Ep. 360 Mark Batterson - Your God-Sized Dreams Happen Gradually, Then Suddenly

Pastor and author Mark Batterson joins me to talk about his new book Gradually, Then Suddenly, a powerful invitation to dream God-sized dreams, start small, and stay faithful long enough to see legacy take root. We explore what it means to move from imagination to action, how to live with long vision and long obedience, and why true success often looks like quiet persistence over time. Mark shares stories of transformation from Washington, D.C., turning a crack house into a coffeehouse, a dream into a citywide ministry, and faith into a generational story. This conversation reminds us that what looks like slow progress may actually be sacred preparation. Join us for an inspiring look at how to live, lead, and love with purpose over the long haul.

Mark Batterson is the New York Times bestselling author of two dozen adult and children’s books including Win the Day, Chase the Lion and A Million Little Miracles. His newest book is Gradually Then Suddenly, How to Dream Bigger, Decide Better, and Leave a Lasting Legacy (Multnomah; on sale 11/4/25).  He’s also the lead pastor of National Community Church in Washington, D.C. One church with multiple campuses, NCC owns and operates Ebenezers Coffeehouse, the DC Dream Center and the Capital Turnaround—a 100,000-square-foot city block that includes an event venue and child development center. Mark holds a doctor of ministry degree from Regent University. He and his wife, Lora, reside on Capitol Hill. For more information, visit markbatterson.com and https://twitter.com/markbatterson & Instagram.com/markbatterson 

Mark's Book:

Gradually, Then Suddenly

Mark's Recommendation:

The River of Doubt

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com

Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.

Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTube

Consider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below

Contact me to advertise: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com

Transcript

Mark Batterson: 0:29

Come on, let's live our lives in a way that's worth telling stories about. Let's go after a dream that's destined to fail without divine intervention.

Joshua Johnson: 0:51

Hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, you know, some things grow slowly, their roots deepening beneath the surface, long before anyone notices the fruit. In this episode, I talk with pastor and author Mark Batterson about his new book, gradually, then suddenly, a call to dream big, start small and stay faithful long enough to see a legacy take root. We talk about the beauty of long obedience, how imagination is part of the image of God, and why every overnight success is really 20 years in the making. Mark shares stories from his journey as a pastor in Washington, DC, turning a crack house into a coffee house, a dream into a city wide ministry and faith into a generational vision. Together, we explore how to live in the tension between God's timing and our efforts, how to hold a long view of transformation and how to live a life worth telling stories about. Join us as we learn to dream god sized dreams, practice patient faith and play the long game of love and legacy. Here is my conversation with Mark Batterson Mark, welcome to shifting culture. So excited to have you on thanks for joining me.

Mark Batterson: 2:11

Hey, it's a joy and privilege. Thank you. Yeah, we're going

Joshua Johnson: 2:14

to talk about gradually, then suddenly, your new book. And then one of the things you talk about there is long vision and long obedience equals a long legacy. So I want to go back all the way back into your high school days, basketball playing days, as you were at the free throw line, you were squinting, and your basketball coach said, Hey, I think you might have some vision problems. And so we talked about some vision, but I want to know, I know that coaches have instilled vision in me that have stuck with me long term. What did you learn on the court that has stuck with you, that has provided some vision for you long term.

Mark Batterson: 2:53

Wow, I love that question. Why not start on the court? And I have to make a confession, Joshua my my nickname in college was the black hole, because if you pass me the ball, you weren't getting getting it back. I never saw a shot. I didn't, I didn't like, I like shooting the basketball. But I think one of the things you learn is you're only as good as the players around you. The whole is more than the sum of the parts, and I think that's just true in life, like it is not a solo sport. So when you're on the court, like it's everybody, you know, blood, sweat and tears towards that common goal, and how to be a good teammate, and then how to face failure or a loss and pick yourself back up and figure out how to practice harder and smarter. And so I, you know, it's crazy. I mean, I think most of the life lessons that have translated into both as a writer and a pastor really come from the locker room, from the court, from the practice field.

