, Well, that could never happen to me. That is a very that should be a blinking red light, danger, danger, danger. So that's one is like, understand, we could all make a mess of things. We could all make decisions that would not love or honor or cherish the people and the organizations that we can. Care deeply about. So that was one consistent theme. Another consistent theme is that we've already talked about this too, but relationships, there was no one that really knew them. And as shocking as it was for individuals to come to this realization, what was almost more difficult was to hear from other individuals who were in their life who said, too, I never saw this. I I'm a shocked. I can't believe that this happened. Number three, consistently, we heard that individuals had long before lost any sense of a personal, vibrant prayer life. Decisions would have been made differently if they paused and prayed about it. I guarantee you, is this a good idea or not just you probably don't need too long in prayer. You probably pretty quickly you're gonna that's probably not a good idea. So there were these consistent themes that we heard again and again, and then the other piece that I am so grateful for that almost every single one said, and there was relief when it was finally discovered when whatever it was, it was eating me up in the inside. I knew it, and no one else. And healing required greater awareness, and you can't heal when things are still stuffed so deeply inside. And so it led to a lot of healing. Led to a lot of grace upon grace, even as there were very real impact and consequences for people in organizations as well.

Joshua Johnson: 27:56

I know a lot of leaders that leading organizations that if there is anything wrong in the organization, they want to keep it silent. They don't want anyone to know about what is wrong in the organization. They just want to keep face. What is the balance? Then to say, hey, we have this going on, and it's not right, and we need to take care of it. Or, you know, what's the balance in leadership, to figure out when we share, when we don't share, what is public? What's private? Do we have a balance? Do we know what it is.

Peter Greer: 28:34

Did I mention that I'm a practitioner trying to figure this out in my own life? I mean, those are complicated conversations, right? Especially when it's with people and within the organization that is complicated in that but what I find less complicated, they have the ability to share when I've gotten it wrong, I have the ability to say, Hey, I responded in this way and that wasn't honoring you, and I'm really sorry. To own your issues, to own where you have gotten it wrong, and to demonstrate within a workplace, no perfection. Here we are all on the journey and to celebrate, especially if it is someone within the organization that helped you see that you were on your way down a path that does not go to where you want it to go, celebrate courage, to appreciate those who have done it. And so I think maybe that takes it away from within the organization. It's just not going to be appropriate to deal with every issue in a context, but it is appropriate to own your stuff, to admit when you've gotten off track, and to again, just say this is a place we're on the journey together, and let's keep helping each other grow closer to Christ and closer to each other.

Joshua Johnson: 29:50

Yeah, I'm gonna dive a little deeper into that, because I've seen some places where when a leader at a certain level does something they shouldn't be doing, and they've had some personal drift, they get removed from a position, and the upper level leadership is like, we're not going to tell You why, but they just didn't do anything right? I've found that sometimes that erodes some trust in the organization that they don't know. And they because they actually then think that there's rumors going around. They think it's worse than it actually is. It's not as bad as as they they think it is. And so then there's like, Oh, it's just it feels like a mess to me when something like that happens. What we do as leaders to actually keep the trust of our people, to make sure that confidences can be confident like we could not share everything, but we can still hold trust of people in our organization.

Peter Greer: 30:56

That's big question, and above my pay grade, but I will say a couple of things in response. One is this, to me, is part of the motivation of elevating this conversation, because the impact is so real and so severe that, have we done everything possible to prevent that? Because those issues that you just raised, some of them, there's no way around it. It will erode trust. It will hurt people. And so the question is, we spend so much time after there's something like this, how much time was spent prevent? Ending it in the first place, and my experience is there's too little spent upstream from this, and so we're dealing with these really complex situations when maybe some of them could have been addressed a long time ago in a very different way. So oh, I just I truly long for more organizations to take prevention more seriously than they are right now. How can we protect our teammates? How can we make sure that the right pieces are in place that just will save you so much heartache down the road? But then, when there is a situation like that, I would say it's understanding that there are different layers of conversation. So just one example, there are certain things. We have global staff meeting, and it's with the entire team. We also have all managers at a different team. We have an executive leadership team that happens, and we have a board of directors and to have a level of mapping of conversation, what is the message that is most important for that group? And you're going to have different abilities to communicate different things based on that, and then match that with a posture of and if you have any questions, we would love to have a conversation with you, to have that openness, to have that willingness to share what it is that you can share, but that's going to be different in a one on one conversation than perhaps when it's the global team that's being gathered appropriately that's going to be a little bit different on that so prevention matters more. Let's prevent these stories, prevent those conversations, but then let's figure out within an organization and have a level of intentionality in the right message for the right audience, thoughtfully and prayerfully considered.