Joshua Johnson: 4:01

Yeah, it's true. And I found that in my own life as a player, as a coach, just walking through life you're there's so many great discipleship lessons, and what does it look like to live well, you know you have your dream hat on. You got your dream collective hoodie on. It's all about the dream. So if we have dreams in our life, and you love to both have God sized dreams, but then help others find their god sized dreams as well. When did that shift happen for you, that you realized that you were somebody that can instill some god sized dreams into people, help people imagine what God is doing and where he's going and how to join him and what he's doing on this earth.

Mark Batterson: 4:44

Wow. I think you know all of us, all of us are dreamers in the sense that imagination is part of the imago day. So I think, you know, any little kid stick is a light saber, and if they're even out shooting hoops, since we're on the on the basketball theme, you know, you're shooting with, you know, time running out for the to win a championship, like it's imagination, or this ability to envision the future is so unique to us. You know, squirrels may hoard acorns for the winter, but they don't moonshot rockets. They don't build skyscrapers. Like humankind is unique. And of course, everything is created twice and maybe. Will come back to that idea, because it's a it's a key theme. But I've always been someone that just, I really enjoy dreaming or imagining, whether it's architecture. And you know, we've taken, we have about seven properties that are old, properties that we have demoed and renovated, and so whether it's using imagination there, or telling stories to my kids before bed or or even dreaming up a new book, there's just something about I really enjoy the process of dreaming into the future, but it takes teamwork to make the dream work, which is an overused phrase, but it's absolutely true, like you can, you know, as a coach, so What? What? What sport Have you coached? Joshua?

Joshua Johnson: 6:20

Coach, well, I coach college basketball, so I coach basketball, and then, you know, and then junior high to coach baseball and volleyball. So you

Mark Batterson: 6:29

know, you're you. You need that whole team to be on the same page. And so the dream is winning a championship, but then every player kind of has to internalize it. So I don't know, I think, yeah, the importance of dream show, show me the size of your dream. I'll show you the size of your God. It's a stewardship issue. So I think it's always been something that that is a little bit innate to me. The challenge is most of us kind of lose that ability to dream. We just get caught up in the 24/7 cycle of

Joshua Johnson: 7:04

life. Yeah. So let's get get into some people who really may be at the beginning stages of dream. So to produce a long vision that will take so much obedience and faithfulness over time that will then have a legacy that's beyond you. So let's go to the beginning. How do we actually then move from the imagination stage into the like? Let's get it on paper stage and start to walk it out. What does that look like? That shift from imagination to actually the start of something? Yeah.

Mark Batterson: 7:42

Well, first of all, if we do little things like they're big things, God will do big things like their little things. So don't despise the day of small beginnings. Let's get painfully practical. I write a little bit about this idea of grand gestures that you have to do something well, I'll give an example. I felt called to write books when I was 22 but I didn't write a book until I was 35 and so that was 13 years of a dream deferred. It wasn't until I leveraged my 35th birthday and turned it into a deadline. In other words, I'm not going to turn 35 without having a book to show for it. And I made that decision Joshua like 40 days out, so that did not leave much time, but, but it's kind of as simple as you know, when I ran a marathon years ago, it was just going on the Chicago Marathon website and actually paying a couple 100 bucks to register for it. And once you do that, well, then now, now we're in and you know, even when I cast vision for us launching a second campus. Many, many, many years ago, I remember it's about going public and and in a message, I cast that vision. And it was kind of like, all right, there's no turning back now. So it's almost like you have to back yourself into a little bit of a corner. And so grand gestures come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. I mean, Jim Carrey wrote himself a check for $10 million and in the memo, post dated it 10 years out. And sure enough, that grand gesture came true with a couple of movies, I think, one of them being dumb and dumber. So you're saying there's a chance? Yes, I am.

Joshua Johnson: 9:31

That's good. There is a there is a chance, since we're going there, you know, a lot of this, this vision into reality, I'm just take the story of Abraham. You know, God's telling him a through your family, there's going to be descendants, more than you could count, and there will be the seed. So Jesus comes through the genealogy the family of Abraham and Jesus then, hey, we get, we get everything right? Yeah, death, reconciliation, redemption, renewal, of all things. It's, it's amazing, but from him, but all he saw was his family, and it took a long time for him to even get a son and be obedient, yep, and he died before anything was possible. How do we, like, know, like, Hey, this is a God given dream. This is something that God promised he's going to do in my life. And we continue to walk it out. And it's. Not just for us, it could be for generations to come. But how do we how do we walk that out? What give us some some things. How does the story of Abraham help us out to think long term? Well,

Mark Batterson: 10:42

I I kind of employ what I call the crazy test, that it's got to be crazy enough for God to be in it, and I'm having a little bit of fun with that, but by definition, a god sized dream is going to be beyond your ability, beyond your education and beyond your resources. In other words, you can't do it. It's going to necessitate some divine intervention. So come on, let's live our lives in a way that's worth telling stories about. Let's go after a dream that's destined to fail without divine intervention. So I think it has to be kind of crazy enough, big enough, and and, you know, a couple named Abraham and Sarah having a baby at 190 respectively, is pretty crazy, so it requires some divine intervention. So I tend to look at things like, instead of just doing things that are kind of on the outskirts of my human ability, sign me up for something that is a little bit more impossible than that. And I think you have to be careful, because generally speaking, there's going to be a compound interest. So, you know, when I first started dreaming of writing books, I thought, man, what if I could write a book that would sell a million copies. And, you know, just kind of that would be amazing. And, well, first book sold 3641 copies, okay, so like reality check. But then that six book, the circle maker, not only sold a million. I think we're at three plus and and so it's it's this, it's where legacy comes into play. I think that we tend to overestimate what we can do in a year or two, underestimate what God can do in 10 or 20 legacy is not what you accomplish. Legacy is what others accomplish because of you. And so that's where I think, if a dream is selfish in nature, I honestly think it always short circuits, like it just it loses, it loses something. But if I have a dream that kind of like John the Baptist, I must become less, and you must become more. When it's not about your ego or paycheck, but it's this intrinsic man. I really want to use the gift I have to glorify God. Then Then God has this way of taking five loaves, two fish, and turning it into a miracle for 5000 people. So there's, there's something in that equation that I think maybe answers the question you're asking.

Joshua Johnson: 13:22

Well, I think there's also something where people, it's not just about, you know, my dream. So it has to be, if it's a god sized dream, it has to be more than just one of us to accomplish this, right? It's not really all just about me and this dream. It's about all of us together. What? How do we start out on that trajectory? I've seen so many people that are concerned with legacy at the end of their their life, and they're trying to control things so that they can have a say in something. But how do you set something up from the beginning when it's not just about what you want to control at the end, but it's about giving things away from from the beginning to make it a god dream and not just a good idea for me? Wow.

Mark Batterson: 14:07

Well, I'll, I'll make it personal many, many years ago, probably two decades ago, kind of came up with a list of 100 life goals, but when I went back and looked at them, I was a little surprised how selfish some of them were, and I made two changes. One is I added a relationship component to almost every dream. So instead of doing a triathlon, let me do a triathlon with one of my kids. Instead of swimming the Escape from Alcatraz by myself, let me do it with one of my kids. Instead of just going to the top of the Eiffel Tower, how about if I kiss my wife on the top of the Eiffel Tower, that's way better. So adding a relational element and and I, literally, I say this so often, if it's not a win for you, it's not a win for me, like I really want to operate out of a win win. Too many people have a zero sum game mindset. And Joshua, even you know this as a coach, the greatest athletes aren't competing against the other team. They're always competing with themselves, like they're trying to become the best version of themselves. And then the other thing I did with those life goals is, instead of getting goals, I flipped it and set giving goals. Now you. Here's here's the reality, if you're going to give away X number of dollars, you probably are going to have to make a certain multiple of that, but it changes the motivation. And so, you know, one of our goals, my wife and I, is to reverse ties someday, and that would be living off a 10% and giving 90% because you don't take it with you. And so I think, you know, there might be something very practical. There is we're setting goals, let's make sure, or as we're dreaming, let's make sure that we're adding value to other people, that it's a win for everybody. And it's kind of this rising tide floats all boats, so to speak.

Joshua Johnson: 16:15

But if you're in the boat and you're trying to get to the other side a lot of times, you know, if you want to actually swim from Alcatraz all the way back to the land, you're going to be in the middle of that water, and you're going to try to look back, you can't see anything. You're gonna try to look forward. You can't see anything. And you're like, what did I get myself into? I'm in the middle of of the ocean, and I don't know what I'm doing, and you just keep going. And you keep going. So when we can't see, like, what's ahead, we can't see what's behind, and we're in the middle of it, the really messy middle, yeah. What do we do to keep going? What do we do with putting one foot in front of the other? How does this work for us?