Joshua Johnson: 33:20

I think mapping those conversations that's really helpful for us, like, what's the right thing for the right level right people have those conversations and actually to map it out. And that's great. So then if we were looking at prevention, and we're going upstream, let's say I'm starting an organization or starting a business, and I want to then map out some healthy organizational practices to set in place for me as a leader, and then for my leaders coming into the organization, how do I start? How do we get organizational health from the very beginning so that we can prevent these things from happening? Okay, you

Peter Greer: 33:59

have asked some great questions. Can we have a conversation before or work on any future projects? This is really, really helpful. I've been talking too much. How do you do that? How have you put this into practice? That's not allowed. I sincerely want to know, how do you do this? I mean, that's the question for all of us. You're creating your organization. What would you put in place?

Joshua Johnson: 34:26

I would, I would first put into place a team. If I'm starting an organization, I'm the main leader. So I'd put together a team around me where I could be open, honest, vulnerable, accountable to people that would be the first step to be able to put into place. One would have, then also people that would hold me accountable to prayer and to say, is this a good idea from Joshua, or is this a god idea? Because I think prayer is crucial, and it's something as an apostolically leaning person that's not my default. I know what it is, and I know that it's important, and I do it. It's just not my default. So I need some people to hold me accountable to prayer and to be on a prayer team. And I think those two things at the very beginning, it's going to put me on to a path where then I could create, what are our values that we want to hold to, what, you know, those sorts of culture, type of things, that then we have people to hold accountable as we then scale and grow. So that's just the first two things that I would do to make sure that I am set up for success later on.

Peter Greer: 35:42

So good. And again, my belief is that if anyone were to truly take 30 minutes and to think about these questions, I think there'd be some similar themes, right? But then you match that with how many people have actually done it? And there's this huge gap just one simple thing, succession planning. Everyone would say that's important to be investing in the future leaders. How many organizations actually have a succession plan? 17% like huge gap between what we say we would do or what we believe is important, and then what we actually have done. And so I just again, the whole project is, let's just bring those two together. We know what to do. Let's just do it. And the fascinating case study that we kind of anchor some of this on is King Solomon. King Solomon penned so many unbelievable Proverbs, and then you look at his life, and it's like Solomon you knew just didn't do. And to me, that is just, that's not just a King Solomon issue. That's my issue too. I know more than I do. So we're just trying to bring those two a little bit together with some specific ways of planning, some specific tools that maybe we haven't thought about. But I thought those two, what great starting points, what powerful starting points. How many issues would be addressed if we just did those two that you just articulated?

Joshua Johnson: 37:07

Yeah, we're so prone to ego and to current like, we're going to move into currents. This is what Solomon did, you know at the end, this is what you said, and you laid out a whole bunch of things that he pursued his his ultimate desires on the inside that he didn't really maybe even want, and at the end of his life, he's like, Well, this was all meaningless like it didn't. It was vanity. It was nothing right. Help us and tell us what are some of these desires that he started to pursue, that he ended realizing were not the real thing. Were not not the main thing. They were meaningless.