Mark Batterson: 16:56

Yeah, well, I might zoom out and kind of big picture, maybe even put my pastor hat on, because I like asking this question, what percentage of your thoughts and words, actions and reactions are a regurgitation of the news you're watching or the social media you're consuming. In other words, are you overly influenced by trending hashtags? Because if you are, you're going to trend towards groupthink, popular opinion, peer pressure, political correctness are going to be the order of the day, or what percentage of your thoughts and words, actions and reactions are a revelation you're getting from God's word. Like, I want to make sure that I'm taking my cues from scripture, which for me, is the final authority in matters of faith and doctrine. So that's my, I mean, that's my epistemology in a nutshell, that I've given God veto power, and I believe His Word is inspired. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to live according to that word. So that's a, you know, when you're in the middle of the mess, you really have to, well, there's probably a couple of other things. And I this is, this is thinking on the fly. And it's fun to think on the fly. You better make sure that you've got true north, that you understand, that you have this internal compass, that I have certain convictions. For example, I want to be famous in my home. Well, it's hard to be famous in your home if you're never home. And so what I had to do years ago was establish boundaries that all only do seven overnight speaking trips a year, because if I, if I do more than that, I'm going to be spread so thin that the most important people in my life, will get the leftovers. And the problem with that is this, I have a definition of success. Success is when those who know you best respect you most, and that's my wife and my kids. So so it's like when, when the compass needle is spinning and you're in the middle of the mess, you need to stay centered and then. And then, I'd also say, You better fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who, for the joy that was set before Him, endured the cross, scorning its shame. Like I would say, Keep on. Keeping on. Keep calm and carry on, like so much of life and leadership. I don't care if we're talking about marriage or or when a team loses a couple of games in a row and confidence is shaken like man, you got to go back to basics. You got to go back to practicing the right things, doing the right things, the inputs, and then trusting those those outcomes, so that that would be kind of my initial take, and I would be interested, like, hearing what I just said, like, what, what's going through your

Joshua Johnson: 19:59

mind? Yeah, it's convictions, but I think it's values. For me, it's like, what are the values and those things are going to drive who I am, what I'm doing, where I'm going. I think when you you have either a monetary goal or, like, a building goal or, you know, something you could steamroll so many people if they're if values don't actually drive the day. Yeah.

Mark Batterson: 20:22

Do you have, like, with the teams that you coach? Do you occasionally have like, a theme or. Mantra, or, you know, like I wrote a book a few years ago called win the day, and truth be told, I mean, I got that title from a bunch of football programs that, you know, they use that little mantra, win, win the day and, and so, just out of curiosity, because then I have a thought, because I we produce all kinds of T shirts or swag that put our values on a shirt. Like, I mean, the shirt I'm wearing under this says criticized by creating it's a Michelangelo. It's one of our core values, like, don't just take pot shots at culture. Like, write a better book, produce a better film, make better music, start better businesses. So, but, but I'm curious, like, how have you done that with your teams?

Joshua Johnson: 21:15

I think it's those sort of things. It's those values that live the day. So, you know, it's the little things that you say all the time. You know, you do the little things, right? Big things will happen. You know, it's something what you just said before. But those little things, those are the things that you instill in your players, those are the things they'll remember, and it's what they do in the middle of the game, go, oh, okay, I get that. I had a friend who won the NCAA Tournament in golf. He won the US amateur, US amateur Publix, but his his college coach, his golf coach, it was all it was over and over is, finished strong, finished strong. And it was, so it was the, you know, 18th hole. He had more birdies on the 18th hole than anybody else. That's because it was finished strong. And that's, you know, that's what it came so those are the things that are really important that drive you when you're in the middle of it, yeah, yep, love it. You know, one of the things that you talk about here is that bracciostochrome curve, and I think that right there is, you know, from the beginning, it really highlights what gradually, then suddenly is, and what momentum looks like. And I, lot of people love the suddenly, right? We think the dreams are just going to happen. We don't like the gradually, but these, these are long term things to get to the suddenly, yeah, take us through that curve and take us into the place. So you can just give us a bigger picture of gradually than suddenly.