Unknown: 37:48

Solomon gives us a long list

Peter Greer: 37:53

of those things. And again, talk about nothing new under the sun. You look at the same ones. I mean, he pursued wealth, he went after it, and there was no one like him in terms of what he would what he amassed. And Queen of Sheba, she's like, it wasn't even all the things that I've been told. It's even more of that he had to build. He was like early into the Self Storage business, except he had to build like cities to hold his stuff. Of that he he had so much more. And then you look at his life and relationships, he was so poor in relationships. And that is a trade that we make today too, isn't it? Let me just get a little more. Let me go after that. And yet we under invest in relationships, and that is a terrible trade. It was a terrible trade for King Solomon and a terrible trade for us today. So that is one of the it's again, nothing new money, sex and power. How many of us, like those are issues that just pull us away. And Solomon had copious amounts of all three, and it did not do it for him, and it does not do it for us as well. So, yeah, I mean, how many of us? I mean, the real tragedy for me are those that you know, even we read Scripture and we read the account of King Solomon, and we're like, wow, that was really unwise. From the wisest person that ever he made some really unwise decisions without ever pausing to say, and where am I making those similar decisions, similar compromises, similar good things that we are creating as ultimate things, mis ordering our loves in the pursuit of them. And again, that is not an ancient story. That is a today's story as well.

Joshua Johnson: 40:26

Rene Girard talks about mimetic desire, that whatever the leader is going to pursue and their desire is what the people around them will want to desire and pursue as well. And so that, again, tells me, if I'm going to lead my desires, better be aligned, right? I better be pursuing God above else. If not, then, you know, everybody else is going to be desiring what's what I'm desiring, and it's just going to be infighting, and it's not going to be healthy whatsoever. So that's really important to align our desires correctly to God. You know, one of the practices I love, you know, after your first chapter there is you talk about writing your own eulogy. It's you're thinking about finishing, well, what you would like at the end of your life? As you look back a couple of things from your own eulogy, what would you like to be known for at the end of your life. You don't have to give me everything, because that is yours, but just give me a couple of things that would be in your eulogy. Yeah.

Peter Greer: 41:27

I mean, if there's multiple people that have talked about this, but for me, it was the David Brooks, right? The difference between the eulogy virtues and the resume virtues. And so much of our life we think about the resume without actually realizing there is a different thing that matters and is elevated in a eulogy. And so it was a Saturday morning, and I was writing that my eulogy, and my wife came down, and I'm like getting teary, and she asks, What are you doing? And I said, I'm writing my eulogy. And she got very concerned. I should have given more context for that particular moment, but it was so powerful. And again, this is maybe a little bit unusual, but it's on my calendar and I read it every on my birthday, it pops up on my calendar every year I read it. What a great way to start your birthday, right? I. It is actually because it clarifies what matters and no surprise, right? It talks about the relationships. I talk about my wife and my kids, and I talk about the one that I serve. I talk about my faith and what I hope is true that will be said about the way that I lived in it. So no surprise, right? Love God, Love your neighbor and love those that are closest to you. I hope that that will be true in the way that my life is described.

Joshua Johnson: 42:44

Isn't that interesting, like, it's it's all about this pursuit. Like, you know, if I look at my life, I've had so many desires to have major impact in this world, and at the end of the day, it's like, who am I loving? The people closest to me, what is my relationship like with them? Like, it's really at the end of the day, the rest of it, I think it matters. I hope it matters that I could actually do some good in this world and help SEE the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. Like, I really hope that I can do that by the end. It's like, who are the ones closest to you and and how have you loved? And how have you been loved? Like, that's it's just like, that's it for my life. Like, yeah,

Peter Greer: 43:35

totally. And there's meaning and there's importance in the work that we do, for certain, but your number of podcast subscribers is not going to be what is included, right? I mean, there's something that's going to matter much more than that, even as we go and we do this good and meaningful work without placing it in a place of ultimate importance.

Joshua Johnson: 44:00

Well, I mean, we've, you've hit on this a couple of times and but I think one of the things so as we're thinking about ending well, and eulogies, and you've talked about succession planning, that only 17% organizations have a succession plan in place. Again, as you know, you've seen Jim Collins, right and others right, that organizations after their founder, they fail usually, and they don't actually succeed. So succession is really important, but we don't do it really well. So how do we start to plan these to be healthy with succession? I think this is kind of important topic for people to think about what is next? What are you leaving? What is your legacy? How do we pass on leadership to the next generation?