Mark Batterson: 23:46

Yeah, I'm about to record the audio book, and I knew when I put in that curve, I'm like, I'm gonna regret it, because I'm gonna have to say it about 10 times. It's a mouthful.

Joshua Johnson: 23:59

It is a mouthful. I had to go look up how to say it. I had to practice it like I'm gonna say it once. That was it.

Mark Batterson: 24:07

You did it better than I can even do it so but it is kind of a fun the yes, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, but it's not the fastest route. There's actually a curve and and I think there's an application to life that Well, I even share the story in the book about the first time I dunked a basketball. It was with a cast on my ankle, and it's because I thought it was a setback, but it was a setup like I had to hop around for weeks on end on one leg, and that one leg became so strong after doing that that I was able to literally dunk a basketball with a cast on the other foot. So it's this idea of, listen, sometimes those setbacks are actually a blessing in disguise and but we only tend to see it looking back, not looking forward or in the in the moment. But the obstacle is not the enemy. The obstacle is the way you have to kind of fight your way through it. You know, at the end of the day, usually success is well managed failure. So you have to be really, really good at kind of processing that. So I think that curve is, is just part of life. I mean, if you look at someone like Joseph, for example. I mean, 13 years, it goes from bad to worse. I mean, he's trafficked, sold into slavery by his brothers, you know, ends up in prison on a false accusation. I mean, it is not looking good, but all of it is this incredible setup and and he has the wherewithal. Genesis, 5020, you intended to harm me, but God intended it for good, the saving of many lives. So it's this idea that listen, simply put, overnight success is an oxymoron, like it doesn't exist. It usually is 20 years in the making, as Sam Walton is purported to have said, as it relates to Walmart. But it really is true of everything. The people who really succeed at things love, gradually. Love in fact. Do you know? When John Wooden retired, he was asked what he missed most, and it wasn't the championships, it wasn't hoisting the trophy, it wasn't he said, practice, that's what he missed the most, and that whether whether you're a musician or an athlete or an academic, like, there's something to be said there, that it's this intrinsic motivation you love practicing your craft, whatever that is, and getting better and better at it.

Joshua Johnson: 27:03

Yeah, he missed telling his players how to put on socks the proper way. That's what he missed. One of the quotes that you have in your book you, which goes along with what you just said, is, if someone makes something look easy, I guarantee it isn't. Effortlessness is evidence of extra effort. It's not an easy thing, right? We got some effort into it for people, when you're thinking about God dreams, I think some people spiritualize their dreams in such a way where they're like, I don't need to put any effort in. This is God's gonna do it. And, you know, I'm just gonna let God do it. So what do we have to do in the middle of these God dreams? Like, what is our role and responsibility and what's God's role and responsibility,

Mark Batterson: 27:53

right? Well, I think true wisdom has two sides. Job, 11, six, and I think you have to pray like it depends on God, but you also have to work like it depends on you, that God has a way of honoring blood, sweat and tears, that effort matters. I think when you loving God with all of your strength, I take that very literally, that it involves a caloric output. So yesterday, I think I am training for a bike century. So I bike 45 miles, burned about 4000 calories, and I feel like I'm loving God with all of my strength when I'm on that bike, like literally, I'm using my energy to do something that I think is significant. And there's a way to do that that you can glorify God. If scripture says, whether you eat or drink, do it all to the glory of God, that tells me kind of everything is is on the table. One of my all time favorite quotes is that Dorothy Sayers, and she said, I dare say that no ill fitted drawers or crooked table legs ever came out of the carpenter shop in Nazareth. And it's this idea that long before Jesus was teaching parables or doing miracles, He was crafting furniture. And I've got to think that he crafted beautiful, well made, long lasting furniture. So I just think whatever you're doing. It deserves kind of your best effort. And I, you know, if someone is pulling shots at a coffee shop, a barista and you can tell they're putting some effort, putting some love into it. You can tell, I mean, I, I think it tastes better. We have some some friends who are on the garbage truck that come by about once a week. And I was out there with we have one grandson who's just a year old, and he, you know, for him, dump truck or garage or garbage trucks or or moving trucks are like the coolest thing on the planet. And we were out there, and he was just waving to him, and you could tell, like, I don't know, like, is that? Is that a dream job? Like, kind of getting your hands dirty with with garbage? I don't know if that's a dream job, but, man, this guy who does it is so nice and so good, and it's been so gracious to us. I'm like, okay, like, I just, I think it's, it's doing whatever you do in a way that that you understand you're, you're honoring God with your effort.

Joshua Johnson: 30:47

One of the most impactful funerals I ever went to is a guy who died in this early 50s. He was a forklift driver. There were so many people that came to his funeral, and he made such an impact on people's lives, because it was about doing things with excellence and about the people around him. And he poured his life into people while he was doing whatever job he was doing with excellence. And that's, I mean, that's what it is. So what's, what's your shirt say, criticize by creating, by creating. Criticized by creating. So what are you creating? What? What? What is happening through your church, or the influence that the church has had that actually sees some, some creation that these, there's some God dreams that are happening. What? What's going on, what's been created, what is like? Where are we going?

Mark Batterson: 31:35

Yeah, well, Washington, DC is an interesting place to pastor. I'll say that right out of the gate. But we're not just trying to build a church. We're trying to bless a city. And so, you know, we may be able to touch a few 1000 people every weekend, but really it's about doing things to the third and fourth generation. So couple of examples, like we bought a we bought a crack house and turned it into ebenezer's Coffee House. And every penny of profit we give to Kingdom causes that we care about and and that includes a DC Dream Center, which was an abandoned apartment building and invested more than$5 million mayor came out and cut that ribbon. And it's a place where we're 64 programs run out of that DC Dream Center. Because if you want to change a city, you've got to go upstream and start with kids. And so those would be a couple of examples just doing things serving our city. And that could be Listen, cleanup projects, to outreaches that, you know, an Easter egg hunt that we do, but it a church that stays within its four walls, isn't a church at all. So we've always wanted to kind of be in our city. One of our core convictions is that God will bless us in proportion to how we give to missions and care for the poor in our city. So this year, we'll take 17 mission trips, and we'll give $4 million to missions. Now we weren't doing that 29 years ago. 29 years ago, we gave a $50 check and thought to ourselves, like we cannot afford this, but we started kind of prioritizing, how do we serve others and and that would include any church that's planted in our city. We want to be financial shareholders in it, because it's not about the name over the church door. It's about the name above all names. So it's, it's kind of this mindset where you're playing the long game. And I think when you play the long game, you realize that, Well, for starters, every pastor is an interim pastor. I mean, I've had the joy of serving in a lead role for 29 years, but I'm still an interim pastor, even if I get to do it for 50 years. So it's, it's kind of that mindset of, let's not complain about things. Let's make a difference. So when our city is kind of immigration conversations, and I, you know, I don't have political or legislative solutions. That's not the hat I wear. But there was a season where we were caring for about 65% of the refugees in the DMV. So like, I think Scripture says, care for the stranger, love the stranger and and now, now I know immediately, then people have seven follow up questions, and I get it, it's not, not complicated, but I feel like we want to be more known for what we're for than what We're against, and that means sometimes just letting your feet do some of the talking.

Joshua Johnson: 34:55

I think that's right, and I think we need to care, and we need to care well, you know, my wife and I work with war refugees for many years in the Middle East, so we were there, and I'll give you our dream as we went over to the Middle East, and we said we dreamed that within our lifetime, movements of Muslims following Jesus would sweep across the Arab world, transforming it from within. And, you know, that's, that's a big God sized dream, like, I can't do that by myself. My wife and I can't do it by with each other. We can't do it with one little team. It's going to take God and a spirit moving in ways that are well beyond us. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things is, you know our the first you know refugee that came to know, know Jesus had a dream of Jesus was was great. A lot of great things happened through her. But it was when her, her daughter, about six years later, came to know Jesus and said, our family as well, and my kids were going to follow Jesus. And I, I finally, I just realized that it's not just that one little generation, but it is now the generation that comes after her is affected. And then now that her kids, so the generation after her is affected. And this goes generationally deep and not just wide. How can we, you know, you're talking about a long legacy here. How can we have generational thinking like this is generational movement. You look all throughout the Bible, things happen generationally, and not just in one, you know, setting, but it was generation after. Generation, what is like having a generational mindset look like,