Peter Greer: 44:45

That is the question. And you know, when we wrote the book mission drift, I think we missed that aspect actually in it, that we didn't talk as specifically as there will always be mission drift when one leadership team transitions to the next, if there is not a significant amount, not just of the know how, not just of the technical aspects of leading or the product or service, but actually the heart behind it. And so one individual West Stafford, he says that the mission of an organization, is never more vulnerable than during a time of transition, like that's a moment that really matters. And if that's the moment that you're starting to think about that question, it is too late on that that has to happen a long time before. And so I think that there is an under investment in thinking about this topic. And again, you mentioned Jim Collins in his book, how the mighty fall. He talks about step number one of how organizations decline is hubris born of success. And I think that element of when you're successful, you're thinking about, well, look at what's happening under my leadership. Look who's happening under our leadership team, and it takes a posture of humility to actually think beyond yourself and to say, Great, that's wonderful, but there is no success without that effective passing of the baton. And again, not just for the technical piece, but the heart behind what it is that you are doing. And so I think those are some of the reasons. So again, upstream from this issue is a hard posture of, is it about me, or is it something bigger that we're going after? Is it if the what you're going after can be achieved in your tenure, in your time, then you need to think about this. But if you're trying to do something bigger, longer lasting. You have to think about the next set of leaders and passing on the baton. And that's not just at one level of an organization. That is throughout an organization that this really matters.

Joshua Johnson: 46:49

So if you talk to people who pick up the book how leaders lose their way, what would you hope that they would get from this? What do you hope that this gives to the world?

Peter Greer: 46:57

I truly hope that people take this seriously, like before you are at a place like now, what can we do? And then the practical tools, hopefully everything in there is not just an idea, but then a practice. So that's kind of the way. That we structure the book is each one has an issue, and then there is a practice, and then there is a prayer, and our friend Ryan school wrote the prayers at the end of each chapter. But really, I would hope more than anything else, that this is not just a book to read, but this is something that we can put into practice so that more of us finish well. And again, that sobering statistic, there was a study that found in Scripture, only one in three leaders finish well, meaning they didn't abuse their power and privilege in a significant way. And the author of that says, and the stats are probably similar today, one out of three finish well. And I say like, that's not okay. I think of my friends, we want to go three for three that. So what can we do? So I would hope that there is a practical application of these principles, and hopefully it's equipping more to be known for that. Again, Eugene Peterson writes that long obedience in the same direction.

Joshua Johnson: 48:19

Amen. Thank you for bringing it practicals, as you said earlier, you have lots of knowledge. You know a lot of things. Solomon had a lot of knowledge. He was the wisest man on earth. But it was the practical working out, the daily practices of what it looks like to be intentional, to stay on track to say, God, this is faithfulness to you. Make my heart humble and contrite so that I could follow God in our leadership and what we're doing. So this is fantastic. So thank you, Peter, that is great. You know, I'd love to get a couple of recommendations from you. So anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend.

Peter Greer: 48:57

Oh, well, I've been reading and watching a lot about how leaders lose their way that I wouldn't recommend at this point. Too much, too too much of that. I mean, then reading, I just so appreciate Philip Yancey. Two of the most recent books have been ones that he wrote and his, yeah, his autobiography, fascinating, fascinating. And then he also does this case study of 13 people that impacted his faith. That is just terrific as well. So the recent writing of Philip Yancey, I've rediscovered and really enjoyed that. That's what I've been enjoying recently.

Joshua Johnson: 49:38

Great. Well, Peter, thank you for for diving deep right away in this conversation and going and saying, What does it look like to go upstream to know that we could prevent some of this personal drift, this leadership failing that we have seen around the world at the moment, and that we could say we could be faithful to God and our leadership, our culture, our values and where we're headed, so that we don't actually have this drift. And we thank you for telling us that. Hey, most people say that's never gonna happen to me, we don't realize it, but hey, there is something that we could do about it, and there are some practical steps that we could take so that this doesn't happen to us, and say none of us are immune, and that we all have to put these things into practice. So thank you, Peter, it was fantastic conversation.

Peter Greer: 50:27

Great to be with you. Thanks so much.

Unknown: 50:39

You.