Mark Batterson: 37:21

yeah, I love, I love the question. Because we were so short sighted. We're so myopic. We kind of, we live in news cycles and political cycles and so, you know, our we kind of root our thinking in Jeremiah 29 where the Israelites, Jewish people, are in exile in Babylon. And Hananiah, false prophet, says you're only going to be there two years. You know, wouldn't that be great? But the problem is, is, if you have a two year mindset, you don't even unpack your suitcase like you rent the city but, but Jeremiah comes along and says, No, you're going to be there 70 years. So you better plant gardens and build houses. Now, what's interesting is the average lifespan in that time was 35 so 70 years is thinking, you know, out to that second and third generation and so literally, like when we bought we bought a city block on Capitol Hill. And I mean it, we didn't have a category for a $29.3 million building, let alone a city block. It was bigger than our vision, but, but not if you think in terms of three and four generations like what we realize is that all we're trying to do is set up the next generation. We drink from wells we didn't dig, and so we better dig some wells for the next generation. And so it really is this mindset, and I think, honestly, well, tell, let me, I'll ask you the question, don't you? Don't you think it seems like we're getting worse and worse at long term consequential thinking, because timeframes have become so shortened that it just seems like we're making decisions kind of based on this quarter's numbers or or this season's win loss record, instead of that long term. I think there's a question in there somewhere.

Joshua Johnson: 39:33

Well, I think one of the things you're saying is that time feels like it's been sped up lately? Yes. And so, because we have a barrage of information, and we have a new thought and new information coming in all the time, we think, okay, if I respond to that, that'll be fine. And then then after, respond to the next thing. And so that's, it's going to be difficult for us to to get out of this barrage of information in this, you know, attention economy that we have, that it's all about the attention we give. And if it is an attention economy, then we have to give the attention back to God and give back to God. What is God's which is time and time, right, emanates from him. It doesn't emanate from our news feed. It doesn't emanate from our social media feed. It emanates from God. And so that's what we're giving back, and that's where the attention starts to go. Is that long term thing? But that is, that is the difficult thing for people and for all of us, right?

Mark Batterson: 40:33

Yeah, you know it's, it's funny Joshua, because I it would have been easier to write a like, I'm trying to think of the opposite of gradually, then suddenly like it. It probably would be more popular to write like two minutes to financial independence or or two days to accomplish your dreams. It's not reality. I just am more and more convinced there are no shortcuts. There aren't any cheat codes. And in fact, the people that experience success too quickly sometimes there isn't really the character to kind of support that kind of success, and you know, then what happens is, it goes to your head and and it kind of blows up your ego. And so I look back on it, and, yeah, we've had the joy of leading a church for 29 years that the that God has blessed but, but, you know, I share the story in the book about our first attempt at church planning was a failure, and it was so embarrassing and disorienting when it happened, but I look back on it and I'm like, Oh, what a gift. What a gift to experience that kind of failure in my early 20s, because then you're not you're not tempted to take credit for things you shouldn't be taking credit

Joshua Johnson: 42:00

for. In your book, you you're talking about this. You're talking about the order of the mustard seed, count, sense and dwarf the Moravians, what they're doing, and you make a correlation between the understory of what's happening underneath and then the overstory. And you know, we see this within. Nature within forests as well. You know, trees, you have what's going on up top, but the stuff underneath is really where the magic happens. And, you know, the roots are being formed. And you talk in there that really, it's about consecrating ourselves to God. Is the thing that's going to, you know, propel us into that place. Can you just talk about maybe the Moravians there order the mustard seed and consecration and the importance of consecration?

Mark Batterson: 42:45

Yeah, well, they they started 100 year prayer meeting, 24/7 and it's hard to calculate kind of all of the cultural impact that that had but pretty, pretty profound, yes. So I think part of what you know, part of what I'm trying to get at there is like we need to have long vision, and long vision, by definition, can't be accomplished in your lifetime. And so how are we dreaming into something that's bigger and longer here in all I'll make it really practical, like I think we are so often discouraged or disheartened by news. I mean, take a week, any week, and something happened that's absolutely devastating, a shooting over here or a tragedy over there. And because social media, which is kind of like the tree of knowledge that I don't think we have the emotional or intellectual capacity to know about everything that's happening all the time everywhere, like it just we. We aren't created that way. And so what happens is we become overwhelmed by the latest headline and but, but Joshua, that's the understory. That's the understory. The overstory is the kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ. Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess to the glory of God, the Father that Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of lords. There's no other name under heaven, given unto men by which we can be and must be saved. And guess what? Every nation, tribe, people, language, will worship around that throne. Come on church, that the day is coming that there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain. You have got to keep locked and loaded on that over story. And that's true of our lives. Like, I mean, we get in our heads and we overthink, whether it's like I had a bad game or we had a bad day as a married couple, or anything in between. Like, you can get so locked in that little understory that then you forget, kind of the overstory in the big picture. So I think part of the part of gradually, then suddenly, is, let's, let's zoom out, widen the aperture, wide angle lens, get a little bit of perspective. I mean, I even poke at something. CS Lewis said that between every new book you read, you better read an old one, otherwise you become a captive to the spirit of the age. And so even in that like, if we aren't careful, we get trapped in these news cycles, or we get trapped in mindsets or world views that are Johnny Come Lately, instead of really understanding the meta narrative, kind of the grand narrative of Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation,

Joshua Johnson: 46:14

it's so important to live into The God story, this metanarrative, and we know it, that really transforms the way that we live in our lives. Mark, if you had one hope for your readers of gradually, then suddenly, what hope would you have for your readers?

Mark Batterson: 46:30

You know, I would love it if, if as as people are reading the book, that the spirit would do what the Spirit does, and just give God ideas. Like, Good ideas are good, but God ideas change the course of history. So I think there are so many inspirational stories, stories that I've drawn tremendous courage and inspiration from. Like, I mean, one of my favorites, how do we not even talk about Amos Alonzo Stagg, you know, the legendary coach, won two national championships, coached until he was 98 years old, and was asked the question like, you know, by a reporter. How he felt about how successful his season was, he says, oh, no, no, ask me in 20 years, because that's when I'll see how my players turned out. It, you know, I'm hoping that, whether you're a coach or an entrepreneur, full time mom or dad, whatever, whatever it is, like your blue collar, your white collar, that doesn't matter. I think it's about understanding that we're something, a part of something that's bigger and better and longer and take take this to heart. God is always writing a bigger story. I remind myself of that all the time, and so I think, I think it's a book that will encourage long vision, long obedience, and hopefully net a long legacy.

Joshua Johnson: 48:08

Two quick questions at the end here, I like to ask one, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice

Mark Batterson: 48:13

would you give enjoy the journey. I'll just every age, every stage, enjoy the journey

Joshua Johnson: 48:19

that's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend,

Mark Batterson: 48:24

oh, my goodness, I have been deep diving AI, both the practitioner side and the theory side, and the unintended consequences or implications of where that could take us? Yeah, I'm not a particularly technical guy. In fact, I'll even say I've never used AI to help me do any of my writing, which is kind of mind boggling, because the truth is, are there any students left that aren't using AI to help them with an assignment? But I and so I like reading. I like reading about the everything from science astrophysics to trees to history to biography. Just read River of Doubt, another Teddy Roosevelt biography. So I that's a hard question for me, because I, like, I have this diet of, like, biography, history, science and theology, and I just every ology is a branch of theology. So I kind of like putting all of that in the in the Vitamix, if you will.

Joshua Johnson: 49:36

That's great. Well, gradually, then suddenly, it's out everywhere, beginning November mark. This book is fantastic. As you said, there's so many inspirational stories in this book. It is fantastic. I love to going through it. I'm excited to read it again with other people. To invite people to dream and dream god sized dreams. How would you like to point people to to get the book? Is there anywhere they'd like to point people to as well?

Mark Batterson: 50:04

Yeah, probably if, if folks pop over to Mark batterson.com there's a free sample chapter. But then a lot of resources and things that are, I just want to add value. Whether you get the book or not, you'll find resources there that I think can help you in your spiritual journey, but also in that gradually, then suddenly journey and and then I'm on social Instagram. X. Mark Batterson,

Joshua Johnson: 50:34

all right. Well, Mark, thank you for this conversation. It was fantastic. Hopefully you're going to go and practice bratchas chrome curve, and you could be able to say the word, you'll get it down as you read the audio. But I really enjoyed connecting with you, sharing dreams and seeing what God could do. So this is fantastic.

Mark Batterson: 50:53

Thanks so much. Joshua, God bless. Yeah. You.